Open 173: Pie E7 Game over

[Scien]

/confirm

[Scien]

G uraju lgur rnf l pvcu re?

[Scien]

I agree, and set up the wagon, instead of tearing it down this time. Heh.

Vote: Hohum

[Scien]

[WIFOM]
Dramonic.
* You were the last by a long shot to confirm in thread. Almost half a day behind.
* Night 0 confirms were very quick and gave scum less time to talk.
* You were posing elsewhere on the site after everyone else had confirmed and was waiting on you. How hard is it to confirm?
* Your delay could be because of scum taking too long to talk in night 0.
[/WIFOM]

What say you?

[Scien]

Pretty mad for an Amish guy. Heh.

[Scien]

L-1? I don't think so. Why would you expect me to vote Dramonic?

[Scien]

I understand why pressuring him is a good idea. I understand why getting him to comment on it is a good idea. Hence questions.

I figured the people on him would do a decent enough job pressuring him, and I should go ahead and help wagon someone else. So I joined the other vote.

I figured it was a better use of my vote rather than putting someone at L-1 in what was pretty much a random stage.

As for do I think the scum would quick hammer? No I suppose not, well unless they have gonads and think that they could weather the storm it would have caused tomorrow.

[Scien]

Hey. Someone who is smarter than me. Times on PMs, those are when they were sent, not when they were received right?

---

[To Hohum] You should probably just stop posting. It is impeding the process of finding scum.

Oh? What do you think of his questioning? You are implying that he is not scum I believe otherwise you would want him to talk as much as possible. Adding that to the way you worded the above, I get the feeling you are sure that he is town. Scummy.

As for Charter vs Hohum, I skimmed and plan to reread before commenting. I really want my PM question answered, because I very much believe that we got our PMs after thread was created and Dramonic just LIED in thread.

[Scien]

There is almost no way in my mind that she would have sent half the roles, created the thread, then sent the other half.

I just tested the PM system to see if it was sent datetime, and not recieved datetime. It was sent datetime.

Dramonic. I am actively accusing you of lying here. You deliberately concocted a story to address what was pretty much a WIFOM comment that had little import.

Unvote

Vote: Dramonic

[Scien]

@Dramonic:

Surprisingly, what happened is quite the opposite. I was online when Mitey sent the PMs,

so when I went to the topic it wasn't existent yet

, else I'd have been first to confirm. I went to post on my other games since this one wasn't there yet and I just forgot.

The bold is interesting to me. Its awkward wording, yes. And that might mean you refactored it. But you slipped in the final wording and said you went to

the topic

. How can you go to the topic when it doesn't exist?

I propose that you got your PM, came to the thread to 'watch this topic', then withheld your confirm while you played in your other game and finalized scum talk with your partner. I am pretty sure this is what has went down, and I am very confident in my vote.

Lynch all liars. Die scum die.

Moer Dramonic lynching plox.

[Scien]

Charter. Why the inconsistency between these two points.

L-1? I don't think so. Why would you expect me to vote Dramonic?

Cause bandwagons are awesome. The bigger the better. [...]
[Hohum votes]
If dramonic is not scum, then I don't want a quickhammer. Scum quickhammering on a townie is such a great strategy in this setup.

That being said, I do find dramonic suspicious (hasn't said anything yet this game), but enough for a lynch on page two? Please.
[...]
I also find hohum suspicious for putting dramonic in a position of great vulnerability so soon.

So let me get this straight. No one put him at L-1. You criticize everyone for it. Someone does, they are villianized. You are expecting to find ghosts on both sides of the argument? That's strange.

Wait a few pages and lets lynch him.

Why the holy hell are you not voting at this point. Explain to me your reasons.

---

[Scien still wants Dramonic dead.]

[Scien]

I did not criticize or pressure anyone in to putting dramonic at L-1

I guess that's fair... I was mentally combining a post of VPs with yours erroneously, and it made you sound highly critical of me not putting Dramonic at L-1.

Since that other post was not yours, I think your 'just seeing what others say' checks out.

IGMEOY for no need to wagon a person that I think is scum comment. I understand that you want to find partners, but scum hitting should be paramount, and a wagon on someone you are sure is scum could also aid in finding a partner.

[Scien]

What do you think of hohum's constant changing his reasons for voting me every time he finds out what he's trying to push is wrong?

Perfectly in line with his meta every time I have played with him as a townie. He pressures to pressure. He keeps pressure on when certain points are addressed by changing the argument. But he is always abrasive about it in order to get the other person emotionally involved. I see nothing different here.

Not to defend dramonic, but this seems like an idiotic argument to make. [1]Clearly what his explanation indicates is he went looking for the topic and claimed it wasn't there.

[2] I can understand if you make the argument that he intentionally avoided a topic that was there, [3] but trying to claim he made a logic error in saying he went to a topic that wasn't there seems like semantics mudslinging over something that is clearly impossible.

