Legacy of the Ancients Mafia (That's All, Folks!)

[Vaya]

Vote: forbiddanlight

[Vaya]

I think it would be best if I were lynched Day 0...

Seriously? Could you explain why?

Also, I agree with Kai about zwet.

[Vaya]

Alright then, if you really want it.

Unvote
Vote: MafiaSSK

[Vaya]

People are failing to realize even a vig can 'potentially help the scum'. A vig isn't guaranteed pro-town results. Getting caught up on whether or not SSK's can 'help or hurt' the town is irrelevant because he has stated that he isn't going to state the nature of his ability.

This is basically what I've been thinking in regards to the idea that SSK's role could potentially help scum. A few people are making too big a deal out of it, most(non-investigative) roles that actually do something could potentially help out scum more than town(a vig killing townies, doc protecting scum from death, RB'er blocking pro-town actions, etc.).

Really, the fact that SSK is honest enough to admit that about his role gives me a feeling that we can trust him. I don't think he'd say something that could discourage the town like that if he were scum trying to sucker the town into lynching him.

SSK should be lynched asap, there's no point in wasting time trying to go after other people right now when the logical play would still be to lynch SSK at the end of the day. There's no reason we can't wait until tomorrow for that.

[Vaya]

Meh, back to lynching SSK.

Vote: MafiaSSK

[Vaya]

The 3rd post does describe the Ancients as the

primary

town faction, which I feel does suggest that there may be other factions out there that are pro-town.

I think I believe Slicey.

[Vaya]

Actually, I read it as the faction being Ancient (so all non-Ancients would have to leave the game),

but

another faction might say that it doesn't count as a faction for the standard factional win condition, or even counts as Ancient for the standard factional win condition.

I'd actually guess its the first. Seeing how the Ancient win con specifically makes a point to say they do count as a faction, I could easily see another faction saying the same thing except that they do not. So something like, "Your faction does not counts as a faction when calculating the standard factional win condition. (Your faction does not have the standard factional win condition.)"

Also, if she really thinks she needs to, I say let bunny on the wagon. Let someone else unvote who doesn't mind so Slicey can get on like he asked to.

[Vaya]

that would be a lot of lynchers :S

It could even be a team of lynchers for all we know.
*taps fingers*

I'm going to hold serious setup speculation until a bit later when we have more info. That said, I wouldn't put it past Tar to have two neutral factions (Outsiders and Shadows?) each trying to eliminate the other first. But that's pure speculation.

Well the Shadows are stated by Tar as "seeking to undo the Ancients and impose their vision upon reality." So its likely that Shadows are simply scum, and the Outsiders are here to help eliminate the Shadows.

[Vaya]

SSK, is it alright if you're simply killed instead, or do you have to be lynched?

[Vaya]

Stupid move by SSK. He was already confirmed and now he is a stump.

To be fair about it, it wasn't really a stupid move on SSK's part because he apparently wasn't told what would happen when he died, only that it was activated upon his death.

Also,

Vote: Xyl

.

[Vaya]

Okay, I'm still willing to hammer. Claim Death Note.

[Vaya]

Sounds fine to me.

Vote: DeathNote

[Vaya]

Vote: SocioPath

[Vaya]

I don't see why people are being so skeptical about what dram's saying, it makes enough sense, that Budja would protect the claimed investigative role. It is odd how malt would have targeted dram, perhaps his kill was redirected by that Shadow Redirector that just flipped(though I'm not too sure why he would have targeted malt, lucky guess maybe). That would make sense going along with flavor, it seemed that malt though that he was visiting someone else that was thought to be a Forsaken(Xyl).

[Vaya]

There's scum on the council. And they remain alive.

I was hoping that DragonsofSummer would be the only one.

But the Shadows(or possibly some other faction) knew to redirect malt's kill. DoS was neutral aligned, so there are still other scum in the council.

Was DN a member of the council, FL? If not, I'm in favor of you outing your fellow councilmen, since we would know that at least one of them is scum, especially if you have an idea who it is. It really wouldn't hurt much since The Shadows would already know about the council anyway.

