Open 188 - Tweed Mafia - Over!

[Jazzmyn]

Hello, all

I’ve played with many of you before (farside, Lowell, MrSuave, Nikanor, StrangerCoug, and Zach) but there are some new (to me) faces as well. So, "hello again" to those I've played with before, and "pleased to meet you" to the rest of you (KittyMo, Locke Lamora, nhammen, and XScorpion).

As the game mod mentioned, I was on standby just in case Jason had to replace out. So, I have read through the game previously and my game notes are well underway. (My very best wishes to Jason, whose personal circumstances, as I understand it, are quite difficult at present). I’m almost up to date on the thread. Although I do want to do one more read-through now that I’m actually in the game. So, that's what I'm going to do. Certainly shouldn’t take me too long. And once I’ve done that, and updated my game notes, I will be ready to jump in.

Off to re-read now and will post post my thoughts, reads, etc. before long. Best estimate: probably late tonight. Possibly even sooner.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Something came up unexpectedly so I wasn't able to complete this last night, but I'm good to go now. I will have a substantive post up in a couple of hours.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Don't get your knickers in a twist. My notes are lengthy and it takes time to summarize them into manageable sized chunks for each player. I'm nearly done.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

All right, over the next two or three of my posts are the condensed version of my game notes and my reads on players. I'm breaking it down into a few posts so as not to create a gigantic wall of text all in one post.

Locke Lamora: lurktastic beyond belief. Come on, 5 posts in the entire game, over a period of 3+ weeks? This guy needs to be replaced stat.

nhammen: suspicious for replacing in and then seeming to ignore the vast majority of the game, posting only three small snippets from three players and calling them his scum list. There was a heck of a lot more to comment on than those three snippets, and yet he pretty much ignored everything else in the game. He has only 11 posts so there isn't a lot more to say about him yet, but from what I've seen so far, colour me unimpressed. About the NK speculation: not only should it be avoided, but nhammen got it (conveniently) wrong when he said that yabbaguy was most suspicious of farside, SC and Zach. Yabbaguy set out quite clearly in his last post of the game that he was most suspicious of farside, nhammen, XS and Zach, in that order.

Kitty: I'm not sure about her but there are several things in her posts that stood out for me in a negative way. I didn't like the pointless questions in post 15, which might be designed to look like doing something while not doing anything worthwhile at all; in 27, she answered her own questions, also quite pointless, but I notice that she managed to slip in an unnecessary soft claim, which is scummy. I didn't like her snipping at yabba for questioning her "plan" and responding to him with snark coupled with what looks like an appeal to emotion. In 172, in her response to XS's accusations against her, she utilizes WIFOM "IMO it would be stupid for scum to put themselves in the spotlight at the very beginning of the game. That's exactly what they're trying NOT to do" which is meh. Also, I see a possible slip when she says, "I can see that you find what I did to be stupid and/or anti-town. But do you really think what I did made me more likely to be

town

?" (my bolding) For that sentence to make any sense, that should have said scum, not town. Then, she responded further to XS in 183 and 185 but then abruptly refused to do so any further. I'm not a fan of "this discussion is over" type of copouts. In 242, shortly before deadline, she made extremely weak cases on a few players: top scum suspect Lowell because of "bad vibes"; XS for "being a hypocrite" and "tunneling horribly"; SC "just a gut feeling; Zach "because if he's scum he wants her dead asap"; and MrS because of his preoccupation with Nik and because she can’t read him. None of those are legitimate cases.

MrSuave: did nothing but focus on Nikanor the entire day, which is not at all helpful, particularly as his argument (if one can call it that) is based solely on meta (which, it appears, was not accurate either) and the fact that the two are friends in real life. The problem (for me) is that he did the same thing in the last game that I played with him and he was town in that game and he was right about Nikanor being scum. That said, Nikanor is right about MrS not playing so confidently before. In the game I played with them, MrS lurked through the first half of that game and only later came out strongly against Nikanor. Also, I really don't like how he dodged Nikanor's question about the meta from a prior game. That looks like he was trying really hard to avoid answering a question because he knew that the answer was not going to be favourable to him.

