Teleportation Mafia Universe ONE (MAFIA A WINS!)

[Plum]

/confirmatory

[Plum]

Me and dgb in the same universe? I hope we don't make it explode!

Yeah, this universe is totally awesome.

[Plum]

Lol.

Universe TWO is discussing the game and strategies to make the game easier while we're discussing how cool our avatars and whether or not we should change them. We're obviously gonna win this

Agreed, minus the sarcasm. We're already the cooler and awesomer Universe; they're playing catchup with their strategy discussion. Plain old playing Mafia will win the day here.

Maybe I'll change my avatar for the occasion . . . hmmm.

[Plum]

Hah, they're looking at us like we're idiots. Seriously, though, they're making a big deal over some very basic things. We just want to get the scumbags out of our Universe however we can get it. That means lynches go towards getting rid of scum and so do Teleports. We can vote on Teleport Targets, sure, but in the end the Teleporter is the Teleporter and it's up to the Teleporter. It's rather like voting on a Vig kill. Obviously pulls have to come in somewhere, but the basic point remains.

There's nothing revolutionary in this. There's no reason for the other Universe to make a fuss over this and try to diss us.

[Plum]

Heya, was out yesterday and most of today, then was dragged off to watch the State of the Union Address.

Oh my god I'm going to be prosecuted by the feminist group.

ABR! Long time no see.

If you care enough about my scumtells, there are multiple people here who have had experience with me and could read me as well as anybody. For various reasons, it would be stupid to tell you all of my scumtells, as if I were scum in this game my scumtells are such that I could actually do the opposite instead, and, furthermore, would turn this game into a disgusting and even more confusing exercise in avoiding looking like I'm committing those scumtells and trying to piece together suspicions from among people trying specifically to avoid the behaviors they've listed. In short, it'd be a counterproductive waste of time and brain space.

If you care even more than that, there's always the meta game; you're invited to play it.

Though DGB is odd giving about three distinctly different reactions to the same point ('share your scumtells and if not, explain why').

You know who'd be eager to give a list of scumtells?

5KuMz

That's who.

We should lynch everyone that answered.

Crud. You may well be right. As scum I probably would have spend half an hour refining an answer to that where I could stick to avoiding the scumtells and sound truthy, to try to look helpful and pro-town. Ironically I agree with the point by citing my own scum behavior, but you get what I'm saying.

Though having said that - - - scumvibes on DGB. Though Myk missed something pretty obvious when he explained his reasons for voting her - the "other than" clause was clear enough - I don't happen to think it's a good scum indicator and do have a town vibe on the guy.

I don't have enough info on EK to be certain that she really can't get into the theory specific to this game or she's scum who can't get into it because she's scum. She posts a few more times I'll be able to use the content as a decent-ish barometer (meta!) but I can definitely hold that for a few days so I have actual info to analyze.

ABR, why the whole shebang with "Someone tell me who's scummy" and then "evilsnail vote".

Vote: DGB

This is largely a gut feeling that DGB isn't herself, which in the past has been a scum-indicator for her. The closest I can come to it is discussing the different responses (which may be one response and two branches of another, possibly), but the real difference is an esoteric tone thing which I can't fully delve into now because Pom wants to use the computer and I'll take up looking at Raskol and Evils and such ASAP and excuse the run-on sentence because she only gave me one more to work with.

[Plum]

Heya ABR!

[Plum]

Mmmmm. I've heard the "claiming town" argument; it was used against me once when I mentioned something; in context, EK's context seems similar (and yes, i

was

Town in that case) (and my accuser was scum, but that's another barrel of monkeys. In any case, it is

not

a strong tell.

[Plum]

I would rather have the scum forced to agree with our town reads and concentrate attacks on themselves and people who look like scum. Their options are limited and increases the chance they have to buss or if we mislynch then they're all on the wagon.

When you're scum, narrowing your lynch pool is death. You need your options open.

This this this this and this. I've seen EK caught by meta and I don't think this is it at all.

Plum and ABR are both lurkerscumz, so it's going to be especially fun.

Uh huh, uh huh. Why didn't you respond to my attack of a few days ago, might I ask?

That said, I'm really not feeling this game; need a going over it again.

Wait one darn moment . . .

Shouldn't you be fighting scum, in stead of another universe? And I linked Kairyuus post that gives us a confirmed player: that is exploiting the mechanic in a town way.

