Mini 892 - Mayor Mafia (GAME OVER)

[nhammen]

Hello charter! You were in the second newbie game I played!
Hello Debonair Danny DiPietro! You are in a game I'm modding!
Hello Hoopla! You're in Reckoner's game I just died in!
Hello MonkeyMan576! You were in DAy Night Mafia... and I thought you were scum... sorry bout that.
Hello xRECKONERx! This is the third game we've been in together, plus the game you're modding.

Once the game starts, I will use all of this information to make a very detailed, very detail-less, random vote.

[nhammen]

For mayor, I will first look at the players I know. charter tunnels too much, so a double vote for him might be a bad idea. MonkeyMan played fairly scummy in the last game, so is having a double vote on a player that looks scummy when town a good idea? Hoopla is a good scumhunter. I am leaning in this direction currently.

[nhammen]

I've played with most of the guys here...the only guys I'm unfamiliar with are kyle, moai, Cathart, and Kerrigan.

nhammen, why did you leave xReck off your list for mayor? And would you not consider someone you hadn't played with?

And I didn't realize it was you who killed me in Day Night Mafia:P. I'm not a vengeful person though.

I didn't kill you in day night. I just tagged you as scum, and multiple players agreed with me, including, I think, the player that killed you.


Reck, after my list about who I've played with, I did in fact mention a few qualities about some players for mayor. But I only mentioned players that had qualities that I though were important to the Mayor role. Although, I should have mentioned that I usually can't read Reck (which is surprising because he has been in more games with me than anyone else). That is actually a bad thing for a double voter. However, other players have successfully read Reck, so I'm not too worried about it.


OMG pictures are soooo funny.

[nhammen]

You seem rather narcisistic. You're implying that we should all vote based on who you've played with and who you can read, etc?

Not at all, I'm just saying that at this point, I only have information on people I have played with before. As the game continues I will gain better information.

Why do you think you cannot read me, nhammen? And what players do you think CAN read me? Not even I can read myself. I'm illiterate.

Let's see. The first game we were in together was my first newbie game (can't remember the number; its in my wiki). You were scum, and I didn't agree with everyone else's opinions. Although in that game, I couldn't pick out a single scum...
Next was Day Night. I didn't have any real read on you in that game either, if I am remembering correctly. Are those the only two games we have been in together? I guess so. So I haven't played in more games with you than everyone else.
I don't remember being able to read you in either game though. Maybe I'm wrong about Day Night. My memory isn't that great. That's why I rely on logical scumhunting rather than gut.

[nhammen]

... really? I don't remember this... I must be better than I thought.

[nhammen]

Why not discuss what we're doing with the mayor and what the best qualities are rather than go into a pretty unnecessary RVS?

I'm thinking good qualities would be:

a) Active
b) Easy to read
c) Good scumhunter
d) Good townhunter
e) Convincing.

To be honest, I have a) down pat. b) and e) I'm certainly not and c) and d) are variable and late-game centric at best, so I'd consider myself pretty mediocre as mayor. I was only half kidding in what I wrote to charter - I doubt one extra vote will be what I need to lynch scum.

Anyone else thinking of mayoral qualities/candidates?

I'm not too active (the once a day requirement almost made me not sign up). I don't know about easy to read, as I have never been scum yet. However, when I was Cop in Newbie 850, I was roleblocked night 1. I am a good scumhunter. So far I have a 66% catch ratio... starting with Day Night. I don't know about townhunting. I haven't kept track. Convincing? Not enough. Not early enough. See Newbie 850 for an example.

Support nhammen

for now. I'll change it if an agreeable support wagon forms. Currently, I have three people who I feel agreeable about.

Monkey's argument for why self nominating is scummy is not the justification I would expect town to use at all (if they believed that), and it furthers the notion that Monkeyman is, indeed, trying to push suspicion onto others rather than find scum. His reason for why election results being obvious is scummy is just ridiculous.

Cathart, who are you most suspicious of right now?

MORE PEOPLE SUPPORT SERIAL! HE DOES NOT RAPE BABIES (I hope).

I could get behind this.

Reck and nhammen are my top suspects right now.

Why?

MOI, why was Kerrigan a better vote than Monkey?

I don't plan on calming down. We have scum dancing on a bed of hot coals, no need to let the feet cool off.

How do you know it's scum? You could have townies dancing on hot coals... a sight which scum love to see.


BTW, I called it. charter is tunneling and Monkey is playing scummy.