More to follow.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

StrangerCoug: His vote on Kitty in post 61 was pretty poor. Even worse is his later trying to justify it by claiming that Kitty was "stalling discussion" by her response to yabba's questioning of her "plan". That wasn't "stalling discussion" - that was snark and a bit of an appeal to emotion. I don't know whether this is SC distancing from Kitty or just jumping on a bandwagon with a crap reason. I also find it suspicious how SC telegraphed his vote for MrS (150) before making it and then seemed to have to be prodded by yabba into actually laying down the vote (more on this when I get to farside), despite saying "Now I am sure." Something just doesn't feel right about that although, again, I waffle a bit on this because of that last game with Nikanor and MrS, because SC was in that game, too, and I know that he was absolutely convinced that MrS was scum in that game, and I remember being suspicious of MrS then too, even though he turned out to be town. So, part of me understands SC's hesitation here, but I still don't understand the "Now I am sure" part. Then, at 203, SC moved his vote to XS after SC voted for Lowell and potentially tied Lowell to Kitty as scum, which I don't know what to make of. I didn't like his post 229 where he said he hadn't noticed anyone lurking, as it was bloody obvious that Scott/nhammen and Locke Lamora were both lurking up a storm at that point so badly that they had posted virtually no content at all. I note this because I think it's very telling that a player doesn't notice that there are severe lurkers at that point in a game (i.e. approaching deadline), which makes me think that scum is pretending not to notice a lurking scumpartner. Lastly, SC's late change of vote in 261 looks bad to me. He unvoted XS saying, "let's make my vote useful" but instead of voting for Lowell who was the only player likely to be lynched at the deadline by that point (as he had 5 votes to Zach's 3 and MrS's 2), he moved his vote to MrS, which was pretty pointless, and not "useful" as he claimed.


Nikanor: all the back and forth with MrS was a grind, although Nikanor was ultimately right about MrS's meta arguments against him. Unfortunately, because of this being such a huge distraction, both Nikanor and MrS got away with not talking about much of anything else for the whole day. So, I have no solid read on Nikanor yet.

Zachrulez: Nothing in Zach's posts so far has screamed scummy to me, other than a deflection in one of his posts to Lowell, in which he deflected suspicion onto MrS regarding meta.

Lowell: This one is pinging my scumdar. In 45, he votes Zach for sketchy reasons. In 87, he seeks more interest in a Zach wagon "if folks aren’t doing anything other than telling jokes" but he was simultaneously ignoring questions still on the table for him and, as far as I can tell, people weren't making jokes. Lowell, what did you mean by people making jokes? Were you trying to downplay XS's stupid posts there? They were stupid, but they weren't "jokes" as far as I can tell. It's already been noted, but Lowell was also calling others lurky while he actually had been a whole lot lurkier than the players he was calling out. I don't understand Lowell's case on Zach. It appears to have something to do with meta, but I don't know what it is. Lowell, can you please explain this to me? Subsequently, Lowell follows farside on to the MrS wagon, again calling MrS "lurky" while Lowell had only 7 posts of his own to MrS's 15. Looks like just an excuse to jump on to a wagon, and doesn't really make sense since he claimed yesterday (and today) that Zach was his prime suspect. Then today, the call for a hypocop massclaim - that is a

really

bad idea and helps only the scum. Losing your composure and calling everyone "idiots" for reacting to such a bad idea, is also meh.

More to follow.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

And finally, farside. I'm calling scum.

farside: in post 40, she tries to gloss over Kitty asking Zach what behaviour he finds scummy. Zach was absolutely right not to answer that question whether he's town or scum, because it only helps scum. So, why was farside so eager to get an answer to the question in the face of a reasonable objection to it? And so eager to vote for Zach when he wouldn't answer it? Then she unvoted Zach when confronted with the obvious answer - i.e. that it only helps scum. But farside is a very experienced player. She knows that answering that question will only help scum. Thus her trying to push it is scummy. And her backing off as quickly as she did makes it look like she wanted to downplay the matter in hopes that she wouldn't be called out on it. There's a lot of defending/buddying going on between farside and Kitty throughout day 1, in my view (from farside's very first post, in fact). Seriously, do an iso read of farside's Day 1 posts and you will find that all she did was talk about Kitty and meta, and cast a few votes for weak reasons. There is no scumhunting and no analysis, and that is just not the town-farside to whom I have grown accustomed.