[4] Also, do you feel that we should lynch dramonic over his "lie" right now on page 3?

Good I wanted a fight!
[1] I know this is what he is claiming. I think his mistaken wording invalidates that claim.

[2] Heh, so you half agree with what I am saying so far? That's strange. Yes I am saying he avoided the topic, he couldn't confirm until scum talk was over. We were too quick for the scum to talk it out, one of them had to confirm late, or they didn't finish talking.

[3] No. We have already proven that the topic was there. He either saw it or didn't. My argument is that he saw it, and since he saw it he lied in thread about seeing it, and had to have had a motive for not confirming when he saw it.

Due to his wording in that phrase that looks like he had trouble with, it suggests that he did know the thread existed. "so when I went to the topic it wasn't existent yet". He starts that thought with "so when I went to the topic", which joins to what he wanted to say "it wasn't existent yet". I claim there is no way to have the thought 'I went to the topic" if the topic didn't exist. Yes I know its just bulky wording, but it points at his thoughts.

[4] Yes. I can already see where you are going with this. Discussion is good, but hitting scum is paramount.

Besides the Dramonic wagon itself can help with information gathering as well, if handled correctly.

[Scien]

I'll address some things you said in a moment Scien, but first I would like you to actually answer my question.

Eh... I guess I'll answer by quote then since you couldn't see it the first time.

[4] Yes

[Scien]

So you're planning to lynch me over erroneous syntax?

You know how ridiculous that reason is right? <_<

Nope. I am planning on lynching due to the syntax showing that you lied in thread. There is a reason why that syntax is messed up. Your thoughts messed them up. Your thoughts show that you were aware of the thread.

[Scien]

Oops, guess I scanned over that when I was reading, Scien.

Ah. No problem then, sorry if I sounded short.

Anyhow, I'm sure you can see that I disagree with your point that it would give us information to lynch him (or anyone) this early in the game.

I see that you disagree. I understand why. I still hold that he should be our lynch today, and I believe our wagon could be a source for more information.

What information do you think we'd have if we lynched him now and he flipped scum?

What information do you think we'd have if we lynched him now and he flipped town?

This might get a bit WIFOM and I apologize.

When he flips scum, we don't mislynch today. We enter tomorrow with 4 townies, at least one and possibly two night actions, and one scum, still plunty of chances at mislynching. We have play from almost everyone except Kitty from today, as well as a majority of people suspicions today to look at.

If he doesn't flip scum. He was just not careful about the way he worded things, and didn't lie. Chances are in that case, I get left alive at night to catch flack tomorrow, which I will. We would be down two townies. We still have a good deal to look at from today's actions, and the night kill and lynch could be examined.

What the hell is strange about that?

I think its strange that the part that you claim you understand is the part where I believe he 'intentionally avoided the thread'. If you believe that, then by corollary he directly lied in thread. There is only one reason to lie in this game, to hide information. But I am the more interesting one to look at? That's strange.

What is your experience with scumchat before games?

Direct experience? I have been scum twice but only once as the game started. In that time it took longer than the pretty much 1 hour we gave them here (minus Kitty's confirm time). Actually in mine, I think it would have been more accurate to say that 1 hour was about how long it would take to get a single response. Not enough time to exchange strategy.

As for my strategy around confirms. I was always concerned with confirm time. I directly came in to confirm early, but told my partner to wait a bit in the until he confirmed so we could talk. Our talk was over after around 12 hours, but the game was large enough that would have confirmed in plenty of time anyway probably before two townies. (he actually confirmed before we were done talking, but we had plenty of time to talk). In general, I would say my scum conversations had around an hour to half an hour statement to response turn around time any given night, including night 0.

Difference? Hours there to an hour here. This game gave exactly an hour. The scum would have had to be very active to communicate in that time frame.

[Scien]

Dramonic. You are far too unsuspicious at the moment. If you are town, then you have a player directly manipulating your words.

You barely call me out on it, and are still withholding a vote. Why? Is there a reason why you are willing to cut me some slack? Is there a better target for your vote?

You are not defending yourself, you are staying quiet while others do it for you. I want to hear from you. I am sure you are scum. Talk now or die. Show the town what I already know.

[Scien]

No. Sorry, you are trying it again.

I said I can understand the first part. Definitely. I voted him based on that being a possibility. However, the semantics argument you are making that he "lied" about it does not necessarily follow for me.

Sigh. He got his PM, went to check for the thread.

Didn't find it even though it would have been one of the top of the list

. Confirmed late. Didn't call me out on WIFOM at the time, which is typically the defense against late confirms. Instead justified his claim saying roles were sent before thread when it wasn't the case. Even without his syntax (I won't call it semantics, because it is obvious there are two thoughts in that phrase) issue, this looks bad.

The syntax issue just helps seal the deal in my mind that he did see the thread at that time. You don't have to believe that part.

Also, where did I say anything about you being "the more interesting one to look at"?

