Mini 867- TTGL Mafia: GAME OVER: Roles posted.

[MonkeyMan576]

FOS: Seraphim

Claiming as an unlynchable, unkillable killer who happened to kill town day 1?

Sounds almost like a jester, hence the reason only an FOS and not a vote.

[MonkeyMan576]

I can kind of understand your motive for killing the Man of the Box, and I'm going to assume that we're not going to get more of a reason than you've given for why you chose to do it now...

Okay, I'm not particularly worried about you.

----

Chaco, why Jahudo?
Jebus, why xofelf?

@MonkeyMan, what is the best strategy to employ with Jesters?

Actually, the best strategy is to ignore them if you can. If you have no viable scum candidates at the end of day 1, they might be a good alternative, but it's better to go after scum than third party.

[MonkeyMan576]

What happens if we try to kill someone who is unlynchable? I feel like this question came up in a fl game before...

I'm willing to go along with Sera's claim for now. I don't need to know his abilities or junk, but he better not get lazy. Better not.

Vote: MonkeyMan576

You're willing to go along with his unrealistic claim, so automatically everyone else is?

[MonkeyMan576]

Actually, the best strategy is to ignore them if you can. If you have no viable scum candidates at the end of day 1, they might be a good alternative, but it's better to go after scum than third party.

Sorry to interject, but ignoring them is a losing battle. I feel it's best just to lynch them and get them out of the way, so long as it won't end the game.

I appreciate that opinion, but I disagree with it...getting scum day 1 is always the optimal strategy.

[MonkeyMan576]

FOS: Seraphim

Claiming as an unlynchable, unkillable killer who happened to kill town day 1?

Sounds almost like a jester, hence the reason only an FOS and not a vote.

Um...so you think he's a jester with a daykill? Really?

Also, "let's not lynch X because he might be a jester" is a bad argument. If you think someone is a jester on day 1, you generally want to lynch them anyway.

I think he might be fakeclaiming the kill in order to get lynched.

The jester speculation is IMO incrediblyscummy.

What's scummy is expecting people to just assume you are telling the truth.

Vote: Seraphim

For now.

I, for one, am willing to try. vote:Seraphim

Are you voting him thinking he is a jester, lying scum, or just to test his claim?

[MonkeyMan576]

Wow... Massive fail. If you are really Kamina, you suck at it. Way to screw town.

Anyways, it is true that the giga drill breaker post could mean that he is indeed Kamina, but it could have just as well been a bluff (he could have sent his choice via PM). So, no clue there.

The claim is highly unbelievable as the role would be really broken (even if it's momentary).

Btw, I once played a game with an unlynchable townie. He was lynched day 1, but he didn't die. The day just ended with a no-lynch.

In conclusion, though Seraphim's action may seem scummy, there's really nothing to prove his role wrong (other than speculation about the setup, which isn't good).

So are you saying that unless a role can be proven wrong, you shouldn't be voted on or lynched?

95%(or more) percent of lynches aren't based on proven fact, in my experience.

[MonkeyMan576]

EDWOP: Screwed the post. Here's the good one:

Wow... Massive fail. If you are really Kamina, you suck at it. Way to screw town.

Anyways, it is true that the giga drill breaker post could mean that he is indeed Kamina, but it could have just as well been a bluff (he could have sent his choice via PM). So, no clue there.

The claim is highly unbelievable as the role would be really broken (even if it's momentary).

Btw, I once played a game with an unlynchable townie. He was lynched day 1, but he didn't die. The day just ended with a no-lynch.

In conclusion, though Seraphim's action may seem scummy, there's really nothing to prove his role wrong (other than speculation about the setup, which isn't good).

So are you saying that unless a role can be proven wrong, you shouldn't be voted on or lynched?

95%(or more) percent of lynches aren't based on proven fact, in my experience.

No. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that, currently, his action is just a bunch of wifom, and thus nonconclusive for me to lay down a vote.

Way to avoid my question. What level of conclusiveness would there need to be for you to vote? And WIFOM is only one element of the case against him. His actions seperate of WIFOM is scummy in an of itself.

[MonkeyMan576]

Judging from all the reactions, MonkeyMan's is quite clearly the poorest:

I think he might be fakeclaiming the kill in order to get lynched.

With that being among many of his gems.

Unvote
Vote: MonkeyMan576

How is that a poor reaction? I don't assume anything.

[MonkeyMan576]

Sounds almost like a jester, hence the reason only an FOS and not a vote.

Actually, the best strategy is to ignore them if you can. If you have no viable scum candidates at the end of day 1, they might be a good alternative, but it's better to go after scum than third party.

You other awesome reactions.

Anywho, time to find your scumbuddy.

Unvote

Actually, the best strategy is to ignore them if you can. If you have no viable scum candidates at the end of day 1, they might be a good alternative, but it's better to go after scum than third party.

Sorry to interject, but ignoring them is a losing battle. I feel it's best just to lynch them and get them out of the way, so long as it won't end the game.

Obvious coaching to scum buddy.

Vote: Chaco

Uh, whatever. You are quick to come to conclusions. You must be the best mafia player ever.

