Mini 878: Nouns Mafia - Da game is ovah!

[StrangerCoug]

I hereby understand and confirm my role.

[StrangerCoug]

Vote: MacavityLock

for being my scumbuddy in Mini 698.

[StrangerCoug]

scumteam = sensfan, boxman, macavitylock

confirm or deny?

Sounds as good as anything else right now

[StrangerCoug]

Wee. Not much going on is there?

Unvote: MacavityLock
Vote: Boxman

for stating the obvious. Why sit on the sidelines when there's lot of opportunity to start the ball rolling?

[StrangerCoug]

Why does your avatar look familiar, Seol?

[StrangerCoug]

That's a possibility.

[StrangerCoug]

Because it's customary on this site to start a bandwagon against someone for no reason during the first few pages of the game to put pressure on them then watch their reaction. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but there are certain players who will defend it rather vehemently, so I usually just go with it now.

I dislike the bandwagon stage myself, actually. SensFan is certainly not guilty of the worst scumtell in the world, but when a serious vote happens, it's time for everyone else to get serious also. It's kind of hard to call my vote on Boxman a second random vote, though I was aware of the unlikelihood that he'd be lynched on that alone. Seol's vote is clearly serious, and I am led to believe he interpreted mine as so. I'm with Parhelic here—I know the site meta, but I like reasons too.

Also, be careful saying that certain votes are for pressure—they lose their effectiveness as such if you say so out loud.

[StrangerCoug]

SC, why are you assuming my vote isn't serious?

You seemed to just go with the flow. You still had a neutral read afterward, but again, I'm not all for the bandwagon stage.

The boxman wagon does not look random to me. It looks to be based on a weak scumtell. I don't know how others see boxman's post 31, but to me it's boxman posting without content, posting without trying to advance the game or scum hunt, and possibly the worst sin of all -- making my sensfan bandwagon look silly!

I love how you call a scumtell weak and then make two points against him supporting the tell.

FoS: elvis_knits

[StrangerCoug]

I love how you call a scumtell weak and then make two points against him supporting the tell.

I thought this is at first, too -- Though I'd like to hear what elvis has to say about this, I think this is a misinterpretation. I think she's emphasizing that it's not a

random

wagon

because

there's a scumtell that's prompting it (even if that scumtell is pretty weak).

I correctly interpreted elvis_knits as not believing that the Boxman wagon was random. I'm attacking her for supporting the attack for a scumtell she says is weak, which made little sense to me.

SC, why are you assuming my vote isn't serious?

You seemed to just go with the flow. You still had a neutral read afterward, but again, I'm not all for the bandwagon stage.

The boxman wagon does not look random to me. It looks to be based on a weak scumtell. I don't know how others see boxman's post 31, but to me it's boxman posting without content, posting without trying to advance the game or scum hunt, and possibly the worst sin of all -- making my sensfan bandwagon look silly!

I love how you call a scumtell weak and then make two points against him supporting the tell.

FoS: elvis_knits

I didn't mean weak in the sense that it doesn't matter. I think it's entirely appropriate to go after weak tells in the beginning of the game. I didn't mean it as a criticism, only as a means of measurement. The second sentence was to show you what exactly about the post I thought was a weak scum tell. Again, weak doesn't mean "bad" but rather just not strong.

I actually think refusing to partake in discussion is pretty strong as it's anti-information.

[StrangerCoug]

What do you think about sensfan not explaining his boxman vote? I think that's anti-informational.

I already addressed this as him looking like he was just going with the flow.

[StrangerCoug]

5) Because there's not enough evidence to lynch, but I'm scared that we're pushing down that route.

I thought it had been established that Boxman's not very likely to be lynched on just opting to sit out, as much as I like the tell. You're panicking over an L-4 for little reason.

FoS: Netopalis

[StrangerCoug]

Something rings false with Netopalis's case on SensFan, but I can't pinpoint it exactly.

[StrangerCoug]

I'm all ears if you want to point it out.

Post #156, it looks like the problem is.

[StrangerCoug]

What does 156 have to do with his case on SF? Or am I just assuming you were implying it did?

#156 was Netopalis attacking SensFan, therefore I construed it as part of the former's case on the latter.

I think you're less likely to forget about a game as scum than as town.

Unvote: Boxman.

Vote: SensFan.

Cam

What leads you to this thinking?

*shrugs* I started suspecting you because you failed to provide logic, not because you weren't attacking me.

This comes directly after a post where SensFan brings up OMGUS. OMGUS is voicing suspicion of a player just because he or she voiced suspicion of you. Either you misunderstand the term or the last part of what I quoted implies a misrepresentation of SensFan.

Let us assume I'm a Cop, neto.

If I am forced to make a list, I am forced to either place any Innocents I have on my Town section, or risk really screwing with people's attempts to figure out my targets if I die before I claim.

If everyone has Joey on their Town list, it tells the Scum Joey's probably not lynchable, something that is invaluable to them. If we just post who we find suspicious, there's probably 4-6 people that don't appear on anybody's list, and they could all potentially be lynchable.

This makes a lot of sense.

[StrangerCoug]

It's potentially scummy because a lot of your questions were really nitpicky. They seemed to be rather aggressive and, in a few cases, regarding things that just didn't matter. That being said, I only said it was potentially scummy, and it will be reevaluated as you play.

This is Neto's 156. He's explaining why he thinks my asking questions of players I suspect is scummy. Did you misinterpret this post, or did you mean to refer to some other post?

Looking back, one of SensFan's posts happens to have intervened between yours and Netopalis's. That must be why I thought Net was addressing Sens and not you.

[StrangerCoug]

Unvote: Boxman

and demote him to a

Major HoS
Vote: Netopalis

The end of page 10 looks a lot like he's trying too hard to look town. #247 is awful.

[StrangerCoug]

@Stranger, expand on your 252. Why does the end of page 10 make you change your vote to Net?

And as for my illogical thing on Sens, I guess it was really just a reaction to his stated policy of not giving reasoning/posting his thoughts. In retrospect, I probably should have backed down a bit earlier....But I was attacked in a recent game for backing down on an argument too easily. I guess I'm trying to find the line where backing down isn't considered anti-town play vs. where pressing too doggedly is anti-town play.

OK, looking harder at this, he says he's trying to find a happy medium between two extremes. OK, but why did I originally read this as "I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't?" It's hard to figure out his mindset here, and it doesn't come off as natural.

Well, a townie who always shows up as scummy isn't much help, are they? They just get in the way....

This is the awful post I speak of as it implies support for lynching village idiots. Do that and scum has an easy win.

Fair enough, I guess....

Am I the only person reading this as Net going with the flow?

[StrangerCoug]

That's all fine and dandy. Maybe there's nothing wrong with the last post I quoted.

[StrangerCoug]

Well, a townie who always shows up as scummy isn't much help, are they? They just get in the way....

This is the awful post I speak of as it implies support for lynching village idiots. Do that and scum has an easy win.

I read that differently. I will reserve my interpretation of it until Neto clarifies, though, just in case.

Neto... what did you mean?

He had already told me that he was referring to himself and not advocating policy lynching.

Am I the only person reading this as Net going with the flow?

I'm inclined to think that you would take anything Neto said and find it scummy. Not that you don't have any valid points, but I think it's unlikely that

everything

Neto says is scummy, even if he is. Once I find myself thinking that way about someone's posts, I usually think it's time to start being conscious of my own confirmation bias.

I brought my own interpretation of the post into question because I felt it one of my weaker reads on him. That's why I was happy to simply take Neto countering me with the exact opposite—the answer to my question may very well be yes, I'm the only person interpreting the post that way.

Also:

I've never been scum on this site

How much have you played?

While Iecerint's post is noted, I don't think it's all that scummy for him to say unless he's lying about a completed game.

In other news, Boxman's blatant lurking is getting on my nerves.

[StrangerCoug]

I'm not saying it is; to support it would be an example of the gambler's fallacy. It surprises me too that you say that, though.

[StrangerCoug]

Unvote: Netopalis
Vote: Boxman

You are done avoiding this game like the plague. Claim or die.

[StrangerCoug]

We're now split right down the middle with everyone voting. I'm happy with either lynch (and Net's claim is hard to wrap my head around), but Boxman or whoever's replacing him needs to get the heck in here and post something worthwhile.

[StrangerCoug]

Now I trust Lynch All Lurkers a little more seeing that Hoopla, who replaced my biggest suspect, got bombed.

I have to go to work now, so I'll make my big post in a minute, but something doesn't look right about Percy. elvis_knits is on the suspicious side with #326 also.

[StrangerCoug]

EBWOP: "In a minute" should be when I get back. I don't post from work.

[StrangerCoug]

elvis_knits is on the suspicious side with #326 also.

Why?

You asked why I didn't get off a scum wagon in favor of a town one. In light of both deaths, you could easily have been buddying Boxman.

