Kingdom Hearts Mafia - Game Over!

[Plum]

Vote: wolframnheart

It's been too long, my friend.

Vaya, for what reason do you vote PZ? He is pretty awesome.

[Plum]

If I told you I was scum, would you believe me?

Since Border of Touhou and Mafia I've developed a little bit of loathing for you, DeathNote. Being deliberately confusing and/or scummy doesn't help the town, so don't continue being a jerk unless you're actual scum, kthx.

Vaya: Mmmmhm.

[Plum]

Loathing? For me? Maybe you are just taking things too seriously.

Vote: Plum

Or for what you did there; if you refrain from similar counterproductive shenanigans here I'd be happy and benevolently neutral towards your playing. What you did then ticked me off for what I believe is a legit and reasonable reason, I admit. Is that understandable?

[Plum]

Vaya: Mmmmhm.

?

Your answer is typical of how most approach the usual RVS most times, but your approach (not giving even a joke reason) is slightly atypical. I was indicating that I heard you and was digesting your answer.

[Plum]

I know others who're like that . . . or who claim they're like that, at any rate. Meh.

[Plum]

OMG PZ has his Dream avatar back (yes? I am sadly only half acquainted with the graphic novels, so . . .).

[Plum]

Hold the phone a sec. Can this Ansem guy possess people in general or just Riku?

[/is not familiar with the flavor]

[Plum]

Deathnote and Zwet would both be acceptable lynches in my eyes, but frankly DisCode is so blatantly scum! For Zwet, at least, his behavior is normally this scummy. Can't really say about DN, haven't played with him enough to know.

DeathNote has been known to act extremely anti-Town, get told that, continue to do so and get practically speed-lynched on Day 1 as VT; he's a liability but the anti-Townness is a nulltell (towntell?) for hi,. DisCode I'm unfamiliar with but the vague presses for information from myself and you (Gorrad) and the Miller softclaim and refusal to fullclaim when asked make him a bigger, nastier unknown scummy factor I'd really rather not deal with. The only niggling point is Vaya's almost-insistance that he's pro-Town Miller!Riku. Again, I'm almost entirely unfamiliar with flavor so xzbvszgcvzjhcjk on that from me.

However - and I agree with Zwets and think that he comes far behind DiscCode, DN, FOILIST (first thing he does is start flavor-speculation: he deduced that there are probably townies, some of whom have powerroles, and scum, one of whom is not unlikely a Godfather. Wow, what would we do without him? - as PZ said "Random vote/flavor, flavor, flavor") - too much flavor speculation and sparring. It's Day 1. We have NO flips or much flavor. We have ONE cryptic mod-scene. We have NO way of using flavor speculation to our advantage right now except POSSIBLY in the case of DisCode and his softclaim.

For at least one reason above and beyond the standard, DisCode, now that you said you were connected to yonder shady mod scene you really really please for the love of heaven need to claim more fully.

And I have a gut scumscumscum on Vaya. Vaya, why do you have bad feelings about Gorrad? I don't dislike his bandwagoning vote so much as I dislike her response to RF when he calls her out on it. It feels wrong and . . . Vaya's offensive against RF's accusations isn't a strawman, but it frames RF's point as rediculous when it isn't by going at it from an angle RF wasn't trying to attack from. And then argues that he shouldn't have a problem with her bandwagoning because bandwagons are protown when that is

clearly

not the point RF was trying to make. It's wiggly and as a response to an accusation it frankly doesn't make me feel good. At all.

Despite the vote on me, I really don't have anything to add at this point.

WHAT THE FROOG? Do you find no one scummy? Truly? Do you think anything but random flavor-setup speculation just when it's most useless? Grrrr. I'm frustrated but it doesn't add up to a scum read, which makes it still the more frustrating.

Conclusion: The people others might consider semi-policy lynching don't give me any sort of scumread so that's out. I am irritated by Foilist but he doesn't give me a scumvibe either. Vaya does. So does DisCode, but I'm awaiting his claim. Vaya's push that DisCode is probably Town-Riku is interesting in that light but I'll burn that bridge when I cross it. Still trying to get a

full

handle on this game, but this is a start.

