Mini 905- Mafia in Sienna OVER

[Kitten4u]

/confirm

I think I've played with Kitten4U prior. Is that correct?

I replaced into a game you were modding once, but I don't think we've actually played together yet. Should be fun~

[Kitten4u]

Vote: Sotty7

I was listening to this when I opened the thread. Clearly it's a sign.

[Kitten4u]

Kitten4u, how much have you played mafia in real life? What's one of your real life tells?

Never played Mafia in real life. You actually need to come into contact with like actual people to do that!

On a more serious note, I don't really see a difference between the RVS and the questions you asked. Not to mention RVS was already done for the most part and there were some more serious things you could have commented on. So, who is scum Thesp?

Moving on, I agree with Eek. If Elli had backed off in order to target someone else it wouldn't bother me as much. From that whole RVS wagon stuff I think Elli looks the worst for that reason.

But I don't think Elli is the scummiest right now. That honor goes to Leafsnail who has yet to take a single stance on anything.

Vote: Leafsnail

So who's scum Leafy?

[Kitten4u]

okay the suspicions of leafsnail are complete crap. Just letting everyone know. All he has done the entire thread is point out a rule that contradicts the basics of a game of mafia, and ask Ellibereth if there was a purpose for the jokes. Trying to be serious and hunt scum is now a scumtell? everyone on that bandwagon needs to think about it a little more.

Asking questions does not automatically make someone pro-town. It does automatically not mean they are scum hunting either.

You say I haven't taken a stance on anything, but isn't the whole point of asking questions to form a stance?

Yes. However, a lot of your questions didn't feel relevant and it looked like you were trying hard to look active without actually doing anything.

Actually, something about him strikes me as unhelpful town rather than scum

What's giving you this impression?

[Kitten4u]

I did not say asking the question made him pro-town. I said it did not make him scummy. People were using that as a reason for their vote. I also did not say that asking the question means he is scum hunting. I said I thought he was just taking it seriously and trying to hunt scum instead of joking around and doing nothing for the town *coughELLIBERETHcough*

You said this:

All he has done the entire thread is point out a rule that contradicts the basics of a game of mafia, and ask Ellibereth if there was a purpose for the jokes. Trying to be serious and hunt scum is now a scumtell? everyone on that bandwagon needs to think about it a little more.

No. Excuse me for opposing a bandwagon on an innocent townie.

So you don't think those things make him look townish?

Since you're only focusing on me, you must be very sure that I'm in the mafia. Why?

Saying I'm "very sure" isn't really accurate, but yeah you're my strongest scum read right now. As for why. Well, you answered that question yourself so I have no idea why you felt the need to ask me.

You say my questions aren't relevant, and could be done by scum.

Did you want me to elaborate or something? Because I can do that.

Basically, I'm voting for you for two reasons. The first is that you didn't take a stance on anyone until I called you out on it. I think scum is more likely to do this because they want to avoid connecting themselves to anyone; when someone flips town they don't want to have to take responsibility for being on the wagon (because it makes them look bad) and they don't want to connect themselves to their buddies for obvious reasons. Basically, I believe that not having a stance is a large part of what staying under the radar entails.

However, if scum just did that they would get caught pretty quickly. A nice, easy way to look productive without actually saying anything is to ask a bunch of questions without really doing anything with them. These questions may or may not be relevant, but most of the time they are pretty reactionary. That is the vibe I get from your questions.

tl;dr case: Staying under the radar and active lurking.

pman because of his hopping all over the place

Can you explain what's giving you this impression?

That's interesting. Have Thesp, CrashTextDummie, or Ellibereth taken any stance prior to this vote? It also just so happens that out of the several players who haven't taken a stance on anything, you vote for the one with the largest bandwagon! What a coincidence!

1.) I call Thesp out in the same post.
2.) CTD had the "I don't like MME" stance.
3.) Elli had voted for Leafy before I posted.

So with the exception of Thesp, whom I also call out in the same post, yes, everyone else had taken at least once stance imo.

---

And time for other comments.

I had forgotten that CTD and Jase were actually playing. I agree that they need to say more. I'd also like to hear a bit more from Sotty.

The pman/Elli argument seems null to me. It just looked like a clash of people that disagree with a certain play style. I personally agree that gut is a perfectly acceptable reason to vote (I find way more scum on gut than logic), but I don't think pman is scummy for trying to get Elli to explain the vote.

