Open 188 - Tweed Mafia - Over!

[Zachrulez]

Ello everyone!

I want to be in a game with no RVS. Therefore, I will vote the next person to random vote.

Well if you don't want an RVS, start some discussion.

Vote:Kittymo

[Zachrulez]

Quick question for both. How is it what she did, did not promote discussion?

All she did was make a statement that she was going to vote anyone who random voted without really contributing an alternative to RVS. I fail to see what she intended to accomplish with that post.

[Zachrulez]

Well, Zach, I was planning on providing another method of discussion, but I had to leave for dance class soon, and didn't have time to come up with one.

Perhaps you should have waited till after dance class to post then?

Zachrulez: What is the scummiest action you can think of off the top of your head, and why?

Any particular reason you're interested in specifically what I find scummy?

[Zachrulez]

Of course, feel free to

answer all the questions if you feel called to do so.

give us your own answers to your asked questions.

[Zachrulez]

Well, Zach, I was planning on providing another method of discussion, but I had to leave for dance class soon, and didn't have time to come up with one.

Perhaps you should have waited till after dance class to post then?

That is all you got after her post?

Apparently all the other stuff I typed out was not worth quoting?

[Zachrulez]

Any particular reason you're interested in specifically what I find scummy?

No? It was just a random question that popped into my head.[/quote]

Are you saying that you actually want me to answer that particular question?

I can think of a good reason not to.

[Zachrulez]

EBWOP: Here I go screwing up quote tags already.

Any particular reason you're interested in specifically what I find scummy?

No? It was just a random question that popped into my head.

Are you saying that you actually want me to answer that particular question?

I can think of a good reason not to.

[Zachrulez]

Hey Farside, why do you think someone generally asks someone what they find scummy?

[Zachrulez]

See, my thought when I see a question like that is that of a scum player who wants to know what NOT TO DO in a mafia game, a scum player who might be paticularly worried about being caught by a specific player. (You'd have to know my history with Kittymo to fully understand what I'm getting at.)

Do you think the fact that I don't share your stance in this instance makes me more likely to be scum?

[Zachrulez]

See, my thought when I see a question like that is that of a scum player who wants to know what NOT TO DO in a mafia game, a scum player who might be paticularly worried about being caught by a specific player. (You'd have to know my history with Kittymo to fully understand what I'm getting at.)

I pretty much know what you find scummy, Zach, so if that was the reason I was asking, I would ask someone else that question, like someone very experienced (you know about my irrational fear of them, especially when I play as scum xD), or ask Nikanor, because at least on irc, he always seems to catch me as scum, and I am not entirely sure why. But the main point of the question survey was to ask questions relevant to the game at hand, which is why I didn't ask things like "What's your favorite power role: cop, doctor, or vig?" or random game theory that doesn't apply here.

Still, it seems like a strange question to ask, mainly because answering it tells people exactly what to avoid doing in order to prevent me from finding them scummy.

Do you disagree with that assessment?

[Zachrulez]

If kitty can keep up this intensity throughout she'll be an asset. If she can't than this will be a waste of our time. In general I agree with nik's assesment.

unvote, vote zach

. 39 and 41, taken together, rub me the wrong way. 39 is meta and 41 is defensive and meta.

Is it your position that people who make meta arguments are scummy then?

[Zachrulez]

@everyone: What is the best way to get out of RVS?

Generally I will look for something to cast a serious vote on and try to get reactions and positions out of people.

[Zachrulez]

I'd like to see some interest in a zach wagon if folks aren't doing anything other than telling jokes.

And I would like an answer to my question.

[Zachrulez]

@zach- what question are you talking about?

Post 73.

[Zachrulez]

If kitty can keep up this intensity throughout she'll be an asset. If she can't than this will be a waste of our time. In general I agree with nik's assesment.

unvote, vote zach

. 39 and 41, taken together, rub me the wrong way. 39 is meta and 41 is defensive and meta.

Is it your position that people who make meta arguments are scummy then?

Yes, basically. If that's pretty much all they do. It's my opinion that being meta is a good way to appear active while not really ruffling any feathers. This is what I see you doing, even in the way you phrased this question.

Curious that you've shown no interest in suave in that case...

[Zachrulez]

Curious that you've shown no interest in suave in that case...

This is true, but a questionable remark because it also serves to selfishly deflect suspicion.

Huh? So it's scummy that I pointed out that while he was attacking me he was completely ignoring at least one other player who was doing the same thing? That's what you call being selective.

Zach has racked up a lot of questionability so far in my notes:

-the weird vote on Kitty, saying "start some discussion"

How was it weird?

-the abrasiveness, conveyed in post 19 (a real minus, I don't think it was fully explained why you weren't cooperating)

I found the questions she was asking to be scummy. Her question to me specifically.

Explain to me exactly what benefit it would be to the town to reveal what I find scummy. (Which would result in scum consequently not doing the things I tend to find reliably scummy.)

-questionable opportunism at 89 asking for an answer to his own question

So wanting an answer to a question I asked earlier is scummy, but the person who avoided answering the question in the first place is not?

