Mini 885 - Boom, Game Gutshot/Abandoned by Mod!

[Aranfan]

Present.

[Aranfan]

Only scum know scum right out the gate.

Vote: 5cvm

[Aranfan]

Why the vote for squirrel?

I also feel I must side with Xvert. The main argument against him seems to be bare assertion by 5cvm.

[Aranfan]

The main argument against him seems to be bare assertion by 5cvm.

A very convincing assertion, I might add.

Hardly, you simply declared him to be not a friend. Also, you seem to have dropped Squirrel and Rite for xvart and Button way too quickly.

Further, you only did so after I pointed out that only scum would be so certain about who scum are right out of the gate. I shall now end the RVS:

Confirm Vote: 5cvm

[Aranfan]

EBWOP: Too quickly for if you really believed them scum.

[Aranfan]

I pointed out that only scum would be so certain about who scum are right out of the gate.

You did, and you were correct, but since I am, in fact, scum, it's not a very helpful point.

Did you just claim scum? That is so anti-Town I don't even know how to say it.

Also, you seem to have dropped Squirrel and Rite for xvart and Button way too quickly.

That's because I was trying to cover my tracks. Xvart and Button are my scumbuddies.

I very much doubt it, scum wouldn't out their buddies like that, and if you're just a townie who's f'd in the head, you wouldn't know who scum is anyway.

[Aranfan]

Unvote: 5cvm

I am convinced that 5cvm can only be a Jester. It's the only thing that makes any sort of sense.

[Aranfan]

As Chibo says, no reason we have to settle for second place.

[Aranfan]

I agree with most of what xvart says, we shouldn't be satisfied with second place.

Also, the case on him seems to be based on a blind assertion from 5cvm, hardly a reliable source.

[Aranfan]

Aranfan

keeps repeating that we should try to win not take second and is pushing the jester idea. This urging of the town to search for a jester rather then scum hunt seems quite scummy.

Now as for the whole jester thing, even if there is a Jester (and I don't think there is), god forbid the Jester and the town win. The town still wins! However if we compromise our scum hunting because of fear of a jester then that increases the chance of town not winning.

Also @

Aranfan

why the sudden reversal from voting for 5cvm to thinking he's a jester and we can't lynch him? 5cvm has been acting the same way the entire game, so what changed your mind?

As had been said, jester hunting as well as scum hunting increases the chances of correctly lynching from X/12 to X/11.

As to the "sudden reversal" I was trying to figure out why the heck 5cvm would be acting the way he was, and didn't think of Jester until it was suggested. However, Jester fits perfectly, and I'm not satisfied with second place.

[Aranfan]

@

Aranfan

Eliminating someone as a possible scum because they are too scummy to be scum is a terrible idea! Sigh even if there was a a Jester; playing as a Jester is basically playing like scum (given that a jester wants to be lynched, thus they emulate scum). So if there was a jester there should be no way to tell their posts apart from scums. Thus to assume there's a jester and ignore scummy posts for being to scummy means you also ignore scum tells from the mafia.

Except that Scum are trying to act like town so as to not get lynched. That means Jesters will be overt, while Scum will be covert. 5cvm is clearly and obviously a Jester, we can thus move on to hunting the real scum.

Although the question occurs as to who gets first place if the Jester lynched as the final anti-town faction.

[Aranfan]

Also, in my first game there was a guy who claimed scum and acted like a total asswipe.

He was the Doc.


So I'm leery of lynching someone who is overtly scummy.

[Aranfan]

EBWOP: Without other evidence I meant to say.

[Aranfan]

Button,

Being overtly scummy is an excellent way to get lynched, I was leading the wagon in the game I referenced, that's why scum don't act overtly scummy. Additionally, there's usually only one Jester in a game if that many, so at most only one of the scum could use the strategy.

My reluctance is purely a reaction against lynching the Doc in my first game, not a general thing.


Chibo,

I'm advocating not lynching 5cvm today, and waiting for more info. I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear.

[Aranfan]

As for sparking some more not-5cvm discussion, since it's hard to work off nothing (since it's early in Day 1) how about some questions for people.