[Kitten4u]

You're accusing the same Leafsnail who has the most votes and is making the biggest effort to scumhunt of "active lurking"?

1.) I don't see what having the most votes has to do with anything.
2.) I don't believe you were really scum hunting. Again, the vibe I get from all your questions is that you were trying to look busy when you weren't doing anything as I said. Obviously if I thought you were scum hunting with those questions I wouldn't be voting for you.

And the "You didn't take any stances" is bullcrap. I was clearly pushing Ellibereth and ConfidAnon to try and establish opinions. Fine, I wasn't doing ridiculous "LOL HE'S SCUM" random voting, but you should've been able to see what I was doing.

I don't get that impression from your posts.

And yes, you did "call Thesp out", but you didn't make any accusations against him. So, basically, you used the vague notion that I was "Not taking stances" as an excuse to jump on my bandwagon.

Um no...?

So, why was I scummy while Thesp, CTD (who was RVing) and Ellibereth ("It's just gut") weren't?

-Thesp also had no stances which bugged me and that's why I called him out on it. However, I didn't get the vibe that he was trying to look active without really saying anything from him like I do from you, so I considered him less scummy than you.

-As for the other guys I stated my opinion here:

2.) CTD had the "I don't like MME" stance.
3.) Elli had voted for Leafy before I posted.

Well first off, CTD is scummy, but your lack of stances worried me more than his weirdness.
And I consider gut a perfectly valid reason to vote for someone.

Why did you choose to go for the guy who was on his first game on mafiascum and who already had 3 votes on him?

Because I think you're scum.

And, most importantly, in what possible sense am I "staying under the radar"?

It was more of a were than an are. Again, read what I said. I get the feeling that you were asking questions to try to look active without actually saying anything. I feel like you were trying to avoid connecting yourself to other players and the only reason you stopped doing so was because of the bandwagon on you. It's kind of hard to stay under the radar when there's four people that want you dead.

Also, I might have picked the wrong word/phrase to describe what I was feeling. So, if it is, ignore the phrase and pay attention to exactly what I'm saying.

[Kitten4u]

I see you do give some thoughts on CTD later. Can you post exactly what Leaf was doing that makes you think he was fake scum hunting or trying to slip under the radar?

Again, I'm getting the feeling that I'm using the wrong words to describe what I'm seeing. Well, hopefully this'll clear things up.

Why would that be, My Milked Eek? Do you regard a willingness to jump on such bandwagons as a towntell or a scumtell?

For what reason, ConfidAnon? Do you think that starting semirandom bandwagons early on is a good way to get discussion started?

Also, since I haven't played a game with you before, why do you dislike RVS? Do you fear a hammer vote could randomly be reached or do you just think it's childish?

I'm not 100% sure why those quotes are bothering me, but if I had to guess it's because they ask questions with obvious answers and those answers revolve more around game theory than anything else.

Uh... actually, looking at the OP, rule 6 implies that even the mafia members cannot communicate with each other at all. Mod: Can the mafia members talk to each other? If so, how?

Ellibereth - If someone explicitly tells me they are not joking, I generally take that as an indication that they are not joking (I have it marked as the first serious attack on my notes). So, if it was, in fact, a joke, what were you hoping to gain out of it? What reactions were you looking for?

These two strike me as disingenuous, particularly the last one because he said this. Unless I was supposed to take him totally seriously that he thought I was scum because I had Mafia Scum under my name.

So that's what I was seeing. "Staying under the radar" may not be the right term for what I'm seeing, so I'll try to describe it again. Basically, I feel like he was trying to avoid connections with other players, but since doing that would make him look lurktastic and scummy I feel like he opted to ask a bunch of irrelevant/semi-relevant/reactionary questions to make it look like he was doing something.

Am I making any sense?

And Leafy, did the above answer what you wanted me to answer?

In addition, you didn't follow up your question ("So who's scum?") at all, perhaps indicating that you didn't care about my answer.

After reading your list I asked the only question I had and that was regarding your town read on Elli. I didn't really have any questions for anything else, and considering I'm calling you scummy for asking irrelevant questions it should be obvious why I didn't want to ask any questions I didn't feel were relevant.

