Mini 865 -- Evil Eyes (Over)

[Nuwen]

/confirm

[Nuwen]

If you want your rules to be read and deemed relevant, you should probably edit out the IC sections in normal games.

[Nuwen]

Why are you guys wagoning my scumbuddies? That isn't very nice.

Vote: ekiM

y halo thar.

[Nuwen]

MrSuave: How old are you, and how long have you been playing Mafia?

[Nuwen]

what does my age hav to do with anything?
and my startdate is under my pic. and if you must know, I was never in a noobie game. ever. But I have played RL mafia before this forum mafia. and again, what does that have to do with anything in this game?

I asked a question and I expect an answer, not an evasion. Learning fringe information about other players rims their posts with context.

How many games have you played on MS? My search page is doing that refresh blank thing.

[Nuwen]

but the age I don't really see why that would be relevant.

Because the tone and style of your posts sounds like a gerbil on amphetamines, and your age might reveal whether that's hyperactivity or game-relevant jitters. I'm assuming that since it's such a big deal, you're quite young. That's fine.

I hate self-voting. Like four of my last games have had a self-voter in it. Here's what will happen:

• Someone will place a vote on Toro, stating that his behavior is anti-town. "If you're town, then you're the only confirmed player in your mind and self-voting is counter to your win condition."
  
• Another player will point out the differences between anti-town behavior and scummy behavior.
  
• A third person still will chime in that even under the paradigm described by person one, self-voting is also contrary to a scum win condition.
  
• Irrelevant to all of the above, someone will do something that's actually scummy. It might be recognized, or it might not be because at least a third of the game is engaged in a discussion that isn't alignment-indicative.

So let's skip right to the someone doing something scummy part.

[Nuwen]

Because the tone and style of your posts sounds like a gerbil on amphetamines, and your age might reveal whether that's hyperactivity or game-relevant jitters. I'm assuming that since it's such a big deal, you're quite young. That's fine.

I'm not quite seeing what you can necessarily garner from MrSuave's age... Age doesn't necessarily translate into hyperactivity that could be used to excuse the jitteriness that MrSuave is exhibiting. Additionally, players within the same age range can have totally different levels of composure in the game, so I don't really think age can be counted in weighing scum tells. I think it's the player's personality in general that helps in weighing.

I never said the behavior was alignment-indicative, only that I didn't know whether is was specific to this game or a general floozyness. Do you think my inquiry is scummy?

Tubby, why haven't you thrown down a random vote?

Post on one account or don't, Hoopla. I h8h8h8h8 having to knit together two accounts posting when reading in isolation.

[Nuwen]

Er.

Just kidding about the double account thing, scumchat addled my brain.

[Nuwen]

I like iamausername's vote on Geek better than any other vote placed thus far, including my own.

[Nuwen]

I like iamausername's vote on Geek better than any other vote placed thus far, including my own.

Alright, with iamausername, I have a bit of an inkling why he may be voting for me since he's modded a game for me before. But why do you like the vote so much? And you still didn't answer my question on exactly what an age reveal from a given player (such as myself) tells you.

Here's why Iam's vote appears unscummy to me and why Geek's reactions are more likely to come from scum than town:

1. From a scum perspective, Iam's vote on Geek would make little sense - he placed it early, without case material to stand on. The intent obviously comes from a non-scum faction pressuring out more information, prioritizing scum hunting over personal appearance.

2. Geek's posts fish for any information, any material, regardless of whether it's alignment indicative. Even after I declined to answer his post 72, he continued to push the age issue.

• I never said the behavior was alignment-indicative, only that I didn't know whether is was specific to this game or a general floozyness. Do you think my inquiry is scummy?

  Then why did you want to know age if you didn't think it was alignment indicative...? I still don't see how age in particular is related to judging a person's particular posting style. For example, according to MrSuave's information, I'm in the same age range as him. How does that bit of information now help you in analyzing me?

  I asked here whether he thought my behavior was scummy or not, but never received a committing answer. Instead, Geek opts to push the age question further, gleaning case material that I've already said is alignment-neutral. He's taken a keen interest in what's been easy to latch onto, not what's valuable in parsing alignment.
  
  And again here.

  Alright, with iamausername, I have a bit of an inkling why he may be voting for me since he's modded a game for me before. But why do you like the vote so much? And you still didn't answer my question on exactly what an age reveal from a given player (such as myself) tells you.