After saying that meta is over-rated and that she doesn't use it, she then does nothing but talk about meta in half of her posts and she uses it to justify her votes. She voted for Nikanor on the basis of MrS's purported meta on Nikanor, but she never looked to see if it was accurate. Later, she voted for MrS purportedly because the meta he presented on Nikanor was not accurate. (Want to bet whether she actually read the links provided? My money says a resounding 'no'.) So, she claims that meta is useless and then relies upon nothing but meta to vote both Nikanor and MrS. This is scummy.

Then there is her weird question about "what is the best way to get out of RVS?" which is misplaced and entirely useless, but her explanation for it is utterly ridiculous. To me, it looks like she posed the question to give cover to scumbuddies, and to look like she was participating meaningfully in the game while in fact she was not. See her eventual, belated response to yabba's question on this in her post 225. It doesn't even begin to make sense. This, to me, looks like scum scrambling to cover up for a bad move. (As an aside, I also note that she said it was a question from Zach when it was actually a question from yabba - don't know why that is, but just noting it.)

In 141, she simply regurgitates points that others had already made, again to me it looks like she's just trying to pretend to scumhunt.

Then after SC telegraphs in his post 150 that he is going to vote for MrS, farside immediately votes for MrS. Classic scum move - see where someone's vote is likely to go and then go there yourself first so that you're on the wagon earlier and not in a position of having to hammer later on.

Basically, throughout Day 1, she did no scumhunting, did some fishing for things that would help scum, is all over Kitty either defending or buddying, and is contradictory in her use of meta as the basis of her votes. Then today, she subtly suggests that Lowell's hypodoc massclaim is a good idea in her post 280: "This helps protect the cops from outing their results directly and leaves a breadcrumb for the town incase the cop is killed during the night.”

Hypoclaiming does not "help protect the cops" - it helps the scum figure out who the cops are. Plain and simple.

That link that Zach posted in 283 to another game where hypoclaim was done in a game with 2 cops is a good example. It helped the scum tremendously and helped the town not at all. But here's the clincher: farside was in that game, using an alt, and she had to know that the hypoclaim was a bad idea. Yet, in this game, here she was supporting the idea, and she never mentioned that she played in the very game that was linked in this thread.

Scummy scum scum.

She backed off of her post 280 somewhat in her posts 285 and 289 but again, she knows that it is bad for town and she still supported it in her 285 and did not speak up about how or why it is so bad for town.

Vote: farside

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

It's interesting that a few people started harping on Jazz for not posting yesterday in a game with multiple lurkers.

That is an interesting point to note, actually. *Takes names and adds to notes*

I find it's generally a bad idea to promise a post because I always get lazy and put it off...

I don't usually get lazy and put things off and, particularly when I'm replacing into a game, I like to give the rest of the players a head's up as to my anticipated ETA for content. That said, I could not possibly have anticipated the unexpected event that delayed my substantive posting, which involved a not-particularly-bright dog that I was substitute dog-sitting for a day and night, the dog ending up in my emptied-for-the-winter swimming pool, an utterly destroyed pool liner, thousands of dollars worth of damage, and an insurance claim to sort out). It wasn't pretty. Nothing serious, but unexpected and time consuming to deal with.

For what it's worth, I read the first few pages of that game, and she was pro-hypoclaim in that game. (Which is worth noting because she was town in that game)

Indeed, but two things.

1) farside had to know that she played in that game with an alt but she never mentioned it when you posted the link or when she quoted your post (so either she didn't read it or she hoped to hide the fact that she was in that game with an alt - either way, not pro-town play); and
2) in the post-game, in which farside also participated, the scum mentioned how helpful to them the hypoclaiming had been, which should have been a sufficient basis for farside to renounce it in the strongest of terms in THIS game as soon as the suggestion was made, rather than supporting it and claiming that it helps protect cops, etc.

I'm also noting that SC in his post 291 proposed hypodoc claiming, too (I'd missed that previously), and he has not said a word in response to all of the very sound arguments for why it is a bad idea.