And why didn't you hammer again?

I liked both as scum, but believed Boxman to be more so. I also felt my Boxman case was more solid.

We're now split right down the middle with everyone voting. I'm happy with either lynch (and Net's claim is hard to wrap my head around), but Boxman or whoever's replacing him needs to get the heck in here and post something worthwhile.

Moreover, this post stinks to high heaven to me.

Me and others thought there was something wrong with the claim and so wanted Net dead ASAP, so we could hopefully lynch scum and also to limit the amount of role info that got discussed.

Why did you want to extend the day by waiting for the Boxman replacement?

You are out of your mind. To answer your question, the more fake information scum gives us that we catch as such, the more rope we can tie them up with. On the other hand, if we don't allow town to post useful information, it's us that's hurt. Boxman didn't give us a whole lot; he was scum. You're not advocating much in terms of information; as what alignment do you think I like you? (Hint:

Vote elvis_knits

)

Before anyone goes there: Netopalis already claimed stethoscope, vanilla townie. You can't rolefish for information already there, and there wasn't much else Netopalis could have said anyway.

But when he switched his vote to NEtopalis, he gave the most horrible reason in the universe "Neto is trying too hard to look town."

No, "Neto is trying too hard to look town" is not the most horrible reason in the universe. Being pro-town should come naturally. If you're stumbling, that's a scumtell.

I don't get the Boxman/Netopalis case on me. Seriously.

Strangercoug: First vote on Boxman. I'm a little uncomfortable with:

It's kind of hard to call my vote on Boxman a second random vote, though I was aware of the unlikelihood that he'd be lynched on that alone. Seol's vote is clearly serious, and

I am led to believe he interpreted mine as so

.

That strikes me as awfully careful word choice - why not just say his vote was serious, that implies that my impression it was serious was

just

my impression, and not the intent.

That I chose not to straight-up call my first vote serious is conceded. As you quoted, I didn't expect Boxman lynched on that alone, though that was strong reasoning against him.

[StrangerCoug]

2town4town is literally the lamest, laziest "scumtell" ever, especially in the absence of meta. Hell, it's probably true of literally almost all town players. Town should almost always play town; being "too town" is not scummy. By that logic, I should start playing scummier to help the town rule me out as a possible scum player. Doesn't make any sense, right?

If you meant something else -- like, "Neto did X thinking it would seem town, but town players wouldn't really do X; town players would do Y. So Neto is scummy." -- it may be a valid tell, but that's not how your post reads IMO.

Didn't I already refute this? By "trying too hard", I mean he comes off unnatural. If I ever said anything along the lines of "Oh, Netopalis has blended in with the town quite nicely, so I'll go after him", then you have a legitimate case.

[StrangerCoug]

I think those voting Neto need to provide me with reasons as to why Boxman shouldn't go first.

We'll start on my Percy case by asking him to prove that the order in which Netopalis and Boxman die mattered.

How was Neto unnatural, in that case?

It took me awhile to read #245 as something other than "HELP! If I do this, town will go after me, and if I do that, town will go after me!", most especially.

#247 didn't look right either. Neto said the record straight for me by denying that it was advocating policy lynching village idiots and saying that it was instead referring to himself, which adds to #245's problem.

[StrangerCoug]

I think those voting Neto need to provide me with reasons as to why Boxman shouldn't go first.

We'll start on my Percy case by asking him to prove that the order in which Netopalis and Boxman die mattered.

That doesn't sound like you really have a lot to say on Percy if all you can come up with is one question. I wonder why you advertised some "big post." I feel cheated.

I was actually going to question Percy's calling out mathcam's vote on Boxman at #240 and why it's distancing, but reading it in context, I understand his stance.

How was Neto unnatural, in that case?

It took me awhile to read #245 as something other than "HELP! If I do this, town will go after me, and if I do that, town will go after me!", most especially.

#247 didn't look right either. Neto said the record straight for me by denying that it was advocating policy lynching village idiots and saying that it was instead referring to himself, which adds to #245's problem.

Everything Neto said was being blown out of proportion and he literally was getting attacked no matter what he said. Haven't you ever had that experience as town? I know I have.

Also, he never got all panicky and said stuff like "HELP!" You're overstating that. He actually stayed pretty calm throughout, IMO.

Which is why I said it took me awhile to read #245 as not being panicky. That can also be added to my explanation as to why I favored lynching Boxman over Net.

[StrangerCoug]

Stethoscope didn't and still doesn't seem to me like a name claim for a vanilla, so if I'm reading your question right, not really. Given two lynch options, I will favor the one I'm more confident with my case in. I'll note a bad claim, but if that's their worst crime I'd rather bet money on someone else being scum.

[StrangerCoug]

Up until the "Major HoS" from yesterday, your case on Boxman consisted of

Vote: Boxman

for stating the obvious. Why sit on the sidelines when there's lot of opportunity to start the ball rolling?

Through the rest of the day, the only other times you mentioned Boxman were

In other news, Boxman's blatant lurking is getting on my nerves.

Vote: Boxman

You are done avoiding this game like the plague. Claim or die.

And your Boxman case was more solid?

I also felt my Boxman case was more solid.

What case?

You answered your own question there, Mac. Boxman did not want to participate and elected to waste our time. Somebody tell me Boxman's replacing out was not opportunistic.

something doesn't look right about Percy.

*adjusts hair*
... elaborate, please.

Other than what you've defended below, it's mostly gut. I may find something, I may not.

prove that the order in which Netopalis and Boxman die mattered.

I've addressed this numerous times.
Boxman was scummy; to be perfectly honest, I thought Iecerint was worse yesterday, but he was worthy of more attention than he got. If we lynched Boxman and he flipped town, the case against Neto would be much less powerful - still there, but most definitely not a top priority.
Now consider today - if Boxman hadn't been bombed, the focus on Neto during the incident (and his subsequent townflip) may very well have given Boxman enough room to shrug his shoulders and escape notice, as attention would be divided with the mislynching wagon. Again we'd have to ask - were those pushing the Neto wagon trying to protect scum-Boxman, or was everyone horribly misled as both Neto and Box are town?

Now I see what you were saying. I would be going as hard on Boxman today as I was yesterday if he were still alive; and had Net survived to make it to today I would likely have stopped pushing him by now.

Bombs kill the NKer, right? So BM NK'd SF and was himself killed. There are two sets of flavor on BM's death, which is why I think he was also vigged; the crater was probably the bomb flavor. I figured MC made more sense as an extra NK kill than an extra vig, but I was just guessing. Let me know if there is an obvious alternate interpretation of events, because, if so, it's probably clear to everyone else.

Convince me that you can reasonably balance a two- or three-person Mafia group, an SK which I'm led to believe is more specifically an arsonist, a vigilante, and a bomb with six or seven other town players.

My current theory is that SC is scum with Konowa, with big kahunia being a third party. Big K didn't seem to care which of boxman/net we lynched. He didn't really talk about anyone besides boxman/net yesterday, which leads me to believe he was not actually trying to scum hunt. He jumped on the biggest issue, pushed it forward without taking a big stance who was worse, and just sat there. Scum-o. If he were town, I would have expected at least a preference on which of boxman/net should die first, even if he thinks they're both scummy. So, that was a scummy was to replace into the game, but shows no preference between two wagons, one mafia, one town. Only an SK, who doesn't know if either is mafia, would show no allegiance.

I'm scratching my head here. It probably makes some sort of sense, but the wording in the last sentence is awfully strong.

[StrangerCoug]

But that's just it -- if Neto was scummy just for BM-directed favoritism, then his behavior is only scummy if BM is scum, right? As such, BM would've been the obvious lynch. Did you not see it that way, or did you think Neto was also scummy for his own reasons, or what?

Regarding balancing, if that's all there is to it, I fail to see the balance problem SC's alluding to. SF can be hammered by town just fine; the bomb role helps town, but not to a degree that balancing is unimaginable. SC's question is just rolefishing as far as I can tell. I'm happy with voting him.

I'm rolefishing for hypothetical setup information. How cute.

That said, I am not reasonably going to get a cop, doc, or any other crucial town role to say anything along the lines of "here I am" with my balancing question regardless of said power role's intelligence. I just think Mafia, bomb, vig, and SK is too heavy on ways to die in a 12-player—the Mafia could have lost on Night 1 out of sheer bad luck. Yes, luck plays some factor or other in a Mafia game, but it shouldn't be

THAT

strong in my opinion.

I will explain the SK thing in case it is unclear. SK's obviously don't have a link to mafia players. They can't be sure which players are mafia -- they want to get rid of mafia, hopefully by NK, while staying non-threatening during the day. So an SK is not necessarily going to try to save boxman. But they also don't really care who dies as long as it's not them. It's this sort of ambivalence, combined with lack of scum hunting that I see in BigK, that I think suggests he might be the SK.

