Mini 892 - Mayor Mafia (GAME OVER)

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

We're obviously electing Serial. Not much discussion needed.

We are?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Well, I've already identified one townie.

But I haven't even said anything yet.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

oh and...

Vote: SaintKerrigan

Support: Socrates

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I have yet to see an actual reason why Hoopla's idea is unsound, I see a general discomfort with it because it appears to be contrarian logic, but on actual reasoning it appears as sound if not more sound than anything else.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD, how do you feel about Monkey, the people on his wagon, and MIC, who jumped off the wagon?

I think many uncomplimentary things about Monkey frankly from my experience with him I don't know if he's acting scummy now or if his view of the game is really so pathetically simple. The people on his wagon excluding Rec are all people I've played with and I trust their ability if not their intent and I have to assume they've considered their meta of Monkey and still think he's suspicious. MIC's behavior on this likely rules out scum-MIC, town-Monkey but everything else is still in play.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD, why are you voting for Kerrigan?

Didn't like him following SC's silly little mayoral candidate test, don't like him not wanting to be mayor, don't like his suspicions of me.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD, how do you feel about Monkey, the people on his wagon, and MIC, who jumped off the wagon?

I think many uncomplimentary things about Monkey frankly from my experience with him I don't know if he's acting scummy now or if his view of the game is really so pathetically simple. The people on his wagon excluding Rec are all people I've played with and I trust their ability if not their intent and I have to assume they've considered their meta of Monkey and still think he's suspicious. MIC's behavior on this likely rules out scum-MIC, town-Monkey but everything else is still in play.

I don't know what's simple about my game philosophy, and this seems like a rather poor reason to vote for someone.

Good thing I didn't vote for you then, huh, clownshoes?

Oh and charter, Reckoner has in fact been pretty damn useless the entire game, only question comes from the aggresiveness of lobbying to be mayor but I don't know him well enough to know if that's anything unusual for him. His latest vote sucks as well. Lots not to like.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Was in Pittsburgh most of the last two days, will re-read early tomorrow and have thoughts.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Ugh, I'd lynch kyle, reckoner,

DDD

, MM, nhammen and Socrates atm. I'm officially a convert of Hoopla's mayor plan.

