Mini 916 ~ Brrr Mafia. GAME OVER

[Wacky]

Hey everyone,

It's a nice feeling to be back.

Vote: Wacky. For being the only player here with a join date before mine.
What's your experience, Wacky?

I feel so old now... the oldest player is from 2009? I played for a while from 2003 to 2006, but then I needed to stop for a while and before I knew it, a couple of years had past. Unfortunately I don't remember all that much, except that mafia's fun

There seems to stuff on my wiki page, apparently by me, but it's glaringly incomplete so I've put an out of date tag on it.

Now that introductions are out of the way, onto the game:

Jasper, reading mafiascum now it seems like "alts" are a bit of a problem and quite common now. Are you an alt? If so, why? If not, why not?

Also,

Vote: The1fifi

, because I don't like it when people are wishy-washy with their voting. What do you really think of jasper?

[Wacky]

Anyway, vote Seven for being too quiet

@DTMaster

As far as the less townie.. umm..maybe you, for questioning everyone, thus trying to create the maximum havoc possible i believe.

You need to bold your vote. However, I'm inclined to agree with you on DTMaster being the "less townie":

@DTMaster

I appreciate your time in explaining how to play the game to newer players, and direct questioning to generate but I'm beginning to take issue with how you seem to be trying to throw suspicion on anyone and everyone, and I don't think it's beneficial for the town for you to be maintaining many conversation threads. It's distracting and takes away the focus from the discussion.

Are you, perhaps, scum, hoping something will stick, or at least distract everyone for a couple of Days by focusing all their attention on responding to you?

You are, aren't you? If not, would you mind then if I tried to start a bandwagon directing all the attention to you?

Secondary Kill: McZombie

Also, can you stop daykilling people please? It's not making you look any less suspicious, and on the slight, slight chance that you are town it makes you vulnerable to a mafia frame job should anyone on your kill list happen to die (which is bound to happen now that you've "killed" everyone already).

P.S. I asked about alts because a newbie mistake can also be suspicious if it was done by more experienced players. And because alts weren't around back when I played my last game, I have no clue how they'd influence game mechanics.

tl;dr:

Unvote:The1fifi

(Reason: Attempt to bait for scummy reaction failed)

Vote: DTMaster

(Scumtell: Trying Too Hard)

[Wacky]

....what did I say about wishy-washy voting.....

And isn't it a little early to be lurker hunting? Watch out for jbernier, he suspects you even before you've even read the thread. Is it that games have increased in pace since I last played? It used to be that we'd get worried when someone doesn't post in a week.

[Wacky]

@Wacky
1. I wouldn't like it of course (As does anybody), But if you have issues with my posts I'll be happy to defend and scum hunt at once. If you dislike the fact that I'm getting reactions and trying to draw reads from everyone, then you are scum sir.

One way to narrow down the scum list is to find out who reacts townier then the rest. Scum absolutely hates discussion and would rather have tunnel fights because if a mislynch happens on a tunneled person, there less reads on other people.

The fact that I get reactions/actions from everyone puts together a more complete picture then if I just excessively tunnel.

2. How is iff's recation to a "bait" clearing him? Be more explicit:

What is this bait that iffy failed to latch on to that should have catch scum, and what did iffy do to make him townie. In your non td;dr: version I just

read I AGREE WITH IFFY AND WILL NOW WAGON DTM NOW

.

I don't see how you explicitly clear iffy for the time being.

3. I have my own reasons for my kill messages and it is part of my role.

1. I have no issue with getting reactions, I do that sort of thing as well and think it's great. However, I disagree with you on that "tunnel fight" comment. I think to find mafia we need them to incriminate themselves. But we're posting over the net, how hard is it to maintain a poker face in normal discussion? A little pressure is required to force errors: mafia may slip up and react badly when staring down a wagon, or if the bandwagonee is town they have a dilemma in whether to play the hero and defend the bandwagonee, or jump in and get them lynched.

And what you're doing isn't so much asking question, you keep insinuating things with every "question".

Side note: for this reason I do not find Jee's actions so far to be particularly interesting, because it's just part and parcel of trying to fake out mafia. It's just that we started off with day so no-one paying attention should be falling for it.

Well, except maybe DTM, because he's mafia and figured that since jee wasn't mafia, he must have a cop role.....?

Not that I want to be clearing anyone at this stage, but I'll make a mental note to myself of "if DTM mafia then jee scumminess -5" (you guys can add "and Wacky not mafia" to that)

2. If iffy said something like, "I think Jasper is town" then I would have jumped on him. (But he actually said that he just didn't know.) Or if he had gone and said something stupidly suspicious. Instead my vote just got ignored. That's no fun.

Also I'm not clearing him, I just don't care about him right now because you're just looking too suspicious, especially with all those daykilling stuff on top.

Also, I think you're misconstruing things with "read I AGREE WITH IFFY AND WILL NOW WAGON DTM NOW". While it's true I did agree with iffy and do really, really want to WAGON DTM NOW, but my post was a lot more detailed than iffy's.

3.

I. Don't. Believe. You.

Because I've faked a post restriction as mafia before, and because this is supposed to be a normal game.

I suppose I could wait till day 2 and see if any roles revealed are vanilla or flying pumpkin-esque, but you forgot to kill anyone in post #23. Can't you stop now?

[Wacky]

@Jason/Jniper
Actually

my kills

are quite necessary, but only when the time is right.

3. No it's not a post restriction. Yes it's important for me to do this because I made it so.

....huh? It's necessary but it isn't?

You said you disliked my Jee vote, but why aren't you even commenting or attacking my reasoning because of this? I explained by the fact that Jee could have had day investigation role and I would rather use an Inverno bandwagon to see if Jee was complacent to let his wagon go forward.

Let me spell it out for you then. Spelling it out probably benefits mafia but since we seem to have newbies it's probably necessary.

Going by the opening post which reveals the standard PM for a vanilla townie. The implication is that this is a vanilla game. Very simple vanilla game, with vanilla cops, vanilla docs, vanilla non-daykilling vigilantes, vanilla deputies, and vanilla mafia.

Except it's not obvious to vanilla mafia that this is a vanilla game. So they make up some stuff about

Kill: people

for whatever reason, and assume that jee must be a day investigation cop (Because, you know.... what else could he be, voting for someone like that on day 1?) and hey look! A flying pumpkin with a one-shot tracker ability and a two shot LASER ability!

It's just very improbable. A day investigation cop is improbable. A post-restricted-vig is similarly improbable. A mafia that messed up a fakeclaim.... not so improbable.

Finally:

@Wacky

2. So you aren't voting me now why? If you agree with Iffy, and you don't think my accusations are sound, you either think I'm scum or you have other suspicions running around.

If it's the former: it just looks like you admitted you didn't want to look bad to join in on this wagon. If it's the latter: I see more DTM attacks then: "Yoh I think Y is more scummier then X".

I

am

voting you. Please check earlier vote count.

DTMaster 1: (Wacky)

In case there was any doubt, here is where I'm at:

Confirm vote DTMaster

Current

FOS

List:

- The1fifi, wishy washy voting and then late to the jee bandwagon.
- jbernier93, although I'm not sure why myself. Maybe not then.

[Wacky]

This seems WIFOM to me. Playstyles vary incredibly, DTM's way of seeking scum is just as valid as bandwagoning. It gets discussion going and that's what matters. If I'd gotten into the game sooner you'd be telling me what you're telling DTM right now because I'd probably have used the same tactic. I think this is a null-tell.