-now the deflection to Suave

Interesting that you characterized my response that way. My point was directed more toward Lowell's selective method of attack, where he is interested in a bandwagon on me due to meta arguments, but apparently shows no interest in other players at all for doing the same thing. What exactly is wrong about that?

[Zachrulez]

@farside- because I only have one vote. Zach strikes me as the bigger offender. suave is just plain lurky.

Hmmmm...

You realize you've never bothered to explain why right? Speaking of lurky... your total contribution to the game is 6 short posts.

If kitty can keep up this intensity throughout she'll be an asset. If she can't than this will be a waste of our time. In general I agree with nik's assesment.

unvote, vote zach

. 39 and 41, taken together, rub me the wrong way. 39 is meta and 41 is defensive and meta.

What specifically about my posts "rub you the wrong way?"

I'd like to see some interest in a zach wagon if folks aren't doing anything other than telling jokes.

*Eyebrow* It would be one thing if you actually put much effort in explaining why you think I'm scummy, but your reasoning is actually quite vague.

@farside- I'm more or less uninspired by Kitty's recent play. She squirms too much for my liking, and overreacted to some mild comments. That said, KingMetaZach looks like a better option.

@zach- what question are you talking about?

Bold indicates you are not reading the game.

If kitty can keep up this intensity throughout she'll be an asset. If she can't than this will be a waste of our time. In general I agree with nik's assesment.

unvote, vote zach

. 39 and 41, taken together, rub me the wrong way. 39 is meta and 41 is defensive and meta.

Is it your position that people who make meta arguments are scummy then?

Yes, basically. If that's pretty much all they do. It's my opinion that being meta is a good way to appear active while not really ruffling any feathers. This is what I see you doing, even in the way you phrased this question.

Your accusation lacks analysis and evidence to illustrate your argument that I'm trying to appear active without ruffling any feathers.

Speaking of trying to appear active... throwing accusations around without backing them up is a really good way of going about that.

FOS:

[Zachrulez]

SC post 68 can't say I agree with you here. Maybe it's the female in me but I know I get that if you don't like it then you do it attitude. No I'm not trying to say this in a sexist way but I've felt many times like Kitty has when someone tells me I fail I will go back at them and say well then lets see you do better.

You are not coming off as sexist. In fact, I'm starting to like Nikanor vs. MrSuave better, and I'm considering voting MrSuave.

Zachrulez, am I correct to assume that you meant to FoS Lowell in post #145?

Yeah.

[Zachrulez]

Ok I've done some rereading

MrSuave, I'm starting to think you're scummy simply because of your overconfidence in the early game. Believe it or not, overconfidence is a scumtell. It's how I always catch KittyMo as scum, hehe.
Anyway,

Unvote. Vote: MrSuave.

You obviously seem to want my vote anyway.

So when you say he's overconfident, you mean that he's too confident in his vote on you?

I don't know if this question was ever answered, but is this kind of play common to town Suave? (The aforementioned overconfidence)

The general idea I'm getting from the back and forth the two of you have is that he's claiming as a qualification to you being town that you must tunnel him, and you have provided evidence to the contrary, (That I haven't actually looked at yet.) that has gone ignored by Suave. Is that an accurate assessment?

I'm not liking Lowell much at this point either, his vote on Suave had weak justification with looks like it's attempting to tack on original thought where there is none.

We also have a lot of people who aren't as active as I would like, and I'd like to see these people get more into the game.

[Zachrulez]

I'm here. Waiting for a response from Nikanor.

Also waiting to see posts from anyone who hasn't posted in this game for a while as well.

[Zachrulez]

Zach talking about something I said that has absolutely nothing to do with Lowell suggests I'm scum with Lowell?

Um, what?

Hey, what do you think about Lowell BTW?

[Zachrulez]

Also, when you guys quote, could you guys put the name of the person you're quoting in those tags please?

It's hard for me to keep it together and figure out who you're quoting...

[Zachrulez]

Nikanor, post 155 awaits your response.

[Zachrulez]

Deadline's in 3 days guys, we might want to come to a consensus on a lynch here.

Unvote: Vote: Lowell

[Zachrulez]

Deadline's in 3 days guys, we might want to come to a consensus on a lynch here.

Unvote: Vote: Lowell

Also, doesn't suave have more votes? If your real purpose were just to make sure we get a lynch, wouldn't you go for the leader rather than suspiciously picking someone with fewer votes?

You have the same amount of votes.

I picked you because I am more suspicious of you.

[Zachrulez]

Deadline's in 3 days guys, we might want to come to a consensus on a lynch here.

Unvote: Vote: Lowell

Why him, rather than Suave or XScorp?

You have the same amount of votes.

I picked you because I am more suspicious of you.

Same amount after your vote. And you saying you are more suspicious of him is meaningless if you don't back this up with reasons. Looks like avoiding the question to me.

Scummiest players:
Zach
XScorp
Suave

unvote
vote Zach

I am willing to change to Suave at deadline.

Seriously? Read the thread.