You have no questions until your last post to anyone but me. That is how you've said it.

Dramonic needs to get in here and answer your questions.

Also, DRAMONIC, WHO DO YOU FIND SCUMMY AND WHY?

Fair, mainly because I was going to triple post to ask both you and Dramonic who your top two list was and why. Can I get your top 2 and why?

---

@Amished, I remember you being more aggressive, and totally catching scum tells like no ones business. Where are you?

Also, I know its early but,

Mod, as soon as she passes the minimum time for prodding... please prod Kitty.

[Scien]

Sigh. Ignore the first line.

I am willing to concede that the syntax may not be cut in dry. I am going to hold it means something, but I am not going to force you to.

If you don't agree with it, then yes, I can see why you wouldn't think that he necessarily lied. And I take back that you should (which was implied by that first line).

I wish I would have Dramonic would have hit me with responses before I conceded... but meh.

[Scien]

[1] I also think that Scien is pushing a terrible case on me and thinks he has some great skills in psychology. Alas he does not.

Charter I'm not sure, because in the last game I played with him he was just as mental

I am going to so laugh at the town when you flip scum. I've conceded your 'I went to the thread' slip as weak. Your late confirm by way of 'mistake' of not seeing the thread when it was created at at the top of the list are facts, not terrible, not psychology, and not weak. Your psychology claim is BS.

When you catch up give me your top two list, scum.

[Scien]

I'm going to come back to Dramonic, but I want to take a quick look at Charter.

Lets start with:

I'll just answer for him, since he's probably going to spew some more BS. None of his reasons are valid.

Heh. You don't want him to speak for himself? You are either emotional or scared. Let's see which.

Unvote
Vote: Charter

You should probably just stop posting. It is impeding the process of finding scum.

This post makes no sense. I've asked you about it before but I think it slipped through the cracks. If you think the dude is scum, you should want him talking as much as possible. Even if you think its a distraction, using his attack patterns, and votes, it may nod to his partner. Not to mention give you more ammo against him, if you are so certain. Wanting him to not talk, policy ignoring him, and answering for him, are ALL questionable plays. Weaksauce man.

I'm not reading your posts very carefully, that's for sure.

ohrly?

There's no need to wagon hohum, he's already outed himself as scum.

ohrly? What about the reason of finding his partner?

Didn't you hear? That makes me scum!

Way to trump up the emotion card as opposed to waiting for a decent answer.

[Scien]

[...]I'd prefer if hohum just stops posting entirely[...]

Again. That makes no sense if you think him scum. You would get scum info off of him in every breath. Expressing desire to not have him talk makes no sense.

Finding hohum's partner will be easy. Lynch scum day one and powerroles win the game. When his eventual lynch comes 'round, his buddy will probably try and save him.

Oh how awfully convenient. We just have to lynch Hohum slowly and between a partner attempting to save him, and power roles we win? Why are we waiting a few pages? Where the heck is your vote, if you think that the additional pressure will cause someone to defend him. You make no sense with this point.

Double vote: Charter

So why are you voting me?

Oh I don't know... let me go check if I listed points out to you. Ah, yep. Check out post 138. There are points in there.

[Scien]

No, there were a bunch of rhetorical questions in 138. You just repeat 'doesn't want hohum running his mouth' like three times.

There is a lot more to finding scum than listening to the spam of someone.

This irritates me. But that's okay I guess, you are not here to make me happy.

Let's try this again...

I'll just answer for him, since he's probably going to spew some more BS. None of his reasons are valid.

You don't want him to speak for himself? You are either emotional or scared. Let's see which.

What do you gain from not letting him speak. What do you gain from pushing that a certain person's voice is completely useless? Why do you think it would be better for him to sit in the corner and lurk rather than continue pushing a weak case if you truly believe him scum? Would not his over zealousness in pushing a weak case hasten his demise?

You should probably just stop posting. It is impeding the process of finding scum.

This post makes no sense. I've asked you about it before but I think it slipped through the cracks. If you think the dude is scum, you should want him talking as much as possible. Even if you think its a distraction, using his attack patterns, and votes, it may nod to his partner. Not to mention give you more ammo against him, if you are so certain. Wanting him to not talk, policy ignoring him, and answering for him, are ALL questionable plays. Weaksauce man.

Okay... lets try again. Do you think Hohum scum? Your vote is not placed so maybe not I guess... Why would you not like to hear more from him? Are you sure of his role one way or the other? I don't think you could be. Why shut him up if you don't know his role?

I'm not reading your posts very carefully, that's for sure.

ohrly

Why? Why does it aid the town to ignore any information? Why... as a townie... would you not be concerned, and examining anything someone was saying. Especially since that person was attacking you at the time, and you as a townie would have to determine if that was due to nefarious motives or not?

There's no need to wagon hohum, he's already outed himself as scum.

What about the reason of finding his partner?