I still stand by my opinion on jesters, my vote is based on that his behavior has gone from being jester-like to scummy.

[MonkeyMan576]

Either he is lying about the day not ending or his is lying about being lynchproof. It would behoove us to find out which.

[MonkeyMan576]

Either he is lying about the day not ending or his is lying about being lynchproof. It would behoove us to find out which.

What? Why would you assume that?

Let's just say it would be very unlikely that both unlikely scenarios would both be true. More of a hunch than a definitive statement.

[MonkeyMan576]

Monkeyman, perhaps I am not lying?

Unvote
Vote: Monkeyman

False choice is false choice. There is the chance I am not lying which is the truth.

So we're supposed to not lynch you on the 5% chance you are telling the truth?

[MonkeyMan576]

I don't think it's the only option we have, it's just the proverbial giant elephant in the room. He's claimed responsibility for killing a townie, and not given good justification for doing it, besides hoping he'd get lucky.

Either I want more justification or my vote stays.

[MonkeyMan576]

Actually, I believe it is an FOS and not a vote at this point...but you get my drift.

[MonkeyMan576]

Vi, why do you want to lynch Yos?

For spearheading this lynch like it's the only option we have.

Well, it is. Duh. If he's telling the truth, then we lynch him, find out __ he's telling the truth, and then find scum. It's simply the correct move here.

And before Rule 18 was clarified and thus it was only possible to attempt to lynch Seraphim OR lynch someone else, would you say that his lynch was the only option?
(Also, nice lack of "if" )

That and calling out Seraphim like there's an out-there chance he's a n00by inexperienced player and not someone who has been on this site for about as long as I have (not to mention someone who /ins for a lot of bastard games).

Did you read my post? I specifically said that I did NOT think Seraphim is a likely to be VI who'd daykill someone and then lie about his role as town, which is part of the reason we SHOULD lynch him, because I think he's probably either telling the truth or lying scum.

I don't read anyone else's posts and I do just fine

I can see a pro-Town motive for killing Boxman. Contrast

On the other hand, there's

absolutly no reason

for a pro-town day-vig to vig early in the day instead of later, when he might actually hit scum. None at all.

His actions so far this game would make the most sense if he's a scum day-killer, like a day-SK or a mafia with a one-shot kill, running a gambit to try to use his daykill to "confirm" himself.

That's not the only explination,

but just based on his daykill and the weak explination he gave for it (not to mention his SK-claim before that), it makes the most sense.

which is so ambiguously closed-minded that I find it scummy.

What's a convincing pro-town reason to kill another townie? I can't think of one. Why not wait until you have more information?

[MonkeyMan576]

Yos, if Sera is lying, why hasn't there been a Kamina counterclaim?

Are you assuming Kamina is town? If so, why?

[MonkeyMan576]

Just to clarify my stance, I believe that hammering Seraphim will do nothing. Day will not end, fl will shrug and say to keep playing, and then we'll all unvote and find scum.

Now let's here more from Jebus, xofelf and Cacho. They really haven't given an opinion on Sera yet.

Why do you believe this?

[MonkeyMan576]

Based on past games with Seraphim, I don't think he'd make a lying gambit as town.

Most townies don't lie...this doesn't explain why you don't think he's scum.

[MonkeyMan576]

Reasoning above...

Vote: Seraphim

Wow. Not only did you fail to unvote, but you voted someone you were already voting. Good job

[MonkeyMan576]

Didn't Vi used to have a FE avatar as well (Mia, IIRC)?

Any roads, I still think it's a waste of time to lynch Sera because of the kill. But well, that's just me.

They actually made a high-quality version of Mia's OA. Official fanservice is go :arrow:

Seraphim has definitely been lynched by now; talking about it at this point is basically pointless.
Now that that's over with I think we need to hurry up and find scum already. Like Chaco, specifically.

Why do you think he is scum again?

[MonkeyMan576]

What do you think of Monkey voting off of it?

Considering MonkeyMan has a tendency to be a policy lynch and was already voting for Seraphim at the time, not much.

I'm insulted, just because I get lynched day 1 every game doesn't make me a policy lynch...

[MonkeyMan576]

Snow Bunny never answered my question, so something fishy there...

Unvote:
Vote: Snow Bunny

[MonkeyMan576]

:shrug:, why not?

Unvote:
Vote: Forbiddanlight

[MonkeyMan576]

I'm not scum? I'm not sure where you get your reasoning from.

We have plenty of time left in the day and plenty of time to explore various hypothesis. Your insistance that we only play one way and only use one path isn't very logical or pro town.

[MonkeyMan576]

Your insistance that we only play one way and only use one path isn't very logical or pro town.

Please describe this "one way" and "one path" to me.

I can't imagine the day ending on a no-lynch if we reach majority on a non-player. Wouldn't the votes just not count?

FL treats lynches of non-players, whether its the mod, or just not a player in the game, as a NO LYNCH.
SO STOP THE NO LYNCH DISCUSSION

UNVOTE
VOTE: COBALT

I am not advocating a no lynch. I just want to see what happens if I vote her.

Snow Bunny is at the top of my scum list right now for lurking.