One, Nikanor was the first to bring it up, by calling her a liar when it didn't get posted the night she said she would.

This is true. Nikanor brought it up first, but please note that I did not "say I would" - rather, I gave my "best estimate". Nikanor was definitely out of line for calling me a "liar" as he did, and it is suspicious to me that he hasn't said a word about those who are actually lurking, and instead choosing to call me a "liar" solely on the basis of being unable to meet my best estimate of when I would be able to post.

That said, your "checks watch" bit when I said that I would have something up in a couple of hours was also a bit much. I mean, seriously, did you have nothing to do but watch the clock waiting for a post from me? You know, like scumhunting, perhaps?

Two, I was unwilling to put stock in it because some RL issue of hers always seems to come up in games we're in together.

Yes, it's true that you indicated that you weren't "ready to call it a bad thing" and yes, unfortunately, my life is not uncomplicated by RL issues sometimes interfering with my games. On the up side, in this instance, it was just a stupid dog and a ruined pool liner, nothing serious.

I'm going to go over the hypo claim and where my thoughts on it came from first

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8924

This is the game I was mod in. They did a hypoclaim for the cop (fbi) and even though I knew who the cop was it actually confused the mafia more then helped. If fact the mafia guessed completely wrong and lost.

Very different game there, no mafia kills, a SK, no scum chat to look at (that I could see), no evidence that the hypoclaim didn't help them, no evidence that the "mafia guessed completely wrong and lost", particularly in light of a SK making an entirely ludicrous fake claim of being the FBI agent and then self hammering, and frankly entirely irrelevant.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8932

This game I was mafia and suggested the hypoclaim. Although in our scum chats it narrowed down suspects for us we still guessed wrong with the hypoclaim on who was what.

I don't see any scumchats linked there either. Convenient, that. But the fact remains that any hypocop claim helps the scum.

And why didn't you mention that you were in that two cop game that Zach linked earlier, or mention that the scum said the hypodoc claim helped them in that game?

So yes it narrow's it down as scum know their claims are BS but the rest they have either a assumption based on the claims or town does the worst picks without reason which helps the scum.
in both cases this helped from outing a power role to the scum and helped the town more.

This is a nonsensical answer. It's easy not to out the power roles to the scum by, you know, not outing the power roles to the scum and by, you know, not narrowing the field for them by doing something stupid like hypoclaiming.

The only reason I'm not saying lets do this is because of the WIFOM with the tailor in the game. The cop results can be corrupted.

This is also a nonsensical answer. You were supporting the hypodoc suggestion until you started to take some heat for it.

@Jazz - You forgot me

Hmph. Don't know how that happened. I'll add my notes on you in my next post.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Here is the condensed version of my notes on XScorpion.

XScorpion: In his 78, he self voted in response to a post saying the best way to get out of RVS is to do something stupid (could be joking or it could be a way to remove his 'random' vote from MrS). In 84, he voted SC for no discernible reason other than SC asking if XS would like to be useful or whether SC should switch his vote over to XS (potential distancing?) and in 86, he asked SC to pretty please vote for him (this is stupid). In 116, XS unvoted SC and voted Kitty right after SC was put into the leading bandwagon position by yabba, making the new leading bandwagon Kitty's (possible partner or buddying to SC). The reasoning for the Kitty vote seems weak (sidenote: farside’s reaction to it is interesting, though – she says in her 141, “116 I would say it's hard to take you seriously. You're actions are either anti-town/scum or town trying to promote discussion and using traps to bait scum” – wtf does that even mean? I seriously think she is scum.)

Then XS lurks and finally posts at 160, “Kitty come back” and when yabba asks him to continue because he’s still lurking, he says he will when Kitty answers his accusation (which is not a good answer, and I really dislike lurkers); but then he does get back into things when Kitty shows back up and he does a reasonably good job with his subsequent posts. Post 200 is pretty good, and his vote on Lowell has reasoning behind it. On Day 2, XS revotes Lowell and in 271, discourages NK speculation, which is good, but a bit dismissively (could be because he doesn't want players to notice that yabba found farside, him, and nhammen scummy before he was NKed), and the wording of the post bothers me a bit: "I tend to find that night-kill speculation just leads to WIFOM and nothing useful for town. If you want to discuss it, go ahead, but I'm still gonna put my vote back where it was. As for yabbaguy, I'm convinced that his death was as simple as him being seen by scum as the most pro-town player." I.e., he says it only leads to wifom and nothing useful and tells SC if he wants to discuss it to go ahead, but then XS discusses it anyway in his very next sentence.

