Mini 892 - Mayor Mafia (GAME OVER)

[SerialClergyman]

!support hoopla's objection.

Although knowing your penchant for I'm thread secret communication, this could be a blessing in disguise.

[SerialClergyman]

*in thread

[SerialClergyman]

Might as well post this: Commie Mafia It's a game that charter, Hoopla, Cathart, Socrates, DDD and I were all involved in. So it's probably going to come up at some point and you can do 6 metas for the price of 1

charter - me having a double vote won't actually help much, knowing the support my cases usually get. Come back and talk to me when there's a quintuple vote available

Who are the scumbags who haven't confirmed? Lets get this party started..

[SerialClergyman]

Monkey? Have I played with you?

[SerialClergyman]

If we're talking political campaigns, my role in CKD's Dark Goma was an action-stealing role called 'The Toucher', where I went around touching people at night.

If that wasn't already damaging enough to my political ambitions, there was some kind of hidden mechanic where the people were touched were said to have died that night, but didn't flip and could still talk and vote, essentially going beyond the creepiness of 'The Toucher' to whatever 'Creator of undead zombies' would be.

Still, I suppose i could run on an anti-plant platform..

[SerialClergyman]

Oh, and Monkey, I've recently updated my wiki to have links to all of my completed games, you can take a quick squiz and see if you see any there, but I'm pretty sure I haven't played with you..

[SerialClergyman]

Hoopla are you RVSing? (that came close to a question I've learnt the hard way never to ask a woman.)

Why not give us your full thoughts about the mayor position?

[SerialClergyman]

*slap*

Why not discuss what we're doing with the mayor and what the best qualities are rather than go into a pretty unnecessary RVS?

I'm thinking good qualities would be:

a) Active
b) Easy to read
c) Good scumhunter
d) Good townhunter
e) Convincing.

To be honest, I have a) down pat. b) and e) I'm certainly not and c) and d) are variable and late-game centric at best, so I'd consider myself pretty mediocre as mayor. I was only half kidding in what I wrote to charter - I doubt one extra vote will be what I need to lynch scum.

Anyone else thinking of mayoral qualities/candidates?

[SerialClergyman]

The problem with Socrates' theory of all town should want to be mayor is good except that if we all sat here with supports on ourselves noone would get elected.

My list of 5 criteria were totally made up on the spot by the way - if anyone can think or different ones give us all a shout, I've never played with this mechanic before.

Monkeyman is not coming with the pressure of an early wagon at all. How experienced are you, Monkey?

Support Hoopla

[SerialClergyman]

Monkey - If you're fairly experienced, why are you so worried about an early wagon on nothing? Your reaction looked telling to me because I generally find the townie response to an early bandwagon is bemusement, especially if there's no reason to the wagon. Your reaction was genuine concern and asking about reasons for it. I'd possibly expect that from someone who is a little inexperienced, but if that's not you, then I'm suspicious.

Vote monkey

charter - I was waiting for an answer to my question.

@all - I've voted Hoopla because she's an excellent player and is solidly active. She's hard to read but not impossible and she's convincing.

I've been somewhat negative about calls for supporting myself because although I am definitely town I feel there would be better options. I disagree that any player who is defeinitely town is better than a goodp layer who is likely town. If the double vote is tunnelled on a bad case we're going to have real trouble lynching elsewhere, for example. But I gave my own assessment of my own playstyle and it's suitability to be mayor above.

The argument reminds me of getting lynched - if you were at L-1, you could argue that even if you were vanilla you should claim cop with a guilty on someone else in the town because any lynch is better than yoruself, a confirmed townie. But it doesn't play out that way in practicality, sometimes even though you are only sure about yourself, the team's success is bigger than the mistake they are about to make.

kyle - you've signed up for this game, now you're playing it. No more mention of newbieness, no more indecision. Just do your best and be honest if you're town and you'll do fine. If you keep playing the newbie card, I'll get suspicious.

[SerialClergyman]

Serial, your reason especially is a bit pathetic for someone of your apparent calibre: bemusement = town, concern = scum? What?

Err.. i'm a bit of a results over reasons guy.. hence all my talk about being unconvincing. To me, and not necessarily to everyone else I accept, the scummiest thing Money has done is gotten worried over a wagon that he thought had no basis. If you're town and have 4 votes and genuine in thinking there's no reason people are voting you, you also aren't worried about being lynched. Monkey gave me the distinct inpression he was, and was looking for someone to argue with and defend himself against. He just didn't handle the pressure like I'd expect him to.

charter = tunnel. I love the passion, I hate the closedmindedness, but he's a good enough player to drop it if there's reason to. It's not a tell either way, I think (I haven't seen charter scum that I know of).

[SerialClergyman]

Serial, right after the fourth vote on Monkey (i.e. he actually waited until there were four votes) he simply pointed out that there were four votes on him without a good reason - I don't know how you got the distinct impression that he was worried from that. If anything I find the lack of reaction more eyebrow-raising than what you're trying to push.

