Mini 865 -- Evil Eyes (Over)

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Confirmation!

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Hmmm, I've played with tubby, Suave, IAUN and Hoopla before.

Um, hi.

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Fine, my favorite animal is the bear. The cave bear.

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I'd like to change my answer. My favorite animal is Your Mom.

What, you say she isn't an animal?

She sure was in bed last night.

Hey-o!

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Go go Gadget OMGUS!

Vote: iamausername

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third person on the wagon Hoopla? and why are you promoting iamausername's wagon? both are noted.

Why aren't you helping?

are you asking why I'm not helping you, or why I'm not helping the town. I don't think that pushing an RVS wagon past 3 votes is helping. how does you saying "Lets keep this wagon going, guys," helping the town?

A question or two: What does being the 3rd person on a wagon tell you about Hoopla? How does "Let's keep this wagon going" hurt the town?

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well I recall in my first game someone had said the third person on a wagon is scummy or something. or was it the fourth.... hm....

Was that person right, in that game?

well I don't really have an answer for the second question. other than it's pushing a wagon on someone very fast. I just had a bad experience recently when my first day only lasted 4 posts... sorry for being a little careful.

With 12 players, it's 7 to lynch. So a 4 post day is impossible.

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well I recall in my first game someone had said the third person on a wagon is scummy or something. or was it the fourth.... hm....

Was that person right, in that game?

well I don't really have an answer for the second question. other than it's pushing a wagon on someone very fast. I just had a bad experience recently when my first day only lasted 4 posts... sorry for being a little careful.

With 12 players, it's 7 to lynch. So a 4 post day is impossible.

the game was a theme game, and someone used their power right off the bat, and it ended the day, because someone dies and that's how his power worked.

Hey look at that, you skipped my first question! Answer it please.

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That is now 2 posts where MrSuave has specifically ignored my question.

Unvote. Vote: MrSuave.

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it's not that I'm ignoring it, it's that it's a part of a game I'm still currently in. so I don't know atm. once it's done, I'll tell you. JW even said we shouldn't talk about the game that I'm in that is still in progress.

That's fine, but you should have said that. As you don't know alignments in that game yet, why did you put any stock in the "3rd person is scum" theory?

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That's fine, but you should have said that. As you don't know alignments in that game yet, why did you put any stock in the "3rd person is scum" theory?

EBWOP: For clarity - "3rd person on the wagon is scum/scummy" theory.

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Why are you so keen to claim?

Vote: Hoopla

Rolefishing.

How are you reading that as rolefishing?

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Why are you so keen to claim?

Vote: Hoopla

Rolefishing.

How are you reading that as rolefishing?

/smashes head through wall to butt into convo

I'm not reading that as rolefishing at all, as from reading Mr Suave's post it seems that he's asking us if he should claim or not. Though in this time he's probably either thought up a fake claim or is just preparing to post his claim.

While I agree with Toro in principle here, something feels off about this post. It's quite a bit of coaching for 2 sentences. I'm just not sure if Toro is trying to coach Reck, Suave, or both.

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I still want to know how Reck read Hoopla as rolefishing.

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To me, asking why he's so keen to claim is an attempt to lure information out about whether or not he has a power role.

This is a just restatement of "rolefishing". How so?

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Seriously, what the hell else do you expect me to elaborate on? The definition of rolefishing is trying to find out a person's role... how Hoopla was rolefishing was by prodding around asking why he's so keen to claim, IMO, in what sounded like an attempt to draw out his claim. Why is that hard to understand?

Because I have a really hard time reading what Hoopla said that way. You're saying that you think that there's a chance that Hoopla was hoping Suave would answer that by claiming? We're going to have to agree to disagree on that one.

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If we're just going to agree to disagree, why even pursue it in the first place?

FoS: Mac

.

Because while I disagree with your assessment of Hoopla's statement, I see now how you could have interpreted it that way. I'm not too proud to admit that I missed something on my initial read. So, I think that your Hoopla call-out merits an "I Got My Eye On You" for now, and that's about it.

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I still want to know how Reck read Hoopla as rolefishing.

I don't see what's so hard to follow. What, exactly, would you expect to discern from someone's response to "Why so eager to claim?" besides an idea of what their role is? Are scum supposed to be more or less eager to claim than townies?