Then there's this: "I'm much more interested in if there were any successful investigations (indicating scum)" which isn't bad but could potentially be fishing for cop roleclaims. But then he calls Lowell obvscum for suggesting mass cop claiming, which is good because mass cop claiming would be bad (although it doesn't necessarily make Lowell obvscum).

Overall neutral, leaning town.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

He did? I looked at the post, but I didn't see this.

Yes, he did. Here:

I don't care if we all claimed "I investigated X and got a Y on them".

That's a call for a hypocop claim, the way I read it.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

I must be missing something. How is that not suggesting a mass hypocop claim?

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

@ Mod: Can you please prod or replace Locke Lamora?

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

First I never said I was for the idea. I saw the pro's and con's but never said lets do it. Also as scum it helped but wasn't a garentee. Do not put words in my mouth there were not there.

Keep digging, farside. I didn't put words in your mouth. I never said anything about it being a guarantee for scum and I never said that you said "let's do it". I said that you suggested that hypocop claiming would help the cops (because you did suggest that) and it does no such thing. It helps the scum. Period.

As scum it's easy to see if someone is just BS'ing if they are terrible with hypo claim and claim something dumb. However there is guessing it it.

Again, it only helps the scum by narrowing their targets, even if "there is guessing in it" because if everyone makes a claim, some of them are going to be (to the scum) quite obviously wrong, thus eliminating those players as real cops and narrowing the field for the scum to pick off the cops.

As for the game zach brought up. No I didn't look at it because I was commenting on those (1) I remembered off the top of my head and (2) was commenting more on the fact it wasn't a novel concept.

If you didn't look at it, you should have because it was posted as evidence of why hypocop claiming in a game like this is a bad idea, and you cited the post in which it was linked. Secondly, I find it hard to believe that you wouldn't remember that game in light of your big, dramatic spat with another player at the end of the game and during the post-game. I'm more inclined to believe that you remember the game very well, but that you hoped nobody else would actually read it to find out that you played in it with an alt, because you're scum in this game and because you know from that game that the hypocop claiming suggestion is a bad idea for town here.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

@Jazz: What's your opinion of a possible Lowell/Kitty/Farside threesome?

It's possible, but so are many other combinations. I think it's too early to call a trifecta when there are so many possible permutations. First things first, we need to lynch one scum. After that, alliances should become more apparent.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Sweetie I said it helps hide the cops and allows them to give a results so if they die the town has info.

It does not help hide the cops, though. It helps to expose them.

As for remembering all the games I play. The answer is no. The games I remember the most are the ones I had fun in. I'm sure as you get older you may understand that

Now, now. No need to insinuate that I'm too young to know what I'm talking about. I'm quite certain that I'm older than you, and probably by a decade.

But I think that your newly acquired patronizing tone ("Sweetie" and "as you get older you may understand") is another sign that you're scum. I.e. trying to sidestep legitimate accusations by illegitimate means.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

I disagree that it exposes them.

You can "disagree" all you like, but the

fact

is that it absolutely does expose the cops. Anyone claiming an innocent on an untailored scum or anyone claiming a guilty on a tailored townie would be immediately known to the scum to be not-cop, thus narrowing the field for them to hit the real cops.

I doubt your older.

I don't know why you're continuing with this, but I base my guess that I'm older than you on the fact that your son is about 3 years old and my daughter is 21 years old. Lay off the patronizing.

You really remember every single game you were ever in?

Yes, I do but I have a good memory and I haven't played all that many games.

I don't see as not remembering a game I was an alt in is scummy it means it was an unmemorable game.

I'm not saying that you're scummy for not remembering a game. I'm saying you're scummy for all the reasons set out in my posts 305, 313, 325 and 332.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

In other words Jazz most of your case is based on my clarification of what Lowell is proposing.