But if we let too many players switch universe, things might get very confusing, do we agree?

Is this a subtle argument against a proposed way of dealing with the mechanic while trying to look like he's behind it? This doen't look like an "Oh, I like it except couldn't it go bad if X", it looks like "wow, awesome way to do it, we could totally exploit this in favor of the Town . . . but I'm sure it's not as convenient as it looks. I'm sure you all agree!" It's the

pandering

of the tone while subtly trying to dissuade from a plan of action for no good or adequately explained reason (seriously, dude, about as many people are going to be switching places whatever strategy we follow) that makes my stomach turn. I've just successfully erased - reversed a vibe on the guy.

Unvote; Vote: Mykonian

. In fact, I'm still trying to figure out what Myko's proposed strategy

was

. Oh, no Teleportation . . . and then this sort of half-assed endorsement/denouncement of Kairyuu's pull-the-Teleporters plan. And even though he's against all Teleporting, when asked he endorses Kai's plan. How how how the hell does that work, may I ask?

This is why I wanted my post quoted on the other side: it is senseless to shove scummy players between the universes,

it only makes both universes more likely to lose against town.

Care to explain what you meant by the bolded, Myko?

I am fighting scum, entirely in this universe. My vote was for Plum, who I feel was buddying with this universe, by trying to foster a communal hatred of the other universe.

Actually, your vote was on Flare. And I guess I can see where your interpretation was coming from at the beginning of the game; I saw myself engaging in the mild intra-Universe trashtalking going on, but fine.

Am underwhelmed by Flare's OMGUS RVS vote. Meh.

Do not get a scum read off Gayle's position on the RVS. Some people value the RVS a lot a sa source of info/springboard, and I don't see anything so far from that as to call it anything but a nulltell. After more reading, I'm even more sure that it's not actively scummy on Gayle's part; definitely null. Maybe shades of Town, but I've been known to see things.

And now after having found that evil of Myk's above I'm wondering if Myk's BS "major scumslip" of DGB's he's so certain of is really scummy and not just totally clueless (honestly, I may have excused it before partly due to a sort of too-scummy-to-be-scum feeling . . . but I;ve seen scumbags make out totally fake scumtells and ascribe greater certainty to their flawed logic than a sane townie ever would).



Flare, however, is being annoying and possibly scummy.

FOS

Need to go, more later.

[Plum]

I might or might not be able to read and post tonight; I got home late because I volunteered for jury duty and the game I'm Modding needs a lot of my attention right now.

[Plum]

I had court again today . . . but my school's going on to the county semifinals so I should be back with a big reread tomorrow or Thursday night, will see what I can get done tonight. Sorry about the absence, again.

[Plum]

Hey guys. I've been lurking, and announcing that I was, due to some events this week which I didn't anticipate (namely, being asked to act as juror and spy for the seniors' Mock Trial team Monday and Tuesday nights, and then having to do all the work on a project I need done this week last night. So yeah.

Aaaaanyway. First of all, I do not consider Myk's "slip" conclusive, especially after his explanation. Slips are rarely clear-cut enough to deal with as strong evidence, and it really was

not

my main point against Myk. I would

not

have unvoted DGB and voted Myk only for that. My main beef with him was an apparent disjoint between his opinion on Kairyuu's plan which involved Teleporting in a specific pattern &c. (that it was good) vs. his preferred plan, which involved no Teleportation at all (implying that Teleportation is bad); seeming to both try to get credit for approving Kai's plan but subtly trying to dissuade us from using it for no good or explained reason at all.

@DGB

Why didn't you respond to my initial attack on you and why didn't you comment on my question asking same?

I am not so enthralled by the initial reactions of CSL and DGB. From my knowledge of CSL, I would venture to say that he's probably not DGB's buddy. I am somewhat more comfortable with Fishy's response, probably.

I honestly don't know why I typed town, could be because I was arguing it would make town lose, or just because I was tired. I have honestly no idea.

Hmmm. In the context, I can see how the intended idea "it only makes both universes towns more likely to lose [against scum]" could be transposed by accident into "it only makes both universes more likely to lose against town." It's a point but a fairly minor one; it's barely a scumtell and close to inconclusive.

On it's own I would call Myk's strategy position a nulltell. In context with a good alternative plan which . . . I explained this all above.

