Mini 917 -- Precision Mafia (Game Over)

[Seacore]

Hello all

I've had a similiar idea to Fate...

I've been toying with an idea that didn't work in my head, but maybe people can flesh it out for me.

Town have 3a + y points, where a is the number of town and y is the commander bonus
Similarly scum have 3b + x points... or maybe it's 3b + y...

Anyway,

I was thinking about the merits of forcing everybody to burn through 2 points each before we get started. That way, everybody has only one point each. And thus scum have to consider not voting to use their night actions. Like I said, it doesn't work, the commander bonus is too much of a spanner in the works. But I thought I'd throw it out there in case other people wanted to fix my idea, if possible.

Thats me out for now. I'm not sure how well RVS works when it's RFOSS

[Seacore]

yes fhq, but if we can get everybody to use all their points by the end of the day (after a successful lynch of course) then scum can't use their nk

but yes, it doesn't work.

[Seacore]

I do like the look of fifi either

Here's some thoughts, and cobalt knows how much I like posting my random thoughts.

Basically, we can't really organise just town or just scum using up their CP, since we don't know who is who. So we can only look at "everybody" conserving points or "everybody" wasting points.

Upsides for town with conservation

We have the points necessary to come back from a bad bandwagon or two.
We have the points to do our night actions, if we have any.

Downsides for town with conservation

Scum have the points left for their night kill and any other night actions of theirs.
Scum have the ability to distance by jumping on scum wagons and then jumping off again.

Upsides for town with wasting points

Scum have less points to throw around. They know how many they need to do all their night actions, they might start getting obviously stingy with them towards the end of the day. It might be a helpful tell.

Downsides for town with wasting points

We might get locked in to a bad wagon. It might take very little for scum, or even a misguided town, to lead us into the only lynch we can afford for the day.
We might not have points for our PRs.

So at the moment, I think conserving points is the lesser of the two evils. It gives scum more freedom, but I think the alternative hurts us more.

Thoughts?

Also, I don't consider conversation like this "breaking the game", I consider it "getting involved with the mechanics". If the Mod disagrees, I'll stop.

The players may use the command points however they deem most effective.

[Seacore]

I'm not trying to break the set up

I'm trying to discuss how this THEME game differs from normal mafia and how we can use it to our advantage as town. We have already engaged in this by avoiding voting, which you seem to have joined in on. I'm just looking at it a little deeper.

I enjoy theme games because rules like this force you to think "how is this different".

In my experience, people who get nervous about me doing so are more often scum than not.

A game that I was in called Cults of Darkness and Shadows just finished, and I was trying to do something similiar at the beginning of the game, discuss the differences. I was nearly lynched for it, then people realised that I wasn't scum, then I was NK'd because the scum thought my thoughts were dangerous. In Day 3, people were going back to my thoughts and using them to try and win.

tl:dr Shut up and let me do my thing.

[Seacore]

I haven't ignored it actually.

I've said that I'm happy, so far, with a fifi lynch, there's not much to say on it other than voting off the cuff is obviously bad play, so fifi should die.

Have you done anything else other than say that you're happy with a fifi lynch? No.

What I've done:

Point out my thoughts and then agree with suscpions about fifi.

What you've done:
Agree with suspicions about fifi and give me hard time for not doing more than you.

[Seacore]

I wouldn't even calling it "breaking" the setup up.

Breaking implies that it's not supposed to be done and will ruin the game if achieved.

I'm talkinga bout finding out what's the best strategy for town. Why is that wrong?

[Seacore]

Also

I'm not talking about a strategy that will mean we don't need to scum hunt. Or that will result in automatic victory from day 1.

And I don't think I ever suggested such a thing.

I'm just thinking out loud about the set up, so that if together we can see a way to tilt the set up in our favour, we can do that.

[Seacore]

Breaking the game would be this.

We force everybody to vote 10 times and then unvote.
We then see if any night actions were successful.
Then we force everybody to vote 10 times (unvoting each time), keeping the final vote on a nominated person.
We see if that vote kills that person. We then see if any night actions are successful.

The next day we do it the same, except with 9 times, with the final vote on nominated person.
We do this until the lynch is successful, thus informing us of the exact number of votes needed to cancel out night actions, but allow a vote.

It's not perfect, but that's definitely what I would call breaking the game.

But we're not going to do that. We aren't talking about doing anything like that.

We're talking about playing within the setup to gain an advantage. Stop being hysterical.

[Seacore]

I'm not looking for ways around them, I'm looking for ways with them, what about that can't you understand?

Anyway, I'm over this.
I will and always will, look for advantage within the rules.

You know when you realise in a normal game that a doc can protect a cop? Oh my god, that's breaking the game, cop's should be able to be NK'd, you're breaking the game!