[Vaya]

Unless, Deathnote talked in the private thread to his fellow mafia members to get the redirection.

This is what I'm thinking is possible if DN was a council member. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it would be possible for him to be the only Shadow in the group if he was around when you guys were talking about sending malt to do the kill.

[Vaya]

No prod necessary here.

Vote: Xyl

[Vaya]

Could I get some clarification on a few things? Sajin, who exactly did Starbuck target and when? And what exactly were the results on SP that made you suspect him? Do you know what Mufasa was referring to when he said he had reason to suspect Mae based on his trackings?

[Vaya]

Bunny, if you don't have an investigative role like dram's, you're usually not informed of being RB'ed. That would be why you were not aware of the paparazzi.

[Vaya]

No, investigative roles are usually told when they are RB'ed, because their role would require the mod to respond back to them anyway, and so that they would know they were blocked and that the mod didn't just forget them. Other roles are typically not informed of being blocked.

In fact, I was an investigative role in Tar's last mini, and when I was RB'ed, I got a message saying I was RB'ed along with fluff like dram did. Another player who was a jail-keeper did not get this message.

[Vaya]

If that's all ani's ultimate is, then there's no point in wasting a kill on him if all he's going to do is what he can already do while he's alive.

[Vaya]

I'm not sure with one we should lynch, they're both probably scum. I'm thinking ani right now though, for a few reasons.

1. His claim of redirecting Starbuck to himself contradicts Sajin's results. Starbuck couldn't have targeted Bogre if he were telling the truth.

2. He claimed redirector, and every redirector so far has been Shadow.

3. His claimed ultimate bothers me, for the reason Bunny pointed out in post 1076. Also given that he's specifically been asking to be vig'ed all this time, if he's lying scum, I don't think we should give him what he wants.

Vote: ani

I'm also fine with lynching Starbuck too, of course, though I prefer to lynch ani.

[Vaya]

1. Wait, what? You're claiming to be paying so little attention that you can't even remember when or what order you used your powers?

2. Its not impossible, but I'm definitely wary of any redirector claims right now.

3. Again, what? With the Ultimate you claimed, it shouldn't matter to you whether you're lynched or vig'ed, so why are you still asking to be vig'ed and opposing you're lynch?

[Vaya]

2nd Ultimate? You're referring to your Renumeration, correct? That only takes effect after your Ultimate, so after you're already in the graveyard. So according to the role PM you posted, we could lynch you, and you wouldn't be removed from the game unless you were lynched again or targeted.

[Vaya]

Keeping in mind ani what I've told you about your claimed Ultimate still going off even if you are lynched, do you still have a problem with being today's lynch?

[Vaya]

@Sajin
I've thought about it a bit, and I've decided I'll tell you guys all about the Outsiders later today when I have more time. Let me just say now that Bunny is an Outsider(not Slicey's mason partner though), though she won't admit to it if you ask her directly(or she shouldn't), but she along with any other Outsiders, are innocent.

Also, let me make it clear right now that I am not an Outsider.

[Vaya]

Alright, here's everything to know about The Outsiders. This is going to be a pretty big post because I have a lot to explain about the mystery behind the Outsiders, so bare with me. tl;dr version in my next post for those of you who understandably don't care to read all of this, so you can skip over all these long details and explanations in this post if you wish.

I'm not positive this is the right thing for me to do, but its obvious that Bunny's an Outsider right now, and I don't want people thinking she's scum. I don't know how many more Outsiders the faction can afford to lose.

I am Slicey's mason partner, however, I am not claiming to be an Outsider like he was.

First off, they are not exactly Ancient-aligned, perhaps the way Slicey said they were pro-town is a slightly misleading way of putting it. The Outsiders are their own faction, with their own win condition. However, in working towards that win con, they are not working against the Ancients in any way, but in fact, are aiming to assist them against the Shadows in the War of Light and Shadows.

Flavor says that the Outsider's government has not officially taken a stance in the war, however, the Outsiders here wish to help the Ancients, thought they do happen to care about their own safety as well.

