Open 188 - Tweed Mafia - Over!

[Nikanor]

I want to be in a game with no RVS. Therefore, I will vote the next person to random vote.

Except that your reasoning for placing a vote will rely on the RVS's existence.

Vote: KittyMo.

[Nikanor]

Quick question for both. How is it what she did, did not promote discussion?

I don't care if something promotes discussion. If a guy is obvscum, his scumminess is going to provoke discussion. How is the fact that it promotes discussion supposed to provide reason for me not to vote her?

A)Nikanor: Who do you think will survive in this game for a long time, and why?
B) MrSuave: Are you pro-town? (Explain in 100 words or less why.)

A) Probably Locke, yabba, Scott and Kitty, just because they're not bad enough to get lynched, but not good enough to be nk'd.
B) No.

[Nikanor]

Nikanor (0) - Lowell, MrSuave

Yay I has zero votes.

Noob mod is noob - DTM

[Nikanor]

You don't have to include people not being voted in vote counts DTM. It's not like we're going to be forgetting about anyone here....

Tee hee. Are you sure about that? - DTM

[Nikanor]

I was told to post more by DTM, so here I am....

Who wants a backrub?

[Nikanor]

A tad opportunistic, aren't we?

More like 'totally opportunistic.' Zach voted KittyMo right before me, remember?
It's the RVS, dude, and bandwagons are awesome.

How is kittymo obvious scum? Reading your reasoning for voting kittymo can you explain a bit better what it was that is scummy?

Err, that was a hypothetical situation in which I'd vote for someone even if they were generating discussion.

See, my thought when I see a question like that is that of a scum player who wants to know what NOT TO DO in a mafia game, a scum player who might be paticularly worried about being caught by a specific player. (You'd have to know my history with Kittymo to fully understand what I'm getting at.)

I agree with this.

[Nikanor]

Since I apparently fail so much, what better plan would you like to grace us with?

Oh snap! No you di'int!

[Nikanor]

Lol wut? How am I ignoring you? I have written down in my notes here all nice and neatly that you are scummy for being quick to buddy me by taking my offered backrub. I just didn't say it because it could just as easily be a nulltell with you.

[Nikanor]

MrSuave, I'm starting to think you're scummy simply because of your overconfidence in the early game. Believe it or not, overconfidence is a scumtell. It's how I always catch KittyMo as scum, hehe.
Anyway,

Unvote. Vote: MrSuave.

You obviously seem to want my vote anyway.

[Nikanor]

Having an abnormal amount of confidence is a scumtell, farside.

[Nikanor]

@everyone: What is the best way to get out of RVS?

Do something stupid.

[Nikanor]

well as you can see, right now I'm assuming he is scum. that is the logical conclusion. if A is not true, then B is the answer unless proven otherwise.

So basically, guilty until proven innocent. They have a name for that, you know. It's called Texas Sharpshooting, and it's scummy.

I'm sorry, but that is a case by case scumtell. just because that's how you catch KittyMo doesn't mean that that is a scumtell for me.

Trust me, it's not case by case. It applies to everyone. Here's the reasoning, if you're interested:
Player A is town in Game A. He flails around a lot, not sure where to look for scum. This is because he is part of an uninformed majority, and he does not know the alignments of the other players.
Player A is scum in Game B. He is decisive and easily calls people scum. This is because he is part of an informed minority, and he does know the alignments of the other players, and can call someone town or scum without the uncertainty of being incorrect. This is where the confidence comes from.
I've applied this scumtell to other people, and I always get positive results. It's one of my more trusted (albeit less trusted by the rest of the players in games in which I happen to use this tell) tells.
However, it should be noted that this is a meta-based tell and requires Player A to have a general lack of confidence in a usual game.

but right now, I have my facts, and unless you give me a reason to believe otherwise, you are scum because the data says you are scum. period.

Yeah, your facts are wrong. Just because I tunneled you twice as town doesn't mean I'm going to do it every time.
Game A, where you were scum, my tunneling was justified (you turned out to be scum).
Game B, where you were town, I lynched you in lylo, but I'd hardly call that tunneling. Hell, I mentioned you in three out of my forty-two posts on day one in that game. I would hardly call that tunneling.
Game C, you were town, I was scum. I was only being nice to you because I wanted to keep the StrangerCoug-MrSuave cross-hate alive, otherwise I would have lynched you on day three. Don't try to paint this as the same sort of situation on page four.

[Nikanor]

I'm sorry, but that is a case by case scumtell.

Apologizing for no reason is scummy.

[Nikanor]

the second game, you still assumed I was scum, EVEN THOUGH I had claimed, and was even planning to try and save you because you were BP, and you almost screwed that up too. and as I stated, those were just examples on the site. I could give examples from brawl matches, monopoly, risk, pretty much any game we've played together you ALWAYS try to screw me over.