[nhammen]

Do you even know how much power this role has in the hands of scum, SC? We lose out on an ENTIRE day! Not to mention the extra ability for scum to throw their weight around and direct exactly what lynches will happen where. I would DEFINITELY rather this role be wasted on a tunneling townie than give it to a possible scumbag.

The problem is scum are likely to say exactly this if they see a townie tunneling on another townie. Then it wastes a day AND directs attention towards the tunneling player. Personally, Serial is looking ALOT more townie than you are.

[nhammen]

How does it waste an entire day in the hands of a bad townie? I was talking about how they are a whole vote closer to holding majority and the game will end one day sooner. This isn't kingmaker, and if the mayor obviously isn't on the right track we can still lynch the old fashioned way.

Yeah, because the player that is voted mayor today is obviously going to survive until endgame.[/sarcasm] I admit I was a little bit confused about what you were saying.

Some more thoughts while I'm still here:

The monkeyman wagon is good - he's at L-2 I believe. But I'm fine with putting him at L-1 considering we can't lynch until we've chosen a mayor. I don't think his blanket suspicion was bad, but the reaction to his own wagon was definitely off.

Re my support for mayor: I'd still prefer mayoring whoever we make our D1 lynch candidate, and don't intend to support mayoring anyone else until I hear sound reasoning behind why this would be a good idea on D1.

What happens if we lynch and support scum? Actually, don't answer that. If this does happen, we need them to be guessing at our response. There is some serious WIFOM involved here, and we want scum to have no idea what the answer is.

Also, how is there any difference between one confirmed town and a majority of town choosing the mayor. Either way, the people choosing have no idea about alignment.

Dangit! Ninja'd by two other players!!

Anyhow, who the mayor is now isn't really that important. Scum having an additional public vote on day one isn't a big deal. It will be important for them not to have it in the coming days, as it essentially makes LYLO one day sooner if the mayor is scum.

QFT

[nhammen]

Wouldn't nominate =/= don't want to be. There's a difference. It sounded like you were scared of nominating yourself because you thought that, as you said yourself, 'people that nominate themselves shouldn't get the role'. Your answers to the questionnaire were an act of modesty, same as Serial's, Reckoner's, Nhammen's -- do we see a trend here? No one is arrogant enough to claim that they meet all the requirements to be a perfect mayor. I realise you can keep repeating that you answered the questionnaire because you 'thought it was a good idea', but do you see anyone else answering it and not wanting to me mayor? Serial himself is in denial about it, but that's because he believes there are better options. Unlike you: 'not yet sure who to nominate either'. If your post was actually a bid for mayor, it would've been fine. But wanting to be considered for mayor + not saying it outright because you felt that 'people that nominate themselves shouldn't get the role' = dishonesty. Now if you actually didn't want to be mayor in the first place, then I am mistaken (and I apologise), but that was the impression I got from your post 66, and even if I was right you can keep claiming I was wrong anyway. This line of argument isn't going to go anywhere, so let me ask you something else. Why did you feel that 'people that nominate themselves shouldn't get the role'? Also, who are you suspicious of?

@Charter, the answer to why I think Kerrigan is scummy is somewhere above. In short, what Monkey and Cathart did + actually wanting to be considered for mayor. Maybe I should get your opinion - does post 66 give you the impression that Kerrigan was being dishonest about wanting to be mayor? Mind you it's not as strong a suspicion that I'm willing to burn through him with a magnifying glass for it - after all it's still early game. Conversely, I don't get why you saw Monkey's blanket statement as a tell that he couldn't be anything but scum either. Why did you only give Cathart a FoS even before he retracted anything, whilst you had Monkey pegged as '100% scum'?

I'm not a fan of Hoopla's idea at all TBH. Town are uninformed and scum can WIFOM. All very pointless. And since it doesn't look like anyone else wants Reckoner to be mayor, I'll

Unsupport, Support: nhammen

.

Your case on Kerrigan is almost nonexistent. I do not get anything about Kerrigan wanting to be mayor. In fact, I get the opposite. Thank you for supporting me though.

I can understand why townies feel uneasy about having people supporting themselves as mayor. It makes sense. But then Socrates mentioned that townies should support themselves, and gave very good arguments for it. People having the old opinion are not scummy for having this opinion. Reactions for being called out on being scummy for this, are, on the other hand, useful. I have a few suspicions right now. I guess I need to go do some meta research to see whether these suspicions are valid. Just to let everyone know, I disagree with the case on Kerrigan. I agree with the case on Monkey, with one caveat: he played scummy in Day Night. I plan on checking his activity in Day Night, and comparing to this. If the comparison is unsatisfactory, I will be willing to vote him.