  This is the beginning of a tactic called "muddying the waters," where my question about Suave's age (not alignment indicative, remember) suddenly becomes an important piece of the game to Geek because I chose not to answer him right away.

Why do you think Iam is voting for you, Geek?

[Nuwen]

Unvote, Vote Geekalicious

Suave, stop reading the wiki and use a bit of common sense. A claim is a last measure before you're lynched, not a mechanical action to be taken whenever you hit x number of votes - most votes on you come from the RVS, do you really think you're in danger of being killed right now?

[Nuwen]

I like most of julien's post. He articulates well the issue: Nuwen asked for fringe information, Geek asked Nuwen why Nuwen wanted fringe information, Nuwen held off answering until Geek said Nuwen was scummy. I have a different read on why that back and forth resolved the way it did, however:

1. I took care to explain that I didn't think age was relevant to alignment. This is key. Because I emphasized that the information would contribute to a personality baseline,

not act as case material

, trying to call that act scummy is scummy unto itself. Geek is painting an alignment-neutral action in a negative light.

2. The difference between Nuwen's qualms with Geek and Geek's qualms with Nuwen:

1. Nuwen asks for alignment-independent info.
   
2. Geek inquires why (alignment independent
   so far
   ) Nuwen wants info if it won't be used to hunt scum.
   
3. Nuwen wonders aloud why Geek cares, since the information won't be used in a case (this is the regression that julien pointed out, where our problems with each other seem identical)
   
4. Geek commits to a stance and says Nuwen is scummy for fishing out information that isn't indicative of alignment (here's were Geek becomes scummy - not because he believes I'm scummy, but because he's opportunistically using an alignment neutral action as fuel for a case)

The reasoning is confusing and seems similar. The timing is important. In retrospect, it appears that Geek was looking for a foothold with which he could build a case.

Nuwen, I'm not seeing why scum wouldn't do this. IAUN's vote was basically at the tail end of the RVS in my opinion (see Hoopla's later Suave vote), and as such, didn't need a heck of a lot of reasoning behind it. I can see why he made it, though, if he is town.

I've always thought that votes to end the RVS garner the

most

attention - the first, second (and sometimes third) vote switches of the game are usually picked to death in subsequent post, and I've noticed that scum tend to avoid that type of attention. If a scum player DOES lead the way out of RVS, it's usually with a very strong case (fabricated or not). No stated reason draws attention to Iam, which seems like an action more likely to be taken by a town player poking out information.

[Nuwen]

Tubby needs to post something committing soon. His presence in this game has been chatty, and he isn't tied to any other players at all.

[Nuwen]

How am I opportunistically using information at this point? I've just been trying to ask you questions on why you asked another player a particular question. If you had actually replied to my initial question instead of "declining" as I recall you putting it (in my eyes, a nice rephrasing for "avoiding the question"), then my suspicion level on you wouldn't be nearly as high.

You're still asserting that what I did was more likely to be scum than town, right?

I'm also not comfortable with the wagon on Suave combined with the half-jokes about policy lynching. Reckoner, a good town player's responsibility is to work with what he or she is given. If you can't cope with a posting style, the blame falls on you. Allowing it to influence reads is outright anti-town.

[Nuwen]

What.

[Nuwen]

I know we've had a lot of intermittent downtime (and more is expected), but there are a lot of people lurking through this game right now. I'm looking at you Hoopla, Tubby, ekim.

MacavityLock's interaction with everyone feels hollow too.

[Nuwen]

Do not claim.

(How's that for "coaching?" Just by the way, I fail to see how guiding a player is inherently scummy - leading someone to do something pro-town is also pro-town, while advising them to do something anti-town will get you killed. Anyone who toddles down the coaching road again is either lazy or scum. Or lazy scum.)

[Nuwen]

Mod, could you please prod Tubby too?

[Nuwen]

Nuwen, in 132 you forgot SophisticDoctrine. He's lurking scum, no?

Lurking, yes. He's posted so little that I missed his presence altogether while rereading. Scum? Dunno. I don't approve of lurker lynches and always think forcing a replacement is a better idea.

[Nuwen]

Geek, what do you think of Reckoner's vote on Tubby and Tubby himself?

Hi Hoopla.

[Nuwen]

Without asking, it was already obvious that Suave had nothing more than a mechanical understanding of how a claim goes down.

