Mini 892 - Mayor Mafia (GAME OVER)

[charter]

We're obviously electing Serial. Not much discussion needed.

[charter]

Fine.

[charter]

Vote Monkeyman

Pretty sure he's scum after his blanket suspicion statement. Probably the first time I've ever caught a scumbag before day one.

Support Serial

Even his crackpot theories are better than everyone else's.

FOS Cathart.

[charter]

Well, I've already identified one townie.

[charter]

All people who vote others without posting their reasons are scum.

See what I did there? I laid down an unfounded accusation with no justification that lets me accuse others of being scum for no good reason.

The same thing as what Monkey did.

I don't actually believe my statement up there, and I don't believe that those who want themselves to be mayor are scummy for pretty much the exact same reason Socrates said. If you're town, the best person (in your view) to be mayor is yourself, since you know that the extra power is going towards furthering the town's agenda. I thought about pushing myself for mayor, but I have no delusions of getting anyone else's votes to be elected.

Monkey's argument for why self nominating is scummy is not the justification I would expect town to use at all (if they believed that), and it furthers the notion that Monkeyman is, indeed, trying to push suspicion onto others rather than find scum. His reason for why election results being obvious is scummy is just ridiculous.

Cathart, who are you most suspicious of right now?

MORE PEOPLE SUPPORT SERIAL! HE DOES NOT RAPE BABIES (I hope).

[charter]

Your argument was if someone nominates themselves for mayor, it increases the chance that they will use it for unscrupulous means, which I assume means increases the chance scum will abuse it.

If you were town and thought that self noming is scummy, I would have expected an argument that tries to explain why scum and not town would self nominate. Not just that people who self nominate are power hungry scum. I can't think of such an argument, but all you did was repeat your earlier generalized statement, just used more words to say it.

Also, if you're not advocating self noming, then that means, if you were town, you're increasing the chance scum will be elected, which is contradictory to your statement.

Serial, how come you're not voting Monkey? You'll lose out on a lot of town points when he flips scum.

[charter]

Now you've changing the reason you find me scummy because no one agreed with your old one. Before I was declaring the winner to be obvious that made me scummy, and now I'm reaching that makes me scummy.

The thing is, you've never explained your position, you just keep repeating that people that self nom are scummy. You've never explained why self noming makes someone more likely to be scum than town.

[charter]

Reckoner, do you think Monkey is scum? You going to jump ship if he gets another vote?

[charter]

MOI, what happened to change your mind to unvote Monkey and vote Kerrigan?

[charter]

MOI, why was Kerrigan a better vote than Monkey?

I don't plan on calming down. We have scum dancing on a bed of hot coals, no need to let the feet cool off.

[charter]

MOI, why was Kerrigan a better vote than Monkey?

It was something to do with Kerrigan's his post 66, but I want to wait until he checks into the thread again before commenting (i.e. interrogating him) on that.

I want to know your reason as soon as possible.

For the meanwhile, let me digress and turn your attention to the first half of Cathart's post 58:

vote: Reckoner

I don't trust anyone who supports himself for the mayor.

What do you think of this?

He's already retracted that.

Anyhow, who the mayor is now isn't really that important. Scum having an additional public vote on day one isn't a big deal. It will be important for them not to have it in the coming days, as it essentially makes LYLO one day sooner if the mayor is scum. All this said, Hoopla's idea of lynching the mayor is something to consider.

[charter]

Okay, so what I get is that charter

thought I was wrong to think that self-noming was bad, and then charter thought I was wrong to react to being at L-3 and that I didn't give him the exact argument he wanted(not that my argument itself was bad).

actually said was, Monkey was trying to shove suspicion under people without justifying it and then your justification didn't actually justify your claim. Charter hasn't said anything about how you reacted to votes on you.

[charter]

Serial and Hoopla, what do you think of MOI?

[charter]

Serial and Hoopla, what do you think of MOI?