Ah I see... so you think him scum. And yet are not examining his attacks and voting patterns? How exactly are you planning on finding his partner? You haven't been questioning anyone else in the mean time... You are waiting for him to point to his partner? Even though I make this sound negative... its really not. If you pressure him he might inadvertently point to his partner through actions.

What do you gain from "looking for a partner" without voting Hohum? Where are you currently looking for his partner? Why would your vote not aid you?

I'd prefer if hohum just stops posting entirely

How does that help town?

Finding hohum's partner will be easy. Lynch scum day one and powerroles win the game. When his eventual lynch comes 'round, his buddy will probably try and save him.

Then why the hell are you not voting for someone you believe scum?! This is not rhetorical...

There is a lot more to finding scum than listening to the spam of someone.

I don't agree... but fair I guess. Where are you scum hunting at the moment? How do you plan on finding scum?

Charter: How sure are you that Hohum is scum?

Yes please.

Scien: What information would we get from lynching Dramonic, assuming he came up town?

He won't. But I will play your game. If he was town, you would have my push on him. That could be read as townie or scummy. I think it would eventually be read as townie because it would be risky for a scum to out themselves like that... but that is WIFOM.

You would have his wagon to look at. You would have the people outside the wagon to look at. The reasons each side gives could help.

You would have a scum night kill to examine. That might point somewhere to investigate.

I know that I would catch flack if he flips town. The scum will keep me alive for that reason. I am confident I could weather town retribution for it though, and we could continue with examine the other information we had.

[On Hohum being scum] It's kind of funny, not very sure at all.

There's no need to wagon hohum, he's already outed himself as scum.

I understand there is some benefit in laying extra pressure with overly zealous claims. But as much as you want someone that you "are not sure about" to shut up, how do you expect to make up your mind on him?

wow, everyone just... vanished and stuff.

Welcome to weekends

---

Everywhere you see this symbol: '?' the phrase before it is a point I would like the parties to comment on. This is mainly directed at you Charter.

[Scien]

I'll go ahead and post as I catch up:

I am ~50% sure it is Balter and Amished. Scien is just totally lost.

First. You have posted before that you are sure Hohum is scum, and you were just looking elsewhere to find a partner. Second. Hohum's not even a real suspect of yours? Third. How am I lost. I am asking questions in your general direction, and I am presented with avoidance. If you are town, wouldn't you typically answer were you could? Even though you decided to answer some of my concerns this time around, you conveniently avoided a few points of mine, and left them unanswered. What do you expect me to make of that?

Dramonic is obviously town.

Why?

This being said, we need more posts from both Amished and Kittymo.

LOL. I actually agree there, although it doesn't lessen my suspicions of you.

[On wanting Hohum to not talk in thread] I gain much enjoyability from the game. I do not value his opinions, and hence I lose nothing.

The town is more than just you. So, you don't like talking to Hohum, that's fair. But how do you think a silent player would help the town? Don't you need to gather all the information that you can get?

I don't really care to hear more from him. Not sure of his role. If he keeps posting like that, and is town, he is creating a giant wall of idiocy for scum to hide behind. He will mislynch himself. If he just stops posting, it becomes more difficult for him to do that, while at the same time, everyone else is free to hunt scum.

Woah... that almost makes sense, and is actually one of the first logical attempts you have made so far (not criticizing, I'm actually impressed). So. You are not sure of him. How do you plan to become more sure of him? Especially when you want to do so while not talking to him?

Once I just ignore his terrible posts, and focus on the rest of the game, scumhunting actually became much easier.

Well unless, of course, he is scum. In that case you are just actively ignoring a scummy player so that you won't comment on how he is scummy to the town.

you're manufacturing suspicion. Big no-no for a town-aligned player.

Something you do in every game I have played with you so far... just so you know.

Mitey. That vote count is wrong. Sorry. At the very least I am voting Charter.

Fixed...thanks Scien

@Scien: You look like you're trying to hop on small semantic/syntax problems to lynch somebody, instead of looking more towards motivations. This ties directly into my acronym that I put towards Hohum where I put you and him as scumbuddies. You hopping on where hohum had voted does not help your case. Who else are you suspicious of now that I'm back and have been V/LA and notified the thread on my own and by the mod.

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. I have a suspicion that he lied in thread when he said that he got his PM before the thread was created. I think that he slipped when he said that he "went to the thread" and "the thread wasn't there" in the same sentence. I have CONCEDED the latter slip since it is impossible to prove. However the first claim still stands.

The thread was around before Dramonic 'checked'. This is a fact. Him not seeing was most likely convenient at the least, but possibly a mistake.

BUT THE THREAD DID EXIST WHEN HE CHECKED WITHOUT A DOUBT.

This has nothing to do with syntax, grammar, or even motivations as you say. It is however a mistake at the least and a lie at the worst, and DOES DESERVE PRESSURE AND SCRUTINY.

[On Hohum's scum partner] Scien. He seems to think hohum is making sense.

