California Trilogy: City of Angels - Off Stage (Game Over)

[VP Baltar]

we're just waiting on zu right? That is of course assuming that they can even do it from on stage if that is where the AP is at.

well zu has posted...sort of thought that was the reason we hadnt had a stuntman yet..at any rate.

unvote, vote MafiaJin

VP and CKD, why were you publicly speculating that Zu_Faul is the Assistant Producer?

How, in any way, shape, or form, is this helpful to the town?

Ah, that's not what happened. I was pointing out that it wasn't going to happen and ckd clarified that even further by pointing out that he had already posted. Funny you want to point that out directly after you say it's not useful to discuss the AP at this point.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

this was the actual quote:

"Thok and Thesp (if you haven't done this already), once Scene Four starts, I want detailed explanations of how you feel about EVERYBODY else in the game. I'm talking, 3-5 sentences on each player, if not more. You two are longtime veterans that I'm used to being able to get information from, and I feel as though I have almost nothing from either of you. I don't care if you're put On Camera during Scene Four. Break character, and break down the game for me."

I don't think if he follows what you ask that he is stepping up to the plate of his own accord, more like he's doing what you're demanding of him. I think if you didn't feel the need to "babysit" him you wouldn't have asked this of him in the first place. Both players fall WAY short of 3-5 sentences of each player you've demanded.

Let's face it, if you actually cared about their opinions enough that you demanded 3-5 sentences because you thought you could use that to "break apart the game" as you've been posturing that you could, you would've been on them like white on rice to talk.

It's all just an act to pretend like Hero-Glork has some grand plan/analysis to save town and crush scum, pushing buttons and directing traffic when you really are just pulling up random crap and hoping no1 realizes how bad the whole act stinks.

But let's examine your excuse that you were "distracted" from your heroic gamebreaking plan because you needed to "make a good decision" which was essentially a 0 information coinflip. yea, real likely that is*eyeroll*.

Let's look at what's at stake in our coinflip, we either go good or bad(which is a swing of 2 in our endgame scenario, which is going to be 2 baddies 5 goodies no matter how it ends up) versus breaking apart the game which is um, pretty much hero-glork guiding the town to easy win right?

[Talilan]

Orbots are you scum, or are you extremely confused, or are you both? (more likely)

Talilan -

That's really bad reasoning, Ms. Fisher. You're saying he's a Decepticon for advocating the correct choice - when he gave ample, logical reasoning for doing so? We also gave that reasoning when we were on break, are we scum too?

This seems like a really bad excuse to lead us astray. My good guy read of you has been shot to hell. Ugh.

You never did respond to this.

oooooooooooooooookay well looking at the in camera thread

That's really bad reasoning, Ms. Fisher. You're saying he's a Decepticon for advocating the correct choice - when he gave ample, logical reasoning for doing so? We also gave that reasoning when we were on break, are we scum too?

This seems like a really bad excuse to lead us astray. My good guy read of you has been shot to hell. Ugh.

vote: Push the button

Okay firstly I didn't say our friend the Hard-Thokker was scum for advocating the correct choice. In fact I worked backwards from the assumption he was scum.

Secondly I would hardly characterise "I don't like Tabris n Odbody therefore I'll vote against them" as ample, logical reasoning. I also think distrusting Pooky's a bit spurious as Talitha tells me he always plays like this and I believe Thok choi should know this.

Do you stand by your above post?

So in fact I gave you a response (which furthermore called out your posting as completely illogical and asked for an explanation) in the very subsequent post.

You then backtracked

I was referring to Angel, Ms. Fisher. Sorry for the confusion. Please see his post 22 in isolation for more details.

Which made sense at the time when I wasn't paying very much attention- Elvis_knits' name is Carrie so you said Carrie meaning her but I thought it was addressed to me.........except looking at it now you didn't say Carrie at all, you said "Ms. Fisher".

Now you are claiming I never answered your post? What the hell?????????? Are you reading the game? Much as this is sloppy it's also scummy, looks like you've been making some horrible excuses to try and continue to appear consistent.