Hello possum, have you enjoyed your return to mafia so far?

SUPAH FUN.

[Nuwen]

Hi Symbol!

Who is scum?

[Nuwen]

Symbol, your numbers mean nothing without explanations to accompany them. PBPA's without opinion or expansion are a vapid way of appearing active without committing yourself to any stance. What about my 2, 9, 11 and Hoopla's 4, 8, 13, 15 bother you?

How big of a sample size do you typically base meta assumptions on?

[Nuwen]

You don't think FOSes commit to a stance?

Mass FOSes are for pussies and scum. In moderation, a FOS can serve as a supplement to a vote elsewhere in order to spread out pressure. Symbol effectively put more than a quarter of the game on his "suspicious" list, but has made no move to explain himself. It's an easy way to set himself up to join whatever wagon becomes popular ("I found x scummy early on too, see!").

He's done a remarkable job at being active while contributing nothing tangible.

unvote, vote Symbol

.

I also have a problem with a single game meta. A

very large

sample size is necessary to determine whether a behavior is consistent with a single alignment. Meta is especially difficult to develop on newer players (<1 year here), because it takes more than a handful of games to settle into a style; newer players are more likely to adapt, alter, and actively change their play styles while being accustomed to mafia nuances. Anyone using meta tells with such a limited sample size is either dumb or scum.

[Nuwen]

twist into lynch material.

Oh hi simulpost.

You're going to have to do a little more than bold my posts to explain your problem. Is there something I should clarify?

I want everyone that isn't Geek to weigh in on Symbol's foray into the game. I want Toro and Hoopla to speak first, preferably.

[Nuwen]

I'd also like to hear why Symbol is suspicious of Hoopla and what changed between the time he FOS'd Mike and lost interest in him.

[Nuwen]

I really dislike single-sentence responses in games; they skew focus and make replying a royal pain. Just as a heads up, I'm prone to misreading heavily split posts (and I think their posters are equally likely to miss "the point"). Paragraphs are our friends. Nuwen loves and worships the paragraph. Nuwen is far more likely to read and reflect upon your warm, joyous words in paragraph form (no, this doesn't mean I won't read other posts - I'll just light a candle and pray you're struck down by my gods).

It's impossible to tell how many scum are in a game before a set of night actions resolve, but I'd predict ~three in a game this size. Symbolic, do you think you found them all in your first post? I don't see a plain town motivation to announcing a broad spectrum of unexplained suspicion - reaction fishing can come from either alignment. The mass FOS parses as an action more likely to be taken by scum, who need to gain early footholds in wagons and avoid obvious switches.

Iam's unexplained voting differed from Symbolic's because of timing, as I explained before. The first few vote changes out of the RVS draw the entire game's attention. An unexplained vote 8 pages in does not have the same town implications to me (in fact, it's anti-town because it draws

negative

attention to your behavior. If you're town, that's bad. If you're scum, you're granted the opportunity to feel out which wagon you'll be pursuing).

Reread my my 107 very, very slowly. Follow the time-sensitive chain of events. I said that our issues with each other are very similar, separated only by his step towards a vote first.

You're going to explain your suspicions (Hoopla, original read on Mike) or you're going to be lynched. There will be no precedent set in this game that permits players to dance in and out of suspect trains without being held accountable.

try to warp

I call 'em as I see 'em.

[Nuwen]

Why not Geek?

Symbol,
1. You have absolutely no analysis with your posts. Scummy.
2. If you're going to put something like this for example:

Nuwen. Isos. 2, 9, 11.

where you just post the numbers, then at least make the numbers hyperlinks. It is going to be painful to go back through the thread and find each of these posts the way that you've labeled them.
3. Then, at the end of your post when you've finally done some sort of explanation for your previous reasoning, you slap your vote on iamausername with no explanation. WTF?

After this post, I don't think Symbol and Greek are likely to be scum together. I want to hear Geek's reads elsewhere to see whether or not they're more town-motivated than his earlier posts.

[Nuwen]

*

not likely to be scum together.

Important distinction there.

[Nuwen]

Echoing the catchup posts, I had a rougher than expected weekend.

[Nuwen]

Stop.

Stop right now. I'm replacing out if I have to read any more of this shit. Put your catch up in one or two cohesive posts or don't bother at all.