I disagree totally. Personally, if there's no danger of being lynched and no reasons why there's a wagon on you, there's nothign really to say.

re: MIC - I don't know. Lack of meta is making reads hard. My gut is giving monkeya break with his recent support of MIC. I don't know that scum would support someone defending them like that. I don't think they are scum together, that would be a ridiculous level of support for each other on D1 with that kind of heat. It's possible MIC is getting early defense of a townie on, but that's getting very speculative.

Sorry - that's a bit rambly. Short answer is I don't have any particularly strong strong opinions other than I think it's quite unlikely the two of them are scum together.

Socrates - I refer you back to my 'your own death is worse than any other death' point. If you die and you're town, the town definitely lose a day. So does it justify doing anythign to lynch someone else? No. Any player we pick to be mayor will most likely be town. 11/12 of people, regardless of how much they try to get themselves elected, will end up with a mayor they don't know is town. I think your point is much more shallow than it appears.

Hoopla's idea of the use of the mayor isn't bad. Creates some irritating WIFOM if we lynch scum, but can't complain. Has a sort of a defeatist attitude that I find distasteful. I'm not sure that a confirmed town giving mayorhood to someone will be any morel ikely to result in a town mayor than a genuinely elected mayor.

[SerialClergyman]

Col - I think the advantage is that the mayor will be picked of someone with a known alginment. If we mayor/lynch town, then a townie will decide who the mayor will be for D2.

[SerialClergyman]

Hoopla's idea of the use of the mayor isn't bad. Creates some irritating WIFOM if we lynch scum, but can't complain. Has a sort of a defeatist attitude that I find distasteful. I'm not sure that a confirmed town giving mayorhood to someone will be any morel ikely to result in a town mayor than a genuinely elected mayor.

[SerialClergyman]

I don't particularly think it's bad, I just think it's over elaborate for this situation. Besides, it's not a matter of finding a logical hole in it, the question is is it better for a player who gets themselves lynched on day 1 with known alinment to choose the mayor, or is it better for us as a group to do it now?

[SerialClergyman]

If the person we lynch day 1 is the mayor, they will then hand the mayor over to someone else, and since they will have flipped, we will know who the new mayor is.

[SerialClergyman]

Ebwop that last bit should be.

'we will know the alignment of the person choosing who is mayor for d2.

[SerialClergyman]

nhammen, I assume charter is so keen to push my mayorship because the last three games I've been in I've played quite well in, and had good scumreads for the most part. I'm also very active and very into the game, as he learnt when he read the dead player's quicktopic for our last game and saw how much of my hair I ripped out while watching the final day's play.

If it was anyone else I'd be utterly suspicious, but in this case I think it's an example of charter reverse tunnelling


Some thoughts:

1) Why SC doesn't like Monkey.

Essentially obvious. Originally the reaction to the wagon, which is looking less sound given his play. It's possible there's bad play not scum here, and I've certainly seen little evidence of defence for him apart from MIC.

2) Why SC doesn't like Socrates.

Oh well. I am ready to drop this. The point is this: I want to be mayor, and it is not scummy for me to say so, contrary to what multiple players in this game have said.

This looks to me like the goal of the entire bit of play. I don't have much problem with the statement itself, it's the grandiose nature of what he's said that makes me somewhat suspicious.
It is roughly equally important to get mayor for scum and town. Thus both scum and town have a reason to try to get themselves elected to the position.

However if scum refuses the mayorship, then the chances that the mayor will go to their team are greatly lessened. If a town member refuses the mayor role, the chances remain high it will end up in the hands of a townie.

So on the face of it, before WIFOM is introduced, it looks to me like scum would be more likely to want it than to not.

Now, I accept that there is town motivation to want it as well, which is why the action is not scummy. But to call people not wanting the mayorship scummy, when in fact it hurts scum more than town to be in this position, is a bizarre argument that takes a fair bit of WIFOM to even approach. (Scum want to be seen to do things that hurt scum so they refuse the mayorship to be seen to be more town).

As such, I think I'm coming ot the opinion that I don't want Socrates to be mayor. He's just made too big a deal out of his proposition. I dont' necessarily think he's scum, but he has me uneasy because of it.

Finally - what's with ignoring the meta you have on me Socrates? You know exactly how I play and you've seen me deliberately take a lynch because I thought it was the best thing for my team. You know that I have a heavy team-first attitude, so why ask me?

3) Why SC doesn't like DDD

DDD is even more abrasive than usual. He's done little to nothing to help out yet still is on a high horse. I think he's going for a untouchable town look, or it's just his time of the month. Either way, a DDD lynch would draw no tears from me at the moment.


I'm actually more and more keen about Hoopla's plan to lynch the mayor.

[SerialClergyman]

EBWOP

nhammen, I assume charter is so keen to push my mayorship because the last three games I've been in

with charter

I've played quite well in

[SerialClergyman]

Charter - i think most of socrates' play so far, including his suspicions on who is scum, stem from the assumption that town should want to be mayor.

