Open 188 - Tweed Mafia - Over!
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Ello everyone!
I want to be in a game with no RVS. Therefore, I will vote the next person to random vote.Alt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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Not backing down on my promise:vote StrangerCoug.
Well, Zach, I was planning on providing another method of discussion, but I had to leave for dance class soon, and didn't have time to come up with one.Zachrulez wrote: Well if you don't want an RVS, start some discussion.
Vote:Kittymo
Random Questioning Stage: (Please give an actual answer even if part of it is "it's too early to tell)
XScorpion: Who do you expect to be lynched first in this game, and why?
Lowell: Who do you want to be lynched first in this game, and why?
StrangerCoug: Is it scummy to suggest skipping the RVS?
MrSuave: Are you pro-town? (Explain in 100 words or less why.)
Nikanor: Who do you think will survive in this game for a long time, and why?
Locke Lamora: If I were to self-vote right now, what would your reaction be?
yabbaguy: Do you support policy lynches?
Scott Brosius: Why did you decide to join this game in particular?
Zachrulez: What is the scummiest action you can think of off the top of your head, and why?
farside22: How has taking a break from mafia impacted your play as of coming back?
jasonT1981: If I voted you right now with no reasoning, what would you do in response?
Of course, feel free to answer all the questions if you feel called to do so.
I had no school today, so I was waiting around all day for your game to start. Your internet should work better.DTMaster wrote:Note to self: SC and KittyMo respond frighteningly fast to Day 1 prods
Cuz I said not to.jasonT1981 wrote:vote:Zachrulez
why the heck notAlt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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Obviously, no one had random voted, I would have chosen to vote for a different reason.Nikanor wrote:
Except that your reasoning for placing a vote will rely on the RVS's existence.KittyMo wrote: I want to be in a game with no RVS. Therefore, I will vote the next person to random vote.
Vote: KittyMo.
This is also a factor in why I posted that even though I didn't have time to come up with question.farside22 wrote: RVS can also create chat if people look into things, but telling people you do not want RVS I suspect is a way to form a type of chat on your post alone kittymo.
In short kittymo can either be looked at as trying to stir up convo earlier or not offering discussion with that statement. I'm leaning the former based on the last two post.
Darn simul-posting.Alt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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Then the RVS would've gone on while I was gone.Zachrulez wrote:
Perhaps you should have waited till after dance class to post then?KittyMo wrote: Well, Zach, I was planning on providing another method of discussion, but I had to leave for dance class soon, and didn't have time to come up with one.
No? It was just a random question that popped into my head.Zachrulez wrote:
Any particular reason you're interested in specifically what I find scummy?KittyMo wrote:Zachrulez: What is the scummiest action you can think of off the top of your head, and why?Alt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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* Who do you expect to be lynched first in this game, and why?
If I had to guess, it’d probably be me, due to strong reactions to me not wanting to do the RVS.
* Who do you want to be lynched first in this game, and why?
Hmmm. Hard question to answer, since only about half of us are here, but I’d choose Lowell, because I don’t like votes without reasoning on page 1 unless they’re early bandwagoning.
* Is it scummy to suggest skipping the RVS?
No. I don’t really like the RVS; it doesn’t seem all that useful.
* If I were to self-vote right now, what would your reaction be?
Well, there’s a reason that I’m not self-voting right now; I don’t see how it would help the town.
* Are you pro-town? (Explain in 100 words or less why.)
Yes, because DTMaster told me I win with the town.
* Who do you think will survive in this game for a long time, and why?
Hmmm. Based just upon this page, I’d guess Nikanor, just because his post doesn’t strike me as scummy or pro-town.
* Do you support policy lynches?
Sometimes, yes.
* Why did you decide to join this game in particular?
Because DTMaster wanted me to.
* How has taking a break from mafia impacted your play as of coming back?
It’s hard to tell so far, since this is my first game as of being back from a break, but I think it’s given me a new excitement for playing and wanting to try out new stuff.
* If I voted you right now with no reasoning, what would you do in response?
See self-voting question?
I didn’t really think about it that much, honestly. Your name was close to the bottom of the list, so I was running low on ideas. If you would like to answer a different question, go ahead.Zachrulez wrote:
Are you saying that you actually want me to answer that particular question?KittyMo wrote:
No? It was just a random question that popped into my head.Zachrulez wrote: Any particular reason you're interested in specifically what I find scummy?
I can think of a good reason not to.Alt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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I pretty much know what you find scummy, Zach, so if that was the reason I was asking, I would ask someone else that question, like someone very experienced (you know about my irrational fear of them, especially when I play as scum xD), or ask Nikanor, because at least on irc, he always seems to catch me as scum, and I am not entirely sure why. But the main point of the question survey was to ask questions relevant to the game at hand, which is why I didn't ask things like "What's your favorite power role: cop, doctor, or vig?" or random game theory that doesn't apply here.Zachrulez wrote: See, my thought when I see a question like that is that of a scum player who wants to know what NOT TO DO in a mafia game, a scum player who might be paticularly worried about being caught by a specific player. (You'd have to know my history with Kittymo to fully understand what I'm getting at.)
As the game progresses, it becomes less and less acceptable, imo.XScorpion wrote:
Is it ok on page 2 then?Hmmm. Hard question to answer, since only about half of us are here, but I’d choose Lowell, because I don’t like votes without reasoning on page 1 unless they’re early bandwagoning.