(Some of this has to do with meta. It seems every time I play with MM or have read his play, he gets run up to a lynch pretty early on for rather bullshit reasons.)

Exactly why I am going to compare.

[nhammen]

My meta read on Monkey was inconclusive. Monkey, do you have any games in which you were scum you could link me to?

Also, during my reread I noticed some things:

MIC, don't do it.

What did this mean? Also, why have most of your posts been fluff?

All people who vote others without posting their reasons are scum.

See what I did there? I laid down an unfounded accusation with no justification that lets me accuse others of being scum for no good reason.

Funny story: I've caught scum with that mentality before.

MORE PEOPLE SUPPORT SERIAL! HE DOES NOT RAPE BABIES (I hope).

What is with you and serial? Why are you so sure he's a good choice?

MIC, not to look a gift horse in the mouth, but why did you switch your support from Reck to me? There were other options available. What about me makes me stand out? Why were you supporting Reck in the first place?

That is all for now. Thank you for taking my questions.

[nhammen]

More from my reread:

Very contradictory.

Vote: SaintKerrigan
Support: Moai Interceptor Cannons

Why?

@ MIC: Okay, consider argument dropped. Right now, I'm a little wary of Monkey. He just seemed to jump straight on to the Post 66 argument, blindly agreeing with what you said.

I didn't blindly agree. I actually thought about it.

Give us your thoughts.

[nhammen]

Dumb quote tags. I deleted Socrates' quote to save space, but didn't delete the [quote] tag.

[nhammen]

Do people really not see the discrepancy between answering Serial's mayoral test thing and then claiming he doesn't want to be mayor?

It looked to me like Serial wanted everyone to comment on it. Commenting and showing why he is not a good candidate looks like he didn't want to be mayor to me. Your argument looks like pure BS. And the fact that Monkey is willing to agree with such a BS argument is a bit odd.

So, Monkey, can you quote specifically where he was "indicating he wanted to be mayor"?

[nhammen]

!! Especially considering that Serial did the SAME THING in the post where he asked the question. Why are you two attacking Saint for this but not Serial?

[nhammen]

Because the fact that I was sure he was scum in Day Night, and he happened to be a townie, is causing me to hold back. But, I am letting the fact that I was wrong once give him a free pass, and that is bad play.

Vote: Monkey

[nhammen]

Also, I kept forgetting about the rules of this game (at least Day 1) until just now, when I voted for him.

[nhammen]

Yes, but he played that bad in Day Night as well. Horrible arguments, and not backing down when everyone else said his arguments were horrible. I've seen this before. Bad logic is not always a scumtell.

But after saying that, I cannot let the fact that he plays badly give him a free pass. If he's scum it would let him get away with anything.

Additionally, he never answered these questions:

So, Monkey, can you quote specifically where he was "indicating he wanted to be mayor"?

Especially considering that Serial did the SAME THING in the post where he asked the question. Why are you two attacking Saint for this but not Serial?

[nhammen]

Oh I see. You mean if I had read the game he is quoting. OK

[nhammen]

I'm the cop by the way.

Shit! I can believe this.

unvote

Note: This may only be temporary. Monkey, you need to answer the questions I have asked you. Here they are again:
Have you ever been scum, and if so, in what game?
Can you quote exactly what Saint has said that makes you think he wanted to be mayor?
Why did you attack Saint for something that Serial did as well?

@Nhammen, I cannot answer for anything Monkey did. It almost looks like you're expecting me to. Just a warning.

Nope, but I can see why you thought that. I was just saying that your argument sucked. Then I said that Monkey's support of this argument sucked as well. Two different comments aimed at two different players.

It looked to me like Serial wanted everyone to comment on it. Commenting and showing why he is not a good candidate looks like he didn't want to be mayor to me.

I completely disagree here. Serial wanted people to comment on the

validity of the list itself

and/or

players who fit the criteria

(i.e. 'candidates' - not 'non-candidates') maybe, but I honestly do not see a reason to fill it out when you don't want to be at least considered for mayor (with the

possible

special exception of its creator, see below). Wouldn't a simple 'I don't want to be mayor' suffice? Or even 'I shouldn't be mayor because I suck at scumhunting, townhunting and convincing people'. Or even not mentioning it at all, like most people. Again, I don't think anyone can truthfully claim that they fit all the criteria (I mean yours was 1/5, yet you're still supporting yourself).