Anyways this is my list of scum who need to die oh so badly:

Gaspar
Thok
Thesp (yer, changed my read, the insistence that elmosaurian was town when he was acting xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxtremely scummy still catches on my scumdar. Plus Talitha said "if you're wondering about Thesp, then he's probably scum". Thesp is apparently a great player but has been pretty useless all game apart from constantly attacking me for posting too much, which is easy to do as scum or town. In fact it'd be something I'd love to do as scum.
Mighty Orbots (pending explanation for continually illogical and inexplicable sequence of posting)

The attacks against myself are all scummy so save yourself the trouble of forcing me to lynch you because we all know we've been very explicitly pro-town the whole game (boasting a 3-3 correct voting record in the on-stage which few can match). Whoever attacks us just gives themselves away as scum so I suggest you don't. Likewise the attacks against DGB are probably very obv-scummy but I need to re-read more closely.

I'm a bit busy for a while so I'll leave you in Talitha's capable hands. I hope she shows no mercy to the punk-Thokker

Btw there actually will be legitimate scumikazes coming soon, trying to swap their lives for town players. They still have up to ~5 players waiting in the wings, so even if we lynch scum consistently from now it's very very unlikely we'll make it to end-game in the best position. We do positively need to lynch Gaspar to ensure we get another scum-lynch on the board. And AP PLEASE CEASE FORGETTING TO APPOINT THE STUNTMAN TA

[Talilan]

btw Orbots' attacks against us reek of convenience. All game they've been giving us a mildly pro-town read or something similar but now change to "my town read of you is shot to pieces" while forgetting to actually make this appear logical or coherent in any way.

[Gaspar]

Funny. Another player states they suspect Talilan, and now suddenly they are "obviously scum," according to Talilan.

[curiouskarmadog]

we're just waiting on zu right? That is of course assuming that they can even do it from on stage if that is where the AP is at.

well zu has posted...sort of thought that was the reason we hadnt had a stuntman yet..at any rate.

unvote, vote MafiaJin

VP and CKD, why were you publicly speculating that Zu_Faul is the Assistant Producer?

How, in any way, shape, or form, is this helpful to the town?

Ah, that's not what happened. I was pointing out that it wasn't going to happen and ckd clarified that even further by pointing out that he had already posted. Funny you want to point that out directly after you say it's not useful to discuss the AP at this point.

LOL, qft.

further more, if I was scum (WIFOM) why would I talk about it in game? Wouldnt I just keep it to myself. If you read the fucking thread, you will see that I was the one holding off the damn lynch until I was sure everyone saw the stuntman pic...if I was the AP, I would have waited until another player posted before assigning, but I wanted to give him or her that chance. so you can back off.

god you are scummy.

[Talilan]

Funny. Another player states they suspect Talilan, and now suddenly they are "obviously scum," according to Talilan.

did you actually read the sequence of posts during which they claimed to suspect us, then withdrew the suspicion (inconsistent with their original post), then claimed we "hadn't answered their question" (despite the fact I had and furthermore asked for an explanation which they'd backed out of providing), or are you just outed scum trying to create as much noise as possible before the n00se?

[Talilan]

and as I said, bring it on newb-scum, whenever you claim to suspect us it just makes you more obv-scum. You don't like that, do you scummies

[Mighty Orbots]

Orbots are you scum, or are you extremely confused, or are you both? (more likely)

That's funny, I was thinking the same about you.

Here, let me remove the pronouns from the post so that you can't possibly (intentionally?) misunderstand it again:

That's really bad reasoning, Ms. Fisher. You're saying {Gaspar is} a Decepticon for advocating the correct choice - when {Gaspar} gave ample, logical reasoning for doing so? {Mighty Orbots} also gave that reasoning when {Mighty Orbots} were on break, are {Mighty Orbots} scum too?

This seems like a really bad excuse to lead {the town} astray. {Mighty Orbots'/Papa Zito's} good guy read of {Talilan} has been shot to hell. Ugh.

I have not backtracked. I have given the benefit of the doubt that you were confused about the post, so I clarified. You didn't respond after I clarified, so no, you haven't responded to the post. Also, my town read of you wasn't shot to hell just because of this, it was initially damaged by your posting mishap.

[1]The attacks against myself are all scummy so save yourself the trouble of forcing me to lynch you because we all know we've been very explicitly pro-town the whole game ([2]boasting a 3-3 correct voting record in the on-stage which few can match). [3]Whoever attacks us just gives themselves away as scum so I suggest you don't.

Okay this part of the post is gold.

1. There's no reason a pro-town player wouldn't attack attack you for something you did. Scumhunting another player to solidify a read isn't scummy at all. I can't believe someone of your caliber(s) would say something like this. It's like you're attempting to justify an OMGUS position.
2. I find your 3/3 record frankly suspicious. Only the scum know what the correct choice is, and somehow only you have made all the correct choices.
3. Scare tactics don't help the town.

