Mini 903 - Owarai TV (Game over... who won?)

[VP Baltar]

Can I pre-vote VP since he's always scum?

-___________- <---Dis is what I think of you.

[VP Baltar]

Vote:Starbuck

[VP Baltar]

What's your experience with mafia HellInFire666?

[VP Baltar]

So in your experience, do you think it is likely that all of the scum (and possibly an SK) are going to quickly pile on to Starbuck for a speed lynch?

[VP Baltar]

No, it isn't likely, at least not a quick pile in the way I said it in my post, because that would give them away. But it is my experience that scum will look for an oppurtunity if one is given, and I don't think we need to start a bandwagon with no evidence. So yes, I overstated, and a quick pile wouldn't happen, but I just don't want to see a bandwagon started this early in the game with little reasoning.

Why though? what does a bandwagon hurt? do you feel there is no information to be gained from a bandwagon?

What do you feel are the chances of a dangerous bandwagon actually forming (going further then 3 votes) on Starbucks during a random stage?

Thanks for repeating what I already asked.

Actually I tend to agree with Dev here.

Target: Why the (&%# am I being wagoned? I didn't even do anything! (which is true)
Attacker X: Clearly (s)he's flailing, "vote"
Attacker Y: Yeah, why would a townie be mad at 3 votes? "Vote"

Story ended with a townie lynched.

It's basically like a random wagon that doesn't really provide as much information about the rest of the town as actually scumhunting.

I disagree with both of you. You have to learn to read reactions. I've started wagons on people I think could be town just to nab scum jumping on later. I'm not saying it's easy to do or should be practiced if you're not confident in your ability to read people sluffing onto a wagon, but I do think it's a valid tactic for finding scum.

[VP Baltar]

Either way, that brings up something that I was trying to discern from Anon. I recognize it as an advanced tactic; but to conciously wagon when you have 3? games under your belt seems risky at best. I wanted to know how comfortable he was with it. Reading a game over and being in it and dealing with the reactions are completely different. Just like when you replace into a game and read the people that have died and flipped townie; you tend to wonder why they got lynched in the first place cause you know that they're town already.

Yeah, I should have been more clear. I think i was just arguing theory a bit there. I definitely don't think that was what Anon was doing or anything he would be experienced enough to pull off effectively.

Starbuck, what do you think your chances of being lynched today stand at?

[VP Baltar]

Happy Birthday Reckoner!

Now stop interrupting me.

[VP Baltar]

Let's not lynch Starbuck, k?

Are you content with keeping your vote on her?

lulz

[VP Baltar]

I'm laughing. You should check who reck is voting before making accusations.

[VP Baltar]

Hey, 6. malpascp / 8. The Inquisition / 10. dramonic , what's going on?

What are your thoughts on the Starbuck wagon? Do you plan on voting someone any time soon?

[VP Baltar]

VP Baltar---Thoughts on any of the players in the game, please.

I have the in-laws visiting me until Thursday, so I will try my best to give you some concrete thoughts on who is scum soon but I can't make any guarantees until after they head out of town. If I can scrape together some time before then, I'll give you something.

[VP Baltar]

Just an update, I'm going to try and post something here today, but I have another game in intense lylo at the moment so I can't make guarantees. If I don't manage something significant today, it will be tomorrow. Anything after that and you can feel free to wagon the hell out of me for lurking.

[VP Baltar]

Catch up post here...apologize if there is some repetition in there, but this is as much for me as it is for you:

First off, Amished, do you have any previous experience playing with Starbuck?

@Starbuck: the early part of your post is what makes me wonder. We got out of the RVS rather quickly. It doesn't really matter when somebody has their first post, if they're following along they'll know the tone of the game.

While I can see how this doesn't necessarily make logical sense, I'm failing to see what Starbuck's scum motivation was here. Unless you are suggesting that Rav and Starbuck are scum buddies, which I don't think there is any real evidence for, I don't understand the point of this questioning.

Ok I'll explain in more detail my vote now.
It was random in the way that I didn't find Starbuck scummy
It was serious because I wanted to see the reponses it would get.

And what did you learn from those responses, particularly Amished since he focused on it mostly?

--Raskol's list of questions is a bit empty, but a good enough start I suppose (at least as could be expected at this point in the game).

My experience with Anon is more relevant as of this moment because he's playing very differently than I saw him play as scum.

link?

--edit, got it!

probly Hellnfire & chauch.
Hell because I don't think Anon's posts were confusing and his unvote seems fishythefish to me.

Chauch because her questions seem fake.

I actually strongly agree with both of these, particularly HellnFire. He seems very apologetic and eager to appease players when he is questioned.

Unvote, Vote: HellnFire666

Raivann---based purely on the information I have now, I would say Hell, followed by VP Baltar

Seriously? Any particular reason?