Vote: Vaya

[Plum]

I would like to point out that Sir Chris who has said as little (of relevance) as foilist showed up when I posted a case against him and then disappeared again. Way way way scummy.

That is all.

I apologize if I appear a bit in and out, I am used to much short day times and it is hard to adjust to such lengthy days, something I am working on.

I also realized that it looked pretty bad for me to come in right as you said that, but sadly it was nothing but coincidence, I just chose a troublesome time to log onto the website.

I'll note all the discussion about the games themselves is kinda making me distance myself from the topic, as I find it boring to see so many posts about the games and less to do with the actual game, I guess I shouldn't do that though.

you did a great job of posting lots and contenting none.

Um, yeah, but see what Fuzzylightning did above, which was scummy on a tearing-out-heir level (IiOA and his tone sounds like he's actually providing content).

So to say discussing anything with town (aside from outright saying stuff like "I think that guy is probably cop") is almost always beneficial, getting more and more thoughts out of people is always a good thing, it allows for a basis of thought.

But certain discussions at certain times can be more distracting and scum-masking and thus

are

anti-Town. Like (in this case) massive flavor musing on Day 1 (and I usually say that speculating scumteams Day 1 is a bad and counterproductive idea as well). Discussing the identity of the voice is probably not a productive Day 1 discussion. Either it's town and meant it when it said we shouldn't hunt for it or it's scum, in which case it's probably covered its tracks well enough that Day 1 speculation is, again, a distraction from helpful scumhunting. We don't even know how we'd go about hunting for it. If it's not blatantly scummy we take what it says with a little ol' grain of salt and move on.

In general I am against straight policy lynches. It's not an ironclad rule (if someone is acting only moderately scummy but is actively being very anti-Town and is known to often be a detriment to the Town [NOT THE SAME THING] I'm all for something of the sort. But there are cases where, pleasantly, you don't get a scumread on those people but don't auttolynch anyone and either they get more confirmed/it becomes apparent that they're unlikely scum later or they get lynched before LYLO depending.

Oooh, sweet, Shotty agrees with me on fuzzylightning.

I

still

don't have a scumread on Zwets, and the post that niggled wolframnhart (Off topic: don't you remember Grimmafia? I do).

Unvote; Vote: fuzzylightning

That post really rubbed me the wrong way. Lemme see how the situation develops.

[Plum]

I think DoS' Zwets vote is lame.

[Plum]

Vaya: Have you considered that if DosCode is fakeclaiming scum that the event might not be as disconnected as you postulate (i.e. he or a scumbuddy was responsible for/connected to it) and that he tied his Miller claim to the mod scene to net believability points?

[Plum]

Vaya: Have you considered that if DosCode is fakeclaiming scum that the event might not be as disconnected as you postulate (i.e. he or a scumbuddy was responsible for/connected to it) and that he tied his Miller claim to the mod scene to net believability points?

I started drowning in the deep end of the WIFOM pool right about here.

My point was that Vaya was taking a dip in said pool and advised him about the dangers lurking therein.

[Plum]

This is a stupid stupid stupid lynch. Lurking from Zwets has not been sufficiently proven to me to be a sufficiently strong scumtell to justify this inanity. I mean it. In all this 26 page morass all we have to show for ourselves is a lynch which is somewhere between policy and insufficiently proven meta. Please, shoot me now. We have fuzzylightning, the shameless IioA trying to pass of what he's doing as actual content, we have saberwolf shamelessly hitching onto the bandwagon while trying to distance himself from being part of the actual consequences . . . I don't know exactly what to say except that I think this is neither an optimal lynch from the info-gaining side nor an optimal lynch from the likelihood of hitting scum side. Heck, Zito's latest post gives me awful gut pains - it's not even the setting up lynches, but the confidence he emits that feels off (though my personal feelings about the Zwets wagon may well make what would otherwise feel slightly off feel way way off).