From my personally, first some questions for Aranfan (since he's who I'm voting atm)

Glad to answer.

1. Have you ever played as an independent role in a mafia game? If so, and it's the type of indie that wins by being the sole survivor, what did you do to try and stay alive at all costs? If you haven't been one before, if you were an indie with the win condition of being a sole survivor - what would be your basic plan of action?

I haven't, so I can't say for sure, but I'd probably try to be unobtrusive. Contributing to the town but not enough to stand out to the factions with a nightkill. That kind of thing.

Although I don't see the relevance to this game.

2. Could you please explain your quote "Although the question occurs as to who gets first place if the Jester lynched as the final anti-town faction." a bit better, as the second half sort of confuses me. Do you mean if the Jester is lynched after the mafia is already taken out?

Yeah, or if there's also an SK then after both the Mafia and SK are dead.

3. Judging by what I quoted, you deem the Jester to be an anti-town role (obviously though), but why exactly do you think so?

Because it can take the win away from the Town, but mainly because it's goal is to cause a mislynch.

4. Let's say you were scum and someone claimed in the game that he knew you were scum. You know everyone in your alignment however and you know that they certainly are not scum, and he got a lucky guess in claiming you. How do you react?

I would probably question and attack the basis for his "knowledge". Of course, that's my standard MO when I have time to concentrate on game regardless of faction. Although, as noted above, I won't actually know until I encounter such a situation.

[Aranfan]

I would like to request a vote-count.

[Aranfan]

I'm here, there's just nothing doing.

I say we lynch the lurker so as to save the mod trouble, and to rid the game of some dead weight.

To that end;

Vote: magisterrain

[Aranfan]

Magisterrain has contributed nothing to the town. He has made all of three posts, only one of which contained anything worth mentioning, and that was to note that 5cvm is a jerk. He has hindered the town by withholding his insights and observations, and also by denying the town of any information with which to judge his alignment. Additionally, he has negatively impacted other's enjoyment of the game by slowing it down.



On a completely irrelevant note, did you know that pressure votes don't work if you say they're pressure votes?

[Aranfan]

Definitely keeping my vote on Aranfan now. The mod already said he's going to replace magisterrain and yet you're trying to push a quick lynch on him. Completely not a town move at all.

Saying a replacement is needed and actually getting a replacement are two very different things. In my first game on the site it took the mod a long time to find needed replacements, and sometimes those replacements would need replacing soon after. It can drag the game down terribly, and lynching is my only recourse against it.

Also, you never did respond to my answers to your questions.

[Aranfan]

Unvote: Magis

[Aranfan]

I like Humble, he posts a lot of info and makes cognizant points. I feel he's town.

[Aranfan]

Wait, how does it follow that if 5cvm is scum then so am I?

[Aranfan]

@ Arafan[/b], Who do you find the most scummy at this point and is there any questions you think should be asked?

Gorilla needs to lurk less and contribute more.




@ Humble, I'll respond after I get some food.

[Aranfan]

I like Humble, he posts a lot of info and makes cognizant points. I feel he's town.

Thank you very much. Do you have a similar feeling on anyone else? Or a scum-read/feeling on someone?

Not really. 5cvm is either a jester or a moron, and while Button is pinging my scumdar, it isn't hard enough for me to actually vote him. Everyone else is kinda neutral or needs to lurk less.

[Aranfan]

Less inclined to go for a lynch on 5cvm now. His last post was very nice.

Moron. Humble's posts are nice, 5cvm's second to last post was worthless. His latest isn't much better.

[Aranfan]

Evilgorrilaz, please, elucidate for us, because the only sense 5cvm makes to me is if he's a jester.

[Aranfan]

Gorrilla is hitting my scumdar for saying that he can make sense of what 5cvm posts but refusing to share this insight with anyone else.

[Aranfan]

EBWOP:

FOS: Evilgorrilaz

[Aranfan]

Gorrilla is hitting my scumdar for saying that he can make sense of what 5cvm posts but refusing to share this insight with anyone else.

Exageration without supporting quote much?