Well then we disagree, because that is what I saw. How about we do what we should have done pages ago: Saint, what was you reason for filling out Serial's mayor criterion list?

I wasn't even attacking Kerrigan until Charter asked me to (it was a page 4 gut vote FFS).

Ummm... Two comments on this line: 1 - Gut votes are crap. 2 - So after Charter asked you to explain your vote, you decided to find a reason? Am I understanding what you are saying incorrectly here?

Also, Serial's context was not the same. There were several people campaigning for him to be mayor. He then creates a list of mayoral qualities, and demonstrates that he himself does not fit all these qualities (meaning there are better options). And seriously Nhammen, think of how fishy it would be if Serial spews out this list and proceeds

not

to answer it himself given the support on him at the time. But I do believe Serial wants to be mayor

to an extent

, he's just saying that it might not be the best idea. I have a (very) mild scum read on Serial anyway, as mentioned in my last post.

So Serial wanted to preempt the push for him to be mayor. How is this different from Saint?

[nhammen]

nhammen - After monkeyman gets to L1, he says that he's a cop. nhammen says

Shit! I can believe this.

The fact that he believes the claim of cop when he was about to be lynched when he has already acted scummy.

Sorry, but I have seen how he plays as town, and I can easily see town Monkey doing all of these things.

I was scum in Mafia...91? I think. Also in TTGL Mafia.

Thank you for providing this. Unfortunately after comparing your play here to both Mafia 91 and Mafia 97, I cannot tell the difference between twon Monkey and scum Monkey. It seems like this reaching with bad arguments and refusal to back down is part of his general meta. He does this both as scum and as town.

When he felt out the 5 point checklist, then said he didn't want to be mayor, but then again...it seemed like he did want it and disingenuine.

Explain how "it seemed like he did want it" please.

It was the way that he went about it.

Explain. I don't want short "just because" type answers. I want a real explanation here.

To all more experienced players: How do you tell the difference between scum and town on a player that always looks like the scummiest player in the game?

[nhammen]

And yet even more evidence to make me worried about a possible nhammen/reck scum team...

I'm actually slightly worried about Reck. On the first few pages, I thought he looked protown. I no longer get that impression. Although, I'm glad for his support. It just seems like the two players other than myself that are supporting me are both players that I find mildly scummy. I don't know what to make of this.

I could also make a few comments on your suspicions, but don't want to add any unnecessary WIFOM to the game. Just go back and reread please.

[nhammen]

To everyone concerned with my reaction to the claim: I said "I can believe this", not "I do believe this". But, if there is any chance of it being true, we should wait until tomorrow. It is only Day 1 after all. There is plenty of time. And lynching a power role Day 1 is a bad start to the game. It will give him an investigation, or he will be roleblocked. Either way, we get information. If we still don't believe tomorrow, we can always lynch him then.

In my opinion, a claimed cop should never be lynched day 1, unless there is role based information that he can't be trusted. If he's scum, he still has buddies and they can be lynched. This is a lesson I learned in my 2nd newbie game. But now that I think about it, Incog is the player that convinced me of this, and he was scum in that game. Hmmm... So was he wearing his IC hat when he said that or his scum hat? I still think it is a VERY bad idea to lynch a claimed cop on Day 1.

[nhammen]

Not lynching a claimed cop or whatever day one is debatable, but in my opinion bad mafia strategy. You end up lynching someone not as scummy, and basically never lynch scum day one, all they have to do is claim a power role.

point taken... didn't think of that.

And it sure seemed like you believe him, because you unvoted him, but then said it might only be temporary.

It was temporary specifically because I wasn't, and still am not sure. If I completely believed him, it WOULDN'T be temporary.

But now you say a claimed cop should never be lynched day one. So clearly your unvote wasn't just temporary, you have no intention of voting Monkey again. Pretty big contradiction. Also gives me pause on a Monkey lynch, since if you're scum, you would probably unvote a claimed power role if they aren't scum with you, not wanting to be on a town power role lynch. Though, if you're town this is a likely possibility as well.

Hmmm... true. All I can say is that I have been very indecisive over this issue. The only other time this has happened in a game I've been in is in that newbie game. I have not read enough in Mafia Discussion to decide how to correctly react to this situation. So my opinion has varied wildly. At first I wanted responses from Monkey, and then after I got these, I had to try to make a decision, and so I thought back to the only other time that this has happened.

