Teleportation Mafia Universe TWO (TOWN WINS)

[Elmo]

/confirm

Anyone get the reference?

Smells like Futurama, maybe? Been a while...

[Elmo]

Okay, that's interesting. Before the game started, I was thinking that each town would try and push scum out and pull townies in, sort of a tug of war. The teleporter works kind of like a vig that way. I'm not sure giving that up is worth what we get for it - forcing the mafia kill to be random every other night and get a confirmed townie every other day doesn't seem that strong in comparison.

Unless I'm misreading, the teleporter has to maintain a 2:1 push:pull ratio. So you couldn't actually pull and then pull again; you'd have to pull, push, push, pull at minimum, I think. It's kind of ambiguous, though, they "must pull once for every two teleports" but later it talking about maintaining a ratio..

mod

, does that mean they have to maintain the ratio, or that the number of teleports cannot exceed twice the number of pulls + 2? Are unsuccessful actions counted in that?

Well, that would require having a good idea of someone who's mafia, in which case we should be lynching that person instead of teleporting.

Actually, the best way to use the teleport is probably as a directed vig. That is, use it as a second lynch. The teleporter should probably just push out whoever gets the second highest number of votes when we lynch, or something. I'm not sure what we do about pulling.

I think Jack's point is quite interesting. While there's 3 of a mafia group alive, they'd probably kill in the universe where they had 2 members if they were split (unless they thought they'd be teleported out soon). If there were only two mafia alive, though, they might switch if they had better chances over there. So if we either teleported one and lynched one, or teleported two, we might not get a nightkill here, which would be a big win. That's if the other town don't send us any wee beasties, of course.

Also it's Teleportation Mafia. I kind of signed up for some teleportation antics :V

[Elmo]

For pulling we should just go for whoever their most pro-town looking player is, right?

Right, but it's difficult to discuss who to pull. Hmm, thinking about it, the thing is that we don't want the other town to win, and we don't want them to lose - if either happens, then we lose our second lynch and

our

chances of winning go down. So, at least to start out with, we don't really want to say stuff that which would help the other town, I think. There's also the point that like half of their lynches end up in our lap - we want them to contain as many townies as possible, really. If they correctly identify a townie, they're more likely to send a mafioso our way. Although if things start to look bad for them, we should probably start trying to help them, so they don't lose. Except we might not necessarily know how things are, because we won't know for sure how many mafia we've managed to palm off onto them. It's pretty weird.

This is probably all going to go incoherent once people start being teleported. Woo. I guess I can see the scummiest people going back and forth. Maybe the universes would have a difference of opinion on who was scummier and we could set up a trade proper?

Does that help answer the question?

I think so. Thanks!

You know what would be really awesome? A race to see who can lynch first. ^_^

[Elmo]

I think strat discussion is passing the point of diminishing returns. If we were discussing a breaking strategy, it might be worth it, but even if we can get an edge, we still need to decide who to lynch; I lost the thread around modpost 146 and I haven't sufficient enthusiasm to find it again. In that vein,

vote jack

Unvote, Vote:Kairyuu - Who's to say you weren't scum proposing a sub optimal plan?

This is really weird.

It's clear that Kai isn't just pulling stuff out of thin air, seeing as the mod essentially confirmed he

did

break the setup pre-game. If he's town, the first thing to do would be to see if we could still derive some advantage from that idea, right? Even if he's wrong, people tend to be attached to ideas they come up with, so thinking he's wrong isn't sufficient to start suspecting him, in my view.

But moreso, when comparing two options, it's fairly obvious that we need to look at both and choose the best one - my initial reaction was "I'm not sure giving that up is worth what we get for it" when looking at Kai's plan. So if you're worried that he's proposing a deliberately bad plan, why don't you point out why it's bad, or try and compare the two? He talks up the alternative, "That potentially results in mafia killing other mafia, especially since the ultimate goal is to win in both universes" / "We could potentially win by the end of day 2" - both of which seem rather optimistic. He sounds like he's trying to sell it, to me. That, and basically trying to manipulate the other universe against Kai's plan.. I don't like that at all.

Now, if I were a scumbag, and someone started talking about a breaking strategy that got fixed but could still give the town a significant advantage, and I didn't really fully understand the details (I don't think this is uncharitable given comments from a bunch of people) so I couldn't evaluate how bad it was, I might knee-jerk - I might panic slightly, and act roughly like Jack. When it emerged that it's probably difficult to implement and might not be that strong, I'd think perhaps I'd overplayed my hand a little.. I think that would explain his subsequent U-turn nicely. I just have great difficulty believing that JackTown would react quite like that to Kai.