So far, he's [Raivann] basically done nothing original (bandwagon vote and the Raskol question). I think he's just copying people that he knows are protown.

He's more guilty of that than chauchau?

1. An over-reliance on RVS as a discussion focal point. This comes across as scummy to me because it's something that's read neutral. In other words, it's a way to avoid being read by others because discussion about something so innocuous is difficult to draw conclusions from. But I'm going to do it anyway because I think Amished knows exactly what he's doing.

The game has to move forward from something though, correct? What would you say Amished should have been talking about ?

2. The attack on Raivann rings false to me.

I do agree with this, however. Amished has been clinging to this hard and I don't see much scum motivation from Raiv to act the way he did at that point.

HnF666 is eligible for a prod come Sunday. Is 5 days of inactivity too long before I issue prods?

God yes. 72 hour rule plz. Games already take long enough on MS. Someone who doesn't post in 5 days should be replaced imo.

Dev's point would work if Amish was a SK right?

Let's not go down this road at this point, k?

Also, where the ef did Dram go?

Toward prod/replacement land I hope.

---

tl,dr

Hell needs to put up something very impressive or be lynched. He's overly concerned with his image, imo, which is a pretty good noob scumtell.

[VP Baltar]

@VP: Not necessarily, but chau has been lining up with my viewpoint more than Raiv.

So it's fine to coast on the work of others as long as the person coasting agrees with you?

As far as Starbuck, I don't mind you questioning her really, I'm just saying that the matter seems a bit trivial and not really moving toward determining alignment.

[VP Baltar]

Top suspect? On page 7? When most people haven't shown up yet?

Blagh. I don't like doing this. I'll say I think one of either The Inquisition or VPB is scum, though.

Based on what?

I'm here btw. And drunk. So stick that in ya pooper.

[VP Baltar]

lol, I <3 Amished.

He knows what's up.

Also, Hell is noob scum like you wouldn't believe.

[VP Baltar]

1) I get terrible flashbacks of MMan claiming with ~halfway to a lynch. (HnF was at 4, xRx's unvote makes it

Bingo! Town NEVER claim that early because they wouldn't feel that much pressure from being at L-3.

HnF is one caught scum. Reckoner possibly a second,but he always looks like scum. I'll figure out a third if necessary later.

[VP Baltar]

*commences drinking before noon*

[VP Baltar]

I'm all too aware of it, unfortunately. You should fix that so I can actually read your alignment sometimes.

[VP Baltar]

It's caught scum every time I've seen it. I've even done it as scum before.

[VP Baltar]

HellnFire--How did you discover mafia and this site?

[VP Baltar]

It's caught scum every time I've seen it. I've even done it as scum before.

Done what, exactly?

Claimed early under pressure.


Nobody hammer Hell until he comes in here and answers my question.

[VP Baltar]

Defending my past actions wouldn't have changed your mind

I don't understand why not. Heck, I hadn't even really explained the posts I was attacking you about yet. You may have had very logical explanations for them for all I know.

Next questions: When you play RL mafia do you always claim very early? What was the other site you were referred to? Did you play any games there?

[VP Baltar]

Happy Birthday, HellnFire!

[VP Baltar]

What's the rush there Raivann? I'm waiting on some answers from HellnFire you know.

[VP Baltar]

So you didn't bother to check what the votecount was at before you voted Raivann?

[VP Baltar]

Mod: please prod Starbuck and The Inquisition if you haven't already done so.

[VP Baltar]

My previous suspicion is unrelated to your behaviour with Hell. It's more about your interaction with the Starbuck wagon that rubbed/scraped me the wrong way.

Really? Because you seemed to be implying fairly directly that he is scum who was voting his partner for a bus.

If that's not what you were doing, then what was the need to put your comment immediately after his vote? Also, how likely do you think it is for Raivann to be scum with Hell when he did state his suspicion well before the wagon took off?

[VP Baltar]

Which of them is your preferred lynch for today?

[VP Baltar]

Which of them is your preferred lynch for today?

[VP Baltar]

Reck, why do you want to hammer? I thought you said you were leaning newbtown as well?

Yeah, that doesn't make any sense to me. You were implying you didn't want to vote him at all previously as far as I could tell. Considering he hasn't even posted, I don't see how this could have changed.

[VP Baltar]

Happy Birthday, Amished!

So, HellnFire is a CoCo alt? (I've always wondered why everyone else seems to know everyone's alts and I do not)

If so, then he does indeed have a precedent for this kind of thing and I'd be ready to unvote for now.

If that was simply cited as an example, then I think that's much more the exception than the rule. There are plenty of games out there where scum have claimed their roles unprompted and early in an effort to save their hides.

[VP Baltar]

Well, in fairness, I don't think CoCo was just some stupid noob doing it because he didn't know any better. As far as I can tell from his postings on this site, he seems to like to live up to the chaotic philosophy of his avatar. I think this is evidenced by the fact that no one was voting him when he claimed...which is substantially different to a player having some votes on them and feeling pressured to claim.