No, it isn't. See my post 305 and subsequent posts.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

@ Mod: please prod KittyMo, MrSuave and nhammen, and please replace Locke.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

That's really bad actually. Trying to make the case about one point and trying to defeat that one point in order to say that you don't have a case at all.

Indeed, that is precisely what farside is trying to do, which has scummy written all over it.

I will get to the complete 305 post when I'm feeling better I have been sick today.

And once you've done that, I'd like you to also get to my 313, 325, 332, and 340 as well.

I see this thread has no mercy for new years and world wide holidays. I see I see. well I'm going to catch up on my games and I'll post when I've done that.

Some actual content would be nice.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

I went out last night right after work and didn't get home until after midnight, and then tonight I picked my daughter up after work and she's home for the night, so I will catch up on the latest and post tomorrow night (this site is blocked at my office).

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

It's a statement of fact. Nothing more, nothing less.

No, it's certainly a soft claim. As for whether it's factual or not, well, I've played with you in a few games and you've not been "lazy" as a townie in any of them.

More tomorrow ... it took me too long to catch up in my other two games and I'm tired.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

I've been re-reading.

I'm going to go over the hypo claim and where my thoughts on it came from first

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8924

This is the game I was mod in. They did a hypoclaim for the cop (fbi) and even though I knew who the cop was it actually confused the mafia more then helped. If fact

the mafia guessed completely wrong and lost.

Very different game there, no mafia kills, a SK, no scum chat to look at (that I could see), no evidence that the hypoclaim didn't help them, no evidence that the "mafia guessed completely wrong and lost", particularly in light of a SK making an entirely ludicrous fake claim of being the FBI agent and then self hammering, and frankly entirely irrelevant.

Upon further review, not only was that game completely different than this one, and not only did it provide

no

evidence of hypoclaiming being helpful to the town as farside claimed,

she lied

about the outcome. The mafia didn't lose that game as she claimed, the mafia WON that game.

Confirm vote: farside

Also @farside: was your post 353 supposed to be a complete answer to my case on you? Because if so, it's pretty poor and you ignored a bunch of things. Please address them. Here, let me point them out to you.

in post 40, she tries to gloss over Kitty asking Zach what behaviour he finds scummy. Zach was absolutely right not to answer that question whether he's town or scum, because it only helps scum. So, why was farside so eager to get an answer to the question in the face of a reasonable objection to it?

Well? Why were you so eager to get an answer to a question that could help scum, in the face of a reasonable objection to it?

There's a lot of defending/buddying going on between farside and Kitty throughout day 1, in my view (from farside's very first post, in fact).

Why didn't you address this?

There is no scumhunting and no analysis, and that is just not the town-farside to whom I have grown accustomed.

Why didn't you address this?

In 141, she simply regurgitates points that others had already made, again to me it looks like she's just trying to pretend to scumhunt.

In 140 Mr.Suave asked what question. I quoted the question in 141. I don't see your point here.

Are you not even reading? Try again. In 140,

you

quoted a previous question to MrSuave. In 141, you were simply regurgitating things that others had said.

Would you like some wine with that cheese? I voted for Suave for his misinterperpation of meta on Nik.

Uh huh. First you voted Nik because of MrS' meta on him, then you voted MrS for misinterpreting his meta on Nik. (Misinterpreting? Not misrepresenting?) In either case, you voted Nik without knowing or caring whether MrS' meta on Nik was accurate or whether MrS had misinterpreted or misrepresented it, and you voted MrS for "backtracking" it appears.

KittyMo - first post of the game in order to threaten anyone from RVS.

Wait, what? You were defending/buddying KittyMo all of Day 1, and didn't you specifically say that there was nothing wrong with KittyMo's opening post? (I didn't think there was anything wrong with her first post either, ftr) But after I called you out for defending/buddying her, suddenly you see her entry post as 'threatening'? And now you're "leaning neutral to scum" on her? Holy 180, Batman. It sure looks like you were buddying up to her on Day 1 and have now decided to drop the act.

farside22 and Lowell are scum

This is a very strong possibility, indeed.