[MonkeyMan576]

Sigh, talk about making a mountain out of a molehill.

Unvote:
Vote: Chaco

[MonkeyMan576]

Yes. Shouldn't I be?

[MonkeyMan576]

I figured it was obvious?

Claim now .

There you go.

[MonkeyMan576]

I'm not against the Chaco wagon, he seems to be kind of defensive, so I want to see where it goes. We need to have some leads in order to make an informed lynch, I figure I will press Snow Bunny after(if) Chaco claims.

[MonkeyMan576]

Not exactly standard.

What has socio done that warrants killing him?

[MonkeyMan576]

I did...I still don't think it makes him obvscum.

[MonkeyMan576]

LOL, definately a post restriction.

[MonkeyMan576]

It's 9 pages in, nobody is obvscum. He's a good start, though.
Vi? You said you would comment on him?

Either it's a fake post restriction - in which case we immediately kill him the first time he tries anything funny with it - or it's a genuine post restriction, in which case if nothing else it's entertaining.

At this time I'm on the fence about SP; half his posts are things I can fully agree with and the other half (like this most recent one) aren't. I'm disappointed that he didn't bother to try and confirm whether he had a post restriction; some mods say "LOL you have a post restriction and can't tell anyone" which is neither fun nor works (as in SP should be able to find a way around that stipulation).

Even so offering to off SocioPath purely on the basis of having a post restriction doesn't change my mind about Chaco at all. The only thing that would give me pause is a role in this setup, which

I'm intimately familiar with

(read: it almost got me lynched regardless of what I did in the topic) and came from a setup that forbiddanlight is not only guaranteed to know about but would likely steal from. (Giant's Mask btw)

TMI.

[MonkeyMan576]

Snow Bunny never answered my question, so something fishy there...

Unvote:
Vote: Snow Bunny

Sorry, which question again?

Snow Bunny is at the top of my scum list right now for lurking.

You do know I was V/LA, right?

I'm getting scum vibes from MM right now, but I still don't have much time to elaborate that now.

About SP, he's not striking me as scum, and the post restriction seems real to me. In general, I'm getting a townish vibe from him.

@Chaco: Why exactly SP as your would-be target? Just because his role, which you guess?

Nothing like some OMGUS. Convinent that you had enough time to dodge my original question, but not really answer it, and then were V/LA when pressed, and now conveniently enough you target me, after I've voted you, but you don't have time to elaborate.

Unvote:
Vote: Snow Bunny

[MonkeyMan576]

Snow Bunny never answered my question, so something fishy there...

Unvote:
Vote: Snow Bunny

Sorry, which question again?

No. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that, currently, his action is just a bunch of wifom, and thus nonconclusive for me to lay down a vote.

Way to avoid my question.

What level of conclusiveness would there need to be for you to vote?

And WIFOM is only one element of the case against him. His actions seperate of WIFOM is scummy in an of itself.

[MonkeyMan576]

Yeah, I'm voting you for that. You used it as an excuse not to vote. But when pressed on why you weren't voting, you don't give specifics. Basically you don't feel that you need to elaborate you views on anything, which is scummy.

[MonkeyMan576]

@MonkeyMan: Did you think Chaco was at L-2 before you placed your vote? Did you check the vote count and read the posts before you before making your own post? Why did you miss Socio's post?

I was aware of the vote count.

[MonkeyMan576]

I saw Monkey's vote, remembered that the last vote count had Chaco at 4, but forgot Socio had unvoted in one of his posts. Counting mistake.
Why aren't we pressuring SP? His post restriction seems to make it close to impossible to communicate effectively. I find it more likely that a really severe PR is faked.
Also, I don't think MM denied placing the L-1 vote after I mentioned it. Then he says he was aware of the VC. So why did he call for a claim if he knew it was not L-1?

I already answered that. You're beating a dead horse.

[MonkeyMan576]

In Post 193 of this game, you tell me you are aware you put Chaco at L-1. In Post 220 you said were aware of the vote count. Which is it?

As far as I know the vote was at level 1. If it wasn't level 1, then I was obviously incorrect.

[MonkeyMan576]

I understand trying to get reactions and everything, but I really don't get the bru-ha-ha.

Can you extrapolate on what you think is odd Yosarian? I'd rather not have to roleclaim.

[MonkeyMan576]

Just nipping it in the bud. If you make a case at the last second when the pressure is mounting it might not be listened to.

[MonkeyMan576]

I didn't say I wasn't going to claim, I said I'd prefer not too. Stop twisting words.

FOS: Cobalt

[MonkeyMan576]

Um, why would I FOS someone that was coaching me?

You are seriously making no sense, Socio.

[MonkeyMan576]

I thought cobalt was your number one suspect?

[MonkeyMan576]

Wow, two of my suspects spearing my wagon. Who would have thought that?

Vote: Cobalt

Socio was obviously killed for a reason.

[MonkeyMan576]

Huh?

You're admitting you're aligned with Chaco?

[MonkeyMan576]

Ah, my bad.

When you said "I thought yours would end the day", I had forgotten that he had already claimed a kill.