As for the Maelyn bandwagon, I'm loving it. Anyone who self-votes is not scummy per say, but is volunteering for moar pressure.

Why do you think we should give it to them?

A footnote.. we don't have a doctor, so I don't see it as a good idea to broadcast my town reads, especially early on. Just a thought.

[Elmo]

*yells at mafiascum.net & real life*

DocPotter: No, just that he did break the setup pre-game, and would propose this plan if he were town. Therefore he can't be scummy for it, even if someone personally thinks it's a bad plan, since he would probably do the same if he were town; it's a null tell at worst.

Jahudo: I don't understand how being bandwagoned would help her do that, though. Do you think that, if she's town, her being bandwagoned is pro-town? I don't get it - if you don't think she's scummy, why do you want a wagon on her?

I have ani, anon, and ellibereth as town. Jack, Doc, and mae scum. Others I'm still working on.

I'm shuffling jack lower on my scum list. He gets points for bringing up new ideas, even if they're not all on the mark.

Sorry, what new ideas did he bring up between 188 and 236 that would justify doing that? He'd pretty much said his piece

before

188, that I can see - it looks like you're suddenly voicing less suspicion of Jack for no apparent reason, right after I started attacking him. Why is that, Lowell?

But Elmo, my "knee jerk" reaction was to a plan that didn't take into account the basic rules of the game.

Uh, how? He accounted for everything I can see; the rules were ambiguous, and when the mod clarified, he updated the plan in response. I think that, at bare minimum, it would look dangerous enough to JackScum to get a reaction.

unless the plan being argued against

is actually better

, you have a tough time arguing that someone is scum for promoting an alternate plan.

If I catch you pouring a bottle labelled "poison" into my coffee, it doesn't matter if I actually happen to keep milk in there, right? It's your intent that's important. You pulled a U-turn between post 96 and 156 - you very clearly switch from attacking him to going "oh, I'm not really attacking him". I think you freaked out slightly, then realised your stance wasn't credible.

Deadline: February 8th, 2010 at 11:00am EST

Teleportation Mafia Rules:
3. Each day has a deadline of 2 weeks.

If the deadline is reached, there will be no lynch

I would like to quote this, especially in light of site problems. Votes or even some kind of comment on Jack would be really nice from, like, most people at this point. I'd like to go over the game again, but the site's been just horrible lately, so, uh... yea, we'll see.

[Elmo]

No, they weren't ambiguous. They clearly stated that the mafia teams were opposed to each other. I quoted that bit in my post. So the knee jerk reaction is to a plan that doesn't take into account basic features of the game. Why would a townie not have a knee jerk reaction to that?

Because it did. He knew that, and he probably took into account the

very small

chance they would crosskill each other, like I explained to you.

That all sounds like a lame plan that wouldn't be fun. Besides, the mafia groups are enemies yes? So it sounds like we'd want to mix them. And if we teleport the last mafioso from this universe then we win.

Letting the teleporter decide for themselves actually gives the mafia some motivation to eliminate the people who suspect them, unless they want to be transported...

Like, as opposed to... being lynched? Also: given the tiny odds that any one particular person is the teleporter? Seriously?

No, it's not the best plan:

At night, your team may choose to shoot one person. You may shoot someone

in any universe that your team has a player alive in.

Win condition: You win when your team wins in EITHER universe you are in. You win a universe when you have

eliminated all other mafia team members

We want to transfer one of our mafiosos to the other universe, and have them transfer one of theirs to ours. That potentially results in mafia killing other mafia, especially since the ultimate goal is to win in both universes

Those are just horrible reasons not to go with Kai's plan. The mafia are highly unlikely to crosskill at all, and even if they did, it doesn't particularly help

us

if they crosskill in the other universe, as long as they're gone from this one. You can't just say "if you don't agree with me, you don't understand the setup" and expect people not to call bullshit, because it is; your stated reasons for going against Kai's plan at that point were terrible. When someone gives terrible, unnatural reasons for arguing against a plan, the logical conclusion is that

they're looking for ways to argue against it

rather than genuinely disagreeing. I cannot believe you, as town, would not take two minutes to think about e.g. how likely a crosskill actually is and therefore subsequently use that as a supporting reason for your very vocal stance against Kai's plan. You also tried to manipulate the other universe into not going along with Kai's plan, forcing us to do the same - a townie has absolutely no business doing that, ever.