A) Your claim was scummy (you claimed miller with overpowered abilities who couldn't decide if he could use one or two actions per night).
B) There is no B).
In Risk, Monopoly, etc., screwing you over usually helps my win condition. Tunneling on you each and every time in mafia, however, does not help my win condition.
In rl mafia, the only time I actually lynched you was when you were scum. I'll admit that we only played three or four games together because the rest of the group failed at modding *shakes a fist at DTM*, but my point still stands.

and that "I'm sorry" was not a serious apology, it was sarcastic. >_>

I don't care what you say after the fact, you were appeasing the town, and that is scummy.

[Nikanor]

I cleared that ability thing up as well as I could. it was hard to tell with the bad descriptions of my skills.

Yes, but do you see what I mean when I say it was scummy?

a good example of when you don't care if you win or not, is in 2v2 brawl (we have FF off) and you don't care if you hit me. in fact, sometimes you TRY to hit me. how does that help your win condition?

Only when we're pretty much guaranteed a victory anyway.
Anyway, to steer this discussion back on-topic, the whole point of this argument was that you say I try to get you killed in every game where I'm town, while I deny that by saying you deserved to be lynched in those games. I'm refuting your point by providing evidence for why you did indeed deserve to be lynched there.
To provide more support for my argument with Game B where we were both town, I all but ignored you on day one, with only one question and one accusation (of Suave being chainsaw defended by another player, no more) shot your way. You're now accusing me of ignoring you on day one, three pages into the game, and claiming it doesn't fit my town meta. That does not fit the facts at all, and is quite frankly pretty scummy.

and how was I trying to appease the town? I thought it was pretty obv sarcasm.

It wasn't obvious. And saying it was sarcasm doesn't let you off the hook, either, to be clear.

[Nikanor]

Nik: do you have any examples of MrSuave being overconfident as scum?

The only game I've played with him in which he flipped scum is his first game; everyone played the newbcard on him from the beginning and he coasted through the entire game without doing anything.

and also, say what you want, that "I'm sorry was very obvious." I know you have enough common sense to know when someone is sarcastic, especially since you yourself use sarcasm

When I use sarcasm, I at least have the common sense to put an emote at the beginning/end to let others know I'm being sarcastic.

Also, I appreciate that you have nothing to say about my meta now that I've proved you wrong, scum.

[Nikanor]

game B, you were just as scummy as I was, and in lylo, when I was obv not one of the last scum, you STILL vote me, and screw us over. *shakes head* >=(

I wouldn't say you were obvtown, or even slightly town. But that's neither here nor there. The point I'm trying to prove with this is that you're trying to make it out to seem like I tunnel on you day one straight off the bat in every game where I'm town, when in fact that is not the case at all. Do you still want to press the case that I tunnel on you every time, even with the evidence I've brought to the table?

[Nikanor]

Just to clarify mrsauve points out that as town nik goes after him even when the reasoning isn't sound.

Read this game and tell me that I'm acting in that game how MrSuave is trying to make me out to act. It is debatable whether I actually tunnel on him later on in the game, but I hardly mention him in the early stages of that game. He is trying to make it look as if I go straight for him and don't look back as town, which simply is not true.

[Nikanor]

So the meta he is talking about has not truth to it? Is somewhat true or what?

*facepalm* That's what I've been saying this whole bloody time! Have you not been reading a single one of my posts?

Game A, MrSuave is scum, I'm town.
Game B, MrSuave is town, I'm town.
Game C, MrSuave is town, I'm scum.

[Nikanor]

well, I don't want to get 2 days in and be like, "OH CRAP NIK IS SCUM!" I want to get this cleared up asap. hence, guilty untill prooven innocent. you will always be scum to me untill I cannot read you. but so far, my recent game wth you where I read you like a book, I'm going to go with the fact I can read you.

This makes no sense. If you always see me as scum, as you say in your fourth sentence, that means you cannot read me. Yet you think you can read me now. Use a defense that actually makes sense or be lynched.

Interesting that you characterized my response that way. My point was directed more toward Lowell's selective method of attack, where he is interested in a bandwagon on me due to meta arguments, but apparently shows no interest in other players at all for doing the same thing. What exactly is wrong about that?

This is what I saw. I don't see where yabba finds deflection.

@farside: You admit that Suave's meta 'evidence' is not valid. Why does your vote linger?

@Mod: Why are there fourteen votes in the poll? I'm scared.

[Nikanor]

You are not scare of a vote on you are you? Does it concern you in some way or reason at this point?

No, but not putting your vote where your mouth is is a scumtell.

-Nik: this is really it.

Curious that you've shown no interest in suave in that case...

I still only see Zach pointing out double standards. *Shrugs*

[Nikanor]

That's not the issue here. The issue is that YOU'VE BEEN LEAVING OUT EVIDENCE WHILE BUILDING A META ARGUMENT. Furthermore, when confronted with the contradicting evidence, you have dodged addressing it.