I'm not sure I agree about Seraphim and the daykill, it's dangerous to jump to conclusions.

[MonkeyMan576]

It's either Yos or snow as they're now pushing the Monkey lynch, who is a red herring and has looked like an easy target all day.

...what?

Quite a few people have voted or expressed suspicion on Monkeyman, Jahudo, because he's been acting scummy-odd all game. I find it odd for you to single me out.

Anyway, I dislike that daykill. If there are two daykillers, they're probably not both town.

It's easy to pin somebody as acting "odd" when they are under the microscope the whole game. Being active early game isn't scummy, lurking is.

I think both daykills are suspicious, myself, I find it odd that you would favor one over the other.

[MonkeyMan576]

My point is that I seem to have a playstyle that attracts attention for some reason?

[MonkeyMan576]

Back to my original vote...

Unvote:
Vote: Snow_Bunny

We need some activity(esp from the lurkers).

[MonkeyMan576]

Yes.

[MonkeyMan576]

okie dokie.. i have read the things i missed.. and my brain did explode... how in the hell did SP die? twould be nice to figure that out... i'm gonna have to do another run through.

But, that's gonna have to be in a couple hours... my attention has been dragged elsewhere, yet again.

He was (probably) daykilled...no one has taken responsibility. It sucks that we are minus a double voter though.

[MonkeyMan576]

I'm here. *waves*

But you're listening to the rule of cool T_T.

[MonkeyMan576]

I'm gonna make a plug for my Star Wars themed game which is in queue now...we need people to sign up:).

[MonkeyMan576]

Is there a reason he hasn't been prodded then?

He has been prodded once already. He still has two left, since he's posted since that prod. I post mod notes in the votecounts, so you might have missed them.

[MonkeyMan576]

Monkey is scum. Trust me.

I'll trust you only if you're right. But if he flips town, then we can't trust you. And if we can't trust you, you must be lying scum. And if you're lying scum, we lynch you tomorrow. That sound about right?

Sounds about damn right to me! I'm that confident Monkey is scum.

Of course, SB doesn't actually have the time or inclination to actually build a case against me(or post anything useful whatsoever), so the only thing she has going for her is that she thinks she believes I'm scum more than I believe she's scum.

[MonkeyMan576]

Hmmph, do you realize how painful it is for me to read posts from a sad, weak, uninspired person like you? Without hot blood, your posts are harder to read than it is to swim through molasses

Well, it's your fault you give me such an epic-less character.

That's because I knew you didn't have the hot blood to handle a REAL role, you nonconforming passive wench.

Mod note: Just to be clear I am not commenting on Snow Bunny's actual role whatsoever, whether she has an awesome role or a not so awesome one. I would not appreciate speculation along these lines

@Snow_Bunny: Do you think scum aren’t given safeclaims from people in team Dai Gurren? If so, wouldn’t the game be breakable by a character claim?

Do you think only MM was going for an easy mislynch on the voting miscount, or do you think Cobalt or someone else was in on it too?

That's a common problem in theme games: mass name claim. It can break most games in an instant if scum is not wise enough. Any roads, why are you asking me this? MM didn't supposed Kamina was town, thus, I'm guessing he doesn't have a Dai Gurren Dan role. It would have been obvious otherwise that Kamina is town. Also, there can't be a TTGL without Kamina. That would be, like, crazy.

Or the mod doesn't have things in place to prevent...problems like these from arising ^-^. I'm confident that a massclaim would lead you nowhere. I also do NOT advocate attempting it.

Yes, I also think MM was going for an easy mislynch there. I've seen cases in previous games where mafia have tried that early on, based on a bad votecount.

This is crazy talk. Only scum know for sure who is in the town and who is in the mafia. So to suggest that me not guessing that Kamina is town, makes me scum is not only absurd, but super scummy on your part. It implies that you DO know who is in the town and the mafia. And if you DO know, then you MUST be scum.

And I was not going for a mislynch in any way shape or form. I believed that Seraphim would flip scum.

[MonkeyMan576]

I think it's more of a slip from you, Snow Bunny. As I explained in my post.

[MonkeyMan576]

Chaco: Please don't instant lynch anyone. Your ability, if used to end the day early without a lynch consensuss, only hurts the town, becuase it just means we get less wagon info then we should.

There's a three-person wagon on Snow_Bunny right now. Why aren't you on it?

Because for the moment I'd rather be voting a lurker. Activity in this game sucks, and it was especally bad when I cast my lurker-vote. Town must never allow the game to stall out, ever, or town loses. It just happened to me again in a recently completed game, Warewolves of Millers Hollow.

Snow_Bunny is an active lurker. She's not actually posting any content, and is scummy.

[MonkeyMan576]

Snow_Bunny is an active lurker. She's not actually posting any content, and is scummy.

That's not true either. She's actually been trying quite hard to get us to lynch you, for one thing. You may think that's scummy, but it's certainly content, by any sense of the word.

90% of her posts have no actual content besides saying that I'm scummy. She only gave the supposed slip reason when pressed.

[MonkeyMan576]

Except the town usually has no info going into night one, we actually have more info than we usually have.