Mulling about it, and to be fair, I have to concede that a lot of my case against DTMaster is built on rather shaky logic. And I should probably respond on discussion other than on DTM issues since it seems to be all I write on lately, but there's just this one thing I can't let slide:

Before:

2. I have to type some form of Kill actually , every so often. I agree, it is distracting but there is a reason that I'm doing it outside my norm.

@Jason/Jniper
Actually my kills are quite necessary, but only when the time is right.

3. I have my own reasons for my kill messages and it is part of my role.

After:

Lol, since when did I say I have a post restriction. Me bolding and referencing to kill is part of my role, but

After that:

So you never heard of people:
1. Using Kill as a method to gain reactions for different players? Hm?

The main reason why I wanted to

Kill

is to generate some attention. I wanted to see some general reactions/actions etc. As you can see above:

@DTMaster:

So, it's

necessary

and you

have

to do it and it's

part of your role

, except you're just trying to

get reactions from players

and the main reason is just to

get some attention

, .... nothing to do with your role at all?

I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing how I can accept any lynch other than you based on the above quotes. If there's a reasonable explanation for all of this, please explain, if I'm taking things out of context, please call me out on it.

but until then

Confirm Vote: DTMaster

[Wacky]

I'll make a start on "people other than DTMaster" tonight with thoughts on Fifi:

- Wishywashy voting. x2.
- First voting for Jasper, then hopped right off immediately after got called on it by inverno
- Second voting for Seven and jumping right off
...make that x3 with the hopping off DTM's wagon

- Seems to follow DTM's lead. x2 (on Jasper, later on Jee)

- Third vote on a bandwagon (see 4th vote count)

- "DTM 100% town" apparently. (n.b. this is a suspicious comment whether or not DTM is town)

Conclusion: Would be the most likely to be mafia if it wasn't for DTMaster contradicting himself on his role.

Good night all.

[Wacky]

@Wacky

Ok fine! I admit it! I was lying

on purpose with the kills to generate discussion in the town. Sheeesssh. It's quite evident that since there was no kills that I wasn't able to kill.
...

4.

I was lying.

However, I do know what I am doing right now and I am playing in this manner for a good reason. I'm not "caught in the headlights". I've been quite clear on who I think is scum and who I think is town based on the current discussion.

(Emphasis mine)

Yay!

Unfortunately Lynch_All_Liars is a long-standing mafiascum tradition which I fervently believe in, and your other actions aren't exactly faultless either IMO.

Please explain everything you can, make your suspicions clearly known and/or roleclaim now.

Thanks.

Wacky ^ ^

P.s. Sorry for pressuring you all this time, it's not personal. You're just suspicious.

[Wacky]

I can't say I mind more discussion before a lynch. Chance are, if DTMaster is mafia then I'm probably not long for this world, so I'd like to get more gaming in before that happens.

But I also think there's plenty of information from Day 1 so far:

1. Plenty of suspicious actions from particular people. The1Fifi is on my FOS list for reasons cited earlier, and

FOS: McZombie

for generally coming in late in bandwagons, and generally only agreeing with people without making any points of his own (I hope you say a bit more Day 2).

2. If DTMaster is mafia (highly likely), then the Jee and Jasper counter-wagons are likely to be scum WIFOM tactics and is worth some attention.

3. Voting patterns on DTM are going to be worth looking at no matter how the result turns out (although the interpretation will obviously be different). Who was comfortable with it? Who wasn't? Who was FOS'ing but not voting for no apparent reason?



----
@The1Fifi

@ Wacky, if you read my posts carefully, you can see i didn't say he was 100% town. Unless you seen it, and decided to twist my words

You're right, I misread that (like a few people). Sorry about that.

You have some real good arguments on DTM, and i felt like jumping on the wagon right after reading them, but on your next post you also have some really good points on me. So i just believe you are pretty good at manipulating what people say, in your favour.

Thank you for the flattering comments. "Persuasive" has a better ring to it than "manipulative" though. I guess it comes with having played mafia heaps before. However, if they're really good points on you, then to just dismiss it since I made them is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem.

Could you rather address the points I was making by explaining your thought processes when doing the suspicious actions in question?

Plus, my wishi washy is part of my playing style, as you will see in future games, and can see in the other games i am atm.

I have even wishy washed in Precision Maifa, which was pretty bad from my part =/

Don't do that....

I keep my vote where it is

Why, do you find Jee particularly suspicious?


n.b. For the newbies: Finding Mafia.

With The1Fifi, I seem to be just ticking items off that list as I go, like a bingo game....

e.g.

"Admitting someone is a townie without saying "IF" (+10) (mafia knows for sure who isn't mafia) "

The whole "don't think DTM will flip scum" thing can be construed as that. I don't think it counts as admitting DTM's a townie though because I don't think DTM is a townie.

"Trying to bus their partners when they realize the lynch of their partner is inevitable. " - wiki

I am so tempted in hammering DTM, but not after seing who put him at L-1

...I can tick that off.

----

@McZombie:

If you have time (Especially over night 1 if it happens), could you do a reread and just have a think about who you would consider to be most suspicious, and why?

[Wacky]

Re: DTMaster's roleclaim:

My role? I am the Vanilla Townie with a Note : It says

trust your insincts and make sure you do a clear reread. The action Kill is going to be a vital part of this game

. My role information is diffrent from the sample one posted. Discuss.

1. .... and why on earth would a PM like that motivate you to go around "Kill"-ing people? "Kill" in bold is normally something that would attract attention, except by using it all day you've turned it into something that could be slipped in by anyone as a joke. Like on the first page:

Oh, I saw bold and assumed vote. Fine then, have it your way.

Airlock: jbnernier93.

I am not singling out Nikanor in any way, but rather saying that DTM's actions don't correlate with his claimed role. Someone who wanted to say [ b]Kill: Wacky[/b], could now easily slip in a "DTM has been like [ b]Kill: Wacky[/b] all day, lol".

2. .... Doesn't that mean you were lying when you admitted you were lying about how it had nothing to do with your role?

1.Wacky: Lynch all Liars argument = you won't listen to my reasoning. Aka you are set in stone.

You're right unfortunately. The lying thing, and the general feeling I get about you is already enough that very little will convince me to stop pushing for your lynch. All I'm trying to achieve now is make sure everyone's reactions are captured to prepare for Day 2 discussion.

It's not rushing to a lynch, it's that we've identified scummy that we find scummy enough to lynch. If you find that early, then there's no reason to drag the day out just because you have time before the deadline.

/agree. When I was playing mafia, imposed deadlines was just something the mod put in when the game started to drag. As long as everything that needed to be said has been said, there's no reason to drag the game out. All it'll mean is that people lose interest in the game, which only benefits scum.

Now, onto people who aren't DTM.

Jee/Regfan.

Am comfortable with. Hasn't done anything suspicious that I can see.... yet. Didn't find the fishing / gambit "vote now, reasons later" thing suspicous, since it would be something I might do as town as well.

Overall Thoughts: Town-ish. Especially if DTM is mafia.

Jasper:

When day 1 started, I turned up to the thread, saw only one post, thought about who to random vote... but I didn't know any of the players, so what's the point? I was actually about to make a post to say hi and introduce myself without random voting, but then I decided I didn't want to be on the receiving end of a Day 1 bandwagon, and just closed the window. Then Jasper turned up, and did the exact same thing....

I haven't observed anything particularly suspicious from him.

Overall Thoughts: Neutral.

Zachrulez

: has only said things that are perfectly reasonable, Is probably an good / experienced player, and hasn't posted any walls of text yet so I can't get any reads.

Overall Thoughts: Neutral.

Echo

: Who's Echo?