Let me start off with the Outsider's win condition. This is what (Tar says it should) look like.

Win Condition (Outsider):

You win if the Outsider faction has thirteen points or more at the end of the game. Your faction may or may not count as a faction when calculating the standard factional win condition.

(Your faction does not have the standard factional win condition.)

To cover the issue of how the Ancients are supposed to eliminate all other factions, pay attention to the second sentence of the win con. That may sound like you guys might still need to eliminate the Outsiders, however, there happened to be an error in Slicey's role pm that proved to be quite telling.

Win Condition (Outsider):

You win if the Outsider faction has thirteen points or more at the end of the game.

Your faction does NOT count as a faction when calculating the standard factional win condition.

Your faction may or may not count as a faction when calculating the standard factional win condition.

(Your faction does not have the standard factional win condition.)

When Sajin started asking about the win con, I took another look at it and noticed something odd about it. Look at the second and third sentence to see what I mean, it repeats and contradicts itself. I confronted Tar about this and he pretty much explained the truth to me.

I was told that the role PM should look like the first one I posted, and that is the real won condition which was(probably) given to all the other Outsiders. In addition, he explained to me that the Outsiders do NOT count as a faction when calculating the standard factional win con, but he decided later on not to tell The Outsiders that. He said something about his reviewers being worried that The Outsiders could just claim their win condition to clear themselves as not scum(though honestly, I don't quite understand this, due to the Mandate I'm about to cover soon).

However, Tar forgot to delete the line where he said they do not in Slicey's PM, so now I know for a fact that The Outsiders DO NOT count as a faction for calculating the standard win, so the Ancients do not need to kill them off to meet their win condition.


Anyway, now about those points The Outsiders need to accumulate to win. They have three methods of accumulating them.

1.)

Self-Preservation Mandate

- At the end of the game, if you survived to the end of the game and you did not claim that you were a member of the Outsider faction during the game, the Outsider faction will gain a point.

(Being outed as an Outsider by another player or by death reveal will not break this condition so long as you do not personally confirm via post that you are an Outsider.)

This is why bunny, and no other Outsider will ever admit to being an Outsider. As it says though, its alright for others to say it for them, as long as they don't outright admit that person is right. This is why Slicey wouldn't say he was an Outsider when asked Day 0, and why bunny won't admit to it now.

2.) Survival

From what I know, each Outsider gains a point if they are alive by the end of the game. This was the reason for Rec's survivor-like behavior Day 0(actually, I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out that he never drew the conclusion that Outsiders are not bad). However, Slicey's was a bit different than what the other Outsiders' probably are.

Lover's Unity

- At the end of the game, if both you and your Mason partner survived to the end of the game, the Outsider faction will gain a point.

It would be impossible for any Outsider Masons to gain a point this way right now, so their survival isn't as important as that of bunny's or other potential Outsiders. If any town protective roles want to be nice and help out your Outsider allies, you should focus on protecting bunny please. I'm not sure the Outsider faction can afford to lose another that can gain a point through survival.

3.)

Outsider's Disdain

- Whenever you are on the lynch wagon of a player of the Shadow Faction, the Outsider faction will gain a point.

This is the Outsider's main method of gaining points, and why people like Slicey and Bunny will want to be on every lynch wagon. Pretty self-explanatory, really.

[Vaya]

tl;dr version:

I am Slicey's mason partner, though I am not confessing to being an Outsider like he was.

The Outsiders are here to assist the Ancients in the war against The Shadows.

The Outsiders DO NOT have the standard factional win con, NOR do they count as a faction when calculating the standard win condition(I know this to be true due to mod error). This means that the Ancients do not need to eliminate them in order to meet their win condition, and the Outsiders meeting their win con doesn't interfere with the Ancients at all.

The Outsiders win by surviving to endgame, not admitting they are Outsiders, and lynching Shadows.


Alright, is there anyone here who doesn't believe what I'm saying, and still thinks the Outsiders are scum, or cannot be trusted(Sajin? Starbuck?)? If so, explain why, because I haven't seen a single reason to distrust the Outsiders.