[Gaspar]

I have not seen a good justification from ckd why he would put all players he thought were town into the lynchpool.

I have not seen a good justification from ckd why he would want to decide who to lynch from the onstage players who cannot defend themselves because they aren't offstage, then stunt them in for the execution.

I have not seen a good explanation from anyone (I'm looking at you, VP Baltar) why we should keep our thoughts/reads private during the pre-scene time.

~elvis

[Talilan]

Ok then, replace

Okay firstly I didn't say our friend the Hard-Thokker was scum for advocating the correct choice. In fact I worked backwards from the assumption he was scum.

with

Okay firstly I didn't say our friend

Gaspar

was scum for advocating the correct choice. In fact I worked backwards from the assumption he was scum.

I find it quite laughable you're saying I argued "Gaspar is scum for choosing the correct choice in scene three". I clearly didn't. That's clearly not the only reason I suspect him. It's clearly not a valid basis for saying "oh noes my town read of you is shot to pieces". But, it was scummy. All the "oh my god the ...mother was so clearly the correct choice was legitimately scummy"- it was very silly to be so confident of that.

And as for my scare tactics, I'm fine with the scum getting scared. I can see you quivering in your boots already.

I just gained a whole lot of respect for Troll's scum play because he really had me thinking you had a good chance of being town during his tenure in the hydra.

[Talilan]

Oh yer just to clarify if anyone else is confused, the reason I accused him of backtracking was because I had originally thought he meant "that wasn't addressed to you, Carrie, that was addressed to elvis-Carrie", but in fact you wanted

us

to discuss him rather than the Thokster.

I was referring to Angel, Ms. Fisher. Sorry for the confusion. Please see his post 22 in isolation for more details.

For the record I still don't know what post this was supposed to refer to or how it was relevant in any way.

[Mighty Orbots]

Talilan -

Basically, I was assuming Gaspy is scum.

At the beginning of the scene, in post 579, he said "don't push the button", which was why I still mistakenly believed that was his choice even though he apparently amended it later.

Last scene he continually insisted on the correct choice of action even when everyone was voting against it.

(emphasis mine)

My problem with your post is that he didn't

baselessly

insist on the correct choice. He gave ample evidence, in thread on

why

it was the correct choice. The ample evidence was his post 22 that I directed you to. There's absolutely nothing wrong with him going against the majority of the town when he's posted a proof why the decision they are advocating (you were advocating!) is false. That you're trying to paint him as scum for doing so is horribly scummy. What am I missing here?

Also, Troll is a far better player than I am, regardless of alignment, so all that goes without saying.

One final thought. This:

(after all, if he's town, he shouldn't be getting it right all the time anyway).

we've been very explicitly pro-town the whole game ([2]boasting a 3-3 correct voting record in the on-stage which few can match)

is lol.

[VP Baltar]

I have not seen a good explanation from anyone (I'm looking at you, VP Baltar) why we should keep our thoughts/reads private during the pre-scene time.

You don't need my permission to do as you please. It has been explained multiple times in various places in the thread (which I still don't know if you have read or not). If you don't like my reasoning, I don't really care. I'm not your jesus and I'm not preventing you from putting your thoughts out there.

I don't know if it is Glork's play before you got here or what, but I find your player slot extremely frustrating because you just don't seem to contribute much beneficial to the overall conversation. Your argument about ckd is stupid. Glork's fishing for the AP after denouncing it is stupid. Glork's playing the "hero", as Pooky puts it, is indeed scummy. The endless bickering with Talilan is not only useless, but has essentially killed the enthusiasm of the town any time you two are in the same thread. Frankly I think both of you need to be deadened with the utmost haste because at least one of you is probably scum and the other is a pock mark on the face of this town's ability to find scum.

[Talilan]

MO I still don't know what "22" means, sorry.

other is a pock mark on the face of this town's ability to find scum.

says the dude who just lynched MafiaSSK. Yes, one us and Gaspar is scum- we've known this all game, and have been continually frustrated at town's failure to lynch him (it's not my fault you've managed to go 4 scenes without lynching the obv-scum). Perhaps if you (the town) would care to lynch the obv-scum we'd get on with the game and stop detracting from "finding the scum" which is apparently your term for "continually pointing out the extremely obv-scum and expressing frustration when they're not lynched".