Overall Thoughts: Neutral... ish. Needs more posting.

JasonT1981

: Has been very focused on DTM. Which I'd agree with since... I have been too.

Overall Thoughts: Town-ish if DTM is mafia.

Can't tell until DTM flips and Jason says more about other people.

[Wacky]

Analyzing people takes time... which is a luxury for me.

By special request - Nikanor. Notable actions seem to be:
attacking McZombie right at the start and attacking DTM later in the bandwagon.

Mafia attacking fellow mafia early in day 1 as a distancing tactic is common, so if McZombie is mafia, then the chance that Nikanor is mafia with her is actually increased.

Not much can be made out of attacking DTM late in the bandwagon. Both mafia and town would do it for quite obvious reasons.

DTM called for a Jason <-> Nikanor scum link, then voted

Jasper

Jason. I think if DTM is mafia then he would probably have seen writing

by

on the wall, so anything past say... page 5 is likely to be intended to distance fellow mafia in part, the other part being to jump start an alternative choice. so...


TL;DR:

On rereading, I

could

believe a DTM :: McZombie :: Nikanor scum pairing

, but I'd probably need to see McZombie's alignment first before I formed any conclusions. Nikanor's own posts are fairly normal posts with nothing particularly suspicious or unsuspicious.

Overall thoughts: Neutral, but possible scum link to DTM and McZombie.

[Wacky]

Wacky I'd appreciate if you'd do an analysis on McZombie. Currently I believe the three most likely to be mafia being McZombie, Jasper and Nikanor.

Sure, but here's one I prepared earlier:

1. Plenty of suspicious actions from particular people. The1Fifi is on my FOS list for reasons cited earlier, and FOS: McZombie for generally coming in late in bandwagons, and generally only agreeing with people without making any points of

his

her own (I hope you say a bit more Day 2).

State of the game hasn't really changed these past few days and I still suspect her quite a bit. She would be my preferred voting target Day 2.

I've spaced all this stuff out over a RL week, so here are my conclusions for day 1, if it were to end already:

Wacky

= most likely night 1 death if DTM is mafia ^ ^

jbernier93

= slightly scummy - Scum hunted too early

Echo

= I get lurking vibes, but wouldn't bandwagon until he does suspicious things day 2.

Seven

= Same as Echo.

Regfan

jee

= Neutral. I'll just guess town and move on (for now).

Zachrulez

Neon_Appliances

= Neutral. I'll just guess town and move on (for now).

Nikanor

= neutral / preferred day 3 bandwagon after McZombie scum lynch.

McZombie

= preferred day 2 bandwagon. Agrees too much.
DTMaster = ....lynch him already! I want to find out his alignment ...

Jasper

= neutral. Just can't get excited about him, sorry.

The1fifi

= alternative day 2 bandwagon. Does many, many suspicious things.

jasonT1981

inverno

= Neutral. I'll just guess town and move on.

[Wacky]

Pre-emptive defense since I pushed the DTM lynch: DTM was breadcrumbing to a vig fakeclaim, and eventually admitted it himself (after lots of lying). Breadcrumbing to a cop or .... tracker role makes more sense and vig fakeclaims so very, very, very common with SK and mafia. You'd have to be.... The1fifi to find him town.

Nonetheless

Kill: Wacky

, followed by

Kill: McZombie

, to prove I'm not said daykiller.

Besides, if you were going to gambit, gambit

in style

:

Vote: McZombie.

McZombie, did you, or did you not, target RegFan last night?

A simple yes or no will suffice.

And for additional WIFOM-iness fun,

The1Fifi, did you, or did you not, target RegFan last night?

A simple yes or no will suffice.

I look forward to your reply, which may or may not influence how I vote.... Teeheehee.....

@jbernier: I interpreted similarly.

[Wacky]

However, The1fifi is my #1, and I want to see his case on Jasper, though I doubt it exists. The "in memory" line is not sufficient.
Fifi's distancing/support of the DTM lynch looks REALLY bad to me.

I went back and read the beginning of the game, because that is when The1fifi decided to vote me, then when pressured promptly unvoted me... and said it was not a RV and that there was a reason to vote me (everyone else had 0 reasons)...

now on Day 2 opens up and votes me again... in "memory" of DTM... because he was saying I was scum in D1... yet, he was a liar, and did a ton of scummy things...

FOS: The1fifi

@Jasper: Why do you think The1fifi deserves an FOS but not a vote? The1fifi seems pretty suspicious to me considering that whole "DTM will flip town" thing yesterday (on top wishy washy voting and the rest)

I am implying you are wether scum or a town power role.

@The1fifi. This is interesting. If I may ask, why did you say "Scum or cop" and exclude other roles?

Also, as a result of jasper's recent response, how convinced are you that jasper is scum?

And what made you think that jasper may have been scum prior to the resolution of night 1?

[Wacky]

Jasper has a gun.

I'd be thinking of a different role here rather than cop.....

Anyway, @jasper: Do you have a gun?

[Wacky]

That felt like the claim didn't work as well as intended. The only things I can conclude from this are:

1. If Jasper is town, then The1fifi is unlikely to be scum.
2. If Jasper is scum, then The1fifi may still be scum of the same faction (gambit).
3. Jasper has to be really,

really

unlucky to be some kind of gunsmith miller and targeted by said gunsmith night 1.

@Jasper: Are you essentially claiming vanilla townie with an empty gun?

Do you have a daykilling ability? If not, can you please kill yourself and someone else in bold to prove you are not?

[Wacky]

About Wacky... I was curious about the "have you targeted regfan" too..

Wacky, care to explain?»

I was bluffing. I don't think there's any real reason for a pro-town role to have been targeting regfan, so the risk of outing a pro-town power role is low, while scum might actually answer truthfully because I might be a tracker. I dub this Wacky's gambit! It didn't work.

....moving on.

Unvote, Vote: Jasper

I had to look up Gunsmith on the wiki, but the odds are good that Jasper is scum, since according to him, he's not a cop.
Without bullets his gun only serves to incriminate him against The1fifi, he's not a vig. Crunching the numbers the odds are against him being town.

[Wacky]

It was one of the factors...

And I did not kill Echo because I did not get a huge scum reading off of Echo.

What were the other factors?

If you only had one bullet, why did you decide to kill Regfan as early night 1? Why not wait until night 2 when you would have more information?

Voting for you isn't a very good reason for you to kill them, and your claim requires a successful doctor on top of a few other coincidences. Not to mention that I don't think regfan was a good target for a kill.

I don't like it at all.

[Wacky]

Well, jasper is corroborating my theory that he is a one shot vig, and we have a doctor who was succesfull last night. I don't know if jasper is saying the truth, or enjoyed my idea and is just going with it.

Why do you believe jasper's claim and that the doctor was successful night 1? He only claimed one-shot-vig after you claimed gunsmith.

[Wacky]

Warning: Wall of text ahead.

On The1Fifi vs Jasper

1. Jasper:

To believe Jasper to be town, you need to believe:
1. Jasper felt like using his

only

kill after just one night of discussion,
2. The doctor got lucky and only one scum party

or

two failed kills or both killed regfan.

Not to mention that in a game with cop, vig, and 3 scum (fairly standard game) then scum with guns outnumber town with guns. If you picked a random person with a gun, the chance they are scum is higher than they are as a town.

The1fifi

To believe The1Fifi to be scum AND Jasper to be town, you need to believe that the1Fifi is a scum gunsmith (a completely novel role).

The1fifi and Jasper both being scum is completely possible, and IMO quite likely considering how ridiculously scummy The1fifi has been acting throughout, but in that case it doesn't matter which one you lynch first. Why not lynch Jasper first?

