SWN II: The Curse of the Nekomata (Game over!)

[Kairyuu]

vote: Parama

Policy lynching is, in and of itself, scummy.

FoS: RayFrost

Same reason.

[Kairyuu]

vote: Parama

Policy lynching is, in and of itself, scummy.

FoS: RayFrost

Same reason.

Policy lynching/vigging is actually really townie

I agree about policy vigging, but personal experience tells me that policy lynches help scum more than town, so the suggestion of one is a scumtell to me.

A policy lynch gives exactly the same probability of hitting scum as a random lynch. In addition to that, it provides a perfect excuse for scum to join the wagon without attracting suspicion, and even acts as a sort of "free mislynch" if the target is town. Finally, even if the target of the policy lynch in question is scum, it is likely that the scumteam will be more than happy to cut that player from their ranks to avoid being incriminated while attempting to keep them afloat later on in the game.

I have supported a policy lynch exactly once since I started playing, and it worked near perfectly for me as scum. Mastin claimed death miller vig in Mean Mod Lovefest (Large theme modded by BM) and I was able to spend the next two game Days hiding behind pushing his policy lynch without drawing any real suspicion. So not only was I able to remove the threat of a vig based only on policy, I was able to do it without using up a scumkill or attracting suspicion.

I welcome a counterargument, but it's unlikely to sway me on this point.

@sykedoc: <3 you too.

[Kairyuu]

@LlamaFluff: Alternately, you can just lynch those people for other reasons than policy to force the people involved to actually take a stance on WHY they want the person lynched. Personally I consider that to be a much more effective way of getting rid of the people who would normally fall under the policy lynch category.

As for the Mastin situation, I really don't want to get into this argument. I could read Mastin extremely easily and found him to be a benefit to the games he was in as soon as he started playing seriously. People who blindly tried to policy lynch him irritated me, as did people who insulted him outright. The Death Note game should be evidence enough of that given the open hostility between Lamont and me when he wouldn't lay off.

@SSK: If you're not restricted from posting links, a link to the specific translating website you're using would be rather helpful.

[Kairyuu]

@Sanhora: Because I've played with Ray before, whereas Parama I don't have any meta on. A simple choice of pressuring the unknown rather than the known.

@Fishy: So because I'm arguing from a perspective generally taken as pro-town I'm scummy. That's called the Too Townie fallacy. Try again.

@tubby: Post restriction I can see. Post restriction AND millerhood is a bit of a stretch.

FoS: tubby

That may or may not turn into a vote once I actually run your posts through a translator later.

@nul: No lynch is not an option except in very specific situations. I expect a detailed explanation for your choice in your next post.

[Kairyuu]

Well now. Consider me stupid.

[Kairyuu]

@Fishy: The problem being that there is no difference between what you say and what I say. By acknowledging that my stance is considered to be pro-town you are also acknowledging that by arguing it I appear pro-town. You are then following that up with the statement that I am scum because of it. The Too Townie fallacy covers cases where a person is suspected because their arguments are supposedly contrived with the purpose of appearing pro-town, which is another way of saying that the person in question is acting pro-town so they must be scum.

Also please note that as either alignment my goal is to get my opponents lynched, not to look overly pro-town. As town I'd much rather lynch scum and get painted as scummy because of it than prevent my own lynch, and as scum getting my target lynched is top priority, even if I have to take heat to do it.

Oh, and as a sidenote:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10122
^^Me as town supporting a policy vig of Nat as an alternative to a policy lynch, which I opposed.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11819
^^Me as scum hiding behind a policy lynch of Mastin for claiming death miller.

I believe that's all the meta I have on the subject of policy lynches, but if someone wants to go analyze the rest of my games (I have several dozen I believe) then they are welcome to it.

[Kairyuu]

@Fishy:

@Fishy: The problem being that there is no difference between what you say and what I say. By acknowledging that my stance is considered to be pro-town you are also acknowledging that by arguing it I appear pro-town.

Absolutely not. I think that policy lynches are generally considered antitown, and opposing them protown. However, here, it doesn't feel like you are opposing the idea for in-game reasons, but just for the sake of looking protown. Thus I think you are scum trying (and failing) to look protown.

First of all, to oppose it in an attempt to look pro-town would be an in game reason. I fully acknowledge the fact that there is no in game reason for my opposition of the specific proposed policy lynches. I am opposed to policy lynches AS A GENERAL RULE. I don't like them. I've given my reasons why, and I'll not be repeating them. If you consider my arguments wrong, then fine, argue that. Don't tell me that because I have a stance that spans multiple games (I'm pretty sure I pointed out in the endgame of BM's game that I was surprised I hadn't been called out for supporting a policy lynch) that I'm scummy. The info is there. At least read it before you continue to push a null tell.

