Mini 892 - Mayor Mafia (GAME OVER)

[SaintKerrigan]

We're obviously electing Serial. Not much discussion needed.

Why's that?

[SaintKerrigan]

*slap*

Why not discuss what we're doing with the mayor and what the best qualities are rather than go into a pretty unnecessary RVS?

I'm thinking good qualities would be:

a) Active
b) Easy to read
c) Good scumhunter
d) Good townhunter
e) Convincing.

I like this idea, so I'll follow suit.

a. Yeah, I'm fairly active.
b. I haven't received any complaints about not being readable, so I'll take that as a good sign.
c. Hmm, I tend to be all over the board at times, so I wouldn't stake my life on my scumhunting skills.
d. Same goes for townhunting skills.
e. Well, the one time I had to be convincing, I got lynched. So, yeah.

Basically, I wouldn't nominate me for mayor. At the same time, I'm not yet sure who to nominate either. The only person here that I've played with before is Socrates, and he just nominated himself. I've got a knee-jerk reaction to that kind of thing. Plus, he hasn't kissed any babies.

In other news, I agree with Hoopla's implied idea that we should lynch all politicians. Let's make the world a better place for everyone!

[SaintKerrigan]

Why don't you like that I nominated myself, and what problems do you have with me saying it is pro-town for a member of the town to try and become mayor?

It's more related to my feeling that people that nominate themselves shouldn't get the role. But since a lot of people are doing it, I might have to reconsider that stance. I also don't recall myself stating that I had any problems with a member of the town trying to become the mayor. I'm not sure how you inferred that.

@ MOI: I'd kinda like to hear why one post makes me vote-worthy, too.

@ Hoopla: All jokes aside, I don't really get what you're saying about lynching the mayor on Day 1.

[SaintKerrigan]

Before we get to the main dish, here's a question for you. Do you want to be mayor or not? I'll only accept 'yes' or 'no' as the answer to this question.

I believe I have already stated my opinion on that matter. But just so that it's clear, the answer is "no."

[SaintKerrigan]

Er, the quote tag should read "MIC" instead of "MOI."

[SaintKerrigan]

Oh? Not the reply I was expecting. I basically read your post 66 as 'I kinda want to be mayor, but if I nominate myself people might see me as scummy so I'll just imply it'. The whole post just struck me as very dishonest and subtly contradictory of itself. If you don't want to be mayor, why did you fill out Serial's mayoral qualities thing?

I believe I stated quite clearly that I didn't want to be mayor in Post 66.

Basically, I wouldn't nominate me for mayor.

How exactly did you interpret that post to be an implied bid for mayor when I clearly stated that I did not want the candidacy? As for why I answered SC's questionnaire, I thought it was a good idea, so I went along with it. In case you didn't notice, the answers to the questionnaire (specifically the answers to questions 3-5) lent credence to why I stated I

wouldn't

want to be nominated for mayor. Given my scattershot scumhunting skills, I'm not the person you want to give a double vote to.

Have I made myself entirely clear?

[SaintKerrigan]

Ummmm, how are townies supposed to actively try and become mayor without nominating themselves? Also, you haven't explained why it is Bad for a player to sell themselves anyway.

You are doing what monkey and cathart were doing. Throwing a blanket suspicion on people for doing an action with no real justification for why it is bad.

I stated earlier that it was a knee-jerk reaction. Maybe I got a little carried away with the theme "those that want power should not have it." You're right, though, that people that want to become mayor will likely nominate themselves. That was bad judgment on my part.

Hoopla's idea seems interesting, but ultimately I think it's best that we should first determine our best potential lynch candidates, and then generate mayor nominees from the people that we consider town.

@ MIC: Okay, consider argument dropped. Right now, I'm a little wary of Monkey. He just seemed to jump straight on to the Post 66 argument, blindly agreeing with what you said.