[MonkeyMan576]

This sounds like a way to excuse further lurking to me. If you don't think you can participate ask for a replacement...

FOS: xofelf

[MonkeyMan576]

What's the difference between lurking and not posting? They're the same as far as I'm concerned...I'm close to changing my vote by the way.

[MonkeyMan576]

I'm getting the increasing feeling SB is my lyncher.

[MonkeyMan576]

Also, on a side note, if I'm right and at least one of the lurkers is scum, Jahudo is their most likely scum buddy. I really don't like the way he's trying to prevent me from pressuring the lurkers; town should always be in favor of going after lurkers, and the fact he's trying to pressure me into not doing so makes me wonder if he's Xofelf or Jebus's scum partner.

I agree with this.

FOS: Jahudo

I also don't like that SB doesn't feel that she has to defend her position.

[MonkeyMan576]

@lurker voters:
What is the endgame of voting a lurker like xofelf, who I believe is just having V/LA issues? Do you lynch them if they don't show up after a certain period of time? Say deadline is today and nothing is changed. Would you rather lynch xofelf, who has little-to-no connections, or someone like Jahudo who could have connections with everybody? Me, I'd vote Jahudo. But that's just me.

I'm getting the increasing feeling SB is my lyncher.

Why? Is it an overall feeling you have from her focusing on you? Or does a particular post or posts maker her sound like a lyncher?

She seems hell bent on me getting lynched and seems to want to discourage any discussion of other candidates or possibilities. Plus her constantly calling me scum every post I attack her is appeal to emotion. "You wish scum!". "Let's lynch monkeyman already!".
She's not recognizing that there are a good many players that are suspicious of her behavior and that she is just as good a candidate as me(if not more so) at this point.

@yos: Jester speculation is not scummy. This is an FL game, which from what I understand, tends to be non-traditional. That's where I was coming from. My comment about Seraphim being unlynchable was just me stating my opinion that it was a scummy claim, and easily testible. Seraophim seemed to resist the idea of testing his claim, which would leave on to believe he was lying. And Snow Bunny has been active lurking the whole game, so there's nothing "silly" about calling her out.

Basically I've been constantly attacked for having opinions, it seems like.

[MonkeyMan576]

She seems hell bent on me getting lynched and seems to want to discourage any discussion of other candidates or possibilities. Plus her constantly calling me scum every post I attack her is appeal to emotion. "You wish scum!". "Let's lynch monkeyman already!".

Yes, she has been devoting quite a bit of energy to getting you lynched. Do you think that trying very hard to get someone lynched, using techniques like repetition and such to emphasize how serious you are about trying to run up a person and to increase the pressure on them, is really an inherent scum tell? I see pro-town people do that exact same thing all the time; I do it myself, sometimes, when I'm really sure of myself.

I certainly understand that you don't like it, since it's aimed at you, but I'm not clear how that's supposed to be a scumtell. Could you explain?

Consistantly using appeal to emotion rather than logical arguments is a scumtell.

She's not recognizing that there are a good many players that are suspicious of her behavior and that she is just as good a candidate as me(if not more so) at this point.

I don't get what you're saying here. You think that, because people are suspicious of her, she should...not be attacking you? Why?

She has every right to attack me, but she's acting like her town clout is significantly more than mine is, which is not true, in my opinion. Trying to overreach your clout and discourage discussion from other people is scummy. She should acknowledge the arguments against her if she wants her arguments to be recognized.

@yos: Jester speculation is not scummy.

Jester speculation is always a bad idea. It was especially absurd in this case since it didn't really make any sense.

I'm not going to call it a scumtell here, because I don't really know why scum would be motivated to either prevent or cause the lynch of someone unlynchable, but it's just not a good idea for you to ever do as town.

Seraphim's behavior was erratic and it seemed to me to be a possible jester situation. If he was a jester, then it would be good for the town to know about it so they could make an informed decision.

My comment about Seraphim being unlynchable was just me stating my opinion that it was a scummy claim, and easily testible.

But that's not what you said...

So I'm restating my position so it is more clearly understood.

And Snow Bunny has been active lurking the whole game, so there's nothing "silly" about calling her out.

Huh? Like you just, said that she's been trying quite hard to get you lynched. That's pretty much the exact opposite of "active lurking".

No, active lurking can include posting without content. If she had a decent case against me, then it would be one thing. But she doesn't, and doesn't feel the need to elaborate on her case, and her pressuring others to vote on a weak case is scummy

[MonkeyMan576]

She seems hell bent on me getting lynched and seems to want to discourage any discussion of other candidates or possibilities. Plus her constantly calling me scum every post I attack her is appeal to emotion. "You wish scum!". "Let's lynch monkeyman already!".

Yes, she has been devoting quite a bit of energy to getting you lynched. Do you think that trying very hard to get someone lynched, using techniques like repetition and such to emphasize how serious you are about trying to run up a person and to increase the pressure on them, is really an inherent scum tell? I see pro-town people do that exact same thing all the time; I do it myself, sometimes, when I'm really sure of myself.

I certainly understand that you don't like it, since it's aimed at you, but I'm not clear how that's supposed to be a scumtell. Could you explain?