Don't know why I keep thinking MOI, I mean MIC.

Kind of wish Hoopla didn't explain, since catching a scum quickhammering, but then not actually hammering, would have been pretty awesome.

MIC, still waiting on the reasons for what changed your mind from Monkey to Kerrigan.

Hoopla, what do you say about waiting to mayor until we've decided on a lynch, and then deciding whether or not to mayor the lynchee or someone else. If possible, I'd prefer mayoring someone that isn't about to die.

[charter]

- I thought Kerrigan was more scummy in the first place.
- I voted Monkey because his wagon was bigger. Bandwagons are fun and all.
- I switched to Kerrigan because Monkey's reaction was inconclusive.

Yes, I get all that. Why was Kerrigan scummier in the first place?

[charter]

does post 66 give you the impression that Kerrigan was being dishonest about wanting to be mayor?

Not at all.

Why did you only give Cathart a FoS even before he retracted anything, whilst you had Monkey pegged as '100% scum'?

Thought I'd have more time to question Cathart. Monkey's statement also looked much more like it was engineered to cast suspicion on others using 'saying election results being obvious' as a scumtell.

Really don't care who we make mayor, it's not going to be that big of deal day one, but we need to get on with lynching someone. I have no preference at this point whether it's MIC or Monkey. Monkey for reasons mentioned earlier and his following the invented logic in a Kerrigan vote. MIC for his defense of Monkey, his extremely awkward unvote of Monkey, and this push on Kerrigan, which is crap. Look like buddies to me.

re: MIC - I don't know. Lack of meta is making reads hard. My gut is giving monkeya break with his recent support of MIC. I don't know that scum would support someone defending them like that. I don't think they are scum together, that would be a ridiculous level of support for each other on D1 with that kind of heat. It's possible MIC is getting early defense of a townie on, but that's getting very speculative.

Do you think they could both be scum?

[charter]

unsupport, support Socrates

Let's elect Socrates and lynch Monkey.

[charter]

DDD, why are you voting for Kerrigan?

[charter]

What do you think of Reckoner? Town/scum?

[charter]

What about 154 is awful? Socrates's points were pretty much exactly what I was thinking. Monkey's rebuttals have all be terrible, what parts of them are you agreeing with exactly?

That post there is the first time you've said anything this game, which is why I was asking DDD what he thinks about you, since you are lacking protowness to the extreme.

[charter]

Ok, I've identified another townie.

[charter]

Oh, simul post there.

unvote, vote MOI

I think both MOI and Monkey are scum. This latest shadiness is enough to tip the scales on to a MOI lynch.

[charter]

To be clear, I think nhammen is town.

[charter]

Monkey, if you're going to try and use ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE arguments such as this, at least put a little effort in to it. That was referring to Elvis, WHO WAS SCUM. Really don't know why you'd try this, even if you had your facts straight, it's astronomically scummy.

I changed my vote too soon. Apologies. Anyone not voting Monkey, please explain why.

unvote, vote Monkey

[charter]

Also, there is really no chance that that was an honest mistake on Monkey's for fairly obvious reasons if you read the game or were in it.

[charter]

I don't really get why you don't like Socrates, Serial. You kind of start out saying you think he's suspicious, but then at the end, you don't know whether he's scum or not. If the reason is gut, that's fine, but I don't know if that's why or what the reason is.

Can we tone all this mayor theory stuff way down. It seriously is not a huge deal today. I'm quite uneasy about Hoopla, because that's all she's been doing lately, even though she recognizes this. Inundating everyone with mayor theory isn't helpful and is pretty much textbook scummy active lurking.

[charter]

I wasn't even attacking Kerrigan until Charter asked me to (it was a page 4 gut vote FFS).

Can you point this out for me? Don't remember asking you attack Kerrigan, because I'm pretty sure I never did.

How is asking people to explain why they aren't voting for the scummiest player a threat? I want to know what whoever you're voting has done that is so scummy as to overtake Monkey. I'm not sorry if my scumhunting is annoying you.

