Mini 862 ~ Mafia of Order (Game Over!)

[Cobalt]

Sorry, other way around, sky.
Claim: Micaiah.

[Goatrevolt]

Just in case you missed that part up above, VP wants to lynch me for having a falseclaim ability and said "he didn't say he was town, just that he wasn't mafia". Town win condition only requires the mafia to die, ergo VP is not town.

Fallacy alert!

Cobalt's Premise: All townies

only

want to lynch mafia.
Cobalt's Conclusion: VP is not town because VP believes Cobalt is a third party.
Problem: There are other possible win conditions that could be detrimental to the town. This argument is given further credence by Sens semi-claim of multiple wincons.

It's really not a fallacy at all. Do you have the town win condition?

I really hate the wagon on Cobalt. I can't point to a single vote on him and say "that's a good vote." Sens is probably the only one on the wagon who actually strikes me as town, and it's completely unrelated to his vote.

Voting him because of gaming the mod is dumb. I can think of two quick and easy town fake claims and why they would be beneficial off the top of my head. I fully expect this game to be "gaming the mod proof" based on what I have seen of Vi in mafia discussion. Behavioral. Analysis. He has claimed that he has a fake claim and is town. Again, this is a bold and probably dumb move as scum, because it requires him to have 2 town role claims.

The reason for the recent votes are bad, and suggest that people either don't understand the town win condition or don't have the town win condition.

[Goatrevolt]

EBWODP: Just saw the last 4 posts or so. Sens, how could he be selling BS when he's selling the town win con? Please explain.

[SensFan]

EBWODP: Just saw the last 4 posts or so. Sens, how could he be selling BS when he's selling the town win con? Please explain.

He's not selling the Town wincon.
He admitted to having a fakeclaim, and not having the Town wincon.

That, and his fucking softclaims. People need to be taught they can't get away with that shit.

[Cobalt]

I have the town win condition. When did I say I didn't?
also, I'm curious as to why you'd want a full claim from MICAIAH. I'd think the lack of a counterclaim would be enough to prove I am who I say I am, and claiming my ability wouldn't help convince you I'm telling the truth.

[SensFan]

I have the town win condition. When did I say I didn't?
also, I'm curious as to why you'd want a full claim from MICAIAH. I'd think the lack of a counterclaim would be enough to prove I am who I say I am, and claiming my ability wouldn't help convince you I'm telling the truth.

You claimed to have a different wincon than VP Baltar, and the context implied that you were referring to not having the Town wincon.
I don't know who the fuck Micaiah is, and don't really give a rat's ass. Not only are scummyscumscum softclaims scummy, but we know the Scum (and you, specifically) got a fakeclaim.

Lynch lynch lynch.

[Goatrevolt]

EBWODP: Just saw the last 4 posts or so. Sens, how could he be selling BS when he's selling the town win con? Please explain.

He's not selling the Town wincon.
He admitted to having a fakeclaim, and not having the Town wincon.

He is selling the town win condition. The town win condition is to get rid of the mafia. That says absolutely nothing about any possible 3rd parties. Unless there is a 3rd party who makes hunting and eliminating mafia difficult I see no reason to waste our time with them. Based on your claim, I'm guessing we're looking at a 3rd party with some sort of alternate-win con that is not exclusive with the town or scum win con, otherwise the town would need them dead to win.

Admitting to having a fakeclaim. Yes. You don't see any way how a townie could possibly have a fake claim?

That, and his fucking softclaims. People need to be taught they can't get away with that shit.

Personally, I don't see why this is a big deal on a theoretical standpoint. I see town soft-claim just as much as scum. The only times I can remember me soft-claiming I've been town every time. If you are convinced the player is scum, force them to full claim. If you're wishy-washy, then the soft claim might be enough to lead you elsewhere. I don't get why this is such an issue.

I don't know anything about the flavor behind this game. No clue who Micaiah is or if that should mean anything. I'm guessing it does, though, based on how Cobalt is toting it around.

[Goatrevolt]

You claimed to have a different wincon than VP Baltar, and the context implied that you were referring to not having the Town wincon.