I haven't heard much out of DDD, and of the three game-official posts he's made, the first feels like a joke post (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on that), the second is an unexplained nomination for Socrates and an RVS vote on me (if that actually was randomly-induced), and then in the third post he simply says he shows support for Hoopla's idea. It's setting off my scumdar a bit, but I don't feel he's vote-worthy yet. I would appreciate it if he explained his Socrates nomination, though.

[SaintKerrigan]

DDD, why are you voting for Kerrigan?

Didn't like him following SC's silly little mayoral candidate test, don't like him not wanting to be mayor, don't like his suspicions of me.

So you're saying that your vote wasn't random, then? Why don't you like the fact that I don't want to be mayor, and why don't you like my suspicions of you?

The way he said "I wouldn't vote for me, but..." seems like a disclaimer in case people might want to vote for him.

I assume the part in quotation marks was paraphrased, right? Because what I actually said and you make me out to say are two entirely different things. How difficult is it to understand the sentence "Basically, I wouldn't nominate me for mayor." As I already explained to MIC, I answered Serial's questionnaire because:

A: I thought it was a good idea.
B: I used it to highlight why exactly I shouldn't be a mayoral candidate.

Do you get it now? I don't want to be the mayor, and I never wanted to be the mayor.

@ MIC: See above.

@ Kyle99: You state in your post that you don't know whether you want to vote MonkeyMan, but then change your mind

within the same post

and vote the guy? Explain yourself, please.

[SaintKerrigan]

I get that you're saying it. I'm not sure I believe you.

Very well. I think I've said all that can be said on that matter, anyway.

[SaintKerrigan]

Well, looks like I can't nail you(monkeyman576) to a cross due to a technicality (not talking about my catch up post), but I'm still really sure you're scum.

I was town.

Monkey, if you're going to try and use ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE arguments such as this, at least put a little effort in to it. That was referring to Elvis, WHO WAS SCUM. Really don't know why you'd try this, even if you had your facts straight, it's astronomically scummy.

I changed my vote too soon. Apologies. Anyone not voting Monkey, please explain why.

unvote, vote Monkey

Whoa! I just went back and read the segment you're talking about, and I think you may be right, Charter. At the very least, I can't think of a town reason why Monkey would do what he just did.

Vote: MonkeyMan576.

I advise everyone to go back and read the game Charter and I are talking about. Mini 848, Post #456. Go read the post preceding that (from Elvis_Knits), and then the post preceding that (from MM), and tell me that Charter's Post #456 is actually referring to MM.

[SaintKerrigan]

@ nhammen: Personally, I would rely slightly less on what MD suggests you should do, and forge your own ideas on what you should do. For instance, in my first mafia game scum claimed cop on Day 1, and we still ended up lynching her (largely because she was very scummy). I'm not currently inclined to believe MM's cop claim, and unless someone does something scummier than what Charter and I have pointed out (re: Post #222) or the point is sufficiently disproved, I think I'll keep my vote on him.

What's important is that you do what

you

think is right, not necessarily what others say you should do.

[SaintKerrigan]

@ MonkeyMan576: So, you mean to say that you didn't read the bottom of every single one of MichelSableheart's vote/support counts (except the first), as well as his response to MIC's question regarding this exact mechanic? I find this difficult to believe.

[SaintKerrigan]

Antiprod -- sorry for not contributing, real life is hitting me. I'll try and get up a substantive post ASAP.

[SaintKerrigan]

@ Hoopla: So, if you are still advocating the "lynch the mayor" strategy, why aren't you supporting Charter?

[SaintKerrigan]

I think Monkey is still scummy, and cop claim or no I wouldn't mind lynching him today. However, I do think the idea to save him for tomorrow (as it were) makes sense, but I'm going to need another person that I think is scummy enough to vote for. Right now, Hoopla is beginning to fill that position, but I'm going to need to review her posts more before I come to a voting conclusion. I do have a question to her that I would like answered, though.

I'm not sure about everyone else yet, my brain is killing me right now...

[SaintKerrigan]

*facepalm*

Hate to break it to you folks, but neither Hoop nor MM are the lynches for today. kylelynch gogogo

Why do you want to lynch Kyle?