Why?

~~~

Anywho, I'm extremely skeptical of Monkey's claim because of the way it just seemed to flash out of nowhere. Elsewhere, Hoopla directed the comment at charter, but MIC's last post pinged very hard on my scumdar as well. I guess the question is; is MIC or someone else scummy enough that putting off a Monkey lynch is actually beneficial in favor of them actually beneficial?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Latest back and forth seals the deal in regards to lynching Monkey, I really can't view such willful negligence as anything other than scummy as hell.

We need to either adopt Hoopla's plan or select someone else to be mayor and then get with the lynching.

Unsupport; Support: Monkeyman

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Wait What?? How does the latest back and forth seal anything?

You mean the part where he said he thought he was going to be lynched where basically admitted to not reading the thread and then changing that to “L-1 always warrants a claim” which is also wrong.

And why so fast to push for following Hoopla's plan?

I already said it made sense to me despite it being contrarian logic, but till now everyone has been wishy-washy on it. Well I think it’s time to make a decision whether or not we move forward with it and I’m now in the books as supporting it.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD is on that list primarily because he's been close to a non-participant and was very prickly when questioned earlier, even more so than usual. In fact, having a quick glance over your play, you've managed to point out you have a bad history with monkey, and appreciate that he can look scummy while being town. You voted Kerrigan without any follow up or stated reasoning and had a go at Reckoner for not contributing much and having poor votes (hypocrasy much?), but that's essentially all your suspicions.

And now you're back on Monkey pushing the claimed cop wagon based on policy. Lots to be wary of with DDD's play.

What nonsense.

A) I'm pricklier than usual? So you've played with me and I was prickly as town. So when I'm prickly again (only more so) it suddenly becomes scummy? How convenient.

B) Now I know you've only seen me as a late game replacement so you aren't aware of the fact that I'm a slow starter, but well that's the truth of the matter. I can easily self-meta that (or you can all else being equal I favor being lazy).

C) You're trying to hit me for my Kerrigan vote which was my first/second post of the game. You're telling me that a vote at that point wouldn't have stated reasons? The horror.

D) You're falling into the same trap charter mentioned earlier that you're afraid to lynch a power role claim on day one which automatically gives scum a free pass to day two as long as they're willing to claim a power role. You're the one whose being unreasonable by being unwilling to consider it; I've considered it and I believe Monkey's claim to be bogus and thus I'm going to act on my instincts.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Yep, it's worse than usual, and it's directed at people who suspect you. You have been next to useless today and have an attitude that doesn't match that contribution. Normally when you are prickly it's to discourage argument and force your opinion. When you haven't contributed much and don't have much to go on or much of a theory about the game, I don't get why it's even more forceful than usual. One solid reason is that it completely discourages suspicion of you, and I'm officially calling you out for being pretty useless so far.

Wow, now I have reasons for my prickliness, kinda odd that I don't recognize that fact. And again your experience with me skews towards the later game when there are more facts available and thus it's easier to be more assertive.

But even if it was early, so what? You don't have to have a good reason for voting Kerrigan, but I'd expect you to have some reason. Was it a random vote?

Let's see it's effectively my first post since the game actually started, twelveth total post since the game started and had no listed reasons and you're just now coming to the conclusion that it was essentially a random vote? And the credit you get for your correct calls in commie mafia continues to slowly slip away.

I'm not falling into any trap. I have as scum and town both pushed and not pushed for a power role lynch after a claim.

In this particular case, I think it's worth the risk. He's there, he's claiemd, we can lynch him if need be later. Cop is a dangerous role and very powerful, no matter what results he gets (ie innocents are good too, unlike no results from docs/trackers/watchers etc). Keeping him alive is the safe option.

D1, important role, other suspects - that's not worth pushing through a lynch.

Even if you think Money is scum, I see no real harm in keeping him alive tonight.

Okay here's what you do, you check the last twenty mini normal games with town cops and report back how many of them have scum roleblockers or redirectors of some sort. If there's a significant amount lacking a blocking role then I'll move on and we'll try and play the odds that there isn't one in this game. But when there's not a significant amount it effectively reduces Monkey's role into nothing more than a vanilla townie because there is no reasonable reason not to block him and let the WIFOM ride for another day which gains the town nothing other than lynching less scummy people.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

This is all I could be bothered, it's a quick skim of the first page for completed games. I'd say it's about 50/50, maybe leaning towards no roleblocker.


872 YES
865 NO
868 NO
838 NO
831 YES
813 YES
827 NO
823 YES
835 NO
807 YES
806 NO

I said games

with

cops, I just checked the first two games on your list and neither of them have cops. Do it again and do it right.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Ah, clearly I didn't see the with cops bit.

Which is odd because that was the whole point.

However I'll be damned if you're going to respond to genuine effort you aren't prepared to do yourself like that.

I have made the quite reasonable assertion that if there is a cop, there is likely a roleblocker and thus MonkeyMan's theoretical role is no longer of any particular use. You apparently disagree, but I'm sure most would agree that your opinion is the extreme one logically but you've failed to prove any actual evidence to back your claim.

You have earnt my vote.

It's earned, not earnt.

Even if you aren't irritated by DDD, here's the cliff notes on why he's a good option.

So I should be lynched for being irritating? That doesn't appear to be the best method of finding scum.

1. Lack of scumhunting.

About your only solid point, though really countered by a decent meta read of me.

2. Playing outside of town meta (in my reads I find him to be more active and more firm when town. Here he still hasn't placed a non-random vote until after Monkey claimed, without doing more than vague reads previous to that. His activity was also decidedly low until I specifically attacked him.)

Bullshit, you're too lazy to test the cop/roleblocker hypothesis and there's no actual evidence that you've gone back and reviewed any of my games where I was an original player or where I was scum. Your meta read of me is completely based on me being a town replacement after day one which surprise surprise is an extremely limited picture of my play, but I suppose if you're trying to paint a scummy picture of me then the facts shouldn't impede your progress.

