Open 173: Pie E7 Game over

[Papa Zito]

Zito, terrible.

No. I shouldn't be able to put together a page-long case on the Doc on Day 1.

Dude, hohum, I dunno what to say here.

Except, you didn't. I might have claimed (probably not) if you had given actual reasons for voting me, but with three votes on me without reason/for pressure it would have been horrible play to claim doc then. Of course, quickhammering in an open setup takes the cake for horrible play.

I guess you didn't read? Hohum hammered before I could post. Which doesn't change the fact that I shouldn't have been able to put it together in the first place.

But hey, it's everyone else's fault, that's cool, you go with that.

[charter]

Why didn't you just post the case when you voted? Or something?

[Amished]

PZ: You can put a case against just about anybody. Seriously. How else to mislynches occur? Settle.

[Papa Zito]

Why didn't you just post the case when you voted? Or something?

I wanted reactions without one.

(is this game still going?)

Amished - I don't like my play characterized as "terrible" when it wasn't. Kthx.

[Amished]

If that's all you thought was terrible about your play, then I wanted to point out what could've been better/been worse. If you want to question why I thought the case was weak, go for it.

And no, the mod posted the endgame results a page or two back. Or they allowed the townies killed d1/n1 back into the game to give everyone a fair shot.

[Scien]

Ask

less questions?

How exactly does that help? I think you really mean talk less and I don't agree that that is a good strategy.

[VP Baltar]

Well, I think he means that your cases could have been condensed Scien. I tend to agree. There were some things (charter ignoring hohum) that you had a lot of unnecessary repetition over without making your point any stronger. Sometimes stating your point strongly once is has more impact than repeating it a lot of times. I tend to find that people are distrustful of players how over argue their cases.

[Amished]

Well, I think he means that your cases could have been condensed Scien. I tend to agree. There were some things (charter ignoring hohum) that you had a lot of unnecessary repetition over without making your point any stronger. Sometimes stating your point strongly once is has more impact than repeating it a lot of times. I tend to find that people are distrustful of players how over argue their cases.

QFT. Conciseness is pro-town

[Scien]

Unnecessary is in the eye of the beholder.

Many times I repeat myself it is because my original concern is not addressed.

You guys can cry all you want, but quite frankly, if someone who gets himself lynched day one is going to give me advice on how I should play, I am going to ignore him.

I'm tired of beating myself up over everything, and I think I am going to stop.

I truly thank you for the advice. But know that I am going to be freaking wordy the next time you see me no matter how much you urge.

[Scien]

Oh. And thanks for modding Mitey. It was fun while it lasted lol.

That last day was strange, but I'm not going to criticize. Like I could anyway, heh.

Nice playing with ya all, and sorry if I was rubbing you the wrong way, just wasn't getting the information that I wanted.

Take it easy and hope to see you again.

[VP Baltar]

You weren't "rubbing me the wrong way", Scien. I'd gladly play in another game with you. I'm just giving my own personal perspective on what I think is effective scum hunting. If you think your method is more effective, you should follow it. I mean, diversity of playstyles is what makes this game interesting and challenging.

[Scien]

You know what... I am willing to learn here.

I'm going to start with leveling with you. I was not sure that the mistake I caught from Dramonic was a total slip. I wanted to pressure him to make sure.

I stretched a bit with his slip. Most everyone called me out on that, and I eventually had to give it up.

I wanted him to sweat. I wanted him to possibly make another mistake while defending himself from my accusations.

Dramonic defended himself nicely, even to the point were it was tough for me to continue do to me second guessing myself.

---

I want to focus on what

I

did wrong. Why did my complaint not make others (besides Hohum I guess) look towards Dramonic? Why did you think it was weak? How could I make it stronger?

I've heard town cry that I just said the same thing over and over, but apparently in this case I could have done better in focusing the town towards a scum. Where did I fail?

If I asked less questions it wouldn't have helped. I am not going to lie, that suggestion makes no sense.

Put yourself in my shoes at that point in time. You have what you think is a player lying, and the town not listening.

What do you do in that case?

[Scien]

If that makes sense in my drunkeness... lol.

If not I can reword it tomorrow.

[Papa Zito]

For what it's worth, Scien, after rereading during the night I'd decided that Baltar/Dramonic were our pair, and your catch was a big reason why I settled on Dramonic. But then the cop business happened and I got lost in all that.

I like your new playstyle.

[Scien]

Oh and nice avatar Hohum.

[KittyMo]

Ummmm. That was interesting.

I'm really sorry for being useless the entire game, and thanks to PZ for replacing in.

Scien - I was pretty sure you were town, reading along, but I thought you were overly tunnelling Dramonic. I'm not exactly the best person to ask for advice on how to play town well, so I'll leave that up to other peeps.

[Amished]

The reason I disregarded it is that a simple mistake explained missing the thread (checking the wrong forum). Had I looked back and tried to apply that excuse, it wouldn't have worked, so it was a good point; drams defense did help me dismiss it though (he played well in that regard).

I think your problem is that you *look* like you're tunneling, and that (in most players experience) is town on town. That's where the too many questions comes in, in my opinion.

[VP Baltar]

The points you were making were prefectly valid, Scien. I, of course, was subtly undercutting them and working that doubt into your mind the whole time (hence our long debate on it).

I think you may have suffered from the same thing as charter too in the sense that you went for the kill way too early. One thing I have noticed in my mafia experience is that the first wagon of the day is almost never the lynch. I love to be the first wagon because people on these boards almost ALWAYS end up going after the people on the wagon instead of the person being wagoned. I don't know what it is, but I've seen it happen a million times. Usually by the end of Day 1 the first person to be wagoned ends up being the one that everyone says, " I would never lynch him today".

As far as what to do if the town is not listening to you, I like to ask people directly if they agree with my points or not. If they say no, then ask them to explain logically why they don't agree. If they give a decent answer, then all you can do is move on and hopefully come back to that wagon later with some new attacks. If they can't give you a good answer, then harrass them into voting for your top choice. I think that is more effective than battering the witness and hoping that other people join in.

[Amished]

Yeah, I've never seen the first wagon lynched, ever. Probably the "need to get more info" or whatever I'm guessing; and the taboo of ending the day early.

VP's last paragraph is definitely true. You need to convince us all personally, not try to convince the person you're attacking; cause that'll never happen.

[Scien]

That being said, you saying you figured out the cipher on Day 1 gives me pause because if that were the case I would think that you would have blocked hohum last night.

*cry*

[charter]

Yeah, I've never seen the first wagon lynched, ever. Probably the "need to get more info" or whatever I'm guessing; and the taboo of ending the day early.

Definitely happens.

[Amished]

Yeah, but I'm pretty new here, and in my 15 (tops) completed games, I don't think I've ever seen the first wagon lynched. Unless it leaves and comes back.

[VP Baltar]

Yeah, I've never seen the first wagon lynched, ever. Probably the "need to get more info" or whatever I'm guessing; and the taboo of ending the day early.

Definitely happens.

Well it happens, but generally only if someone really blows (usually a noob). You're obviously the most experience player here, but I don't see it too often in my games.

[charter]

Yeah, but I'm pretty new here, and in my 15 (tops) completed games, I don't think I've ever seen the first wagon lynched. Unless it leaves and comes back.

Just saying. Don't let someone off the hook because 'they're the first wagon' or 'it happened on page three' if what they did is scummy enough to be lynched over.

[Amished]

I stick with my votes quite a bit, actually. I think VP can attest to this, unless I see something scummy as hell, I keep my vote on somebody. Or I'll grab a group of 2-3 people and I'll switch it between them and it takes very little for me to put a vote on 'em.