Hoopla's answer

I don't think so, but claiming so early is not a situation we need. It was more a question to probe MrSuave's understanding of the claiming process.

is pretty much how I read it. I do think that a nervous and under-the-gun scum might be more willing to do something "big" (claim) to potentially change the story. I certainly don't think that would go for all players, but it might with a newer and more immature player. As such, I found it to be a pretty reasonable question.

I already explained how I missed Reck's reading of it, and still disagree with him about it.

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3. Then, at the end of your post when you've finally done some sort of explanation for your previous reasoning, you slap your vote on iamausername with no explanation. WTF?

Right. Why is that deserving of "WTF"?

It may not be deserving of a WTF, but it is definitely deserving of questioning.

where you just post the numbers, then at least make the numbers hyperlinks. It is going to be painful to go back through the thread and find each of these posts the way that you've labeled them.

Actually, if you can master the arcane art of reading players in isolation, listing iso. posts is infinitely easier on the reader than setting up three or four different hyperlinks for each player.

You know what's even better? Quoting the offending posts and pointing out what you find suspicious. It certainly makes things a lot easier for me to read.

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Hoopla's answer

I don't think so, but claiming so early is not a situation we need. It was more a question to probe MrSuave's understanding of the claiming process.

is pretty much how I read it. I do think that a nervous and under-the-gun scum might be more willing to do something "big" (claim) to potentially change the story. I certainly don't think that would go for all players, but it might with a newer and more immature player. As such, I found it to be a pretty reasonable question.

Why would this only apply to a nervous and under-the-gun

scum

player?

Because scum have something to hide, while vanilla townies don't. This is very simplistic analysis (because as I said before, I don't think that I need to be sophisticated with regards to Suave), but yes, I think Suave-scum would have more reason to be nervous and react that way.

The above applies to vanilla, as I said. With regards to town power roles, again simplistic analysis would suggest that Suave-PR would've gone the other way and avoided mentioning the word "claim" at all costs.

No I don't have examples, so please don't ask. This is a gut read of a newer player.

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Preview edit: Macavity, for free pizza you should reply to the point IAUN made after the third quote in his post.

Missed that. Will respond when I return from class.

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I'm intrigued that players are homing in on my unreasoned vote switch when they didn't home in on, for example, IAUN's.

True dat. Nuwen's explained why she didn't, and geek apparently assumed I was still random voting, but Macavity needs to explain himself.

I was far less interested in the vote itself than I was in why you didn't think it was worth questioning. Your response of

It may not be deserving of a WTF, but it is definitely deserving of questioning.

I clearly asked the former and not the latter.

satisfied me.

Re: Hoopla. Mild town read currently. I really like early wagoning, which is what she did with both IAUN and Suave. Her iso 16 worries me though:

Hoopla, thoughts on MrSuave?

He's silly.

...

I don't have a read on him either way.

and yet the vote on him remains.

Re: other suspects. I've got my eye on both ekiM and JVW, both of whom I've seen as lurker scum recently, and neither of their contributions thus far makes me think their breaking that mold. I'll be interested to question Toro's replacement as well. I kind of lost the thread in the Geek-Nuwen-Symbol arguments, and it deserves a deeper read, which hopefully I will have time for tonight or tomorrow.

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EBWOP:

I've got my eye on both ekiM and JVW, both of whom I've seen as lurker scum recently, and neither of their contributions thus far makes me think

they're

breaking that mold.

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EBWOP:

I've got my eye on both ekiM and JVW, both of whom I've seen as lurker scum recently, and neither of their contributions thus far makes me think

they're

breaking that mold.

Yes, that was critical.

Clearly wasn't, but I hate bad grammar.

What about Tubby? I'd say he goes in the same box as Mike and Julien.

What's true for ekiM and JVW is not necessarily for tubby. I've only ever played with tubby once as far as I remember, he was scum in that game, and thus far, his play in these two doesn't seem similar. (He was actually more attentive in that one.) He doesn't officially bother me yet.

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Mass FOSes are for pussies and scum.

Nuwen, have you stated this belief/opinion/tell in a previous game? If so, link please?

IAUN brings up very good points on geek, especially the Reck-town freakout stuff, and the geek-wagon is a good one.