Other than that, I don't understand your problem with my post or why you don't like it. Do you not understand what I mean? Do you disagree? You just take issue with my wording being too strong?

I don't understand your problem with it.

It's also possible for BK to have thought that both were scum, but he liked a Box lynch better than a Net lynch.

Nor do I understand why you voted me and continue to do so. Can you clarify why you are voting me? Because I don't really understand your reasoning in 356.

We're now split right down the middle with everyone voting. I'm happy with either lynch (and Net's claim is hard to wrap my head around), but Boxman or whoever's replacing him needs to get the heck in here and post something worthwhile.

Moreover, this post stinks to high heaven to me.

Me and others thought there was something wrong with the claim and so wanted Net dead ASAP, so we could hopefully lynch scum and also to limit the amount of role info that got discussed.

Why did you want to extend the day by waiting for the Boxman replacement?

You are out of your mind. To answer your question, the more fake information scum gives us that we catch as such, the more rope we can tie them up with. On the other hand, if we don't allow town to post useful information, it's us that's hurt. Boxman didn't give us a whole lot; he was scum. You're not advocating much in terms of information; as what alignment do you think I like you? (Hint:

Vote elvis_knits

)

Is this english? What does it mean? Specifically, "You're not advocating much in terms of information." I don't know what you're accusing me of.

Your attack on me is anti-information. I don't like people just going "I've had enough, now die." Let people go into their spiels on how they're innocent, why they can't have done what they've been accused of, etc. Nobody has to believe a word that player says, but when the player is finally hammered, we have a whole bunch of his or her thought processes and/or why he or she should have been lynched. I don't see town motives in cutting people short.

Vote Count Three

StrangerCoug:

3 (elvis_knits, Iecerint, MacavityLock)

Iecerint:

2 (Percy, Konowa)

elvis_knits:

1 (StrangerCoug)

MacavityLock:

1 (Seol)

Not Voting:

(big_kahunia)

8

alive,

5

to lynch.

Deadline:

Wednesday, December 2nd, 12:00 Noon EST

[StrangerCoug]

But that's just it -- if Neto was scummy just for BM-directed favoritism, then his behavior is only scummy if BM is scum, right? As such, BM would've been the obvious lynch. Did you not see it that way, or did you think Neto was also scummy for his own reasons, or what?

Regarding balancing, if that's all there is to it, I fail to see the balance problem SC's alluding to. SF can be hammered by town just fine; the bomb role helps town, but not to a degree that balancing is unimaginable. SC's question is just rolefishing as far as I can tell. I'm happy with voting him.

I'm rolefishing for hypothetical setup information. How cute.

That said, I am not reasonably going to get a cop, doc, or any other crucial town role to say anything along the lines of "here I am" with my balancing question regardless of said power role's intelligence. I just think Mafia, bomb, vig, and SK is too heavy on ways to die in a 12-player—the Mafia could have lost on Night 1 out of sheer bad luck. Yes, luck plays some factor or other in a Mafia game, but it shouldn't be

THAT

strong in my opinion.

So what was your point asking about balance? Do you have a different interpretation of night actions?

I interpreted Hoopla as only bombed, not also vigged.

Your attack on me is anti-information. I don't like people just going "I've had enough, now die." Let people go into their spiels on how they're innocent, why they can't have done what they've been accused of, etc. Nobody has to believe a word that player says, but when the player is finally hammered, we have a whole bunch of his or her thought processes and/or why he or she should have been lynched. I don't see town motives in cutting people short.

The whole point of lynching Net ASAP, was not because I "had enough" and just wanted him dead. That is a misrep of my why I, along with others who I think are town (mathcam we know is town, sensfan we know is town, seol I think is town), all decided Net should die pretty quickly. I wanted Net dead becasue 1)He claimed vanilla; and 2)I didn't want people discussing role PM's and giving hints to scum.

So you are accusing me of being anti-informational, when the information I was trying to protect was information that would be directly harmful to town if scum got a hold of it. This was clearly stated at the time.

I can see no town motivation for prolonging discussion at that time when everything that people could have said would help scum.

I'm sorry, whose role other than Net's was being discussed between his claim and his lynch? If nobody's, what can scum deduce from a vanilla PM other than that person isn't a power role? I'm

STILL

not making heads or tails out of this.

Edit: Tags fixed according to post below.

- Mod

[StrangerCoug]

Mod: Fix my quote tags please. That last quote that's marked as elvis_knits is actually mine, and there needs to be a quote tag right before that and after "...stated at the time."

I tried to do what I thought you wanted me to, let me know if I got it wrong.

- Mod

[StrangerCoug]

You've already asked that question, and I've already pointed out the circumstances where doing so could be advantageous to scum regardless of Neto's alignment. Read my last few posts directed at you.

Did I miss something? "How do you balance this?" ≠ "What can scum deduce from a vanilla role?"

I'm not sure where this overnight kill discussion is going, and am slightly uncomfortable with it. SC, do you have a point here which is relevant to our decisions today?

Not one that leads me to believe anybody is a certain alignment right now, no. elvis_knits and others think Boxman was vigged; I disagree. Do I believe elvis_knits to be scum because she disagrees with me about the existence of a vig? No, and if I did, I'd need to be hanged for it.

I'm sorry, whose role other than Net's was being discussed between his claim and his lynch? If nobody's, what can scum deduce from a vanilla PM other than that person isn't a power role? I'm STILL not making heads or tails out of this.

If you're assessing how plausible a claim is on day 1, then you have two points of reference: the claim, and the roles you know (for Mafia, that's all the Mafia roles, most likely). The only way you can justify whether or not that claim is plausible is by comparing it to your own, so therefore the arguments any player gives about that player's claim contain information about their own role. Information which may make it easier for scum to effectively fake-claim.

That's particularly true when the role has a specific role-related aspect, as in Neto's claim. If someone, for example, had reason to think that function and flavour were or were not linked and said so, then making that argument makes it easier for scum to fake-claim plausible (and durable) power-roles.

I fail to see how the role can be discussed without some other point of reference coming into it.

That's the wake-up call I needed. Thanks.

I need a clearer mind to think with in this game, so

unvote elvis_knits

for the time being.

[StrangerCoug]

So first we have the part where he unvotes scum and votes town, followed by the part ML doesn't like, where he gives a "major" HoS to Boxman. MAJOR! I find Foses basically useless and I don't bother to use them like 99% of the time. Maybe SC likes them. Some people do. But drawing a distinction between FoS, HoS and Major Hos... that seems forced, like he's trying to prove he REALLY is suspicious of Boxman while he votes someone else. I see it as weaselly garbage.

I use different FoS levels regardless of what alignment I am. "Major HoS" generally means that I'm either about to vote that person or would vote that person if I'm a double voter. Do you have a problem with people stating how suspicious other people are?

Then the part which I consider the scummiest reason in the universe to vote someone, "trying too hard to look townie."

Already denied as scummy and explained.

I see that SC has still failed to address my concerns about him.

What else is there to say? He chose not to participate, and his dropping out is opportunistic. If that's not a case to you, I'm sorry.

[StrangerCoug]

SC, how did/do you know that Box was being opportunistic and not lazy? Why is scum more likely than town to drop out in his situation? A town player has just about as much work to do as a scum player in his situation.

It had been brought up that Boxman was posting elsewhere at the time. It's going to be hard to convince me that Boxman was lazy, and that wouldn't be something I'd like him for either.

For the record, my position on elvis at the moment is:

I don't like how aggressive she's playing, I feel she's tunnelling badly and her reasoning isn't as strong as it could be. I feel she's overplaying the importance of people's positions on the Box wagon, am concerned that there's a possibility she's trying to establish that as a primary metric on the basis that it puts her in the clear, and thinking back to yesterday she seems almost

too

strongly on Box, moreso than I would expect an uninformed player to be.

I was wondering for a bit if elvis_knits was trying to stretch for a case on me. I don't like Iecerint's misrepresenting me either, and his defending against Percy doesn't work well. Those are my top two scum picks for now. (Mind you, something about Percy is still nagging me, but I can't figure out what anymore.)

I'll

vote elvis_knits

again. Iecerint,

IGMEOY

.

[StrangerCoug]

EBWOP: I adressed Mac's first question, but not his second

Lazy town and lazy scum are about as equally likely to drop out in my opinion. Scum who are put under a lot of pressure are more prone to dropping out than town put under a lot of pressure. Netopalis fought to the death and flipped town, Boxman just sat there until he got replaced and turned out to be scum. (Scum will fight to the death, too, but I'm unaware of a game where town dropped out in a similar scenario and got lynched for it.)

[StrangerCoug]

For the record, my position on elvis at the moment is:

I don't like how aggressive she's playing, I feel she's tunnelling badly and her reasoning isn't as strong as it could be. I feel she's overplaying the importance of people's positions on the Box wagon, am concerned that there's a possibility she's trying to establish that as a primary metric on the basis that it puts her in the clear, and thinking back to yesterday she seems almost

too

strongly on Box, moreso than I would expect an uninformed player to be.