No...*facepalm*...

Sens, read that interaction again. Read the town win condition, then look at what both players said...

[SensFan]

You claimed to have a different wincon than VP Baltar, and the context implied that you were referring to not having the Town wincon.

No...*facepalm*...

Sens, read that interaction again. Read the town win condition, then look at what both players said...

I read it again. I still see him claiming 3rd-party wincon.

No, I don't see why the hell Town would ever need a fakeclaim, do you? Not to mention, he's only softclaimed once. He needs to finish that claim, then make another full claim.

Combined with the fact he was passionate about wanting to know everyone's post caps, this is a total lock on a Scum.

[Cobalt]

I have the town win condition. When did I say I didn't?
also, I'm curious as to why you'd want a full claim from MICAIAH. I'd think the lack of a counterclaim would be enough to prove I am who I say I am, and claiming my ability wouldn't help convince you I'm telling the truth.

You claimed to have a different wincon than VP Baltar, and the context implied that you were referring to not having the Town wincon.

I don't know who the fuck Micaiah is, and don't really give a rat's ass.

Not only are scummyscumscum softclaims scummy, but we know the Scum (and you, specifically) got a fakeclaim.

Lynch lynch lynch.

this is the part where you stop talking.
I said I have a different wincon from VP because I know I'm town and I think he's scum. Nothing in the context implied I was claiming a non-town wincon. Also, go look up who Micaiah is BEFORE you spam requests for my lynch. Here's a hint: she's the main character of the game this mafia is based on. Here's the game cover:

See that chick in the middle? White air, bloom effects, idealistic expression? Micaiah. This is the equivalent of claiming Cloud in an FF7 game. How about you look up some flavor before lynching the guy claiming the protagonist.

preview edit: I suggest everyone who hasn't played Radiant Dawn at least read the wiki entry before we decide Ike would make a good lynch or something else retarded
and sens, I did not claim 3rd party wincon, WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT

[SensFan]

First of all, I don't give a rat's ass about the flavour of this game.
Second of all, I don't know who the fuck Cloud is.
Third of all, finish your Massaih (or wtf you claimed) claim.
Fourth of all, make your other full claim.
Fifth of all, explain why Town got a fake claim.
Sixth of all, I've read that exchange with even the benefit of hindsight, I still see it as claiming 3rd-party, especially with all the insistance that we should leave whoever the 3rd-party is alive.

LYNCHLYNCHLYNCH.

[Goatrevolt]

Sens...seriously, you are not reading this with any level of clarity.

He did not claim 3rd party win con. He attacked VP Baltar because VP Baltar wanted to lynch him because Baltar thought he was 3rd party despite that

not being relevant to the town win condition

.

Sens: There is no reason the town needs to lynch a 3rd party even if they claimed now, because it is unnecessary for us to win. For going back and reading this with hindsight, you clearly keep forgetting to read the actual TOWN WIN CONDITION.

People, this is not difficult.

Town win condition: get rid of

MAFIA

.

Are mafia 3rd party? No. No they are not. Should we be hunting 3rd party? No, no we shouldn't. Even if we should be hunting 3rd party, did Cobalt imply that he was 3rd party? No, no he did not. This is not graduate physics...

[Goatrevolt]

EBWODP:

A suggestion: If you find yourself running out of posts for any reason at any point in the game, you should claim your role in your last remaining post or be policy lynched. Sound fair? Maybe 3 posts from the end or something so there is time to discuss.

Nobody should "run out of posts accidentally" and go unclaimed and force the town to make an uneducated decision on them.

[SensFan]

Maybe the 3rd wincon is another Mafia. Maybe the third wincon is one that is mutually exclusive with the Town (such as a Lyncher or Jester that ends the game if they win).

The fact I think he's 3rd-party is only a small part of this, though. There is no chance I unvote him as long as I'm alive if I don't get 2 fullclaims in his next post.