Explain por favor? Keep up this intensity throughout what? What do you mean by "this"? Why will "this" be a waste of our time?Lowell wrote:If kitty can keep up this intensity throughout she'll be an asset. If shecan't than this will be a waste of our time.Alt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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[quote="Zachrulez]Still, it seems like a strange question to ask, mainly because answering it tells people exactly what to avoid doing in order to prevent me from finding them scummy.
Do you disagree with that assessment?[/quote]
No, I don't disagree that it could be taken that way. I do disagree that I meant it that way. Is that clear?Alt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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Yeah, I am aware of the fact that I failed. The point was to try a different start to the game that wasn't the RVS. I guess we'll see how much it actually failed later on.yabbaguy wrote: KittyMo: What's the whole point of this method? It's a concept, and it beats RVS, but it's also poorly executed.
You're asking me to figure out what you should do next for you? o.Oyabbaguy wrote: And there's your answer. Question #2: Now what?Alt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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Actually, I was planning to just wing it. (Which I guess is an oxymoron.) It would certainly help if more than 4 people had actually answered the questions.yabbaguy wrote:See, I thought you had a purpose of some convoluted sort. I thought you were operating under the belief that somehow the responses were going to get us somewhere, hence "now what?"
Since I apparently fail so much, what better plan would you like to grace us with?Alt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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...that was my point. I was saying that if he seemed to have such a problem with the way I was doing things, shouldn't he come up with something different to do?StrangerCoug wrote:KittyMo wrote:Since I apparently fail so much, what better plan would you like to grace us with?Unvote: yabbaguy
Vote: KittyMo
If one plan for generating discussion fails, try another yourself. Don't ask people to generate discussion for you.
While trying to stop the RVS from happening isn't as going as well as I'd hoped, I don't honestly think I've completely failed. Yabbaguy, however, seems to think so. The post of mine StrangerCoug just quoted was semi-sarcastic. Apparenty that didn't transfer over the internet well? :/Locke Lamora wrote: Kitty: why do you think you've failed? You obviously don't know how this is going to pan out later on, so this attitude strikes me as a little AtE-ish.
/leaving my houseAlt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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Limited Accessuntil the new battery charger cable for my laptop comes in the mail. :<
Noted - DTMAlt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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MY BATTERY CABLE CAME!!
So now it's ketchup time.
How long does it take to catch up on a 5 page thread? Not much longer than making this post. Where'd ya go, Scott?Scott Brosius's 101 wrote: Sorry, still here will catch up.
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Kay, in response to XScorpion's case on moi:
Didn't start writing the post til he opened the thread. I suppose I could've started writing it earlier, but I don't understand how that makes me scummy to have not done that.XScorpion wrote:KittyMo wrote:I had no school today, so I was waiting around all day for your game to start.
You were waiting around all day...but didn't have enough time? What's up with that?KittyMo wrote:Well, Zach, I was planning on providing another method of discussion, but I had to leave for dance class soon, and didn't have time to come up with one.
If people did continue to RV, I, as I did, would vote the first person to random vote. If no one did RV, I would have chosen to vote for a different reason. Why was this not obvious?XScorpion wrote:
Surely you didn't actually believe that everyone was going to agree and cancel out the RVS?KittyMo wrote:Obviously, IF no one had random voted, I would have chosen to vote for a different reason.
I can see that you find what I did to be stupid and/or anti-town. But do you really think what I did made me more likely to be town? IMO it would be stupid for scum to put themselves in the spotlight at the very beginning of the game. That's exactly what they're trying NOT to do.XScorpion wrote:
The only reason it promoted discussion is because people saw her as suspicious for trying to discourage one of the most common ways to begin discussion.Farside wrote:Quick question for both. How is it what she did, did not promote discussion?
1. Your vote for me had more reason than Lowell's did.XScorpion wrote:
Does this mean my vote for you had reasoning? Also, do you think Lowell's vote is scummier than MrSuave's absence?KittyMo wrote:Hmmm. Hard question to answer, since only about half of us are here, but I’d choose Lowell, because I don’t like votes without reasoning on page 1 unless they’re early bandwagoning.
2. MrSuave wasn't absent as long as many other players were, so I don't get why you're asking me about him specifically. That said, no, I don't think his "absence" was as scummy as Lowell's vote.
That just sounds like you already convinced yourself I was scummy so you decided to find reasons I'm scummy that aren't even scummy. How, in context, do you think what I said would lead to rolefishing, especially since I didn't continue to push talking about power roles?XScorpion wrote:
I am suspicious about someone being the first in the thread to mention power roles, even in this context.KittyMo wrote:...which is why I didn't ask things like "What's your favorite power role: cop, doctor, or vig?"...
I don't, in general, have a problem with doing that. Just the way he asked me to figure out what to do next felt weird to me at the time.XScorpion wrote:
Would you like to explain why you don't want to give any suggestions of what is best for town?KittyMo wrote:You're asking me to figure out what you should do next for you? o.O
Obviously, because not everyone agrees with policy voting, and because anti-town does not equal scumminess. If this were true, bad players would always be scum, and since the Mod does not always make bad players scum, this is a fallacy. It would make the game of Mafia a lot easier for town if pro-town people weren't anti-town, but that's not the case.XScorpion wrote: P.S. Today is the first day I actually read the whole thread. Does anyone want to explain why my insanely anti-town behaviour hasn't warranted a single vote? At most I got a few slaps on the wrists from Yabba and Locke, but really...I mean, if I was anyone else in this game, I would probably be voting myself already out of policy (oh wait, I already did. Lol.) Just pointing out that it seems strange for there to be so much discussion about certain players, yet if I was scum (and wasn't acting like a jackass with my anti-townness) I would breeze through day 1 almost completely unnoticed.