[Talilan]

argh, that was a quote from VP Baltar, not I

anyhow I should disengage again, I sense the pattern starting again when the scum are being blatant, the town is apathetic/pathetic and just ignores this, I feel obliged to defend against craplogic attack after craplogic attack from scum/noobs and then get accused of posting too much

DISENGAGE

[VP Baltar]

Here's a hint Tal, your walls, spamming and attacking anyone who presents a case against you as "obv. scum" isn't helpful at all. Your snarky remarks are not helpful. You should accept that you have played horribly thus far and be working to correct your play if you'd actually like to be a help to the town. If not, then please go quietly into that goodnight and stop wasting our time. I pretty much feel that if either you or Gaspar are town and make it to endgame, then the town is screwed.

[Talilan]

trying to determine whether someone has played horribly is a really dumb thing to do in the middle of the game. I'm sure when most of my suspects flip scum you will still come up with some terrible argument for why I still "played horribly", meh. You just can't win with certain towns, they're just composed of too many stubborn/incompetent/ severely hypocritical players.

[Talilan]

and policy-lynching MafiaSSK and saying "oh hehe stop acting anti-town and we'll stop lynching you" isn't being clever, it's just being incompetent

[VP Baltar]

You just can't win with certain towns, they're just composed of too many stubborn/incompetent/ severely hypocritical players.

So, your assessment of many players finding your playstyle anti-town and unhelpful is that everyone else must be "stubborn/incompetent/severely hypocritical"?

and policy-lynching MafiaSSK and saying "oh hehe stop acting anti-town and we'll stop lynching you" isn't being clever, it's just being incompetent

^This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. You strawman an entire day of debate into very biased paraphrased assesment and say people are scum for it. I can't even begin to explain how awful of a mode of play that is or how inaccurate your assessment of the lynch was.

We had very limited choices on who we could lynch because ckd made an error in judgement and the AP failed to do his or her job. MJ did act scummy during the game and was not being helpful, nor was he consistent to his own play or answering legitimate concerns put to him. There was nothing policy lynch about it. The only other person I would have considered lynching was hewitt, who had basically done exactly the same thing during the game as MJ. Nobody was going "hehe stop acting anti-town", so stop painting it like we didn't take the lynch seriously and try to determine who was the most scummy out of our available choices. If you want to criticize our lynch decision, then do so on legitimate grounds of who you felt would have been a better lynch for valid reasons. Otherwise, you should indeed disengage.

[Gaspar]

VP Baltar, I am not asking your permission to talk about who I think is scum. I am telling you and everyone else that I think it is helpful to town to reach a consensus when we are all together, and I think it is scummy for you to discourage it.

I went and ISOed you since you refuse to state your thoughts again and want to make me do more work.

I think ckd is right about keeping quiet ahead of the scenes. I'm not quite finished with my reread, but I think we got duped yesterday in terms of who got chosen as advocates. I think we should save our suspicions until after the scene starts so the scum can't use it against us in their decisions.

Just noting how far your head is stuck up ckd's behind. I noticed last scene how he said maybe he should just be lynched because people are suspicious and you were all "no, ckd, we loooove you don't die!"

So, am I right that with the elmo lynch that elmoyos got appointed advocate, and it looked like an attempt to avoid their lynch? Is that what you mean my scum played the town?

I think you made a bad assumption about the elmoyos lynch. I don't think you can blame it on him being appointed advocate.

I think that elmoyos was already probably going to die because people thought they were scum, not because they got put in as advocate. I'm sure the advocate thing didn't help, but I don't think it was the bulk of the reason why they got lynched. I don't think that the town "got played" because they gave their scumlists or were scum hunting like normal. I think the town was just wrong. Happens in every game of mafia. I see no reason to start hiding our suspicions.

Again, indicating to the scum who is likely to be lynched in the next scene is a BAD IDEA. Openly strategizing before the scene starts is a BAD IDEA. I know we all have a lot to say, but I think waiting until the scene starts for a majority of these things is going to be infinitely more beneficial to us than spilling our plans and then giving the scum a chance to plan around those plans like they did yesterday. Everyone who is spurring on these types of discussions right now has jumped in my scumdar.

I still don't understand this. What advantage can scum gain?

Town gains a lot by coming to an understanding who is scummy and who is not:
1)They know who to trust onstage
2)They have a better idea who to lynch offstage due to getting all opinions
3)People seen varying from overall consensus are probably scum and easier to spot as scum.
4)Director and other roles can do their job better or be held accountable if they vary from town consensus.