I'm currently debating if these contradictions, plus a lot of theory discussion and non commitment and leaving many roads open, make you scummier than Monkey. You also make a very juicy partner with MIC, who is a common denominator in about all scumpairs I can think of right now.

I was actually seriously thinking of voting him in my last post. He has connections with pretty much every scummy player. And his own arguments have sucked.

As for Nhammen, I didn't like the 'oh shit' comment and I didn't like the part above talking about the IC advice. I'm sure he's an intelligent enough lad to think past what an IC told him in his first game, and I'm sure he's able to parse the information whether it came from scum or town. The whole thing just felt a little forced.

Everyone keeps having these high opinions of my ability at this game. I mean I'm glad that people think this about me, but I just don't see it. Maybe I'm way better than I think I am. This is only the second time I have been in this situation, and I've not seen this discussed in Mafia Discussion, so I didn't know what to do here.

[nhammen]

Arg! missing comma: "because I wasn't, and still am not

,

sure."

[nhammen]

Yeah, it's just a situation I am not too familiar with. Ummm... with that said however, I have to point out that if Monkey is scum, then MIC's attack on Saint looks very much like distraction tactics away from Monkey. And if Monkey is not scum, then we shouldn't be lynching him. Either way, I think at this point

vote MIC

is the way to go.

[nhammen]

Monkey was unfairly pressured. His offense was not deserving of the intensity of the attack Charter directed at him. He cracked. Like what I did in this one game on one of my alts where I was town and asked if the RVS was over and got pounded on the basis of 'testing the waters' or whatever it was.

All else failed. He was desperate to prove Charter was wrong.

He resorted to AtE. What's important isn't the actual intention of Charter's post in Muppets, but rather what Monkey

believed

was its intention. Come on, think. Nobody would purposely throw onto the table an argument they thought was wrong. Then he claimed. That was his last resort. Because there was too much pressure.

I agree that Monkey did not do this (quote from Muppets) on purpose. If that was the only evidence against him, I wouldn't even find him scummy in the slightest. But just because 1 piece of evidence sucks does not mean all of the evidence sucks. Also, you REALLY should not be defending another player in this fashion. There are very few circumstances where this is pro-town.

ARTICLE 3
CONCERNING MY 'ATTACK' ON KERRIGAN

You should have just said it was gut if it was just gut. I would have disagreed, but my opinion on gut votes is my opinion. Giving more information, when your more information was not even a reason at all is scummy. Yes, I know your arguments make sense to you. When nobody else agreed, you should have backed down. That is Monkey's problem too. When he spots a "scumtell" he sticks with it, even when all other players point out that it is NOT a scumtell.

"2 - So after Charter asked you to explain your vote, you decided to find a reason? Am I understanding what you are saying incorrectly here?"

There is a difference between a reason

in my head

and a reason

I have to present in-thread to other people

. Post 66 set off my scumdar. There was a reason in my head. I voted him. A reason in my head is for my use only. It's made of brain signals. I usually only present an actual argument when I want to convince people that someone is scum. I could've ended it with 'it felt dishonest'. Maybe I should've. But I didn't, I explained it further. I turned brain signals into words. My words that eventually came out in-thread are what you interpreted as an attack on Kerrigan. Which it really wasn't (see above). Also see the bottom line of post 71. I was only half joking there.

In my opinion a reason in your head should always be just as valid as a reason that can be stated to other players. However, I know other players like gut and all, so I'll just stop about that.

"So Serial wanted to preempt the push for him to be mayor. How is this different from Saint?"

I don't even understand this question.

Your explanation was that Serial wanted to stop people from voting him for mayor, because a few people were pushing for this. How is this different from what Saint was doing? Just because nobody was voting for Saint yet?

"And if Monkey is not scum, then we shouldn't be lynching him. Either way, I think at this point vote MIC is the way to go."

Would you mind explaining to me the logic behind me being scum if Monkey isn't? Because if this reasoning flies then defending players is now considered a scumtell regardless of the alignment of the defended player. Which I am really going to laugh hard about post-game.

As I said, defending Monkey is not the only reason that I find you scummy. What is very interesting is that most of the players I find scummy other than yourself (Monkey, Reck, and to a much smaller extent Serial) have strong connections to you. When you have multiple different possible scumpairs, the sensible option is to lynch the common factor. Discounting Monkey, you are the scummiest player here, and you have connections with #2 and #3 on that list.