[Cobalt]

Oh Sens. You're so cute.
goat, no need to worry, my A ability lets me give people posts by sacrificing my own, so as long as I don't burn through all 85 really fast we shouldn't have that problem. Yes, this is my ability. Yes, it is verifiable. Yes, I am willing to test it tonight.

Maybe the third wincon is one that is mutually exclusive with the Town (such as a Lyncher or Jester that ends the game if they win).

Can't be one. READ THE RULES OF THE GAME, SENS. Why is this so hard to understand for you? That would be a factional win condition if it ends the game. But due to the wording of the town wincon it doesn't conflict with the town wincon unless it requires some mafia to be alive. therefore, any nontown, nonmafia wincondition MUST be an individual wincondition and therefore DOES NOT end the game. It's in the RULES.
also, why are you asking for 2 claims when I have 1 role?
I'm Micaiah, townie priestess. my role is sacrificer, I have the ability I listed above, the information that Leonardo is not in the game and is a good safe claim, and a Tarh-style falseclaim. I assume I got the safe and false claims because MICAIAH IS THE MOST OBVIOUS TOWN ROLE IN THE GAME AND AN INSTANT #1 NIGHTKILL CHOICE, which you would know if you bothered to learn the flavor of the game you signed up for.

[Goatrevolt]

If the 3rd party win condition is another mafia, then they wouldn't be 3rd party. If the 3rd party is mutually exclusive with the town, then the town win condition would point out that they need to be dead to win otherwise it wouldn't be a balanced game.

Those explanations don't make sense.

I would prefer that Cobalt does not claim. Not one of the players on his wagon has presented a single valid reason to vote him or why he should claim. It is instead entirely fueled by illogical reasons, plain dumb reasons, or people who seem to still be unable to read or process the text of the town win condition.

Worst wagon I've seen in a long time.

[SensFan]

Let us assume that there is a Lynch in the game. Let us assume that this Lyncher wins by lynching his target.

Let us further assume all Win Conditions are of the exclusive variety.

Then if the Lyncher lynches his target first, he wins.
If the Town kills the Mafia first, Town wins.

How complicated is that?

[Cobalt]

Let us assume that there is a Lynch in the game. Let us assume that this Lyncher wins by lynching his target.

Let us further assume all Win Conditions are of the exclusive variety.

Then if the Lyncher lynches his target first, he wins.
If the Town kills the Mafia first, Town wins.

How complicated is that?

if the lynchee is mafia, hilarity ensues.
ALL factional wincons in this game aside from the town one MUST REQUIRE that that some mafia be alive or there is a chance that it and the town wincon will both resolve. Also, why wouldn't the hypothetical lyncher have an individual win condition?

goat, it's an awesome wagon, in that it's a goldmine of people voting an easy target with weaksauce reasons, eg coldstarrysky, VP, juls

[SensFan]

And that settles it.

Expect me to lurk a bunch today, in the interest of saving posts, since I really don't have all that many left, and I've explained over and over why Cobalt is the clear lynch.

[Juls]

I'm Micaiah, townie priestess. my role is sacrificer, I have the ability I listed above, the information that Leonardo is not in the game and is a good safe claim, and a Tarh-style falseclaim. I assume I got the safe and false claims because MICAIAH IS THE MOST OBVIOUS TOWN ROLE IN THE GAME AND AN INSTANT #1 NIGHTKILL CHOICE, which you would know if you bothered to learn the flavor of the game you signed up for.

Problems:
1) Why would the most protown player need a false claim unless said player was FORCED to claim in day? It's not like they can smell you and go...hmmm...smells like Micaiah to me...lets lynch him!

2) I don't know anything about this game/show/flavor/whatever so I don't know what roles are protown/not protown.

3) I am going to

Unvote

for now because we have some time and we probably do need to get as much information as we can. I also need to research "Micaiah" and the other name you mentioned because it is a bit ballsy to throw

two

names out there if you are scum that you say are townish...unless...you are using your partners fake claim as well. Yeah, I have to think about this one a little bit.


Where is VP? I would like to hear his thoughts.

[SensFan]

Oh, and as for the jibe about flavour, I wasn't even told about the flavour when I signed up, if I recall correctly. I found out when I checked my Role PM.