Consistantly using appeal to emotion rather than logical arguments is a scumtell.

I wouldn't describe what she's been doing as an "appeal to emotions". More like just constantly repeating "I'd like to lynch player X", which is a common tactic used to demonstrate how serious someone is and how committed they are to a wagon. Glork, for example, does that all the time. I don't have a problem with people doing that.

It's fine to be enthusiastic about a lynch, but you shouldn't respond to someone's counterargument with witty remarks as opposed to actual arguments. Her argument is weak, and her insistance despite the weakness of her argument, and her discouraging of discussion is scummy.

[MonkeyMan576]

The SB/MM dispute is going nowhere, xofelf could be a good compromise.

Unvote:
Vote: Xofelf

[MonkeyMan576]

Yeah, there's a difference between a valid excuse(being sick) and showing no interest in playing. The fact that you haven't asked for a replacement points to scum in my book.

[MonkeyMan576]

@xof: Can you post some game-related opinions? Even if its only about 1 person or 1 event while you rest up.

@fl 448: I agree

Then we have the enormous slip about Kamina. He doubts Kamina is town. Why would he doubt about this if he had a townie role? This makes no sense! I know we should throw logic away, but when scum is so blatantly obvious we can't just ignore it.

I need to go back to this because I still don't see the slip here. I thought Monkey was saying that only scum know for sure if team gurren characters can be fakeclaims, so you can't confirm someone based on character. Does Monkey actually say he thinks Kamina is more likely scum than town?

No I don't, Snow_bunny is twisting my words, which shows that her case is weak in that she can't use my actual positions.

[MonkeyMan576]

Unless your role PM says for sure than a character is town, saying that you are 100% certain that any character is of any alignment is scummy. My point was that only scum know for sure who is town, and my point still stands.

[MonkeyMan576]

You're assumptions on the nature of the town and mafia is dangerous. FL games are rarely that simple. I would be willing to prove that you are wrong through my lynch, but I don't think that the town would benefit from the loss of my powers.

[MonkeyMan576]

[MonkeyMan576]

Xof's lack of content is not a scumtell in my opinion. I see it as a playstyle tell. Really I can't find a single scum or town tell on the girl. Lynching her before I have a reason to think she is scum (besides random odds) make it a bad lynch for me right now.

Vi, didn't you say yourself that we're getting what we should expect from xof? I know we shouldn't excuse her for that, but how sure are you that this is a good lynch for finding scum?

The Xof wagon is not necessarily because she has a definate scumtell, it's because here play is anti-town. If she's not going to do anything useful, she should be lynched.

[MonkeyMan576]

I'm not against it, but I'm not sure I want to derail the xof wagon.

[MonkeyMan576]

Vote: Extention

[MonkeyMan576]

@slicey - I'm not sure how you figure that posting before the daykill makes you a more likely daykill suspect.

[MonkeyMan576]

@Yos: Your defense in 427 supported my original hypothesis, so I still like my case.

@Slicey: Read the mod's red text in post 456. FL practically says the flavor in the first paragraph of the opening post is true. Anti-Spirals can be town. Scum is somebody new. Does that change your theory that a force lyncher is also a cult recruiter?

Can be town? Possibly. Are they? I don't think so. Again, Anti-Spiral makes sense as a Cult Recruiter in my eyes.

Monkey, you would have had to been online to PM a daykill to FL. Those were the people online between FL's votecount which confirmed Socio as a double voter and when Socio was killed. Thus one of those had to be the killer.

You could have been online without posting. Or they could have sent the kill in through the scum forum. In fact I would go so far that killing someone the same time you were posting would be pretty clumsy scum play.

[MonkeyMan576]

Slicey, how confident on a scale of 1 to 10 are you that there is a cult?

[MonkeyMan576]

If Chaco is a cult leader, he should definately be a viable lynch...

But I want more reasoning on why you think he's a cult leader...

[MonkeyMan576]

That's not good enough reasoning, and it sounds like you might be trying to spread paranoia and trying to get a town-chaco lynched for some reason...

Unvote:
Vote: Slicey

[MonkeyMan576]

More like:

There is a cult in this game.
Chaco has been scummy.
His claim and claimed abilities (or unclaimed abilities) make me to believe that he's a cult leader.
Therefore, Chaco is cult leader.

Jahudo, the word cult is in my role PM.

You have information on Chaco's unclaimed abilities? Elaborate on how his claim makes him cult.

[MonkeyMan576]

Okay, I haven't watched most of the show, but it sounds convincing.

Unvote:
Vote: Chaco

[MonkeyMan576]

Yeah, note that someone made a convincing case that I agreed with, and that you agreed with? Why would I withhold my vote?

[MonkeyMan576]

Yeah, note that someone made a convincing case that I agreed with, and that you agreed with? Why would I withhold my vote?

I'm more bothered by the following:

Chaco: OMGUS VOTE SLICEY!!!!

Monkey: VOTE SLICEY!!!

Slicey: here is the case

Monkey: oh snap, vote chaco!!!!

The voting slicey bit right after chaco does it is suspect.

