Mini 865 -- Evil Eyes (Over)

[Hoopla]

Can I still play if I don't have a favourite?

[Hoopla]

Yes, only because I can't have pictures of bleeding vaginas.

[Hoopla]

Rules rule, man.

[Hoopla]

Vote: iamausername

Lets keep this wagon going, guys.

[Hoopla]

third person on the wagon Hoopla? and why are you promoting iamausername's wagon? both are noted.

Why aren't you helping?

[Hoopla]

Who cares about his age or annoying posting style, just as long as contributes and does his best to find scum will be enough. Actually no, lets just policy lynch him.

[Hoopla]

Post on one account or don't, Hoopla. I h8h8h8h8 having to knit together two accounts posting when reading in isolation.

What are you talking about?

[Hoopla]

Unvote, vote: MrSuave

for being suave or something.

[Hoopla]

Why are you so keen to claim?

[Hoopla]

To me, asking why he's so keen to claim is an attempt to lure information out about whether or not he has a power role.

It's not exactly a question that furthers a claiming opportunity, to me. I don't understand your position after your explanations, so I won't bother. I can assure you my question stemmed from curiousity of Suave wishing to claim.

[Hoopla]

Hey, xRECKONERx, you say that "increased" usage of emoticons is a scum-tell, and warn MrSuave not to do it. Two points:

First, what are you comparing with to decide that he's "increased" his usage?

Second,

if you think someone is subconsciously dropping a scum-tell, why are you warning him about it

? If you're town his alignment should be unknown to you, so why wouldn't you note it silently and keep scrutinizing him? Warning people of unknown alignment how to avoid your suspicion doesn't seem like the best possible scum-hunting method.

First, I'm comparing it to his earlier posts in the game, which seemed to have less emoticons. Maybe I'm just retarded, I don't know, but I swear I've read a legit theory that supports my idea of increasing emoticon usage = scum somewhere before.

Second, I didn't really see it as warning, though you're totally fucking right and I shouldn't have brought it up now in retrospect.

And, uh...

Unvote, Vote: Tubby

Lol

[Hoopla]

Depends whether they're actively lurking or literally not playing, I guess. We'll see.

tubby, that all you got?

Hello ekiM, are you scum?

[Hoopla]

well I'm gonna say this right now... from when I played with Hoopla as her being town and her now, her play style seems a lot more random and not very logical. go to that game that JW linked to, to see what I'm talking about.

OOOH. And your playstyle is exactly the same that game!

[Hoopla]

@Hoopla

Why are you being so defensive Hoopla? You're waaaay more agressive thi game. For seriously. I don't know what changed from when you were a nice supportive obv-town in Korlash, to being this angry defensive girl in... where ever we are now. Did something happen to you? Are you mad I won? Is your scum tell being angry and agressive? Are you scum?

No, I am not scum. Are you scum? Please answer my question in exactly two words.

[Hoopla]

Nope, Hoola, not this time.

How likely are these "are you scum" questions to get any useful response?

Not likely, I just like to chat.

[Hoopla]

I don't see what's so hard to follow. What, exactly, would you expect to discern from someone's response to "Why so eager to claim?" besides an idea of what their role is? Are scum supposed to be more or less eager to claim than townies?

(This question also goes to Hoopla, for obvious reasons.)

I don't think so, but claiming so early is not a situation we need. It was more a question to probe MrSuave's understanding of the claiming process. Recently (ongoing game) a player claimed after a two-vote wagon at the start of day 3. It was not a necessary claim.

Hi Hoopla.

Hello possum, have you enjoyed your return to mafia so far?

[Hoopla]

Hoopla, thoughts on MrSuave?

He's silly. I just finished another game with him recently where he was scum, and I foolishly played him the newb-town card which he milked for all it was worth. From Day 2 onward he did not help the town, and did not bring any unique thoughts to the game, and made no attempt to look for suspects. He lurked, was illogical, and non-committal.

He seems to be making more of an effort here, but I expect he would as town or scum, as he knows he won't ever get dealt the newbie card again. I don't have a read on him either way.

[Hoopla]

Now, can you blame me for milking it? Don't tell me that you wouldn't take advantage of something that everyone was so freely giving out... except my RL friend of course, but that's because he knew how I played xD. I also wouldn't say that I lurked, it was more like, people didn't want me to post in that game unless it was helpful, and I genuinly didn't know what helpful was at the time.
But if we're going back to that game, you're playing very VERY oddly for the play-style you showed me there. I know I'm repeating myself, but you seem to be quite fishy to me. That's why my vote is happily on you ^_^. Tell me honestly, are you mad that I won that game and just want revenge? D= Because that's not very nice, or helpful. =/

It's just a game, I'm not mad - if a situation is there to be exploited by scum, you have every right to take it. You'd have been stupid if you didn't.