I think this is at the least a flawed piece of reasoning as outlined above, scum have even more reason to want it.

So the question is whether he is doing this as justification for his own hard push for the job, or if he is genuine but wrong.

I don't know at the moment but I'm far from comfortable giving him the major role.

[SerialClergyman]

Odd claim. 4am, can't process it.

Wondering if cop is powerful enough to let monkey live even if scummy.

Don't want a counter claim from any other cop.

Ugh, sleep. For now, I'll make Spyrex hate me through the ether and

unvote

[SerialClergyman]

I agree with a lot of what charter says here.

About the only bit I disagree with is that I am not totally averse to letting him live another day or so, I tend to find that eventaully they can't keep up the role info and eventually trip up.

But in general, there is little reason to believe or support the claim. The claim itself was done in such an odd offhand way it looks dicey.

As for Nhammen, I didn't like the 'oh shit' comment and I didn't like the part above talking about the IC advice. I'm sure he's an intelligent enough lad to think past what an IC told him in his first game, and I'm sure he's able to parse the information whether it came from scum or town. The whole thing just felt a little forced.

Ugh, I'd lynch kyle, reckoner, DDD, MM, nhammen and Socrates atm. I'm officially a convert of Hoopla's mayor plan.

charter - convince me to lynch monkey in this specific circumstance?

[SerialClergyman]

Also, is Col Cath going against his town meta? I vaugely remember him being an unvote to power role claims guy..

[SerialClergyman]

Really? None of that happened in Commie Mafia (I was claiming there, and I was never voting myself

You're correct - my bad.

vote nhammen

[SerialClergyman]

I know that MIC's post is going to ping charter's scumdar on the most basic of levels. To be honest, i'mn ot sure what to think, but I suspect there's a playstyle that grates on me somewhere in there.

Either way, here's what I'm thinking at the moment. If we're not going to lynch monkey, we should assume he's town for a while. If he's not, we'll catch him later.

So if he's town, then most of the actual dicey things that MIC has done are gone too. He makes a good point - defending someone like money can't be a scum tell either way - it's buddying or defending, and at the moment if you can't theorise which one it is, it's unfair to hedge your bets and say it's a scumtell either way, because defending people, even seemingly scummy people, is not a scumtell.

So, at least for a little while, if we assume monkey town and MIC town, then the person who sticks out is nhammen to me.

[SerialClergyman]

nhammen - I think you stand out because of your reaction to the claim, a few language/theory things (who doesn't like gut votes?) and because if I'm going to leave monkey alive it makes more sense to assume he's town, and if that's the case I think MIC has a fair case for being town too, and they are by far your two biggest targets.

And I LOVE defending other players and don't consider it anti-town in the least. If you've got town reads, use them.

And there's a little bit of gut thrown in.

Reckoner's talking about the nhammen wagon is interesting. Possible town tell that he didn't check who was actually voting. It could well have seemed that there were more people voting him, with a bit of nhammen suspicion after the monkey claim and a few unvotes. I think town have less reason to be precise about things like that than scum do.

By the way, things like this:

he flips town you will be proven right?? This comment pings my scumdar

I 100% agree with. That's exactly what I meant when I said his playstyle grated with me. It remminds me very much of commie mafia.

[SerialClergyman]

I'd point out to Monkey that if you are genuine and you did choose to claim there, you need to post more than 'By the way, I'm the cop".

Flavour, thought processes, a plan for action now that you're exposed etc etc - all that stuff gives us much more to go on. Quite frankly, that post could have been made after you were lynched with exactly the same tone.

I'm not confused, I'm just not seeing many obviously town players. There's a few peopel on my no-lynch list, but just by the nature of where we are I'd be happy with heaps of lynches.

DDD is on that list primarily because he's been close to a non-participant and was very prickly when questioned earlier, even more so than usual. In fact, having a quick glance over your play, you've managed to point out you have a bad history with monkey, and appreciate that he can look scummy while being town. You voted Kerrigan without any follow up or stated reasoning and had a go at Reckoner for not contributing much and having poor votes (hypocrasy much?), but that's essentially all your suspicions.

And now you're back on Monkey pushing the claimed cop wagon based on policy. Lots to be wary of with DDD's play.

Ok, so I know it sucks when I'm all vaue so here are a summary of my concrete positions.

I am FOR Hoopla's mayoral plan.
I am AGAINST a lynch of Monkey.
I am AGAINST a lynch of MIC.
I am FOR a lynch of nhammen or DDD. There are other players I'd be happy to lynch if I need to compromise to get a wagon up.

Hoopla, are you on full internaet access now?

unsupport hoopla

[SerialClergyman]

Yep, it's worse than usual, and it's directed at people who suspect you. You have been next to useless today and have an attitude that doesn't match that contribution. Normally when you are prickly it's to discourage argument and force your opinion. When you haven't contributed much and don't have much to go on or much of a theory about the game, I don't get why it's even more forceful than usual. One solid reason is that it completely discourages suspicion of you, and I'm officially calling you out for being pretty useless so far.

