In spite of the other errors in your post, I'm assuming that one of them was not your decision to vote?The1fifi wrote:Vote fhqw(something) For having such annoying name to vote on
Mini 917 -- Precision Mafia (Game Over)
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<3 Cobalt <3
My take on the issue is a little different. Let me clarify.
See, the reality is that both town and scum need points to function. Uselessly wasting points is poor play regardless of your alignment.
What's missing from this analysis is the context. Others (including the Mod, I believe) had implicitly or explicitly said that conserving points was scummy. Since I think that minimal honest introspection would have shown that that rhetoric was a half-truth at best (at least, that was my experience), I think fifi's decision to use CP was motivated by an attempt to (!) appear town.- Iecerint
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J.R. -- you have literally restated my point, except that you've ignored the context a bit and thereby demoted it a bit to 2TOWN4TOWN, which I don't think is all it is.
I do not think it is necessarily a good idea to have everyone talk in detail about their intuitions about the usefulness of using CP. I suspect that doing so would expose PRs.
Having stated that, though -- we have to either make everyone use all their CP, or conserve CP. Low CP only disproportionately negatively affects scum if they don't have any points at all. I suspect that the set-up is designed to punish game-breaking, though, so I'm inclined to conserve CP. I also think it'd make for a more interesting game.- Iecerint
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I think the scenarios in the pre-game Mod posts indicate that a lynch cannot be stopped by overvoting. If everyone goes into PR debt some day, the lynch will happen as usual, but all night actions will fail. Please correct me if you understand differently.- Iecerint
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OK by me. But, given that, did you just claim scum with the Imperial chant? Or Selvaria - SK?Cruciare wrote:(Can we still pretend that it's Valkyria Chronicles Mafia? =P)
1fifi's comeback post does nothing to change my opinion of him. Should add that I only stay in RVS until I see any kind of case on someone; your behavior qualified.- Iecerint
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I wish I knew how to interpret fifi's tone.- Iecerint
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Is there an optimal number we would have fifi waste such that it effectively nerfs scum while minimally nerfing town? My expectation is that this sort of technique will be unproductive, but it's probably worth at least the mathematical exercise.- Iecerint
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Well, obviously no one would want him to burn them, but he still would. If he didn't, we'd just lynch him. Right? Otherwise, this would be a very abuseable system.
If fifi flips scum, and a NK does not occur, that would imply that fifi used 10 CP and other scum used enough daytime CP to eliminate their night actions. If we assume 3 scum, one of whom is a commander (12 points total), that would mean at least 2 actions other than fifi's took place.
I was assuming that the extra CP would be used to be on fifi's wagon, but I suppose it could come from other sources. Either way, to the extent that dayCP use is public, the point is that we'd be able to figure things out.
This presupposes that the commander's extra 3 CP apply to their team rather than themselves. Maybe I should ask the Mod for clarification on that point, unless it's in the rules and I just can't remember, etc.
Yes, all Commander bonus points apply to the party, not just the individual.- Iecerint
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(Flipside is that given fifiScum and an NK does occur, the scum would have to be off the wagon. That, or scum have tons of Commanders, but that would seem to contradict the Mod's pre-game speculation.)- Iecerint
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Back.
I love long days.
Cobalt's purported "scum commander claim" from fifi is improbable IMO. Regardless of fifi's alignment, his post is just subjunctive mood fail. It's a language barrier issue; not a scumslip issue. I still (improbable though it may be) think fifi is the scummiest one in the room, though.
I had in my head that the Commanders gave +3 bonus CP (i.e. double the CP of a typical player), but it looks like that number was only used as an example. So that makes half-lynching (who came up with that jargon? it's not very descriptive) more difficult to pull off, maybe. We could always start low and work up, though. It's better than leaving free CP to rot.- Iecerint
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My supposition is that town probably has an abundance of CP. (My guess is that scum has 0-1 commanders and town has 1-2 commanders. Otherwise, the Mod's pre-game speculation that reluctance to use CP might look scummy would not make sense.) Given that abundance of CP, I think that using a bunch of CP to potentially narrow down scum D2 would be a fairly wise use of CP, especially since unused CP doesn't carry over to subsequent days.