I'm going to ask you nice and slowly now so that you can't possibly dodge the question again:

Do
You
Consider
The
Pokemon
Madness
Mafia
Game
To
Exhibit
Signs
Of
Tunneling
On
You
By
Me
On
Day
One
Four
Pages
Into
The
Game?

If
Not,
Why
Did
You
Ignore
This
Evidence
While
Building
A
Meta
Attack?

[Nikanor]

The wonder of having friends playing in the same game as you: You know when they're online.
*Looks at MrSuave on MSN.*

[Nikanor]

Vote: MrSuave.

MrSuave, please answer my question.

@Nikanor et al: Do you think Suave is scummy for trying to start this meta attack? Despite thinking the argument was poor to begin with, I personally am uncertain on the whole issue of scumminess. However, I don't really feel this was terribly scum opportunism at work at the moment... but I may be wrong here, so I want to see where you all stand.

Starting a meta attack itself is not scummy. MrSuave is scummy for pushing a meta case that is inaccurate. He even decides to not answer the question I've asked him multiple times. He refuses to acknowledge the fact that his evidence is faulty, and that is scummy because it says to me that MrSuave is happy pushing a lynch based on inaccurate information.

[Nikanor]

This question.

[Nikanor]

Sorry Zach, when you said you were 'waiting for a response from Nikanor,' I thought you were referring to yabba's question. I missed your inquiry entirely.

1) So when you say he's overconfident, you mean that he's too confident in his vote on you?

2) I don't know if this question was ever answered, but is this kind of play common to town Suave? (The aforementioned overconfidence)

3) The general idea I'm getting from the back and forth the two of you have is that he's claiming as a qualification to you being town that you must tunnel him, and you have provided evidence to the contrary, (That I haven't actually looked at yet.) that has gone ignored by Suave. Is that an accurate assessment?

1) Yes, as well as his accusations against me. It seems to much like, 'I know exactly who is scum in this game, so I have no problems calling other people scum for completely arbitrary reasons!'

2) From what I've seen, no.

3) Yes, that is correct.

@nhammen: Why do you think XScorpion is scummy? Why do you think MrSuave is scummy? Why do you list XScorp above MrSuave in your 'scummy' list, but only say that you're willing to move to MrSuave at deadline?

[Nikanor]

Zach, what do you think of XScorp?

[Nikanor]

I see, THAT question. well in the pokemon game, you did not tunnle on me. BUT, you did group me in with a player to be lynched >_>. and your attitude towards me was very hostile IMO. and then at the end you randomly voted me, screwing us over entierly. so, you may not have been tunnling, but you weren't that friendly either >_>

Now for the next question: do you think your case (and vote) is justified, then?

[Nikanor]

I haven't really seen anything else from him that really stands out to me one way or another.

So neutral, then.

@nhammen: So now that I know why you think XScorp is scummy, what do you think of MrSuave?

[Nikanor]

Tomorrow, whenever DTM gets home from dinner.

[Nikanor]

I'm going to wait to see what MrSuave has to say before I lay a vote down, but this:

You gave yourself away by calling for my lynch yesterday while maintaining support of the suave wagon. If you were really a townie trying to lynch the person you found most suspicious, you would have been actively trying to push my bandwagon rather than simply waiting for it to be the largest viable one.

Makes a Lowell+Suave team look pretty delectable.

Also, Zach is right about the cop claims, obviously. This discussion should stop now, as it only gives opportunity for the cops to slip up.

[Nikanor]

Anything useful you have to say, MrSuave? Maybe a vote to put down?

[Nikanor]

Off to re-read now and will post post my thoughts, reads, etc. before long. Best estimate: probably late tonight. Possibly even sooner.

Liar.

[Nikanor]

Internet is dead, posting from cafe. Internet guy arrives on Monday, so you'll be seeing the postings at that time.

[Nikanor]

The internet guy couldn't fix anything yesterday, so I have to wait until Wednesday for the guy who actually knows how to do his job. >_>
Sorry about this, folks.

[Nikanor]

Zach was absolutely right not to answer that question whether he's town or scum, because it only helps scum. So, why was farside so eager to get an answer to the question in the face of a reasonable objection to it? And so eager to vote for Zach when he wouldn't answer it?

I looked and looked and looked and could not find where farside pushed or voted Zach for not answering KittyMo's question. Could you quote/postlink please?

So, she claims that meta is useless and then relies upon nothing but meta to vote both Nikanor and MrS. This is scummy.

I agree with this.

Then after SC telegraphs in his post 150 that he is going to vote for MrS, farside immediately votes for MrS. Classic scum move - see where someone's vote is likely to go and then go there yourself first so that you're on the wagon earlier and not in a position of having to hammer later on.

This, too.

2) in the post-game, in which farside also participated, the scum mentioned how helpful to them the hypoclaiming had been, which should have been a sufficient basis for farside to renounce it in the strongest of terms in THIS game as soon as the suggestion was made, rather than supporting it and claiming that it helps protect cops, etc.