Kai's strategy was to create a confirmed towny by letting the claimed teleporters change play on that moment. These then had to be killed by the scum. (this later proved to be an impossible tactic because of the rules)

There was also talking about sending scummy players to the other universe. These stay in the game, are not confirmed scum or town, etc: these confuse.

So while I argued that we shouldn't do that, the plan to create confirmed townies was good. I argued against sending scummy players, but in favor using Kai's idea to make confirmed townies.

This would all be perfectly fine if you didn't press for no Teleportation whatsoever. Am I incorrect?

there is a suspicion I could be scum and suddenly everything I say is invalid. Plum, simple solution: look at the point itself and see if you agree it is a point against DGB. It is that way always: you look at what other people say and see how much you yourself agree with it.

I thought the point was based on a totally and fairly clearly incorrect reading and interpretation of DGB's words. I had a town-vibe on you at the time, so I dismissed what ordinarily I might have pressed pretty hard (that and the more pressing scumread on DGB). I know it wasn't a valid point against DGB. I dismissed it as a VI moment on your part (we all have those) but after reconsidering you had to reconsider the stark terms you stated a very very wrong interpretation of DGB's words and how you pushed it as a definitive scumslip. So yeah.

@ Gayle: I did not follow Plum. I found it on my own. However, Plum (and whoever else voted myko) already posted the "slip" and wuoting the post might not have done any good.

Wow, I'm not done with the 12th page yet, and I go to this page, and see that. That's one of the biggest slips I have seen in my life!

Vote: mykonian

You found it on your own? Really? Then why did you need to go to this page to see it? And if you did see it on this page, how were you not following me?

Unvote; Vote: CSL

Dangit, someone's gotta be scum here. Seriously.

@ mykonian: quoting would've done MORE harm.

unvote

The vote has served it's purpose.

@CSL:

WHO was your top suspect at this time and WHAT purpose did you intend your vote to serve???

This vote-switching and general tone reminds me of what I saw in CSL when I recently Modded a game he was in; it's since ended. And he was scum. Veyr erratic, got pressured easily about votes (though then again it was a very delicate 2-on-2 endgame scenario. Does anyone here have anything resembling a conclusive meta on CSL at all???).

Still and all, Myk says it best:

CSL: Bullshit. First it was the most important thing in the whole game. Now, you haven't answered my questions, you don't explain at all why quoting would have made it worse, you don't respond to accusations from Gayle, and above all, you UNVOTE.

I think we should cut the fat and thin down the numbers before using the teleportation. Sending all the suspicious players to one universe could be a feasible idea later on in the game when we have claimed power roles.

Have you seen Kairyuu's plan which involves getting each Universe a confirmed Townie fairly late in the game? See if you can look it up and get back to me, please.

ITT DGB recalls wrong about the legit case on CSL. Minus the cherry on top, and you're in danger of losing the caramel sauce if you're not a good girl. Also I am still not comfortable with you in this game, DGB. You'd be a lynch I wouldn't frown at at all.

Taking Raskol's claimed Meta knowledge against ABR into account.

I've got no idea why DGB is so strident on ABR/Myk scumbuddies. I know she likes to do that (even though I hate that stuff on Day 1 especially with only extremely tenuous evidence if any at all) but damn, I find it so unhelpful.

See, this is the stuff I was too tired to want to plow through after getting home late and tired on Monday, and like half of it is useless to me at the moment anyway. Grrrr.

And ABR's utter and shameless uselessness and lack of scumhunting is arrrrgh, and if all is going as usual we have at

least

one scumbag I barely realize exists and is not on my radar at all and I do not want to deal with that sort of thing.

The plum is town comment makes me sudder do to our last game together and that said comment

I remember that one. I think after this and other events DGB has learned some sort of lesson. Or is buddying to me. I certainly know the temptation of buddying to her from recent past experience. On another note, I approve of your DGB case. I am not sold on the EK case, have different vibes (that is, pretty Townie vibes).