Also, if you're so concerned with scum going under the radar, why did you vote me, the player currently most mentioned, besides, perhaps, MrSuave?
And finally, WHY DIDN'T YOU READ THE ENTIRE THREAD?
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Not really liking this case on me, not liking MrSuave's meta cases on Nikanor, and not liking Scott for the post I mentioned above, though he is getting replaced. Locke needs to lurk less. I'm happy with Jason getting a replacement.
StrangerCoug's not bugging me, so I'm going tounvote. As I continue to catch up, I'll find a place for my vote.
Also, my birthday's tomorrow, so I'm not planning on posting then~
Yay Happy Birthday! Have a cake. But unfortunately this person took it. Sworry. :< - DTM
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What I guessed would happen is that a couple people would still Random Vote, but that it would cause fewer people to random vote.XScorpion wrote: This does not answer my question. Did you actually suspect that the latter case (no one RVs) was likely to happen?
> What kinds of questions did he ask?XScorpion wrote: WIFOM, and I'm really basing this on my last game... a goon disrupted RVS and started a RQ(uestion)S with the purpose of trying to gather information about town for the scum to use. He got lynched day 1 (due to my preemptive hammer vote), so I'm leaning towards the same thing going on here.
> Which of my questions in particular think are information about town for the scum to use? How would they be more helpful to scum than town?
> Do you have any reasons to believe that I play scum the same way the guy you're talking about does?
If you are not concerned about it, why do you think others would be? Do you believe all the scum are people thoroughly mentioned? If so, why would you be trying to tell people something you don't believe? >>XScorpion wrote: I'm not incredibly concerned about scum going under the radar, but I think others should give it some thought. As I said, if I was scum I would have easily made it through day 1 already without anyone seriously questioning me.
How often do town players attack you?XScorpion wrote: I tend to have more success in catching scum when the scum in question is attacking me...maybe this only happens in newbie games, but every scum I've caught so far was caught after he/she attacked me. It seems that general opinion here is that scum aren't going to fall for that this time around.
Huh?XScorpion wrote: I suspect that what I did might have generated more discussion if you hadn't been drawing so much attention already.Alt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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I'm starting to get really confused. You WANT people to attack you for lurking, but your main method of scumhunting is to catch scum making crappy attacks on you?While I didn't expect EVERYONE to come down on me, there is usually at least a few people who put pressure on lurkers...I'm surprised that there is nothing like that going on in this game. I do not believe that all scum are thoroughly mentioned, but I believe it likely that at least one of them is. Obviously I would feel more comfortable if there were no lurkers, but I realize that such a situation is very unlikely on day 1.
My mindset now is that I believe that there are 1-2 scum among active players, and 0-1 scum amongst the lurkers. Today I feel it best for me to focus on active players, then tomorrow I will likely be lurker hunting if necessary. I did not expect everyone to share my mindset, hence my surprise that no one has attacked me yet.
Also, there's 3 scum in this setup. Where's the missing number coming from?
Basically, I want you to explain which of my questions you think someone who is not town would ask. Since you have yet to do that; you've just said that some guy in a game you played with a while back asked scummy questions.I don't believe it is very productive to speculate on what scum might or might not say to get information about town.
You seriously have no reason whatsoever to believe I'm town? That's pretty sad.No, but on the flip-side, I have no reasons to believe that your play is more town than scum.
As town, I've found that most lynches on me have actually been lead by scum...go figure.[/quote]How often do town players attack you?
That's not really what I asked.Alt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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This argument is coming to a standstill because you are so convinced in your tunnel vision that you're not considering the fact that I could be town. You're not allowing anything I say to sink in.
Until you bring up a point that isn't "I think this is scummy because I think it's scummy and you can't change what I think is scummy," I'm not going to respond to your case anymore because it's a waste of the small amount of time we have before reaching the deadline.
I hope that at some point during Day 1 you'll at least look at who my supposed scumbuddies are or do something besides claiming that people who are the most anti-town are scummy, when you've been being anti-town on purpose.
I'ma go iso people and also decide if you're overconfident-tunnelvisioning-hypocritical town that can't even remember how many scum they need to lynch or if you are scum.Alt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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Zach talking about something I said that has absolutely nothing to do with Lowell suggests I'm scum with Lowell?
Um, what?Alt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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Here's the bottom half of my scumlist. (I tried to order it as best I could, but I keep wanting to reorder it...meh):
MrSuave
Zachrulez
StrangerCoug
XScorpion
Lowell
SCUM
I've seen MrSuave as a doctor that refused to claim and got lynched Day 1, so I'm not very confident in my ability to read him. The main thing that bothers me about him is that he's done nothing all game except talk to and about Nikanor. I don't think he's really commented on anything else.Suave - what do you think of people who are not Nikanor? Could you please make a big catch-up post since you've been ignoring most of the thread?
Zachrulez, because I know if he is scum he wants me dead ASAP, and I don't understand his inability to read me well. (Yes, this is pretty much all meta.)
StrangerCoug, just because of gut. I don't really know what it is about him that bugs me, but there's something there.
XScorpion, because he's being a hypocrite:
(And tunneling horribly.)XScorpion wrote: I operate on the assumption that whoever has the most anti-town behaviour is most likely to be scum.