Also, note that here you explain your pinging xRECKONERx for strongest town vibe because of gut feeling. In your most recent post, however, you admit that you did so "entirely" to see how others would react (while appending a vague explanation about what you mean by "strongest"), thus contradicting yourself.

Where is contradiction?

Still I like my Suave vote for now. Note what Suave hasn't been doing: scumhunting.

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I find mafia to be more about philosophy than posting walls of text. Symbol, is your wordy style an attempt to distract the town and encourage them not to read?

And what is your iso 7 but a recap of an argument with approximately 3 questions buried within? Seriously, you're suggesting that anything that Symbol wrote clogs the thread more and scummier than you did in that post?

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3 votes for geek came after his replacement request: ekiM, Reck, and tubby, bringing him to L-2 while the spot doesn't have a player behind it. What are you 3 hoping to accomplish?

----

You have to admit that that was just one post, compared to Symbol's more prodigious output.

I can admit that, but I challenge you to find a single post of Symbol's that was as long and useless as yours.

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Zaz, that is not only incredibly difficult to read (separating all points across different posts, not even quoting the offending parts of the posts, sometimes failing to even address the question to anyone specific), it's also clearly anti-town. Give me one good way in which that entrance to the game is pro-town. (Continuing a meta is not a good excuse.)

As to your one question addressed to me:

Post 109 – How do you see this as coaching,

ML

?

I'm not reading that as rolefishing at all, as from reading Mr Suave's post it seems that he's asking us if he should claim or not.

Though in this time he's probably either thought up a fake claim or is just preparing to post his claim.

Bold is "Hey Reck, calm down with the rolefishing argument, because it doesn't read that way." Italics is "Hey Suave, come up with a fakeclaim immediately." Of course, I don't know if they're intended that way, but it's not hard to read them with that intention.

Now I need to dig into the rest of your post-vomit to see if there's anything worth questioning.

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Bold is "Hey Reck, calm down with the rolefishing argument, because it doesn't read that way."

Or it's "My opinion is that it isn't fishing, period."

Italics is "Hey Suave, come up with a fakeclaim immediately." Of course, I don't know if they're intended that way, but it's not hard to read them with that intention.

Why would he need to tell Suave? Suave's brain isn't going to implode if people tell him to claim.

Obviously, I'm not sure that was Toro's intention. I already said this. But it's not too much of a leap to think that he might have been coaching, and I wanted to point it out.

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MacavityLock, list of suspects or die. Don't care about the reasons, just a town-scum scale.

I don't do town-scum scales. I think they're bad for business. Top 4:
1) Suave
2T) Geek
2T) Zaz
4) JVW

Please give me a good reason for calling me out like this.

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Please give me a good reason for calling me out like this.

Hmm. Interesting that you'd take issue with me randomly fishing for your opinions.

"List of suspects or die." I think I have reason to take issue.

I think you've been focusing on Suave, and other than that you haven't been scum-hunting so much as picking and choosing minor points to argue about, like Toro's coaching post. Not enough conviction for my liking, so I was wondering what was going on behind the scenes.

I only brought up the coaching stuff again because Zaz asked about it, and no one had asked me previously so I felt it was reasonable to answer. Nuwen's point on Zaz dredging up old crap is a really good one.

I'm surprised Mike isn't on that list, seeing as you said had your eye on him before.

I gave a top 4 very specifically. ekiM is certainly not clear in my mind, but he doesn't make my top 4.

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Things I'm waiting for

Geek to get replaced.
Symbol to explain why he thinks that the threat of "List of suspects or die" is equivalent to random fishing.
Reck and tubby to explain why they wagoned Geek after it was stated that he was getting replaced.
Zaz to give a pro-town reason for anything he's done so far.

symbol and suave are far more summy than me, suave cause i don't think his posts are town motivated, and symbol is trying to hard to be town.

Re: Symbol, how is "trying hard to be town" a scumtell?

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symbol and suave are far more summy than me, suave cause i don't think his posts are town motivated, and

symbol is trying to hard to be town

.

Re: Symbol, how is "trying hard to be town" a scumtell?

no your twisting

How is that twisting? You said that Symbol is far more scummy than you, and the reason you cited is that he is trying hard to be town. So how does that make him scummy?