I should confess that I skimmed the last page or so before my post. It started to look a little vacuous. So if his plan was amended somewhere in there, I may've missed it. I should also add that I think we should slightly favor killing whoever just wasted the CP, in the interest of saving CP (i.e. CP is no longer abundant after you've potentially wasted however many points of it). This problem wouldn't exist if everyone was disciplined about FoS's, though.
Another thing I should point out is that when I indicated my disappointment that it wouldn't be VC mafia per se pre-game, the Mod indicated to me which VC character my role would have been had this remained a VC-themed game. This makes me wonder whether the roles in this game are just ciphers of VC characters (e.g. whether he made VC mafia, and then de-flavored the roles to broaden the appeal of the game). I'm not sure that too much speculation in this direction would be fruitful (might just distract from other issues), but it is potentially something to keep in mind as we see a few more flips.- Iecerint
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VC is Valkyria Chronicles. That's where the CP stuff comes from; it's a combat mechanic from the franchise. This game was originally a VC theme game, but the Mod decided to broaden the theme out of worry that VC was too obscure. That information can be found in the queue.
I didn't explicitly request permission to share it, if that's what you mean, but I have no reason to believe I've done anything naughty. The tone of the correspondence was "Hey, since you're a VC fan, you'd be X given Y." It was really parenthetical. For all I know, he was just injecting some custom flavor on the basis of my stated interest.
If you're rather asking whether it's wise to disclose the information for strategic reasons, I certainly think it is, yes. Scum are already in a position to make those kinds of generalizations because they presumably have access to one another's roles.- Iecerint
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I'm not sure I understand. Do commanders have access to residual CP totals after each night phase?- Iecerint
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I think we're potentially OK to use CP today. Assuming that the Commanders are aware of how much extra CP they generate, producing a baseline is unnecessary. As such, the baseline is only useful to players who are not the Commander, but the Commander must reveal himself to make the baseline known to them. So I don't understand the need to establish a baseline CP D1. Assuming the Commander is competent at counting, choosing some burners should help us out today.
I do like the rest of your plan, though 3 burners may be superfluous. At the very least, we should lower the number of burners as the number of players drops.
Let me know if I am missing something critical.- Iecerint
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I don't know whether they do or not. I am assuming that they do, because I think it would be confusing to receive a PM that indicates "you give your team extra CP" without a numerical designation.
Even if they do not, we could account for that by having a smaller pool of players make comparatively large burns today. That would make the presence of a non-town burner relatively unambiguous. Hell, we could even just have 1 player do it to an absurd degree. That would make for an extra cop shot at relatively little risk (i.e. really absurd Commander bonuses could still mess this up).- Iecerint
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It's relatively straightforward now that we're on page 9, but the whole CP concept would have been shakier at the pre-game stage, and especially without other players to bounce ideas off of. Had I made this set-up, I would have kept it as simple as possible to minimize the number of questions I would need to field.
But yeah, it's possible that they don't know. Another potential confound is a second town Commander, come to think of it.- Iecerint
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Working from the VCmafia-cipher hypothesis, 1 town Commander is the most plausible, but there could potentially be a 2nd Commander given the flavor. I could also imagine the Mod including a second Commander to increase total town CP (consistent with his pre-game talk) and/or to reduce risk of CP loss to town (as lucky loss of the one Commander would totally warp the intended CP balance in scum's favor, which may play against the intended tone of the game).
That is pure speculation, but it was the basis of my suggestion. I still think trying to do something with the spare CP is a good plan.
I have no problems with the newest version of the plan, really.- Iecerint
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We're doing 1-2 players today either way. We need to allow whoever we choose to waste enough points such that the Commanders will be certain they aren't just imagining a disparity due to hypothetically not knowing how many extra CP they produce, not to mention the added spooky effects of other PRs.- Iecerint
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The fewer burners there are today, the easier it will be for Commanders to determine whether the burner(s) were scum tomorrow.