I'm not unvoting Monkey. I would be willing to if we all claimed cop or not cop and no one countered, but pushing that got me lynched recently instead of the obvscum person who claimed cop, so I'm not pushing that again.

[charter]

FOS Kyle. I could lynch him too. Has not given a single original thought the whole game. Lurks hardcore. Follows the crowd. Probably lurkerscum.

Kyle, can you give us your top three suspect list and why you suspect them.

[charter]

nhammen - After monkeyman gets to L1, he says that he's a cop. nhammen says

Shit! I can believe this.

The fact that he believes the claim of cop when he was about to be lynched when he has already acted scummy.

This is actually a really good point. Retract that FOS I had on you.

nhammen, what could he have claimed that you would not have believed, and that you would have kept your vote on him? When you voted him, you said Monkey plays scummy even as town, but that you can't allow him to get away with such behavior even if he has a habit of doing it (which is true). Why did a claim of cop make you believe he is town and not scum?

[charter]

Nhammen:

Not lynching a claimed cop or whatever day one is debatable, but in my opinion bad mafia strategy. You end up lynching someone not as scummy, and basically never lynch scum day one, all they have to do is claim a power role. And then, what if he claims a guilty tomorrow or somehow manages to get us to lynch a townie before he goes down (though I don't think me and DDD would let that happen)? What if they're a mafia cop (probably not applicable in a mini, but still) or another power role? You can't give out free passes just because someone claims a role. If someone were to overtake Monkey in scumminess, which it seems you're (nhammen) trying your hardest to do with your recent play, then that's a different story.

And it sure seemed like you believe him, because you unvoted him, but then said it might only be temporary. But now you say a claimed cop should never be lynched day one. So clearly your unvote wasn't just temporary, you have no intention of voting Monkey again. Pretty big contradiction. Also gives me pause on a Monkey lynch, since if you're scum, you would probably unvote a claimed power role if they aren't scum with you, not wanting to be on a town power role lynch. Though, if you're town this is a likely possibility as well.

I'm currently debating if these contradictions, plus a lot of theory discussion and non commitment and leaving many roads open, make you scummier than Monkey. You also make a very juicy partner with MIC, who is a common denominator in about all scumpairs I can think of right now.

I would like those supporting nhammen for mayor to please explain why.

[charter]

Don't really have time right now, antiprod.

[charter]

I'll have a proper post tomorrow.

[charter]

Either way, here's what I'm thinking at the moment. If we're not going to lynch monkey, we should assume he's town for a while. If he's not, we'll catch him later.

I don't think we should, because if you assume he's town, but he's scum, you will miss out on all the interactions his buddies are having with him.

This nhammen wagon reeks of scum tbqh

Um, you realize that Serial is the only person voting nhammen, do you not? So are you just saying Serial looks scummy or that nhammen does?

I don't think we're going to get seven votes on Monkeyman, despite his recent surge in scumminess. So, I will go to my number two suspect, Hoopla.

unvote, vote Hoopla

Rough order of people I suspect
Monkey
Hoopla
MIC/Reck
nhammen
kyle

Not really suspicious of anyone else right now.

[charter]

This nhammen wagon reeks of scum tbqh

Um, you realize that Serial is the only person voting nhammen, do you not? So are you just saying Serial looks scummy or that nhammen does?

Still looking for these answers, Reckoner.

[charter]

Ok, then who specifically reeks of scum?

[charter]

What parts about nhammen being suspicious do you not agree with?

[charter]

What parts about nhammen being suspicious do you not agree with?

Reckoner.

[charter]

Reckoner, nhammen, and MIC, what are you thoughts on Hoopla? Town/scum? Why?

[charter]

To try and undermine Serial's vote on you by contesting just one point is not going to work.

[charter]

What parts about nhammen being suspicious do you not agree with?

Reckoner.

Reck.