I am getting irritated or something about Rhinox's tendency to focus so heavily on past events. I'm trying not to do the same myself despite the amount I need to catch up on (and really, I wasn't keen about having to catch up on like 15 pages myself, okay?). I don't mind that he feels his original case on Myk is very strong, and I don't mind if he thinks that the slip-or-not which I found isn't a real tell; that's all fine and dandy. But interesting stuff came out in the discussion whatever you thought of the slip-or-not and Rhinox barely touched a bit of it, and didn't touch other current stuff like lurky/non-scumhunting ABR, like . . . well, I'd be satisfied with anything so long as there was a bit more emphasis on the current. I'm not saying old scumhunting isn't strong enough or whatever, but that attention should be more consistently applied to also addressing the game as it evolves in real time.

I do appreciate Myk's attempt to use analysis of motivation when attacked. I may be biased, but I think he approached that in a pretty Townie way.

@ABR

do you ever scumhunt at all? Why does it feel like I asked you this in the game we were in together a while back? Why do I seem to recall that you flipped scum in that game, eh? And what was with the unvote, or the original EK vote, for that matter. Basically, WTH, explain.

Also Rhinox's CSL vote comes hell outta nowhere.

@Rhinox

: Why vote CSL there, and what made you set aside the origina case against Myk you clung to for a while with barely a word about him in your post where you unvoted and voted CSL????

It annoys me that no one seems to be able to do the very basic reading needed to understand where Myk's CSL vote came from. Hint, it's the same place mine is coming from.

Farside I still like the DGB case, and after Myk's responses and explanations re: my vote on him I'd much much rather a DGB lynch than a Myk lynch. I notice DGB

never

commented on my original case on her or answered when I asked her why she didn't, as I explained at the top of this post. Seems like DGB-town would be more likely to engage in the conversation with me on that point and scum DGB might be more keen to ignore it.

I can tell the difference from being scum and that's that I'm actually enjoying a putting together a mega-huge catchup post. And it won't take till one in the morning too, I'll bet.

I'm not strongly convinced by Farside's Flare case, but the way he responds directly after her post is awful funny and not more than negligibly scummy, too.

I think Town-DGB reads more than this, but not sure. It

is

hard to read her, and my final determinant on the subject is that if it's not playing like DGB, even if you can't be sure it's playing scummy you lynch it.

Unvote; Vote: DGB

I'd like to see her flip scum. CSL can be reevaluated after her lynch and flip.

I volunteered for jury duty[...].

Real life lynches are more important than play lynches

We found the defendant guilty as charged, but only because the defense was inept. The next night the prosecution was great but the defense wasn't inept and we found Not Guilty. [/interesting RL happenings]

Raskol feels fairly prob Town, as does Farside (a LOT) and to a slightly lesser degree EK and maybe Gayle. The players I'd be happy to see swinging are DGB, CSL, ABR - basically, if you can abbreviate to three letters you look pretty scummy here. Rhinox I'm iffy on. Myk vibes are Town, hesitant to commit on that because of certain actions which don't include the slip-or-not. Fishy is fishy.

Yeah the "QT argument" is the exact same thing you said in War in Heaven...when you were scum. Looks like you're a one trick monkey DGB. Universe II seems ambiguous to losing you as well. Probably your scumpal doc rooting for you.

ABR

can you explain more? I've seen Town-DGB speculate that someone had a scum QT/were being daycoached by a scumbuddy, but not sure if I've seen her insinuate a specific hypothetical scumpair to be doing it. Nevermind, I see you provided links. LOVELY. Also, while I'm at it, can you scumhunt more? I agree with your read on DGB; but no need to stop when you're on a roll (assuming you are). Y'know?

@DGB

Links where you speculated on two specific people being in a scum WT together when you were town, and ASAP please.

plum (lurking again?)

Not for laughs and giggles, I'll tell you that.

I can barely bring to mind anything about evilsnail in this game. Which makes me want to see more of him. Same goes for Ojanen.

I have seen DGB make the scum-QT argument as town. LAL mafia comes ot mind but I'm sure I've seen it elsewhere.

Links please? I'd like to pick apart the differences and similarities between your claimed meta and ABR's. Thanks.

And I don't recall having seen touchy DGB-Town.

Pops, I could probably get a read on you and some good scumhunting would get done between us if you post more and substantially.

Plum's avvie is intriguing.

How so? I'm interested in your interest. [/avatar conversation]

@evilsnail

: What do you think of Raskol? I want this answeres

ASAP

.

As annoying as DGB's play might be, I think she is town, as evidenced by her outright refusal to change the way she plays no matter how scummy anyone might find it.