If you say so. I think withholding your opinion and votes is a lot more suspect. My pressuring of slicey helped lead to his elaborating a case on chaco, if his case was poor, I would have kept my vote on slicey, but since it wasn't, voting Chaco was entirely appropriate.

[MonkeyMan576]

Interesting catch, Ray...

IGMEOY

, SB

[MonkeyMan576]

If you say so. I think withholding your opinion and votes is a lot more suspect. My pressuring of slicey helped lead to his elaborating a case on chaco, if his case was poor, I would have kept my vote on slicey, but since it wasn't, voting Chaco was entirely appropriate.

Eh, your voting him hardly did anything at all.

You voted slicey for a rather contrived reason and then he elaborated on his case and then you said "that's not good enough" and then he gave it in slightly more detail and then you vote switched.

It's suspicious.

I think it was a lot more detail. Certainly enough for a vote, as your vote showed...

[MonkeyMan576]

I think it was a lot more detail. Certainly enough for a vote, as your vote showed...

I had intent to vote before that.

In addition, I didn't vote for the dude making the case

directly after

the person I would then proceed to vote did the same.

I don't hold back my opinions, or votes, which are extentions of opinions. I don't usually vote strategically, that is, when it looks more or less scummy, I vote when my opinion changes. Waiting to vote sounds a lot more scummy, which is what you're doing...

[MonkeyMan576]

I don't hold back my opinions, or votes, which are extentions of opinions. I don't usually vote strategically, that is, when it looks more or less scummy, I vote when my opinion changes. Waiting to vote sounds a lot more scummy, which is what you're doing...

I hardly use my vote strategically, but nor do I vote EVERY TIME I think somebody needs to be pressured.

I vote who I think is scum, and I'll pressure outside of that as I feel appropriate.

Oh, and chaco/monkey both attacking me at the same time is noted

But if you wait to vote...you're not voting who you think is scum. How can we trust you if we think you're withholding your opinion or votes?

[MonkeyMan576]

Oh, and chaco/monkey both attacking me at the same time is noted

Are you objecting to being attacked? Is there a reason we should not attack you if we both think you're scum?

[MonkeyMan576]

But if you wait to vote...you're not voting who you think is scum. How can we trust you if we think you're withholding your opinion or votes?

You imply that I waited to vote when, in fact, I only read the stuff just when I was voting. I caught slicey's extension and the like afterward. I have this other thing I do called playing games on newgrounds. It's quite fun.

how can we trust you if we think you are scum?

Honestly, I don't see how I'm withholding my opinion when I'm not only voting chaco but also saying I'm suspicious of you and am thus engaging in actively posting with defense/attack at both ends.

Honestly, I find this to be quite fun.

You admitted that you "intended to vote" earlier, but didn't. Therefore, you were withholding your vote.

[MonkeyMan576]

It has to do with flavor. During the beginning of the second season, Anti-Spiral brainwashed Nia into helping him. Then, near the end of the show, Anti-Spiral succeeded in 'brainwashing' almost everyone for at least a brief time. Also, all of the characters in the show are spirals (except Anti-Spiral obviously.) So, it would make sense for Anti-Sprial to brainwash, or recruit, Spiral's to the Anti-Spiral side.

As for unclaimed abilities, I mean that he can recruit people into his Anti Spiral Cult.

Semi, yes. But I can argue against that easily. Total Despair. Anti-Spirals use methods to instill despair, fear, and hopelessness. Now, with that. Listen to

exactly

what my role does. It adds 1+ the number of people alive to my votes...hmm, that KIND of sounds what you're hinting at. Except, the way you're taking it is so off target. I use the total number of players+1(me), to vote and lynch.

Geez, if I'm going to be the lynch, I might as well just use my ability, huh?

I have no idea what you're trying to get at here.

MM, was your initial vote on me because my case wasn't good? That seems like a poor reason to vote someone IMHO. At least I'm trying to scumhunt.

I think pushing a poor case is scummy. Once you elaborated on your case I didn't think you were scummy and thus removed/changed my vote.

[MonkeyMan576]

I don't think RF is necessarily scummier than Chaco, but he is more lynchable, and he's still certainly scummy.

Unvote:
Vote: RayFrost

[MonkeyMan576]

Jahudo knows Chaco killed a townie but he's okay with it? I don't get it...

Vote: Jahudo
FOS: Chaco

[MonkeyMan576]

Sorry, I'm not scum.

Jahudo and Chaco seem like the best best right now, Jahudo for scum and Chaco if he is indeed cult.

[MonkeyMan576]

why do I support what idea? I don't remember supporting anything.

[MonkeyMan576]

I'm not sure what you mean. Based on his role, others have indicated that it is probable you are cult.

I don't know for sure, so it's pretty scummy for you to ask me to commit on something I'm not sure about.

[MonkeyMan576]

How is that scummy? You are teetering back and forth like a broken seesaw. You've committed to very little this entire game, and constantly leave yourself room to escape.

I only commit to something if I have solid info. It's pretty silly to say your position on something is stronger than it actually is. And it's scummy to want someone else to commit to a position they don't want to commit to.

[MonkeyMan576]

Why are you waiting to claim, SB? Afraid of a counter claim?