You are correct that I've only seen a post D1 DDD though, meta might be on the cards. Still - it's hardly a town tell, it seems all you are saying is that you're always prickly, in which case I've still got your weak votes and general uselessness to go by.

I'm not trying to hti you for anything, I'm lookign at yoru total suspicions all game, which have been on probably 3 of the most likely to be targetted by scum (with only kyle putting his hand up for that group). But even if it was early, so what? You don't have to have a good reason for voting Kerrigan, but I'd expect you to have some reason. Was it a random vote?

I'm not falling into any trap. I have as scum and town both pushed and not pushed for a power role lynch after a claim.

In this particular case, I think it's worth the risk. He's there, he's claiemd, we can lynch him if need be later. Cop is a dangerous role and very powerful, no matter what results he gets (ie innocents are good too, unlike no results from docs/trackers/watchers etc). Keeping him alive is the safe option.

D1, important role, other suspects - that's not worth pushing through a lynch.

Even if you think Money is scum, I see no real harm in keeping him alive tonight.

[SerialClergyman]

Wow, now I have reasons for my prickliness, kinda odd that I don't recognize that fact.

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here mate.. better to have reasons for something like that than it just being you

Let's see it's effectively my first post since the game actually started, twelveth total post since the game started and had no listed reasons and you're just now coming to the conclusion that it was essentially a random vote?

Then it was a bad vote. We were into content and I had already posted why an RVS was unneeded. I assumed it had something behind it because there was no need for a random vote.

And the credit you get for your correct calls in commie mafia continues to slowly slip away.

Say what? Don't give me any credit for last game. Use it for meta and move on. I'm certainly not treating you according to your reads in commie. And you've played with me since in Amished's game and weren't like this at all. I'm not understanding your play this game at all.

This is all I could be bothered, it's a quick skim of the first page for completed games. I'd say it's about 50/50, maybe leaning towards no roleblocker.


872 YES
865 NO
868 NO
838 NO
831 YES
813 YES
827 NO
823 YES
835 NO
807 YES
806 NO

[SerialClergyman]

Socrates - your two big posts were excellent.

There's parts I'll concede (the non-random nature of mayor choice) and parts I think you don't quite get fully, but overall it was an excellent dissertation of your position.

Your second post was also great, but you let a few people off the hook too early. To take me as an example, I was voting him but now am pretty strongly campaigning against his lynch. But it's worthwhile analysis nonetheless and really seems genuine to me.

I'm getting taunted into a DDD vote. Got some meta to do.

[SerialClergyman]

Ah, clearly I didn't see the with cops bit.

However I'll be damned if you're going to respond to genuine effort you aren't prepared to do yourself like that.

You have earnt my vote.

unvote nhammen, vote DDD

support DDD

Even if you aren't irritated by DDD, here's the cliff notes on why he's a good option.

1. Lack of scumhunting.
2. Playing outside of town meta (in my reads I find him to be more active and more firm when town. Here he still hasn't placed a non-random vote until after Monkey claimed, without doing more than vague reads previous to that. His activity was also decidedly low until I specifically attacked him.)
3. A few AtE-style posts, like telling me his opinion of my ability was slipping or calling monkey 'clownshoes'.

There are other bits and pieces that contribute to my vote, but there it is.

[SerialClergyman]

Look at the time of your post.

Now look at the time of this reply.

Now I'll say I have read two of your games, one of which has a post that specifically details your activity in both posts per day and total characters, and both are significantly less when you play as scum.

So yes, I did meta you.

I'm posting now to prove point, coming back for a reply.

[SerialClergyman]

Meh, not much to reply to.

I don't view AtE's as a town tell, but even if I did there's circumstances where it would fit and some where it wouldn't. Saying your opinion of me is slipping is a bizarre thing to say as town. I haven't seen you say anything else like that as town. It looks like something specifically designed to discourage and dismiss.

Decent meta reads of you point to you pushing cases and votes on D1. You haven't done that at all. And you've been vague in your scum reads, something you are certianly not known for as town.

Either way - all you are doing is saying that you are sometimes useless as town too - something I don't agree with but hardly discourages your lynch.

I won't pretend I am not irritated by your attitude this game and your reaction to my work, not fitting the request though it was. I feel that if you were genuine in wondering if something like that was the case and you were making the right or wrong choice you'd bother to do it yourself rather than get a third party to do it for you. And you forget that even if that is true, wasting the blocker's block could prove useful in and of itself.

But I was suspecting you far before being irritated by you so am not particularly concerned about it being an emotional reaction. I think there's enough substance to what I'm saying.

And in Australian English, almost all -t suffixes are equally valid as -ed endings, so my usage of the word earnt was perfectly correct. I work in captions...