3. A few AtE-style posts, like telling me his opinion of my ability was slipping or calling monkey 'clownshoes'.

Town-tell. And just the fact that you're actually using that as a scum-tell is really weak sauce "I just read the wiki" nonsense.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Now I'll say I have read two of your games, one of which has a post that specifically details your activity in both posts per day and total characters, and both are significantly less when you play as scum.

And I specifically modified my meta because of that game. I in fact paid for doing just that in another game where I got lynched D1 by VPB who was in the first game and read my behavior as similar to the first, but of course I was town trying to close the gaps in my play.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Charmingly irrelevent.

You are the one who has been screaming meta me. You can't then turn around and say your meta has changed when I DO meta you and find a solid meta case against you.

Also - the point wasn't to point to that specific post, it was to show everyone that althought you said it was bullshit and you said I was too lazy to meta you, I had in fact done it. I couldn't possibly have gone into a game, found a specific post like that, come back and replied to you all within two minutes.

So I have in fact meta'd you, and could in fact prove it.

So you meta me based on older games instead of the newer ones which are more likely to be accurate. Cherry picking again?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Meh, not much to reply to.

I don't view AtE's as a town tell, but even if I did there's circumstances where it would fit and some where it wouldn't. Saying your opinion of me is slipping is a bizarre thing to say as town. I haven't seen you say anything else like that as town. It looks like something specifically designed to discourage and dismiss.

Decent meta reads of you point to you pushing cases and votes on D1. You haven't done that at all. And you've been vague in your scum reads, something you are certianly not known for as town.

Either way - all you are doing is saying that you are sometimes useless as town too - something I don't agree with but hardly discourages your lynch.

I won't pretend I am not irritated by your attitude this game and your reaction to my work, not fitting the request though it was. I feel that if you were genuine in wondering if something like that was the case and you were making the right or wrong choice you'd bother to do it yourself rather than get a third party to do it for you. And you forget that even if that is true, wasting the blocker's block could prove useful in and of itself.

Well at least you've convinced me that you're town since I don't think scum would go through so much trouble to get such a bad read.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

You know what's worse than parroting players? Not taking a side or commenting on it at all...

You know what's worse than that? Poverty and world hunger.

You know what's worse than that? Intergalactic hunger.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Reckoner, nhammen, and MIC, what are you thoughts on Hoopla? Town/scum? Why?

My unsolicited opinion is that the case on her started up a day too early and the points against her can easily be attributed to her LA and it would've been better to see her pick up her play naturally or if she would've tried to still coast. I also think SC's point about the joke is extra nonsensy nonsense since I made a joke too (a better one at that, why no credit to Danny?) and I know I'm town.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Where did DDD wander off to?

Well Sportscenter was just on so I was watching that.

I don't see the point in arguing with you since you've effectively dropped your case against me and since I think you're town I have no desire to try and counterstrike. And I disagree with your comment to a degree about Hoopla, if I know I only have a short amount of time it's very easy to waste that time and joke instead of playing the game seriously. But I'm not confident enough in her alignment to try and be her standard bearer. Still think Monkey is a good lynch with Kyle and Rec probably the two closest behind him.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Where did DDD wander off to?

Well Sportscenter was just on so I was watching that.

I don't see the point in arguing with you since you've effectively dropped your case against me and since I think you're town I have no desire to try and counterstrike. And I disagree with your comment to a degree about Hoopla, if I know I only have a short amount of time it's very easy to waste that time and joke instead of playing the game seriously. But I'm not confident enough in her alignment to try and be her standard bearer. Still think Monkey is a good lynch with Kyle and Rec probably the two closest behind him.

Your read on SC is based on what his view on your alignment is? This reeks of scum.

Well at least you've convinced me that you're town since I don't think scum would go through so much trouble to get such a bad read.

Yes, I know you're not actually reading the thread since you're scum but could you make it less obvious? Or at least admit to being scum so we can lynch you already?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Charter tunnels too much and deserves to die - his recent line of questioning is useless and boring, and isn't doing a good job of creating links, which I can see as its only benefit. But this linking only becomes valid once we have confirmed alignments - and because these questions barely scrape beyond the surface they won't be revisited once alignments do flip.

I'll be honest I don't understand this comment coming from Hoopla at all. It really gives me pause because parts of it are so blatantly incorrect. She somehow turns charter's tunneling into a scumtell when she's seen him do that as town at least once, probably more considering how active she is. All in all, does not compute.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

If we can't get a Hoopla wagon going, I'm voting Reck and not changing it the rest of the day.

We should be lynching Monkeyman, but whatever.

Let's get this done then.

Unvote; Vote: Monkeyman

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Just saying that Hoopla and Monkey are at L2 and Socrates is at M1.

What a useful post, I mean it wasn't like there was a vote count posted just a few posts ago or anything that anyone could clearly read. Tell me Kyle, are you afraid of posting much because I'll compare your play here with the newbie game we just got out of?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

May I ask what the harm in allowing monkey one night to try to grab a result?

You still haven’t shown that there’s a significant chance that there’s no roleblocker. As long as logic dictates that the game is “properly” balanced with a roleblocking or redirecting role in the hands of scum then Monkey’s hypothetical role now that it’s been outed is no better than vanilla.

Charter and DDD, What would it take for you to vote Kyle over Monkey?