1 burns 14 -- can reasonably estimate whether CP reflects 14 lost points
2 burn 7 -- can probably reasonably estimate whether CP reflects 7 lost points
3 burn 4 -- can't do it
I think we're OK so long as we only have 1-2 burners today. Sure, there's some risk involved, but the payoff is definitely worth it. I doubt the town Commander bonus is so extreme that 14 would be ambiguous, for example. It's also possible that the Commander knows his own bonus, in which case the ambiguity will be low.
I think we should lynch fifi and have Alma or Cobalt burn.- Iecerint
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I don't understand. We know that we each give 3 CP as a base. Assuming 9 town, that's 27 CP. Then the Commander gives an extra X CP, probably no more than 6 or so.
Lynching someone takes 7 CP.
Burning takes however many CP we want it to take. Let's say 12.
Some of the idiots who already voted might be town, too. Let's say we waste 3 more CP in there somewhere.
We enter night having at least 5 CP to spend, and that's pretending the town Commander has no bonus (extremely remote).
Basically, if we end up with 0-10 CP, the burner was town. If we end up with 12-22 CP, the burner was scum. Granted, there's a hazy space in the middle, but I'd rather potentially clear someone or find scum than just sit on my CP pile.
If I am missing some self-evident reason why this isn't worth it, please explain it with an example.- Iecerint
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I cannot believe you just shot him. That is an utterly fail usage of your ability. The only circumstance in which I can justify your behavior to myself is if fifi is scum Commander and you're trying to take the bullet. Otherwise, it literally makes no sense.
Clearly, am waiting on the offchance that SC is scum.
Also, eggplant is delicious.- Iecerint
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That would be fine, provided it is made clear that Commanders need not claim at all unless their result indicates foundscum. We should interpret no news to mean that the player was likely town. Assuming that was implicit in your Countdown Claim, I have no problem with it.
Differences in voting, so long as they aren't totally off-the-wall, will probably be informative in retrospect. I don't see the need to regulate that too stringently. Though clearly the need to use CP to catch scum will lead us to maximally moderate our voting-related CP us.- Iecerint
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fh, if there are multiple town Commanders, my supposition is that neither gives town a ton of CP. For example, 1 Commander probably gives town up to 6, whereas 2 probably give town up to 3. If multiple Commanders are present, their function is probably to spread the risk of any individual Commander being killed.- Iecerint
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It used to be 7 to lynch. Now it's 6 to lynch. That accounts for it still being L-1 IIRC. At any rate, he's equally as close to lynch as before.
I think Alma is a good burn candidate because he's a potential town PR.- Iecerint
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You just shot one of the most helpful players in the game, even though you are voting for a different player in a game where it is costly to vote for players. Your behavior is utterly bizarre and does not match town dayvig behavior. You've also never even attempted to justify your suspicion for Seacore, even in retrospect!
I might keep you around were I scum, if I thought you would carry out a charming repeat performance D2.
If you think someone else is a better burn candidate, you should indicate them. Whining about being seen as scummy, especially after having done something quite scummy, is unbecoming.- Iecerint
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If it's 1 burn, yeah, I guess 8-9 would be fine. It was 12 before, but now we have 3 fewer CP. I think. Actually, come to think of it, if CP is alotted at the start of each day phase, we may still get to use Seacore's CP.
Two burns is possible. It's just pushing it. Other players should probably weigh-in, too.
Do you think Alma is obvtown for having a daykill? How will you respond if he's still alive tomorrow and there's no burn evidence on him?
Who do you want to burn instead?- Iecerint
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Oh, I'd forgotten about him. OK. I can handle him burning.- Iecerint
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I just concisely described the point of burns. Are you still confused? There's no reason it should be confusing.- Iecerint
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Investiburn -- McGriddle would do. Or any of the lurkers.
Lynch - fifi- Iecerint
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I wasn't putting you in the category, necessarily.- Iecerint
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Nah, my semantics were ambiguous. I could have been positing a lurker and then specifying that any lurkers were acceptable, or I could have posited a non-lurker and then specified that any lurkers were acceptable. It's true that I could have been clearer, though.
I wrote it the way I did because whooever's useless/lurker dichotomy between McGriddle and "the lurkers" was in my head. - Iecerint
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