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no mac no matter how many times you misquote me you ard getting it wrong

SYMBOL IS SCUM BECAUSE HE IS TRYING

TOO HARD TO BE TOWN

OK, I need clarification then, because your wording sucks. Do you mean:
a) He's trying too hard at this game, therefore he cannot be town.
b) He's trying too hard to look townie, therefore he cannot be town.

If (a), how is putting forth effort in a game scummy? Also, what is he "trying too hard" to do?

If (b), how is trying to come off as townie as possible scummy?

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AAAH! Answer my questions! (a) or (b)? What the hell does "trying too hard at being town" mean?

(And you don't have patience for me?)

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Watching how bandwagons form is useful. Randomly choosing the day's lynch loses that information.

We randomly select the lynch. Make them claim. If we don't believe them, we can then continue on with the lynching.

This is pretty role-fishy.

I'm waiting with baited breath for Erik to weigh in.

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And then, his post 10, where he says "fine, reck, I'll follow" and votes for Geek [me]. Blatant, opportunistic scum hopping on a wagon.

Do you think that a scum would be that obvious/conspicuous about wagon-hopping?

Anything new from 2nd half read?

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Suave's wagon is one of classic opportunism. There's gotta be scum on it.

Is this true of the geek-wagon as well, or only the Suave-wagon? Is this negated if Suave is actually scum?

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It's amazing how little our "must lynch" lists overlap, Symbol.

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It's amazing how little our "must lynch" lists overlap, Symbol.

I apologize if you've revealed this before, but who's on your must lynch list?

Things have not changed substantially from my earlier answer to Symbol, but my current "Want to Lynch" 3 are: Suave, Erik, and JVW. I have 3 more on a "Willing to Lynch" list that I won't be discussing at the time.

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Can someone please explain the case against Suave?

JVW's been on the Suave-wagon for approx as long as me, and as I think there are more people questioning him than me, I'm of the opinion that it would be useful to hear his Suave case first. I am certainly willing to make the case, and if people like I can make that case no matter whether JVW does or not. But I do think it would be more useful to hold mine until JVW's. Does this seem reasonable?

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Hi Nuwen again! I asked you a question in 426. An answer please.

Suave's wagon is one of classic opportunism. There's gotta be scum on it.

Is this true of the geek-wagon as well, or only the Suave-wagon? Is this negated if Suave is actually scum?

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I've given my Suave case already.

Awesome. Point it out please. Give us a nice one post recap including quotes.

Here's my case on Suave:

Suave starts out in iso 8 with the "3rd person on wagon" scumtell. First, he ignores my question multiple times about where that tell comes from. Finally, in iso 12 he acknowledges that he got it from an on-going game from some person of unknown alignment in that game. Note first that this is a bad play for anyone to make, but that could just as easily be VI than scum. However, it's also classic passing the buck. "Oh, hey, it can't point to my scumminess. I got this theory from someone else!" In his iso 14, he responds to the less interesting of my two points and fails to acknowledge the more interesting.

Iso 20 he talks about claiming. As I stated before, I think that for a newb-ish player like Suave, as scum he would be more antsy and try to do something big to hopefully shift focus. See my iso 19 for more complete explanation.

He's done quite literally nothing pro-town. He hasn't scum-hunted, he's added nothing to the game. Note that this is distinct from actively being anti-town.

Additionally, I think we'll learn from Suave's lynch. There been a useful bandwagon to examine, and there have been a few connections otherwise. Once again, this is not a reason to lynch, but just a point that I don't think a "lack of connections" issue exists to prevent a lynch.

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A reminder as we are approaching deadline: We still need a majority to lynch at deadline.

I will be LA from now until Nov 12 (NSF application deadline same day as this game's, how awkward), though I should be around enough to participate in the lynch. Don't expect deep analysis though. Sorry.

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Interesting. Back from my LA and will re-read in light of flips. Hopefully, I'll have some analysis tonight.

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Well, I think the people who come out of Hoopla's scum flip the worst are Erik and Nuwen (now Looker). Given Day 1 play as well,

Vote: Erik

.