Scorp looks like a pretty easy target to attack to me, and I'm not convinced Suave is scum. Nikanor has subsequently ignored numerous inquiries from me on the matter, and that doesn't make me any more comfortable with a Suave lynch.

[Zachrulez]

BTW a Zach Suave pairing looks likely from ISOing Zach. But that could just be buddying.

Buddying from who?

Also if you had done an iso read, you would have found the reasons I am suspicious of Lowell. Did you conveniently ignore this and only look for things that fit your pet theory of a scum pairing? (Which you haven't actually elaborated on.)

[Zachrulez]

Zach, what do you think of XScorp?

He agrees with me about the point of finding Kittymo scummy for asking questions about what people specifically find scummy. (Me in that case.)

The whole town players don't attack him theory is just bad play. I find that to be a general fault in the player though and not an indicator of his alignment. (Also I've kinda been there as my early MS play was very OMGUSy)

I think lynching him over the 2nd point would be a cop out.

I haven't really seen anything else from him that really stands out to me one way or another.

[Zachrulez]

Deadline's in 3 days guys, we might want to come to a consensus on a lynch here.

Unvote: Vote: Lowell

Also, doesn't suave have more votes? If your real purpose were just to make sure we get a lynch, wouldn't you go for the leader rather than suspiciously picking someone with fewer votes?

QFT

Actually you're vote ties the votes between lowell and mr.suave.

Yeah, I'm well aware of that.

FTR I prefer a Lowell lynch over Suave, but I have no problem switching my vote to Suave in a deadline situation, I'm just more of a fan of pushing a lynch I prefer a little more until it's obvious it's not going to happen. (Hence why I switched from Kittymo, who is still bothering me.)

[Zachrulez]

Now for you and Lowell. You say that you are suspicious of Lowell for stating that meta attacks are scummy, but not attacking Suave, who is relying on meta attacks more than you were. Then, when Lowell attacks Suave, he is scummy for attacking Suave. So what is it?

If that had anything to do with why he voted for Suave he never stated it, he just hopped on the bandwagon.

Do you think his switch from me had more to do with the points I said he was ignoring at the time that you seem to think he apparently noticed but never mentioned in his switch from me to Suave?

Is there no room for the possibility that switch happened because there didn't seem to be any apparent support for a bandwagon on me?

If he wanted a bandwagon or even a lynch on me really badly, you would think he would try harder to make a case on me or give any kind of reasoning for why he finds me suspicious. (Meta with no elaboration is simply not good enough.)

[Zachrulez]

Here's the bottom half of my scumlist. (I tried to order it as best I could, but I keep wanting to reorder it...meh):

MrSuave
Zachrulez
StrangerCoug
XScorpion
Lowell
SCUM

So those closer to the bottom are people you are more suspicious of?

Zachrulez, because I know if he is scum he wants me dead ASAP, and I don't understand his inability to read me well. (Yes, this is pretty much all meta.)

How does a potential scum motive for me translate to how scummy you find me? That is just strange.

Also, yes, it has historically been true that you have been a lot better at reading me than I have been at reading you, but like the first statement, I don't understand how this statement makes me scummy.

[Zachrulez]

How does a potential scum motive for me translate to how scummy you find me? That is just strange.

Also, yes, it has historically been true that you have been a lot better at reading me than I have been at reading you, but like the first statement, I don't understand how this statement makes me scummy.

I don't think it's damning evidence, but I think it increases your likelihood of being scum. Now that I think about it, you probably should be higher on my list. Uggggggh.

Sorry, having a crappy day. I would probably be taking a nap right now instead of posting if tomorrow wasn't deadline day.

*Obligatory eyebrow* I'd really like to know how you actually do manage to determine my alignment, and why you are more wishy washy on me than you've been in any other game we've ever played in.

When you say higher on the list, you mean closer to scum? (You have your list laid out in a really weird way.)

[Zachrulez]

If Suave and Lowell's play is questionable, what does that make my play?

All I can really do is sigh at this point.

[Zachrulez]

The vote count is in error.

Lowell actually has 4 votes as Kittymo is now voting for him.

[Zachrulez]

Lowell, you pretty much admitted in your last post that you haven't really played well and you haven't even made a good case toward why you shouldn't be lynched aside from a promise to play better tomorrow, as if we should all ignore your play today.

That is more ridiculous than the wagon on me. (Where none of the voters has an actual justified reason to be voting for me, and the wagon is actually being helped from a vote that was cast on me from the RVS.)

The choice between us really shouldn't be that hard.

[Zachrulez]

Wouldn't it be better to think of the possible motives for yabbaguy's death first?

Don't really think it's going to be helpful, and will actually be a very easy way to distract from actual scum hunting.

With that said, I'm still liking Lowell for scum.

Vote: Lowell

[Zachrulez]

Any chance we should do some sort of mass copclaim situation? Can we use two cops to our advantage here or what?

I'm thinking this would be a terrible idea.

[Zachrulez]

Awww...

That blinking text is awesome and all... but what would have really been awesome is if you voted Lowell.

[Zachrulez]

Any chance we should do some sort of mass copclaim situation? Can we use two cops to our advantage here or what?