1.) Okay, but why do you choose Leaf instead?
2.) Were you happy with that RVS stance?
3.) Were you happy with that "gut" influenced stance?

1.) I didn't feel like Thesp was trying hard to look active, so he didn't look as scummy.
2.) Not particularly, but it was better than having none.
3.) Gut influenced is fine by me. I do wish he would try to pinpoint his gut, but I don't think he's really scummy for not doing so.

Also, what do you consider to be a stance? What kind of stances would you be happy with?

_____ should be lynched. ______ idea is bad. _____ is scummy. I think ____ looks better/worse than ____ after that. Really anything that ties players together that we can look at later once we have flips. Obviously, these things should be game relevant and not theory-based or something like that (IE, I don't consider Thesp's thing against the RVS a stance) I think scum will avoid doing this because it's easier to avoid being held accountable for anything and it would make them less likely to be lynched.

Saying ____ is scummy because of ____ is better imo, but after reading several games I've found that town is just as likely to make baseless votes as scum is, so I don't really consider it a scumtell to not explain votes anymore.

[Kitten4u]

@Jase No vote? No comments on either me or Leafsnail?

It was a joke, but I didn't spend the next several posts pushing a lynch on you for it.

This is fair.

But the questions weren't really irrelevant - they were all game related. I mean, I suppose you could accuse me of not caring about the answers, but they did each refer to the game.

I must be terrible at explaining what I'm seeing. Anyway, what were you hoping to get out of those questions?

Her stance of "Ellibereth looked the worst, but he's not the scummiest" rubbed me the wrong way, particularly because I didn't see any reason to suspect Leaf.

I meant out of the pman/MME/Elli thing that had been going on for the last few pages. He looked the worst out of that group, but I thought Leafy was more likely to be scum. Sorry for not being clear.

I am what now? Does "weirdness" equate "scummy"? And what about my play was weird?

Yes because it looked like you were pushing your random vote when there was other stuff to look at from my PoV.

And why didn't you express the feeling that I am scummy until specifically asked?

Because I didn't find you as scummy as other people and I tend to only focus on a few people at a time. It's more of a playstyle thing. Look through any of my games (except maybe my first one, but I was scum in that game anyway) and you'll see that I tunnel badly.

I'm disliking the Kitten4u wagon even more.

This is going to sound like a weird question coming from me, but can you point out exactly what you dislike about it? EDIT: Okay, lots of people were asking this, but I do third this question.

Are you saying there is no difference between making a RVS joke vote and continually joking in the game once it's gotten serious?

I didn't think the game had gotten serious at that point. I thought Elli backing off on his joke was the end of RVS.

I'm disliking Elli more and more.

[Kitten4u]

The prescence or abscence of these things can tell you a lot. Note that these aren't all necessarily scumtells. Other than this... you haven't really asked any questions or made any kind of enquiries in that post. Why?

I only ask questions I consider relevant and important. I find asking anymore than that scummy.

...Though I can't help but feel I've answered this question before.

Who's scum?

You see, it's questions like this that make me suspicous of you. If you can't tell who I think is scum you are obviously not reading the thread.

I still think you are scum.

Contradiction, and when called out, her defense seemed more about survival than helping the town.

Uh, what contradiction? And my defense has consisted of two things: 1.) Answering every question thrown at me and 2.) trying to get Leafy, who I think is scum, lynched. How is that self-preservation-esque at all?

How come? You don't even mention him in the rest of your post.

Eh, Elli's a pretty cool guy. Shamelessly bandwagons and doesn't afraid of anything.

Do you believe that CTD's RVS stance connected him to MME at all?

Yep. Saying ____ should be lynched always connects people to other people imo.

Also, if you actually noticed that Thesp had also not taken any stances, then why didn't you say why you found Leaf more suspicious when you voted him?

I didn't think adding the obvious "and his posts give me bad vibes" added anything.

Then he gets in the squabble with kitten, which, like I said, seems very disingenuous to me, like two buddies having at it.

Is there anything else that's making you feel this way? Because I've been pushing Leaf since my first non-random vote post, so this feels like a really weird stance to have to me.

Slight town read on Elli, helped create discussion that formed my current suspicions.

Is that what you got out of the first three quotes I post in this post?

She votes Leafsnail for not taking any stances when we were about 70 posts into the game and we were just getting out of the RVS imo.