The Too Townie fallacy covers cases where a person is suspected because their arguments are supposedly contrived with the purpose of appearing pro-town, which is another way of saying that the person in question is acting pro-town so they must be scum.

I don't know if this is true in the common usage, but it's flat out wrong. If someone doesn't drop any scumtells, that makes them more likely protown. But if I know that someone is deliberately going out of their way to avoid dropping scumtells, I think they are probably more likely scum.
I don't think your arguments are contrived to look protown because they look so protown; they look contrived. The TT fallacy is a red herring here.

You really don't seem to be understanding what you're saying. If someone is going out of their way to avoid dropping scumtells, then guess what they're NOT DROPPING. That's right, by avoiding dropping scumtells on purpose, the person in question is NOT DROPPING SCUMTELLS. There is no way, therefore, to tell the difference between someone who is not dropping scumtells by way of being pro-town, or if they are not dropping scumtells by way of deliberately avoiding dropping scumtells.

That said, I'm not overly bothered by your denial of the fallacy. Generally speaking the person committing the fallacy is either doing it deliberately to provoke a lynch (dangerous, and therefore a poor move) or is completely convinced that they are correct (much more likely, and also much more likely to be done by town). I think your situation is the latter.

@wolframnhart: They apparently both claimed miller (google translator is my friend), which makes me lean more towards believing them. Of the two though, tubby's claim is actually more believable methinks, as it wasn't until he claimed it that SSK mentioned his own millerhood, which I could see as an attempt to keep up the parallel.

@Fishy(again): Are you a miller too? All three of the post restricted players being millers would lend credibility to the parallel methinks.

[Kairyuu]

@ace: Oh god. Now that one's fucking annoying. Is it just that you have to post in nonsense or is there some sort of method behind your madness?

FoS: ace

Reason should be blatantly obvious.

No post restriction here.

[Kairyuu]

Anon has found a very nice meta connection. It's stronger than my current vote too, so yeah. . .

unvote
vote: sykedoc

Also, he did not play that way in BM's game, the only other time I played with him.

@sykedoc: If you think I'm playing the same as I did last time then why aren't you voting me? Last time I played with you I was a Godfather.

[Kairyuu]

EBWOP:

unvote
vote: sykedoc

[Kairyuu]

V/LA until Friday due to school stuff.

[Kairyuu]

unvote
vote: DocPotter

Would you like me to repeat the reasons everyone else gave, or is that pretty much understood by now?

[Kairyuu]

@Starbuck: Comparing my voting based on the fact that they were pushing a policy lynch to a policy lynch itself is essentially like saying that using scumtells to determine a vote is policy. I stated that I found policy lynching to be a scumtell, and backed that up in my discussion with LlamaFluff by describing exactly WHY I felt it to be a scumtell.

[Kairyuu]

@all: I'm taking a few days off from pretty much everything due to some personal issues, which may or may not involve travelling without access to internet. If you want me replaced for it then go ahead. Mafia isn't really a top priority for me right now.

[Kairyuu]

My computer is now operational once again. Catching up on backlog of homework first, then mafia.

[Kairyuu]

unvote
vote: sykedoc

Fearmongering. You're essentially pushing the deadline lynch of a claimed cop, when your main defense of yourself is "if you lynch me you'll hit a power role and then you'll be sorry." Tell me then, how does that apply to you, but not to Parama?

@all: parama is either telling the truth, or is Greek Mafia himself, and therefore would know that they won't kill him. Nothing else makes logical sense. I'm inclined to believe him for the moment.

[Kairyuu]

@syke: If you're going to push the idea of a different lynch while not committing to it yourself (note that your vote is still on Parama as of this typing) you are being hypocritical, and cannot legitimately say that you support anything but a Parama lynch.

[Kairyuu]

I just got done with a 25 hour MtG marathon session when I have an important Physics test tomorrow at 9:30am. As such, I have not read anything in like the last 2 days, and I can guarantee I won't be reading until tomorrow. Depending on the time deadline hits I might be able to make a post beforehand, and will strongly endeavor to, but it is not 100% certain.

I know I'm an idiot, but damn was it fun.

[Kairyuu]

@SpyreX: I'm somewhat uncomfortable with the inclusion of sykedoc myself, but after the last time I saw this shot down when it would have decimated the scum I'm willing to take the risk and trust your judgement. I don't see a CSL lynch happening today though honestly, so I'm going to:

unvote
vote: RBT

I believe that's L-2. CSL's head is on the block tomorrow.