I'm thinking this would be a terrible idea.

I think lowell it suggesting what I have seen as a hypoclaim.
IE: Each person say I investigated X player and got X results.
This helps protect the cops from outing their results directly and leaves a breadcrumb for the town incase the cop is killed during the night.

It's still a terrible idea and it's still role fishing.

[Zachrulez]

By the way, this idea is not new.

This is one of the games such a tactic was attempted.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10191

Pretty easy to see how it ended.

[Zachrulez]

You guys are idiots. It's just a suggestion. How bad at this game do you think I am?

vote zach

. This guy is unbearable and obvious.

Your vote is unbearable and obvious.

You gave yourself away by calling for my lynch yesterday while maintaining support of the suave wagon. If you were really a townie trying to lynch the person you found most suspicious, you would have been actively trying to push my bandwagon rather than simply waiting for it to be the largest viable one.

[Zachrulez]

Well farside, think about it this way.

If we were to hypoclaim, the scum could look at all the hypoclaims knowing exactly what results make sense and what results don't.

So pretty much what is going to happen is that the cop's results are going to make sense no matter what if they tell the truth about the results they received from the mod, and more than likely at least some of the vanillas are going to claim results that make no sense and the scum are going to instantly know it, and cross their name off the list of potential cops. (Which is exactly what the scum are hoping for.)

Hence rolefishing.

[Zachrulez]

It's interesting that a few people started harping on Jazz for not posting yesterday in a game with multiple lurkers.

I find it's generally a bad idea to promise a post because I always get lazy and put it off...

Anyway, what I find interesting on top of Jazz's points on Strangercoug not noticing people lurking on day 1 is the way he seemed to be drawing attention to Jazz's lack of timeliness on her promised content . That just seems really off to me

[Zachrulez]

That link that Zach posted in 283 to another game where hypoclaim was done in a game with 2 cops is a good example. It helped the scum tremendously and helped the town not at all. But here's the clincher: farside was in that game, using an alt, and she had to know that the hypoclaim was a bad idea. Yet, in this game, here she was supporting the idea, and she never mentioned that she played in the very game that was linked in this thread.

I did reference that game because I knew she played in it. (My wife was also in that game, that's how I'm aware of it.)

For what it's worth, I read the first few pages of that game, and she was pro-hypoclaim in that game. (Which is worth noting because she was town in that game)

[Zachrulez]

Hypoclaiming does not "help protect the cops" - it helps the scum figure out who the cops are. Plain and simple.

And I will quote why... once again.

If we were to hypoclaim, the scum could look at all the hypoclaims knowing exactly what results make sense and what results don't.

So pretty much what is going to happen is that the cop's results are going to make sense no matter what if they tell the truth about the results they received from the mod, and more than likely at least some of the vanillas are going to claim results that make no sense and the scum are going to instantly know it, and cross their name off the list of potential cops. (Which is exactly what the scum are hoping for.)

So once again, I fail to see how a hypoclaim will help "protect the cops."

[Zachrulez]

Indeed, but two things.

1) farside had to know that she played in that game with an alt but she never mentioned it when you posted the link or when she quoted your post (so either she didn't read it or she hoped to hide the fact that she was in that game with an alt - either way, not pro-town play); and

I agree that doesn't look paticularly good for Farside.

2) in the post-game, in which farside also participated, the scum mentioned how helpful to them the hypoclaiming had been, which should have been a sufficient basis for farside to renounce it in the strongest of terms in THIS game as soon as the suggestion was made, rather than supporting it and claiming that it helps protect cops, etc.

From my memory, she spent a good deal of time arguing with White Castle over the final town lynch in lylo. I'm not sure how much attention she did or didn't pay to what the scum noted.

That's mainly the major doubt that's running through my mind that's keeping her from being my top suspect.

I'm also noting that SC in his post 291 proposed hypodoc claiming, too (I'd missed that previously), and he has not said a word in response to all of the very sound arguments for why it is a bad idea.

He did? I looked at the post, but I didn't see this.

[Zachrulez]

Mod, can we get a vote count please?

[Zachrulez]

It's not just the tailor thing, vanillas can claim innocents on mafia or guilties on townies and be eliminated as potential cops as well.

Regardless of whether it outs the cops or narrows the field, it gives the mafia an edge, why would we want to do that?

[Zachrulez]

But of course if the cop dies, then they can't get anymore investigations, so we don't really get much of an edge at all.

Which is exactly what we increase the chances of if we hypoclaim.

[Zachrulez]

In other words Jazz most of your case is based on my clarification of what Lowell is proposing.

No, it isn't. See my post 305 and subsequent posts.

Regards,
Jazz

That's really bad actually. Trying to make the case about one point and trying to defeat that one point in order to say that you don't have a case at all.

[Zachrulez]

Thinking about it a little bit more.

Why were you so quick to come out and answer for Lowell in 280 Farside?

[Zachrulez]

It would really be nice if the half of the players that aren't playing would actually start playing.

Just a thought...