I was wondering for a bit if elvis_knits was trying to stretch for a case on me. I don't like Iecerint's misrepresenting me either, and his defending against Percy doesn't work well. Those are my top two scum picks for now. (Mind you, something about Percy is still nagging me, but I can't figure out what anymore.)

I'll

vote elvis_knits

again. Iecerint,

IGMEOY

.

So, what is your reason for voting me? I don't see one here.

Basically Seol's case with my input that you're stretching a lot to find a case on me. Different levels of FoS's are not scummy, and voting someone for trying too hard to look town is voting someone for being unnatural; therefore, that is not scummy either.

[StrangerCoug]

SC: It's not a case on elvis, it's an unresearched compilation of gut feelings. I'd put it not much higher than "healthy suspicion".

@SC... Piggybacking onto Seol's case was lazy BS. As you can see, Seol himself doesn't even consider it a case. So please explain to me why you are voting me.

You like to cast pretty much everything I say and do at this point in a negative light. My FoS system, my Net vote reasoning, my pretty much joining in with Seol to cast suspicion of you (even though I'm aware Seol isn't quite sure about me one way or the other)... I can't help but compare myself to Netopalis right now. You severing your ties with Iecerint and going back to bussing him is the only thing that will make me happy in the foreseeable future.

I was just concerned with a kamikazee scum move hammer by SC since he's prob going to get lynched today. Normally I wouldn't expect that to happen, but if we're right about SC, then he has nothing to lose.

What makes you think I have nothing to lose if I am scum? Somebody mentioned that, if the Mafia redirector got bombed, then there's a strong Mafiate out there. Do you think it's somebody other than me?

I'm not confessing to anything; I just want to know your train of thought.

I will say this: SC hinted that he didn't like the claim either, but NOT for the reason I didn't like it!

This is saying it before we go there, not accusing you of anything along these lines: If it becomes clear that you think I'm scum just because we disagree about everything, I will hurt you.

Do you have an SC meta? I only remember playing with him when he was like total newb.

If it's the game I'm thinking of, I thought I got lynched before you replaced in. I've gotten much better since then, but still don't consider myself a good player. (And yes, I know that not being a good player is not a defense to anything.)

[StrangerCoug]

And nowhere in here do I see your reasoning for voting me.

There is no way for me to stop thinking you are scum if you can't even tell me why you are voting me.

If you cannot see my reason for voting you, then you are blind.

I will say this: SC hinted that he didn't like the claim either, but NOT for the reason I didn't like it!

This is saying it before we go there, not accusing you of anything along these lines: If it becomes clear that you think I'm scum just because we disagree about everything, I will hurt you.

You will hurt me? WTF?

Metaphorically. I don't know your real-life address, and I don't want to know your real-life address.

I'm not voting you because I disagree with you. You and Seol are currently painting me as some unreasonable person that goes "neenerneenerneener" every time someone disagrees with me or doesn't play the game like I do. That is not true.

Then come to your senses and accuse me of stuff that actually makes sense, not null trash.

Do you have an SC meta? I only remember playing with him when he was like total newb.

If it's the game I'm thinking of, I thought I got lynched before you replaced in. I've gotten much better since then, but still don't consider myself a good player. (And yes, I know that not being a good player is not a defense to anything.)

I think it was family guy mini and I think yeah you might have been lynched D1.

I did not play Family Guy Mafia.

[StrangerCoug]

I don't know why you're voting EK either, SC. It hasn't made sense all day. Literally, none at all.

I personally don't know why the other way around is also true for the same reason.

If she's just scummy for not wanting to lynch me, then you should be voting me. (That rhetoric sounds familiar.) Granted, if you're really only voting her for that reason....

Ah, don't worry. You're scum too, so your time will come. So will Percy's, once I find out what's up with him (I'm tearing myself up on the inside right now because I

STILL

haven't figured it out).

She is not merely scummy for not wanting to lynch you. For the ten millionth time, her case on me makes no sense whatsoever. I was more confident of Boxman being scum than Netopalis even though I wold have been OK with either's lynch, Netopalis acted unnaturally, I draw distinctions between by FoS levels regardless of my alignment, and I am not OMGUS'ing her.

Also, please comment in a bit more detail on Seol v. SX.

What do you mean "in a bit more detail"? I haven't said anything about it yet, have I?

I think Seol vs. SpyreX is town versus town right now. My opinion may change on closer investigation.

StrangerCoug

: My read is that he's playing very, very defensively. I know he doesn't like elvis or Iecerint, but I don't really know why. I don't think it's unfair to say that he hasn't scumhunted at all today - just casted aspersions.

I beg your pardon. I haven't scumhunted? I'm supposed to let elvis_knits's crap case on me sit there? Iecerint's conflating "trying too hard to be town" and "too townie" should be ignored? What are you smoking?

@StrangerCoug

: Who is scum? Why?

Briefly:

elvis_knits: Her case on me makes absolutely no sense from a scumhunting point of view.
Iecerint: Misrepresenting me.
You: Gut.

so

@Seol

: Do you still think MacavityLock is the most likely scum?

No. I had suspicions earlier: his reaction to SC's Major HOS felt bizarre, but his 431 does make sense as a basis for suspicion, so I'm more comfortable about him now. I was hoping SC would address that point, but he ignored it, which leaves me less comfortable with SC.

What would you like for me to say about MacavityLock's #431?

And nowhere in here do I see your reasoning for voting me.

There is no way for me to stop thinking you are scum if you can't even tell me why you are voting me.

If you cannot see my reason for voting you, then you are blind.

I obviously don't get it, SC. Why are you being difficult? Point me to the correct post or just summarize for me. That shouldn't take you more than a minute.

The only thing I can find is when you piggybacked on Seol:

Basically Seol's case with my input that you're stretching a lot to find a case on me. Different levels of FoS's are not scummy, and voting someone for trying too hard to look town is voting someone for being unnatural; therefore, that is not scummy either.

If this all you got, that means you are voting me because you don't like me voting you, think I'm stretching the case on you.

Which is OMGUS.

Since when? Your case on me is crap and you know it. Nobody is going to lynch me over my FoS system and my interactions with Netopalis are easy to explain. And apparently, neither of us are going to acknowledge that the other's case exists.

I don't think you actually think I am scum.

Like this sentence for example:

If it becomes clear that you think I'm scum just because we disagree about everything, I will hurt you.

It shows that you're frustrated with me, but it also shows that you accept that I "think you're scum." If I were scum, I wouldn't think you're scum. I would know who is scum and be trying to make townies look like scum but not actually think they are scum. Only a townie, who is actually scum hunting, would think people are scum.

So I think you are either frustrated town or frustrated scum, who is voting me because you want me to unvote you. It is a defensive maneuver.

If you are frustrated town, you need to start looking for scum.

Perhaps I should have used the wording "If it becomes clear that you

want us to

think I'm scum", but I think it still goes without saying that you are frustrated with me too.

And if I asked you to accuse me of stuff that actually makes sense, then I am not merely trying to get you to unvote me. I'm all ears and will continue to be until my death or win, but if it's going in one ear and out the other, somebody's doing something wrong.

My sister's computer is acting up, so I'll respond to everything else when I get home.

[StrangerCoug]

Konowa knows what kind of cases I'm talking about.

I have already given my feelings on SC's 325. The fact that he is happy with both lynches but fails to hammer really looks like an attempt to stay off townNet wagon. Now, let's take the quote below into consideration given his claim of happines with both lynches:

Stethoscope didn't and still doesn't seem to me like a name claim for a vanilla, so if I'm reading your question right, not really. Given two lynch options, I will favor the one I'm more confident with my case in.

I'll note a bad claim, but if that's their worst crime I'd rather bet money on someone else being scum.

Say what?

Wouldn't a bad claim make you [SC]

want

to lynch someone who you already consider scummy? Also, by stating it as his [Net's] worse crime seems disingenuous.

You have to keep in mind that my scum read on Netopalis had weakened. If you have a great case on somebody, then a third party you have a little bit of reason to believe is scum is driven to claim cop, and a cop doesn't fit well with the flavor and/or the setup, would you be more willing to go through with your case or lynch the claimed cop? Why?

Which is why I said it took me awhile to read #245 as not being panicky. That can also be added to my explanation as to why I favored lynching Boxman over Net.

Really? I find this very hypocritical given your position D1. To me, this looks like revisionist justification as to why you switched your vote off of Net.

Yes, I thought one thing about Netopalis, then another. That's what happens when you reread. I initially read #245 as Net saying as he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't, then on subsequent reads it came off more like he was trying to find a middle ground.