And Lowell - I've been getting bad vibes from him since his first post, and nothing he's said since has eased that.XScorpion wrote: P.S. Today is the first day I actually read the whole thread.Does anyone want to explain why my insanely anti-town behaviour hasn't warranted a single vote?At most I got a few slaps on the wrists from Yabba and Locke, but really...I mean, if I was anyone else in this game, I would probably be voting myself already out of policy (oh wait, I already did. Lol.) Just pointing out that it seems strange for there to be so much discussion about certain players, yet if I was scum (and wasn't acting like a jackass with my anti-townness) I would breeze through day 1 almost completely unnoticed.Vote: Lowell. Why don't you start playing better now? Why do we have to wait for you to do that tomorrow?Alt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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Yup. Cut off the top half of the list since it's so close to deadline. I'm not really interested in giving scum a who-to-NK list.Zachrulez wrote:
So those closer to the bottom are people you are more suspicious of?KittyMo wrote:Here's the bottom half of my scumlist. (I tried to order it as best I could, but I keep wanting to reorder it...meh):
MrSuave
Zachrulez
StrangerCoug
XScorpion
Lowell
SCUM
I don't think it's damning evidence, but I think it increases your likelihood of being scum. Now that I think about it, you probably should be higher on my list. Uggggggh.Zachrulez wrote: How does a potential scum motive for me translate to how scummy you find me? That is just strange.
Also, yes, it has historically been true that you have been a lot better at reading me than I have been at reading you, but like the first statement, I don't understand how this statement makes me scummy.
Sorry, having a crappy day. I would probably be taking a nap right now instead of posting if tomorrow wasn't deadline day.Alt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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Lowell wrote: Any chance we should do some sort of mass copclaim situation? Can we use two cops to our advantage here or what?
Today, I want to hear more from:
* Jazzmyn
* Locke Lamora
* nhammen
And now would be a good time to reread the thread. >> Back at a later date with more content.Alt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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I think nhammen's scum.
Scott Brosius /ins, saying that he wasn't in enough games. 4 days later, when the thread is at 5 pages, he tells us that he's sorry and needs to catch up. How much time/effort does it take to catch up on a 5 page thread? I mean, really? And so then nhammen shows up, with a pretty standard scumlist, without much explanation for it. His posts are pretty bare of content, and he just generally doesn't look like he's scumhunting. My vote needs a place, so I'll go ahead andvote: nhammen
Looking back on Day 1, farside pretty much chainsaw-defended and buddied me all day, while also talking about meta, even though she said herself it's a topic she doesn't like to get on. And I find it really odd how she could be attacking everyone that attacked me for so long, and now she suddenly thinks I'm really scummy.
There's also something off about StrangerCoug. One post that bugs me is this one:
Where he seems to be trying to direct people toward nightkill discussion without adding to the discussion at all.StrangerCoug wrote: Wouldn't it be better to think of the possible motives for yabbaguy's death first?
However, I'm starting to get a more neutral read on him.
MrSuave NEEDS TO POST CONTENT. I swear he's trying to avoid posting anything useful. All I've seen him do is talk about Nikanor, promise to catch up and then not really give any input for a good 14-15 days, claiming the holiday is the reason for this. He also has yet to vote or talk about anyone being scum except Nikanor. I'm not really sure if this is scummy, but it is definitely ridiculous.
Let's see, Lowell. All he's really done is act blatantly scummy and attack Zach. I'd really like to hear his thoughts on the game in general.
That's basically what's down in KittyMo-town. Anyone with other questions should let me know. Anyone I didn't mention I am having issues reading or think they're pro-town.
...oops, forgot to respond to Jazz's case.
I disagree that it was pointless since someone specifically asked me to answer my own questions. I don't see the soft claim you're talking about.Jazzmyn wrote: in 27, she answered her own questions, also quite pointless, but I notice that she managed to slip in an unnecessary soft claim, which is scummy.
At that point I was just sick of everyone "questioning" my "plan." I have a tendency to get overemotional, but I really didn't appreciate at the time him saying the following:Jazz wrote: I didn't like her snipping at yabba for questioning her "plan" and responding to him with snark coupled with what looks like an appeal to emotion.
yabbaguy wrote: See, I thought you had a purpose of some convoluted sort. I thought you were operating under the belief that somehow the responses were going to get us somewhere, hence "now what?"
So, if "nothing" is the answer... well yeah... it kinda failed.
Just based on personal experience, I very, very rarely see scum put themselves in the spotlight early in the game. I remember my first game as scum, and on Day 1 I was absolutely terrified of being attacked early on, and definitely focused more on acting protown than pretending to scumhunt and such things. You can call it WIFOM if you want, but that's my experience.Jazz wrote: In 172, in her response to XS's accusations against her, she utilizes WIFOM "IMO it would be stupid for scum to put themselves in the spotlight at the very beginning of the game. That's exactly what they're trying NOT to do" which is meh.
When I'm preparing a post, I often backspace and edit things so they sound better, which makes other things come out wrong, and causing me to make freudian slips. I do this often; if you're the kind of person that looks at meta, you can see for yourself, or if you'd like me to quote past games I can.Jazz wrote: Also, I see a possible slip when she says, "I can see that you find what I did to be stupid and/or anti-town. But do you really think what I did made me more likely to betown?"(my bolding) For that sentence to make any sense, that should have said scum, not town.