[VP Baltar]

(for example, someone used the phrase "early reports indicate that x and y are town" in the RVS, and CoCo spent multiple pages challenging the person to produce the reports. In complete seriousness. ).

lulz

Overall I don't really see why someone of either faction would benefit from claiming early: it seems to me that it's just a newb tell, if anything.

Well, it's not so much that I see any actual scum benefit from him doing it as I think he felt pressure that wasn't necessarily there and really did think it would refute the arguments against him. As you said, it's a noob tell (which does not speak to actual alignment).

I do hear what you are saying though Raskol and that is actually the reason I'm trying to question him. I'd like to know what his experience is and possibly read some of his previous games.

Him falling off the face of the earth doesn't exactly make me feel better about him though.

[VP Baltar]

I don't think there is anything wrong with cc.com's questioning. I'd like dramonic to explain why he has strong town reads on the pair.

[VP Baltar]

I have no substance either?

[VP Baltar]

I think there is plenty to gain by hearing from people like The Inquisition, who has said squat.

Also, I still want to hear from Hell. There is no reason that if I suddenly feel he is town I couldn't change my mind...but that requires him to answer questions and be here.

[VP Baltar]

I will post content tomorrow, I promise.

Deadline past and I'm tired of waiting. Lynch this scum now town.

[VP Baltar]

Seriously? Plenty of scum promise content and fail to provide because they have to do much more work in scraping together a fake case.

I really think you are simply equating noobish behaviour to noob-town, when they are actually not alignment tells at all.

[VP Baltar]

If they're not alignment tells, then they can't be scumtells either.

Fair enough, but I did explain why I thought claiming early was more likely to come from scum than it is from town. Your counter argument is that it's noobish behaviour...which doesn't really refute my point.

I don't see any motive for a scum player to promise content knowing they have nothing to deliver

It's called stalling for time.

In the meantime, I think there are things worth pursuing wrt Inquisition and Devestation

I'm not saying those players shouldn't be pressured, but I'm fairly certain that Hell is scum here. You're welcome to do as you please of course.

Things that I think are much stronger indicators of actual scum than anything Hellfire's done.

I don't agree that anything being pushed on either of those fronts is legitimately stronger of a scum indicator than claiming way early is.

^reads like scum trying to setup a townie

My thoughts exactly. This short sentence has somehow convinced me Raivann is town (it reads like it's coming from a townie perspective). It also confirms what I thought about Devestation. Opportunistic "case" on me, that is riddled with holes.

This is probably about one of the worst reasons for calling someone town I have ever seen. Basically equates to you think he's town because he is mildly opposed to Devestation's points about you.

[VP Baltar]

The quote you cite is partially what I'm referring to, but perhaps it's not as elaborate as I thought it was.

This is the heart of it:

I think he felt pressure that wasn't necessarily there and really did think it would refute the arguments against him.

To expound on this, scum mentality in the game of mafia (particularly coming from less experienced players) is one of a "guilty conscience". Because scum players know they are inherently guilty, they tend to feel that comments pointed toward them are more aggressive than they really are.

I think this point is evidenced in the fact that pretty much the entirity of the Hell attack at first is summed up here:

probly Hellnfire & chauch.
Hell because I don't think Anon's posts were confusing and his unvote seems fishythefish to me.

Chauch because her questions seem fake.

I actually strongly agree with both of these, particularly HellnFire. He seems very apologetic and eager to appease players when he is questioned.

Unvote, Vote: HellnFire666

Plus your earlier vote.

Then Reckoner voted with no real reason and WHAMO! Hell claims. There was almost no real pressure on him to be worried about. He later says that he felt that was the only way to answer people's accusations against him...which I think is completely silly since it answers nothing (though I guess in some regard it has worked since people started to back off after that).

I think a much more common response from townies in that situation (particularly less experienced players) is to either a) lash out angerly at their attackers or b) just resign themselves to the lynch and shut down.

Claiming early is much more likely to come from scum, however, because it is seen as an easy out that will deter people from the lynch.

@VPB:

I don't know how to explain it - basically, I think that train of thought is pro-town and wouldn't come from scum.

Not really a selling point for me, sorry.

[VP Baltar]

Not me.

[VP Baltar]

What, who the hell is a double voter? If you're town, you had best claim it immediately.

[VP Baltar]

Care to explain why you didn't say anything yesterday, Reck?

Raskol, any comments now that you've seen the flip?


Right now, I think Amished and I are about as close to confirmed as a player can get without a cop investigation.

[VP Baltar]

Amished is the only one from memory who was completely down for the Hell lynch from the start. He's town.

What was the previous problem with your roll Reckoner? Also, what did you think the benefit of keeping it hidden was?