This in itself is enough to convince me that farside is scum.

Nikanor was definitely out of line for calling me a "liar" as he did, and it is suspicious to me that he hasn't said a word about those who are actually lurking, and instead choosing to call me a "liar" solely on the basis of being unable to meet my best estimate of when I would be able to post.

Sorry? I thought the emote would be enough to tip you off, but I guess I have to say it outright: I wasn't serious about that. If I recall correctly the last game we were in together had you limited to posting from work, so I won't call you out on missing self-imposed deadlines.

Jazzmyn, how do you get 'Overall neutral, leaning town,' out of a post of completely negative points?
At this point I also notice that Jazzmyn only points out scummy posts made by players, and says nothing about town-like posts made by players; this is a minor scumtell, probably worth only about 3 points on a 100-point scumtell scale, but a scumtell nonetheless.

First I never said I was for the idea. I saw the pro's and con's but never said lets do it.

Lack of objection is as good as assertion. Not mentioning your position on something is called 'fencesitting,' and it's scummy.

In 349, Suave dodges the cattle prod. Two days later, MrSuave posts again, but his post says absolutely nothing about anything.

I will get to the complete 305 post when I'm feeling better I have been sick today.

i.e. I'm answering the easy question and stalling for the rest.

I'm a lazy townie look it up in any game.

Softclaim is scummyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy.

Also, I see a possible slip when she says, "I can see that you find what I did to be stupid and/or anti-town. But do you really think what I did made me more likely to be

town

?" (my bolding) For that sentence to make any sense, that should have said scum, not town.

When I'm preparing a post, I often backspace and edit things so they sound better, which makes other things come out wrong, and causing me to make freudian slips. I do this often; if you're the kind of person that looks at meta, you can see for yourself, or if you'd like me to quote past games I can.

So you're saying it was a freudian slip?

Again, this is more of a meta thing for me. I'm the kind of girl that makes the long, pretty, well-thought out cases as scum because I don't actually have to figure out who the scum are

I can attest to this.

XScorp: Your self-defeatist play didn't exactly work out for you in Newbie 853. Why are you doing it again? What do you think of the difference in reactions between these games? Why do you think the reactions are different?

Ugh, scorpion is scummy as hell. "Lynch X, then Y, then me" is not "townie matrydom." It's just regular dumb.

Stupidity is not a scumtell. Trying to make stupidity into a scumtell is scummy.

I'm having a lot of trouble getting into this game with all the meta talk. Plus the fact no one is really talking about much of anything else makes things more difficult. Some games are just like that.

Excuses for why farside isn't interested in the thread:

She's scum and doesn't need to scumhunt

She doesn't like meta talk.
Seriously, if you're going to lie, at least make up a believable excuse.

MrSuave needs to post more. nhammen needs to post more. Locke needs to post more. Lowell needs to post more. KittyMo needs to post a bit more; the big post was good, but your posting needs to be more frequent.

Vote: farside22.

I still think that MrSuave is scum, and that his lurking is designed to avoid suspicion, but I figure I need to stop tunnelling on MrSuave to allow people to get a read on me. Of course, if a bandwagon forms on MrSuave, I'd be happy to jump on it, but for now I'll stick with farside.

[Nikanor]

I think that's the longest post I've ever written. Sorry.

[Nikanor]

Such things that can melt one's eyes.

Yeah, I've seen some of those. The posts like mine, the ones filled mostly with quotes and one-liners, aren't bad. The posts to fear are the ones that have paragraph after paragraph of text. Those are the things of which replacements are made. It's horrifying.

[Nikanor]

If you would like me to get my husband on skype to explain in great details my puking I would be happy to get the WIFOM off the table now and not argue about something so pointless

Do itttttttt.

Explaining my positioning and helping people get a read on me is scummy? Since when?

Lawl.
For the sake of completeness, I said nothing about your positioning, etc. I don't care about that. The quote you have there has me calling you scummy for you calling yourself a townie. I don't see how you could get any other sort of conclusion from that, unless by some miracle you don't know what a softclaim is.

Nice try I just had a long post outlining all players and my thoughts on why they are scum and what I found.

Yeah, it was in the same post as your excuse. Which makes me wonder why you're making excuses for no reason.

What did you do the last 2 days?