Other than what you've [Percy] defended below, it's mostly gut. I may find something, I may not.

The whole "I think you are scum, but you haven't done anything yet for me to call scummy, so I'll leave myself an out " implied business leaves way too much wiggle room. Scum leaving a back door open just in case? I think so.

Which is why I hate myself for having nothing but that gut to back up Percy's suspicions.

The re-vote of elvis in 434 leaves me scratching my head, especially after Seol himself says that it is not a case. SC, why is elvis scum?

Her case on me is nonsense. She is accusing me of stuff that is not scummy.

IF I MAKE YOU ANOTHER CASE, WILL YOU FINALLY TELL ME WHY YOU ARE VOTING ME, SC????

I did already. What you had accused me of previously made no sense, and I am not a broken record. This is

SOMEWHAT

better.

1) Hypocrite; not starting the ball rolling

scumteam = sensfan, boxman, macavitylock

confirm or deny?

Sounds as good as anything else right now

Joking post. (Read, anti-informational).

Wee. Not much going on is there?

Unvote: MacavityLock
Vote: Boxman for stating the obvious. Why sit on the sidelines when there's lot of opportunity to start the ball rolling?

First vote on Boxman. If there's any safe time to vote your buddy it's when nobody else is doing it. And if others are going to vote your buddy, might as well do it first.

Encourages bxoman to start the ball rolling when SC himself was not "starting the ball rolling himself." See last post where he joked instead of started the ball rolling.

Follows up with a fluff post:

Why does your avatar look familiar, Seol?

Net makes some joke about Seol being old fogey. Followed by SC conversational:

That's a possibility.

So these posts are in direct conflict with SC's expressed opinion that we should be getting the ball rolling and not farting around.

You are reading a

LITTLE

too much into random voting stage activity. First off, you quote me quoting you (!) making a scumteam with essentially three names out of a hat. I said it sounded as good as anything else because there was very little to go on. I may have agreed with a different combination of three names, but it doesn't look good on you if I agree with something you said and you call my agreement anti-information. It's called trapping.

Secondly, it was a conscious choice of Boxman not to participate. The jests that I made may have gotten us nowhere in the long run, but it's better than if I had publicly declared that I would absent myself.

The comment about Seol's avatar is conceded, but I say if you keep the fluff to a bare minimum, it's OK.

2) Boxman vote wasn't serious; didn't think boxman would be lynched

It's kind of hard to call my vote on Boxman a second random vote, though I was aware of the unlikelihood that he'd be lynched on that alone.

Shows that he did not consider his vote on bxoman very serious, and that he did not think boxman was in danger of being lynched for it (increases the liklihood that a scum would vote their buddy if they thought they weren't going to have to lynch said buddy).

My reasoning was still strong in and of itself. I am not psychic; I honestly expected for more to come out of him. If he's going to live to his word, oh well.

3)Hypocrisy re: anti-informational

I actually think refusing to partake in discussion is pretty strong as it's anti-information.

In direct conflict with his early behavior where he was anti-informational.

Defended in your defense of your first point against me.

4)Again, didn't think/want boxman lynched

I thought it had been established that Boxman's not very likely to be lynched on just opting to sit out, as much as I like the tell.

Again, showing he did not think his vote on boxman would lead to boxman's lynch. And also suggesting that maybe boxman should not be lycnhed just for opting to sit out.

Again, I expected more from Boxman and I didn't get it.

5)Vague accusations

Something rings false with Netopalis's case on SensFan, but I can't pinpoint it exactly.

This is a scummy way to suspect someone, since there is no attached reason. "This person seems scummy for some reason that I just can't think of at the moment."

It is a way of injecting doubt into the discussion, testing the waters to see if there is support for lynching the guy, and also to slowly move yourself over there, so when you vote people aren't surprised.

As dangerous a question it is of me to ask, is acting on gut scummy per se?

6)THE AWFULNESS

Unvote: Boxman and demote him to a Major HoS
Vote: Netopalis

The end of page 10 looks a lot like he's trying too hard to look town. #247 is awful.

This jump off boxman is very suspicious to me. SC has clarified that he was not saying he can tell the difference between someone who is town and someone trying to look town (as I originally thought).

When did I make such a clarification?

He has since said that Neto was trying to look town and failing.

I still to not see how Neto was "trying to look town and failing," or how any person could know such a thing.

I think this move off known scum is HIGHLY suspect.

Netopalis was more concerned about his image than scumhunting. That's the unnaturalness I keep speaking of.

7)More vague accusations

Today opens with SC making vague accusations against me, and also "something doesn't seem right about Percy." Which is the same bullshit he tried to sell us yesterday about Netopalis!

At least Percy has shown he doesn't give a damn about his image.

There was no conflation of "too townie" and "trying too hard to be townie." First, these are both crap "scumtells" as written, anyway, for reasons everyone has listed. Second, I gave you the benefit of the doubt and interpreted the latter into "miscalculated how a townie would behave" for your benefit. In other words, I was deliberately allowing that you may have made an argument that by all accounts was more sophisticated than what you actually said. Percy missed this when he read me for the first time, I corrected him, and he said sorry. Maybe you missed this?

I read that, and I believe I already discussed the caveat when you mentioned it. "Trying too hard to be town" is acting unnatural. "Too townie" is calling somebody out for blending in with the town. Do your definitions of the terms differ?

I also want to know why SC didn't comment on my discussion of Net's claim and why I didn't like it.

Was it between the source of the last quote in my last post and that last post itself? My sister's computer didn't really like me, and I'm back home on a computer I can (mostly) trust now. I would have gotten to it if you had given me time.

[StrangerCoug]

You know what, I'm going to tell my gut to stop yelling at me about Percy if I have nothing on him. That's one of my biggest hindrances to thinking straight right now.

[StrangerCoug]

OK, SpyreX, I present you elvis_knits (who needs a new avatar, though that doesn't make her scummy at all):

EXHIBIT A: THE SILLINESS

In ISO 4, elvis_knits said the Boxman wagon is based on a weak scumtell, which she proceeds to make two points in support thereof. I call her out on this, and I eventually buy her explanation in ISO 10's and 13 that weak ≠ bad. But how did Netopalis make elvis_knits's SensFan wagon silly?

EXHIBIT B: I DIDN'T HAMMER NETOPALIS, SO WHAT?

In ISO 48, elvis_knits said she's disappointed that I don't hammer Netopalis. She reminds me of this in ISO 50 and proceeds to imply I'm scummy for extending the day by waiting for Boxman or a replacement. I counter by saying that she's the one scummy for buddying to Boxman by trying to get me to switch my vote and for cutting discussion off. Harmful leaking of role information aside, I

STILL

can't figure out how my not hammering matters.

EXHIBIT C: "TRYING TOO HARD" IS A SCUMTELL... NOT

In ISO 52, elvis_knits says I'm fine until I switch from Boxman to Netopalis for "trying too hard to be town", which she says is the worst tell in the universe. She reasserts her position in ISO 60. I say Netopalis was unnatural, and end up piquing her interest, as shown in her ISO 62. I explain, and she counters in 63 by saying Netopalis was calm throughout. Then ISO 90 rolls in, with elvis apparently having forgotten what I had meant. If she didn't, then I'd like to know why she reverted to saying that the reasoning for the vote itself is shaky rather than the reasoning I think Netopalis was unnatural is shaky.

EXHIBIT D: MAJOR WASTE OF TIME DISCUSSING MY FOS SYSTEM

In ISO 78, elvis_knits calls out my giving a major HoS on Boxman right after unvoting him, calling it forced. I immediately defend it as playstyle, which is supported by MacavityLock's meta of me. (He does make a statement that I can be trigger-happy with these as scum, but that's not part of my case.) Arguing over playstyle is a waste of time.

EXHIBIT E: ELVIS_KNITS IS A HYPOCRITE TOO

When she does my case on me in ISO 118, the very first thing she does is call me out for being hypocritical about getting the ball rolling. OK, this makes some sense. Why, then, does she quote me agreeing with her wild scumteam theory, and why isn't she yelling at me about this until now, not to mention that the first post of hers that's really along the lines of anything serious is ISO 4?

Fixed tag.

- Mod

[StrangerCoug]

In this thread, elvis_knits runs out of energy to use on me. I'm not going to sit there and ignore what I've been accused of, and I still deny the OMGUS, but she and I are in an impasse and us continuing to engage in mudslinging each other will not help anybody right now.

While I'm talking along these lines, SpyreX making an attempt to break up our fight is contrary to the way I've seen him play as scum. I only have one completed game that I remember to go on, unfortunately.

SC, can you discuss why you weren't comfortable with Neto's claim?

I connected "stethoscope" with "doctor", not "vanilla townie". I also had yet to pay any attention to the mod saying that names might not make sense given roles.