I need to do some rereading before I decide who is Hell's most likely buddy.

[VP Baltar]

Now that hell has effectively flipped scum, I say we can lynch Rai.

No, I think his suspicion of Hell was pretty consistent when I went back and iso'ed him. I'm certainly not putting him in my strong town read category at this moment, but based on yesterday's events alone I don't think he's even close to the best lynch choice.

I do have a question though Raivann, why so sparse with your vote early on yesterday? After you unvoted starbuck it seemed like it took you awhile to find someone worth voting and I don't really know why.

Also on a reread I noticed that maybe I shouldn't have Amished so far into my town category. Don't get me wrong, I think he still looks the most likely to be town of anyone apart from myself, but looking back I do get a vague sense that he was following me a bit later in the day when it came to actually pushing the lynch through. It's not really anything worth being worried about at this point, but if Amished were scum I would definitely expect to try and buddy up to me.

Well, originally, the mod said I could privately PM him and vote. So I thought it'd be worth it. However, he revealed after I voted that after discussion with others, I have to double vote in-thread. So since I can't use my power without revealing myself anyway, I figured I can claim now. Plus, I didn't have TIME to claim before the day ended last time.

Ok, but what is the real point in keeping it hidden? What benefit does the town receive from that?

Pg. 8, after the vanilla claim xRx immediately unvoted. I knew that was weird for a reason; unvoting for any claim from scum (especially an unconvincing claim) is a huge scumtell in my book. There really was no way that the wagon was gonna be derailed so I could see him hammering to look better/"take the edge off" (so to speak) even being a double voter.

I can largely agree with this.

I'm a Town Doublevoter. I mean, I don't know how I can convince you, especially since I used my double vote to hammer my scum buddy. If you expect me to buy you and VPB as nearly-confirmed-town, you have to think that my two votes (equivalent of you and VPB's two votes) on a scumbuddy have the same effect. Had I just voted him, okay... but throwing on a second vote?

Eh, perhaps. However, you may have felt pressured to claim today because it was obvious that you were the likely double voter after the two different Hell wagons were compared (he got to L-1 before didn't he?). Yesterday you could have hammered thinking that you would be able to hide out among the other people on the wagon, but then realized over night that a PoE would fish you out quickly. Claiming straight up before you were found out would likely be the only route that a hypo-scum double voter would have at saving face.

Because I unvoted after the VT claim? Yeah, sorry for thinking "Hey, if I was scum, I'd fakeclaim a powerrole to try and draw out a counterclaim instead of just bending over and taking it up the ass with a VT claim!". I cannot stress enough that I obviously found him scummy enough to use my doublevote on him by the end of it.

As Amished rightly points out though, you essentially wasted your power if you are town because you outted yourself. The only real function of a pro-town double voter is to give town one extra mislynch. Essentially you could win the game for town in a 1-1 situation against scum, so why the hell would you feel compelled to out yourself on Day 1 on a lynch that was pretty much going to happen anyhow once the game got to deadline?

That's actually partially serious. My meta of Starbuck tells me she is scum this game, and I'd like to not really reveal what that meta is because then she'll play against it. Let's just say... there's a pretty blatant difference between town-Starbuck in every other game I've played with her and scum-Starbuck.

If you want to figure out what that meta is for yourself, read some of her games as town.

Don't expect others to fill in the blank for you. Also, why the heck are you voting when you have already claimed double voter. I suggest you just back off lest someone eventually gets lynched by "accident" because someone forgot that you have two votes.

Because besides this game, I've never seen an early claim end up with a scum lynch.

Well this is a lie. I can't talk about which game because it's ongoing, but I'm sure you can think about it and recall.

Also, I'm highly skeptical about the mod changing anything midgame; especially in a mini where if you're in the queue for as long as it normally takes to get a game to mod; you have plenty of time to decide what each special role does, especially considering the invite to play PM that I got from Kise talking about natural scumhunters rather than a lot of power roles or anything to follow.

I'm not sure what to think of this either, but this is Kise's first time modding, right? I don't think a mod should change anything midstream like that unless it's in danger of breaking the game (and even then is questionable because it should have been thought of before), but I could see a newer mod changing his mind at the last second. I dunno. What would be the scum motivation for Reckoner to claim his ability was changed?

Amished and Baltar, since we talking about this, what do you think of Hell's early vote on me?

Not a lot? What am I supposed to think? He certainly seemed apologetic about the vote and willing to remove it at the slightest call. This either means 1) He was tentative scum voting a townie and didn't want to see too forceful, or 2) he was tentative scum making a weak attempt to distance a buddy.

Also, you're general opposition to the Hell wagon even though the tell I pointed out was a "logical explanation" doesn't sit well in my book.