[Zachrulez]

well, apparently this town needs my input. hm... I don't agree with you that I am scum, but I do agree this game needs some excitment. the whole no lynch at the end of day one was epic phailure, and game us no information. we need to put someone up in a tree to get something hard to pick appart. that's my opinion anyway.

And who do you think that person should be?

[Zachrulez]

Ugh, scorpion is scummy as hell. "Lynch X, then Y, then me" is not "townie matrydom." It's just regular dumb.

Opportunistic attack not followed up by a vote.

[Zachrulez]

In other news, I like Kittymo's points on Nhammen, and really dislike post 368.

I will happily give Kittymo my vote in light of all this

unvote: Vote: Nhammen

Still don't like Lowell, I might also be interested in a Farside lynch as well.

Not really interested in an Xscorpion lynch.

[Zachrulez]

Yet like Lowell, you're not voting your suspect.

[Zachrulez]

And 374 was simuled.

I'm even more confused as you seem to indicate you are more suspicious of SC while voting Suave.

[Zachrulez]

Heh, well now you pretty much voted in direct response to my criticism, but there really isn't any way for you to defend yourself from that, so I'll let it go for now.

[Zachrulez]

Heh, well now you pretty much voted in direct response to my criticism, but there really isn't any way for you to defend yourself from that, so I'll let it go for now.

You can think what you want on it. But frankly I never vote when I'm in the middle of an analysis on a player till it's complete. I want to make sure I have everything down and look at everything from all sides before laying down a vote.

Fair enough.

What are your thoughts on Jazz? I'm curious.

[Zachrulez]

Yeah, I was kinda hoping for a little bit more, but what you posted is pretty clear.

I'm parsing through your suspicions on the previous page now.

[Zachrulez]

I don't really like the attacks on Xscorpion.

I'm trying to be careful not to overly excuse his general bad play, but I have a gut town read on him, and I feel pretty strongly about it, as a result I feel uneasy about pretty much any attacks on him.

Lowell I just get the sense you're soft on. Can't really explain it past that, but it's something I generally don't like.

StrangerCoug could use some pressure. I do agree that his play has been questionable.

Your points on Mr Suave are pretty sound, but I can understand why others find the attack suspicious given your stated position on meta.

Also, I have a town read on Jazz which is pretty much based on the reasoning you laid out.

So yeah, kind of a mixed bag here.

[Zachrulez]

Yeah, it was a bit hypocritical, though his position was conditional on the cops having a guilty I believe.

I still can't see where SC endorsed hypoclaim. Am I missing something?

[Zachrulez]

How is he endorsing it? I see him attacking Lowell for suggesting it.

That's what's confusing me.

[Zachrulez]

How is he endorsing it? I see him attacking Lowell for suggesting it.

That's what's confusing me.

I see the I don't care if we do the hypoclaim was a bit odd but the second comment where he is more clear saying

I meant that I view it as scummy as proposing that the two cops out themselves, which I interpreted Lowell as saying in what I quoted in 291

I took this to mean two seperate things from his statement here outting the cops bad, hypoclaiming I don't care.

Oh, when I read it I read it as outting the cops is bad. I don't care if we claim so and so, it's still bad.

I can see how I'm interpreting it different from you and Jazz now.

[Zachrulez]

I think that's the longest post I've ever written. Sorry.

I've seen longer, much longer.

Such things that can melt one's eyes.

[Zachrulez]

Yet you've had no followup on me or any questions or inquires related to me in quite some time.

And not a soul has appeared interested in joining you in voting for me, so it just feels like you're trying to open up another option now.

[Zachrulez]

Hey guys, I have a bit of a flu bug going on right now, so there probably won't be too much out of me in the way of posting today.

[Zachrulez]

The pace of this game is ridiculous.

It feels like we're headed toward another no lynch.

You can't lynch scum by no lynching...

[Zachrulez]

We really don't want that to happen because this time we'll actually lose a lynch if we don't lynch.

[Zachrulez]

farside22 is a good bet to be making for scum here, guys. Go after her.

Maybe, I still prefer to see Lowell or Nhammen lynched, in that order.

[Zachrulez]

Unvote, Vote: Lowell

[Zachrulez]

I've been re-reading.

I'm going to go over the hypo claim and where my thoughts on it came from first

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8924

This is the game I was mod in. They did a hypoclaim for the cop (fbi) and even though I knew who the cop was it actually confused the mafia more then helped. If fact

the mafia guessed completely wrong and lost.

Very different game there, no mafia kills, a SK, no scum chat to look at (that I could see), no evidence that the hypoclaim didn't help them, no evidence that the "mafia guessed completely wrong and lost", particularly in light of a SK making an entirely ludicrous fake claim of being the FBI agent and then self hammering, and frankly entirely irrelevant.

Upon further review, not only was that game completely different than this one, and not only did it provide

no

evidence of hypoclaiming being helpful to the town as farside claimed,

she lied

about the outcome. The mafia didn't lose that game as she claimed, the mafia WON that game.

Confirm vote: farside

I read up to that point.

What... the... fuck?

Unvote: Vote: Farside

Yeah, that's good enough for me I think.