[charter]

I'm really not seeing any way that Reckoner isn't scum. Just saying.

[charter]

Hoopla, MIC, nhammen, what is your opinion on Reckoner? Town/scum?

[charter]

I'm really not seeing any way that Reckoner isn't scum. Just saying.

If I'm scum, what does that make nhammen?

It would make me more suspicious of nhammen.

Who are my scumbuddies?

Monkey and Hoopla.

[charter]

After that post, I seriously just went out and bought a T-shirt that says 'Hoopla is scum' and they don't do refunds, which means I'm officially all here for this lynch.

Word.

[charter]

Vote hopping if you've got reasons and follow up on them isn't a scumtell. If you just constantly pull 'I agree with soandso, vote' and barely mention that person again that's really scummy (which is nearly what Reckoner is doing and what Monkeyman is doing).

[charter]

If we can't get a Hoopla wagon going, I'm voting Reck and not changing it the rest of the day. We should be lynching Monkeyman, but whatever.

[charter]

Didn't realize there were four people voting Hoopla, thought it was just me and Serial.

[charter]

I did a little rereading, seeing if it will be possible to get seven votes on Monkeyman, and it's not going to happen if we elect Socrates. I'm willing to elect someone who will vote Monkeyman in order to ensure a Monkeyman lynch.

Of those voting Monkeyman, I'd only elect myself or DDD, and I don't think either one of us stands a realistic shot at being elected though.

I also noticed that Reckoner has said squat about Monkeyman the whole game, which looks very suspicious. I think Socrates pointed out that kyle didn't say anything about Monkeyman until after his claim, when he voted for Monkeyman, and the post of kyle's was very suspicious. I dunno, I want to see Monkeyman's flip as soon as possible, because if he does wind up being town, there's some people that look mighty suspicious (kyle for one).

[charter]

Letting Monkeyman live is one of the worst ideas I have ever seen. Has there been a single wagon he hasn't been on?

[charter]

Even better when I remember to

unvote, vote Monkey

[charter]

The Monkey wagon got its second wind. He joins every possible wagon with even more non existent reasoning than his last vote. He is too scummy to let live. I basically see it as anyone else besides him, is just a bad lynch because no one comes within miles of how scummy Monkey is.

[charter]

The Monkey wagon got its second wind. He joins every possible wagon with even more non existent reasoning than his last vote. He is too scummy to let live. I basically see it as anyone else besides him, is just a bad lynch because no one comes within miles of how scummy Monkey is.

I think I was very clear with my reasoning. If it's between me and Hoopla, obviously my choice is Hoopla. And way to misrepresent my wagon as "gaining steam" as opposed to the Hoopla wagon.

Well, instead of just quitting, you could actually put some effort in to the game for once and try and do something other than wave signs saying "lynch me, I'm scum".

Self preservation voting is fine, but the middle of day one like what you did is just scummy. Instead of trying to help the town, all you're doing is praying Hoopla is scum.

[charter]

Oops, I had a big tirade typed up but then deleted it since it wasn't very nice, that second sentence was part of it I forgot to delete. That bit was under a monkey town scenario.

[charter]

So, we can lynch Monkeyman now?

[charter]

Charter and DDD, What would it take for you to vote Kyle over Monkey?

Convince me I should. Kyle is the epitome of lurkerscum, but Monkey is just the scummiest person by miles. As of right now, I'd rather lynch Monkey, because I am going to want to lynch him every single day, so it makes sense to do it as soon as possible. I haven't been paying Kyle as much attention as I should, but continued lurking will be met with a punishment fit for the crime.

What is the hold up with electing a mayor? All the people supporting their lynch candidate, I don't think that's going to happen. You all must have identified at least one townie by now, support them so we can wrap this day up at some point.

[charter]

The mayor bit is addressed to everyone (specifically those supporting who they are voting).