Like charter said, convince me. There’s been a lot of loose suspicion of Kyle and I can see some of it being warranted, but other than your post it feels like no one has actually provided reasons.

Socrates - I actually believe my case against Hoopla. One thing that can be said for kyle is that he's unlikely to be scum with monkey, so therefore it's unlikely you'll get many people on the monkey wagon to lynch kyle.

I'd like to hear DDD's thoughts on kyle though.

That it is exceedingly unlikely that they’re scum together. In the game I mentioned and Socrates checked out Kyle tried to bus and it didn’t work out. Now maybe he got more subtle and tried to be early on the wagon, but I think it’s more likely that they’re independently scum. Kyle has done his absolute best to say nothing controversial recently which I don’t like at all. I’m not so tunneled that if a decent case is made that Kyle is more likely to be scum then Monkey that I won’t believe it and act upon it, I just have yet to see such a case however.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

*gives up*

We could lynch him, that would solve this problem.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Good game theory on one side, personal sanity on the other...

Well if you've gone insane will all the good game theory in the world matter because you've lost your shit and you're trying to support the ghost of Abraham Lincoln for mayor and voting for the plus sign?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Find it rather lame that others are willing to turn over their votes to a third party, way to avoid having to stand behind your own opinion.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Provided that's true, I'm thinkin Hoopla, nhammen and DDD are all decent choices. Even charter because he left a good wagon to push his old wagon (and did it in a clumsy way) but I can't read charter so *shrug*

You evidently can't read me either, btw.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I think SaintKerrigan is suspicious based on his timely unvote of Monkeyman on page 26, when it looked as if he could get away with possibly lynching me instead.

Well this really doesn't look good given Kerrigan's mason claim just a few hours before. How do you overlook that?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD, who is scum?

Everyone who isn't you, me, Cathart, and Kerrigan? Those are my town reads at least. Socrates is the most neutral of the others as I don't see anything objectionable from him, MIC probably needs a meta read but her tone reads town to me. I have no idea what to think of Hoopla and her bizarre behavior this game becuase compared how she usually plays this game is a Michael Bay disaster for her. Maybe coming out of Commie Mafia she decided she really had to mix things up, but the question is was that a general mixing up or just as scum. Unsure either way,

Hoopla, have you joined any other games besides this one since Commie Mafia and is so links plz

.

Which leaves Kyle and Rec. Kyle who has basically decided to not provide any content since the very beginning of this game or Rec who provides content except basically all of it makes me suspicious of him. I'd be fine with lynching either of them today, but not need to rush things.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

@ DDD: Why is Cathart a town read?

It'd be one hell of a power bus from him yesterday when there were plenty of chances for him to jump off for other low hanging targets as we saw other players do. Since I'm assuming he can't be scum with Monkey AND Hoopla AND Kyle there would've been at least one townie he could've switched to voting. All in all I think it's unlikely that anyone would bus that solidly when so many other opportunities presented themselves especially considering Monkey was a scum PR.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Hoopla, have you joined any other games besides this one since Commie Mafia and is so links plz

.

Hi DDD, here is a link to 863 and 865. I've also been in 869, but that isn't finished yet, but you can look there too if you want.

Thanks, unfortunately for you, your play here looks a lot more like it did in the scum game you listed than the town game.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

In what ways, DDD?

She was more glib with shorter posts in the scum game. As town it looked like she could motivate herself somewhat to actually contribute, but as scum it looked like she really didn't give a crap. In this game her posts have been shorter, glib, and it doesn't look like she gives a crap, simple.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I'm not really sure why it was decided that the options were two scum plus SK versus three scum plus Vig, it would seem to me either way that the possibility of crosskills would neccesitate a three man scum team regardless of whether we have a SK or Vig.

My possible scum board consists of MIC, Kyle, and charter. MIC is the obvious choice, she refuses to lynch Monkey and I don't think she's suspected someone who isn't town in this game (Kerrigan, Hoopla, Nhammen, minor flack on Socrates). In the newbie game that Kyle replaced into I told him that if he was going to bus his scum partner (as he tried to do in that game), he needed to do it hard he certainly did that this game, so possible application of advice? He also has been rather quiet at certain points in the game and he was really quick to finish off Hoopla. Finally, charter is back on the board because if there's anyone who would power bus Monkey through D1 he would be the one to do it. Alternatively, by the old "the guy talking about the SK is the SK" theory he might be the one responsible for the other kills.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Claim: vanilla townie.

Charter then Cathart to finish this thing off then I guess. Wasn't so sure about the idea of a mass claim, but it appears to have found us at least one scum.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Ugh, I am just worried about what if Kyle is town. I still think that MIC is scum, and kyle's claim supports that, but contradicts his play.

I don't think we should be rushing this fast.

I'm still trying to make sense of Kyle's claim. Why as scum would he claim to have tracked MIC to Kerrigan when Kerrigan is clearly alive and well? So it's not as he's pinnned a kill on her and it's not like such a claim would help flush a power role with a mass claim already happening. Doesn't make any sense.

The fact that he suggested that Hoopla might have been the SK when he knows she didn't make a kill on N1 is pretty damning against him, but the puzzle pieces just don't fit neatly.

~~~

And Kerrigan along with the bodyguard we do apparently have an unclaimed killing role, so that's at least two roles that could be blocked.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I LOVE that DDD didn't claim vig.

About the only thing I did right with the role, well that and making scum think I was the SK and getting killed. Putting me in LYLO with Cathart would've been a recipe for disaster. Seriously, big fucking apologies for how poorly my night actions ended up being.

When I died I was sure one of Hoopla or DDD was scum, because I didn't know why I was killed, then I learnt DDD was a vig and bingo it made sense

But I didn't kill you...