[Nuwen]

That scumlist is meaningless after a page and a half of disjointed questions, plus "notes" and "not likes." Congratulations, Zaz, you've wasted pieces of both your life and mine.

Why, for example, am I leaning town if I'm pushing cases on both of your most town players? Do you think our interactions look like town vs. town? If so, why?

That's

useful information. Your stupid vague spam reveals nothing, aside from your inability to string more than one post together into a cogent analysis.

In fact...

Vote: ZazieR

.

This is a policy vote (one of my first on the site, I think). I am calling for Zaz's lynch for the salvation of this site's meta. That replace-in behavior needs to be purged from with fire. I never want to see it again.

[Nuwen]

Disagreeing is not a scumtell.

No, but trying to get your town reads lynched

is

(or should be).

I've never had to throw down a policy vote in my mafia career. This should tell you something about how ineffective and irritating that slew of word vomit was.

[Nuwen]

Because you don't consider relativist stances like that alignment indicative, I'm calling your scum list arbitrary and vapid.

Use a bloody notepad or sticky notes application.

[Nuwen]

http://dictionary.reference.com/

Spanish was my first language. If you play in English, speak English.

[Nuwen]

I slept a little and bought cigarettes so I'm not as grouchy anymore. I still want to lynch Zaz (and encourage everyone to do the same in future games) for that abomination. Between Crypto's activity spam (and Crypto being Crypto) and Zaz's recent spam, this game is now even more annoying to read.

Mass FOSes are for pussies and scum.

Nuwen, have you stated this belief/opinion/tell in a previous game? If so, link please?

Always. My recent invitational game,

All of these FOSes need to turn into words.