Well, if you must know....
On Monday I woke up at about twelve or one in the afternoon, iirc. I had stayed up until five in the morning the previous night playing Borderlands with a friend, so I needed to sleep in. Anyway, after I woke up, I ate a bowl of Brown Sugar Mini Wheats before jumping in the shower. After my shower, I made sure to apply medicated lotion to my legs, which have been badly afflicted with eczema as of late, probably due to the cold weather. After that was done, I took the bus down to West Edmonton Mall to meet up with DTMaster and a couple other friends for dinner and bowling. We met up at The Bay (except for DTM, who met us at the restaurant), then headed over to the Boston Pizza in the mall. There were four of us there, so we got a plate of yam fries for an appetizer and two medium pizzas. I appointed DTM to make the decision on what to get, but he waffled around for a bit, so I revoked his privileges. We ended up ordering one Spicy Perogy pizza and one pizza with half BBQ chicken, half Bacon Double Cheeseburger. DTM and I ended up eating the most. One of us had eight slices, one of us ate seven slices, but we never figured out who ate more. The girl sitting beside me ate three slices, and my friend sitting across from me was feeling ill and not hungry, so he ate zero slices. At this point, I realise I should start a new paragraph, but I won't, if only to make this a more monotonous read. After dinner, we went to Ed's rec room (formerly Red's rec room) to go bowling. However, as is always the case when I try to bowl there, we couldn't get in thanks to a league they were hosting. So we just ended up shooting some pool instead. The girl and I were on a team against DTM and the other guy (no, not Korts). DTM and the girl had never played before, while the other guy and I were fairly experienced, so it was kind of even. I sucked, as usual, and sunk only two or three balls the entire time. My teammate killed us all with her talent, and although we lost the first game due to her sinking the eight ball, she carried our team to victory in the second match. After the two games of pool, we went to catch our respective buses home. I took the same bus as DTM and the guy, but they fell asleep for most of the trip. After the bus ride, I went home and played some video games before going to sleep.
On Tuesday, I woke up at roughly nine in the morning, ready for my first day of school. It was rather uneventful, as I only had three hours of class, but after class I went to see a movie with the same girl I mentioned earlier (Sorry for lying to you DTM, please don't modkill me!) After the movie, I went home and played Super Mario Bros. for the Wii with my family. I pissed everyone off, being the only one experienced with platformers, and being the only one jumping on everyone else's heads. I ate some Rice Crispie squares baked by my sister, and they were delicious. Then I went to sleep.

tl;dr: Sarcastic remark.

[Nikanor]

My hubby is home and I'm not. If you want to talk on skype it's FHCHome

Done. He told me he had looked through your pms and told me you were scum in this game. Like, seriously.

My comment you quoted was in answer to a comment Jazz made to me about my lack of reading links.

Yes, and you softclaimed in your response.

I'm a lazy

LOOK HERE --->

*

townie

*

<--- LOOK HERE

look it up in any game.

Right there. Do you see it now? I know it can be hard for you to notice a softclaim, seeing as how you're a new player and all, but please try your best.

[Nikanor]

Blahhh.
MrSuave, where art thouuuuuuuuu?
DTMaster, prods pleaaseeeeeeeeeeeee?

[Nikanor]

Yes, and another nolynch will (probably) force us to nolynch again sometime down the road.
Only eleven days until deadline, if anyone was wondering.

[Nikanor]

(on the "don't give the scum too much information on townie reads" theory, and also because I find that keeping some things to myself initially can be helpful in my analysis of players, especially if scum are attacking someone who I have a town read on, which is a better time to pull those things out of my notes).

Then why bother saying you're leaning town on him? Isn't that kind of counter-productive?

@Nik: Why did you point out farside's soft claim and not KittyMo's?

I don't consider claiming town like KittyMo did to be softclaiming.
Also,

And I still don't understand why softclaiming the fact that you are of a pro-town alignment is scummy when answering the question "Why are you pro-town?"

Speaking of softclaiming, I find it hilarious that farside practically claimed townie in her softclaim, yet still tries to claim cop. Lynch please.

Jazzmyn, you also mentioned earlier that I didn't move to Lowell to stop a nolynch, yet didn't say anything about whether I thought Lowell was town. Well, I do not think that Lowell is overly town, but I am absolutely dumbfounded as to why Lowell was wagoned on day one, so I can't conclusively say that he's scum either, since stupid wagons always seem to crop up where there is scum involved. Maybe I'm speaking from a biased point of view, knowing that Lowell is an easy lynch when he's town, but I don't see why Lowell should have been lynched over MrSuave on day one. Perhaps someone could explain it to me so that I can finally understand why people such as Zach and SC are voting for Lowell at every opportunity.

[Nikanor]

I'm prodding him.
With my fists.

[Nikanor]

If she's scum I'm unilaterally declaring that I'm cleared as a possible scum-buddy.0

As a connection to Zach's first post of today, Lowell's trying to cover his tracks with this post.

Vote: Lowell.

However, I want to note that there was waaaay too much lurking coming from certain players during the lynching of farside yesterday. If the lurking trend continues for those players, I will wholeheartedly change my vote to said lurkers.
That is all.

[Nikanor]

Zach, SC: Why did you unvote farside and vote Lowell on page 17?

[Nikanor]

I'm pretty sure that I unvoted nhammen and not farside.

That's true, sorry.

farside, as a desperate scum, decided to claim cop, and ALSO IMPLICATE HER SCUMBUDDY by "clearing" him? Someone tell me why that makes sense.