If you lynch Jasper and get it wrong, you lynch someone with no ability who had the poor judgement to nk a townie night 1. If you lynch The1fifi and get it wrong, you lynched a cop.

FOS: Zachrulez and Jason

for even suggesting The1fifi might be a better lynch than jasper today. As crazily suspicious as The1fifi may be, the payoff just isn't worth it today.

If The1fifi is not what she claimed, then it's likely that there'll be a cop to investigate her tonight and prove it anyway or something.

On the various comments made against me:

I didn't like the part of ISO 12 where she threw out the daykills to prove she wasn't a day vig. (While seeming to believe in the existance of some kind of vig.

1. It would narrow down vig suspects if you're a townie and not a vig.

2. Something about it just looks wrong to me. I am having a hard time seeing a townie eager to prove they don't have daykilling powers, especially given an understanding of point 1 above.

My rationale is that:

Assume DTM wasn't lying at the end - I'm not really sure, but he was town so if he was lying to the end then I guess he's a troll... Then there's someone out there with the ability to bold kill.

1. If it's an "important" part of the game then the implication is that such a role isn't necessary pro-town - e.g. an SK could have such an ability as their safe claim. Such a person might have pushed for a DTM lynch for that reason.

2. I pushed for the DTM lynch. So, it makes sense to prove I'm not that person.

3. It's not correct to say I believe in the existence of a day-vig, it's just that DTM roleclaimed the existence of someone with a day-killing ability, and DTM was town.

... and MAYBE Nicky and Wacky early on.

Sitting back and trying to lurk a mislynch out of us?
jbernier93 .. and maybe Nicky and Wacky once they saw where things were headed??

My timezone is halfway around the world from most of other players, so I would need to be up pretty late to be posting more than once per real life day. I'm not up late every night, and posting long ranting late night posts does more ill than good. "Early on" was like, yesterday, isn't it a bit early to accuse me of lurking?

Agree with you to some extent on Nik though.

[Wacky]

So, what I think of Jasper:
He's scummy. He beat around the bush before his fullclaim by saying things like, 'I USED to have bullets in my gun, but not any more,' which I would usually lynch someone for. However, one thing is keeping me from voting him:

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

@Nikanor:

Actually, he said things like "I don't have any bullets in my gun

", which is worse.

I'm not quite seeing how the town win condition implies the existence of a vig. It looks like standard boilerplate to me, and if anything, it implies the existence of third parties (i.e. SKs). Once again, that implicates Jasper (you'd need a lot of cross/failed kills)

It was a long and cold night, but as the sun dawned and you all assemble in the town square with a fresh sense of optimism. That is until....

"Hey... That snowman wasn't here yesterday..."

Everyone turns to see a life sized snowman in the middle of the square. You look around and realize that one of your own is missing.

"Where's Regfan?"

You step towards the snowman and start to break away the snow to reveal the dead body of Regfan. He died from

multiple gunshots to the chest

and was used as the snowman's base after his death. How sad.

1. Killing someone and stashing them in a snowman is not pro-town.
2. But on the other hand, multiple gunshots might or might not hint at a cross kill.

*sigh*. I guess I could wait for more dead bodies to see how many dead bodies there are and bullet holes there are in them before pushing for the Jasper wagon...

But Jasper still hasn't justified killing Regfan yet, so I don't want to just let it drop. Killing someone just because they voted for you. OMGUS kills isn't exactly pro-town-like behaviour.

[Wacky]

I was about ready to unvote you and move onto other things...?

And what do you mean bring it back? There's discussion on you on the page 18 and we're only page 19, and it's not like I'm totally attacking you. What's wrong with a little attention?

And you still haven't elaborated on your reasons for targeting regfan. They're kinda important to me...

If The1fifi is not what she claimed, then it's likely that there'll be a cop to investigate her tonight and prove it anyway or something.

See this here scares me

ALOT

it means outing a cop to confirm fifi... seems a bad trade off...

even if Fifi is telling the truth, it exposes the cop. I don't like that one bit.

I get the feeling you're misunderstanding me here.

What I didn't mean: The cop should expose themselves.

What I did mean: Lynching the claimed gunsmith today is probably a bad play.

If there was a cop and I was it, I would not counterclaim but I would be suspicious of and probably investigate The1fifi, because two information roles that are useful in one game is rarer, and The1fifi is suspicious. It's sort of the policy investigation choice if I was cop.

Regarding 434, I have to believe Wacky knows better than to throw out that Jasper is scummy for using his kill, being almost anyone who is ever given a gun and a option to shoot someone USUALLY WILL.

I don't know better than to throw out that Jasper is scummy for using his kill, being that almost anyone who is only given only one shot to kill someone, and wasn't in a great amount of danger from nightkill, would probably save it for a little later. You gen Z people, always looking for instant gratification....

Before I get accused of tunnelling on Jasper again,

Seven: I think the quotes of Seven are a little out of context, but I'd rather let Seven defend himself.

I also find the speed with which the Seven wagon whipped up rather suspicious given how slowly the Jasper wagon didn't.

The List:
jbernier93: Looking increasingly suspicious.
camn Echo: No particular vibes.
Seven: No particular vibes.
Zachrulez Neon_Appliances: I can't follow his logic very well, so I find him suspicious
Nikanor: No particular vibes.
McZombie: Dropping off my radar... where are you?
Jasper: Would be policy lynch if it wasn't for the flavour of the deaths.
The1fifi: Policy moratorium today, but highly suspicious.
jasonT1981 inverno: Townie vibes

[Wacky]

@The1fifi, cross-kills:

Well, if you picked random kills the chance is 1/12, but the thing is that it isn't random, and you have that multiple gunshots thing.

I guess it comes down to the relative likelihood of:
- Both mafia and Jasper as one-shot vig targeting Regfan last night , vs
- Jasper as mafia targeting Regfan last night.

That's why I'm so hung up on Jasper's rationale, what was inside his head at the time.

[Wacky]

Agreed, mafia shooting reg makes a lot of sense. So Jasper shooting reg as well, doesn't quite sit well with me, especially when the reasons he's said so far aren't very thought out.

[Wacky]

@jbernier: Because I get active lurking vibes from you - you always seem to be around, but there doesn't seem to be much content in your posts overall.

@Nik re win con:

I read it as, 'You win if you kill all the scum, unless the vig and scum crosskill each other in 2p.

It's just occurred to me that you can also read it as "..unless the SK and scum crosskill each other in 2p"...

@Nik re: Jasper

I was ready to unvote Jasper because of:

1. it wasn't going anywhere...
2. that "shot multiple times in the chest" flavour, and
3. Tactically I figured we need a little more information. If we policy lynched Jasper without pursuing other leads first and he was town, Day 2 would be very difficult.

But on the other hand, I still rather skeptical of Jasper's innocence. 1. He did only claim he had no bullets in his gun after The1fifi claimed gunsmith,
2. I really don't like how he's ultra-defensive - all of his votes have been OMGUS,
3. Cross-kills, while they happen, aren't that common.

[Wacky]

I'd make a joke about how all mafia players are bloodthirsty so the1fifi is totally buddying up to camn but I can't get the wording right.

Nothing to add right now, waiting for Seven to post.

Would really, really prefer it if people didn't hammer out of boredom though.

[Wacky]

Generally I like and agree with Seven's wall of text. And as stated earlier, I find it very off that bandwagon conveniently distracted from whatever attention there was on Jasper.

So Seven, could you give a quick summary of suspects, and suspected links? If you could pick one person to lynch today, who would you pick?