[SerialClergyman]

Charmingly irrelevent.

You are the one who has been screaming meta me. You can't then turn around and say your meta has changed when I DO meta you and find a solid meta case against you.

Also - the point wasn't to point to that specific post, it was to show everyone that althought you said it was bullshit and you said I was too lazy to meta you, I had in fact done it. I couldn't possibly have gone into a game, found a specific post like that, come back and replied to you all within two minutes.

So I have in fact meta'd you, and could in fact prove it.

[SerialClergyman]

You know what's worse than parroting players? Not taking a side or commenting on it at all...

[SerialClergyman]

Accurate if not relevent

[SerialClergyman]

No TRAP SPRUNG for hoopla.

Although if you're going to hang around enough to reply to posts and crack one liners, can you find a bit of time to comment on me vs DDD?

[SerialClergyman]

What does 1/1 mean? One scum one town?

[SerialClergyman]

Any clue on which one you think is which? How strong is your read? You don't consider town/town an option?

[SerialClergyman]

I'm having trouble telling the difference between Kyle scum and kyle new. I think I have said this before though. I personally don't like lynching players like that early because they get much easier to read after some flips.

I really am seeing too much scum, although I've done a 180 on you.

[SerialClergyman]

Hoopla by the way is amongst those reads. She's been getting a pass due to poor access but these recent posts show she has time and isn't hunting. This is not just bad, it's scum meta and not town meta.

Why I questioned her so hard about me and ddd was she mentions thinking it was either scum/scum or scum/town and yet didn't vote one of us, or even question is about it. That us out and out bizarre. As I tried to push it more, she sausage was joking and dismisses the whole thing.

Grrr. Too much scumminess around.

[SerialClergyman]

I lost my post because of my stupid phone but I came to the conclusion that yes, you are. I was trying to get a read on you, you put forward an answer that looked dodgy wihout a vote accompanying it. I asked you one question about it which you answered. I then asked you more questions and only at that time did you throw your arms up and say you were joking. And I prefaced my original question by asking you to cut down on the joke posts and post some content if you had time online. So why you'd answer that with a 'joke' (where was the funny part?) is beyond me.

It is at the least EPICALLY frustrating.

[SerialClergyman]

Then maybe your beadcrumb was a joke! Yay!

/wrists.

[SerialClergyman]

MIC - why the Socrates support?

Hoopla - as if be scum this game . I was trying to play a game on your side, dammit.

[SerialClergyman]

RECKONER... et tu?

In any case, my thoughts on the current wagons:

1;

The DDD wagon is attractive due to his back-and-forth with SC

on Page 12, but something about MonkeyMan hopping on the wagon so quick makes me pump the brakes. I still wouldn't be opposed to a DDD lynch, though.

So who reeks of scum?

Mostly SC,

though I can't decide if SC just picked up on a good townie to cast suspicion on, THEN other people agreed... or if he's the townie trying to scumhunt, and scum is just hopping in with the whole "Yeah! I'd lynch nhammen too!" bit. Either way, I think the suspicion of nhammen is kinda bullshit tbqh

*facepalm*

DDD's not going to get up, Hoopla it is.

unvote DDD, vote Hoopla

unsupport DDD, support Hoopla

[SerialClergyman]

Socrates - if you're up for a Hoopla wagon, get it done.. where's your slow to appear vote?

[SerialClergyman]

YAY for internets.

1) Lack of hunting
2) Lack of content
3) Scummy joking/lying yesterday.
4) No fire for finding scum.
5)

All

Most of the above fitting scum meta and not town meta.

Why shouldn't you be wagoned? Who should be?

[SerialClergyman]

2 and 2, Hoopla - 1 played, 1 read through properly, and 1 each skimmed.

This is part of my problem with you.

[SerialClergyman]

It's more insurance, rather than meta.

So I find someone who isn't scumhunting. This is bad, and I call them on it, and the reponse, inevitably, is: "Just look at all my games, I almost never scumhunt properly till later on" or something similar.

So when I make observations like the ones I've made against you (and against DDD), I actually check to see if this is usual for them. It allows me not to waste time making cases against VIs as well.

So the case isn't about meta, it's about your lack of contribution and lack of desire to catch scum. It's just also worth noting that in my experienceo f your play, this is both unusualish for town and usualish for scum.

[SerialClergyman]

Away only gave you a pass for so long.

If you have time to joke around yesterday, time to answer questions and chat, you have had time to hunt.

You have time to hunt now.

Reck - expand?

[SerialClergyman]

jokes =/= scumtell.

Saying you are too V/LA to post content but have time to hang around posting, chatting and joking = scumtell.

[SerialClergyman]

Where did DDD wander off to?

[SerialClergyman]

Fair enough.

ALthough Hoopla did have a 3-hour stretch yesterday. Just saying.

[SerialClergyman]

After that post, I seriously just went out and bought a T-shirt that says 'Hoopla is scum' and they don't do refunds, which means I'm officially all here for this lynch.