[Zachrulez]

hahahaha...

[Zachrulez]

So you believe your result Farside?

[Zachrulez]

I thought my laugh was better.

[Zachrulez]

Farsiiiiiiide.

So you believe your result Farside?

Answer the question please.

[Zachrulez]

Well she clears me so I'm game. I'll believe it.

XSCORPION, ZACHRULEZ

YOUR THOUGHTS ON THIS POST PLEASE?

Hold on... more pressing matter first.

[Zachrulez]

Heh, now you're thinking.

I'm at L-1. Time to claim

farside22 (5) - Jazzmyn, Nik, Zachrulez, kittyMo, xscorpion

I'm a cop. I checked lowell last night after all the hoopla and got an innocent. I was trying to not say he was town without tipping my hand

Problem is the claim post indicates that you feel that Lowell is likely town.

Bigger problem is this post.

You guys are idiots. It's just a suggestion. How bad at this game do you think I am?

vote zach

. This guy is unbearable and obvious.

I missed the OMGUS vote.

FOS: Lowell

Starting to think you are acting out because your idea got shot down by zach and scorpion.

Yeah...

[Zachrulez]

Well she clears me so I'm game. I'll believe it.

XSCORPION, ZACHRULEZ

YOUR THOUGHTS ON THIS POST PLEASE?

Yeah, it's crap given the fact that he's a likely tailor target regardless of his alignment. (That is WIFOM though.)

What's more important I think is the fact that he was LURKING up to this point and was quick to give his thoughts on the claim... lol

[Zachrulez]

I also don't like the fact that the claim came unrequested.

[Zachrulez]

Ideally someone who's prepared to hammer you should ask.

I mean your whole point about being hammered unclaimed makes sense, except that I've been scum before and I DO THE EXACT SAME THING.

[Zachrulez]

You should make a text decoration that states Lowell is lurking.

You could also add lurker scum to the end... if you like.

[Zachrulez]

Would be nice if we had the mod around to confirm that was the hammer...

[Zachrulez]

The tailor, based on my understanding, targets someone at night and that makes their target appear innocent to cop investigation.

Not quite, the target returns a false result.

Guilty if town, innocent if scum.

[Zachrulez]

You know since being hammered, Farside hasn't bothered to come on and tell us who she thinks we should go after next.

Probably a good sign that she's not going to flip town.

[Zachrulez]

Well she clears me so I'm game. I'll believe it.

Just in case anyone forgot about that post.

Vote: Lowell

[Zachrulez]

Also I'm trying to zero in on a third scum, but one isn't really screaming out at me at the moment.

My gut's saying either Suave or SC.

I think Nikanor, Kittymo, and Xscorpion are town.

Might have this narrowed down enough in my mind to be comfortable lynching everyone else.

[Zachrulez]

Zach, SC: Why did you unvote farside and vote Lowell on page 17?

I'm pretty sure that I unvoted nhammen and not farside.

Unvote:

To prevent a quick hammer. This day is poised to finish ridiculously quick.

[Zachrulez]

This is insane idiocy. I mean, comical insane idiocy.

So everyone's theory is thus:

farside, as a desperate scum, decided to claim cop, and ALSO IMPLICATE HER SCUMBUDDY by "clearing" him? Someone tell me why that makes sense.

I swear to god, if I ever had a scumbuddy who did this to me, I would bus the crap out of them, then find them in real life and punch them in the face.

WIFOM

vote scorpion

. He's the most smug about this idiotic idea.

That's a pretty weak reason for a vote.

One other note: the remaining cop is now useless.

Do enlighten us as to why.

[Zachrulez]

Nevermind, I misread the roles. I thought it was two cops and two mafia, in which case the last mafia will just tailor him/herself every day. It's not, it's three. Carry on.

Why do you seem to know for a fact whether or not the tailor is still alive?

[Zachrulez]

You do realize that all the mafia flip that way right?

[Zachrulez]

Buddying and Chainsaw defense are two clearly different things.

Which do you think Farside was doing in regards to Kittymo, nhammen?

[Zachrulez]

Yeah, I want posts from teh lurkerz.

Also want to see what Starbuck has to say.

And I much prefer being in the hammering position as opposed to having someone else there.

[Zachrulez]

Lowell has gotten quiet yet again...

[Zachrulez]

Why do I have the sneaking suspicion that XScorpion is trying to stall discussion of a lynch of anyone other than Lowell? I mean, yeah, I want Lowell dead, but why are the other avenues closed? I don't get it.

What's the point of this?

Is there someone else we should be considering lynching?

[Zachrulez]

Don't want to lynch MrSuave today.

Maybe tomorrow.

[Zachrulez]

MrSuave was also one of Farside's major targets, which is another reason to give pause to the idea of lynching him.

[Zachrulez]

Don't want to lynch MrSuave today.

Maybe tomorrow.

I'd rather lynch Lowell today too probably.

But Suave needs to post content.

NOW

.

Probably?

[Zachrulez]

The only vote on the Farside wagon that really feels like a potential bus to me is SC's vote. I can't really explain why either cause it's mostly just a gut feeling.