I read over the SC/EK interchange, and I think StrangerCoug is the worse for it. Looking over post 561, it reads like

more defence

than any sort of case against elvis. SpyreX claimed that both of them were simply products of interaction between the players, but look at post 554 of elvis'. Only the last point is as Spyrex characterised.

Hey, Percy, reread the last sentence of Exhibit A in #561. I had stopped attacking her for the weak tell business, but it still has a question I want answered, and it has nothing to do with me.

In addition, the first point of #554 is also interaction between us as she quotes me quoting her. She trapped me with that statement. You cannot, within reason, call somebody out for agreeing with you, regardless of the seriousness of things going on. You also cannot, within reason, call somebody out for things you did too either.

[StrangerCoug]

Seol is still town right now. His attack on you is sensible, and I think he's dealing with my argument with elvis_knits quite well. Iecerint has improved to a neutral as he's explained away my biggest concern about him to my satisfaction, and MacavityLock is town.

[StrangerCoug]

SC, can you discuss why you weren't comfortable with Neto's claim?

I connected "stethoscope" with "doctor", not "vanilla townie". I also had yet to pay any attention to the mod saying that names might not make sense given roles.

That's it? Very simply, there were two possibilities:
a) Neto was "stethescope" VT
b) Neto was scum who was too stupid to come up with a fake-claim that looked more vanilla than town PR

As far as I can tell, you're saying that the

only

problem you had with his claim was that (b) was a possibility. I'm loving my vote.

Clarify (b) a bit please. It reads to me that failing to make your fakeclaim look enough like a vanilla is a smart thing to do, and it isn't.

[StrangerCoug]

The average person doesn't have a stethoscope laying around—that's something people in the medical profession are more likely to have on them. I think it's reasonable to think the way I did given I failed to read the mod note about claims.

[StrangerCoug]

None of your three posts were there when I started making my post—I was responding to MacavityLock. Yes, I believed that Netopalis could have been a Mafia doctor.

[StrangerCoug]

SpyreX, way to kill my town read on you with your sudden Percy vote.

[StrangerCoug]

Oh, and

Mod: I anticipate a very hectic next couple of days with Thanksgiving business.

[StrangerCoug]

I have to agree with Percy's counter to MacavityLock here. "The case on Netopalis is pretty dead unless Boxman is scum", according to the way I interpreted it, is "If Boxman is town, then the case against Netopalis is void." The case on somebody being void does not necessarily mean that that person is town. It means only that the person isn't scummy for that.

Unvote: elvis_knits

since she deserves breathing room too

Vote: MacavityLock

[StrangerCoug]

At best, he has a criminally defective scumdar

Elaborate on "criminally defective" please.

[StrangerCoug]

Your implicit scumteam is EK, ML, and me (I guess one of us is SK?), whereas we are literally the least scummy players in this game.

I obviously beg to differ, so what does this tell me?

[StrangerCoug]

@StrangerCoug

: Elaborate on your reasons for voting ML.

He misrepresented you by saying you said that if Boxman were town, it follows that Netopalis would be scum. It didn't necessarily, and I didn't interpret anything you said as such. I'm not going to repeat what you said ten million times.

[StrangerCoug]

WHY did SC not comment on this supposed hammer on Seol??

He just posted, after Spyrex supposedly hammered and Percy seems to have believed it, and SC makes no mention of it.

I'm having a decreased tendency to post in twilight and I was only answering what was asked of me. Regardless, I don't know what to make of Seol right now. It would have been OK by me for him to be lynched, but not the best lynch in my opinion.

SpyreX needs to be kept under very close watch for that fake hammer, though. Iecerint also misled us as to the vote count and needs to be shaken by his neck too.

[StrangerCoug]

SC, I had thought SX was still voting Seol when I voted Seol, but it looks like he'd switched to Percy. That's my mistake, but why do you think it's scummy? It made a quicklynch on Seol less likely rather than more, if anything.

I missed where he said that it wasn't a secret hammer because he accounted for an unvote. Apologies, but that we should keep an eye on SpyreX still stands.

Being "A doublevoter" is not my role.

However, I think the second vote is a function of my role.

----

And the doublevoter is a function of alignment-related roles. I don't see a lot of mini's with town rolecops, nor do I think I've (ever?) seen a mini with a scum doublevoter). I clearly say this doesn't absolve me from being the mystical SK, but.

Help my poor brain make sense of this please. You are not a doublevoter, but you believe the second vote is a function of your role. How so?

[StrangerCoug]

That is one weird role. Hmm...

[StrangerCoug]

SC didn't comment on the whole debacle. He

also

didn't give his scumlist. What he said was this:

He misrepresented you by saying you said that if Boxman were town, it follows that Netopalis would be scum. It didn't necessarily, and I didn't interpret anything you said as such. I'm not going to repeat what you said ten million times.

This was in answer to my question about his vote on ML. Now out of the entire game so far, SC is voting because of one attack on me - and I'm not even sold that it was scummy. It might be opportunistic scum trying to push my wagon, but I don't think introducing

decidable

questions (i.e. direct reference to propositional logic) would be the way to do it. I think at this point in the game it's a pretty minor excuse to vote anyone.

Why would I push your wagon by siding with you in an argument, assuming I interpreted your post correctly? This makes no sense whatsoever.

Right now I believe SpyreX, MacavityLock, and Iecerint to be scum. elvis_knits is off my top three for now.

I would expect scum to react more like SpyreX, in the "I don't care about logic or what you said, it's scummy, la la la, the end".

I personally would expect scum to act unpredictably. You cannot assume that I am going to say "I don't care about logic or what you said, it's scummy, la la la, the end," if you don't mind me using your exact quote, regardless of my alignment.

The way you word this also refutes your thinking that I am scummy.

Granted, SpyreX and I have been relatively quiet about each other. SpyreX does read as if he's buddying up to me, and I've only given a lot of focus on SpyreX just a little while ago.

[StrangerCoug]

Why do you have a death wish, SpyreX?

[StrangerCoug]

My case on SC is as follows:
The Major HoS on Box. I have shown an instance where SC put a Major HoS on a scumbuddy for what amounts to little reason, for what I assume to be distancing purposes. I think he did the same thing here, due to the fact that I can't read anything in Box's play or SC's Day 1 "case" on Box that deserves such a major signal from SC. (Note that FoS's, HoS's, etc exist for signaling only, which is different from the variety of ways [pressure, signaling, actually lynching] votes can be used.)

Way to backtrack. You said that I have an itchy trigger finger when it comes to throwing FoS's and the like as scum, and while the example deserves notice, I threw a major HoS on Boxman in the same sentence I unvoted him. It would make more sense for you to attack my vote on Boxman directly if you think my case on him is weak.

SC's vote on me doesn't make a ton of sense, as I don't think my interpretation of Percy's linking thing was much of a stretch. I also think it's rather interesting that his vote came just 2 days after the following:

Seol is still town right now. His attack on you is sensible, and I think he's dealing with my argument with elvis_knits quite well. Iecerint has improved to a neutral as he's explained away my biggest concern about him to my satisfaction, and MacavityLock is town.

Again, was my attack on Percy so scummy as to push you from "is town" to voting me?

Since when do reads have to be rock solid? You misrepresented Percy, which didn't warrant my keeping my town read on you.

Seol, if I don't believe your claim, I'm hammering you at my first opportunity as I don't know your stance on a lot of people, and you've flown under the radar. My mom, who is a schoolteacher, has been giving me talks about a snow day, and if that's the case, I'm not going to work. I don't post from there.

[StrangerCoug]

Way to backtrack. You said that I have an itchy trigger finger when it comes to throwing FoS's and the like as scum, and while the example deserves notice, I threw a major HoS on Boxman in the same sentence I unvoted him. It would make more sense for you to attack my vote on Boxman directly if you think my case on him is weak.

Absolutely not. I don't think I've ever attacked your Boxman vote, because I don't have a problem with it. There's a big difference between votes and HoS's and why people would use them. Your Boxman vote was originally from page 2 or something, and you stuck with it for a while. That happens all the time, and I don't care about it. It's absolutely the Major HoS after unvoting that bothers me.

You'd have a case if I were a double voter. I'm not, however, so you're attacking me for the Major HoS which

YOU

said, and I remember agreeing, was null coming out of me.

Since when do reads have to be rock solid? You misrepresented Percy, which didn't warrant my keeping my town read on you.

Was my misrep really a reach? If so, was it really the scummiest thing that's happened in this game?

If your misrepresentation was not a reach, then tell me how Boxman being town would have cleared Netopalis.

And no, the scummiest thing that's happened in this game is Boxman's opportunistic replacing out, but Boxman's replacement is dead. You know your case on me to be weak, so you're a very good candidate for second.

[StrangerCoug]

If you're not going to claim, you can forget replying to the cases on you, since you've signed away your death sentence by refusing to do the former. I want MacavityLock to answer me before I kill you, though.