[SaintKerrigan]

Antiprod. I've been in the middle of catching up with another game, but I'll try to get out a content post tomorrow.

[SaintKerrigan]

@ xReck: I believe I asked you this earlier: why do you want to lynch Kyle?

[SaintKerrigan]

SaintKerrigan, You have twice asked Reckoner why Kyle is scummy, but you have neither asked me why nor have you presented your own perspective on his play.

Sorry about not answering this earlier. The reason I've been asking primarily xReckonerx about his Kyle vote is because I don't recall seeing a vocally-stated reason (or if there was one it didn't stick out to me), so I've been inquiring xReck in order to try and see what he considers Kyle scummy for.

The reason for me not asking you this same question, Socrates, is because you've been fairly clear on why you're voting Kyle. Thus, no explanation is required.

As for my opinion on Kyle...my general impression of him has been newb town so far, but it's been awhile since I've felt fully on top of this game, so that might not be an accurate read. I still owe everyone a reread, and once it's done, I'll post my thoughts.

@ Monkey: Well, you're probably going to draw a ton of fire tomorrow (pending you don't get lynched today or NKed) no matter what investigative result you give us. So if you are who you claim you are, just tell the truth.

[SaintKerrigan]

Unvote: MonkeyMan576. Vote: xRECKONERx.

[SaintKerrigan]

xReck, WHY ARE YOU VOTING FOR KYLE? STOP DODGING THE QUESTION ALREADY!!!

(Sorry for the all caps, but I'm frustrated that you haven't answered this question yet even though I've asked it multiple times.)

[SaintKerrigan]

Unvote: xRECKONERx.

Thanks, xReck. I feel much better now.

[SaintKerrigan]

@ SC: Chill, dude. I voted xReck to try and provoke a response to my question. When I got an answer I unvoted, and didn't feel the need to revote yet. If that so terribly concerns you, though, I'll have a vote out by the end of this post.

xReck did bring up some interesting points regarding Kyle99, but I don't feel that Kyle is the right lynch today. I have people who I think are scummier.

My top two suspects are MonkeyMan and Hoopla.

Hoopla: I went back through ISO, and I found a few things that stood out to me:

- Claimed in her 13th post that she didn't think MonkeyMan was a good lynch because he was more likely to claim cop as cop, versus claim cop as scum. However, she doesn't unvote him in that post.

- After being met with much disapproval, she abandons the lynch-the-mayor strategy, yet doesn't seem interested in trying to elect a town mayor.

- She votes Monkey out of "self-preservation." Since when are town players so worried about keeping themselves alive over doing actual scumhunting?

MonkeyMan: Well, I still think the misrepresentation back in [url=http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 90#1996090]Post #184[/i] is scummy, and I don't like his cop claim. He also voted for Hoopla primarily out of self-preservation, over doing real scumhunting.

All in all, cop claim or no, I think Monkeyman needs to go (hey, that rhymed).

Vote: MonkeyMan576.

Time to claim.

Oh wait...you already did...

[SaintKerrigan]

Oh god, he's already drunk with power...

[SaintKerrigan]

Oh god, he's already drunk with power...

I still have a lot to say and ending the day before people have finished getting their thoughts out is anti town. This is especially important for the mayor role as it will undoubtedly be an occupation with a high death rate. Going forward, the town should always make sure that the mayor puts out as complete and detailed a post wrapping up their perspective on the game before going to night.

You do realize that my post was a joke, right?

[SaintKerrigan]

Unvote: MonkeyMan576. Vote: Hoopla.

Who said we were?

I also just realized how heavily Hoopla is appealing to emotion, what with saying she screwed it up for the town and such things.

[SaintKerrigan]

If I had more influence in the town, I'd probably still lynch Monkeyman, or even someone like kyle.

So you're no longer voting MonkeyMan solely out of self-preservation?

Unvote: MonkeyMan576. Vote: Hoopla.

Who said we were?

I also just realized how heavily Hoopla is appealing to emotion, what with saying she screwed it up for the town and such things.