Way to reverse again. Not sure that Hohum is scum? Think that it is Amished and Balter? Oh, you said that Amished being V/LA changed things? Did it change things enough for you to go back to someone else scum? Fickle much?

Besides all that I am going to level with the town straight here. I am trying something completely different here. I have not played a game yet with Hohum were he wasn't town, and didn't play like this. In our past games, I fought him long and hard about his play style, his methods of pressuring, his weak claims, and strong attacks. In the end that didn't serve the town well to attack him for that due to him eventually getting lynched for it while he was town. In this game I am actively doing the opposite. I am trying to aid in the pressure he is generating. Even while keeping a close eye on him.

Don't get me wrong, I still am looking at him. But what he is bringing up is no more or less weak than when I have seen him as town before. I am very content at the moment to be looking at people that I have questions about out side of any play Hohum is making at the moment.

Just figured I would throw that out there.

Back to me:
I am suspicious of Dramonic: I think he actively lied in thread, and I want to lynch him on this alone. Townies have no reason to lie. This has nothing to do with syntax. This has nothing to do with psychology. This is purely due to him "not finding the thread" after he got his PM, when the freggin thread would have been in the top 5 most recent threads at least, if he was as quick at checking as he suggested. The syntax thing just drives it home to me, even if it is weak enough that I can't use it to build my case to you.

I am suspicious of Charter: He has avoided some of my questions, even if in the same breath he answered others. He suspects Hohum, then he doesn't, then he does but won't vote, then he doesn't, then he does again. Sounds like a freggin flag in the wind.

That's all for now. I don't want to be a Mastin.

[Scien]

Oh and what is Rotm?

[Scien]

A) you're convinced I'm scum (I'm not by the way)

Nope. I am sure Dramonic is scum. I am examining you. There is a difference. True or false, you think anyone questioning you thinks you scum or is scum? [not rhetorical]

B) you're ignoring everything in the game other than really blatent things you can pick out in the thread, that really have nothing to do with anything

I am ignoring nothing. Where am I ignoring things? [not rhetorical]

Why are the things I am looking at meaningless? [not rhetorical]

C) obsessing on things like 'charter ignores hohum's posts'.

Wrong again. Up till recently you two have focused on each other. I care not about that. However I do care about your apparent desire to ignore information. Be it certain questions I ask of you, Hohum's points or whatever. I don't care if you ignored everyone in the game, I would call you out for it. It doesn't matter that your main target for ignoring at the moment is Hohum.

Obsessing over it? Questioning it and trying to understand why you think its a pro-town move would be more accurate. If you didn't understand something in someone's play would you A) Give up and shut up. B) Question and pressure until you understand. [not rhetorical]

Dramonic is really easy to tell if he's town or scum.

First why do you think that he is easy to read. Second, you don't think he could learn from his previous mistakes and improve?

I already said, he isn't mislynching himself if he's town.

I have already said this, and tried to question you on it in different words, but apparently I am not getting through to you. You claim to not know his role. If he doesn't talk you will never find his role out. You as a townie should not be comfortable with this, especially since you seem to have so much grief with him. You suggesting otherwise A) suggests you KNOW he is protown, or B) you don't need to hunt. Neither of those suggest you have a pro-town role.

If you don't know his role, which you say you don't, then you will never find out if he shuts up. Scaring the town with 'well if he happens to be town he is going to mislynch himself by pissing us off' is fear mongering.

No, getting people to spam the thread isn't an effective way of finding scum

In your opinion what if a scum is the one doing the spamming? If a scum is giving you information like a fire hose, how does it hurt town?

Look at his votes.

Good answer. Although, I have mentioned this in thread before. Where have you mentioned voting patterns in thread? I specifically remember back around a day ago when you were sure that Hohum was scum, and was withholding a vote because you wanted to look for his partner. Why were you not mentioning voting patterns there?

You're inventing these contradictions.

I disagree. LOL I guess I am taking a page out of your book, and not elaborating too much here until you ask a more pointed question.

Why on earth would you encourage this type of play?

How am I encouraging it? I am using it. Those are not the same thing.

Instead of bickering with him, I'm ignoring him.

Why on earth would you suggest this type of play?

That's what I'm trying to avoid if he's town since there's little margin for error. Why are you criticizing me for trying to avoid this by ignoring his posts?

Because you are picking one of two possibilities which you yourself say you are not sure of which is the case in this game. Yes. What you say makes sense if he is town. But, you don't know if he is town. He could be scum. If he is scum, you suggesting he doesn't talk, and you ignoring info he gives the town is the EXACT OPPOSITE of townieness.

Why does this make him scum?

As I have said before, townies would have NO REASON to lie in thread. Therefore liars are scum.

If I miss a question, point it out and I'll answer it.

Sigh, fair. I'll go back through soon and catch the stuff I want you to answer by quoting it back to you.