[charter]

Why is Hoopla voting for Serial?

nhammen, letting Monkeyman live to "find out if we have a roleblocker" is such a horrible idea. If I was a town roleblocker, I would be blocking him in a heartbeat. If Monkeyman is scum, he's probably sending in the kill then be like "oh, I investigated the dead guy, what a shame" which, quite frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if we see tomorrow anyway.

Hoopla has pulled a giant 360, from initially thinking Monkeyman is more likely to claim cop as cop than scum, to disagreeing with lynching him day one, then self preservation voting him, to now arguing about how his role is useless and we should lynch him anyway.

So many scummy people here. I'm about at the point where I'll lynch anyone but Serial, DDD, or Socrates.

[charter]

Why we should lynch Monkeyman today and not delay it:
If he gets roleblocked, we're going to lynch him. No gain.
If he investigates the dead guy, we're going to lynch him. No gain.
If he gets an innocent, we're going to lynch him. Person get's NKed the next night. Barely any gain.
If he gets a guilty, we'll have to discuss whether we lynch him. Reasonable gain.

By letting him live, we're really just lynching someone not as scummy instead of him for a slim chance of any payoff.

[charter]

No, I mean, what is the purpose behind voting for Serial? No one else seems to be suspicious of him, and your reasons are weak and you're not trying to convince anyone else he's scum.

Serial, I'm pretty sure that Monkey will be just as scummy, regardless of who we lynch today and what they flip. I can't picture anyone flipping scum that would somehow clear Monkeyman. If he gets NK'ed, then that's about the only benefit other than him being sane and getting a guilty. I don't think it's worth chancing it, but if that's what we have to do, then that's what we have to do.

[charter]

Ok, this has been discussed, it's clear that no one is going to change their mind.

xRECKONERx, Socrates, nhammen, Hoopla, SerialClergyman, Moai Interceptor Cannons: are any of you going to vote Monkey today?

If not, then I'm dropping Monkey and turning my attention elsewhere.

[charter]

Just waiting for the Monkeyman lynch.

[charter]

Should we lynch Hoopla after that very blatant lie?

[charter]

You claimed light years early, didn't try very hard to defend yourself, and are scum.

[charter]

She just tried pulling a fakeclaim in that game most of us were in.

[charter]

You claimed light years early, didn't try very hard to defend yourself, and are scum.

Not true, not true and not true. I've defended myself very appropriately, it's just that most of the attacks against me have been entirely baseless.

Claiming when you could not possibly have been lynched, is way too early. It doesn't matter if you think the attacks on you are baseless, clearly most of the town disagrees with you.

[charter]

Hoopla, explanation for us there?

[charter]

HOOPLA, EXPLANATION

[charter]

That you have never fakeclaimed as scum.

[charter]

Umm, I was serious. You just fakeclaimed JOAT in that game.

[charter]

a) Eh? First, you were using 'I was at L-1' defense. I told you, it meant nothing, as we were far from choosing the mayor. Then you said, there wasn't anything like that in the rules, and you were quickly proven wrong. Then you pulled out 'I don't care, I was at L-1 anyway.'

Do you honestly think he was lying about that? It looked to me that whether he was scum or town, he thought he was near lynch.

Doesn't matter if he's lying about it or not, since there's really no way to prove that. The point is that he is using a cop claim as a defense, which should not save him.

Still waiting to hear what Hoopla comes up with before I pass judgment.

[charter]

Hoopla's meta lie isn't scummy. There is no benefit she gains as scum by saying that and couldn't possibly think she'd get away with it. Kerrigan is scummy for jumping on it. Monkeyman needs to die by the end of this page.

[charter]

Other mason/masons need to claim today.

That said, Reck is scum. Hoopla or MIC is the last scum. It seems we might have a SK, no real idea on who that is right now.

vote Reckoner

[charter]

They will be confirmed town. The reason for it is so if we have another mason die, a scumbag can't try and claim to be a third mason (if the group originally just had two). I suppose if the group still has two people left, then maybe they shouldn't claim. I didn't think of that.