The way I see it, there is definitely scum among: farside, nik, SC, MrS and Lowell. None of the first four were on the Lowell wagon and they allowed a no-lynch to occur instead while leaving their votes in useless places, even though none of these four players expressed a desire for a no-lynch, none of them expressed the view that Lowell was a townie or that it was a bad lynch, and none of them were VLA or gave any indication that they would not be around at the deadline. The only question is how many scum are among them?

I think farside and Lowell for starters.

More to follow.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

I don't see the soft claim you're talking about.

That would be your "because DTMaster told me I win with the town", i.e. a reference to a town aligned role PM.

Just based on personal experience, I very, very rarely see scum put themselves in the spotlight early in the game. I remember my first game as scum, and on Day 1 I was absolutely terrified of being attacked early on, and definitely focused more on acting protown than pretending to scumhunt and such things. You can call it WIFOM if you want, but that's my experience.

It

is

WIFOM because the reality is that scum do put themselves in the spotlight, precisely because it's convenient for them to say, "Scum would never do that"... etc., etc., ad infinitum. That's why it's WIFOM.

I do this often; if you're the kind of person that looks at meta, you can see for yourself, or if you'd like me to quote past games I can.

Sure, please cite specific posts in which you've mixed up "town" and "scum" in your posts when you meant the opposite.

I'm the kind of girl that makes the long, pretty, well-thought out cases as scum because I don't actually have to figure out who the scum are

Annnd, more WIFOM. I.e.: "As scum, I would do A, not B, and since I'm doing B, I must be town." vs. As scum in the past, you've done A, not B, so this time, as scum, you decide to do B, not A, in hopes that others will think you must be town. Are you beginning to see why posting WIFOM stuff like that is not helpful?

I looked and looked and looked and could not find where farside pushed or voted Zach for not answering KittyMo's question. Could you quote/postlink please?

I read it again and it seems that I conflated farside's vote on Zach for voting KittyMo and farside's pushing for an answer to the question and only unvoting him after being called on the scumminess of doing so, into one. My bad.

Jazzmyn, how do you get 'Overall neutral, leaning town,' out of a post of completely negative points?

Generally, those posts are summaries from my game notes, and the posts include the anomalous stuff, the things to think about, the question marks, the potentially suspicious stuff. My overall reads, though, include gut reads, and all the other stuff in my notes, which I generally don't post until later (on the "don't give the scum too much information on townie reads" theory, and also because I find that keeping some things to myself initially can be helpful in my analysis of players, especially if scum are attacking someone who I have a town read on, which is a better time to pull those things out of my notes).

@Nik: Why did you point out farside's soft claim and not KittyMo's?

@farside: I don't comprehend your post 409 at all. Please explain.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

I find your claim

extremely

difficult to believe, farside.

Your play in this game has been very scummy, in multiple ways as previously set out. I cannot fathom how you could be a cop and support the anti-town hypoclaim idea as you did. Further, if you were a cop with an innocent on Lowell, your FOSing him early on Day 2 is out of place.

I don't buy it.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Why do you think I thought about hypoclaiming. I was hoping not to have to claim and not be forced out like this.

I think you were in favour of hypoclaiming because you're scum, trying to find out who the real cops are.

It doesn't make any sense for farside-cop to post the things you did. Your posts in this game are entirely incompatible with farside-cop, and entirely compatible with farside-scum. On the hypoclaim issue, you kept trying to claim that it "helps protects cops" when it does no such thing, and when it actually just narrows down the field for the scum to try to find the cops; and you claimed that it helped the town in games that you were personally involved in, but it turns out that that was not true at all. You lied, farside.

Add to that all of your other scummy play during this game, and I just don't believe you.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Last game I was at l-1 and I claimed unneeded, that game just ended.

What game was that? Link, please.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

All idiocy. If I were tailored wouldn't I

want

the cop to die to (a) get rid of a cop, and (b) "prove" my innocence?

WTF?

The tailor, based on my understanding, targets someone at night and that makes their target appear innocent to cop investigation.

The way I read the tailor description in post 1 of the game, I take it to mean that the tailor can either make a townie look like scum or make a scum look like a townie.

your vast resources of textiles allows you to change the clothing off another person at night.