Unless Gorrad can prove the meta example. He's thus far been sane about the wagon, but if there isn't a good reason I'll be just as ticked at him as at the gamers at large.

@ Mystery Voice:

I'll help you

. That sufficient?

Seriously, the glee about the Zwets wagon is ticking me off. Seriously, have y'all seen that DeathNote is at least as bad? I don't necessarily want to lynch either, but how tunnelvisioned are you, and is it for worthy enough a cause??? NO.

The wagon consists of: Wolframnhart, who initially voted to spur more posting (which admittedly hasn't materialized) and now feels that Zwets hasn't given a good reason not to vote him (decent); Cobalt seems to be basing his vote on the meta that Zwets often spams and here is lurking (is this established as different from baseline or different from Town playstyle? Not really) (Meh); DoS is another vote for inactivity (meh again, seriously, others have been playing off their baseline including me [struggling with busyness and lassitude means that my activity has been substantially lower than normal as scum or town for me too, sorry, d'oh]); Ace votes him for not responding to his wagon (which is a fair point, though again it's less than other points against other scumbugs), Reck, who starts off as a policy lynch and then says something about a game where Zwets was scum . . . I don't see the parallels.

@ Rechoner

- enlighten me? (blah); Zito wagons to help move the stalled game (on a guy he already said was somewhat scummy) (and then banks on Zwets scum) (shudder); Kise votes late on the bandwagon for an RVS-type reason (OMG DAYVIG MAJOR TARGET HERE!); saberwolf votes to bandwagon and because Zwets isn't close to lynch, trying to dissociate himself with the consequences of the lynch and being blatantly unproductive like that (OMG ANOTHER!); Gorrad seems to remember actually relevant meta (okay, but I want to see it and, like Gorrad, am not inclined to sift through all of Zwets' games) (:x).

So, to sum up: Some people on the wagon have decent reasons. Some have semi-adequate reasoning but certainly should be tunneling on others besides Zwets for scumminess level. Some people on the wagon are blatantly scummy: Kise and Saberwolf.

Unvote; Vote: Saberwolf

As town he at least tries to help.

Did you see him recently in Border of Touhou and Mafia??? He lurked less, perhaps, but he was little more helpful. I disagree with the actual argument you use.

I'm in a bad move because all my Windows stuff is refusing to play visuals. You can tell that I'm overwrought because I'm actually asking about it here. Help?

Shut up about the mod warning. Yet another example of the dross that is clogging up these now

27

pages.

Will analyze the mod warning point tomorrow if I can make myself stomach actually picking apart the issue (probably not, but hope springs eternal).

[Plum]

Oh, and you're not trying to get yourself lynched, Kise?

[Plum]

Ooohhhh

. I see. You're lucky I'm answering you with sarcasm, not a blunt object tot he temple, but I suppose we must all count our blessings, mustn't we.

[Plum]

PEOPLE: Check

here

and tell me how much it looks like Zwets' play here. He was Town in that game. How conclusive do you find the meta evidence against Zwets - which is the bulk of the case - in light of this?Do you still believe hee's playing against his Town meta as opposed to against his general playstyle? Please feel free to compare to the examples of Zwets-scum posted by others. Thanks and have a nice day &c.

Gorrad: I checked your examples, don't see a real parallel. I do seem to see a big, nay huge difference between Zwets-scum here and Zwets there.

Saber: No, I don't expect everyone to have a completely unique reason to be on a bandwagon. I expect everyone to have a

good

reason. That's one of the criteria I use to judge a bandwagon. Contrary to your professed opinion, I believe that there are objectively good targets and good bandwagons Day 1, even in a very large game. No, really. Zwets isn't an example of a good wagon and many people on the wagon don't have good reason for him to be their top lynch. Multiple others are guilty of what they're calling him out for (lurking more than usual and not reacting much to the wagon on him are the only two reasons I consider remotely legitimate, and the first has not even proven to be part of his scum meta so much as not part of his playstyle as any alignment, and the second is legit but, frankly, not as strong a point of scumminess as are found pertaining to many other players). Others are shamelessly bandwagoning or shamelessly policy-lynching. Cute comic, though.