Unvote
Vote:LlamaFluff

FOS: ZazieR, Lord Gurgi

And again in Incognito's mini 780,

FOSes are for scum distancing and pussies:

~~~

If anyone wants an example of why Zaz's style is detrimental to games, look no further than the first few posts:

Post 82 – Then why no support for it,

Nuwen

?

Post 72 –

Nuwen

, why did you ignore this post?

Geek

’s soft attack is noted.

Both of these questions are answered in following posts. It's pretty obvious that Zaz did one read-through and posted isolated analysis along the way. This method of scumhunting isn't scumhunting at all; it's the appearance of activity, but takes into account

nothing

about the game as a cohesive whole. Unacceptable. Answering Zaz's stupid questions actually distracts away from contemporary issues and revisits lines of questioning that've already been pursued. If it weren't her standard replace-in style, I would call it scummy to the max.

Er, aren't questions, notes, and dislikes the crux of scum hunting? I'm not saying I like Zazie's style, but . . . I don't see the logic in lynching Zaz (at this point).

Post 89 – Noted how

SD

barges in without adding something.

Post 119 – Coaching from

Reck

is noted.

Post 151 –

Tubby

’s hypocrism is noted.

Post 164 – Not liking this answer from

Hoopla

at all.

Noted, noted, noted, not liking - has anyone else

noted

that these pieces of analysis float independent and unexplained? We're far enough into the game that "not liking" a post will be easy enough to explain; gut reactions out of the RVS are long behind us. Zaz proves himself capable of committing to a stance and expanding on why a post bothers him,

Post 165 – Very scummy post from

Iam

. Stating that he agrees with Reck’s accusation against Hoopla for rolefishing, yet never pointing it out himself. Stating he agrees with the smiley scumtell brought up by Reck, yet also never pointing it out himself.

Why weren't other "notes" and "not likes" even the same treatment?

[Nuwen]

For the sake of my brain and everyone else's, here are Zaz's posts in one place. We can pretend the last page never happened and just kill him.

Post 41 –

Suave

, why were you promoting the Hoopla wagon? And why did you only call out Hoopla, while Reck was ‘promoting’ the Iam-wagon as well?
Post 44 –

Suave

pointing fingers at Hoopla is noted.
Post 46 –

Suave

, does this mean that a RVS bandwagon consisting out of 1 (Though it’s no bandwagon then) or 2 votes is helpful? If so, why and why is this different for RVS bandwagons with 3 or more votes?
Post 58 – If you’re talking about Korlash’s game,

Julien

, it seems that Suave was scum there. So can you elaborate on his play there?
Post 59 –

Suave

– what was your first game? Link?
Post 66 –

Hoopla

, how serious were you about the policy lynch ‘suggestion’?
Post 72 –

Nuwen

, why did you ignore this post?

Geek

’s soft attack is noted.
Post 82 – Then why no support for it,

Nuwen

?
Post 89 – Noted how

SD

barges in without adding something.
Post 93 – How come you stated that you didn’t like Hoopla’s third vote on Iam’s bandwagon, but not SD’s fourth vote against you,

Suave

?
How come nobody mentioned Hoopla's vote against Suave in this post (Until Symbol pointed it out)?
Post 102 – Agreed with this. The only thing around the Geek-Nuwen argument that interests me is that they both ignored questions. I don’t think that anything else that doesn’t have to do with this, can tell something about their alignment.
Post 109 – How do you see this as coaching,

ML

?
Post 119 – Coaching from

Reck

is noted.
Post 122 – How does that description not fit ‘coaching’,

Reck

? Also, you’re voting him, so why give the one who you’re voting ‘advice’?
Post 127 – This really makes

Reck

’s post in which he coaches Suave scummy.
Post 144 – Not liking this FoS from

Reck

.
Post 151 –

Tubby

’s hypocrism is noted.
Post 161 – And

Suave

ignored a question.
But

Julien

, what do you mean with this question?
Post 163 – What’s mea culpa,

ekiM

?
Post 164 – Not liking this answer from

Hoopla

at all.
Post 165 – Very scummy post from

Iam

. Stating that he agrees with Reck’s accusation against Hoopla for rolefishing, yet never pointing it out himself. Stating he agrees with the smiley scumtell brought up by Reck, yet also never pointing it out himself.
Post 186 – Why point out Nuwen’s joke post about her alignment, but not Toro’s,

Symbol

?
Post 189 – Not liking Symbol. He basically let others do the scumhunting, while trying to appear active.
EDIT: Liking him a lot more now that he’s explaining who he finds suspicious with reasons.
Post 195 – Why did you get a vaguely lurker scum read from ekiM, but not from any other lurker? And how did this change?
Post 202 – Julien stated that he thinks that Suave’s play is equal to the way he plays here. Why do you disagree?

Hoopla

, why no response to what Symbol stated about you?
Post 208 – With which points against Hoopla do you agree and why,

Reck

?
Post 211 – Why did you only point out Reck, while the guy whom I replaced did the same and actually in a joking way,

Iam

?
Also, not liking the last paragraph.
Post 220 – I don’t see the contradiction from Iam you’re stating to see,

Geek

Post 223 – Why did you ask for Reck in particular,

Symbol

?
Post 227 – Anything else you want to comment on of the stuff you’ve missed,

Julien

?[/quote][quote="ZazieR"]Not liking it that

Geek

requested replacement.
Post 245 – Why this vote,

Tubby

?

[Nuwen]

Unvote, vote Zazier

.

There we go.

[Nuwen]

Speaking of Mike, hi Mike! How are you doing? How's the family? I'm glad I get to play with you again, Incog's Chosen game was funsies. Who are two people you currently think are scum, two you think are town (with a brief explanation why).