I haven't had the chance to fakeclaim cop as scum yet, but when I did get the chance, I planned on 'clearing' my buddy (obviously not now that I've said this). The WIFOM is just too much to resist. I don't see why you say it's a bad idea when site meta is showing otherwise.
Anyway, the reason for why I'm voting you has nothing to do with farside's result on you and everything to do with your reaction to farside's claimed result on you. Unsurprisingly, I'm disregarding the WIFOM as evidence for or against you. The fact that you're using the WIFOM to defend yourself is scummy as hell, though.

[Nikanor]

Technically yes but I want to be 100% sure Lowell is scum first.

a) There's no such thing as 100% sure that someone is scum.
b) You were just rushing the day. Why do you make it sound like you want to wait now?

[Nikanor]

I thought he meant that he wanted to lynch Lowell in order to be 100% sure Lowell's scum.

Ohhh, his post makes more sense now. Never mind me, I'm just off in misinterpretland.

[Nikanor]

Of course I'm still on MrSuave's scum list. Good to see he's actually participating for once, though.
Why aren't you voting, MrSuave?

On another note, Lowell is STILL LURKING and needs to die.

[Nikanor]

Nikanor - prod DTMaster with your fists

I tried, but I didn't see him today.

And it's actually pretty slow if you're just VT. xD

Softclaim noted.

MrSuave, 'throwing your vote around' helps the town get a read on you. I don't know why you'd hesitate to vote someone you think is scum if you were town. I think the real reason for why you're not voting Kitty is because you don't want to seem like you're hopping on the wagon that Lowell just started, which you're doing anyway by saying she's scummy, by the way. Just because you're not voting her doesn't mean you're not jumping on the bandwagon.

[Nikanor]

ITT wall of text kills my motivation.

[Nikanor]

I don't think anything about my behavior or anything I said shows that I was looking to get MrSuave lynched.

Except that you voted for him to be lynched. That's what a vote is - a vote to have that person killed.

I know you all knew this already, but we have a lazy, lazy mod. I was sitting next to him today at the university, and I watched him type out the words 'Lowell has been prodded,' then I watched him delete them because he was too lazy to actually go and send Lowell the pm. I almost slapped him.

@Mod: Can you prod Lowell please?

There. Now you HAVE to stop being lazy.

[Nikanor]

There's this thing called a pressure vote. I take it you think it's not a good reason for voting for someone?

I think pressure votes are good. However,

I don't think anything about my behavior or anything I said shows that I was looking to get MrSuave lynched.

vote MrSuave

Lowell's lynch is just as good if not better, but I mean, just look at what MrSuave posted on Day 2 and Day 3. It's ridiculous. We don't need Lowell at L-1 yet, in my opinion.

That's the entire post where you vote MrSuave. I don't see anything there indicating anything other than that you were 'looking to get MrSuave lynched.'

[Nikanor]

I think I was overreacted just a bit isoing him. My main purpose was to put pressure on him to say something.

My issue with it is that you didn't indicate that it was a pressure vote. In fact, when you voted, you made it sound very much like you wanted him lynched.

I'm having a hard time seeing Lowell scum after reading this again. (If Lowell is scum, he knows there's 3 scum regardless of how badly he misreads the roles or setup.)

Really, Zach?
Example of scum making a 'mistake.'
A mistake in that scum only had one veto, while Cojin said they had two.
Plus, what do you think the odds are of Lowell, a guy who has been around the site for longer than you have, Zach, forgetting how many scum are in a twelve person game? It just screams 'intentional mistake' when I look at it that way.

[Nikanor]

so you're saying that your vote was mearly a pressure vote? o___o

It's good to see you're back to active lurking.

[Nikanor]

Okay, but that's forgetting that there is a roleblocker in F11 mountainous. Lowell forgot how many scum were in a twelve-person game. There's a big difference in magnitude between those two mistakes.
I think the fact that I've seen experienced players make that mistake more as scum than as town is factoring into my view on this as well. I've even been lynched for faking that mistake as scum before. Mind you, this was on #mafia where people are a lot more carefree with their lynches, but it still has an impact on the way I see the situation we're now in.

Also, if KittyMo is raising red flags for you, why are you not voting StrangerCoug? How is SC scummier than she?

[Nikanor]

why are you not voting StrangerCoug?

Why are you voting SC instead of Kitty, I mean.

[Nikanor]

Zach, what about the red flags coming from KittyMo that you were talking about in 635? That was a good point; good enough to make me waver on my opinion of Lowell. What happened to it?

[Nikanor]

So the red flags look more like scumbuddies, you mean? I was thinking the 'Lowell lynch is just as good as Suave lynch' was fencesitting in case she needed/wanted to flip back to Lowell, but I guess it does make even better sense for it to be scumbuddies.

[Nikanor]

I have also considered the possibility that she's distancing from the Lowell lynch because she knows he'll flip town.

In that case, why would she say that Lowell is just as good a lynch? It's slightly WIFOMic, but it doesn't make sense for her to be scum distancing from a townLowell lynch with her vote on Suave.