Exactly how much time I give people to say

something

depends on the game, but I felt like I gave people plenty of time to say ____ is scummy (or at the very least ____ looks worse than ____, but I'm not sure if he's scum or not) this game. Considering everyone but two people (three if you count Jase who hadn't posted at all I guess) had one I don't I was being unreasonable.

[Kitten4u]

but the content of them seems forced and does not match the tone.

I was getting pretty discouraged when no one seemed to be seeing what I was seeing and I wasn't quite sure how to explain a lot of it. Could that be what you were seeing? Feel free to ignore this question until you've gotten around to reading me if you think it would be better.

Sorry I missed all of page 9 when I'd posted this (rookie move, I know). It was a post to pman's above. Kitten is fragging me some gut, I'll need to find some links myself.

Can you look at Leafy in ISO too when you look at me?

If the shameless bandwagoning bothers you why aren't you pushing him on it?

Two things. First, Leafy is still worse in my opinion. Second, there's not really much to push when someone is shamelessly bandwagoning.

...And I can't help but feel the answer's equally inadequate.

Wait what? So I should ask questions even if I don't care about the answer and I don't think they will further my read on people?

It's deliberate misquotes like those that make me sure I'm not wrong about you.

Then you're going to have to be more specific with what you wanted. I thought I answered your question.

[Kitten4u]

I'm a vanilla townie. Can somebody (preferably everyone on my wagon) summerize the case on me and/or explain why they're voting for me? Preferably including something that says "scum is more likely to do this and this is why."

With that said, I'm going to eat some food and attempt to explain why I think Leafy is scum again. This might take me a little while to get up, so bare with me. I promise I'll have it up tonight.

[Kitten4u]

So I started playing Umineko No Naku Koro Ni recently. It gave me new insight into how to approach both looking for scum and how to explain what I'm seeing. This is going to be somewhat long because this is

everything

I'm thinking; my entire throught process. This will include things I thought on page 4, this will include things I didn't notice until other people (such as Ythill) pointed them out, this will include things I only started to notice when I started to think too hard (thank you Umineko insight).

Before I get to Leafy, I just to say that yes, it is possible I'm thinking way too hard and that I'm reading way too much into things. That's why I'm not just putting the points on display, but my thought process as well. Tell me where my logic is faulty if it is.

Moving on, I still stand by this case I posted on page 7:

Basically, I'm voting for you for two reasons. The first is that you didn't take a stance on anyone until I called you out on it. I think scum is more likely to do this because they want to avoid connecting themselves to anyone; when someone flips town they don't want to have to take responsibility for being on the wagon (because it makes them look bad) and they don't want to connect themselves to their buddies for obvious reasons. Basically, I believe that not having a stance is a large part of what staying under the radar entails.

However, if scum just did that they would get caught pretty quickly. A nice, easy way to look productive without actually saying anything is to ask a bunch of questions without really doing anything with them. These questions may or may not be relevant, but most of the time they are pretty reactionary. That is the vibe I get from your questions.

That's going to be the closest thing you all get to a tl;dr explanation.

But since that is obviously a terrible explanation since so many people were voting for me because of it let me try to outline some of the things I was looking for when I said that. I will be keeping a tally of these three things:

1.)

Fluffy questions

: A fluffy question is a question that doesn't really do anything. It has a few forms.

• Theory-based (Is the RVS a good thing or a bad thing?)
  
• A question with an obvious answer (Kitten4u, do you like kittens?)
  
• Completely irrelevant (What are you having for dinner tonight?)
  
• Loaded (When did you stop beating your wife?)

I might have missed a couple of things, but those are the big ones.

2.)

Weak stance:

A stance that can be easily changed without looking too suspicious. CTD's stance on MME is an example of this.

3.)

Strong Stance:

A stance that you need a damn good reason to change or you'll end up looking really scummy. I think my stance on Leafy is a pretty good example.

---

So now getting to Leafy. The very first thing that bugged me about him was the questions he asked while the whole Elli/MME/pman/Anon thing was going on. There were a group of people that were blatantly bandwagoning in the RVS, and this is what he asked:

Why would that be, My Milked Eek? Do you regard a willingness to jump on such bandwagons as a towntell or a scumtell?