If I catch you pouring a bottle labelled "poison" into my coffee, it doesn't matter if I actually happen to keep milk in there, right?

It's your intent that's important.

But it does if

I

keep milk in there. Because then my intent is to pour milk. You would still have to show that my plan was bad, the plan that everyone else currently agrees we should do.

No, I emphatically do

not

have to show that. All I have to show, which I repeatedly have done, is that your immediate reaction as scum would probably have been to oppose it in the way you did. The entire point is that you find the bottle and don't know what's inside, as was perfectly obvious from what I said. If you

think

it's poison, you're trying to harm me, regardless of what the actual outcome is. For example, in the post-game here, Goatrevolt (mafia) says "ironically, the plan I originally proposed, which involved everyone claiming their color on day 1 would have worked out best for the town". Scum sometimes do things that are genuinely pro-town because they intend to hurt the town; it's intent that you have to judge. I don't think, at the time you argued against it, that you could have fully understood the consequences of following the plan as stated - certainly you didn't know precisely how the teleporter worked since that was left ambiguous by the mod, and we only discovered that later. So however you slice it, if you did argue for what was pro-town, you very definitely did not to it based on an accurate view of reality, and hence it's ridiculous to base it on the outcome alone, whatever that is. All that is left is your likely intentions in doing so, and I've said why they're scummy.

oh and Jack's vote on obv. town Nicodemus was redonkulous.

This, in fact his voting record overall is fairly terrible:

81 - vote: Kise - Random (?)
96 - vote: Kairyuu - Kai's plan
170 - vote: DocPotter - "Gut"
196 - vote: Nicodemus - No stated reason
217 - vote: fhqwhgads - A contradiction that wasn't
222 (my attack here)
260 - vote: Nicodemus - No stated reason
279 - vote: Doc Potter - No stated reason
305 - vote: DeathRowKitty - I agree with Lowell!
331 - vote: Elmo - Your case on me is bad, OMGUS!

Aside from the OMGUS vote, I can only find one place, the vote on fhqwhgads - which was retracted immediately after fhq replies - where he's actually given original reasoning.

You pulled a U-turn between post 96 and 156 - you very clearly switch from attacking him to going "oh, I'm not really attacking him". I think you freaked out slightly, then realised your stance wasn't credible.

This shows you are skimming. Why do you ask people to comment on me when you haven't read my posts myself? Check my ISO 18 and 23. Check ISO 10-13 and see if it looks like I'm arguing that Kai is mafia.

Are you seriously saying "my posts mean whatever I tell you regardless of what I actually wrote, and if you disagree you aren't reading properly"!? Look:

Unvote,Vote:Kairyuu - Who's to say you weren't scum proposing a sub optimal plan? It'd be nice not to be transported over to the other universe and killed by chance wouldn't it?

That wasn't paranoia. When people vote using reasoning that could just as easily apply to themselves I often oblige them.

That is, accusing him of hypocrisy;

Kairyuu says mafia want to promote a poor plan, so I am mafia. I say by that logic, since his plan isn't good, he must be mafia.

Look. It's an attack. You're attacking Kairyuu. You are trying to discredit him and undermine his plan. It's an attack. There's no other word for it unless you want to consult an thesaurus for symonyms for "attack". You cannot be serious. This is driving me UP THE WALL because people seem to be buying it and it's so obviously not true. If you don't think someone's scum, why vote them and suggest they're scum? Just

why

?

Jack. I don't get your reason or your vote. Why skip the largest wagon close to deadline. Especially with a VT claim. Why skip the (current) second most likely wagon to go before the deadline?

This; it's because he doesn't seriously want to lynch me, he's only voting me because he wants to counter-attack and call me scummy. It's pretty bizarre for a townie to be voting me at this point; it's convenient as scum, since if he gets lynched, he only attacks someone who's probably not scum with him anyway. If he tried to drive a wagon on someone else, that would make them look town if he got lynched.

Seriously, Jack has "the play" pretty much tattooed on his forehead. I'm not sure how many different ways I'm supposed to say it before I even get a murmured comment on him from most of the game. I'm not a cheerleader for DocPotter's play (I haven't read the meta fwiw), but Jack is just so much better. Let's gooo.

[Elmo]

Real life is kicking my ass. The amount of stuff to chew through itt isn't helping; I'm gonna give myself ~72 hours to get fully caught up & happy, or I'm most likely requesting replacement because it's just not getting done at the moment, and by now I'm behind with stuff more important than mafia.

The site was glacial again for me for several hours, which doesn't help matters. I dunno if this goes through or not.