If there's just one mason left, they need to claim today, if there's more than one, then you can claim later.

Reck is really obvscum. Says nothing about Monkeyman all day yesterday, except for 'we shouldn't lynch him today' like three times. Scummy. MIC is scummy because he defended Monkeyman a lot and all that shenanigans about Kerrigan being a better vote than Monkey, but never had a good explanation for that. Hoopla is scummy because she tried not to vote Monkeyman, but later had to.

[charter]

Kerrigan, another thing that stood out to me is how MIC claimed to be suspicious of both you and Monkey, and initially voted Monkey, then changed it for the flimsy reasoning and seemed to never look at Monkey again. Plus, he then later said that the person reviewing the setup didn't like cops, but he didn't think Monkey was scum. Didn't make any sense. Also, immediately after MIC unvoted Monkey, he started going on about how the case against him was BS, trying to undermine Serial and my votes.

I'm quite lost as to why Reckoner is still going on about Kyle. It just makes him look even more scummy.

I could see myself voting MIC over Reck, actually. Need to think about it some.

[charter]

Your reason for voting Kyle yesterday was his vote of Monkey. Monkey was scum, so how is Kyle scummy to you? I'm not seeing it. Kyle looks way more town than you.

[charter]

DDD, who is scum?

[charter]

Actually, no, my reasons for voting Kyle were not just HE FINDS MONKEY SUSPICIOUS LOL. So stop narrowing down my argument like that.

Well, what I said was your reasons for voting him yesterday was his vote of Monkey, if that's not true, then you can argue that. Aside from that, you did like one PBPA of Kyle, of which I got nothing from, and besides that, haven't given any reasons he's scummy. Can you update the reasons for us?

[charter]

Hoopla, who are you suspicious of?

[charter]

Post later, doing Christmas shopping and whatnot.

[charter]

Have a little time. 3 mafia + SK is definitely possible, as is 2 mafia + SK. I think it best to plan for three mafia, that way we don't get caught with our pants down. I agree with kyle that I don't think we have a vig, both of the kills last night don't seem like very good vig shots.

Socrates, yeah, that was a scumslip. Good catch.

unvote, vote Hoopla

I am thinking Hoopla is the SK, and Reck is mafia, so it makes more sense to lynch Hoopla first.

[charter]

Do we not have a mayor or something anymore? The votecount doesn't show Socrates as having two votes. Also, apparently Socrates decides who gets lynched if we hit a deadline, so even though I think Socrates is town, this scenario should never happen.

Anyhow, I'm not sad that the day is over. Hoopla, if you're town and you are a power role and you have useful information, it'd be great if you could post it.

[charter]

and xReck's vote looks scummy as hell.

I'll second this.

[charter]

Did you receive clarification on that or something? I think I found it in the rules (#26), but I can't make heads or tails of it. I didn't realize that was what happened at all.

[charter]

I'd wager Reckoner was protecting Kerrigan, since that would have been the best use of his role by far. Still is looking like we have a SK.

Right now, I'm thinking it's MIC for mafia and DDD for SK, but I want to reread first.

[charter]

Ok, yeah, after this, I'm thinking it's MIC and Kyle. Just gotta wait for the massclaim.

[charter]

Vanilla

Cathart is up.

[charter]

Ugh, I am just worried about what if Kyle is town. I still think that MIC is scum, and kyle's claim supports that, but contradicts his play.

I don't think we should be rushing this fast.

[charter]

Ok, so MIC is 100% confirmed mafia. SK, if you want to win, you have to kill him tonight, so chop chop.

[charter]

That obviously assumes kyle will flip town, which after this speedhammer, I am assuming.

[charter]

Damnit.

[charter]

THANK GOD!

I would have taken MIC-scum to the bank.

Good work Kerrigan, great job picking right. Glad it was you making the decision and I was dead.

Good job town, thanks for modding Michel.