For what reason, ConfidAnon? Do you think that starting semirandom bandwagons early on is a good way to get discussion started?

So going back to my fluffy question list, those two questions seem to match A and B perfectly.

Counts

Fluffy questions:

2

Weak stances:

0

Strong stances:

0

So I started thinking, am I over reacting? Everyone seems to think that me voting him for this reason is the lamest thing ever, so maybe I am. So I thought, what would town do in this situation? Two things came to me:

1.) They would join a bandwagon.
2.) They would say someone is suspicious for bandwagoning.

But he asked a group of people bandwagoning each other if bandwagons were good or bad. I still cannot find town motivation in that. I don't see how asking a theory-based question with an obvious answer will help you get reads on people. However, I can see scum motivation for it. As I said before, scum do not want to connect themselves to other people if they can avoid it. Those two things I said townies would probably do connect people to other people. Asking a couple of fluffy questions is a great way to look active without actually doing anything. Perhaps he's cautious and/or passive? This post seems to suggest otherwise. A cuatious player wouldn't have risked getting accused of AtE and OMGUS imo and nothing about his play suggests that he's passive.

And because I know it'll come up, what about Thesp? Yeah, I still don't like his first post in the game. As of page 4, his questions simply didn't give me the same "vibe" as Leafy's did. Why? I didn't really know. So, I decided to think about it. What made them so different? At first, I thought the difference was that Thesp simply hadn't posted as much, but I don't think this is right anymore. Thesp hates RVS. From what I can tell he doesn't really think much info will come out of it (correct me if I'm wrong), and therefore everything in it was irrelevant and he needed to get people doing something else. I don't believe that Leafy thinks this way because he random voted and claimed that the questions he asked during RVS helped him develop reads. I'm not

completely

sure if this is where my gut read is coming from, but it certainly makes sense in my mind.

Then comes this quote.

Uh... actually, looking at the OP, rule 6 implies that even the mafia members cannot communicate with each other at all. Mod: Can the mafia members talk to each other? If so, how?

I didn't know what bugged me about it as of page 4, but I do now. Ythill summed it up nicely, so I'm just going to quote him.

Most people read the rules during the confirm phase, especially if they are bored and bit-chomping like Leaf was. If they have questions, they ask them then, either by PM or in-thread. Of course, a scum isn't going to read nighttalk rules very carefully at that point, because his role PM contains a more detailed version.

When a townie reads Thesp's question they're going to catch the context and realize that "can" means "could." They're either going to post a joke response or state something bland like "Sorry, I'm not scum." If one of the mafia reads this question, he is more likely to see "can" as "do you have the ability to" because he's being paranoid. If he's worthy of his pinstriped suit, he's going to check back and look at the rules again to remind himself what the public knows about such things, and answer accordingly.

In posting his answer, that scum is probably going to realize something along the lines of "if I show that I don't know this, it suggests I'm town" and a question to the mod is posted as a smokescreen. Later, he says that, if he were scum, he'd have PMed the mod but that begs several questions. Why not, instead, point out that the scum surely were told their powers in their role PMs, unless he thought that might bring unwanted questions about how he knows or why he asked an obvious question? Why PM the mod as scum but not as town? Why that second skim of the rules in reference to Thesp's question?

Potential town motivation in this one? Perhaps. I can see town!Leafy asking it because scum will act differently if they can talk (as he said). I think the above is more likely though for the reasons Ythill provided.

And in the same post we get more fluff.

Also, since I haven't played a game with you before, why do you dislike RVS? Do you fear a hammer vote could randomly be reached or do you just think it's childish?

Theory-based? I think so~

Counts

Fluffy questions:

3

Weak stances:

0

Strong stances:

0

And lo and behold, when I call him out for not having any stances he actually makes a few weak ones.

Counts

Fluffy questions:

3

Weak stances:

3

Strong stances:

0

I'm counting the ones on pman, Anon and Elli as weak stances. The other comments were just comments imo (IIoA). I consider everything about that post null. Town and scum would want to make themselves look less suspicious, and posting a few notes is a good way to try to do that regardless of alignment. It was too early to expect people to have any strong stances, so the fact that he only had weak ones is not suspicious at all. The fact that he only had three and just posted some IIoA and asked a few questions is also fine.

---

So I have to get up and do something. I'm not done yet, but I think this is a good start. Please wait warmly while I work on the rest.