Why are you only now catching/commenting on dated material? It looks as if you're trying to find an excuse to get on my wagon and/or get off Monkeyman's.

First off, just because I didn't catch something the first time around doesn't mean it's not a valid source of evidence. Second, your meta lie is worse than MonkeyMan's, which was the deciding factor in switching my vote. Third, this isn't all the issues that I have with you. Look up Post #559.

[SaintKerrigan]

If MM will flip scum, then Kerrigan is very likely to be his partner. Bus at first, and then hop on the alternate wagon when the buddy is in serious lynch danger.

Monkeyman needs to die by the end of this page

QFT.

Hello? I put him at L-1 before I switched to Hoopla. How is this avoiding my "buddy's" serious lynch danger?

[SaintKerrigan]

So...why did you feel that you needed to end the day, Socrates?

[SaintKerrigan]

@ Charter: Why do the other mason/masons need to claim? Why is Reck scum?

[SaintKerrigan]

They will be confirmed town. The reason for it is so if we have another mason die, a scumbag can't try and claim to be a third mason (if the group originally just had two).

Okay. I'm the final mason.

The first part of MIC's statement quoted by Socrates feels weird. I don't see how it connects with the rest of the paragraphs in that statement. The third part of that statement is also off, considering the second paragraph argues how scummy Hoopla is, and then for his closing remark, he states the people on the Hoopla wagon would've been willing to jump onto Kyle. I mean, how did this deduction come about?

I don't like how MIC tried to spin my "don't want to be mayor" remark into a case for my scumhood, but what bothers me more about that is how quickly MonkeyMan agreed with it and voted me. I'll have to ISO MIC, but right now I'd give him my pick as the second scum.

[SaintKerrigan]

Hoopla could possibly be an SK. She's not playing like she's town, in my opinion, but if she were scum I would've expected her to jump off the MonkeyMan wagon and onto Kyle; thus, an SK.

Vote: Hoopla.

@ DDD: Why is Cathart a town read?

[SaintKerrigan]

Hoopla: I went back through ISO, and I found a few things that stood out to me:

- Claimed in her 13th post that she didn't think MonkeyMan was a good lynch because he was more likely to claim cop as cop, versus claim cop as scum. However, she doesn't unvote him in that post.

- After being met with much disapproval, she abandons the lynch-the-mayor strategy, yet doesn't seem interested in trying to elect a town mayor.

- She votes Monkey out of "self-preservation." Since when are town players so worried about keeping themselves alive over doing actual scumhunting?

I also just realized how heavily Hoopla is appealing to emotion, what with saying she screwed it up for the town and such things.

Hoopla could possibly be an SK. She's not playing like she's town, in my opinion, but if she were scum I would've expected her to jump off the MonkeyMan wagon and onto Kyle; thus, an SK.

Vote: Hoopla.

Since Hoopla hasn't been inclined to answer my case against her, I decided to put it all together in one nice little post and see if she'll answer it. I've also got a few more questions for her:

- Why are you not paying attention to things in this game (I.E. the fact that I claimed mason)?
- Was your claim that you never fakeclaimed as scum a joke or not?
- Why have you declined to try and scumhunt at the beginning of Day 2 (besides your feeble attempt to put suspicion on me)?

[SaintKerrigan]

Well either way, I think she's scum.

[SaintKerrigan]

@ Kyle: Do you think we have a Vigilante then instead of a Serial Killer?

[SaintKerrigan]

So then why do you think we have 3 scum + 1 Serial Killer? That seems a bit overpowered against the town, in my opinion, having two anti-town killing roles, as well as a roleblocker. I think we either have 3 scum + Town Vigilante or 2 scum + 1 Serial Killer.

[SaintKerrigan]

2) Yes. I thought that was pretty obvious, considering half the players here were in Commie Mafia.

Well, I can't always tell what's a joke and what's not. But that is more my problem than yours.

3) I haven't declined. I never said 'HEY NOT GONNA BOTHER DOING ANYTHING TODAY'. I understand it looks this way though.