[Hoopla]

APPOLOGIES FOR FALLING BEHIND!

I have loads of great thoughts (some about this game), expect some very soon!

[Hoopla]

I find mafia to be more about philosophy than posting walls of text. Symbol, is your wordy style an attempt to distract the town and encourage them not to read?

Mafia is about bitching and seeing who can repeat the same things the most.

[Hoopla]

Oh for fuck sake. You didn't always use to be like this.

[Hoopla]

so, can someone tell me why I am at the top of people's list? if it was due to lurking, I was in the middle of papers and midterms, but I'm back now.

Don't worry MrSuave, I don't want your head just yet.

I'm with Nuwen, lets wagon Zazie because it would be hilarious.

Unvote, Vote: ZazieR

[Hoopla]

My proposal: We lynch randomly today.

Recently I've been taking the position in a few of my games that as far as lynching scum Day 1 is concerned, we have little chance above random. Nearly all information available in thread is subjective, and often it seems the person who is the weakest debater, or least experienced is killed. I think a lot of people agree, Day 1 is mostly valuable for information on voting records and ties between players, than a genuine opportunity to find scum.

So, I propose we lynch randomly today. The information we get prior to the random event is still there, and still genuine, and I would suggest we actually have a better chance of lynching scum today*, without too heavily impacting our chances for future days.

I think many players have a tendancy to overvalue their personal reads, especially on Day 1. We have a strong player list this game, and I know firsthand how talented some are as scum. I don't expect to lynch scum today, and I don't expect to develop any strong pro-town reads today either. Lynching randomly gives us an opportunity to create an event potentially uncomfortable and unseen from scum. A flip from someone very unlikely to be lynched today will seem a lot more valuable to me tomorrow, than some of the choices we've suggested so far.


* Of the last 3:9 closed Mini Normals, mafia were only lynched 13 times out of 64 on Day 1.

[Hoopla]

Random lynch? Really, Hoop?

Yes, what do you think?

[Hoopla]

I don't think that's a good option. I think we need to make the most informed lynch possible, and randomly lynching is NOT the most informed.

Do you think 51 of the last 64 mini normals with 3:9 set-ups lynching town D1 is a signifigant enough statistic showcasing town's generally poor efforts? Or is this sample size too small? Is the value of information watered down for future days in the event of a random lynch? Is that even a factor?

[Hoopla]

Seeing random lynch proposed by a long-time player makes me sad. If you are resorting to random . . . why don't you at least use those dicey day 1 reads, then? And why aren't you at least commenting on other players, even if you aren't willing to lead/resist a lynch on one of them?

Please tell me why random lynch is bad. People are more than welcome to go 'HURR DURR RANDOM LYNCH IS BAD', as soon as they have explained why, and rebutted the points I've made.

I don't trust my reads Day 1. But if you want me to guess, I'd say Nuwen is probably town, ekiM is shady, and I don't understand the wagon on geek.

[Hoopla]

Because how is a random lynch going to give town a higher probability to hit scum than any other situation?

Also, as a counter-point: I'm in a game currently that just went into N1 and we lynched scum D1.

Your counter-point made me smile.

Random lynch: 25% hitting scum (assuming we are in a 3:9)
Scumhunt lynching based on previous town efforts: ~20%


Because town have little information at the start of the day, their opinions and feelings swing quite freely and easily. It's simple for talented (even not so talented) scum, to manipulate the decision in their favour when they make up ~25% of the town. It's easier to prevent your own lynch when you have known teammates. This is probably one of the reasons why towns tend to hit town more often (on average) than they do scum, on D1.

It kind of irks me how easily people can rubbish an idea just because it goes against the traditional formula. I'm happy to debate this with people, and I encourage it. The one argument I won't tolerate is the 'blah blah random isn't mafia', when in the situation it could possibly be a smart town move.

[Hoopla]

It just seems pointless when you can scum-hunt, however dubious day 1 reads are.

Nuwen is scummy.

Nuwen isn't scummy. LOL GOOD INFORMATIONS.