[Nikanor]

I think Lowell already claimed VT, tbh.

[Nikanor]

The "might have this narrowed down enough" comment would support my idea that he got town results each time

I support this. However, inspection results shouldn't be trusted, etc.

well... there goes my theory... But there's still a tailor out there.

ah, okay. I misunderstood what the tailor could do.

We've been over this before, iirc. I don't think even MrSuave could make this mistake twice, so I'm going to say it's a scumslip.

And Nik is starting to give me a bad feeling again. I don't like bad feelings, especially coming from Nik's direction.

I haven't even said anything today, so I don't know how I can be giving you bad feelings. What in particular is giving you this bad feeling?

Also, Nik has been online, because I've seen him on msn since the thread has gone up. And he LOVES mafia, so I don't see why he wouldn't check his games like he always does.

I've been busy. Work, etc. Take a look at my recent posts. All I've been posting lately is votecounts and 'I'll catch up Sunday' posts.

Well, Zach's flip explains my gut read on him...I could tell something was weird with him, but I wasn't sure about it.

So you thought he was the cop?

Vote: MrSuave.

I still haven't forgotten the fact that you completely misrepped and dodged my questions on day one, as well as the fact that you lurked through ALL of day two, which just so happened to be the day that scumfarside was lynched. Not to mention the totally craptastic vote on KittyMo at the start of the day. Explain to me exactly what your 'hunch from yesterday' was. The only justification I can see for your suspicion on KittyMo yesterday and today is this:

At one point she notices Farside, Zach, and Kitty make some kind of voting triangle

Which is bogus to begin with, and now definitively invalid as Zach flipped town. So tell me Suave, what exactly is your reason for voting KittyMo?

[Nikanor]

when have we been over this? if it was day 2, I wouldn't know.

Are you saying you haven't even read day two?

I still have a feeling that Jazz was on to something.

Kill speculation is not adequate reason to vote someone. If Jazz were here, she'd totally bust your ass for this, and you know that.

I have a feeling that she could have locked scum down if she hadn't died.

Uhm, maybe that's because she was a cop, the second most overpowered normal role in existence?
(The first is town roleblocker, for those of you who were wondering).

[Nikanor]

And are you saying that Jazz got killed just because?

I'm saying that there's no way for us to know why Jazzmyn was killed because we can't see the scum QT. Maybe Jazzmyn was on to something, sure. But maybe scum picked up on her being a cop.
My problem with your KittyMo vote is that the ONLY reason you have for voting her is the nightkill speculation, which isn't evidence.

[Nikanor]

Hey KittyMo, who are you going to be voting today?

[Nikanor]

Purposefully acting anti-town is more of a null-tell, I'd say. Not scumhunting, though, is a scumtell.

[Nikanor]

This game is dying.

Prods please, oh lazy mod of laziness.

[Nikanor]

I'd like for nhammen's replacement to get in and say something about the wagon before you hammer, if you don't mind.

[Nikanor]

No. As scum, I'd have every reason to be pushing your wagon, because I came up with the case on you long before pretty much everyone else on your wagon... And why in the world would I do that AGAIN as scum when I clearly got a lot of flack for supposedly doing the same thing yesterday? I don't care if you call it "defending", I'm going to analyze your wagon. It would be stupid not to.

Do you think your case is invalid? Do you stick by what or said, or do you discard it? Do you think Suave is scum, or do you think he is town? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you've taken a solid stance on this wagon yet.

[Nikanor]

So... one post in 24 hours.

@Mod: Where are you? You have the whole bloody week off, so don't try to make excuses about being too busy to mod. Has a replacement for nhammen been found yet?

[Nikanor]

XScorp's unvote looks totally opportunistic.
pwnman, why are you sure that MrSuave is scum?

[Nikanor]

Just the timing of it after SC says he's not going to hammer... ugh.

Unvote. Vote: XScorpion.

[Nikanor]

I'm pretty sure Zach is dead, but whatevs.

@pwnman: Post or die.

Whoops, pulled the wrong vote count lol. :[ - DTM

[Nikanor]

Unvote. Vote: pwnman.

Time to die.

[Nikanor]

Aggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
This game is so frustrating. I want to break some skulls, but sadly this is the internet.

@Mod: Massprods and force-replacement of pwnman, please.

Hey KittyMo, who are you going to be voting today?

I really didn't like SC's vote on me, but the fact that he backed off when he realized he was wrong instead of finding other reasons to latch onto the attack me makes me feel a bit better.

My vote probably belongs on nhammen, since he's been chilling in the background and not offering much up, and isn't getting much flack for it.

I want to reread XScorpion and Starbuck (+who she replaced) first, though, to get a better feel for them.

Emergency V/LA from the 11th to the 14th. Sorry for the short notice; just got decided on today...going up to visit my Grandma.

What happened to this?