[Scien]

A) you're convinced I'm scum (I'm not by the way)

Nope. I am sure Dramonic is scum. I am examining you. There is a difference. True or false, you think anyone questioning you thinks you scum or is scum? [not rhetorical]

B) you're ignoring everything in the game other than really blatent things you can pick out in the thread, that really have nothing to do with anything

I am ignoring nothing. Where am I ignoring things? [not rhetorical]

Why are the things I am looking at meaningless? [not rhetorical]

C) obsessing on things like 'charter ignores hohum's posts'.

Wrong again. Up till recently you two have focused on each other. I care not about that. However I do care about your apparent desire to ignore information. Be it certain questions I ask of you, Hohum's points or whatever. I don't care if you ignored everyone in the game, I would call you out for it. It doesn't matter that your main target for ignoring at the moment is Hohum.

Obsessing over it? Questioning it and trying to understand why you think its a pro-town move would be more accurate. If you didn't understand something in someone's play would you A) Give up and shut up. B) Question and pressure until you understand. [not rhetorical]

Dramonic is really easy to tell if he's town or scum.

First why do you think that he is easy to read. Second, you don't think he could learn from his previous mistakes and improve?

I already said, he isn't mislynching himself if he's town.

I have already said this, and tried to question you on it in different words, but apparently I am not getting through to you. You claim to not know his role. If he doesn't talk you will never find his role out. You as a townie should not be comfortable with this, especially since you seem to have so much grief with him. You suggesting otherwise A) suggests you KNOW he is protown, or B) you don't need to hunt. Neither of those suggest you have a pro-town role.

If you don't know his role, which you say you don't, then you will never find out if he shuts up. Scaring the town with 'well if he happens to be town he is going to mislynch himself by pissing us off' is fear mongering.

No, getting people to spam the thread isn't an effective way of finding scum

In your opinion what if a scum is the one doing the spamming? If a scum is giving you information like a fire hose, how does it hurt town?

Look at his votes.

Good answer. Although, I have mentioned this in thread before. Where have you mentioned voting patterns in thread? I specifically remember back around a day ago when you were sure that Hohum was scum, and was withholding a vote because you wanted to look for his partner. Why were you not mentioning voting patterns there?

You're inventing these contradictions.

I disagree. LOL I guess I am taking a page out of your book, and not elaborating too much here until you ask a more pointed question.

Why on earth would you encourage this type of play?

How am I encouraging it? I am using it. Those are not the same thing.

Instead of bickering with him, I'm ignoring him.

Why on earth would you suggest this type of play?

That's what I'm trying to avoid if he's town since there's little margin for error. Why are you criticizing me for trying to avoid this by ignoring his posts?

Because you are picking one of two possibilities which you yourself say you are not sure of which is the case in this game. Yes. What you say makes sense if he is town. But, you don't know if he is town. He could be scum. If he is scum, you suggesting he doesn't talk, and you ignoring info he gives the town is the EXACT OPPOSITE of townieness.

Why does this make him scum?

As I have said before, townies would have NO REASON to lie in thread. Therefore liars are scum.

If I miss a question, point it out and I'll answer it.

Sigh, fair. I'll go back through soon and catch the stuff I want you to answer by quoting it back to you.

[Scien]

You know, instead of latching onto a single mistake I did you ought to try to broaden your view. You've yet to comment on Kitty Amished and VP.

Except I don't think it was a mistake. I think it was a lie. And a lie deserves a policy lynch.

Why would scum make so obvious of a lie and get caught through out of thread things?

See. This is a good question. Let me ask another to start off. Hypothetical, you are the last to confirm, and someone comes out and attacks you for it. Would you say a typical response was that would to just comment on that being WIFOM and a null tell, or would you try to provide an excuse? The fact that he came up with an excuse is strange to me alone. (Why take the safe path that should anger no one, when in fact you should be suspicious of me tossing out WIFOM arguments against you)

Now to actually answer your question. I don't think it was as obvious at the time. If I was scum in that situation and felt I needed to provide an excuse, I think I would have picked something along those lines. It would be easy for me to A) forget that everything is freggin timestamped B) forget that even though I thought it was an entirely unprovable account of my personal issues outside of thread, it could actually hurt me.

By combining those two, I think it was a post that started out as just a quick way to drop suspicion (even if just WIFOM) while providing safety in the fact that your claim could not be counter attacked. It wasn't until we looked at timestamps did the lie come out.

Meh. I guess its a long way of saying it, but it doesn't seem like it was obvious. Its obvious now, but not when the statement was made.

[Scien]

Why are you voting for me then?

I am examining you.

Pressure helps examination.

[1] You haven't said anything about Kittymo or Amished. Why aren't you questioning them and giving them a reason to post? Doesn't seem like an effective way of getting as much info as you can, [2] though when hohum posts useless posts, you criticize me for ignoring them. But you're ignoring two players! This is just the easy answer for me to give (still true though), by missing things, [3] I meant stuff like Balter hiding behind me when questioning hohum. I see he's also hidden behind you as well, looks like you missed that too. [4] You know, ACTUALLY scummy things.