Or you're using the rules to give the town an advantage.

And I'm not adding "Interogate probably scum Seacore" to your list of acheivements because all you've pointed out is that I've done more in this game than you have. Thanks for that, I'll keep it in mind.

[Seacore]

I think the scenarios in the pre-game Mod posts indicate that a lynch cannot be stopped by overvoting. If everyone goes into PR debt some day, the lynch will happen as usual, but all night actions will fail. Please correct me if you understand differently.

There's a "stopped lynch" scenario that shows a lynch can be prevented by debt.

[Seacore]

@fifi

So you didn't even look at the major difference in this set up?

What kind of asset are you to the town if that's the case? And don't start pointing fingers at people who apparently leapt to attack you. None of us voted, we all just pointed out the scummiest thing somebody had done by far.

Some of us FOS'd, others just mentioned your scuminess, and we did so quickly because it's the only thing that has really happened. But did you see anybody vote for you? No. because we were waiting for you to explain.

And lets get this right, your defence so far is

1) You didn't read the posts prior to yours or the set up
2) People are scummy for pointing out your bad action
3) People who are discussing the set up are scummy as well.

So has anybody posted yet who isn't scum? Apart from you?

[Seacore]

all he's done is go, "LOL let me get on the obvwagon

So you can do it and it's town
I do it and it's scum?

Good to know. I value your consistency

[Seacore]

Actually, I can see why Mr McGriddle is trying to say and it's not too bad.

The advice I take from it is, don't let fifi talk his way out of it.

[Seacore]

Fifi, what would you prefer?

You did something scummy. You say it's a noob mistake, but it's still scummy.

What should we do? Ignore it?

Maybe you should calm down and provide an alternative for your lynch? Instead of saying "oh my god, I did this one little thing and now everybody thinks I'm scum, when I'm not" over and over again.
We get it, you don't want us to lynch you, understood. Find us a better option, or walk up over near that tree and pull your collar down.

[Seacore]

I like it.

Given there are 12 players, assuming 3 scum seems about right (and maybe an SK, as there was one in the examples).

Assuming then, that there are 9 town, that gives us a little over 30 CP and gives the scum a little over 10.

We wouldn't want to do more than 1 half lynch a day, but otherwise, it sounds good.

For this, I'm assuming a single digit commander bonus btw.

What do others think?

[Seacore]

Well, he can spend no more than 10

Any less than that won't have an effect. So we're stuck at ten

If there are 4 scum, it is dramatically less successful, as if we get scum to burn 10, they've still probably got around 10 more. Still, it does mean they'll have to be far more careful with their votes.

A single spend of 10 CPs for the town, even if we only have 8 players, or even 7, shouldn't hurt us too much.

I would disagree with doing it twice, the odds of us finding two scum, thus draining them of 20 points, is small. And draining us of 20 could really hurt us.

More importantly though, I can see no disadvantage to doing this (once).
Town can wear the 10 points, scum will at least wince. As long as we don't let burning ten points protect you from getting lynched if you do something uber-obv-scum.

[Seacore]

how so?

[Seacore]

I too see no need to extend the day past here.

vote: Fifi

[Seacore]

I find that any arteficial extending of the day rarely leads to useful information. A long day full of strong scum hunting is good, yes. But if it's just a long day... which is what happens when you've found your scum on page 1 but then run it to page 16 for no reason... well that's pointless and not filled with useful posts.

[Seacore]

^

Exhibit A of useless posts of an extended day

[Seacore]

Yeah, what's that about?

That's twice in two games somebody has asked me to claim with no cause...

[Seacore]

Almaster, please pay attention to the maths.

The max amount that a single person can spend is 10.

Our amount, no matter how you look at it, is larger than that, much larger. Making a suspect spend 10 will have almost no effect on town CP.

However, scum may only have around that amount. They probably have more, but I would imagine they have less than 20.

[Seacore]

Oh, missed some earlier posts.

Almaster, State your precise case as to why I should claim, I'll consider it.

Also, nobody is saying the burn 10CP plan is perfect. Nobody is saying it will definitely negate an NK. But as I've said before, scum probably have between 10 and 20 points. Based on the idea of 3 scum, meaning 9+x.

If they've got closer to 10 points, and we get the scum (rather than a townie) to burn 10 points, they've got 9+x - 10 points remaining, i.e. x-1.
This means that there is a chance, especially if they've voted, that they might miss out on some of their NK or Night Actions (if any).

It's not foolproof, but it doesn't really cost us anything.

[Seacore]

whoa whoa whoa pops, I'm not cool with any plan that has the town commander claim on Day 2.

[Seacore]

It doesn't work, it ties our hands while the scum aren't tied up.