It's just...not really a good use of anyone's time to respond to the same points over and over. The conversation was really becoming a distraction to finding scum IMO. That's why I decided to stop responding.Jazz wrote: Then, she responded further to XS in 183 and 185 but then abruptly refused to do so any further. I'm not a fan of "this discussion is over" type of copouts.
Again, this is more of a meta thing for me. I'm the kind of girl that makes the long, pretty, well-thought out cases as scum because I don't actually have to figure out who the scum are, and the kind of girl that's really wishy-washy and is not among the greatest scumhunters you'll ever meet. Yeah, those are crap cases, but that's really what I was going on at the time.Jazz wrote: In 242, shortly before deadline, she made extremely weak cases on a few players: top scum suspect Lowell because of "bad vibes"; XS for "being a hypocrite" and "tunneling horribly"; SC "just a gut feeling; Zach "because if he's scum he wants her dead asap"; and MrS because of his preoccupation with Nik and because she can’t read him. None of those are legitimate cases
I think that's all. I'm actually not done revising this post to make sure it makes sense, but I'm posting it anyways cuz I have to go to bed right now. ><Alt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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MrSuave wrote:Lowell is at L-?
I'm really not excited by farside's deflection of me noting her sudden change of opinion on me a couple pages back, and her constant bringing up meta over the course of the game even though she supposedly doesn't believe in meta is ridiculous.
Meh. I'm gonna go ahead andunvote; vote: farside22.
And @Jazzmyn: Would you prefer me to not respond at all to posts that I only have a WIFOM defense for, or is it better to provide that WIFOM defense? Because I personally think the latter is more useful than absolutely no response. I realize that WIFOM defense is not the most helpful thing ever.
And I still don't understand why softclaiming the fact that you are of a pro-town alignment is scummy when answering the question "Why are you pro-town?"Alt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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...read the first post please.Lowell wrote:Well she clears me so I'm game. I'll believe it.Alt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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Also, you're completely willing to believe a claimLowell wrote:Well she clears me so I'm game. I'll believe it.just because it clears you?Alt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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:goodposting:XScorpion wrote:I'm definitely not buying this. Why would you scan Lowell instead of your main target yesterday, Mr. Suave?Alt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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XSCORPION, ZACHRULEZLowell wrote:Well she clears me so I'm game. I'll believe it.
YOUR THOUGHTS ON THIS POST PLEASE?Alt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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So what'd you come up with in your thought process...?farside22 wrote:
it's a lot of WIFOM with the tailor. I have to think what are the odds of scum targeting the same person I targeted. There was 2 clear front runners for day 1 lynch. If scum wanted to pick between 2 it's possible the picked the same person I targeted for investigation.Zachrulez wrote:Farsiiiiiiide.
Answer the question please.Zachrulez wrote:So you believe your result Farside?Alt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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Comment now por favor?Zachrulez wrote:
Hold on... more pressing matter first.KittyMo wrote:
XSCORPION, ZACHRULEZLowell wrote:Well she clears me so I'm game. I'll believe it.
YOUR THOUGHTS ON THIS POST PLEASE?Alt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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Generally people claim when someone expresses interest in hammering or someone asks them to claim.farside22 wrote:
I'm at L-1 when should I claim. Afterward? Or should I wait for someone to hammer me first unclaimed?Zachrulez wrote:I also don't like the fact that the claim came unrequested.Alt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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...and that's when you make big glittery text that says "PLEASE ASK FOR A CLAIM BEFORE YOU HAMMER."farside22 wrote:
I thought for a moment that scorpion did hammer before I checked the vote count. I thought for a moment someone hammered without asking for a claim.KittyMo wrote:
Generally people claim when someone expresses interest in hammering or someone asks them to claim.farside22 wrote:
I'm at L-1 when should I claim. Afterward? Or should I wait for someone to hammer me first unclaimed?Zachrulez wrote:I also don't like the fact that the claim came unrequested.
Lowell, where'd you go?Alt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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Dear Lowell,
Stop lurking,
!
Love,
TweedomAlt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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<--- going to sleep
I really think farside's scum.
I really hope so too, because in my many months of forum mafia playing I have never been on a scum-lynching bandwagon.
Let's hope a historic moment occurs soon!
<3 Kitty
P.S. Sorry for all the short+silly postsAlt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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Lowell - Please tell me how this post could come from anyone except scum who has been tailored. I seriously cannot think of any other perspective.Lowell wrote:Well she clears me so I'm game. I'll believe it.Alt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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The tailor, based on my understanding, targets someone at night and that makes their target appear innocent to cop investigation.Alt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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Oh wow, missed the framing part. That's definitely good to know.Zachrulez wrote:
Not quite, the target returns a false result.KittyMo wrote:The tailor, based on my understanding, targets someone at night and that makes their target appear innocent to cop investigation.
Guilty if town, innocent if scum.Alt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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DTMaster, it appears you've forgotten Starbuck replaced in.
Speaking of Starbuck, hello again. What are your thoughts on the game?
Lowell, MrSuave, and nhammen - why didn't you vote Farside yesterday?
That is all.Alt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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Also, DTMaster, I want farside lynch flavor. >_>
HOS Lowellfor now.Alt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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Buddying up is a tactic used by scum on town, typically, nhammen...so I really don't understand what you're getting at here.Buddying Up - Mafia Wiki wrote: Buddying up is a tactic, usually used by members of the Mafia, to try to make yourself look less threatening. Typically the Mafia member will try to be friendly in some way, either outright or, more often, subtly. If the Mafia member is ever lynched at some point, and other players have noticed the buddying, it tends to throw suspicion on the person the Mafia was being friendly towards, thereby causing confusion even after the Mafioso's death.Alt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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If you mean chainsaw defense, then say chainsaw defense. Acknowledging the fact that farside used a tactic on me that makes me more likely to be town and then turning around and saying something else is dumb.nhammen wrote:what about chainsaw defense?Alt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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Discussion is good is why.XScorpion wrote:The real idiocy here is, why is Lowell still alive? Hurry up and lynch please, I wanna go look for the next scum.