Kyle - This guy looks town~

ish

so far. Could be town.
Danny - This guy

seriously

needs to post moar. No idea.

How did you get a read on Kyle but not Danny? They both need to post more.

Nhammen - This guy's lack of focus is worrisome. But probably town.

Define "lack of focus"

You guys are seriously tempting me to want to lynch Monkey. If he flips town I will be proven right all along and you can start listening to me and we can all stop being silly. But of course that's horrible logic. Don't tempt me even more

please

. Oh hi, opportunists and Nhammen and Charter, I still love you guys. My vote on Kerrigan is pretty useless right now. There is nothing to argue with him about. But voting Cathart won't do anything either considering you people's immense hatred of gut-driven suspicions.

If he flips town you will be proven right?? This comment pings my scumdar.

You keep calling me and charter opportunists. Why?

Voting Cathart is something I was thinking of. When I have no memory of a player's actions it says something about that player. In the past, this has usually been because the player is intentionally hiding. However, I have seen nothing else scummy from him. So maybe it's a problem with my memory.

So, at least for a little while, if we assume monkey town and MIC town, then the person who sticks out is nhammen to me.

Why?

This nhammen wagon reeks of scum tbqh

There is only one player voting me. This is no wagon. Also, does this quote mean that you think that Serial is scum?

[nhammen]

Wait What?? How does the latest back and forth seal anything?

[nhammen]

And why so fast to push for following Hoopla's plan?

[nhammen]

Sorry for the triple post, but that post from DDD was just weird.

I guess it isn't fast. Since his is the first support for Monkey that I can remember.

[nhammen]

besides the option of monkey being a bad player, which I don't think.

Seriously? What gives you this idea? Either way, he's a bad player.

In fact, that entire paragraph of yours is crap.

Too lazy to do it yourself?

Unvote:
Vote: DDD

Could you please stop parroting other players and put some of your own effort into this game?

[nhammen]

Kyle: His last post is bad logic. Seems to believe that it's valid logic. Not sure if just noob.
Monkey: His last post makes no sense. Lack of sincerity. Nhammen makes a good call.
Danny vs Serial: Feels like town bashing town to me. Don't see the case on Danny.
Hoopla: I eagerly await the arrival and success of said technician. No seriously.

I'd like to know what about this argument gives you that they are both town. I agree that the points against DDD are pretty bad. But where do you get that the bad points mean they are both town?

[nhammen]

A few items:

MIC has convinced me he isn't scummy. Or maybe I'm succumbing to one of those logica fallacies... We'll find out later.

unvote

Hoopla - I have only played one game with her, and her play in that game does not match her play here. This game is ongoing, so I can't discuss further. It does, however, cause me to lean a little bit in the way of her being scum. However, this could all be due to the fact that she replaced in the other, so had more information

Reck - I have already stated that I find his buddying scummy. As well as vote hopping (he's already voted 4 different players). However, multiple people have tried to convince me that the second is not a scumtell.

I just don't see where charter is going with this line of questioning. It's nit-picky and obnoxious.

Answer anyways!

vote Reck

It seems like I don't have any real scum reads on any players. However, I have 4 players that I have town reads on. Adding myself gives almost half the players as town. Looks like the strategy for today is Process of Elimination.

Also, I REALLY have a problem with Hoopla's strategy. The day 1 lynch will most likely either be scum, or a player that has reads the rest of the town does not trust. Is this who we want to entrust the mayoral choice to? I think not.

I am going to support Socrates, except I'm not to sure about the rules of this game, and it would be support-hammer. Anybody have any problems with me doing this?

[nhammen]

BTW, in case it wasn't clear, I will support a Hoopla lynch.

[nhammen]

Vote hopping if you've got reasons and follow up on them isn't a scumtell. If you just constantly pull 'I agree with soandso, vote' and barely mention that person again that's really scummy (which is nearly what Reckoner is doing and what Monkeyman is doing).

Also, Reck was extremely conservative with his votes in Day Night. That does not match his play here at all.

[nhammen]

Because I wanted to see how Reck would react. His reaction didn't really change anything. I was hoping it would. Oh well.

And now that that's done, Hoopla seems to be getting the most votes from my not town-read choices, so...

unvote
vote: Hoopla

[nhammen]

So does this mean that you guys still don't want to lynch monkey? Because he seems the most scummy right now. For anyone not voting money, is it because you believed his Cop claim, or because you don't think he's scummy for other reasons.