[Kitten4u]

Okay, so the rest of my wall is going to have to wait until tomorrow. Sorry. I'll adress quick stuff while I'm here.

I didn't say anything along those lines - that's a strawman.

Then I'm confused. You asked why I didn't ask more questions. I said I only ask questions that need to be asked. You said that answer was not satisfactory.

I get the feeling this is you not liking my playstyle, which isn't a problem.

The only other person I would be comfortable with lynching atm is Elli. I have mild suspicion of Thesp, Sotty and pman, but I'm not really comfortable with lynching them and I'm not convinced that they are scum yet.

I agree with pman about Elli's reaction to my claim.

I'll get to responding to CTD tomorrow.

[Kitten4u]

You seem very serious and intent on explaining yourself but to those of us who understood you the first time, the case still doesn't add up to much.

This is what I get frustrated about. If I'm right this'll be the third game in a row where I was right, but no one listened to me. It's by far my biggest weakness in Mafia.

Anyway... explicitly yes or no, do you think shameless bandwagoning is a scumtell?

If it's truely shameless (like it is in Elli's case) yes. I see it as going with the flow and trying to get anyone but them and their buddy(s) lynched.

That is, when she is attacked, she doesn't defend herself so much as attack her attacker. It's this sense of "calling me scummy is a scumtell".

You don't believe Leafy does this too?

Is this what you call "Weak stances", by any chance? Because I don't think I've ever seen a stance weaker than this one. Add this to the fact that you're apparently agreeing with someone you think is scum (pman) and voting me over something you've said is "fine" (post 258), you're still by far the scummiest player here.

Yes, my staces on Thesp, Sotty and pman are weak. Two, did you read my wall at all? Because I said the content in one post was null, not that you were fine. And whether pman's comment was made by town or scum I would agree with it. It's a good comment.

Another caveat. I suppose this is insurance if I end up dying before you - "Oh, I wasn't sure he was scum". For someone who's accused me of having weak stances, you don't even seem committed to your vote. You keep putting in reasons why you might be wrong, and yet you're still voting me anyway. If you actually thought I was scum, you'd have nothing to fear from me dying.

No. Everyone keeps saying that I'm using bad logic and pushing a bad case, so I wanted them to point out where I used bad logic (you're welcome to do this too btw).

Allows Kitten to avoid committing again...

Gut reads are really hard to pinpoint. That's all I can really say on that.

"I didn't think I could get away with attacking Leafsnail for this, but now that a good player has done it I have no problem buddying with him"

Are you reading my posts? Because I had said that it struck me as disengenuous, but I didn't explan why. I didn't know why. It was just a vibe, but Ythill explained it fine. I didn't feel the need to repeat him.

Christ, I'd forget who you were suspicious of if you didn't have your vote on me.

Now this

is

an issue with my thought process at the very least. In my opinion you can't just look for scum tells. If that worked town would never get lynched. In my opinion you have to get into the other person's head and figure out

why

they're doing what they're doing. This means I look at people and I ask "what is the town motivation for doing this" and "what is the scum motivation for doing this." Once I figure that out I pick which one is more likely.

Once again, that wall wasn't jut a case; it was an explanation of how I think so people could point out where I'm using craplogic because I wasn't understanding how I was using craplogic at all.

I thought I was scum? If I'm scum, why aren't you happy with lynching me? Perhaps it would make you look very bad when I flip town?

Read the post again. Note the words "other person." I had already said you were scum and you told me to tell you who else I thought was scum, so I did.

And if you want Elli lynched, why don't you put your vote where your mouth is?

I've only got one vote dood.

The one on Ellibereth seems to be purely self defensive, as he seems like the only person other than yourself who may be lynched.

Nevermind the fact that he's the only other person I've been poking at all game. If only he would argue with me like you do.

Your other three stances (Thesp, sotty, pman) are so ridiculously weak and vague that they might as well not be there at all.

I only brought them up because you asked me to.

---

So, before I continue, Oman, are you sure he doesn't defend by attacking his attacker? Because he didn't point out a bit of craplogic in that post like I asked people to.