I also have a gut feeling that Suave is town too, but I can't really explain that much either. That said, his play is ridiculously anti-town.

On another note, Lowell is STILL LURKING and needs to die.

[Zachrulez]

When you decide to stop lurking Lowell, explain to us why XScopion is your top suspect and why it's no longer me.

[Zachrulez]

a) thinks scum bussed farside for some reason, and that obv. town Kitty and/or Zach are "probably" scum (yeah ok </sarcasm>).

When did I become obvtown? Earlier you were soooo pushing Me/Lowell/Farside.

Same question for Zach.

I haven't said you were obvtown have I?

That said, things have changed since day 1, and I've found your play to be more pro-town in general.

[Zachrulez]

Oh what's going on?

Oh... that, Lowell is still lurking... yeah...

Starbuck too... where are yooooooooou Starbuck?

[Zachrulez]

And Starbuck has been posting in other games...

[Zachrulez]

well, I think I'd be better scum, but when I'm stuck as town, yes I appear useless at the start. but I am forming opinions. D-1 is just the luck of the draw, D-2 I wasn't there for pretty much, but I would have said something if I was. why do I sign up? well how will I ever play scum if I don't join games right? xD

I seriously don't understand why you sign up for 12 player games with the hope that you'll end up scum, and then ignore the game until it gets to smaller than the start of a newbie setup if you happen to end up as town.

Do you really do this Suave?



Add in obligatory "Where is Starbuck?" comment.

[Zachrulez]

^ This is actually the first example I've seen of Lowell actually scum hunting.

Even more bizarre is that his points make sense.

[Zachrulez]

Yeah they do.

If you bring up your iso, you've pretty much been all about MrSuave after you paid lip service to a Lowell lynch that has had a lot more interest.

[Zachrulez]

Yeah they do.

If you bring up your iso, you've pretty much been all about MrSuave after you paid lip service to a Lowell lynch that has had a lot more interest.

All right. In the future I'll make sure to remember that cutting off discussion and pushing the same lynch everyone else is is a towntell.

Which is why you paid lip service to Lowell being the best lynch while voting for Suave?

That doesn't really make sense.

[Zachrulez]

I think you give yourself too much credit. Getting you lynched is something scum could easily get away with without losing any "cred" because pretty much everyone still alive thinks you should be lynched. I don't really see how staying off the wagon gives me more "credit."

And look at farside's interaction with ME and tell me she was not doing the exact thing you're accusing me of doing to you.

I don't drink wine...

[Zachrulez]

interesting... after Lowell votes kitty, Zach turns on Kitty, even though right before I stated my thoughts, Zach was totally agreeing with what Kitty was saying. tell me Zach, why the change in heart? was Lowell's vote really that compelling to you?

What was Kitty saying that I was agreeing with?

Regardless of any of the things we may agree on, her vote on you seems distracting. She's pursuing your lynch while seeming to be of the opinion that Lowell is the better lynch. Does nothing about that look just a bit off to you?

[Zachrulez]

Starbuck, who's your top suspect? I've looked through your catch up posts, but it's not clear to me who you suspect most.

[Zachrulez]

Meh... there's actually a post from Lowell that's been eating at me because it doesn't really make sense if he's scum.

Vote: StrangerCoug

[Zachrulez]

Nevermind, I misread the roles. I thought it was two cops and two mafia, in which case the last mafia will just tailor him/herself every day. It's not, it's three. Carry on.

I'm having a hard time seeing Lowell scum after reading this again. (If Lowell is scum, he knows there's 3 scum regardless of how badly he misreads the roles or setup.)

[Zachrulez]

I'm having a hard time seeing Lowell scum after reading this again. (If Lowell is scum, he knows there's 3 scum regardless of how badly he misreads the roles or setup.)

Really, Zach?
Example of scum making a 'mistake.'
A mistake in that scum only had one veto, while Cojin said they had two.
Plus, what do you think the odds are of Lowell, a guy who has been around the site for longer than you have, Zach, forgetting how many scum are in a twelve person game? It just screams 'intentional mistake' when I look at it that way.

I thought about that. It's possible, but it requires a lot more thinking and advanced planning. I'm occam's razoring this one.

[Zachrulez]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=510

A player that was town in that game made a similar mistake. (And has been on the site longer than me.)

It's just just that, Kittymo's reaction to him and her actions toward the lynch raise even more red flags and doubts to me about Lowell's flip to the point where the main thing I can think of to justify the lynch in light of it all is the belief that we really need Lowell's flip to move forward with the game, and using that as a basis to lynch really feels like a cop out to me.

[Zachrulez]

Okay, but that's forgetting that there is a roleblocker in F11 mountainous. Lowell forgot how many scum were in a twelve-person game. There's a big difference in magnitude between those two mistakes.
I think the fact that I've seen experienced players make that mistake more as scum than as town is factoring into my view on this as well. I've even been lynched for faking that mistake as scum before. Mind you, this was on #mafia where people are a lot more carefree with their lynches, but it still has an impact on the way I see the situation we're now in.