[Hoopla]

Hoopla, your problem is that you are assuming a town lynch on D1 is bad for the town. In the short term, sure, but in the long term, scum are caught by the way they choose to interact with the players who ultimately end up lynched (town or scum), and in particular how and when they choose to vote or not to vote those players. By random lynching, you remove that key information. We'd still retain some information if we lynched at random now, sure, but not nearly as much as we'd get from the usual D1 approach.

Scum can't manipulate the lynch without leaving some evidence that they have done so; the stronger they exert their influence on it, the more likely they are to be caught out for having done so on future days. So yes, scum manipulation means that D1 lynches are more likely to hit town than random lynching. But I think it also means that D2, D3, etc. lynches are more likely to hit scum than town.

That's the point I was most concerned about. Do you think a slightly better chance of hitting scum now is worth the information we'd lose from the end-half of where the votes go? Do you think any information can be generated from who agrees to a random lynch and who doesn't? How important is D1 information in the scheme of the whole game?

[Hoopla]

I'm conflicted on that topic... D1 info is important, but honestly, I don't remember an endgame scenario where the D1 information played a HUGE role in determining the outcome of the game. I think I'd be okay with a random lynch. The other problem with a random lynch is that we have a chance of hitting a town PR... or outing one... but I guess that's a risk you take?

We randomly select the lynch. Make them claim. If we don't believe them, we can then continue on with the lynching.

[Hoopla]

Watching how bandwagons form is useful. Randomly choosing the day's lynch loses that information.

We randomly select the lynch. Make them claim. If we don't believe them, we can then continue on with the lynching.

This is pretty role-fishy.

I'm waiting with baited breath for Erik to weigh in.

If the majority of town decides to vote randomly, there still could be information generated. Imagine if we hit scum and watched the buddies try to weedle their way out of the deal.

[Hoopla]

ZAZIE, THANKS SO MUCH FOR MAKING THE THREAD MUCH HARDER FOR A REPLACEMENT TO GET THROUGH AND THN GETTING YOURSELF REPLACED. YOUR A FUCKING STAR.

HAPPY HALOWEEN

Haha, that made me smile.

Also, I would never lynch you tubby.

[Hoopla]

Also, I would never lynch you tubby.

Are you being serious here?

Well, never say never. I have no desire to lynch him now, though.

[Hoopla]

hmm maybe i just love reck ,,, like alot ,, he is my idol and i wanna be just like him when i get big

Breadcrumbing a lover role?

HAHAHA and you accused me of rolefishing earlier in the game.

[Hoopla]

I wasn't being serious... obviously... I'm just pointing out how irrelevant to the game that post is. Most of tubby's posts have been like that.

Why not just say it's irrelevant then? That certainly wasn't anywhere near the message I got when I read your post.

[Hoopla]

hmm maybe i just love reck ,,, like alot ,, he is my idol and i wanna be just like him when i get big

Breadcrumbing a lover role?

How on earth was I supposed to read that as a sarcastic point about the irrelevance of tubby's posts?

[Hoopla]

Tubby, who should we lynch?

[Hoopla]

well my opinion is still going to stand on going for Hoopla. I also don't like REC, but the JW... I never concidered him, even though he has been on me for the most of the game. Even though it's a little tempting to jump on that wagon, I'm staying with Hoopla till I think it better to be off.

Be reasonable Suave, would you really want to kill me?

[Hoopla]

What makes you so certain?

[Hoopla]

Now, regarding your huge WoT:

You have all sorts of color-coding with no explanation of what it means, and I get the feeling that understanding that is crucial to seeing your point. You also quoted a bunch of posts with almost no analysis. I do not see the similarities you're talking about. Are you saying that, for example, "proposing a random lynch" and "advocating a point system" comprise a similarity or a difference? I see it more as a difference. Could you do a bit of analysis, draw some parallels alongside the quotewall to demonstrate your conclusions instead of presenting the quotes alone? Or, if you did do that inside the quotes through your color scheme (which I find more likely than the no-analysis bit), could you explain that?

The colour coding is due to me posting in colours that game. Mostly indigo.

--

I want to be on the record saying I don't support Julien OR Suave's lynch. Suave seems like the go-to lynch for scum, and I don't understand why julien has so many votes.

I think xRECKONERx is the only viable choice for lynch today. This is a gut feeling I find difficult to quantify, but after a reread of the thread, I always find my eyes gravitating toward what he posts. Some of this is to do with contradictory stances on things I've said or done.

Here a couple that have been highlighted already. Rolefishing;

Why are you so keen to claim?

Vote: Hoopla

Rolefishing.

hmm maybe i just love reck ,,, like alot ,, he is my idol and i wanna be just like him when i get big

Breadcrumbing a lover role?