[1] Kittymo has made three posts. There is nothing to question. And the entire town is concerned. I may not have specifically said so, but I am included in that. But what can I question about? The only thing I could really do is say "OMG yous lurkin". Hardly helpful to add that when others have commented on it already.

Amished just got back from V/LA and is starting to participate. When he says something I don't understand, I will totally question him on it. As it stands he has not done that.

[2] Again, I am ignoring no body. I am looking at all the play, and questioning where I feel appropriate. I am definitely not specifically posting in thread that I am not reading people very closely and considering policy ignoring a player. My play is not the same as your stated play.

[3] I don't understand what the part of the phrase before the [3] box meant, sorry. However the stuff after it might be a good point. Can you show me where he hid? You are right, I missed it.

[4] Policy ignoring, and suggesting someone's opinion is worthless is scummy. Other's lying in thread is scummy. You don't have to agree with me, and I don't have to convince of you of this. I will question those actions though.

[1] They really don't tell you if someone's posts are town motivated or scum motivated. Like now, for instance, I'd be giving all the same answers regardless of alignment, asking 20 questions isn't as useful as one really good question.

I think they do because I don't see the town motivation. Since I don't see it, I assume scum motivation. My questions are designed to see if that read is right. If you answer in a way that makes me see the townie side of it, then I would have to drop my suspicion because you are right... the question doesn't help me anymore.

Just because you can equivocate my questions doesn't mean I see both sides of the argument. The only reason I am asking 20 times is I still don't understand how your play is townie, and the answers I am getting still don't make sense at best, or our completely non-helpful in clearing my suspicion at worst.

Ok, I think I've found the root of this disagreement. Information is not the same as MOAR WORDS PLZ. Typing as much as you can is not information and is bad for finding scum. Doesn't matter who is typing a lot.

That is not what I said and I believe you know it. I didn't say spamming was good. I was saying that ignoring someone that you are not sure about it is questionable. If you are not sure about them, you should still be trying to figure them out. Even if they are spamming, I think you would try to find meaning in it. Ignoring someone you are still suspicious of is RIDICULOUS.

You have much to learn.

True, although not helpful in this context. Townies don't need to lie. Townies don't need to protect information (unless it is power role based). The thing I am claiming is a lie was not around power roles, hence it was a untownie lie. Lynch all Liars. Smarter people than myself agree with that policy.

[Scien]

[... No] scum would be dumb enough to use the other answer as the other one would be "right" 100% of the time and would make them appear insanely townie (which is the point of being mafia).

When the comment I am 'harping on' was made, it was the 100% right play to make if you wanted to avoid suspicion (until it was botched by something that could actually be proven in thread).

It shouldn't have made me suspicious as it was relating to things outside of thread that should have had no bearing in this game and made no counter attack to me. The other way to play was to comment that I was making WIFOM arguments which is weak and deserved scrutiny, which would have flavored me against Dramonic.

Lets assume he was townie for a moment. I just attacked him with a weak WIFOM argument, and did actually suggest that I was suspicious because of it. Since he dones't know my role, he would need to question that play to determine if it was weak townie play or weak scum play. It would have been the 100% right play for a townie to make in that case. Making an excuse on the other hand does not help town at all besides clearing pressure on him (a townie) which was weak pressure to begin with.

You are right. This is looking at it from a perfect world perspective. If he was playing suboptimally it would throw this off. But I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt and say he is a decent player and would have played it differently as town.

[Scien]

I'm around... just got back from a trip to my college town for a home game. It was on Thursday, so I took Friday off and didn't get anywhere near a computer until just now.

I'll catchup tomorrow, and start posting again. I'm not in the best of moods right now... my car is slowly biting the dust, and has developed a new symptom.

[Scien]

Hohum if that is because you think I was just trying to buddy you as scum you should remove that. I was looking at you for exactly the same reason... one of us should be dead. Why Amished? I don't know.

If you are scum than carry on.

---

When I am hammered you know that Hohum and me are town.

If I am not, that means me or Hohum are scum.

I haven't started catching up yet, but the flips looked, well not what I was expecting.

More later at least by day end.

[Scien]

Woah... no.

That's a lie. No quick lynches while we examine please. I'm not even sure the cop should counter claim until I think a bit more.

[Scien]

Vote:Hohum

It would be too risky for me to counter claim as a cop here, to try and draw a night kill from scum, and allow our cop to live. The scum could just re-claim cop tomorrow anyway. Dang it.

Roleclaim: Vanilia Townie.

The cop should think carefully if he should out himself today depending on his investigation. But in the very least you know one person here is lying.

If you have a guilty on a second then there we go we win. I am assuming that Hohum and scum team is fairly confident that either Hohum drew the investigation, and are using him to out you, or have role blocked you.