Plus, can't you keep your vote on Lowell and still look for the next scum?Alt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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So you think the scum didn't buss farside?Alt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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I thought he meant that he wanted to lynch Lowell in order to be 100% sure Lowell's scum.Nikanor wrote:
a) There's no such thing as 100% sure that someone is scum.XScorp wrote:Technically yes but I want to be 100% sure Lowell is scum first.Alt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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Who do you think is scum?MrSuave wrote:well, aparantly I was prodded. I can tell you now that I'm not scum. Other than the fact that I'm not posting very much, what else is there?Alt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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Actually, MrSuave: Do you even care about finding the scum? Because you've pretty much shown no indication that you do.Alt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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vote MrSuave
Lowell's lynch is just as good if not better, but I mean, just look at what MrSuave posted on Day 2 and Day 3. It's ridiculous. We don't need Lowell at L-1 yet, in my opinion.Alt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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Okay, so we've already established that all MrSuave did day 1 was talk about Nikanor's meta and how Nikanor is scummy and blah blah blah.
End of Day 1:
That's cool and all that you have a life irl, but you don't seem to have had any problems responding to stuff regarding Nikanor.MrSuave wrote: well, let me re-read the thread. I know I havn't really focused on anyone else atm, so I'll try and catch up. it's just a little rough, I'm working a seasonal job, on top of my regular job, so bear with me.
Nice. Where's your PBPA?MrSuave, 2 days later wrote:well... this isn't much of a deadline I'll tell you that
Beginning of Day 2 (Here I will quote every single post he made Day 2.)
This post is okay. It's been a week since he promised to catch up, though.MrSuave wrote: hello again Jazzmyn! welcome to the game! any kind of mass claim is bad IMO. it always makes things more confusing. having 2 cops is good enough. with them scum hunting goes out the window >_>
It's been 5 days since his last post...and 12 since he promised to catch up...and yet other games come before this one. Yes, I see how it is.MrSuave wrote: I see this thread has no mercy for new years and world wide holidays. I see I see. well I'm going to catch up on my games and I'll post when I've done that.
2 days after the last one...2 weeks since he promised to catch up. Talks about wanting to start some excitement, but doesn't provide any information to help the town do so.MrSuave wrote: well, apparently this town needs my input. hm... I don't agree with you that I am scum, but I do agree this game needs some excitment. the whole no lynch at the end of day one was epic phailure, and game us no information. we need to put someone up in a tree to get something hard to pick appart. that's my opinion anyway.
This is the same day as the last one. Yay, finally he made a content post! However, I don't understand why he doesn't just vote XScorpion here. He hasn't voted since...his random vote on Nikanor, actually, which he unvoted like halfway through Day 1. XScorpion responds to this, but MrSuave never finds time to further comment.MrSuave wrote:
uh... I still don't see the point. like... really. if what you say is true, and you are a town, why would you set yourself up to the noose? that just doesn't make any sense to me. FOS on the XbugXScorpion wrote:Nah, but I figure if both Lowell and Farside turn up scum then losing 1 townie (me) won't be an absolute disaster for town. I'm a big fan of martyrdom
3 days later, he decides to grace us with this post. I've lost count how many days it's been since he said he'd freakin catch up. He doesn't even talk about whether Lowell's scummy or not here, just asks for a vote count.MrSuave wrote:"]
Lowell is at L-?
Day 3 post:
Where've you been? 7 days since your last post. Yes, part of that was during night, but he missed the entire farside wagon. Also, what the hell kind of post is this? "Ohhhh so I got prodded for not saying anything? Well, I'm not scum, and so I'm going to announce this to everyone. I'm not even going to talk about finding scum."MrSuave wrote: well, aparantly I was prodded. I can tell you now that I'm not scum. Other than the fact that I'm not posting very much, what else is there?
MrSuave is clearly not looking for scum. I've never played with him before, so I don't really know his meta, but this is just horrid.Alt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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I'd rather lynch Lowell today too probably.Zachrulez wrote:Don't want to lynch MrSuave today.
Maybe tomorrow.
But Suave needs to post content.NOW.Alt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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That's a good point. That'd be one hell of a buss to be keeping up. farside was generally playing pretty oddly, though...hmm. *goes to iso farside*Zachrulez wrote:MrSuave was also one of Farside's major targets, which is another reason to give pause to the idea of lynching him.Alt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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V/LA til lateish Monday
Woo snow camp!Alt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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What do you mean?MrSuave wrote: -Well right now I don't like how Zach is just going along with what you're saying, so probably one of you, or both.
So the newbie setup is too large of a group for you to actually start scumhunting? Why do you even sign up for mini games if you're not going to even flipping play the first half or 2/3 of the game?MrSuave wrote: -Do I care? Yes. Am I good at finding scum is big groups? Not so much. Near the end I'll become more useful. Think of fire emblem, your good end game members suck at the start.