I guess my thinking on this is that if believing a player in the game forces you to conclude that the mod of the game is a bastard when it's a normal game, then it's more likely that the player is lying. AFAIC, that means lynch Reck.

Hmm, you make a decent point. I need to think about this for a bit and see if I think it's likely Kise would change something like this. Like I said above to Amished, my only hang up is figuring out WHY Reck would lie about it. Maybe in an attempt to make his story about not claiming earlier more believable? not sure.


Ok, now that I've done some more thinking and reading, my top scum reads at the moment are Reckoner, Anon, and chauchaudotcom. Lynch preference will probably take some more thought/hearing responses.

[VP Baltar]

@xReckonerx- can you paraphrase what the problem with the wording was in your PM that made it unclear or implied you had a different ability?

[VP Baltar]

@dev-it's not your browser, it's the site. Been shit for the past couple of days.

About Kise: Yeah, but switching it at the last second and halfway through the day are two very different things. Especially a relatively important day ability like double voting; it's something that you would really go over; both on your own and with a reviewer. I know I pretty much followed everything that Vi said when she reviewed my mini, and I went over WinCons, setting up the mentor ability (we came up with that before ViPod), pretty much everything.

Yeah, and I'm trying to think to myself what the rationale for such a move might be, but I'm really not coming to anything. Do you know for certain that Kise had the game reviewed though? It's not mandatory.

I think xRx was saying that he thought he could PM another vote in private that wouldn't show up or something, instead of his vote counting twice like apparently it works now.

Yeah, I understand what he is explaining as the differences, but he was making it sound like there was some word choices in his PM that confused either him, the mod or both when it came time to play the game. I think it'd be a bit fucked up to change a role mechanic midstream like that, especially when it essentially prevented a lynch from happening.

In fact,

Vote: xReckonerx

. Better have some good answers to my questions in the previous post or you're pretty much finished.

[VP Baltar]

Post 359. I highly doubt that any of those questions would get you modkilled.

[VP Baltar]

Unvote, Vote: Anon

Still expecting those answers Reck.

[VP Baltar]

Baltar, do you really think Hell's first case on someone was on a scumbuddy? Anyways, what do you think of the way he reacted when people started saying that his vote on me was terrible? Do you think this reaction is more likely to come from a scumbuddy or from a scumbag backtracking?

I'll give it a close look later today when I have some time. My initial response to it just in an iso of you and him isn't that you're town just because he made a limp-wristed attack on you.

I feel like this "Amished & Baltar VS Reck" is through and through a bunch of town bickering.

Wow, thanks for the in depth analysis. How about commenting on who is scum and why. Frankly, I don't even understand why you think Rai should be lynched, nor do I know who else you suspect. Right now, your general hanging out in the background reminds me of your scum play dram.

[VP Baltar]

I don't buy you and VP as nearly confirmed because either one of you could easily have been bussing. I'm not saying that you were, but it's a possibility that is still there.

No offense, but you really must not know me very well if you think I'd play that poorly as scum. Given how inactive lots of people were yesterday and the amount of opposition to the Hell wagon, it would not have been difficult to get a mislynch if I was scum. Bussing in that situation would have been very suboptimal play.

I am very, very wary of double voter claims because, as Amished already said, I was one in Tar's Legacy of the Ancients game and was scum. I have also seen multi-vote roles flip more often as scum than as town in games I've played on the View Askew board.

I'm going to put this argument to bed now since it's pretty bad. Double voter can be either alignment. I've seen it more often as town than scum, so at best it's null and I don't think the likelihood of it being either alignment should be a consideration for anyone.

If you want examples of town double voter, you can look at Elmo in Dark Goma Mafia or ZEEnon and charlatan in Cowboy Bebop Mafia.

[VP Baltar]

VP, that's why that statement was directed at Amished and not you.

Oh? Guess you forgot to delete my name from it then.

And on the double voter issue, that's why I linked the double voter Wiki entry right below that and said I needed some more time to think on it.

The tone of your post was essentially "double voters are more likely to be scum than town". I was pointing out specific game examples where that was not the case (since you asked for them).

Explanations for me and Anon?

Anon was fighting the Hell wagon pretty hard when it came around.

And actually I'm just isoing you for the first time today. My gut is right on you I think.

Unvote, Vote: chauchaudotcom

You random vote hell and leave your vote there for a very long time. You ask quite a few questions but never arrive at a conclusion as to who is scum (at least one that would prompt you to change your vote). Then once a good wagon starts forming on hell you are quick to unvote because:

I know you guys are pressuring but I'd rather not have something happen while I'm away. Will catch up with everything when I return.

Well that's pretty much a BS reason to get off your random vote. Not only that, but you don't vote anyone else or really seem to have any serious suspects at that point.

Then you come back after Hell's weaksauce claim and say:

I felt pressure, I really didn't have any other way to defend myself, so I claimed my role.

I believe we got a confession my friends.