You voted for 5cvm (a safe vote, a lot of people were in on that) and a policy lynch on someone who didn't even post. Yet you won't vote those you find suspicious.....

the more I read 5cvm, the more sense his posts seem to make

Since then both xvart and I have asked him to say what he thinks the method to 5cvm's madness is, and we have gotten this response:

I could explain what I think his posts mean, but then again I could be completely wrong because I'm not him.

I think hes just reacting to people reacting to his playstyle, which is why he finds some people (like hito) scummy.

Then again I'm not him, and you would probably be better off asking him what he means.

Which is not helpful at all. Honestly, if Gorrilaz doesn't start following through on his claim in his next couple of posts I'm voting him.

[Aranfan]

Wrong. If you can't find a method to 5cvm's madness and gorrilaz doesn't provide one, you lynch 5cvm for methodless madness. THEN, if he flips scum, you can perhaps follow this line of inquiry D2. But we don't do it in reverse (you are so crazy that I'm voting some other player for not explaining why you are helpful, but you keep shining on, you crazy diamond).

Hmm, you're right. It took the cats to drive the point home, but you're right.

Vote: 5cvm

If my count is right this should put 5cvm at L-1. So now would be a really good time for him to start making sense.

[Aranfan]

I just realized something, I don't know how relevant it is, but I think it will be somewhat enlightening regarding 5cvm's behavior

5=S (leet)
c=c
v=u (roman)
m=m



I'm thinking Milkshake made this alt for the sole purpose of screwing around as an anti-town jackass.

[Aranfan]

You just realized that? -_-

I wasn't looking for it, it just sorta came to me just then.

[Aranfan]

Aranfan's post is extremely weird. It looks like a mild attempt to show himself scumhunting while not actually doing anything... wich he then accompanies with a threat...

Wrong. If you can't find a method to 5cvm's madness and gorrilaz doesn't provide one, you lynch 5cvm for methodless madness. THEN, if he flips scum, you can perhaps follow this line of inquiry D2. But we don't do it in reverse (you are so crazy that I'm voting some other player for not explaining why you are helpful, but you keep shining on, you crazy diamond).

Hmm, you're right. It took the cats to drive the point home, but you're right.

Vote: 5cvm

If my count is right this should put 5cvm at L-1. So now would be a really good time for him to start making sense.

ok... Remember what I told you to remember?

Evilgorrilaz, please, elucidate for us, because the only sense 5cvm makes to me is if he's a jester.

Why is he voting a jester? He strongly believed Jester was the only choice...

This is a huge contradiction to his train of thoughts.

My weird post was a rebuttal to button saying I was exagerating without support.


My vote for 5cvm was because hito argued his point well enough to change my mind. Is changing one's mind scummy now?

[Aranfan]

EBWOP: Specifically, Hito convinced me that the benefit to the town of lynching 5cvm outweighed the benefit of keeping the Jester alive.

[Aranfan]

My vote for 5cvm was because hito argued his point well enough to change my mind. Is changing one's mind scummy now?

If you don't explain convincingly how and why did you change your mind... yes it is.

The fact is that you totally flipped and are now willing to vote someone you thought was a jester.

EBWOP: Specifically, Hito convinced me that the benefit to the town of lynching 5cvm outweighed the benefit of keeping the Jester alive.

This is better. But we still need a lot more from you.

Who do you think is scum? why?

[Aranfan]

For the next five days I will be V/LA because of Finals.

[Aranfan]

Okay, I'm done with my finals. Will post more when I've caught up.

[Aranfan]

My vote for 5cvm was because hito argued his point well enough to change my mind. Is changing one's mind scummy now?

If you don't explain convincingly how and why did you change your mind... yes it is.

The fact is that you totally flipped and are now willing to vote someone you thought was a jester.

EBWOP: Specifically, Hito convinced me that the benefit to the town of lynching 5cvm outweighed the benefit of keeping the Jester alive.

This is better. But we still need a lot more from you.

Who do you think is scum? why?