[Nikanor]

No, but he's not posting and it's annoying the hell out of me. Chances are he's flaked from the site, anyway.

[Nikanor]

Trivia: There's only a week left in the day! Do you want to wait for another 48 hours for the mod to start looking for a replacement? pwnman hasn't posted in the last four days.

[Nikanor]

You didn't. Now post content or die.

[Nikanor]

WHAT THE HELL WAS THAT?!

[Nikanor]

I'm going to go ahead and say MrSuave is mafia.
His buddy is either XScorp or Starbuck, but we can figure out which of those it is tomorrow.
I don't think Kitty is scum.

I'll wait for everyone else to post first, but I think I know already where my vote is going. MrSuave's hammer yesterday was a totally obvious grasp at self-preservation. He hammered pwnman because it was going to be a Suave lynch if pwnman had been given a chance to post.

[Nikanor]

You're going for a Nik lynch, yet you're not voting me. Wonderful.
I'm still waiting on XScorp to post ITT. XScorp, your thoughts are important to me! Please post promptly.

[Nikanor]

You called me scum twice, and even said 'So I'm going for a Nik lynch.' You're indicating that you are 100% going to vote me today. What are you waiting for?

@KittyMo: That means absolutely nothing in an open game, obviously. Also, who's to say you haven't crumbed cop somewhere else?

[Nikanor]

...which is why I didn't indicate that I should be confirmed.

...Which is why I said 'obviously.'

I'm not going to scour your posts because I don't think you're scum anyway.

[Nikanor]

I was waiting for XScorp to post, Suave, as I said I would in my first post of the day.
XScorp, why aren't you voting MrSuave after saying he's 'scum for sure?' Alarms are going off in my head at the moment, 'BUSSING, BUSSING!'

Vote: MrSuave.

[Nikanor]

what a nice interacting between you two. "waiting on XScorp"? psh.

Yes, I like to hear from everyone before voting in lylo. Do you have a problem with that?

and then XS saying I'm scum for sure, then not votimg me, as Nik points out. The problem with that is, he says that there are alarms going off, yet he votes me. Nik also hasn't been quick hammered yet either. So right now I am 99.9% sure he will flip scum. Why not 100%? Because there is never a 100% in this game till a flip.

Yes, bussing alarms. I said that in my post. Learn to read.

Why did Nik still vote me, and XS didn't? Because they're hoping someone will be dumb enough to vote me and then quick hammer, because I'm obviously on to something. Nik also adds the alarms part to his post so if things go south he can bus XS to save his own hide.

I like how you STILL have no evidence against me. Your entire case relies on you being town. So if we take out the assumption where you're town (which I know to be false anyway), we're left with a big heap o' nothing. And that is essentially why your case holds no water.

[Nikanor]

How can you say that you KNOW I'm not town. The only way that anyone KNOWS anything is if you were a cop and found something, which you're not, or if you are scum.

Yeah, because I would KNOW you're scum if I were scum, sure.
You're just making stuff up now.
The only difference between what I said and what you said is that I actually have the balls to say that I know you're scum. You say that you're 99.9% sure because you want to make absolute sure that you don't seem too sure about anything, because that would seem scummy.
And that is just another thing that makes you scum.

[Nikanor]

Pretty much everyone has seen my vote, and you havn't been hammered yet which means you're scum.

Your entire case relies on you being town.

[Nikanor]

^5 Starbuck.

[Nikanor]

I agree with everything yabba said about MrSuave. Suave, you have to make form arguments! Saying that someone is scum based on gut, no matter how good your gut is, is not going to get a person lynched. You have to be able to pull things together to make a case.
Everyone can understand and agree with logical evidence; not very many people will follow a gut read.

[Nikanor]

DTM or Starbuck or farside can post the QT. I lost my bookmark for it. :/

[Nikanor]

Starbuck was the tailor.

[Nikanor]

http://www.quicktopic.com/43/H/RE9Zqu9bPmgJP
I found it! Enjoy.

[Nikanor]

We totally hit both cops by accident, btw. If Suave and XScorp had been cops, we probably would have been screwed.

[Nikanor]

Wait, Jazz inspected yabba?

[Nikanor]

Yeah, but you've got to think that the probability of the tailor actually targeting the right guy is one in twelve.

[Nikanor]

!vote Endgame_Flavour

It's not exactly normal for all but 2 protown players (yabbaguy, nhammen) to find you scummy for the majority of the game.

Well technically I did not think you were scum, either. And I was more pro-town than half the players in this game, sadly enough. >_>

[Nikanor]

During Night 2, I did a lot of meta reading before sending in my choice for investigation

Uhh, you mean that one game we were in before this one where I did literally the EXACT SAME THING to d3x? I was scared to death that Suave was going to bring that up. >_>

As always, it is a pleasure playing with you, Jazz. One of these games we'll be on the same team.

[Nikanor]

Lol. Best endgame flavour ever.

[Nikanor]

I can't wait to play your theme games. :/