It means no night actions for our team.

[Seacore]

Ah okay... without knowing all of the PRs, it could be risky, as maybe we have a Vig who doesn't want to shoot, but I still see what you're trying to do.

I think it's a little too hard to orchestrate though. But maybe I'm just work-distracted and can't think straight.

[Seacore]

W.T.F

Almaster. I'm examining set ups. I've found one that works to our advantage. I'm more dubious of this one, but am happy to continue exploring it.

Take off your god damn tunnel vision

[Seacore]

My concern, pops, is that it involves too many unknowns. One off abilities, abilities that may not be used each turn. It could easily total more than 5.

There's also the possibility of reactionary abilities. Maybe something like "crazed gun owner" that only uses a point if it comes up...

I agree with you on the, definitely use your ability each turn, if you're directing that at weaker roles. I don't think town will be in a position of running out of points, as long as we don't go crazy with votes during the day.

I think if we're going to do your plan, it'd probably be more reliable to make the person waste the full 10. (or waste 9 and put the 10th to good use)... hmmm, but maybe they have a night ability... so waste 8, and put the 9th to good use, letting them us a PR if they have it.

[Seacore]

Vigs should always shoot every single night. Putting the gun on safety is bad form.

I disagree with this, there are some nights when they shouldn't. Particularly as you approach lylo.

[Seacore]

he doesn't seem to be opposing the plan in a legitimate way with specific concerns.

Sorry forr the 4x post, but this just annoyed me when I saw it.

Directly above your quote of me is a specific concern. But you've claimed it doesn't exist when quoting me and then accusing me of this. Bad form.

[Seacore]

I think it's a little too hard to orchestrate though. But maybe I'm just work-distracted and can't think straight.

Or maybe you're scum trying to dissuade town of a working strategy.

Delicious

FOS: Seacore

Is that why I raised my specific concerns right above the comment you quoted? And have engaged with the idea since? Yeah, out of context quotes for the scum-win

[Seacore]

It's out of context because you are claiming all I did was say that, and offered no other specific criticism, when you are ignoring the fact I did.

Disagree with that criticism, fine. But it was there.

[Seacore]

Given that I seem to be popping up as 'second most suspect' to a lot of people, regardless of whether I think it's for reasonable points or not, I'd be willing to burn as many CPs as is decided.

But pops, am I correct in understanding that Day 1 we'd have nobody waste the extra, so we'd have a comparison point?

[Seacore]

Yeah, I like that. We can definitely afford it.
And the results would either be
1) Three confirmed town - Sweet
2) 2 townies and a scum - worst case scenario, but still nice
3) 1 town and 2 scum - even sweeter than 1
4) 3 scum - sweet enough to enduce orgasm

[Seacore]

Enduce? Really Seacore? What the hell is wrong with your spelling these days... induce

[Seacore]

Well, we need a baseline for tonight don't we?

We're either going to kill fifi, or as him to burn some points and kill somebody else.

Getting him to do both is not so good. Because either he's scum, and won't burn the points, or he's town and we're killing him and losing points.

[Seacore]

So, lets get some votes going for this plan, as it'll only work if we all agree to do it (minus the filthy scum who will obviously try to screw it up)

1) We kill fifi today.
2) We do not burn points in a special way today, giving us a baseline.
3) Everybody with a PR decides to either use it every night (best option) or never use it (may be only safe option for some PRs)
4) Town commander quietly observes how many command points we have left and keeps silent.
5) Day 2, we decide who to lynch in the usual way, but also select 3 players to burn 5 of their points with 4 random votes before landing on the actual lynchee (why waste more CPs than we have to)
6) Night 2 should progress similiarly to night 1 with the town Commander observing the points
7) If all three chosen 'burners' come up as town, the Commander stays silent. If any other situation occurs, the Commander speaks up
8) Rinse and repeat, hopefully with a Doc protecting the Commander.

Thoughts?
Particularly, does anybody have an issue with point 7?

[Seacore]

My point is that if exact numbers are only given when at least 1 CP remains, that gives an incentive to be slightly more conservative.

Lets look at things here, in a worst case (for this plan) scenario

There are 12 players, lets say there are only 8 on the town team. Either 4 scum, or 3 scum plus SK.

With fifi dead and a townie night killed, we'll be down to six town (as I said, worst case scenario) that'd put us on 18+x. 15 points would be spent on this plan, with 3 of those points being used for the actual lynch of the day. With 10 players left, another 3 points would need to be spent. Lets assume all these points come from town.
There goes our 18 points. So we need to hope that the commander's bonus is = to our PRs.
With 8 town players, I'd imagine we don't have any more than 4 PRs (is that a safe assumption) and I think the commander bonus could easily be 4 (possibly not a safe assumption.