Now then, I changed my mind because hito made good and cogent points. 5cvm is posting a lack of content, he's basically posting cats, except they're offensive lolcats. He is negatively impacting the ability of the Town to scumhunt by not only depriving us of whatever mental abilities he may have, but also by declaring that random person X is one of his scumbuddies, usually those who attack him.


As for who I think might be scum:

5cvm: May be scum, claiming scum is a supposed to be a shitty way to avoid getting lynched but it seems to be working for him. Even if he isn't scum, he is actively working against the interests of the town.

Evilgorilaz: He seems way too sure 5cvm is a townie, I said in my second post in the thread that "only scum know scum out the gate" and that also means that only Scum know who is town out the gate. I would be satisfied with a Gorilaz lynch, but would prefer to get 5cvm out of the way first so that he won't get in the way of scumhunting later like he is today.



Those two are the only ones who hit my scumdar hard. The "case" on me seems to be based on shitty logic, and makes me suspicious of the people pushing it, but I might be biased. The rest are neutral to town.

[Aranfan]

Inactive game is inactive, Mod there's multiple players well over the 3 day mark, can we get a round of prods?

Seconded.

[Aranfan]

What on earth is this?, Aranfan?

I was repeating what was, for me, Hito's most convincing argument. Here's a more nuanced explanation.

[Aranfan]

Hello Civil. Welcome to the game.

[Aranfan]

Anyways Arafan is scum and you should vote him.

Once again, do you have any arguments for that position?

[Aranfan]

Hi Tommy.

[Aranfan]

In other words, it's only anti-scum if he is indeed outing his teammates

Isn't that just another reason to lynch him? Also, what part of reading at a remove has inclined you to not engage in a policy lynch you otherwise would have?

[Aranfan]

Not liking "Civil's" Ad Hominems on xvart.

The reason xvart doesn't like you Civil, is that you are suspicious of both those arguing for and those arguing against 5cvm's lynch.

[Aranfan]

Not liking your usage of "Ad Homminem", since I'm not using it to further or support an argument.

You are, however, using it to denigrate xvart and erode his credibility.

is that you are suspicious of both those arguing for and those arguing against 5cvm's lynch.

I'm sorry, these are mutually exclusive somehow? In theory or game mechanics? It's wrong for me to feel that way? You two are full of crap?

I recognized this "flaw" in my reasoning/observations:

I realize it can't be both sides of the scvm deal the way I'm looking at it, or totally one side etc, and I can't be sure which is which until people on either end start to die.

Contradictory opinions usually are mutually exclusive.

Unless my memory fails me, buttons backed scvm first. Gorillaz and xfart followed suit later. This looks better for buttons than either of those two, imo. And, aranfan, I was wrong before, it's entirely possible that xvart took that road to distance from hito who is over there by himself at the extreme pole of the issue, especially when it was a lynch that could still happen.

IIRC, Gorillaz was until recently the only one who defended 5cvm.

In the meantime, aranfan you can read posts that aren't on this page you know, you just click the other numbers at the bottom or top of this page.

Congrats, you have eyes. I generally don't post unless I've read the whole of the thread previous.

Aranfan, thanks for clarifying xfart's thoughts! Now, what do YOU think about them? That seems curiously absent from lots of your posting. Are you onboard for everything, or do you simply mention it without disagreeing or agreeing with it?

I'm on board with the policy lynch on 5cvm.

[Aranfan]

I have not been responding to the pressure on me because I cannot see anything to

respond to

. I have no idea what the case on me is based on.

[Aranfan]

Thank you Tommy, now that I know the case on me I can rebut it.

xvart and A_Squirrel have asked for a recap of the case against Aranfan, and Aranfan claims he doesn't know what it is either. Here's my summary.

When he confirmed his vote for 5cvm in 48, I don't think he gave a strong enough justification. He was taking 5cvm's arsing about at face value, and that made me begin to suspect him.

I wanted to end the RVS. It didn't quite work.

81 was his first U-turn. He unvoted and said "I am convinced that 5cvm can only be a Jester." This level of certainty seems false, and it's repeated in 105.

It's the only logical explanation assuming everyone is playing to their win condition.