I phrased the question wrong. It should've been "why haven't you tried to scumhunt today?" Either way, I still find it suspicious.

Do you have other questions for me?

Why didn't you bother to come up with a rebuttal to the case that I posted in the exact same quote you got my questions from?

[SaintKerrigan]

Wait, WTF, that was the hammer!

...not that I don't think Hoopla is scum, but seriously!

I'm very suspicious of xReck now, and of Kyle to a slightly lesser degree.

[SaintKerrigan]

I was still waiting to see if she would give a rebuttal to my case. I thought she was scummy, but I wasn't quite ready for the full lynch yet. Bah. Nothing I can do about it now.

Also, I'm naturally suspicious of quickhammers, and xReck's vote looks scummy as hell.

[SaintKerrigan]

@ Kyle99: That's not necessarily true. If I remember correctly, if someone kills the person a bodyguard is protecting, the bodyguard dies instead. So, xReck could've been protecting someone else who got shot. (In all likelihood, it was me, since I seriously expected to die overnight as a confirmed townie.)

Well, I didn't really want to be the mayor, I'm not that good of a scumhunter. But seeing as I'm it now, I'll try and do my best. My current top pick for scum is Kyle99, followed by DDD and MOI.

[SaintKerrigan]

Kyle99: xReck's top pick for scum at the end of Day 1 and at the beginning of Day 2, plus the early hammer on Hoopla.

DDD: For general lurking.

MIC: Coming up with the crap reason to vote me, and then having Monkey going along with it.

Before people start getting up in a riot about showing up here, let me just say this is without having gone back to review anyone yet. As mayor, I plan to go back and reread everyone to get a better idea of who I want to vote for.

[SaintKerrigan]

@ Charter: You aren't suspicious of Kyle?

[SaintKerrigan]

Addendum: There's still the possibility of a 3-man scumteam + a vigilante. In that case, we can't really afford to mislynch today. So, no quickhammers, and let's try to get this right.

[SaintKerrigan]

I would like for everyone to do a massclaim, starting with Kyle, and going Popcorn style.

[SaintKerrigan]

I would like for everyone to do a massclaim, starting with Kyle, and going Popcorn style.

I claim tracker.

N1 Choice = Hoopla; Result = No Target
N2 Choice = MOI; Result = SaintKerrigan

@MOI: Please claim

Bull****. If you were the tracker, you wouldn't have hammered Hoopla yesterday because you would've know she wasn't either Mafia or SK. Ladies and gentlemen, we have a definite scum. As soon as the massclaim is done, I'm voting him.

@ Everyone: Please do not vote for Kyle or anyone else until the massclaim is done. MIC, you're next.

[SaintKerrigan]

I would like for everyone to do a massclaim, starting with Kyle, and going Popcorn style.

I claim tracker.

N1 Choice = Hoopla; Result = No Target
N2 Choice = MOI; Result = SaintKerrigan

@MOI: Please claim

Bull****. If you were the tracker, you wouldn't have hammered Hoopla yesterday because you would've know she wasn't either Mafia or SK. Ladies and gentlemen, we have a definite scum. As soon as the massclaim is done, I'm voting him.

@ Everyone: Please do not vote for Kyle or anyone else until the massclaim is done. MIC, you're next.

Actually, no, that makes no sense, because I was almost sure that Hoopla was scum but she had a lot more pressure on her so I thought that her scum-partner made the kill.

...except when you made the hammer vote you declared that you thought Hoopla was the SK. Nice try at retconning, but fail.

[SaintKerrigan]

Vote: Kyle.

That seems like an awful lot of vanilla, especially since we have a roleblocker and only one role it needs to block. Hmm.

[SaintKerrigan]

Argh, I hate being in this position...well, obviously I need to reread both of you in ISO (again) and see what I come up with. Based on my last read-through, I thought MIC had a high probability of being scum and that Cathart could be a possible SK. With a town vigilante dead, though, it would seem more likely that we have a third mafia member versus an SK, but who knows?