Scum are already coordinating (whether they can speak all the time or not). We know this... it is what scum do. Why rob town of their only opportunity to coordinate and strategize?

the scum conveniently NK the town people from our list and bump up scummy people like they did yesterday

Which is the same thing that happens in any game of mafia. I don't think we should stray from the normal way we play. Hiding suspicions is not helpful. If scum NK pro-town players who are saying smart things, we go look at their posts and try to follow their leads. They can't kill everyone at once. The benefit of talking through suspicions and getting a dialogue going, and finding players you trust as fellow towners, is much greater than any loss we might sustain by losing a towner to NK.

Besides, you are assuming scum can't tell which way people are leaning. If they get a whiff of someone who is on to them, they will get the NK regardless if they just mentioned one tiny thing or if they made a whole case and tried to convince other townies. And I would rather hear their case before they die.

~elvis

[Thok]

Glork, unfortunately, I'm not convinced I know what you're asking about. (I have some guesses, but it's not enough to be certain.)

I agree with Elvis's argument that we should be using this down time more productively, and I'd go further and argue that I think we (as the town, as a collective), should start trying to decide CKD's list for him. We already effectively have three of the other roles (stuntman/music/photo) listen to the collective will of the town anyways when making decisions; the only exception was when KY Krew stunted out and was promptly lynch the next day as scum. IMHO, any benefit we'd get from seeing and analyzing CKD's thought process in his choices we've already seen. (It's unfortunately too late for Talilan to fire CKD to benefit the next scene.)

(I should probably go and make a hypothetical list; that would require me to do some clustering of people into groups and split the groups roughly evenly. I'd also try to take into account certain preferences; for example SL I'd probably leave off-stage no matter what since it feels like he has a preference for the off-stage game and seems to me to be more useful there.)

(Also, V/LA roughly noon Friday to noon Saturday)

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

because if every1 in the town suspects that person or a person is the consensus suspect/lynchguy, then the scumbags will make that person the advocate, thus clouding our advocate information's validity.

this is not a normal game of mafia.

[VP Baltar]

I think that elmoyos was already probably going to die because people thought they were scum, not because they got put in as advocate. I'm sure the advocate thing didn't help, but I don't think it was the bulk of the reason why they got lynched. I don't think that the town "got played" because they gave their scumlists or were scum hunting like normal.

You're not understanding me. I'm not saying that Yos was lynched because he was made advocate. I'm saying that the town decided in pre-scene that Yos was definitely going to be the lynch for the day, and the scum took advantage of that by appointing him advocate. This hurt the town because the info given to Yos essentially became null because no one felt they could trust him. Is that more clear why I think being too direct about it is a bad idea?

Strategizing before the advocates and choices are appointed gives the chance to the scum to work their plan around those plans. I am willing to give a general list of people who I think are scummy before the scene, but it is going to be broad and not say specifically "I want this person lynched in the next scene". We don't have the opportunity to strategize around the scum's plans, so why should we give them the opportunity?

Just noting how far your head is stuck up ckd's behind. I noticed last scene how he said maybe he should just be lynched because people are suspicious and you were all "no, ckd, we loooove you don't die!"

I don't care if you don't like it. I feel he is town. I don't want to lynch players who I think are more likely to be town than others. If you want to call that buddying, then be my guest. I make no apologies for not lynching someone I think is prob town.

Which is the same thing that happens in any game of mafia. I don't think we should stray from the normal way we play. Hiding suspicions is not helpful.

I can agree with you on this somewhat, and I think that wasn't a great point I was making, but this also isn't like a normal mafia game. I'm mostly concerned about the scum appointing advocates that are going to be the most harmful to us on-stage. I'm willing to revise my position if I sounded too hardline before. People can and should discuss who is scummy and for what, but I think it needs to be in a
somewhat broad way and not turn into what happened before the Yos lynch where everyone came to the preconceived conclusion that Yos was the lynch for the day.

[sottyrulez]

because if every1 in the town suspects that person or a person is the consensus suspect/lynchguy, then the scumbags will make that person the advocate, thus clouding our advocate information's validity.

this is not a normal game of mafia.

Hi fearmongering.

Frankly what was ignored in scene 3, and what is being ignored now is that if the advocates lie to us, we are bestowed with the ability to make them answer for it in the next scene... of course if we lynch them first and then make a choice based on distrust that we have not yet proved, then we make both a bad choice and lynch a townie.

... yay fear.

- Zachrulez