I think the latter is a function of DGB being DGB, not DGB being Town. Eh.

Fishy brings up a good point about DGB in this post. If DGB was so concerned that answering mykos question was scummy, why wasn't she paying more attention to see who all actually answered the question. That would be an excellent opportunity for a townie to catch scum. Instead, DGB was lazy about it. It makes it seem like scum lazy pretend scum hunting. A townie genuinely scum hunting would have been keeping a close eye out for other players committing the tell.

QFT. BUT. Why still voting CSL? Your vote smells weak and your posts don't give me huge Townie vibes. Not major scum vibes, but overall . . .

Ojanen's catching-up post, however, is hugely pleasing and feels Townie. And I should't drop the CSL case either. Steps in after absence after a bit more suspicion on him and makes an explanation post which is utterly incomprehensible. Ugh.

Ojanen's posts are even more Townie. Sudden desire to engage in a bond of trust goes way way up. Throw Ojanen onto my prob Town pile.

Feels like Pops.Farside is Town-on-Town. Not sure. But. Farside's posting style makes me think she's Town, slight meta base on that one.

Oooooh, confirm vote by Rhinox feels weirdly scummy, especially because it seems like trying to appeal to Ojanen, who recently said he looked v. scummy. I;d like this guy lynched sometime, okay everyone?

A snail or a fish lynch is good enough. I can't count how many scummy things there are in there.

Vote: evilsnail

I am not even going to ask at this point. The scumminess in this game in making me sick. ABR at this point feels somewhat less scummy than before, not worthy of my bottom three.

I'm starting to have to skim some parts quickly because I'll be sent to bed pretty soon.

All right. I'd prefer a DGB lynch. If we can't get that, CSL. If not, Rhinox. Again, I think it's less than likely that CSL and DGB could be buddies. Might be wrong.

Good night, all.

[Plum]

Is this a suggestion to lynch ME first to better evaluate CSL, whom you have also voted on before?

Absolutely not. It's a suggestion to lynch my top suspect first and reevaluate my second suspect (who I've said is less than likely to be your scumbuddy) afterwards with the info from the flip. Please don't spin my words.

Plum, I read your long post and I have this sinking feeling that you just WANT to vote me. You have no solid reason; all of it is fluff talk because for some reason, you feel like voting me, because it's more convenient to get me out of the way (as I hunt scum like a spinning dervish) than a merely useless player like CSL. I can see why I'd be a lynch priority for scum (especially since for some reason I'm under some suspicion, why not exploit this vulnerability to a most convenient lynch), and that CSL would be the #2 easy lynch.

I might be wrong. If my case doesn't make you really happy, add it to my prior case on you and consider a healthy slice of gut that this is

not

town-DGB I'm seeing. You're my top suspect, and if CSL is useless, I'm sure you can be hella dangerous scum, okay?

CSL's actions remind me of CSL-scum in a game I recently finished Modding. Other scumminess has been shown. I'd like to do a fuller meta evaluation of CSL at some point, yes.

There is a lot of spreading suspicion around.

In ~15 pages a lot of people did/said things I found suspicious.

You want to vote me, so even if I provide you 3 such links you're not unvoting. I'm too juicy a Day 1 lynch for the scum to pass up. Oh I see. You noted that elvis DID indeed vouch for me. And yet you demand links. Why? I'm guessing it's because you don't want to give up your foregone conclusion/townie-frame.

Dude, I know you do the general thing with telling people to go back to their QTs or saying that they might be coached as Town. I know that well; I've seen you do it. My point here is do you argue that two specific people are interacting in a scum QT together as Town or not? I specifically stated that that was what I was looking for. It's not my strongest or only feeling against you, DGB, but I would like a specific answer and so far the only examples I've seen have been ABR's with DGB-scum. Would I unvote you if I saw three such links? Probably not, because it's not my strongest point against you (by which I mean it's not what gives me the strongest DGB is scum impression).

Can you please explain to me where your scum list is different from your OMGUS list?

EK's provided links don't give an example of the specific thing I'm looking for, but thanks anyway, can't hurt.

Let's not do Kairyuu's plan. Seems like scum will abuse it and I don't want the teleporters to claim.

Do you see the appeal in gaining a confirmed Townie for both universes late in their respective games? Explain further, please.