Zwets is not a fine secondary choice. Zwets is a fine fifth or below choice. DisCode is a good choice. DeathNote is at least as good a choice, active but contributing nothing useful, posting but not actually helping. Fuzzy's IioA post was pretty egregiously bad and I have a healthy slice of gut to go with that. Saberwolf tried to distance himself from the bandwagon's consequences in an extremely scummy manner. Kise doesn't even spare a word as to his reason for voting Zwets. Hayker hasn't posted since last Tuesday and mostly posted long walls of flavor background. Malthusis hasn't posted for over a week. Point is, why Zwets? It's too easy a wagon probably because it's Zwets. Others are being just as, if not more, scummy, and certainly multiple others are just as lurky, and here we are with Zwets the nigh-inevitable lynch, depending on his claim.

Suffice it to say that it makes me like the Zwets wagon less and makes me want to scrutinize the people on it to see who comes out looking worst of the wagoners re: the wagon.

I basically agree with Saber's theory post about pre-planning things.

RECK: I don't see the lurking. I just see normal Zwets. Seriously. Telling me that the playstyle doesn't differ too much is all good and well, but by that count it also doesn't diverge much from what I've seen of him as Town.

Kise: I prefer pirates to ninjas anyway, so nyeh.

Needless to say, but why not throw the baby out with the bathwater, I find Ice's Post 697 eminently sane.

I'm not tunneling on Fuzzy for lurking (:? - though he has been and did try to throw pebbles at other lurkers in similar glass houses, so that strengthens my feelings on him somewhat). I'm focusing on him as a top suspect for Post 356. I think I've discussed many times why I find that post so scummy.

Raider is also being sane, so I plan to look into DoS later tonight. Except that I think Raider's wrong about Zwets having an incentive to die.

We don't need to "drag this out" but I'd prefer dragging to a Zwets lynch at present.

*Tears hair out*

If Zwets seriously keeps ignoring this, this will be inevitable even if it's not optimal.

[Plum]

Okay that claim erased the gut-feelings I had (which I then tried to supplement with rational explanations of where they might be coming from) on Zwets and the bad-gut feelings about the wagon. That claim is so false even a newb at Kingdom Hearts can smell it three miles away. Diescumdie.

EDIT: Oooooh. Fireworks.

[Plum]

I would believe anyone that claimed a common character in fact. I mean, why wouldn't they be legit [town] roles?

Mod-provided fakeclaims? Idiosyncratic scumteam choices (ala the notorious HP mafia)?

So.. the storyline Slicey wants to write is about a bunch of minor characters in that case. Right.

So . . . the storyline Slicey wants us to see is one with many or most but not all main characters and a bunch of minor characters. As someone who has planned out storyline-flavor-heavy setup-ideas, I assure you that that's more the norm than about any other approach I can think of.

Scumvibes. Details later.

[Plum]

Plum is faking the funk. Kairi is in the top 5, if not top 3 of KH's main characters. I couldn't imagine Kairi NOT being in this game before zwet died. Lastly, let's not try to outguess the mod. Just because I say I'd believe zwet claiming Kairi doesn't mean I should be crucified for it. I can only see scum getting mad at players being confirmed via char-claims.

FOS Plum

so that any suspicion she has on me will be totally OMGUFS.

Ever heard of scum claiming on obv-town-rolename either as fakeclaim or in despair, hoping at least to reveal a likely powerrole (I don't believe every possible counter-claimer had posted between Zwets' claim and his death; am I wrong)? It's unlikely for a top-three main character to be a scum fakeclaim, but I certainly wouldn't rule it out. It's also unlikely for this top-three-or-so main character to flip Vanilla, but guess what just happened? Yeah. I don't think you should be crucified for it, but the time and way you said you were leaning towards believing the claim give me really bad feelings in my gut. When I actually have time I'll try to reread you in iso and see what my feelings are on you afterwards.