This effectively makes the person appear foreign, like your mafia buddies

, to the fashion cop inspections.
...
Even though you hate tweed, you also had to know how to make normal clothes that the township wears. You can

target your mafia buddies to make them look like the average citizen

...

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

*takes notes of those feigning ignorance of the game setup in an OPEN game.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

You know since being hammered, Farside hasn't bothered to come on and tell us who she thinks we should go after next.

Probably a good sign that she's not going to flip town.

Indeed. She hasn't protested her lynch at all, and she hasn't said a word about who we should look to next "once she flips town" as one would expect if we have mislynched.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Edit to add: and farside has posted ~36 more posts today in other threads without posting here. So, I think that's a pretty good indication of her alignment.

Now, where is the game mod?

Sheesh.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

On the up side, I pegged all three scum in this game (weeks ago).

On the down side, after working so hard to get Farside lynched on Day 2, I was NKed by the two remaining scum on Night 2 before I had the opportunity to tell the town what I learned from my N2 investigation (which was a guilty result on Nikanor).

Someone speculated that they thought I had a guilty result on Farside on Night 1, and that that's why I went after her on Day 2, but that was not the case at all. I investigated Yabba on Night 1 because I had a mixed read on him. (I had some suspicions of him during my first read of the game while I was on "standby" status, and yet he voiced suspicions of Farside, and up to then nobody else had voiced suspicions of Farside but I was very suspicious of her, so that countered my suspicions of Yabba). So, I figured that investigating him was the way to go, as I really didn't think he'd be NKed on Night 1. As it turned out, the scum killed him, which only furthered my view of Farside as scum, which is why I went after her so hard and she only reinforced her scumminess throughout Day 2, as set out in the thread.

During Night 2, I did a lot of meta reading before sending in my choice for investigation, and that process convinced me that Nikanor was scum who had bussed Farside, thus my investigation on him, which came back with a guilty. Unfortunately, I was NKed by the scum that night so I never got the opportunity to tell the town what I had learned from both my meta-reading of him and my result.

Very shortly after Starbuck replaced in, I pegged her as the third scum, who had replaced my other scum read, Locke. As the game mod has mentioned, we were in PM contact, and I sent him my scum picks of farside, Nikanor, Starbuck weeks ago.

After my death, I was watching the game and sooooooooo hoping that the remaining townies would see what I saw, but unfortunately, I didn't twig to Nikanor until my re-read during Night 2 before I sent in my investigation target, and by then it was too late too late to say anything in the thread and then I was NKed that night. Having played in a game before with Starbuck, after she replaced in, I was absolutely convinced that she was scum in this game, and she only bolstered my prior leaning-scum read on Locke.

KittyMo: I thought that you were too easily influenced by other players early on but later in the game, I was hopeful that you were about to break through as it seemed that you were almost ready to call Nik scum, but then you backed off. It sort of looked like you were more willing to just go with the flow than to trust your own instincts. I think you should trust your instincts more, right or wrong, because I think you have good instincts but you weren't willing to follow them.

Mr Suave: You are your own worst enemy when you deliberately lurk up a storm or otherwise refuse to participate in the game. Had you been more active in this game, I think you might have been more persuasive in your pursuit of Nikanor, but instead it was too little, too late.

So, this was an unfortunate loss for the town, but it's all good going forward.

Hope to see most of you in another game in the near future.

DTMaster: I think that your own disappearances and lack of activity as Mod helped scum-Nik because it enabled him to post things about knowing you in real life, and about "prodding you with his fists" and such that may have influenced some of the townies into thinking that he was town. I also think that if a mod knows players in real life, there is an even more onerous burden upon the mod to remain active and not to inadvertently give such advantages to his real life friends who happen to be scum, so I think you could have done better in that regard.

Yabba: Yes, I take your point about a cop not being so obv-town and I agree with you, but I also didn't want to suddenly be less obv-town than I usually am. That said, I'm now striving for more of a "keep 'em guessing" approach, so thanks for that.

Zach: Following up on the above, perhaps I was too quick to say that you were not scummy at all to me, so if that contributed to your eventual lynch led by the scum, I apologize.

Anyway, good game, all. (Well, most).

Regards,
Jazz