So you believe that he confessed to being scum, but you don't vote him? sounds more than a little fishy.

Two posts after that, you vote Raivann for a bullshit reason that turns out to be wrong anyway...wtf? CONFESSED SCUM YOU SAID.



You make it a point to avoid a wagon while putting up a show about thinking he's scum. I'm quite certain you're hell's buddy. More votes on this wagon please.

[VP Baltar]

Why would I take my vote off someone who was acting suspicious at the time?

Perhaps because you weren't actually paying him any attention while you were at least questioning some other players (starbuck and dram iirc).

You didn't seem to have much of a care about hell at all actually.

I actually wondered when someone would question me about this. That was my fault entirely. This is my first non-newbie games so I'm used to it being five to lynch. I didn't realize how stupid I sounded until I came back and saw that it was 7 to lynch not 5.

Meh, I don't know if I buy this.

Because you were waiting for him to answer questions. Were you not the one who requested us not to hammer until you were done?

But you never returned to it is my point. There were people bailing off there for awhile and you would have had a chance to vote without putting him in danger of a lynch if you had wanted. Furthermore, you weren't even questioning him about anything or trying to convince people he was a good lynch. In fact, once the heat got turned up on Hell, you didn't have much really relevant to say at all.

Because it was the second wagon Rai jumped on in the game, with zero explanation. Hence, I voted him. But after ward Rai defended himself saying he had prior suspicions of hell before and I went back and found out that I was wrong, which explains my unvote.

Poorly researched counter wagon attempt is poorly researched.

Go go go go go. VPB vs cc.com is going to be epic.

I doubt it. I'm pretty sure about this right now, so we should just lynch him and be done with it.

[VP Baltar]

I believe I was accused of 'echoing'. So was there a need to repeat what others were already asking? Hell was suspicious enough that I felt alright to leave my vote on him, but I was still pursuing other suspects, such as star an dram. But neither produced anything I felt solid enough to change my vote

I don't think hell was even being questioned that much over that early period. Raskol made a brief accuasation and voted. Raivann said he was likely scum (with you) and never voted, and I made a brief accusation and voted. There wasn't a lot of straight up questioning of hell happening, so I think there was plenty of room for you to work stuff in there.

Also, the above quote from you seems to imply that you were worried about being seen as echoing if you had the same suspects as other people. I don't like self-awareness of appearence (hint:that is what first turned me on to hell).

I wasn't as confident as you and Amished were about Hell being scum and as everyone was still waiting for Hell's reply I didn't feel the need to jump on the bandwagon (close to lynch or no) until he explained himself. At that point I was looking more at dram and dev's case against rec.

Why though? You said in thread that he essentially claimed scum...those are pretty confident words if you ask me. Why would you say that if you weren't sure about him being scum? Why was it more important to look at dram and dev's cases than to solidify your feelings on hell?

Not a wagon attempt, just a poorly researched vote.

Any vote you think is for legitimately scummy reasons at the time is a wagon attempt.

Ah how disappointed you'll be.

Where have I heard something like this before? OH, right:

This seems like it is meant to provoke me into saying something wrong so you can lynch a townie

Wait, Raivann's alive?

Unvote wtf how did i forget

too many good targets.

I really don't think Raivann is scum here. What actual reasoning do you have for drawing this conclusion?

@VP: This is not a "last few days issue", my browsers disliking this site has been ongoing since about June last year.

ah. Time for a new browser perhaps? I use Google Chrome and it works quite well for the site, imo.

[VP Baltar]

Yes I would like to hear these cases as well. I hope Amished feels better soon, I'd like his opinion on cc.com.

[VP Baltar]

And yet there is no real case being made, dram. Raviann in particular does not look like scum given Hell's flip. I have pointed this out, so if you expect me to believe he's scum you're going to have to, you know, actually make a case.

[VP Baltar]

How is lynching on meta a better idea than lynching someone with clear connections to a dead scum?

[VP Baltar]

So are you reading anything I've said about cc.com or just encouraging that debate while not actually paying attention?

[VP Baltar]

Yeah, I hear ya. I've been playing with a lot of the same people lately.

[VP Baltar]

I like your post Anon. Why vote cc.com if you find dramonic and star scummier though?

[VP Baltar]

think that's L-1 just so everyone knows. I'd still like more discussion before we lynch. Also, see my sig for V/LA, so don't do anything too foolish while I'm gone.

[VP Baltar]

Only skimming quickly, but I don't really believe the claim (another early claim at that!). Did you breadcrumb Chau? Why did you choose The Inquisition when he wasn't even on your scumlist at all yesterday? Do you know your sanity?

[VP Baltar]

Will be reading up today, but

Unvote, Vote: Devestation

. See if I care.

[VP Baltar]

Catching up. I'm still fucking burnt from getting about 8 hours of sleep total in the past three days, but I'll try my best.