What did you think of the Kairi = Vanilla claim when it happened and why?

I'm not going to get mad at anyone getting confirmed for character claims. It's great if it happens properly.

Nice try, but I think you just OMGUS'ed me. Nice job. I'm getting sick of your jests; i.e. they're anti-Town and quite possibly scummy.

[Plum]

On the contrary, I though Zwets was lying through his teeth because I believed Kairi wouldn't be Vanilla. My stance on Zwets wasn't about the likeliness that it was a scum fakeclaim; it could have been and I knew that, but I had a different hypothesis (Zwets is scum lying, with no hope that he won't be lynched, so claims a major flavor-name in an effort to expose the real Kairi) which made me take that stance about the claim.

[Plum]

Zito, why have you not taken up the DGB case against me? I was under the impression that you were having similar feelings about me earlier (you said you felt I was talking like I knew what Zwets would flip; now that he has flipped Town, why do you not feel the same as DGB). Seriously, all you did was comment that I should've been Kairi, and cute and twee as I agree that would have been, why have you not struck at all?

[Plum]

Zito, why have you not taken up the DGB case against me? I was under the impression that you were having similar feelings about me earlier (you said you felt I was talking like I knew what Zwets would flip; now that he has flipped Town, why do you not feel the same as DGB). Seriously, all you did was comment that I should've been Kairi, and cute and twee as I agree that would have been, why have you not struck at all?

DGB is perfectly fine handling her own cases. I'm not sure why you're arguing against broadening the town's scope.

I'm not. I'm wondering why you aren't voicing any sort of agreement with a case you seem to have felt was possible/relevant even before Zwets flipped now that he has.

[Plum]

Raider, why are you so sure there won't be a counter claim? I specifically worded my posts so that, if Iecerint was scum, he would HAVE to claim Jack. Meaning he could not, should he be scum, claim one of his safeclaims. So. Either a) Iecerint is scum, Jack was one of the fakeclaims b) Iecerint is telling the truth c) Iecerint is scum and risking a counter claim from town.

Only scum know who scum are. I want to know why you dismissed option c so assuredly.

Also, I disagree completely about DGB leading the town.

For those keeping score at home, SirPent, Raider, SSK, Deathnote, and Saberwolf are my current likely scum candidates.

What would anyone have to gain by counter claiming this early in the game?

One dead scum. One for one trades are like %99 of the time a really really good thing, and that's probably a conservative estimate. Your joke in the next post about being scum not wanting to be on a Town mislynch, as DGB suggested, is not particularly reassuring.

Also why is DoS doing ever so well, Goofball. or DGB I guess is your real nickname. I think I am going to like you, you and I have the same fun to win ratio beliefs when it comes to mafia.

yes fun is what it's all about.

DoS always sets my scumdar on fire. I recently pushed for his lynch and he flipped town (so was I), so I'm a little singed.

Hi guys,

"Was town" Was being past tense, past tense being a scum slip.

Vote:DrippingGoofball

Vote: Hayker

I like my scum toasted. It brings out the flavor. Do I even need to explain why this is a super-scummy, blatant twist of DGB's words? No, good. The MafiaSSK vote following is also weird: if Hayker truly believed it was a scum slip, he'd either not unvote because it was to him a very clear indicator of DGB-scum or would say something like "Oh, I get it," to DGB's response and unvote. Neither happened. Instead Hayker goes back to the ol' 'can't we make DisCode's replacement claim' as some sort of distractor/ a desperate plea for us to go back to pressuring someone many now feel is likely Town, continues to attack DGB's normal parenthetical comment (DGB wanted to indicate she was Town trying to lynch scum and helped mislynch DoS rather than a scumbag trying to mislynch).

Oh and I didn't notice Reck asked DGB to speculate scumteams. Yeah, that sort of thing is useless and counterproductive as hell Day 1 with one flip thus far. It's definitely not a scumtell on DGB's part to say it's wrong to ask that and refuse to comply. Sheesh.