There is enough of a possibility of it being true for me to not want to lynch him today. Also, if Monkey is scum, who are his partners?

*facepalm*

Hate to break it to you folks, but neither Hoop nor MM are the lynches for today. kylelynch gogogo

Why not Hoopla?

[nhammen]

@Serial and Nhammen, what do you think of Kyle?

Either newb or scum. He was attempting to active lurk until coming under pressure (and still does occasionally). His logic is awful, but bad logic is not scummy in itself. He doesn't seem to realize the inconsistency between

I think monkey being scum is the only logical reason for claiming cop.

and

IF he is the cop, he can either not claim and possibly be lynched or claim and possibly not be lynched, but then night killed tonight.

I don't think this is intentional regardless of alignment. So this logic seems to be a newbtell. Whether he is newbscum or newbtown, I'm not sure.

If someone is universally regarded as scummy in a serious manner, they are almost certainly not town, or else they have a ruthless scum team.

At least one player sees where I was going with my partner questioning.

Letting Monkeyman live is one of the worst ideas I have ever seen. Has there been a single wagon he hasn't been on?

Has there been a single player that has not been on his wagon, or supporting his wagon?

[nhammen]

So, we can lynch Monkeyman now?

I would prefer Hoopla.

A cop is a signifigantly weaker role when it's been outed - especially Day 1. The benefit in keeping him alive is if he is the cop, he will likely draw a nightkill (meaning we get a different lynch today).

Lynching him tomorrow is the worse choice out of everything suggested. If Monkey gets an innocent tonight, we get one confirmable result in exchange for a mislynch. I don't see this as a good scenario.

A cop's power to confirm innocents and find scum is almost completely removed when he is outed. As he is either scum, lying, or will be night killed/blocked. The nightkill scenario is good - but is dependant on him being truthful. If this is the best result we can hope for if he is town, isn't it more worthwhile to take the gamble he's scum?

What percentage do you put Monkey as scum? More than me?

Your use of the "no use to us now" defense is, as some would say, noted. If anything, he is useful to us in that he draws a NK. Or gives us information on whether or not there is a roleblocker. Or, yes, gives us alignment information on a player.

[nhammen]

I say, Yay! We have a 1 for 1! Then I look at who Monkey claimed a guilty on, and compare with Monkey. Player more likely to be scum bites the dust.

[nhammen]

Yeah, but there's a decent chance you don't get to cash in your scum lynch until Day 3. Is it really worth waiting that long for a confirmed scum?

There's also a decent chance we can cash in our scum lynch on Day 1. If he really is the cop, then lynching him is retarded. The cost of lynching the cop more than makes up for the likelihood of him being scum. Waiting until Day 3 is always a possibility. Are you suggesting that we avoid having 1 for 1 situations? I think these are good things.

Also, remember this:

I don't think we should lynch him though. Monkey is more likely to claim cop as cop, than claim cop as scum. I think the value of a potential investigation can be quite damaging for mafia, and if he is truthful, he will likely absorb the night kill (saving us a lynch).

If Monkey is mafia, we have him captured. There is not much difference between lynching him D1 than on D2. In both of these scenarios we have 2 other scum to hit out of everyone else. So if there is little difference in the scenarios if he is mafia, we might as well choose the option that benefits town more if he is town - which is an investigation or night kill. Unless mafia have a roleblocker they run a serious risk in leaving Monkey alive.

What changed your mind?

Nhammen, Can you get behind a Kyle lynch? Why Hoopla over Kyle? What do you think about the take on the Hoopla wagon that I gave earlier?

I can definitely get behind a kyle lynch. However, I think Hoopla looks scummier than kyle. Her suspicions are without reason. Yes, it could be "apathy and a low confidence" from a townie, as you say, but it doesn't look that way to me.

You still haven’t shown that there’s a significant chance that there’s no roleblocker. As long as logic dictates that the game is “properly” balanced with a roleblocking or redirecting role in the hands of scum then Monkey’s hypothetical role now that it’s been outed is no better than vanilla.

Then we will find out that there is a roleblocker. I don't see how this is a bad thing. "Useless to us now" is bad bad BAD logic.


Sigh, I just ISOed Hoopla to compare with Socrates' comments on the Hoopla wagon. I can see his arguments. Ummm... I guess I'll go with

unvote
vote kyle

But if Hoopla turns out to be scum I will be annoyed that you have convinced me.

[nhammen]

You can see his arguments? You guess? Do you think the Kyle argument is stronger than the hoopla argument?