---

Dev - For trying to shift bandwagon attention to Rec day one, with a rather bad case.

Can you elaborate on this in context? I'm a bit lazy right now and I want to hear how you are reading that situation. I assume you are talking about him shifting away from the hell wagon, so where was the hell wagon at during that stage and why do you feel he was shifting away with his case (which iso post is that btw)?

If that puts chauchau at L-1, I say we hammer.

This is so damn scummy. I really wouldn't mind lynching reckoner.

And then we have the cc.com claim, which I can sort of understand why he did it since Reck implied he was at L-1 just before that, but I still don't like it and I honestly don't think there is a cop in this game.

I really don't understand how providing both sides of the situation is fencesitting.

when you never actually deliver an opinion, this is the quintessential definition of fence sitting.

In my defense I thought Rec voted me on page 17 because his post on page 18 made it sound like it. MS kept timing out on me so I just used the quick reply to post because I was nervous since Rec was calling for a quick hammer.

fair enough

I'm not voting Rai because I don't have a solid case in any form on him. I am almost certain that he is scum, but I cant just say "he's scum, vote him!"

ah, now I understand the dram wagon. This seems like a good reason to lynch him.

Strongly against a xRx, Amished, CC.C lynch
I'm also strongly against a VPB lynch, but after Goma I dont trust myself on that one :p

Implying you think I'm more likely to be scum than Reck? That makes me chuckle. Also, I'd think you'd have an insight into my scum play since we've been scum buddies before. Why do you think I would buss a buddy after I basically helped to save you from a day 1 lynch when we played together?

I feel like everyone is always in favor of a Raivann lynch.

The fact that people keep bringing it up and never provide a case makes me very confident in my town read of Raivann.

Go on, lynch me. See if I care.

wtf. seriously, why did you say this? You only have one freaking vote on you. Well two now and I'm quite happy with it.

I got a case for ya... right here, in my pants

I think she meant a substantial case. Zing!

[VP Baltar]

Sorry, generally shocking day and I was less than sane when I came on the PC, not helped by seeing various people changing their votes to me >_<

I got no idea what to make of the cop claim- Chauchau has seemed town to me this game, I can't work out why everyone was suddenly voting for her.

Who are "various people"?

Why do you not have any idea what to make of the cop claim when you had a town read on chauchau? I would think him claiming cop would fit perfectly with a town read.

[VP Baltar]

Anon, I'd like to hear your thoughts on Devestation's recent mental breakdown and general exaggeration of the pressure on him.

[VP Baltar]

Reasons people. Why is it specifically better than a Devlynch?

[VP Baltar]

that's cool. doesn't answer my questions though. feel free when you get a chance.

[VP Baltar]

Last two scum = dram and Dev. cc.com is alternative at this point. Remember this after I'm dead.

[VP Baltar]

I think we're having a disagreement here VP...

I'm guessing it's rooted in general alignment. I'm still waiting on your actual reasoning for finding Raivann scummy or at least a reply to counter my given reasons as to why he's likely town.

My patience with your empty rhetoric is no more than a vibrant pink sheet of crepe paper keeping me from lynching you. I suggest you actually do something to turn around this opinion and soon.

You having two or there people listed as scum suspects for no discernable reason before people I'm actually giving you very good reasons to vote for makes me more than a bit wary.

[VP Baltar]

Chauchau has seemed town to me this game

To me she is just another player in the game, and I had yet to distinguish her as town or mafia.

que?



Hey Raivann, why are you not posting here when I'm pretty sure I've seen you post elsewhere?

[VP Baltar]

VPB, can we lynch dram today? Sexual favors are on the way if you say yes

I'm strongly considering it.

[VP Baltar]

<--waits expectantly on content.

(and congrats on the new computer...not many joys greater than that)

[VP Baltar]

Still waiting on that content Raivann.

What do you mean by "fixed system" Devestation?

Yo, Anon, you have anything to say?

Dram, I expect this Raivann reasoning in your next post or it's time to lynch you. Unless of course this:

1- The bandwagon vote on Starbuck reeked. You dont just vote without reading the whole game first, even in a RVS.
2- Blows up my interactions to try to make them scummy (oh noes, I used an emoticon!)
3- Says he's suspicious of CC.C but votes dev (with a weeeeak case)

is it. In which case we could probably just lynch you now.

[VP Baltar]

Is it wrong that I like Britney Spears' song?

Stop trolling your own thread.

@Starbuck- I like your new avatar! As far as your points on dram, they are a bit so-so, but I'll let him respond to that first. However, if that really is the only time he mentions you day 1, I do find it interesting that he thinks you're scum.

dram, STILLLLLL waiting on your Raivann case. deliver. now.

[VP Baltar]

I agree with Amished that the second part of Starbucks analysis is much better. I'd also vote you dram, so claiming time it is.