I can't do the ISO right now because I'm on vacation with a friend (and we're attending a party this afternoon), but I do have one question to ask of MIC: Why did you not agree with the MonkeyMan lynch?

[SaintKerrigan]

MIC, why is Cathart scum?
Cathart, why is MIC scum?

Neither of you can use the answer "because SK is town so that means the other one is scum." I want to see you guys make some genuine cases.

[SaintKerrigan]

Finished my ISO reads. Not gonna post my notes though until I see those cases from both of you. Deadline's in less than a week, boys, so let's get busy.

[SaintKerrigan]

Okay, thanks for posting those cases. As promised, I'll post my notes.

MIC

- Attacks me with the crappy "don't want to be mayor = scummy" case.
- Goes after me for showing why I don't want to be mayor, but does not extend the same argument to SerialClergyman, who was doing a similar thing.
- Claimed MonkeyMan wasn't scum, and defended him for a large portion of the game.
- "This is funny because my arguments make near-perfect sense to me and I seem to be having a hard time getting you to understand. You see when I write all these words for you, my expected reaction is 'oh, I see', so it confuses me when you continually come up with these questions." Crap argument, if someone is asking questions about your argument, it obviously does not make sense to them.

Col. Cathart

- Early on finds both Kyle99 and MonkeyMan576 neutral.
- Argues in his vote for MM that most of his posts are bullshit, when earlier he stated that he was a neutral read, which indicates that he didn't find most of his posts bullshit.
- Says he couldn't see both MM and xReck to be scum, yet lists both of them as scum in a reads list.
- Kyle's fakeclaim as tracker had MIC targeting me. Could be evidence that MIC is protown, and thus meaning Cathart is scum.
- Cathart has lurked hard for most of this game.

The second-to-last tell in Cathart's column is very strong to me. Also, the more I've looked at MIC, the more town he's seemed to me, despite the fact that he avoided the Monkey wagon for most of the game.

I'll give you guys another chance to explain yourselves, but right now I'm leaning Cathart.

[SaintKerrigan]

(Sigh) Here goes nothing.

Vote: Col. Cathart.

[SaintKerrigan]

Good job, Cathart. If not for the fact that you left alive the person who Kyle "tracked" to me I probably would've voted MIC. You played well in this one, despite the lurking.

And yes, kudos to Michel for modding this game. It's the first one I've been involved in that needed no replacements.

[SaintKerrigan]

Good job, Cathart. If not for the fact that you left alive the person who Kyle "tracked" to me I probably would've voted MIC. You played well in this one, despite the lurking.

Well, I seriously thought, we have a Serial Killer on the board, so I took priority in taking him down. You couldn't be one, Charter's behavior in the twilight of D3 eliminated him as well, and MIC wouldn't kill Reckoner, I'm sure of it. That left DDD. In retrospect, I should have probably off you instead of Danny, since he had a pretty strong pro-town stance on me.

Was it you guys that tried to kill me off N2 and xReck protected me?

[SaintKerrigan]

So...town won?

Ya, looks that way.

[SaintKerrigan]

@ Socrates: I really did bring too much of the axiom "he who wants power should not have it" into my thought process on the political scumtell. I don't even know why, it's not applicable here...

[SaintKerrigan]

Actually, the only reason I didn't try to get nhammen the mayority was because at the time it wasn't clear that the masons were guaranteed town, and I wasn't sure if nhammen was town or not. Thus, my extreme indecision regarding who should be mayor. I don't think I supported anyone's candidacy the entire game.

[SaintKerrigan]

nhammen, read Post #840. It explains why I didn't nominate you. Had I known the masons were guaranteed protown, I definitely would've been supporting you.

[SaintKerrigan]

@ MichelSableheart: I have a minor suggestion. Either make it known to the masons right away that they are guaranteed protown, or simply leave it up in the air as WIFOM. It would've changed my strategy drastically Day 1 had I known that both masons were protown.

[SaintKerrigan]

Oh. You're right, that was pretty clear. I somehow missed it/misinterpreted it.