169 is justly famous:
"I say we lynch the lurker so as to save the mod trouble, and to rid the game of some dead weight."

I think this is most likely to be an awful scum mis-step. It's certainly anti-town to lynch a player just before a replacement, since you're voluntarily giving up any information you might have got from the new player. Aranfan's case was fishy too - he tried to equate lurking with not playing.

In my experience, lurking

has

been equal to not playing.

214 is a good example of his lack of interest in finding scum.

The day had been ongoing for nearly a month by that point. The fatigue Chibo references had begun to set in. And Day 1 is a notoriously poor day for scumhunting.

255 is another U-turn. He joins Hito's bandwagon and votes for 5cvm with no explanation. It's unclear whether he's still certain 5cvm is a jester.

I still think 5cvm is a jester. And I did explain: Hito had convinced me with his arguments that it was all around better (more fun and easier on the town) to lynch the jester than to let him live.

317, 318: Aranfan explicitly defers his answer to Humble Poirot's question for five days, rather than answering it immediately. The move referenced an earlier trick by Hitogoroshi, but Aranfan never properly explained why he did it.

I changed my vote because Hito convinced me that it was in the towns best interest to lynch 5cvm. I deferred my answer to Humble for 5 days because of college finals.

[Aranfan]

In my experience, lurking has been equal to not playing.

So would you do something like that again (push for the lynch of a lurker about to be replaced)?

Yes.

I still think 5cvm is a jester. And I did explain: Hito had convinced me with his arguments that it was all around better (more fun and easier on the town) to lynch the jester than to let him live.

So you think 5cvm is a jester, but still want to lynch him. Can you explain how that makes sense to me, cus I'm just not seeing it.

Because of 5cvm's utter lack of relevant content, getting rid of him makes the town more likely to

not lose

.

[Aranfan]

EBWOP: To clarify my "yes", the only thing going through my head when I saw Magis was going to be replaced was "Shit, this will drag the Game to a screeching halt".

[Aranfan]

Wait. I'm at L-1?

[Aranfan]

So now would be a good time to roleclaim or do a lengthy analysis of people?

[Aranfan]

Don't claim. But yes, do an analysis. Don't try to do a long thing about everyone because that turns into Information instead of Analysis pretty quickly.

Here's a hint - if I'm not voting 5cvm it's pretty safe to say there's no hope lynching him today. :p So your first order of business is to look at EG. Is the wagon on him deserved? If so, help bolster the EG case. If not, pick your biggest scum read you think you can get lynched by deadline and start hyping the hell out of a wagon on them. (May I suggest button?)

Considering that I'm the only one still on 5cvm you're probably right. While I would like to get button lynched, EG has the strongest case against him.

Unvote
Vote: EvilGorillaz

I'll post my case on him tomorrow when I'm not falling down tired.

[Aranfan]

Screw this. If my count is right then I'm at L-1 yes? I own up, I'm scum. The game also changed from fun to mindnumbingly boring about the time I got back from finals.



And I would have pushed the Magis Lynch even if I was town, everything I said regarding that action was the truth. I've also been keeping up with the thread, just not posting due to sheer boredom.

And no, you're not getting who the other scum is out of me.

Unvote
Vote: Aranfan

[Aranfan]

EBWOP: I was planning to claim roleblocker, but just got too fed up.

[Aranfan]

In this topic, we learn why lynching non-contributors is always the winning move.

Indeed.

[Aranfan]

Whatever floats your boat Button. I will admit to typing that quickly and without careful attention.


I will also admit to having both ADHD and Dyslexia.

Relevant

[Aranfan]

A) Best way to call WIFOM I've ever seen.

Thank you.

B) You wouldn't call WIFOM if I was wrong, you would have let us believe it.

[Aranfan]

My, I've gotten chatty haven't I? Might be because claiming got a load off my shoulders I didn't know was there.




Also, Button, both "is" and "are" are conjugations of "am". And conjugating verbs are always hard.

[Aranfan]

I'm going with no, due Arafan's wording on his surrender post.

Also Booooo @ mod, this is pretty unclassy behaviour.

Gorilla was scum. I was trying to throw you off.