[Nuwen]

This game is incredibly dead. Tubby, you're lurking, actively.

stop being lame there is far more scuminess afoot then what i am doin.

This is good. You've confirmed that you believe other people in this thread are more scummy than you are. Names and why?

If you could shoot anyone in the thread

right now

, who would it be?

[Nuwen]

right now I think that xRECKONERx is pretty sketchy with his wanting to just policy lynch me for no reason, but that might be a bit of OMGUS

What about my policy vote on Zaz? Is that summy, or do you find Reck "sketchy" simply because he wants

you

dead? That's something called OMGUS.

[Nuwen]

*wonders if there's a jester in the setup*

... why would you post that? What possible town benefit could come from introducing speculation about rarer-than-live-cow role with

zero

reason to believe it exists.

I don't want to hear anyone's thoughts on whether or not Tubby is a jester. I don't want anyone to even think about the word jester. It's one of those unbalanced, almost bastardly roles that has no place in a real game. The suggestion that anyone is or might be a jester is a step towards saying the town shouldn't lynch anti-town players, a scummy precedent to set up.

Tubby, why is replacing out of a game scummy? Flaking tends to be alignment neutral, except in very specific personal metas. Ether, for example, gets into a pattern of lurking and flakish behavior

without fail

as scum).

If replacing out is always a scumtell to you, why was Geek not on your top suspects list a few posts ago? Your scumtells aren't consistent with each other, which implies that you're trying to force cases where available but aren't actually hunting for scum.

[Nuwen]

"That's scummy."
"LOL JK GUYZ"

[Nuwen]

That's the point I was most concerned about. Do you think a slightly better chance of hitting scum now is worth the information we'd lose from the end-half of where the votes go? Do you think any information can be generated from who agrees to a random lynch and who doesn't? How important is D1 information in the scheme of the whole game?

D1 information is invaluable - by random lynching today, we ensure that the rest of the game will be in a near-constant Day 1. Bandwagon and voting information is essential to solidifying contextual links between players. A higher chance of hitting scum today does not trump an increased chance of hitting scum for the rest of the game.

[Nuwen]

I don't think Tubby is scummy. He's difficult to get a read on, but all of his behavior has been strikingly

anti-town

- not fitting of a scummy mafia player. Reasons to lynch place scummy > anti-town > neutral/no read/policy (but obviously lynching Zaz is such an altruistic piece of policy that we should do it anyway).

Pssst Zaz, I'm still voting for you.

My blind spots in this game are down to Mike, Geek/EriktheRed, and Suave.

[Nuwen]

Splicing anti-town behavior from scummy behavior is not a fallacy. There's a difference between acting against the town's best interests and directly acting on scum's best interests.

[Nuwen]

right now I think that xRECKONERx is pretty sketchy with his wanting to just policy lynch me for no reason, but that might be a bit of OMGUS

And throughout all of this, there is nothing from Suave...

nope, nothing from me,

because now we're all just pointing at eachother, and nothing is getting done.

my opinion on the random lynch is that I do not support it in any way. if we do that, we waste a whole day. I'm sticking with my hoopla behavior case/theory for now, because I still don't have a good feeling about her play this game. (and I know I sound like a broken record)

That's mafia in a nutshell, and it gets quite a bit done in the long run. What you see as "pointing at each other" will be important tomorrow - committing to a stance on a player (or avoiding alignment discussion on a player) are telling after someone flips.

I want to know what you think about the rest of the game. Aside from Hoopla, who is scum?

[Nuwen]

Your

singular

catchup post. Yes. Hi.

[Nuwen]

Crypto was just being facetious.

Unvote

That being said, I think just 'randomly' voting for anybody doesn't serve the same purpose. And suggestion of the idea, could even be made to draw attention away from our current lines of thinking...

RE: Everything Else.
For me, right now, I have somewhat of an overview of everyone (but reading through 17 pages wasn't easy). I think I still want a re-read before delving too deeply into who else I find scummy.

This is what I'm most interested in: If Hoopla was trying to draw attention away from something, what is that something?

And, of course, I want to hear your analysis of players besides yourself (or your role slot) and Hoopla.

[Nuwen]

I like you already. Let's talk about the current wagon on Suave and Tubby <-> Reck. Suave's wagon is one of classic opportunism. There's gotta be scum on it. If you had to pick someone on it to lynch, Torq, who would it be?

What have you taken away from Tubby's fixation on Reck and Reck's willingness to lynch Suave or Tubby?

Mike, you've gone all quiet again.

I think geekalicious is reasonably likely to be scum, but I realize now we probably can't think of lynching him until he gets replaced (for claiming purposes).

Oh and geek got replaced; could lynch his replacement.

I'm a little bothered by this. When I read post 1, I glanced over the "for claiming purposes" addendum and focused only on "can't think of lynching him until he gets replaced." After rereading, I'm now more concerned by the parenthetical statement - pulling out claims is

not

the best reason to value a replacement on Day 1. A replacement needs to speak, commit, and tether himself to the game on day 1; valuing claim ability indicates that you might already know that slot's alignment.