Going to go back and reread and all that soon. DGB is prob-Town over here.

[Plum]

I know the reason I have a hard time paying attention to this game and it is that I come home and since this afternoon there have been like 7 pages of stuff.

I have a strong gut read on Chris as Town and I don't have the three hours it'd take to really parse him. DoS' case is unconvincing over here; most of the things I read seem to be playstyle variations and theory things which actually look pretty okay (tunneling

can

be a legit and food Town approach in certain cases. Yes. It can).

Then hammer me already so I can laugh my way into oblivion as you wake up tomorrow morning with 4-5 town players gone and only my thoughts on who scum are to lead you.

Go you blind little sheep go!

Dieplz.

After like 4 pages of just Chris-DoS-Mae-Ace I'm ready to ask our friendly neighborhood dayvig to

shoot me in the temple right this minute

.

Vote: DragonsofSummer

I will not be able to forge through another twenty pages before a lynch. I just won't. He reads around scummy to me, but the way this game has been going I mostly have a bunch of scummishs, a bunch of neutrals, a good few Towns, and a few I-did-not-know-you-were-playings. This kinda sucks, but hopefully more time to devote to the game on my part + less spam on everyone's would cure it.

[Plum]

That would be... me!
I used a one-shot ability that tests claims. The shot missed- that means

his claim is a lie and he should be lynched instantly

.

Either this is a joke and you should be killed...

or this is serious and you should full claim.

If he says he's serious I'd go ahead and lynch SSK. Do we really need a fullclaim? It'll become pretty clear if Cobalt is lying if we do that, one-for-ones are good in that case anyway, and there's the odd chance that him not fullclaiming will keep info that needn't be revealed out of scum hands.

[Plum]

Vote: MafiaSSK

Let's go.

RayFrost: Yeah, busyness + never having really got a full hold on this freaking huge seventy-odd page game has kinda hurt. I did think about it and do a little reading up during Night 1 when I had a few minutes and reconsidered my position on Hayker somewhat.

But that's all in the past, because I certainly now have something to catch my attention and hopefully my whole self &c. this game. Happy days are here again and all that.

Sorry.

EDIT: Um, yeah if Iec has a spare daykill that probably works, too: it'd be like getting a free Day; I disagree with Cobalt on the Tempo thing. We'll be plenty upbeat about hunting if we get a scumbag daykilled, I think. Either way, SSK, say your prayers, last goodbyes, whatever.

[Plum]

I would like to know what pro-town role shoots someone for being truthful.

Also Kitten person I totally forget what I was accusing you of, honestly.

Yeah, the role is sketchy and has the potential to hurt the Town. Some roles are like that. In either case we have at worst a one-for-one town/scum trade going down here. If SSK is Town, Cobalt dies. If he's scum Cobalt is less suspect but not fully cleared, and as the game goes on we can always reevaluate him if the situation calls for it. Yeah, they could be buddies, and the bussing claim from SSK is certainly relevant. Right now the optimal play is still to lynch SSK. Or shoot him. Whatever.

[Plum]

DTM is right. Fire when ready, Iec.

[Plum]

Look, Kdub just claimed that Cobalt was lying. We have Iec kill Cobalt. If Cobalt is scum, great; we can go on and lynch SSK. If Cobalt flips town, we have two scum caught. Cobalt, you needn't resist your lynch if you're Town, as you will have basically ensured the death of

two

scumbags. That's something to celebrate, man!

That said you're scum. Nice flailing, though.

[Plum]

DTMaster, are you reading this game? I claimed the full ability, lie detector trait and all, several pages ago.
Also, it makes no sense to kill me based on the flavor of an ability when I just caught scum. Plum, what other scum did this reveal?

Kdub claims he has info and knows you can't be from Disney Castle. You say you are. If you're Town. he's almost certainly lying scum. SSK is confirmed scum if you flip Town. That makes two.