Note: I don't think either instances are scummy - what I find scummy is the contradictory stance Reck takes. Accusing my innocuous question as fishing, when being exceedingly more blatant than me in the quote I showed. It reeks of a player hunting with a toolbag of wiki-tells than any genuine logic or reasoning, which is barely better than guessing.

--

Next, look how easily he is persuaded into thinking random lynch is a viable idea. Here is his initial reaction;

Random lynch? Really, Hoop?

I don't think that's a good option. I think we need to make the most informed lynch possible, and randomly lynching is NOT the most informed.

I don't think I was any more convincing in between my initial proposal and follow up posts, but now look what he thinks;

I'm conflicted on that topic... D1 info is important, but honestly, I don't remember an endgame scenario where the D1 information played a HUGE role in determining the outcome of the game.

I think I'd be okay with a random lynch

. The other problem with a random lynch is that we have a chance of hitting a town PR... or outing one... but I guess that's a risk you take?

Whether he was/is for or against a random lynch, I don't care. What I care about is how quick he was to jump to his predetermined assumptions about gameplay based on what he's heard, rather than what he's sat down and thought about himself. This is reflected in how easily he was persuaded into a position nearly opposite of his initial one.

This makes me think he's barely thinking - playing by preconceived notions of scumhunting, while not actually understanding why a scumtell is a scumtell.

--

In conclusion, is this scummy? Not overly, but it's the best alternate I have to julien and Suave, who aren't worthy of death yet.

Unvote, Vote: xRECKONERx

[Hoopla]

@Hoop:

1. I wasn't breadcrumbing in the second post: it was more of a joke and was made to point out how unhelpful tubby was being.

2. So it's not okay for me to change my mind after thinking it over? Ah. I see. I changed my mind because I thought back and realized... people might make too big a deal over D1 lynches, and they're rarely ever correct, so random lynching would be okay. If you'll note, I've changed my mind again since then, because I realized there IS information to gain from a D1 educated-guess-lynch.

What a weak-ass case.

1. We're talking about fishing, not breadcrumbing.

I'm already acknowledging it's weak. Why are you restating what I already said?

[Hoopla]

I don't think julien is scum, and I don't understand why he has votes. Suave, maybe, but his wagon is awfully convenient. If it came down to it, I'd vote Suave over Julien, if only because his wagon is more informative than Juliens. I expect scum to be on Suave's wagon.

[Hoopla]

my opinion on hoopla stands, and I've said why before. I also just have a nagging feeling. and it's pretty much because of the different way she's playing now, IMO.

what do you mean?

[Hoopla]

I believe Suave's claim, and we do need a lynch. I don't think we have the numbers on RECK. Okay.

Unvote, vote: Julien

[Hoopla]

Guys, it's five hours to deadline. Someone drop a hammer please. Otherwise we're going to end up no-lynching.

[Hoopla]

Nice work tubby.

[Hoopla]

Nuwen, I'm kind of upset with the frequency you replace out of games, just because you're bored. I suggest considering your commitment a bit seriously before you jump into games. You're quick to berate tubby for deteriorating site meta, but you do nothing at all to try and fix it. If anything, replacing out of games is more damaging than a town joker.

I'm still not thrilled with tubby's play though - I find it hilarious that MrSuave shot Reck over tubby on Night 2. Like Nuwen said, policy lynches need to be resorted to a little more frequently. In fact my play was really bad, almost deliberately bad, but I thought I could get away with it. Well done to MrSuave for shooting me.

I'm well impressed with how my scumteam played on day 1, which made me feel better about dying, because I doubted they were going to get strung up through interactions from me. Good work guys. This is the scum QT for anyone curious.

Howard, I thought your modding was professional and energetic - it's obvious you were interested in your game and ensuring it was run well. I don't have any complaints - I'd be happy to play in one of your games in the future.

[Hoopla]

I hope you rekindle your interest in mafia some time in the future Nuwen - I'll be sad to see you go. *pats head*

[Hoopla]

well I shot rec for... I think for what he did the day before. I didn't think the town would let tubby slide for long, that's why I didn't shoot him. I was going for another good scum kill. what I wanted to know was why scum didn't kill me N-1

We talked about it in our quick topic, which I posted on the previous page. Our reasoning was that if you were to shoot me, my play incriminated other players like Nuwen, MacLock and Reck - we doubted you'd target Torqez or iamausername, so it made sense to keep you alive so we could get the extra kill and lower the numbers quicker.