Also, unfortunately I have a few things going on this week so won't have as much time to read or write walls, but I'll still be around.

[Wacky]

I wonder if I've been unclear:

Fortunately I have time to write a wall today.

Theories on Night 1:

1. Cross Kill A (scum kills regfan, Jasper as Vig kills regfan):

I'm ambivalent about the cross-kill theory. That's maybe why people are reading it both ways. Flavour-wise, the multiple gunshots could (or might not) hint at a cross kill. That one point just eats at me and I was ready to unvote Jasper at some point, but everything else is against him for the most part.

I just don't find Jasper killing Regfan as town very plausible, because
1. Jasper's reason for suspicion are totally flimsy,

He still hasn't said any reason for killing regfan other than OMGUS

.
2. It's night 1, would you use your only kill on night 1?
3. Speed bandwagon on Seven actually works against him.

Which leads to -

2. Cross Kill B (scum kills regfan, Jasper as SK kills regfan):

That works, actually. SK wouldn't need to worry about vig kill because there's less chance of there being one.

3. Blocked kill (Scum kill fails <i.e. they targeted me>, Jasper as Vig kills Regfan)

Buried in a snowman as flavour sounds distinctly anti-town, but I can't say I can rule it out. I haven't received any PMs to the effect of "someone tried to kill you last night", but I don't expect to.

The whole "did you target him?" thing

... was just a bad idea in retrospect. I was annoyed at DTM's whole lying thing and turning out to be town and just wanted to try something random.

I am NOT a tracker, and fakeclaiming a tracker would be epitome of stupidity if I was mafia since I would have to guess who people targeted,

especially

and my kill was blocked last night.

What's more, I already explained it here -

Posted Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:52 am

About Wacky... I was curious about the "have you targeted regfan" too..

Wacky, care to explain?»

I was bluffing. I don't think there's any real reason for a pro-town role to have been targeting regfan, so the risk of outing a pro-town power role is low, while scum might actually answer truthfully because I might be a tracker. I dub this Wacky's gambit! It didn't work.

I just wanted to see if I could entrap scum this way. After all, it's a simple yes or no question and I couldn't see why a pro-town player would target regfan except a doc (in which case, he wouldn't be dead)

....then jasper goes and says he killed him. Gah.

... and then it ends up drawing this claim: Double. gah.

Zachrulz as Jailkeeper

I've considered you to be pretty suspicious today because your behaviour just seemed odd, but claiming jailbreaker would be a very daring fakeclaim for scum so that takes you off the list:

I'm guessing since you claimed, you're quite suspicious of me right now. Are you looking for me to claim at this stage?

TL;DR The List:

Scummy:

Jasper (I'm not sure if I buy it after all)
McZombie (...)
jbernier93 (active lurking, tends to go with the flow too much. )


Neutral:
camn Echo (Getting more suspicious now due to role in the Seven wagon if Seven is town, and I'm getting town vibes from Seven)
Nikanor
The1fifi (claimed cop. No counterclaims. Would be very suspicious otherwise)


Towny:

Seven (not getting scummy vibes)
jasonT1981 inverno (obv town?)
Zachrulez Neon_Appliances (claimed doc, no counterclaims)


Links:

Jasper <-> The1fifi (could be scum team together, playing a crazy gambit)
Camn <-> Jasper

Dislinks:

Camn <-> McZombie (post just now)
Camn <-> Seven

Afterword

Hm. With this new information and Jasper's recent actions... I feel like the right thing to do is to

vote: jasper

.
Basically I feel like the current combination of claims and posts from Wacky, Fifi, Jasper, and Zach makes this the optimal move. I know this sounds like crap, but if I say anymore I worry that I would be helping the scum more than the town.

I'm inclined to agree with you on the information content, except although Jasper is relatively scummy, I can't say for sure Jasper is scum and if he isn't then I can see things ending badly.

But I guess I'll just have to play the odds and hope Jasper is scum.

Confirm Vote: Jasper

@Jasper: ... say something.
@Camn: Please elaborate on Jason as scum, and Nikanor as scum.
Also, with "If Jasper = town, then Wacky-scum's kill was not blocked. " - please elaborate, since Zachrulez has just claimed jailkeeper and blocking me.

@Zachrulez: Are you looking for a claim from me, and since if you're telling the truth (and you probably are) the chance of you dying tonight is high, could you just quickly sum up what you think of everyone?

[Wacky]

Jasper <-> The1fifi (could be scum team together, playing a crazy gambit)

How likely do you think this is? I coulds see this as a gambit play later in the game but on day 2 does seem a bit weird unless they really feel they need to earn townie browinie points..

.... probably not. From what I have seen of Jasper and The1fifi's playstyles in this game, I can't see them doing it. But I would like to keep this option open.

You can't have the flavor and ignore the flavor. If you are calling "buried in a snowman" anti-town.. then you must accept "multiple gunshots", no?

"Multiple gunshots" is open to interpretation as well - I could envision it being mafia emptying a few rounds into poor Regfan. But I'm still open to other ideas if you'd can present a better case against them to Jasper.

[Wacky]

Relatively short post today:

For example, listing The1fifi as Neutral just seems really bizarre to me coming from a player of Wacky's experience -- do you really think a Newbie scum would premature claim like that when he or she would have no idea as to the existence of a potential investigative role? Under absolutely no pressure? And how exactly is jason obvtown?

JasonT is "Obvtown(?)" on my list because just about everyone is more suspicious to me than him at the moment. I don't have any backing to it, just an absence of suspicion. That could change later, but he's not high on my priority list at the moment.

And my putting The1fifi at neutral is:

1. because I think that roleclaims aren't everything in mafia and The1fifi has been doing a few things that are a bit suspicious, for example claiming on Jasper and then just believing his claim and letting the issue go.
2. Newbie scum could do just about anything, it doesn't have to make sense.



I should add that

Scummy:

Jasper (I'm not sure if I buy it after all)
McZombie (...)
jbernier93 (active lurking, tends to go with the flow too much. )


Neutral:
camn Echo (Getting more suspicious now due to role in the Seven wagon if Seven is town, and I'm getting town vibes from Seven)
Nikanor
The1fifi (claimed cop. No counterclaims. Would be very suspicious otherwise)


Towny:

Seven (not getting scummy vibes)
jasonT1981 inverno (obv town?)
Zachrulez Neon_Appliances (claimed doc, no counterclaims)

Was in decreasing order of scumminess, so Camn is most suspicious out of my neutral, and The1fifi least.

The thing that's bothered me most about [Wacky] is his tendency to tunnel on certain players.

I'm of the opinion that committing to a view is good as town. Otherwise it's all too easy to be distracted by mafia. Although I would happily abandon that view if persuaded otherwise.

I'm liking Camn less by the post, for example. Something just doesn't rub right with me. If someone puts a good case together against her, I'd consider switching..

[Wacky]

Soooooooo... why would that make him obvtown?

When I go as far as to call someone obvtown, I can usually point to something that the person did completely on his or her own that gives me that vibe. What you're saying above is process of elimination, and I'm never not once used POE to come to the conclusion that someone is obvtown. That just doesn't make any sense to me.

Point taken. JasonT: Not ObvTown.

because I think that roleclaims aren't everything in mafia and The1fifi has been doing a few things that are a bit suspicious, for example claiming on Jasper and then just believing his claim and letting the issue go.

What are your thoughts about the fact that he's rejoined the wagon?

First, where is my vote wacky?

I should stress that the The1fifi-scum possibility sort-of needs Jasper-scum to work, and on top of that we would really need to be at Lynch-or-Lose or last remaining mafia for me to be seriously contemplating a The1fifi lynch.