I...don't even know what to say to that. That's really your only comment about my big long analysis post showing how you are a liar and have been not trying at all to find any scum for the entirety of Day 2 and Day 3?MrSuave wrote:(btw I like my personalized analysis thing xD)
When did I become obvtown? Earlier you were soooo pushing Me/Lowell/Farside.XScorpion wrote: a) thinks scum bussed farside for some reason, and that obv. town Kitty and/or Zach are "probably" scum (yeah ok </sarcasm>).
Same question for Zach.
What exactly are you talking about here with a voting triangle? I'm staring at the vote counts, and the only time us 3 have had votes in common would be Zach and I both voting farside on Day 2, and Zach & I being on the Lowell wagon while farside was on your wagon during day 1. Zachrulez has also voted me and farside has voted Zach on Day 1 as well. So basically, huh? And is this "voting triangle" thing Jazz supposedly mentioned really the only reason you think I'm scummy...?MrSuave wrote: At one point she notices Farside, Zach, and Kitty make some kind of voting triangle, and that's why they are more likely than Nik. Zach and Kitty are my top two, I don't have a top.
Guess we'll be seeing him in 5 days...MrSuave wrote: I'll post more thoughts later.Alt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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To be honest, MrSuave, I think Jazzmyn died just because she was so flipping obvtown. I also think that's why yabbaguy died. They were not only both clearly protown, but they both caught onto farside, our confirmed scum.
Also, you seem to be misrepping Jazzmyn's opinions.
Where did you get that Zach was on her scumlist from this? This is the only post she made saying he was scummy whatsoever. Every other post she made was agreeing with him.Jazzmyn wrote: Zachrulez: Nothing in Zach's posts so far has screamed scummy to me, other than a deflection in one of his posts to Lowell, in which he deflected suspicion onto MrS regarding meta.
Also, Jazz *really* thought Lowell was scum, so if you're basing so much on what Jazz said, why are you ignoring this?
I think you need to stop taking pieces of what Jazzmyn said and not looking at the entire picture, and then using that as your reasoning.
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Zachrulez wrote: MrSuave was also one of Farside's major targets, which is another reason to give pause to the idea of lynching him.
...no, not really.MrSuave wrote: You say something, and he pretty much says "yeah"
I seriously don't understand why you sign up for 12 player games with the hope that you'll end up scum, and then ignore the game until it gets to smaller than the start of a newbie setup if you happen to end up as town.MrSuave wrote: well, I think I'd be better scum, but when I'm stuck as town, yes I appear useless at the start. but I am forming opinions. D-1 is just the luck of the draw, D-2 I wasn't there for pretty much, but I would have said something if I was. why do I sign up? well how will I ever play scum if I don't join games right? xD
So you're telling me that a catch up post 25 days after it's said to come "soon" is not a lie? Why the hell did it take you 25 days to catch up?MrSuave wrote: well I disagree with the lier part, but I agree with the not being here. what else was there to say?
Can't you tell that I am really, really annoyed at you for your lack of actual posting and then when you do show up, making attacks on people that make no sense? Don't you see a problem with the fact that you haven't voted since your random vote? Do you honestly think I have any reason to expect that you'd come back to make a responding post within a reasonable amount of time?MrSuave wrote: and way to throw a low blow at the end. why did you even bother? to make me look bad? tsk tsk tskAlt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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DTMaster - prod Starbuck please
And if that doesn't work...
Nikanor - prod DTMaster with your fistsAlt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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Um, no, dude. I'm just trying to get MrSuave to talk for the most part. I still want to lynch you, but I don't think hammering you right now would be very helpful because Starbuck needs to catch up, and we still have plenty of time for discussion. I don't believe that I would be "escaping responsibility for your lynch" considering I've been pushing your lynch as much as pretty much everyone on your wagon.Lowell wrote:KittyMo wrote:vote MrSuave
Lowell's lynch is just as good if not better, but I mean, just look at what MrSuave posted on Day 2 and Day 3. It's ridiculous. We don't need Lowell at L-1 yet, in my opinion.unvote, vote kitty. This has struck me the most since the new day opening. Kitty thinks I'm a good lynch, but wants to play it slow and vote someone else. She's setting up a lynch of me, but doesn't want to be the one responsible. If I die and flip town, she'll then be able to pursue scopion or nik, or one of the others more swayed by farside's dying words.
That she's basically attacking a strawman while keeping the option of my lynch open (possibly as the hammer) makes me think she's trying to massage her image.
I also find it interesting that you seem to be randomly pushing OMGUS votes and hoping one of them gets a wagon behind it.
What do you mean by "massaging my image"? What part of my attacks on MrSuave are strawmanning? Why did you change your votes from Zachrulez (who you seemed pretty d*mn sure was scum) and XScorpion?Alt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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No, they don't.Zachrulez wrote: Even more bizarre is that his points make sense.Alt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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All right. In the future I'll make sure to remember that cutting off discussion and pushing the same lynch everyone else is is a towntell.Zachrulez wrote: Yeah they do.
If you bring up your iso, you've pretty much been all about MrSuave after you paid lip service to a Lowell lynch that has had a lot more interest.
Also, looking back about 10 pages, I was the first one to suggest to MrSuave that he talk about people other than Nikanor. This is not something I invented starting today. I just noticed that he hadn't caught up after 20+ days of saying he would to me.
I think you give yourself too much credit. Getting you lynched is something scum could easily get away with without losing any "cred" because pretty much everyone still alive thinks you should be lynched. I don't really see how staying off the wagon gives me more "credit."Lowell wrote: @kitty- when I consider the scummiest actions the bandwagon on me after farside's death, then unfortunately OMGUS is what I'm left with.