I am really not a fan of Plum voting CSL, then unvoting and voting DGB in the same post. What is the point of voting someone and then unvoting them in the same post? This smells so bad to me.

Uh huh. Recall that I was going over ~15 pages of info. My opinion changed strongly enough to switch my vote (CSL vote > Mykonian vote) and happened again over that course of pages later (DGB vote> CSL vote). What was the point? I didn't feel the need to erase my stream-of-consciousness votes and thoughts as the situation evolved. Consider me posting in regular time instead of having to catch up all at once and me changing my vote during that time. That's totally normal, and that's what you're seeing in condensed form.

She did this last game where she said something about scum talking during the day and was town. I'm wondering why plum is bringing it up since he was in the same game.

Was she in the same game? Are you sure? If so, we have Scumplum.

I'm a bit sick. I say this because my head is not as clear or wanting to go do a search. But didn't we just finish PYP where you made that comment to xyl and ek made the same comment in that game.
Plum replaced out and haylen replaced in plum's space but was scum in that game.
I'm pretty sure I'm right on this.

See the above, please. Then get back to me.

Re: EK's case. It's heavily flawed, possibly slightly scummy - eh, I;ll put the fact of it at null for now.

OMG. Backtrack much since the myko wagon failed? She says the main reason for her myko vote was NOT the slip, but his view on teleportation. If that's true, then why is she unvoting him? Have his views of teleportation changed?

His explanation about his views on Teleportation and why he said what he said nullified the scum level. It wasn't straight-up because he didn't want any Teleporting. I explained that. Last night as I read his responses to the wagon on him and his responses to my points on that in particular, it seemed that I had partially misinterpreted him, specifically in the actions I found scummy. He seemed to be contradictorily looking like an approver of a pro-Town plan which involved Teleportation and subtly dissuading from it, and pushing no Teleportation whatsoever. He explained, after the wagon started:

Kai's strategy was to create a confirmed towny by letting the claimed teleporters change play on that moment. These then had to be killed by the scum. (this later proved to be an impossible tactic because of the rules)

There was also talking about sending scummy players to the other universe. These stay in the game, are not confirmed scum or town, etc: these confuse.

So while I argued that we shouldn't do that, the plan to create confirmed townies was good. I argued against sending scummy players, but in favor using Kai's idea to make confirmed townies.

This reconciles his positions and makes me feel that what I saw was not scummy, as it first appeared.

So then she votes CSL.

Yes, because while Myk was explaining and looking thoroughly less scummy, CSL was acting hella scummy.

Then she says's rhinox made a bad vote on CSL. A defense of CSL while she votes him??

It looked like it came out of nowhere, with no reference to the earlier Myk vote Rhinox had seemed fond of. It referenced voting CSL for some reasons inan earlier post, but it seemed Rhinox had said very little about CSL previously. It looked odd and kinda out of nowehere. That made me suspicious. Rhinox had some responses to me, and as I don't have too much time to spare right now I'm leaving Rhinox's responses to be addressed tomorrow night, hopefully.

DGD: In PYP I thought your reason for voting Tony - that only scum would have thought of choosing Framer, or admitting to such - was wrong; the QT thing didn't bother me at all. I did not hang onto that "slip" of yours; I refuted it.

@EK:

I don't think plum is scum. Her switching of votes mid post was likely because she was making the post as she read along. As for myko, as the game moves along old reasons for suspicions often become less important. In short, opinions change.

This is basically what was going on.

More later.

[Plum]

Here's one. There are probably a few more I could find if I looked, if you like.

[Plum]

Unvote

. No counterclaim here. It would seem I was wrong about DGB. It's been known to happen.

And ABR's reaction is hella scummy so yeah. In either case, my other suspect didn't have nearly as scummy a response to DGB's claim and is not about to be lynched.

Vote: ABR

, though it would seem on preview, that this is a mere formality.

How so? I'm interested in your interest. [/avatar conversation]

The girl in the picture looks very mysterious.

Also I have a crush on Plum but shhhhh.

I guess I'm not the only one who thinks that in anime style even guys can look kinda girly (it's supposed to be a guy; Gayle is right once again).

That's cute.

[Plum]

I'm glad I got shipped out, mostly.

Hard to believe that even definitely not looking my Towniest and with lots of people finding me scummy I still almost drew the NK, though.