Rejoining the wagon is just the same sort of wishy washy voting The1fifi has been doing all game for me, so nothing new.

I'm more curious to know why you (Incognito) brought that up, what are your thoughts on how he's rejoined the wagon?

@Incognito on Camn:

I think a her-scum would have just fed in on the attacks going on at that time. Probably the second towniest player in the game (behind The1fifi).

Is that what you think is the case with Jasper-scum or Jasper-town?

Note to self - add dis-link: Incognito / Camn <-> Jason.

@Jason re: meta-Jasper, it did feel like Jasper's been content to stay in the background (except he kept getting called on things) even before you mentioned that which is consistent with what you said about the meta, so do you have any insights on his town play instead?

[Wacky]

Twilight.

I won't preach on correct doctor play here (it's pretty obvious).

Don't have much on anything to add today. Hope Jasper flips scum, and The1fifi targets someone suitably suspicious.

Good night all.

[Wacky]

I'm posting at 2:39am so I'll keep this short:

1. We may be at lynch-or-lose. Please take care with your vote.

2. It seems that over the past few years of playing mafia my persuasive skills remained good but my mafia finding skills have gotten rusty and turned to complete crap. It only really dawned on me at twilight that the jasper lynch was probably not a good bet.

I apologise for that, but the past two days did have a lot of informative content and I still think a win is possible.

3. Investigation results The1fifi?

4. ..... watch out for my wall over the weekend.

I now currently suspect Nikanor, McZombie / Incognito and Camn the most.

[Wacky]

Sorry for the delay (once again, timezone difference). I'm not sure if massclaim was the best play since it clears up the field for mafia (so once again, FOS: Incog), but I'm a:

Claim: Vanilla town member

I think the only one left to claim is Nik.

[Wacky]

No, wait, actually Incognito hasn't claimed either.

[Wacky]

Ah, missed that.

Re your question, I was thinking, is there a point in claiming vanilla? If there were / are other power roles, a mass claim seems to help the mafia in revealing any remaining roles more than it does the town. If you were worried about guns fakeclaims why not just have a mass gun or no gun claim?

But never mind...

[Wacky]

Wacky reinforced something i was also thinking about incog. @Wacky : Why did you ignore my post about you being camn's buddy? and what is your opinion on my camn case?

Because I didn't realise you were implying I was her buddy, you only said there was almost no interaction. And that isn't all that true, I said I'd be happy to drop the jasper wagon and join a camn wagon if someone could make a persuasive case on her. As for your case:

Well, my toughts on camn:

-In her first post she calls me obvscum.

I did that too....

-Yet, she quickly believes my claim.

You're the only claimed cop in a normal game, that's normal

-One of the three vanilla claims i am suspicious of.

I think you're the only non-vanilla at this stage unless Nik claims something different.

-Of those three, she was on one of the others (seven, who i find really townie ) wagon..

That's what I said, except for Jasper who was third on the bandwagon. While I was wrong on Jasper, I think that logic still makes sense and Camn is fourth, so...

-She is agressive towards everyone, altough there is almost no interaction between her and wacky.

Fos at her

Late day 2 I was mulling about jumping to Camn wagon when Nik went and hammered. n.b. if you've been away for a while, would you have hammered first like Nik and reread later, or reread first before hammering?

I was more concerned about how incog read her as very town based on meta (which if you have more time then me it may be worthwhile looking into)

-Camn's play is really agressive and.. let me find a word.. vague/wandering i say.

-The main idea i get from her is she is trying to cast suspicion over everyone, and doing it really agressively, (soft)claiming town in various posts.

I have no problems with the aggressive, but I agree with you that there's something off with her style, it feels oddly fake

I am really convinced she is scum, and i'd suport her lynch for today. I'd love to hear the rest of the claims.

I would support a camn lynch, but I think Nik is worth pressuring today as well. He hasn't been posting...



------

Also, flavour today confirms regfan cross-kill, so an ISO of him is worthwhile IMHO:

Wacky I'd appreciate if you'd do an analysis on McZombie. Currently I believe the three most likely to be mafia being McZombie, Jasper and Nikanor.

Anyway for some reason I've forgotten to unvote from when Jee was here. So:

Unvote

Vote: McZombie

(And of course him being very upset at the jb hammer of dtm)

Echo/Camn wasn't on his list, but McZ(Incog) and Nik are on my suspect list partly for this reason.

[Wacky]

Wacky - claimed vanilla town. Seems pretty town for most of the game, but ISO posts 12, 31, and 32 are kinda iffy...

12: ... that was really iffy, in retrospect. McZombie didn't fall for my ploy, but it could just mean we were mafia buddies.

31: I try to hint to Zachrulez to not try to block Gunsmith The1fifi so we have a result today on someone. ....It didn't work. What's wrong with that?

32: What was iffy about this, sorry?

If you ISO anyone in a long enough game I'm sure you'd find some posts that are iffy, especially with someone like me who gets easily bored and starts doing random things (like 12). If you think I'm pretty town most of the game, then shouldn't you instead find someone scummy for most of the game?

It's lylo, it's too early for a vote.
I think it was pretty clear from my other post that my top suspects are wacky seven and incog, but of the three I'm not sure which I'll vote for today. Although like I said nik is vaguely scummy as well

Unvote Vote jbernier

kk

vote:Wacky

....and what's with that. Isn't it a bit early for a vote? Wait for Nikanor post, at least if you think he's scummy.

Counterbalancing my scummy posts, Zachrulez did block me Night 1, and the flavour strongly suggests Regfan crosskill (snowmen, multi shot night one, single shot night two). So at the very least, it proves I did not kill Regfan.

@The1fifi: I think you need to look beyond the votes on the lynch and see who was not voting for the lynch but still goading on for the analysis to be complete.

[Wacky]

31 and 32 are both junk posts which IMO do not sound like things a townie would say. We know when its twilight and we know when its lynch or lose.
Actually, I've thought pretty much all of the players who are in right now have been town for most of the game. And obviously this isn't true.

Okay, that twilight thing was just me not having anything to say until Jasper flips. And I'm not totally sure people really know it's lynch or lose, certain people seem to be throwing around those votes anyway. Is a few junk posts really that scummy when you've been making a few yourself?

@The1fifi and jbernier:

Perhaps it's WIFOM, but I'm not sure if jbernier is the best choice because the DTM hammer seems too attention grabbing, and I seem to get lazy and lost vanilla town vibes from him rather than scum vibes.

[Wacky]

Here's a table of scum and town reads for Day 3.



So the row called "Wacky" says that I have Incognito, Camn and Nikanor on my suspect list, and Jason, Seven, JB and The1fifi on my not-so-suspect list. (Although now that I think about it, I really shouldn't except for The1fifi since I don't really have any idea what I'm doing anymore.)

If I've missed out on anything, please call me out on this. Checking it just now, at the very least, in my pic above I've actually missed Nikanor FOSing Seven, and also JasonT and Nik have yet to post full analyses, so it's more of a starting point than an end point.

And I can't say I'm sure on any of this so amongst my suspects I still have no idea who's the best to go after today.

Ah well, it's almost half past one in the morning, sleep time.

[Wacky]

...I say sleep time, but somehow I'm still awake:

Wacky, when you have the time, can you describe "the incestuous pool of distancing"? I think i am missing something, or you are scum.

I'm exploring the idea of Camn / Incog scumteam and tacking on Nik to see if it fits.

Incog and Camn talk with and agree with each other a lot, it sends off alarm bells in my head.

Incognito seems to talk to Camn too much, and is far too convinced Camn is town.