FOS: Snow_Bunny

[MonkeyMan576]

lol, I'm the last to claim, so I must be the cultist? What kind of logic is that?

I am Nia, Town Cult Investigator.

Last night I investigated Jahudo and got a guilty result.

[MonkeyMan576]

Well, if Jahudo and Yos cannot confirm SB is lying, I'm going to assume SB is telling the truth. It would be hard to lie about 3 night actions and get away with it. Right now I'm leaning towards Cobalt as scum and Jahudo as the cult recruiter. Cobalt probably tried to kill Vi, Jahudo probably tried to recruit Vi, but obviously couldn't because he died.

If my speculation is correct, the question is do we go after mafia or cult first?

[MonkeyMan576]

unvote

...because I don't know what to think at the moment.

Monkey, what is your role PM flavor? Why did you investigate me last night? Why aren't you voting me if you got a guilty?

@Cobalt: Snow_Bunny and you could both be telling the truth if Yos was the killer.

My PM says I am cult investigator because I am curious about how humans live. I investigated you because you were my top suspect, and I'm not voting you yet because I want to see if others want to go after scum or cult first.

[MonkeyMan576]

Opps, yeah. Either S_B or Cobalt is lying. Yos does not have to be killer in any case.

one more thing:

Jahudo and Chaco seem like the best best right now, Jahudo for scum and Chaco if he is indeed cult.

Monkey, this clearly looks like you're calling Chaco cult but you just call me scum like its something different than cult. Why would you say that if you had a guilty on me as cult?

Because I didn't want to get role outed...

[MonkeyMan576]

So we are in agreement that Cobalt is likely scum and Jahudo is likely cult? The question is who do we go after?

[MonkeyMan576]

I'm concerned with how SB automatically discounts Jahudo as cult, and Jahudo discounts going after cult instead of mafia. I am thinking they might be cult together...especially since I KNOW Jahudo is cult.

Unvote:
Vote: Jahudo

[MonkeyMan576]

The fact that you're lying, since I investigated you.

If the cult investigates one more person, they could win if another townie is lynched.

[MonkeyMan576]

I'm concerned with how SB automatically discounts Jahudo as cult, and Jahudo discounts going after cult instead of mafia. I am thinking they might be cult together...especially since I KNOW Jahudo is cult.

Unvote:
Vote: Jahudo

Lynching scum > lynching cult.

I've never said Jahudo is town. I'm just saying Cobalt is scum. Easy.

Lynch scum, or be lynched with them.

I'm not convinced you're town, SB, so I don't have a reason to listen to your advice. If you are recruited cult you could have maintained your watcher powers.

[MonkeyMan576]

I wouldn't trust her more than me. The fact that she's buddying with Jahudo is more worrysome than my power not being confirmed. I haven't been counterclaimed, and I haven't been investigated or tracked/watched.

[MonkeyMan576]

Day killer, I propose we get rid of night killer and I'll recruit you tonight.

You could kill me, but next to me you have the least chance of winning anyway.

You can recruit even when you're dead? I doubt that.

[MonkeyMan576]

I think SB is telling the truth about her role, but lying about being town. She was probably recruited.

Jahudo is confirmed cult, the town would be in a very bad position if we lynched a townie(Cobalt) based on a recruited players claim. I think we have to go after the 100% confirmed baddie at this point, or else he could recruit again and get closer to winning the game.

[MonkeyMan576]

How cute, the two cultists(Jahudo and SB) are trying to get out of losing...

[MonkeyMan576]

#1 rule in mafia: Don't believe scum info(or cult).

I don't know who the day killer is, and I don't know what the point in speculating is.

[MonkeyMan576]

Yeah, but we don't know, and how do you propose we figure it out?

[MonkeyMan576]

I wouldn't believe him if he told us. He is cult and needs to die.

[MonkeyMan576]

I have no reasons whatsoever to believe Cobalt is not scum. Period.

And, if Jahudo says he doesn't have a follower, then we should go and lynch Cobalt.

Your logic doesn't make sense. The mafia isn't going to get bigger. The cult will.

[MonkeyMan576]

If he does flip town, my apologies to Jahudo, but he had claimed cult. Can't be TOO regretful about it.

[MonkeyMan576]

lol, so NOW Cobalt claims SK...

[MonkeyMan576]

Sorry, I'm town.

[MonkeyMan576]

Sorry, I'm town.

[MonkeyMan576]

double post...

[MonkeyMan576]

You haven't flipped yet. If you do flip town, I can't speculate on what other roles might affect my investigation.

[MonkeyMan576]

Well, we had a perfect victory, so even if it was a bit haphhazard, it worked out well.

[MonkeyMan576]

I killed socio by the way. He had fingered all 3 scum and the town conveniently forgot everything he said afterwards:).

[MonkeyMan576]

Well you would have bussed me if you thought I didn't have the kill still:P, me being cult recruitable and all..

[MonkeyMan576]

not at the time, or else you wouldn't have been talking about me being obvbus.

[MonkeyMan576]

My kill of socio was pretty good, and my fakeclaim worked out well, so I'm happy with my play overall.