[StrangerCoug]

You'd have a case if I were a double voter. I'm not, however, so you're attacking me for the Major HoS which

YOU

said, and I remember agreeing, was null coming out of me.

It's about

why

you would play the HoS, not that you did it at all. Yes, you use HoS's etc. in both your town and scum play, but that's not the point.

By saying you'd have a case if I were a double voter, I am implying that I still had Netopalis pretty high up there in my scum list. I

STILL

don't see the case on Netopalis.

If your misrepresentation was not a reach, then tell me how Boxman being town would have cleared Netopalis.

Wow, you have entirely missed the thread on this one. If I misrep'ed anything, it had to do with whether or not

Percy

was doing any linking on Day 1. (I still think my complaint was reasonable, though certainly not bulletproof.)

You can do me a big favor and give me an actual answer. I told you to tell me how Boxman being town would clear Netopalis if you are going to deny that you misrepresented Percy. Don't do it and I'm taking back my condemning Seol.

[StrangerCoug]

OK, I but MacavityLock's answer to the linking issue, which means Seol is dead.

Unvote: MacavityLock
Vote: Seol

See the rest of you tomorrow.

[StrangerCoug]

Hey, elvis_knits, you might want to find another target. I'm a bulletproof townie.

[StrangerCoug]

Kevlar.

[StrangerCoug]

Sorry Seol refused to claim, but I wanted some stuff out of MacavityLock before I hammered. I missed the post where you said you wanted info too.

[StrangerCoug]

*realizes what he did and bangs his head against the monitor*

Dear God, I hope you and the SK both hit scum, elvis_knits. If Seol flips town, three other townies die, and there's two Mafia left, that means I just gave the Mafia the win. If Seol is scum, however, then the town's still in this, even if he's the SK. That would mean there are two kills left and the worst case scenario will be a 2:3 LYLO.

I can safely assume you are not a one-shot, can I?

[StrangerCoug]

OK. Percy, you

MUST VIG CORRECTLY TONIGHT

. That will put us in the best position possible. If Seol is the second and final Mafia and you kill the SK or vice versa, town wins, and that's what we want. If there is a third Mafiate, we have more work to do.

[StrangerCoug]

Well, that may work well too. But if you shoot, you must hit scum.

[StrangerCoug]

Oops. You know who I'm talking to.

[StrangerCoug]

Lynch me if I know. You have completely different avatars, and you're not the same gender.

[StrangerCoug]

I really do mean lynch me if I know. You know you can't nightkill me. I've been pushed for calling somebody the wrong gender for pages, and I was town that time. I swear to God I am this time too.

My parents call me my brother's name all the time because our names both start with the same letter, yet we're 6½ years apart and we look completely different. Maybe I picked something more idiotic up from them.

[StrangerCoug]

SC, have you tried ot draw the NK? If so, where did you try?

No. This is the first time I've gotten bulletproof, and I didn't think of that strategy.

[StrangerCoug]

As I said, I thought the game was unbalanced. The Mafia could have lost out of sheer bad luck, but more likely to happen anyway—and I fear it's something I've allowed—the town can lose a lot of people if a lot of kills happen.

Perhaps a better argument would have been it being swingy, but looking at my role, this

MIGHT

make some sense. I realized this between the vig/no vig argument and now, but didn't want to give myself away as bulletproof. I didn't expect three killing roles regardless, however (four if you count the bomb).

That my name makes sense with my role is also why I questioned Netopalis's claim.

[StrangerCoug]

Good point. SC can change his claim if he wants.

SC, CLAIM FIRST!

My role hasn't changed. I am Kevlar, bulletproof townie. My ability doesn't weaken, strengthen, or do anything complicated like that. Strong stuff.

If we're doing popcorn, I actually want MacavityLock to claim next, but if Iecerint insists on going before him, the only thing stopping it is my perception that there should be an attempt to go from scummiest to towniest...

I do not buy that SC failed to read the post before his hammer, where I laid out the potential problem with the night actions, and the town's possibility of being decimated.

I was anxious to hammer Seol after his refusal to claim. I'm not known for my patience even as a moderator (see the start and end of Mini 716).

I do not buy all of SC's vig fishing, and claims that the game was unbalanced if he knew he was a BP townie.

Denying the existence of a role is fishing for it? I don't understand the scum motivation of saying "I don't think we have a vig." Maybe saying "I don't think there is a doc" after a night with no kills is scummy since it implies knowledge of a Mafia roleblocker, but not "I don't think there is a vig." It is understandable for me to think that there was only one of an SK or a full vig and the Mafia—the three of them together in a mini is very unusual.

And if I say I didn't read the details about the claim, lynch me, because I know from looking at it the role as you describe is very complicated.

I do not buy that he didn't think to try to draw nightkills if he was a BP townie.

As I said, first time I've gotten it; therefore, not a role I'm familiar with when it comes to strategy (the latter of which often fails me in general).

[StrangerCoug]

I am willing to claim whenever elvis wants me to. I don't buy SC's claim (bulletproof townie in a game with a bomb?

And a bunch of other ways to die? There's a method to this madness, now that I think about it.

No attempt to draw the NK?

Nope. As I said, didn't occur to me to try.

His noun matching his power perfectly?

Yep. That's why I didn't like the Netopalis claim.

I think he should be lynched as soon as we're done claiming, barring some massive inconsistency in the claims.

Be careful with that statement—depending on how sure elvis_knits is that she got roleblocked, you can just as easily be in big trouble. Open 81 taught me that the scum usually won't block the vig if they know there will be a misvig, and she said she'd shoot one of us. As much money as I want to put on MacavityLock, you look at least as good for scum.

SC is trying to convince us that he's really oblivious to stuff like logic and strategy, but I remember at one point he seemed pretty smart. I think he was the first player to mention "arsonist."

Where did I say anything along the lines that I was oblivious to logic, first of all?

Also, by strategy failing me in general, I mean that I'm not good at it. You say it like it's a brand new concept to me, which it isn't. You can play a game of chess with me, and while I have an opening in that game that I feel serves me well, anybody short of a newcomer can beat me. Play me after this game is over if you don't believe me.

No. Seriously. Play a game of chess with me when this is over if you don't believe I suck at strategy.

I had already figured it out since I could sort out the night actions easier knowing my part in it being the second kill on boxman/hoopla. But how did SC figure it out? Seems like an astute observation, and not fitting with his excuses for vig fishing or his lack of strategy at playing BP.

Arsonist is actually an easy guess to make at there being in the setup. The Mafia has to have killed SensFan and Boxman was scummier than mathcam. I don't know how anything else can be concluded here.

[StrangerCoug]

EBWOP: I meant to say that Open 81 taught me that scum usually won't kill the vig if they know the vig will mishit (but they usually won't block him or her either).

[StrangerCoug]

It's based more on what elvis_knits said than any knowledge that my role gives me. She said she'd also consider Percy, and he might not be a gambler. Hence, why I think Percy is condemned if elvis_knits was roleblocked.

[StrangerCoug]

I have better reason to believe that my bulletproof abilities are confirmed than that elvis_knits got roleblocked, but Percy needed that warning.

[StrangerCoug]

Okay, wait.

SC, you're saying that if the scum knew I was going to shoot a town they would not bother to kill me or to block me (even if they could block).

That sounds good.

So if I was NOT blocked.

That speaks to you being town (like you say) or NK immune due to being SK or GF.

Also that would suggest Percy is town. (He could also be NK immune SK or GF, but if he was hoping to absorb the kill them he would have to explain tomorrow WHY he was still alive, and with you already claiming BP, he can't explain it).

So are you arguing that my night result means that you are BP, there is no mafia RB, and that Percy is town also?

Close. Yes, you should have reason to believe that I am bulletproof, and your explanation that Percy is therefore likely town makes sense to me. Mafia roleblockers are not ruled out, but they have no reason to target you unless Percy is scum. If you were roleblocked, then Percy is fudged.

If so, who do you think is scum?

You have to be thinking Iecerint and ML, and Budja(Konowa)? Yes?

Yes, with Budja most likely being SK of those three.

[StrangerCoug]

And I am ASKING YOU if you are trying to say Percy is town. I'm not telling you I necessarily believe that. I'm trying to figure out what you are saying with your "scum won't kill a vig they think is aimed at town."

I wasn't trying to say that Percy is town because I am bulletproof, no. Before you said it suggests that Percy is town, I felt that he go either way.

Why do you think Budja the SK?

Some of it has to do with process of elimination. Of the living players, I know what I am, you are very likely to be town, Percy's confirmed Mafia if you got roleblocked, I don't think an SK would post the kind of weak cases that MacavityLock has against me, and my gut tells me that Iecerint is not the SK. Who's left?

[StrangerCoug]

Percy, why did you switch SpyreX and elvis_knits?