And continuing. Elli is terrible. What if I had been a town power role? You would have just outed me when you didn't even think I was scum! I'll agree with Oman that this looks like rolefishing. I still like my Leafy vote, but this is the closest I've come to wanting to switch to someone else.

using weak reasoning against Leaf

Can you point out exactly what's bad about what I'm saying about Leafy?

applying double standards

Can you point these out?

inconsistent behavior

Can you point this out too?

using tunnelvision as an excuse for your scummy actions

Actually, I said playstyle, but I guess it's the same idea. Let me attempt ot explain my playstyle. Maybe this will clear things up a bit.

I argue. That is how I scumhunt. I'm not the kind to poke, prod or ask quesetions. I simply latch onto something I consider scummy and I argue with that person until they convince me they are not scum or until something worse pops up (in which case I will either argue with that person only, or both people depending on the situation). This often makes me almost completley ignore everything else. I'm generally aware of what's going on (I can think of only one game where my tunnel vision was bad enough that I totally forgot about everyone else), but I prefer to just watch it. I'll ask questions if I have them, and if I find someone else I think is very scummy I'll normally state that they are in hopes of them asking "why am I scummy" so I can argue with them too. Any arguments I get into with people I think are nuetral or town is generally either me trying to prove my innocence or me trying to convince them that I'm right and they should vote for whoever I'm voting.

Sadly, Elli doesn't really comment on anything I say so it's extremely hard to argue with him. I'm glad Leafy is the argumentative type because I'd be at a loss of what to do if he wasn't.

Anyway, the other things I really can't argue with.

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And with all that said, no one was really commenting on my wall like I was hoping they would. I also noticed I was doing a lot of repeating myself (only this time I included more thought process), so I have a question for everyone. Are you guys eagar to see the rest of it? I imagine it'll still have a lot of repeating myself. It took a lot of time, thought and effort for me to get that up, so if no one's really interested in seeing it I'd rather not waste my time and energy in putting it up.

[Kitten4u]

And this is the problem in a nutshell. As far as I can tell, you picked 3 other players pretty much at random in order to pretend not to be tunnelvisioned.

Nevermind the fact that I totally admit to being tunnelvisioned. It's how I roll. >_>b

Exactly what I mean. You noticed it but didn't attack me because you didn't think you could get away with it.

Did you read the post I linked? Because in that post I do use that as part of my attack.

[Kitten4u]

In which case, why have you put out 4 other "suspects"?

Can't help it if I find a couple of other people mildly suspicious. Or in the case of Elli very suspicious. Again, I wouldn't have even brought it up if you didn't ask me to.

I'll be charitable and call this a mistake rather than a lie. You said literally nothing beyond "That post bothers me but I'm not going to say why and I'm not going to make any specific accusations over it"

I said it struck me as disengenuous. Being disengenuous is obviously a bad thing.

[Kitten4u]

Sorry, been busy. I'll have a real post up tomorrow.

[Kitten4u]

Still busy. Quick post incoming.

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This is my problem. You only did it in order to try and get some suspicion off you

I was just answering your question.

But it applies no pressure and tells you nothing to vaguely say something is "disingenuous". You made no specific allegations and it didn't contribute to your weak attack at all.

So you admit it was an attack.

I never said that he didn't. but you're doing it again. I'm saying you're scummy for this, and you're trying to pass it off to someone else.

What makes me worse than Leaf then?

Firstly there is the General CTD issue, not any specific quotes, but Kitten was very light on him, until he started fighting back he went from just "weird" to "scummy".

They're synonymous in Kitten Language.

I have a hard time not skimming walls when replying. I read them once, but replying point-by-point is a drain on town resources.

That's fine. I was more interested in hearing from the people that said I was using craplogic.

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Wicked's case is okay imo. It addresses some of the things I was worried about when I said that I had a weak scum read on pman (most notably the Leaf being an "innocent townie" stuff), but I think that he's over reacting on some thing (the early Elli vote comes to mind, it was early in the day so no votes are really throw away at that point imo).

I still prefer a Leaf lynch at this point, but I'm not against an Elli one.

I have to go now, but I *might* be back on later.

[Kitten4u]

Sadly, due to some personal problems, I won't be able to continue playing. I'm really sorry everyone.

I've asked my friend to replace in for me, so hopefully there won't be much dead time because I can no longer play.

Mod, requesting a replacement. I've asked Moriarty147 to replace for me, so you should be getting a PM from him soon.