Zero scumhunting and badly-formulated reads does not a town Hoopla make. I know that she knows towncharter=tunnel, we just played a game togehter where charter tunnelled like in most games charter plays. This doesn't mean he's town, but it does mean that suspecting charter for tunnelling is like suspecting water for being wet. His questions, while possibly shallow, are at least a sign of searching for alignment, something sadly lacking from all too many players.

She attacks nhammen for 'tiptowing around the monkey issue'. This suspicion is out of place, and if Hoopla is scum this is the most likely 'toss in a scum buddy to throw them off the trail' contribution. As far as I can tell, it's just not really true at all. Far from trying to incriminate monkey, nhammen had this result:

Thank you for providing this. Unfortunately after comparing your play here to both Mafia 91 and Mafia 97, I cannot tell the difference between twon Monkey and scum Monkey. It seems like this reaching with bad arguments and refusal to back down is part of his general meta. He does this both as scum and as town.

Cherrypicking for scumtells? I think not.

And finally me - I've been accused of going after easy targets. Well, there's plenty of easy targets in this game and I think I've done more than most of specifically not going after them. I'm not in favour of either a monkey or a kyle lynch, the two most obvious easy lynches. I attacked Hoopla who could be considered easy because she had low access, but I did give her a pass for a long time, and she is a formidable player. I attacked DDD who is also a strong player and certainly is not one likely to take suspicion lying down.

Aside from that, hoopla's been given plenty of time and opportunity to both scumhunt and defend. I specifically encouraged it yesterday when I asked her what she thought of my back and forth with DDD and she gave a false answer rather than content. She's got as much time as she likes now to hunt or defend and I see little evidence of the first and poor attempts at the second.

And even if you weren't given an opportunity to defend yourself, I love trying to find scum in ways that they find hard to respond to - as anyone in Commie mafia knew, I put forward my theory of the game in such a way that there was no argument or explanation of actions required from my suspects, I just gave a group of three people and explained why I thought that 2/3 of them had to be scum. But this situation is different, and her charge of me being unreasonable for starting up a bandwagon on her is lousy.

But forgetting all the individual points - look at that as a reaction! I laid off, gave her a chance to try to hunt or do something worthwhile and she instead gives us her vague, weak reads, 2/3 of which are the sole members of the wagon on her at the moment. No questions, no fire, no town motivation.

Hoopla is scum, get her lynched.

[SerialClergyman]

You're holding me to unfair standards.

Well, two things. Firstly - I do hold everyone in the game to different standards. Because you're different players. If you performed at an empking level for the first day, I'd be suspicious, whereas if empking did, I wouldn't be. Such is life. Secondly, I never asked you to be successful, just to try. When I say fire, I mean desire to catch scum, and I don't see any.

nhammen's I agree vote someone else via process of elimination is noteworthy. If you could be on a Hoopla wagon but have a hot off the presses scum read, that's one thing. But if you could vote a hoopla wagon and only have weak scum reads and are operating by process of elimination - why not get on the hoopla wagon?

[SerialClergyman]

What do you mean, IF?

The wagon is rolling, 4 cotes and counting. Scum better hurry up and bus before the spots close up. Too many people vaugely agreeing with me and not enough votes thanks.

[SerialClergyman]

And since noone has noticed it, and I know you're the queen of hidden meanings, what's with the indigo post, hoopla?

[SerialClergyman]

Ugh. Pushing too hard? Zzz.

I wasn't sure - the rules say no codes, a purple post isn't a code. But then meh, it's a bit bizarre, even for a hoopla post.

I'll answer now.

I have a general theory question for anyone that wants to answer. What goes into your decision making when choosing your Day 1 lynch? Is it purely whoever you assess to be most scummy?

My decision making on D1 has gone through some radical overhauls to try to get it more effective. I used to suck on D1, then I used to lurk, then I used to hunt town, now I do a hybrid of a few different viewpoints. I hunt town, but if along the way I see something that might be dicey, I question it. If that questioning seems to work, I push a wagon. Then I look at the response to the wagon from the person being attacked and the town in general. But I'm always pragmatic and won't flog a dead horse if noone is seeing eye to eye.

It has been solidly effective. I'm limited in demonstrating that effectiveness, but take this for example.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12461

Wagon wagon wagon. More votes on hoopla please.

[SerialClergyman]

Sorry if my tone offended you - I like you very much and like playing with you, I just think you're scum

[SerialClergyman]

Maybe 40%? A bit higher? Not quite a coinflip, somewhere around there.

[SerialClergyman]

I had kyle as just new, but he seems worse and worse. I like Socrates line of questioning and thought kyle's response was poor. I'm worried I'm giving him a free pass. A policy lynch here is more acceptable than a monkey lynch, in my opinion.

I also thoroughly approve of asking about partners.

[SerialClergyman]

Did you read Commie Mafia after you died?