The more I look at it, the less scorpion or zach really make sense as scum. Clearly farside was trying to set this up after her death, and I doubt the scum would so eagerly jump on this wagon. They'd lose whatever cred they had the following day.
And look at farside's interaction with ME and tell me she was not doing the exact thing you're accusing me of doing to you.Alt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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Towntell as in something that pro-town people should do and do do. That came out a bit weird.KittyMo wrote:discussion and pushing the same lynch everyone else is is a towntell.Alt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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I was being sarcastic.Zachrulez wrote:
Which is why you paid lip service to Lowell being the best lynch while voting for Suave?KittyMo wrote:
All right. In the future I'll make sure to remember that cutting off discussion and pushing the same lynch everyone else is is a towntell.Zachrulez wrote: Yeah they do.
If you bring up your iso, you've pretty much been all about MrSuave after you paid lip service to a Lowell lynch that has had a lot more interest.
That doesn't really make sense.Alt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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Well, technically MrSuave started calling me scummy before Lowell did...Nikanor wrote: MrSuave, 'throwing your vote around' helps the town get a read on you. I don't know why you'd hesitate to vote someone you think is scum if you were town. I think the real reason for why you're not voting Kitty is because you don't want to seem like you're hopping on the wagon that Lowell just started, which you're doing anyway by saying she's scummy, by the way. Just because you're not voting her doesn't mean you're not jumping on the bandwagon.Alt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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Hi Starbuck.
There was a segment during Day 2 where I was a bit lurky, but for the rest of the game I think I have an above average posting amount...
Early bandwagonning usually provides information. Voting because someone else's avatar reminds you of blueberry pie is not quite as helpful.Starbuck wrote: Most votes on Page 1 aren't for a reason. So why do you support early bandwagoning (which a good chunk of people find to be scummy) over people random voting?
I don't like it all that much just because it seems overdone and not very helpful. Actually, the last game I played with Locke Lamora started with questions, and I think that generally made the game more scumhunting-based toward the beginning of the game rather than joking around. If I recall correctly, your scumbuddy bussed you hard day 1. I replaced in later. The town won in a 9 player game with only 1 power role (a tracker) and 1 mislynch.Starbuck wrote: I don't think you've even stated why you don't like the Random Voting Stage.
I think it generally sets up Day 1 for having a lot of kidding around and wasting time. There's a reason that scum have a really low chance of being lynched Day 1, and I think it has something to do with the fact that for the first half or 2/3 of day 1 in many games people are like "lalala let's talk about random crap" and then when the deadline starts getting close people are basically lynching randomly because there's so little actual information available.Starbuck wrote: Now you've stated why you don't like RVS, so why isn't it useful?
I'm an emotional person, okay? I think I've been accused of appealing to emotion 10+ times in this game, and I guess it's just because I'm naturally a whiny person. It has little to do with my alignment.Starbuck wrote: QFT
I'm also not a fan of Kitty's AtE in that quote.
...huh?Starbuck wrote: You've been on this site long enough to know that almost 98% of games start with some kind of RVS. So your theorizing about "if no one did RV" doesn't fly with me at all.
You are trying to give yourself an out where there isn't one.
I disagree that it was a distraction. XScorpion kept repeating the fact that the questions I was asking were scummy questions without saying which ones and what about them in particular was scummy.Starbuck wrote: Why are you trying to lead into a discussion that will be a complete distraction from the game?
How does what I said there have anything to do with "jumping all over him" whatsoever?Starbuck wrote: So why are you jumping all over X for his vote on you, rather than anyone else for their votes on you?Alt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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Basically, here's the boat I'm in - Lowell seems pretty scummy, but I have this sinking feeling I'm missing something here, about who the scum is. I am starting to doubt whether I really believe a wagon pushed this hard could have a scum flip. That is main thing making me uncomfortable here.Zachrulez wrote: What was Kitty saying that I was agreeing with?
Regardless of any of the things we may agree on, her vote on you seems distracting. She's pursuing your lynch while seeming to be of the opinion that Lowell is the better lynch. Does nothing about that look just a bit off to you?
I don't think it's reasonable to say that I'm being "distracting" by getting a player that has posted next to no content to read up and give their thoughts on the game. I also don't think it's reasonable to call that a scummy action. I don't think anything about my behavior or anything I said shows that I was looking to get MrSuave lynched. Absolutely not - my purpose was to call him out for a ridiculous lack of content thus far. I don't understand what about that is "distracting." What meaningful discussion that was taking place today was I distracting from?
I've made some mistakes this game, but getting MrSuave to post content is not one of them. Actually, my vote has pretty much served its purpose.Unvotepending reread. Please keep up the activity, though, Suave. [/b]Alt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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There's this thing called a pressure vote. I take it you think it's not a good reason for voting for someone?Nikanor wrote:
Except that you voted for him to be lynched. That's what a vote is - a vote to have that person killed.KittyMo wrote:I don't think anything about my behavior or anything I said shows that I was looking to get MrSuave lynched.Alt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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I think I was overreacted just a bit isoing him. My main purpose was to put pressure on him to say something.Nikanor wrote: That's the entire post where you vote MrSuave. I don't see anything there indicating anything other than that you were 'looking to get MrSuave lynched.'Alt of Ariel | MafiaScum wiki volunteer contributor & sysop | Identity (Mish Mash) is back | Speakeasy Secret Santa
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