[VP Baltar]

I'm ready to hammer. My only last words are that if I'm not around tomorrow, I'm still pretty confident in my suspects and think that's a good place to look.

[VP Baltar]

hopefully

[VP Baltar]

Hmm, well I still think Devestation and Anon are up there as hypo-scum, with the former leading the pack by a long shot, but I suppose I should do some reading before I say anything definitive.

I am quite surprised there was a cop in this game.

I definitely want to hear from some other people before I go all out today. I feel like some people made it a point to drift into the background yesterday.

[VP Baltar]

he didn't have a result from Night 1 unfortunately. He said he investigated The Inquisitor, who died the same night.

[VP Baltar]

@VP: I just saw your concise reasoning for Anon being scum (fought HnF wagon hard) in 384 again. I just reread that whole thing and I got more of a hardfought defense from Raskol. How does Anon compare to Rask in that situation for you?

I read Raskol as being more sincere in his defense. I don't believe a scum buddy would be THAT against lynching a buddy who made such an obvious mistake because he'd be digging his own grave the next day. I think Raskol's a better player than that, but I suppose it's not outside the realm of possibility.

Surely that's not the only reason for your suspicions either, care to explain further?

He's also making it a point to stay in the shadows I feel. He does only have 25 posts after all. Also, unlike starbuck yesterday, his reasons for voting dram were really weak (too sure of hell scum).

@VP: Obviously I missed a bunch on dev since I thought he was dead and confirmed town. I think that your stance on Anon is wrong, but what's your case on dev since you're more sure of him?

Actually, glancing over Anon in iso made me only like his lynch more. Dev's case isn't something that I've put together in XYZ form, but I really did not like his overreaction to no pressure yesterday. He blamed it on RL events, which I can understand, but he also exaggerated the number of people voting him at that time after this, which I think is scummy.

Additionally, dev was quick to get off of the Hell lynch after he voted in exchange for the Reckoner wagon. Kise's final vote count doesn't reflect this, but devestation was not on the scum lynch for no good reason considering he found his "folding" scummy.

His case on Dev will be that he is indecisive, he has not voted at all in this game apart from Reckoner (because he only ever votes if he am 100% dead certain that said person is scum which he rarely is), and his apparent unwillingness to consider anyone except for xRECKONERx

lol. where does this even come from? I've never had a scum bring up new points against themself. Keep going.

[VP Baltar]

Well, my case wouldn't be much beyond that really...just filled in with actual quotes for quick reference.

I really want to hear from everyone else first before I vote. I'm not comfortable with this being the VP and Amished show while everyone lurks to avoid connections.

[VP Baltar]

Vote: Devestation

Look! stuff is happening.

[VP Baltar]

Lord help us.

dramonic is dead Reck. We lynched him yesterday.

[VP Baltar]

C'mon Starbuck, you've played with Reckoner enough to know better than that.

He's most likely town this game. I can read him if you can't. Devestation and Anon are much more likely to be scum.


Speaking of which guys, you have anything to say?

Anxiously awaiting Raivann and Raskol as well.

[VP Baltar]

lol, smooth move. Here's to hoping I'm right.

[VP Baltar]

Also, since I haven't had much of chance to speak up today.

I stand by my reads. If Dev does not flip scum, I'd look at Anon and possibly Raivann...though xRECKONERx could be a third buddy I'm reading incorrectly.

I have a strong town read on Amished unless he is completely duping me here (which he IS capable of). Raskol and Starbuck also look decent overall. All three seem to be honestly hunting scum.


Raivann, post some shit before the thread is locked. Seriously. If you don't, I'm considering it a scumtell.

[VP Baltar]

EBWOP: or what Raskol said apparently.

Also, I'm jealous Reck I wanna play some Bioshock 2.

[VP Baltar]

Ah, but clearly you've had enough experience with me (plus special director's insight into my play through hydraing) that you'd play with a plan to trick me if you WERE scum.

I'm a little worried that you are downplaying it...but my mind is too suspicious at times.

[VP Baltar]

who else do you think is scum and why?

I need more from you. Pics or it didn't happen.

[VP Baltar]

Well there you go. Raivan, deliver!

[VP Baltar]

I agree with Amished and Raskol actually. I'm happy for the victory, but this was a massively unbalanced setup in the town's favor. One cop + DV against 3 goons would have been OK, but the backup was complete overkill.

Amished made a good move by bussing so hard Day 1, though it was obviously starting to be questionable after Dev flipped town. Raivann was lurky scum, but no one seemed to be paying all that much attention to him. Honestly, I think the scum team deserved to win this one because most of the town played poorly and only came around because of PRs.

[VP Baltar]

Vote: Anon

Zombie vote from the graaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaave!

[VP Baltar]

haha, I'm sure you learned your lesson to stay cool under pressure Hell.