I didn't say I necessarily agreed with your points on camn, nor am I 100% convinced you're Town, though I am leaning heavily towards thinking that you are.

A lot of what he says makes logical sense, but I just get the feeling of wrongness to it. Plus McZombie's posts previously seemed off.

Camn supported Jasper's lynch with comments like

I do hope you all get your information... from my lynch.

townies win with the town. I could almost hammer from this post alone.
Incog? Is it time for this day to end? Or do we want some Nikanor summary before night?

but conveniently isn't on the vote count..., and

I think scumteam =

jbernier93
Nikanor
jasonT1981

MAYBE Incog could be scum.. but if so I think we are f##ed, cuz I can't see myself voting him.

Some of Camn's posts feel fake, and that "Camn lynch = town loss" comment came off as too strong, but the latest post(s) do feel a bit more sincere so all in all, I'm warming to the idea of Camn being not scum, but Incog less so. ....And that comment about Seven seems oddly making sense too.

Then Nikanor FOSes: Camn...

All I'm concluding, though is that Incog is scummy, but camn not necessarily.

Time for me to really sleep.

[Wacky]

No time for me to post complete walls today, but will tomorrow.

On low post counts, for the second time, I'm in a different timezone, and it's still about one post per day. And it's content that matters.

Also, VT tell is lurky, flaky and lost (vanilla isn't exactly great motivation to play properly). By comparison, I expect scum to be actively posting about now, so lurker attacks on Nik aren't exactly more convincing. (not to say Nik isn't suspicious mind you)

But this is complete crap logic.

I really, really don't like the feel of especially recent Incog posts (also Camn to a lesser extent), it's too damn bloodthirsty, and very shaky logic in places. It reeks like scum pushing for a quick lynch so they can win already, knowing that even if they get caught out there's still two more chances for the town to screw up.

I also get the feel that Incog posts seem to be aimed at manipulating the1fifi in particular. This + bad McZombie vibes...I've had enough of this:

OMGUS VOTE: Incog

.

[Wacky]

... that would be good vanilla town play. I hope I've been good vanilla town.

In real life, though, vanilla town lose interest, flake, and post more in games where they're SK or something.

I'm not against lynching lurkers when they're scummy, but I'd rather be picking someone who has been actively incriminating themselves first than some guy that hasn't posted enough for me to form a view.

In FIFI, CAMN INCOG.. there is at least 2, and probably three town... which leaves at LEAST 2... probably 3 scum OFF the wagon.
A whole 12 hours went by with 3 votes on Nika, right?
I agree that at this stage scum would be following the thread.. and would have piled 2 more votes on IF NIKA WAS TOWN..

You're partially right and totally misrep. Either Nika is scum as you said, or members of the scum-team have already piled on, and other members were inconveniently flaking, etc. Quick hammer is not the only way to play scum at lynch or lose and kinda risky too.

The speed that those three votes piled on leads me to think it's the latter and is the trigger for my vote on Incog.

P.s. Deflecting the issue with a joke about caught scum and band camp is great and all, but seriously why did those 3 votes just appeared in a snap? Feels so wrong and anti-town.

@The1fifi:
1. You're the only investigative role and so suspecting you today is kinda off the table. You're the policy night kill tonight and there's plenty of scum to lynch anyway.
2. Zachrulez was the policy night kill yesterday since if mafia targeted you, you could be protected but Zachrulez can't protect himself. It should not be a surprise to you that you are alive.

So I don't think you should be relying on Incog not suspecting you as a tell, but... the buddying... the buddying... is.

Extra post before sleep time over, good night guys.

[Wacky]

Too many walls...

Once again, I actually find seven's posts, although infrequent, to be pretty close to what I'm thinking (Please get out of my head)


@Incog:

I can't seem to leave this game alone haha.

There are a bunch of unanswered and very relevant questions that I had for Wacky that he hasn't even bothered to respond to that he instead called "crap logic". I'll list them here:

Jasper: Would be policy lynch if it wasn't for the flavour of the deaths.

His thoughts about the person he decides to keep his vote on? I don't understand what he's saying here about the flavor. Wacky, explain?

Perhaps it's WIFOM, but I'm not sure if jbernier is the best choice because the DTM hammer seems too attention grabbing, and I seem to get lazy and lost vanilla town vibes from him rather than scum vibes.

This seems a bit misguided, and I don't understand why you'd feel this way while still suggesting that you find Nikanor scummy when Nikanor also laid down an "attention-grabbing" hammer to end the Day Yesterday.

Also, could you explain your table a bit more? I'm not sure I fully understand it.

All I'm concluding, though is that Incog is scummy, but camn not necessarily.

That entire post was about camn, but you conclude that I'm scummy? How does that work?

1. We were thinking about blocked kills, multi-kills. "Multiple gunshots" was what I referring to here.

2. Day one vs. Day before lynch of lose. Do something crazy day one, you get a lot attention day two. A quick look through on the games with vote counts on wiki suggests that mafia hammers town on day one aren't too common.

OTOH, getting the game to lynch or lose is totally worth the risk. I would totally quick hammer as scum. Nikanor, for the record, is scummy. I completely agree with you that my opinion changed when he hammered the way he did.

First Seven's stuff:

Reading over Camn and Incog's posts I'm pretty sure we've found our scumteam in them and jbernier. I don't even care which one we lynch first anymore.

In what seems to be a LyLo situation, you're so convinced that you've found a "team" that you're willing to lynch any of the above-mentioned three people Today? I can't even fathom you believing this if you were town. The proper thing to do would be to try to find which person you found to be the most likely to flip scum and then to vote for that person. After all, if you were town you'd realize that the whole entire game practically rested on your decision Today.

I think the scum team = you, camn and Nikanor. I do care, however which one we lynch first. I tried to find which person I think is most likely to flip scum, and that person is you.


3. Wall post(s) upcoming in a few hours I hope.

OK! Now we are talking.

Seven is totally scum, and is a great lynch for today.
Of course, Nikanor is ALSO scum.

However, it is doubtful that Ingognito is scum.... Wacky, fifi.. please unvote.
After all this discussion.. a 3-scum pile-on quicklynch is unlikely (assuming for this ONE POST Wacky-town) but it is certainly a possibility.

.... this is after you put the second vote on Nikanor, and after the incog that you think is so town put the third vote on. Calling hypocrisy of the highest order here.

But

Unvote

anyway, because you're right in this instance.

@Camn - Why is it so very doubtful that incog is scum? He's just put on the third vote on Nikanor allowing scum to quicklynch him if he and you were town.


And lurkers need prodding.

[Wacky]

Why is Incog scummy, in random order:

1. Too hard, too fast.

Personally, I am partially quite lost. Incog is scummy. Camn is scummy. Nikanor is scummy. Jb is scummy, Seven is lurktastic, Jason hasn't even said anything of note today. Amidst my indecision, it would be nice if I could wait until at least my prime suspect has said what they need today before I decide to do something potentially game ending.

I log on and I see that Nikanor has three votes. Nikanor hadn't even finished posting crap when Incog and Camn decided to place the votes on, risking mafia quicklynch. What the hell is this?

Camn and Incog are both on this wagon, and they should both know better. It's complete hypocrisy for camn to ask me to unvote incog for the EXACT SAME THING they did yesterday, but I digress.

2. Incog and Camn buddying to the max.

Are you two dating? You can't be married because you agree all the time. Incog and Camn seem very much in love, especially on Day 3. Camn says something, Incog agrees. Incog gets a mass claim going, Camn gives him props. Camn votes, Incog votes. Camn FOSes Seven, suddenly Incog's hunting Seven. Neither of them finds this oddly suspicious.