The argument against Hoopla is that his arguments are crap.
The argument against kyle is that he has been active lurking AND his arguments are crap.
So kyle comes out scummier. Although, if Hoopla doesn't answer my question, I could very easily switch right back!

YUK. Scummy.

IF Hoopla THEN nhammen.

Explain. I was just commenting that if when the game ends, it turns out that Hoopla is scum, then I'll be mightily pissed that I allowed myself to be convinced by this. Also, what's with the IF THEN? That looks like trying to set up a quicklynch.

BTW:

Support Socrates

nhammen, letting Monkeyman live to "find out if we have a roleblocker" is such a horrible idea.

No, I was saying that if there's a roleblocker, we can find this out. That's not the reason we keep him alive. We keep him alive to absorb the Mafia kill or block and to possibly get a result. He absorbs what the Mafia throw at us. THAT's why we keep him alive.

Hoopla has pulled a giant 360, from initially thinking Monkeyman is more likely to claim cop as cop than scum, to disagreeing with lynching him day one, then self preservation voting him, to now arguing about how his role is useless and we should lynch him anyway.

Yeah, I want an answer from him about this. Oh, looks like we got one. Yeah, I think kyle is scummier.

[nhammen]

Ok, this has been discussed, it's clear that no one is going to change their mind.

xRECKONERx, Socrates, nhammen, Hoopla, SerialClergyman, Moai Interceptor Cannons: are any of you going to vote Monkey today?

If not, then I'm dropping Monkey and turning my attention elsewhere.

Nope. Not voting Monkey.

Couldn't be more irrelevent. If there's a cop that the blocker is blocking - they both cancel each other out. If there's no cop, then the blocker is free to try to disrupt any other PRs.

Charter, I'm not voting Monkey, although I'm pretty sure Hoopla will as any alignment.

QFT

IF Hoopla flips scum, THEN you're next up for the lynch. That's how I interpreted it. There's no way Serial's setting up a quicklynch, because then Serial has to be scum, Hoopla has to be NOT scum, and the IF/THEN argument on you dissolves into pretty little butterflies. Or do you know that Hoopla will flip scum?

No idea if Hoopla flips scum. But you forgot the possibility where both Serial and Hoopla are scum. Then it makes sense. Of course, that doesn't make sense. Serial has been attacking Hoopla all day. So there is that point.

Reck makes some good observations. My current likely scum team is Hoopla, and nhammen and Kyle

So you think I've been bussing BOTH of my partners? Your logic is amazing!

[nhammen]

I am very happy with the choice for mayor. And I would have liked Hoopla to have commented on him before Monkey got so close to lynch. Too bad. Too late. I wanted to see if Hoopla was willing to choose Kyle as his life saving wagon rather than Monkey.

[nhammen]

If you must know, I had thought of the possibility of a kyle Hoopla pair, and wanted to see if you had any reason not to switch.

[nhammen]

As long as Socrates doesn't change his mind and Nhammen keeps to his word of not voting Monkey, that last vote shouldn't materialise.

Do you know something I don't? Because there are other people that could change votes too.

a) Eh? First, you were using 'I was at L-1' defense. I told you, it meant nothing, as we were far from choosing the mayor. Then you said, there wasn't anything like that in the rules, and you were quickly proven wrong. Then you pulled out 'I don't care, I was at L-1 anyway.'

Do you honestly think he was lying about that? It looked to me that whether he was scum or town, he thought he was near lynch.

[nhammen]

Lying isn't indicative of alignment? Why would a townie feel the need to hide information and blatantly lie?

Why would scum?

[nhammen]

OK... I hope I was wrong about Monkey. Would you mind telling us about your alignment now Monkey? We would all like to know.

[nhammen]

Why do I die N1 so often? Either I'm obv town and scum kills me, or I'm scummy and there's a vig.

Good game town! Good job kerrigan!

kyle's bus had me totally convinced. I was actually thinking that his attack on monkey meant that he was the cop, so he knew monkey was lying. That was an incredible bus kyle. Until your claim, I was sure you were town.

[nhammen]

I didn't support Kerrigan because he said he didn't want to be mayor. As soon as Socrates mentioned that any pro-town player should want to be mayor themselves I realized what a benefit the Masons were. But day had already started, so I could not tell Kerrigan to support me. I was waiting quite some time for Kerrigan to realize why I was supporting myself for mayor.

[nhammen]

From our role PM: "He has the same wincondition as you do."