The fact you still claim that your role must be Town because of the oh-so-uberness of the Massiah in spite of the fact we know the Scum have fakeclaims is further reason for your lynch.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I'm not lynching Cobalt based off what I've seen so far and Sens makes me want to /headdesk until my brains leak from my ears, but he's probably town as well. I'm comfortable with my vote where it is.

[Vi]

Sothe, sometimes, every other thing you say is like an ode to Ike. I know you fought beside him. I know you owe him your life. And I know you want to be just like him... But to the people of Daein, he's the man who crushed us three years ago. Some would even call him our archenemy. If we hadn't lost the war to that man, Daein wouldn't be in the mess it's in now. You know that.

Vote Count:

Cobalt (L-3) ~ VP Baltar, SensFan,

Juls,

Kmd4390, a cold starry night

VP Baltar (L-4) ~ Debonair Danny DiPietro, Locke Lamora,

a cold starry night,

Cobalt
Kmd4390 (L-5) ~ Goatrevolt, DTMaster
Juls (L-6) ~ Sotty7

Not Voting:

fuzzylightning, Juls

--With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
--Deadline is Saturday, October 17 2009.

(8 days left)

---Happy birthday, SensFan!

Post Count:

a cold starry night - 5
Cobalt - 15
Debonair Danny DiPietro - 2
DTMaster - 3
fuzzylightning - 4
Goatrevolt - 7
Juls - 3
Kmd4390 - 5
Locke Lamora - 1
SensFan - 12
Sotty7 - 1
VP Baltar - 5

[VP Baltar]

Cobalt's logic this whole game is horribad, but I don't think he is worth lynching over it because I think he is probably just a VI. Goatrevolt is correct that we should not be outguessing the mod, particularly this mod. In my original statement about Sens' information I said

if

its true then we should consider lynching Cobalt. We have no information to indicate that it is true other than Sens' word at this point, so I don't think it's worth getting up in arms over.

That being said, Cobalt's sensitivity to being voted should be noted, nor do I like his attempt to divert town away from any potential 3rd party by saying its no concern of town or the fact that he is spending a ton of posts to say essentially nothing. His defense is a bit much for the mild pressure that is on him, though I don't have any experience with him, so I can't say if this is coming from scum or town.

Right now I think I'm better served to

Unvote, Vote: a cold starry night

His contributions haven't been helpful at all and I think he is spurring on arguments rather than scumhunting. Notice how he has a low post cap and spends them on this:
"Oh ok"
"This is where I pat you on the head and watch you get lynched in a page or two."

wtf?

I agree with Sens that Cobalt's softclaims are complete BS, especially after he already said that he has a fakeclaim. I have no knowledge of the theme, so his claim means nothing. Also, if you were so powerful, why would you claim so readily? And if you have fakeclaims to protect how awesomely powerful you are, why not use one of those first? That doens't make sense to me.

[VP Baltar]

He attacked VP Baltar because VP Baltar wanted to lynch him because Baltar thought he was 3rd party despite that not being relevant to the town win condition.

I did? please quote. What actually happened is that you and cobalt took all kinds of inferences from one line where I said if Sens is telling the truth, Cobalt should probably be lynched and then extrapolated them into a grand theory about how I'm psychotically trying to get cobalt lynched. Your ridiculously over the top defense of Cobalt is starting to grate on me though.

Sens makes valid points about a Lyncher. Cobalt attempts to deflect these with outguess the mod "what if the lynchee is mafia". I'm sure Goat thinks this is a good argument.

Happy Birthday, Sens!

DDD is probably scum judging from his general lack of commenting on anything. I also dont' think I've ever seen him as town in the many games I have played with him.

Sotty and Locke need to contribute something useful or die.

I would also appreciate if people made better uses of their posts instead of getting into stupid "Nah uh" arguments.

This is my second post for the day, and I told myself I would try to not use any more than that in one day, so unless something urgent comes up, I am probably going to be done for the day and will address any questions to me tomorrow.