Incog thinks camn is totally town based on meta arguments, which I don't feel comfortable with.

If Jasper's scum and if camn was his buddy, I think she'd be more likely to just flat-out bus him and push for his lynch hard. I say this out of familiarity with camn's previous scum play.

C) I am historically very aggressive, as town AND scum.

I don't particularly remember camn being a "ballsy" type of scum; she's generally a bit more wishy-washy and reserved with her opinions when playing a scum game

It feels Incog is just saying whatever justifies his point - that last comment doesn't mesh with what was previously said.

With that level of buddying, at least one of you just has to be scum. Or you two really are dating.

n.b. Camn seemed to react okay to the1fifi's grilling. But she did fudge the chronological order (ISO 59, 60), which definitely does not feel right. Muddying up the waters is the last refuge of caught scum, really, and she may have been doing just that.

3. Buddying with The1fifi.

Just because Incog admits it, doesn't mean I stop finding him scummy, sorry. The1fifi's a newbie, he or she sometimes says things that aren't exactly paragons of good play and yet Incog completely buddies up to him. Coupled with some unsubtle nudges on who to vote for and I get the distinct feeling that he's trying to manipulate the1fifi's vote because 1. it's easier than manipulating a more experienced player and 2. to give credibility since the1fifi is pretty much confirmed town.

4. McZombies shameless bandwagoning, lurking, (possibly WIFOM) regfan's top suspect, etc.

Incog's predecessor was scummy too, enough said.

This is the balancing item for me to go after Incog rather than Camn.

5. And iffy post:

Scum hate it when town begins clearing town, so they try to plant little seeds of doubt on the townies who seem a bit too sure of each other.

...
Indeed they do. But... you FOSed JBernier (which is fair enough), you're going after Nikanor (which is fair enough), after Camn has a brainwave you don't like Seven, you think I'm scummy because I tunnel too much (which is fair enough) and Jason hasn't posted enough for you to form an opinion (once again, fair enough). The only person you like is the1fifi, and camn, who I just can't see as clear by any standard.

Just who are you clearing?





Side note:

One thing that's made me a bit uneasy as of late is the sheer level of jbernier-hate that I've been seeing in this thread. It seems like practically everyone has him at least SOMEWHERE within their list of suspicions, which suggests to me that either he's town or he's scum who the scum think they need to bus in order to cut themselves free of their damaged good. I didn't expect Nikanor to list him as scummy but then again, if Nikanor's scum like I think he might be, he might have decided that it was time for a bern-bus.

Fifi, actually, now that I think about it, the only people who've said they had positive vibes from Wacky as of Today are you and Nikanor, and I've made my feelings about both you and Nikanor pretty clear. Seven hasn't said anything at all about Wacky, jbernier thinks Wacky's scummy and currently has his vote on him, and camn seems like she could see the possibility of him being scum too. So I was mistaken when I mentioned that I couldn't understand why people listed Wacky as Town because it's really only you and Nikanor who seem to think so, and I think the latter of you two is scum.

... so, why does everyone suspecting jbernier make you uneasy, but not everyone (apparently) suspecting me?

[Wacky]

Ninja'd...

Most of Incog's posts are asking me questions directly and trying to get me to waste time answering him. I don't think they're relevent or bring up any good points, so I'm not going to waste my time debating with scum when I should be discussing with town. If any town players want me to answer his post for the sake of argument, I will.

@Wacky: Why are you more suspicious of Incog than of camn? I didn't think he was scum until seeing his interactions with camn today. I find camn has been suspicious since the beginning. As for Nik, while I can entertain the idea of her being scum I find JB is more likely. All game he piggybacked on other people. Not until LyLo did he start trying to post content, and it took him being under a lot of pressure. He put his supposed last vote on you, and as soon as his teammates started throwing my name around he switched it to me and has otherwise stopped posting IMO because he doesn't want to sink his scummates any further. I just don't see how Nik is scummier than that.

Camn vs. Incognito

It sometimes feels like they're the same person, but:

1. Camn didn't entirely crack under Day 3 The1fifi pressure, although some of her responses felt iffy, some sounded like it could be genuine.

2. McZombie was hella scummy.

3. I wanted to choose, because then if I'm wrong about one of them, scum will choose for me.

JB vs Nikanor:

1. Nikanor's hammer feels off.

2. JB sometimes comes off as a confused vt. I can't give a good reason, it just feels that way.

But my scumdar's clearly rusted through, maybe JB is scum, or maybe I'm wrong about you being town, Seven.

[Wacky]

Before I get accused of tunnelling:

PS.. Jason hasn't posted >anything< worthwhile this gameday. BOO.
Totally anti-town.

scumteam =
Seven
Jason
Nikanor

Why Jason? He's V/LA. I get town reads off him.

I'd switch to nik but I'd rather lynch Wacky or Seven.

unvote

for now.

Why Seven and not me? Did I get less suspicious? Did he get more suspicious? Going back, I can only find this, were these the only reasons or did you have more?

Vote: jbernier93

Not even because of his hammer, I think that was understandable mistake (one I've made before), but because of his general lack of content on day 1. If you look at his ISO you can see he was just coasting by and gladly joined the DTM bandwagon.

I wouldn't call it a mistake, unless by "mistake" you mean "hammering a townie."
Also, this is the second case of Seven posting without paying attention to what's going on in the game... and I really don't like post 433 by him, since it seems to indicates those are our only lynch options, which is very, very false. And I've had scummy vibes from him from the beginning, so

vote: seven

.

... I understand I've been accused of buddying with Seven already, but please do explain more. If you're town and genuinely think Seven is scum, please do a full case against him that other like-minded townies can just say "oh, yeah, I'd vote for that".

[Wacky]

Didn't expect day to end so unexpectedly...

GG scum.

That was probably not the finest example of my town play. I think my biggest mistakes this game were:

1. Tunnelling a little bit too much.
2. Should have WIFOMed the setup and realised that there had to be pro-town gun character and therefore Jasper wasn't scum.
3. Not stopping the1fifi's reckless lylo voting enough...

I ended up being quite wrong about JasonT...

Was there anything else I should have done?


Oh, and when Incog accused me of trying to derail the seven wagon on Day 2, he was right. I was.... (too bad I rerailed it onto the Jasper wagon). I tried playing this game partly in my scum style and just tunnel on iffy people and actively derail wagons on people I thought were town. The tunnelling probably worked against me and hit my credibility on day 3, didn't it?

*sigh* Zach, it was ok for you to claim. Shame they had a roleblocker, or i would have gotten the guilty result on incog =(

Yeah, it was partly due to the weird night one... partly due to worry over the fact that I was going to get bandwagoned. (And I figured if I claimed at lynch -1, the town would be prone to lynching me anyway, so I figured early was better.)

I actually found your claiming quite puzzling, so I was wondering whether you thought I was blocked scum for whatever reason.

Lol, as you can see my role was faked. However I find it interesting that I guessed the element of the gun. Zach/Fify/Jasper should have been like: wait a minute, what kind of role would know that. :p

Yeah... that probably worked against you though. I was sooooo confused about this day 2.

On the setup, I think it's slightly skewed to scum, but not unfairly so. Although like any mini, two town lynches and town is pretty screwed. Two pro-town gun results is probably on the high side, and if the doc is jail you don't really need a roleblock on top of that.

[Wacky]

McZombie kills Regfan

... I wonder why McZombie claimed she didn't on Day 2. Was it that obvious I was just faking it?

You were the most dangerous to Jasper lol :[

XD