One of the biggest reasons I was able to narrow scum down to hoopla, charter or cyberbob was that I could clear Raskol by eliminating the rest of the town as a scumpartner for him.

But on a deeper level, looking at the way people vote and bandwagons that come and go is very informative. If someone is universally regarded as scummy in a serious manner, they are almost certainly not town, or else they have a ruthless scum team.

Pooky in /inv 4 is a good example of this.

[SerialClergyman]

Just realised I totally undermined my own meaning *sigh*

EBWOP: they are almost certainly not

town

scum, or else they have a ruthless scum team.

[SerialClergyman]

nhammen, while I agree in theory with your reasoning, I think in this case it's a little shallow. There are plenty of people who voted or 'agreed' with his lynch but then have been staunchly against it after the claim (again, I put myself in this category). So you'd have to be real sure that my support of his lynch was genuine.

I don't disagree with your methods, but I think that you're a fair way from clearing monkey at this point, you'd need to dig a lot further.

Either way - he's a terribad lynch.

charter - so you make a post saying if no hoopla wagon gets up you're going to leave. Then I point out to you that a Hoopla wagon is officially up. Then you accept that point, then you leave right after anyway. What's with that?

[SerialClergyman]

Self preservation voting is fine, but the middle of day one like what you did is just scummy. Instead of trying to help the town, all you're doing is praying Hoopla is scum.

That assumes he's town, no?

[SerialClergyman]

Mod - is your post saying there are 13 votes available there a typo?

[SerialClergyman]

Sorry mate, you are quite correct. My apologies.

Saint Kerrigan, why monkey over hoopla?

May I ask what the harm in allowing monkey one night to try to grab a result?

[SerialClergyman]

We don't need to lynch the guilty tomorrow either.

Moving aside the possibility of leaving both alive, we could lynch monkey tomorrow. Then if we're wrong about him, we have scum on a platter. I'd give up a day on lynching possible scum for a confirmable result or two.

[SerialClergyman]

I'm not suggesting that's a necessary course of action.

I asked what the problem with keeping him alive was. You said that he could claim a guilty and we'd have a 'second' mislynch. I'm merely pointing out that we could lynch monkey and avoid that scenario.

N1 lynch monkeycop N2 mislynch = 2 townies down + NKs
N1 mislynch N2 lynch monkey with claimed guilty = 2 townies down + NKs but WITH confirmed guilty on a player.

A cop's power is that he can find scum and confirm innocents. Him being outed doesn't reduce his power except in that he is exposed to and draws kills and blocks - both of which can only been drawn if he's not lynched.

[SerialClergyman]

Maybe a little bit. Less than directly after his claim, I think.

There's no need to take a gamble that he's scum at all. Lynching him one day earlier barely benefits us. It won't draw a kill, won't draw a block, won't stop a kill. It'll inform tomorrow's lynch, but so would any lynch whether scum or town.

[SerialClergyman]

Do you think he's scum? Do you think in an ideal world he shoudl be lynched or are you essentially playing devil's advocate for self-preservation?

[SerialClergyman]

Socrates - I actually believe my case against Hoopla. One thing that can be said for kyle is that he's unlikely to be scum with monkey, so therefore it's unlikely you'll get many people on the monkey wagon to lynch kyle.

The timing was after a claim which kyle has insisted was the reason for the vote. it's at least consistent.

I don't know - don't expect me to defend him, i just think a newbie lycnh is a wasted lynch - he's too likely ot just be bad/unconventional, in my opinion. I genuinely think Hoopla is liklier to be scum.

I'd like to hear DDD's thoughts on kyle though.

[SerialClergyman]

But if Hoopla turns out to be scum I will be annoyed that you have convinced me.

YUK. Scummy.

IF Hoopla THEN nhammen.

[SerialClergyman]

EBWOP

obviously that quote is nhammen's, not SC's.

[SerialClergyman]

You have support in the Hoopla wagon right here, mate.

Kyle is getting away with a bit because he's so obviously new to the game and to the site. However he has acted in a scummy way at times and AFAIK isn't a cop, so he's better than a monkey lynch, imo.

DDD - even if the roleblocker argument is true, doesn't it mean somethign that he's likely to draw a roleblock or kill and leave any other roles we have open?

[SerialClergyman]

You investigate dead man, you get lynched.

If a cop comes forward with innocent on him, I'm lynching him anyway, to be hoenst. 2 cops means sanity is a definite problem and I don't see there being two cops around. I think that's even a likely scenario for godfather.

[SerialClergyman]

charter - you left out the possibility of him getting NKed (significant benefit), Hoopla being scum (massive benefit), keeping him around on an innocent or guilty result (controversial) and the benefit of him drawing a block (minor benefit)

If you say the cop is only as good as a vanilla townie, then the roleblocker is only as good as a goon.

[SerialClergyman]

No, not really. Roleblocker IS making his role perfectly in this case (stopping the town aligned power role), while cop not. And that's the point.