[Nuwen]

Make the case. No more stupid

feeling

cases in this thread, please. Doesn't anyone else realize that accepting gut reads sets a precedent that allows scum to push cases on nothing? "Something

just felt off

, let's lynch him!"

As I said earlier, "gut" doesn't fly past a few pages into the game. Have you read Shanba's scumhunting thread?. Adel describes my attitude towards gut reads perfectly: if your read is based on tone or intuition, it's no better than random. If you can recall specific facts and instances that contribute to your gut read, I'm more likely to believe that you're semi-consciously reacting to tells.

[Nuwen]

This game just got really weird. Rereading Reck and Tubby, but especially Tubby. I'm not ignoring SymbolErikMikeTorq, this is just more pressing for me to figure out before dealing with that onslaught.

[Nuwen]

Hi! I'm back, I'm alive. After a nice, clean reread of the thread I'm comfortable with either a Tubby or Suave lynch. I was originally concerned that Tubby/Suave didn't have enough interaction with other players to use for Day 2 reads, but they've both established enough stances (and have been commented on by everyone else) to be more valuable dead than alive.

[Nuwen]

Your wall of text case is based on abstracts. If you have something you want me to address, ask. The existence of your case (as opposed to the threat of one) is more important to me than its contents right now. The basis will be more important down the road, after a few deaths explain Day 1 perspectives. I wanted to see an explanation to know one was there.

[Nuwen]

Hi Nuwen again! I asked you a question in 426. An answer please.

Suave's wagon is one of classic opportunism. There's gotta be scum on it.

Is this true of the geek-wagon as well, or only the Suave-wagon? Is this negated if Suave is actually scum?

I don't see how the wagons on Geek and Suave are comparable - Suave is going to be lynched for being quite useless, inexperienced, and one of the weaker links in the game.

No. If Suave flips scum, expect an early/mid wagon bus from at least one other team member. I don't think that Suave is any more likely to be scum than random, however.

[Nuwen]

Tubby, how does it feel to have your non-contribution and belligerent "my playstyle is UNIQUE" attitude almost single-handedly lose a game?

What a mess. Sorry I disappeared, but honestly, I saw this game was going to continue in the same direction and it hurt my soul to read it. This site needs to begin policy lynching with the same frequency it used to.

[Nuwen]

The best thing you can do for yourself and the poor saps you'll play with in the future is to admit fault and fix it. The "fuck off, you did stuff wrong too!" attitude is exactly what is deteriorating the meta of mafiascum. I can't figure out what it's a symptom of, but policy lynching seems like the right cure. You haven't yet asked "what can I do to improve?" If your "normal play" infuriates your peers and is ineffective, you

should

have a natural desire to change.

Torqez played the strongest scum game, I think. He avoided Iam altogether in favor of letting the town self-destruct, and he/his role slot didn't have much interaction with Hoopla either. Because of the start/stop nature of Day 1 and Day 2's speed lynch, those gaps in communication weren't as obvious as they should have been.

Power to Suave for hitting scum, but I feel like he shot Hoopla with her being no more likely to be scum than random. See above trend about lack of policy lynches resulting in more scum leeway. Soon, the optimal scum play will be to post lolcats and not comment on the game at all.

[Nuwen]

Oh, and thanks for modding Howard~

[Nuwen]

to pull out one of my favorite scumchat quotes,

12:24:18 PM Mercuriala: The best thing you can do for yourself as a player is be discontent with your current level of play.
12:24:32 PM Mercuriala: Being happy with yourself is just another example of why you're terrible.

[Nuwen]

Nuwen, I'm kind of upset with the frequency you replace out of games, just because you're bored. I suggest considering your commitment a bit seriously before you jump into games. You're quick to berate tubby for deteriorating site meta, but you do nothing at all to try and fix it. If anything, replacing out of games is more damaging than a town joker.

I'm upset with the frequency I replace out of games too. But it's fairer to my team to replace out rather than become a liability; I replace out because I'm uninterested, when a game is a dumb trainwreck, or when a game ceases to be a game and becomes a chore. I'm not a fun person to be around when I'm irate or resent having to post. My solution has been to play less mafia. I predict I'll phase out from the site within ~3 months, but I'm not completely disillusioned yet.

A large part of the problem is that the average player in my recent games is neither as good nor as fun to play with as the average player was ~9-12 months ago. I've tried to come up with a singular theory about the rapid decline, but it's difficult to measure unquantifiable qualities like "fun" and "good player."

[Nuwen]

I feel so foolish; I was actually determined that Mr. Suave was Mafia.

I'd really like to know what you were thinking... two scum groups (with a missing kill?)? Suave as an SK? In either case, going after the guy who shot the first scum of the game was a bad, bad idea. Even if scum had gotten Suave into the endgame and perpetuated some SK paranoia, his

confirmed ability

is more useful to the town alive than dead. If you really thought he was an SK and not a vig, the correct play was to request that he shoot himself.