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Hoopla's response when asked if she's scum is, "I am not scum." Lies are very frequently told without contractions, in an attempt to subconsciously strengthen the lie and make it more believable. It's similar in concept to the "increased emoticon use" scumtell that has been discussed. Contrast this with Suave's answer in post 176 to Hoopla's same question. "I'm not." More likely to be truthful. And I really don't like the "let's random lynch" suggestion from after I replaced in.

is approximately the crappiest case on someone I've ever seen.

The only other times you mentioned Hoopla were in reaction to JVW's possible defense of her

Back to your original read: why didn't you like my defense of Hoopla?

Because I find Hoopla scummy, and that vague defense inadequate.

and in relation to the Suave wagon

I don't like the Suave wagon from what I've seen so far. I'm really getting a newbtown vibe here, despite what others like Hoopla say about him.

As much as you say that she was scummy, you didn't vote for her.

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And of course the case was crappy. It was D1, and I'd only read a third of the game.

I was adamantly against the confirmed scum for the entirety of my presence in the game

Does not compute.

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Warming up to the Tubby-scum possibility. He was gunning for a Suave lynch all day. I think he read Suave as an obvious town power role and wanted to learn specifics.

Why call out Tubby about this but not me?

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tubby, give good reasons right now why you hammered.

Important note: Assuming 3 scum, we're in LYLO with an even number. Now that we have no doc or vig, I'm inclined to No Lynch.

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Vote: No Lynch

. Massclaim shouldn't happen until tomorrow.

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What's the point of conversation before night in this situation?

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Some poor guy dying tonight will make things easier on the rest of town. This is why we No Lynch. Having suspicions aired before night will lead to nothing more than WIFOM tomorrow.

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Some poor guy is going to die tonight regardless of whether or not we lynch.

That sort of WIFOM is not a bad thing. If you really don't want to handle it, you can block it out.

The fact is that your push for a no-lynch is anti-information. Like it or not.

And if we lynch wrong today, WE ARE LIKELY TO LOSE BEFORE WE GET ANOTHER CHANCE TO LYNCH. Do you understand what LYLO is, and the difference between having an odd and an even number of players?

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A non-majority vote count results in a "no lynch" occurring.

Actually, tubby just hammered No Lynch. Talk to you tomorrow.

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Also Macavity...

...pretty sure this rule applies to when we dont reach the Lynch number come deadline time - a no lynch occurs.

Hence every lynch needed, will need a hammer.

Yeah, that was a rule misinterpretation by me.

Anyway, no reservations about No Lynch. tubby, what would hypocop buy us at this stage?

Last post before I get on a plane. Talk to you (real life) tomorrow.

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I think we missed this:

(Also what is the meaning of having 2 kills last night? Does this mean we have an sk?)

I'm reading this as Reck was Suave's vig kill and Suave was the maf kill. Suave mentioned his suspicions of Reck yesterday and likely had no compunction about killing.

tubby, if you're seriously proposing hypocop, please explain why it's good for town and bad for maf at this point in the game.

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OK, I'm going LA until Wednesday. If nothing interesting has happened by then, I'll be voting tubby. I have a hard time seeing how this game won't include a tubby lynch, eventually.

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What up yo. I am a townie.

I would prefer for tubby to go next, but as he is being replaced, would everyone just rather we get Torq to claim and move on, or wait for replacement?

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Don't forget, JVW was a commuter.

This Day 3 didn't deserve a ton of contribution, and I'm kind of pissed that we went through with a mass-claim today. Now that we've done it though, I want to hear Erik and Torq's reactions to results of the mass-claim before doing anything horribly interesting like lynching tubby.

By the way Symbol, I'm one of approximately 2 people who did any real work on Day 2, and didn't quicklynch Nuwen/Looker, so please stop with your "ML doesn't scumhunt" argument.

Preview edit: I would like to hear from Erik and Torq, but if you're super 100% confident in your town read of username, I guess have fun.

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Yup, tubby's blacklisted. I can't for the life of me see how he played pro-town.

I will admit to one real anti-town mistake I made. I should have waited for Erik and Torq to check in and post on Day 3 before voting No Lynch, just in case they had some info to drop. Other than that, I absolutely think that No Lynch was the right way to go Day 3, and that other than letting everybody pop in and say hello, nothing should have been said, no cases, nothing. Though there really wasn't any way this game wasn't going to include a tubby lynch. Overall, very bad scumdar by me.

Bleh. Really solid play by the scum. Good job, guys.