So with this fairly worst case scenario, we're still okay.

The upside to this, is that if the above scenario takes place, compared to how many points we have left tonight. It means the commander might be able to see that no scum voted at all on that day (maybe) and that the scum stayed silent. If one or two of the voters of the day were scum, that gives us a breathing room for it to almost definitely work.

I think. The commander bonus variable is a headache (and rightfully so)

[Seacore]

Does the commander know the bonus? Because if they don't, and I skimmed the rules to check, we could really fuck this up by not preparing a baseline.

The worst and probably most likely outcome of the three burners, is that there is 2 town and 1 scum. And that may not be readily obvious, if the commander doesn't know whether he has a +3 or a +8

That's my only concern, otherwise I'd be cool with burning from day 1

[Seacore]

How would it be that confusing, you managed to convey the message in 6 words?

But I definitely agree with the second half of your statement.

Lets have 2 burners today, each burning 7.

And from Day 2 on, go back to the plan.

[Seacore]

The plan

1) We kill fifi today.
2) We select two players to burn through 7 points (probably two people who have already voted for fifi) their 7th point will end with a vote on Fifi.
3) Everybody with a PR decides to either use it every night (best option) or never use it (may be only safe option for some PRs)
4) The commander observes whether they can determine if either of the burners is scum, and otherwise gathers a kind of baseline from the final number of points remaining.
5) An opportunity for Cops to identify a guilty player is given.
6) Commanders announce their results unless they were unable to determine anything about the burners.
7) We discuss who is to be lynched in the usual way.
8) We nominate three people to burn 4 points randomly and use a 5th to lynch the decided person
9) Night 2 progresses mostly as Night 1 did
10) Day 3, we give the Cops another chance before the commanders declare their results
11) Rinse and repeat, hopefully with a Doc protecting the Commander.

Vote

Yay

or

Nay

or point out your particular concenrs

[Seacore]

Is there anything to suggest a second town commander? I never even considered that possibility while reading the rules.

And it concerns me that someone can fake claim town commander. If we get two commanders giving us different results, we put everything on hold and kill them til we find scum.

[Seacore]

Any distinct problem with the 3 people burning 5 tomorrow?

[Seacore]

Mr Tolkein? But he dead!

[Seacore]

Fate

a) The mod has explicitly said that actions require

a

point, not points.

b) In a 12 player game, being able to find a scum in a group of three, is a significant advantage. And it's also the worst possible outcome of the potential outcomes with three burners.

[Seacore]

As I've mentioned before, I'm happy for one of the burners to be me, I seem to have elicited more suspicion than most other players. Any other nominations? Or cases against me being one of the burners?

[Seacore]

I was arguing for a baseline night, but others suggested we didn't need one. I figured I was missing something (like I was with your original plan yesterday) so I just spelled out their thoughts in my 'plan' and was seeking comment.

Ugh, I'm too busy right now to pull my plan apart and fix it. does somebody else want to do it?

[Seacore]

Also, in response to your response of my self nomination. It's not dumb.

I'm town. Apart from fifi, however, I seem to be the most suspected. Some town scum hunters are wasting their time building a case against me. This plan will prevent town from wasting a lynch on me, which is something I'd prefer.

[Seacore]

Yay

[Seacore]

I know the two I want for our first two burners tomorrow...

I'm not answering the rolefish unless I see a strong case for it.

1 burns 14 -- can reasonably estimate whether CP reflects 14 lost points

The problem with this is that we can only very do big ones because we have no baseline from this. We need to do no burns today. And then we can do a couple of medium ones each night after.

[Seacore]

I am a daykilling Vigilantie.

So you're asking me to claim, or you're going to kill me?

[Seacore]

Iec, you're correct in saying it would probably be enough to clear somebody on Night 1, but it doesn't help us out with later nights when we want pairs of people to burn 7 (or whatever)

Without knowing how many night actions are out there, or even how many commanders it seems, we need the baseline... I think.

[Seacore]

Dear Almaster,

Here is why you are an idiot

If I'm town, you've either outted a PR (assuming that's what it would take to keep me alive) or you've killed a town

If I'm scum, I'm going to fake claim something important, like cop, or doc. Then either the actual cop or doc will step forward, in which case you'll kill me, but you were going to do that anyway and thus I've succeeded in outing the cop, or more likely doc, if I was scum, I'd totally go doc. The doc then dies that night.
Or if the actual roleholder stays silently, to avoid this terrible thing you've caused, people know believe I'm a pro town role.

So there's really no good outcome for town if I claim. So just shoot me already, you god damn moron.

[Seacore]

You're forgetting the part where Cobalt was a contingency and McGriddle was assumed to be scum.

I.e. Hindsight