[Kairyuu]

@SpyreX: Here's the simple facts. RBT is at L-2. I don't know exactly how many votes CSL has but I doubt it's more than a couple. 3 members of the proposed alliance are currently not voting RBT. I assume that Anon will see the benefit and take the alliance. If he does that, you and he can end the Day for sure. Alternately, MME (who I just noticed hasn't made a single vote all game) could accept the alliance and vote RBT for you or Anon to finish. Whereas, if we were to make a last minute push for CSL we'd be dealing with the same two who haven't been around since the alliance was proposed in addition to several who are dead set on the RBT lynch who AREN'T part of the alliance, and the fact that Llama has expressed his disagreement with CSL being scummy.

Plus we're nearing a deadline that's already been pushed back once. Unless you firmly believe that CSL is a Serial Killer and by killing him we will rid the game of a kill, RBT is a better choice for right now. The case on CSL can be fleshed out tomorrow, and will.

So in essence I'm asking you as a member of your own unbreakable alliance to go with the majority of us and take your secondary lynch, which you already spent several posts pushing, so you obviously support.

Preview edit: Apparently my vote didn't get counted.

unvote
vote: RBT

Also, that's L-1, so you're in hammer position.

[Kairyuu]

@Anon: The argument for the Unbreakable Alliance has been made before. I'll go see if I can find it. Essentially it boils down to the idea that the benefits of each member of the alliance acting as if every member is confirmed town outweigh the risks of the alliance containing scum. Noteworthy is the fact that even if the alliance does contain scum, said scum would be foolish to begin picking off members of their own alliance, as said alliance is protecting them until late game when everyone who is not alliance is dead, at which point they then have to contend with a group of people hand selected for being the most pro-town.

In addition to that, SpyreX is practically confirmed town right now. If he had proposed the alliance as scum in order to fill it with his scumbuddies, he is still the biggest target for the second scumgroup we probably have, as well as potential third party killing roles. If he would die, the alliance would break instantly, and the majority of them would die in quick succession, ruining his setup and killing his chances of winning.

Of course, that doesn't even touch on the benefits of the fact that we're acting like a group of SEVEN MASONS. This means no questions of scumminess, the ability to nearly control the lynch (at the moment we make up more than half of the votes required to lynch, as the game progresses that number will likely increase). Not only that, the fact that we control a large portion of the votes makes it rather difficult to lynch US, so if the scum want us dead, they need to appease us during the Day and hope that they can manage to kill us off fast enough at Night to keep themselves from dying.

@Rifka: Hint. Hint. LlamaFluff IS trying to direct a power role. He's also not wrong in his decision. What I don't like is that immediately after casting suspicion on him for doing it, YOU become a hypocrite and try to direct a vig.

[Kairyuu]

Either way it's scummy.

[Kairyuu]

Syke, he was voting you.

[Kairyuu]

@Ray: Note 1032 and 1035. It was already requested twice before that post. Either it was blatantly ignored, or RBT managed to miss both, and the two unvotes FOR the claim, but not FFFF's vote switch. Note that was ANOTHER OMGUS by RBT.

[Kairyuu]

unvote

Ray, vote. I'm not dragging this shit out.

[Kairyuu]

Vote: RBT

=========[]

[Kairyuu]

Bleh. I can't count.

unvote

One of the pansies that's afraid to hammer should vote. As soon as I see it I will drop the hammer.

[Kairyuu]

Bleh. I can't count.

unvote

One of the pansies that's afraid to hammer should vote. As soon as I see it I will drop the hammer.

why do you insist on being the hammer?

I don't insist. I know that the site meta has everyone being a bunch of pansies who are fine with voting on a wagon unless it's a hammer. If it's the hammer it's suddenly taboo. RBT blatantly refuses to claim. Therefore, death. Since I highly doubt anyone else is willing to do it without badgering endlessly FOR the claim, I will.

[Kairyuu]

@Richard: Fine by me.

vote: RBT

[Kairyuu]

@ani: Get it through your head. RBT is not claiming. Either daykill or hammer NOW. Stop stalling.

[Kairyuu]

@ani: Does your daykill end the Day?

@SpyreX: If it doesn't, we get to do both.

unvote
vote: CSL

[Kairyuu]

ani is pretty much conf-town, and will be a priority target for scum now.

@SpyreX: Might I suggest that ani be added to the Unbreakable Alliance?

[Kairyuu]

Which is why he wouldn't do it again.

[Kairyuu]

Which is why he wouldn't do it again.

w i f o m

CSL: CLAIM NOW

Wrong. It's outguessing the mod. Putting a daykilling SK in the game and giving it multiple shots/day is essentially giving it a win. The correct play would be to kill constantly until you lost the power in that case. Broken in half. ani is town.