Couldn't be more irrelevent. If there's a cop that the blocker is blocking - they both cancel each other out. If there's no cop, then the blocker is free to try to disrupt any other PRs.

Charter, I'm not voting Monkey, although I'm pretty sure Hoopla will as any alignment.

[SerialClergyman]

Unvoting without any other follow up explaining your thoughts or voting someone else is a cardinal sin.

If xrecx has just avoided your wrath, where are you at now?

[SerialClergyman]

..

It's a cardinal sin to unvote ANYONE without then talking about your thoughts or voting someone else.

Kerrigan essentially just said 'Rec, I no longer think you're scum' then sat there blowing bubbles.

[SerialClergyman]

You need to be more specific or have less typos or possibly both.

I'm taking that as you asking ME why I'm not voting KERRIGAN.

This is because I am very happy with my vote on Hoopla. I'm pointing out to Kerrigan and the town in general that that was a scummy action and I want him to actually answer my questions, but I see no reason to switch.

[SerialClergyman]

For the record, I never FOS. I think the entire process is overly dramatic and silly. But good on you for thinking that me bothering to bring a scumtell on another player to the table makes me more likely to be scum (with him? without him?)

[SerialClergyman]

Does that indicate me being scum with or without kerrigan?

Whether that's your point or not, that's what you're saying. Because he's done one thing that I don't like, compared to Hoopla's entire day which I don't like.

Why is it you haven't voted me for this event? You haven't explained why you're not willing to vote me or why I'm a less attractive vote than who you're voting etc etc - see? It's a stupid point.

[SerialClergyman]

*gives up*

[SerialClergyman]

Good game theory on one side, personal sanity on the other...

[SerialClergyman]

Even when sane I'd support the ghost of Abraham Lincoin for mayor. And I'm not even American.

[SerialClergyman]

I think gender probably needs to be updated if you're going to push that threat/bribe MIC...

[SerialClergyman]

Acceptance speech please.

[SerialClergyman]

For the most part that's an excellent post. Be careful to judge individual probabiliies when you haev more information, because when you've done all this work there's a habit of just using it as a lookup table when some reads are more solid than others.

The only thing I'd question personally is this:

If Hoopla is scum, SC is town,

and visa-versa.

Why am I scum if Hoopla is town? Or did you mean more likely to be scum?

Personally, I feel it's more likely I'm scum if monkey is scum than if Hoopla is town.

[SerialClergyman]

Also - don't discount chater as a buddy for Hoopla. There is a lot of talk about suporting the case but his actions have been flat out against a Hoopla wagon for a while, pushign heavily the counter wagon.

[SerialClergyman]

*her

[SerialClergyman]

Socrates - who is scum? Which wagon are you encouraging now you have a double vote?

[SerialClergyman]

Have you ever fake-claimed as scum before, Monkey?

Sure...have you?

Nope.

lol

[SerialClergyman]

The question is asked like that because in this case there's no benefit to scum. Hoopla has JUST PLAYED a game with about 5 of us where she obviously fakeclaimed as scum. She had no reason to expect to get away with that joke (I am 90% sure it's a joke, not a lie). So there's no scum reason or town reason to bring down the wrath of the town upon her, thus you can't determine alignment from it.

Essentially, you're saying that Hoopla is scum because she's stupid enough to think that 5 people in this game that saw her fakeclaim last game wouldn't remember, let alone that anyone would meta her years of games on this site, and would then think more highly of her. I can assure you that's exactly not what Hoopla was thinking.

That comment is a red herring, nothing more.

I'm feeling the need for a lynch. Anyone else prepared to compromise?

[SerialClergyman]

Socrates - I officially direct my vote in your direction. I tire of this situation.
Tell me where you want my vote and i shall place it there, my elected official.

[SerialClergyman]

*salutes*

[SerialClergyman]

Last thoughts? Alignment? Who's scum?

[SerialClergyman]

Provided that's true, I'm thinkin Hoopla, nhammen and DDD are all decent choices. Even charter because he left a good wagon to push his old wagon (and did it in a clumsy way) but I can't read charter so *shrug*

[SerialClergyman]

I say I can't read charter becasue almost every game i"ve played with him I've at some point thought he was likely scum and every time I've been wrong.

I've played in the same game with you twice before and guessed your alignment twice, so even if I'm wrong in this game I'm not too worried.

Plus, it's a D1 read. Charter's stuff was like in Commie Mafia, after a full game of play. You may yet convince me, but your iso this game does not.

[SerialClergyman]

I was pretty sure it was cathart at the end, but my reads were pretty shocking all game. I gave far too much credit to kyle for being new.

When I died I was sure one of Hoopla or DDD was scum, because I didn't know why I was killed, then I learnt DDD was a vig and bingo it made sense

Well played town, well played Kerrigan for making the right decision. Badluck cathart for playing a good game but having a tough lylo.

[SerialClergyman]

Wow, weird. So why did I get NKed?

[SerialClergyman]

Ah righto.