[StrangerCoug]

I still want to proceed with caution with regards to Percy. I've seen bus drivers as both town and scum, so his claim does not clear him. Of the claims so far, I believe his the least.

[StrangerCoug]

OMG...

I haven't read through all the posts made last night yet... quick skim says Iecerint is claiming to be RBed.

But the Mod has informed me that:

I WAS ROLEBLOCKED.

WTF does this mean?

Well, I already told you part of the answer. Percy is Mafia and I'm ready to vote him when you give me the all-clear (we're not going to have the same thing happen as yesterday!). That both you and Iecerint got blocked is making me scratch my head. How do you roleblock two people? Do scum have a motivator, as you said? Is the Mafia roleblocker a limited-shot role that is allowed to use more than one available roleblock a night? Did we, God forbid, sign up for a bastard mod game?

Budja, I'd like to hear why you think I'm SK as opposed to bulletproof townie (my claim) or NK-immune godfather (one of the possibilities elvis_knits suggested).

[StrangerCoug]

Given the recent discussion, I now think the scumteam is Iecerint/Percy and the SK is Budja. MacavityLock's scumdar needs some adjustment, but there's no way in hell I'm entertaining four Mafia and an SK in a 12-player game.

[StrangerCoug]

Percy is my candidate for Mafia roleblocker also. Ready to vote when everyone else is.

[StrangerCoug]

My "can use more than one shot in a night" power is quite neat, and note that I included this detail

before

Iec claimed. I think the cleanest explanation for two roleblocks is that there weren't, and that Iec has claimed that he was RBed to throw doubt on my claim.

That's a funny wording you chose to use. The "cleanest" explanation? Why not the explanation that makes the most sense to you? Yeah, I think Iecerint's claim is coming out of scum too, but this is lame bussing.

Finally, I wouldn't put it past the mod to include a 1-shot roleblock on the SK role, given your weakness, elvis. I think blocking SpyreX and killing you would make a great deal of sense to the SK - they wouldn't have blocked you as you were going after scumSC, but they'd have been happy to have you dead when you were done.

The vig is weak, so the SK gets powered up to compensate? What the hell are you smoking?

(It's maybe worth noting that, if I were scumNameCop, I could only be scum with the superRBer. I could not be scum with motivator+RBer unless I were like scumNCRBer or something totally absurd like that. This is irrelevant as I am obviously not scumNC, but I figure it's an extra piece of information for you to mess with.)

This points to Iec scum quite definitively in my mind. If Iecerint is the scumNameCop, there probably

isn't

a superRBer. He knows this, and yet is continuing to talk about the existence of a superRB even though (at this point) the existence of such a role hinges

entirely

on Iec's claim of being RBed last night.

At least one of you, most likely both, is scum.

Note also that SC is willing to jump on me right now, and we're nowhere near done (imo). Yet another reason to believe SC scum.

You're screwed, Percy. I said I'd vote when everyone's ready. Not everybody is ready, and I don't want a repeat of the end of Day 2, so I'm hanging on to my vote. You cannot damn me if I do and damn me if I don't.

SC should really just claim SK and tell us who he targetted last night. That could confirm Percy scum.

I am not the SK and I targeted nobody last night. That is regardless of the other two alignments I could be.

[StrangerCoug]

The vig is not weak - it's different, and I'd say a stronger role, than your standard vig.

Tell me how that doesn't contradict this:

Finally, I wouldn't put it past the mod to include a 1-shot roleblock on the SK role, given your weakness, elvis.

[StrangerCoug]

I'm playing with the idea whether the SK has a block ability myself, but I find it implausible. I don't think we can afford a second chance of confirming my NK-immunity, which throws out an idea I've had.

[StrangerCoug]

Hey, Budja, Percy may be confirmed scum, but did you read his post about letting him have a chance to respond before he goes? You pretty much solidified yourself in my scum list, and I still like you as the SK.

[StrangerCoug]

Percy's SK claim puzzles me somewhat. The kill flavor fits with Percy's claimed targets, but I still think he could very well be the RBer seeing as I am town and elvis_knits threatened to kill one of Percy and me. Then again, I still think Iecerint is lying about getting roleblocked.

I could take a gamble with Percy being right with his second claim and see if Budja is Mafia instead of SK. elvis_knits, MacavityLock, and I are town and Iecerint is Mafia. I just need to know which way around the other two are.

[StrangerCoug]

Mod: Ill. I hope to recover soon.

[StrangerCoug]

Mod: Should be well now.

Waiting on MacavityLock.

[StrangerCoug]

Waiting on MacavityLock.

Are you saying you're ready to vote Percy?

Percy seems a surer shot than Budja, so I'm ready to vote the former, but I want your reread done first. We could potentially lose if we don't play this right and I want to know what insight you are given.

[StrangerCoug]

I think everyone needs to say who they think is the SK at this point and who they think is the mafiers.

Iecerint is Mafia for sure and the other two scum are Percy and Budja. Right now I think Percy is more likely Mafia than Budja.

[StrangerCoug]

Iec makes no sense as the SK to me either.

[StrangerCoug]

Budja, if you were the SK, you would not initially refuse to counterclaim and then only admit to being it just now.

I think I've got it—Percy and Budja are the Mafia. I don't believe Iecerint to be the SK, which

SHOULD

leave MacavityLock by process of elimination, but Iecerint is supposed to have cleared him if he's town.

Iecerint, does your ability allow you to find the SK?

[StrangerCoug]

And we all agree that we're not likely to have started with 9:2:1. Hmm...

[StrangerCoug]

The SK, I'm afraid, has to be one of Percy, Budja, and me...

I hate to do this, but we're now dealing with a three-way SK counterclaim. Which means

BOTH

Percy and Budja are effed, mostly because I effed myself by suggesting Percy and Budja are scum together with no good arsonist candidate.

I do have NK-immunity, but I am not Kevlar; I am Keanu Reeves. Everybody hates me.

I killed mathcam on Night 1 because he wasn't a likely target for either the doctor or the Mafia, and I killed SpyreX on Night 2 to play WIFOM games (why would somebody kill someone calling them town?). I claimed bulletproof on Day 2 to try to get elvis_knits to kill someone else, thus making it easier for me to win.

Please lynch Percy. We know he wasn't a bus driver, seeing as I could kill SpyreX without getting redirected to elvis_knits.

Vote: Percy

[StrangerCoug]

SC, unvote please.
We are all outed now, surely a nolynch > Percy lynch. We'll let the town guess who the real SK is .

Not lynching is likely to help you and Percy most. You and I pick different targets and you win as long as I don't pick one of you.

SC, why does Keanu Reeves light people on fire?

Because I light the world on fire with my movie performances. Apparently, I bring notoriety.

Something came to me while I was at work, too: elvis_knits has a redirect on her, so if I (or the real SK, if I faked—let's put this in her perspective) get lynched, she has a 50-50 chance of redirecting the kill to the other Mafiate, and if she successfully does so, then we will have one of the easiest LYLO's on this site. So something for you guys to chew on.

[StrangerCoug]

Yeah. You guys.

And I think my flavor's weird too.

[StrangerCoug]

Vote: No Lynch

[StrangerCoug]

Yep. I just signed Budja's death warrant.

[StrangerCoug]

Oh, you want to lose prisoner's dilemma, Budja? That works too.

[StrangerCoug]

Oh, and may I remind everyone that I cannot be nightkilled. Therefore, for Budja to be able to win, he must be SK with a win condition that says he has to make up half the game. If that is the case and he wants the win, he and I to are kill different townies, leaving me to be endgamed. If I am telling the truth about being the SK, Budja is effed as I can simply kill a townie to counter his refusal to kill tonight and force PD.

[StrangerCoug]

Damn you SC! You gave Budja the win.

I ought to damn Budja for throwing me off guard, honestly. I was led to believe that I was untargetable once Boxman and Percy were dead (that's why I bussed them), but oh well. He deserves the credit for his clever win.

Mafia QuickTopic

Also, by strategy failing me in general, I mean that I'm not good at it. You say it like it's a brand new concept to me, which it isn't. You can play a game of chess with me, and while I have an opening in that game that I feel serves me well, anybody short of a newcomer can beat me. Play me after this game is over if you don't believe me.

No. Seriously. Play a game of chess with me when this is over if you don't believe I suck at strategy.

Are we on, elvis_knits? That post was made in earnest...

(And while I'm talking to you, sorry about that threatening post I made. I got over my head.)

[StrangerCoug]

I'll have the roles up after I get back from a late-night diner run.

@Stranger: You were nominally untargetable (it prevented elvis from redirecting your kill the night before), but the Arsonist's kills were unpreventable, which overrode your passive ability. As you'll see when the full role PMs are up.

Even if you were guilty of a mod error, I would argue that Budja should still deserve credit for what he did.

[StrangerCoug]

Oh, please. I'd like to know where it says that the arsonist's kills cannot be prevented.