[Vaya]

Was Reck in your mason group?

Its just the two of us, me and Slicey.

[Vaya]

I can easily tell by her behavior. She really wants to lynch Shadows, and she won't admit what faction she is from.

[Vaya]

Vote: Starbuck

[Vaya]

My question is if Vaya and Snow_Bunny are Outsiders. Why are we not lynching them? The Outsiders being alive is against our Ancient Win Condition!

I already covered this, as bunny pointed out. The Outsider win condition specifically states that it does not interfere with the standard win condition such as the Ancient's.

[Vaya]

No, for obvious enough reasons. Also, Bunny, I'd suggest that we just ignore Starbuck right now, you need to be careful about not saying anything that may violate the Mandate.

[Vaya]

I swear to you guys that its impossible and makes no sense for The Outsiders to be blocking the Ancient's win for a number of reasons. A few that come to mind immediately,

1.) Flavor wise, Outsiders are here to assist the Ancients, it makes no sense for them to make themselves an obstacle to the Ancients winning.

2.) One of the Outsider's goals is to survive to endgame(see Rec's very survivor like behavior if your actually skeptical of this for some reason). It would make no sense for them to prevent endgame from coming after everything else is done, that would be rather counter-productive to their survival.

Really, you guys should worry about getting rid of all other non-confirmed's and potentially still alive scum(zwet, Starbuck) before thinking about the Outsiders, given that they are not scum.

I motion for a council investigation on vaya

Why? You should know what I'll come up as, I don't see the point. I do think a global RB should happen if the game doesn't end after today's lynch.

[Vaya]

I do agree with malt and think that Starbuck could still be alive, there's a reason that there are two extra votes here and ToD's kill flavor is the same as Starbuck's seemed to be. She could also potentially be the last scum and what's keeping this game going. I'm down with lynching either zwet or Starbuck today. I have a preference for Starbuck, I don't too particularly think zwet is scum so much as he happens to be the last person alive we don't know the alignment of.

I say this is what we should be doing now.

1.) Lynch Starbuck/zwet

2.) Global RB, if the game is still going.

3.) Lynch the other.

4.) The game

will

be over at this point.

I'd really like it if we lynched Starbuck first guys, does anyone have a reason zwet should come first?

[Vaya]

However, Snow Bunny COULD have an outsider fake claim, so she's safe to eliminate in our destruction of unconfirmeds plan.

Pardon? Why would scum have a fakeclaim for a non Ancient faction? Also, Bunny's behavior all game has been blatantly Outsiderly, I could tell she was an Outsider from the beginning. It's impossible for me to believe she's not an Outsider and has been faking it the whole time.

[Vaya]

Again, bunny has been obvOutsider from the beginning, before anything has been said about them, I find it impossible to believe that she has been faking it, she's confirmed Outsider as far as I'm concerned.

Anyway, if you're set on taking care of Starbuck tonight(though I'd personally really prefer to global RB, then Outsiders help lynch again for the sake of points, I don't see how it makes any difference to the Ancients), I can settle on zwet. I'll vote zwet after bunny gets here and places a vote.

[Vaya]

Messed up on what?

[Vaya]

Ugh.

Vote: zwet

Let's just get this over with.

[Vaya]

Alright, who the hell killed me. >_>

Also, Outsider win was pretty much lost as soon as me and Reckoner died.

It seems that malt vig'ed you for some reason.

And actually, surprisingly enough, we came pretty close to winning, thanks to bunny's factional ability that the rest of us were unaware of. If we had lynched one more scum(Starbuck, as I was pushing for the last day, assuming that would have counted), and I didn't pull that stunt of mine that Tar ruled as claiming Outsider, we would have won.

If not for malthusis's Renumeration, I would have strongly considered leaving the game open for one more day (and autotargeted malthusis's Avenge to S_B) in order to give the Outsiders a final chance at fulfilling their win condition. You guys came damn close. - Tar

[Vaya]

Actually, I had requiem of the oldest order, so I could have won even after being lynched if not for malthusis.

I know. <3 malt SO much for this game.

I don't. >_>