Also, if KittyMo is raising red flags for you, why are you not voting StrangerCoug? How is SC scummier than she?

Mostly it's a feeling that SC's Farside vote is more likely to be a bus.

Kittymo had time and oppurtunity to unvote. SC's vote looks more like an attempt to grab town cred to me.

[Zachrulez]

My discussion with Nikanor regarding Lowell has got me thinking about my wavering on him. I think I may just be doubting the lynch because the answer just seems too easy. (Which is not really a valid reason to oppose it.)

I can't really excuse Lowell, he's been too scummy and lurked too much. The pace of this game is suffering as well due to a general lack of posting from multiple players.

Unvote: Vote: Lowell

(L-1)

I want a claim from Lowell.

[Zachrulez]

I had a lengthy discussion with Kittymo about it. It's the fact that she doesn't really seem very willing to support a Lowell lynch and is more interested in Suave. That whole thing just seems like a distraction.

[Zachrulez]

Her play in general also leaves some question marks. Particularly her early play.

[Zachrulez]

So the red flags look more like scumbuddies, you mean? I was thinking the 'Lowell lynch is just as good as Suave lynch' was fencesitting in case she needed/wanted to flip back to Lowell, but I guess it does make even better sense for it to be scumbuddies.

That is a plausible possibility I have started to think about. I have also considered the possibility that she's distancing from the Lowell lynch because she knows he'll flip town.

[Zachrulez]

I have also considered the possibility that she's distancing from the Lowell lynch because she knows he'll flip town.

In that case, why would she say that Lowell is just as good a lynch? It's slightly WIFOMic, but it doesn't make sense for her to be scum distancing from a townLowell lynch with her vote on Suave.

You're right, it does keep the option of his lynch open.

[Zachrulez]

I had a lengthy discussion with Kittymo about it. It's the fact that she doesn't really seem very willing to support a Lowell lynch and is more interested in Suave. That whole thing just seems like a distraction.

I think you are wrong here. I mentioned it in my catch up post. She's voting for Suave, but said she'd be more interested in a Lowell lynch.

Yeah, her stance doesn't really make any sense. I tend to look more at where the vote is vs what the player is saying.

[Zachrulez]

Meh... there's actually a post from Lowell that's been eating at me because it doesn't really make sense if he's scum.

Vote: StrangerCoug

Elaborate please.

That you have moved your vote does not give you the right to ignore me.

FoS: Zachrulez

You were next on my suspicion list. I think I cover it in iso 113. The rest of it's gut.

[Zachrulez]

Your placement on the wagon and a gut feeling about your hammering post.

[Zachrulez]

Let's keep in mind that the day ends Wednesday and we need a hammer for a lynch by then, otherwise there won't be a lynch.

[Zachrulez]

We still had two days to deadline, and I was curious whether Lowell actually had more to say, but given all the stalling he's done, I can't say I mind that hammer overall.

[Zachrulez]

I saw DTM around posting while the hammer went down.

Nikanor, if you would be so kind as a prod DTM with your fists at the next available opportunity?

[Zachrulez]

Was that the end of the game?

[Zachrulez]

Process of elimination pretty much had me down to Nikanor and Starbuck, but I died before anything could come of my Starbuck investigation on night 3.

I regretted not claiming, as I felt I did something over the course of day 3 to give myself away.

There wasn't really any breadcrumbing to my results. I had innocents on KittyMo, and Nhammen. Out of those I trusted the Nhammen result less, but his later lynch on day 4 made me wish I had spoken up.

I wasn't really surprised when the scum turned out to be Nikanor and Starbuck though, I really didn't believe that Xscorpion or Suave were scum.

[Zachrulez]

Surprise...

I don't think I would have ever bothered to investigate Mrsuave... haha

[Zachrulez]

I'm not sure why it should be made a group ability, personally, the element of having the tailor and not knowing when it was lynched had me 2nd guessing my results the entire game.

[Zachrulez]

Zach: Following up on the above, perhaps I was too quick to say that you were not scummy at all to me, so if that contributed to your eventual lynch led by the scum, I apologize.

Well first off I was nked.

2nd, I don't think that ended up mattering that much anyway. I'm not sure of the exact reasoning for my nk, I'm sure it had a lot to do with the fact that I was likely to be standing in the way of a Suave or Scorpion lynch.

As to yabba's comments about your play, I don't necessarily agree. To play the middle is a really delicate balance, and risked you getting run up to the town and claiming anyway. (Resulting in the same NK that you got for being "obv town")

Some of Nikanor's comments and positions twinged my gut late on day 3, and Locke's lurking, and Starbuck's play bothered me. (But not quite enough.) I regret not voicing these things more vocally. As time has gone on, I seem to have lost the edge of my aggressive play, and it's allowed scum to slip away from me...

[Zachrulez]

And on another note, I have noticed a tendency that games that have no lynches on day 1 tend to end up in scum victory. I found it frustrating that the town was unwilling to lynch on day 1, and I think this game, along with a game I modded serve as pretty good models to why you really need to lynch on day 1.