[Kairyuu]

Wait, hold on. I thought the kill would still go through, but you'd lose it afterwards if RBT was 'nilla. Is that not true?

[Kairyuu]

4 more votes for CSL. Let's go people.

[Kairyuu]

I think we should have Richard hammer CSL.

Yesh pleashe!

L-3, amirite?

Please explain. Is this role related, or do you just want to hammer.

[Kairyuu]

@SpyreX: I was under the impression we were lynching FFFF. Did something change?

Also, why would Parama be invited into the alliance. From what I can see he's a poor choice.

@all: Given that Parama did not die last Night, it is somewhat more likely that he's scum. His "probably no one is" comment leads me to believe he might have made up the idea of a Greek mafia. Not necessarily valid to pursue right at this moment, but something to consider.

[Kairyuu]

@Parama:

YAY WIFOM
1. Maf may have thought a doc might have been on me
2. Maf may want to keep me alive to see if they can get me lynched

Anyways this is total WIFOM and I won't have any of it.

1. Bullshit. Any doc not on ani would have to be a complete idiot.
2. Slightly more likely, but attempting to lynch a claimed cop is an extremely risky scum move, and therefore unlikely.
3. Calling it WIFOM, besides being wrong, doesn't mean shit.

PFFFFT. DN's claim reeks. Shoot him ani.

[Kairyuu]

vote: FFFF

Obvious reasons.

@ani: I never said to kill Parama. I said to kill DN. Speaking of which, I still think you should, given the American flip and the fact that Parama flipped Greek cop. I don't believe that there's 3 scum factions.

[Kairyuu]

oh I thought you mentioned something about power role. my bad. So what should we do? I say we take care to Spryex. But the DN case still looks open

If I get some agreeals, I would vig DN, and we'd all lynch SpyreX.

Don't be an idiot. SpyreX dies and you follow immediately. There is no possible reason that anyone should support a SpyreX lynch right now.

At this point I'm going to have to agree with MME. ani, do not shoot anyone unless given clear direction. You are a member of the alliance, so at the very least wait until a majority of the members of said alliance point you towards a target.

V/LA for the rest of today and possibly tomorrow

[Kairyuu]

HOORAY! UK'S IN THE GAME! HI UK!

@ani: Hurry up and shoot DN. I believe you have the general support at this point.

[Kairyuu]

@UK: Well that's rather unfortunate for you. You see, MME is part of SpyreX's unbreakable alliance. He isn't going anywhere anytime soon. However, the fact that ani is a dayvig with as many shots as he wants unless he hits a post restriction or a vanilla townie means that he can shoot you with virtually no consequences. You HAVE admitted to being third party, after all.

[Kairyuu]

@RV: I believe the progression is that if MME is lynched then UK wins and leaves, and if he dies some other way UK gets his role.

[Kairyuu]

Hmm. That also works.

Given: MME is unbreakable.
Given: UK is functioning as MME's backup.

Conclusion: UK is unbreakable?

[Kairyuu]

@UK: Why would you replace in if you hate larges?

[Kairyuu]

@UK: The unbreakable alliance is one of SpyreX's ideas that he's at least attempted to use before (in MtG: PU, your subgame at the very least). It essentially functions such that all members of the alliance will consider each other confirmed town, and will, for the most part, work as a team until either a town win, or process of elimination confirms that there is scum among them by means of everyone else being dead.

The alliance currently consists of:

SpyreX
Llamafluff
Kairyuu
MME
sykedoc
ani
Rifka (assuming the petition has been accepted)

with potential additions of Mae, and possibly you as well.

[Kairyuu]

Oh yeah, why is pom getting lynched again?

She isn't. FFFF is. Vote please.

[Kairyuu]

Pom can be shot if we want her dead. FFFF would eat ani's daykill.

[Kairyuu]

Apparently the fact that ani shot DN after I pointed out that several members of the alliance still supported the shot is rubbing SpyreX the wrong way. Unsure of why though.

[Kairyuu]

@SpyreX: I'll do it to play it safe, but I don't believe him. At all.

unvote
vote: FFFF

[Kairyuu]

unvote

[Kairyuu]

vote: FFFF

[Kairyuu]

Lunch? What's that about lunch?

[Kairyuu]

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFffffffffffffffffffffffff.

Dammit. That sucks. I was doing so well too.

Bah.

[Kairyuu]

Congrats town. You deserve the win after how well SpyreX, ani, and assorted others played.

-shakes fist at Zoroaster for killing me-

I also agree with CSL. Mae, SpyreX, and ani are all getting noms.