Since they are involving me in this, I can't determine if they were expecting me to claim cop as well or not. I can only assume that means they did not roleblock me, in hopes that if I was cop, the counter claim would seem petty, and weak. That path is not the case however.

[Scien]

You can breadcrumb as scum. Don't be fooled.

[Scien]

You also NKed the one of the people that called you out on your coded WIFOM.

To the whole town pre-game codes:

Hohum: V nz gur pbc
Simple shift cipher for "I am the cop"

Scien: G uraju lgur rnf l pvcu re?
Simple shift cipher for "Then why a simple cipher?" or something similar.
(I played with spaces)

That proves I caught the crumbs and doubted. So did Amished. One of us ended up dead, the other the immediate target in day 2. One of us already flipped pro-town. (And yes I know that my suspicion doesn't prove innocence. But it could suggest why he is attacking those two people)

[Scien]

We're in lylo, so unless I hear a counterclaim you are caught scum

There's your partner. He doesn't care about our cop. He demands he out himself instead.

[Scien]

We won't, he will aid my case without a claim, and will not allow the lynch without a claim.

Why do you want to force him to claim without knowing what kind of investigation he may or may not have gotten last night? Why hand him to the scum on a silver platter.

[Scien]

Unless you have the win condition Cop. If you have a guilty on someone other than Hohum, you know that your investigation and Hohum are the scum team and we got the win.

If you have an innocent on anyone other than me, that would help as well, as your cop claim would damn Hohum, and set up tomorrow, but would be less ideal because tonight they might let you live, with hopes that the town would see it as a set up. You would have to decide if you wanted to claim there.

If you are blocked, then meh. Might as well just keep the town from losing without revealing yourself, unless you must.

[Scien]

BTW Hohum is most likely the one claiming because he is the vanilla scum. Just saying. So we can count on the block tonight too if we claim, and he is not nked.

[Scien]

Red. Reliable Excavation and Demolition.

[Scien]

You couldn't be sure. That's the correct answer from a townie point of view.

But our win is not just in today. Its in tomorrow as well. Getting a cop there might help more than having him save me here.

This is something we should talk about. Not blanket ask for the cop to claim. Only the cop knows for sure just how valuable his claim would be at this point in time.

[Scien]

Papa Z and Dramonic, lets talk cop claim. If there is another cop, should they claim at this point?

[Scien]

cop claim... if there is another cop claim, before Hohum jumps me.

[Scien]

1) no one else has your role information but you, and 2) we absolutely have to lynch scum today.

1) I told everyone mine. It was unfortunate, but I believe I kinda had to. I would have liked to claim cop, but I think that would have went over like a lead balloon.

2) I understand. But we need three townies to hit scum, unless one helps. One is me. One is the cop. Those two will make it very hard for there to be a lynch of me. Depending on how we play it, the cop might not have to claim. IN ANY CASE HE SHOULD IF I AM GOING TO BITE IT. You are right we can't hit a townie.

[Scien]

Ok. There we go. Everyone has commented in thread. And no one claimed.

What do you think about the current situation PapaZ.

[Scien]

GG...

[Scien]

Apparently that Dramonic thing was just a mistake... silly me.

Gut was right begin day 2 I guess though... sigh.

[Scien]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[Scien]

wait...
wait...
Hohum is town?

[Scien]

Holy crap... He gambled...

Sigh... damn it. I can't really fault him for that I suppose... but damn it.

[Scien]

I will actually grow some confidence here and say if you think no one but Amished had a brain than you are clearly lacking in sight, and you got very lucky here that Hohum's gamble didn't pay off.

I had you dead to rights, and it doesn't matter if it was a mistake or not.

There were a few good players here. Just because you are critical of them means nothing.

[Scien]

lol, I thought you knew when I hammered you Scien.

I definitely thought Hohum was lying. Never thought he would false result claim. I pinned it on Hohum and you with Dramonic town at first... then when he claimed town, thought you got fooled into hammering.

No where along that path did I even consider someone Hohum as cop. How could I?

[Scien]

It was humour.

Oh... sorry then. I was getting all defensive lol.

[Scien]

then when he claimed

town

scum, thought you got fooled into hammering.

[Scien]

Scien: Your catch on Dram was better than I made it out to be, so I apologize for that; though you tunneled on charter way too much IMO. He was clearly right about the setup and to have a wrong conclusion be hammered at him so often and early on (and then lead to a case against him) would make anyone angry. I think that's where the charter suspicion started, and I could see that perfectly coming from a townie; so that's why nobody was going to convince me that charter was scum.

Meh, I couldn't prove Dramonic mistake very well though... otherwise I would have been very proud.

You are kind of right on Charter... trying the opposite of how I normally am. I have been criticized for being too not set on my reads. Trying a middle of the road approach between Scien and Hohum at the moment. Be stronger and sound more sure (I don't know if I subscribe to pissing everyone off that you can yet though heh.)

[Scien]

Was that directed at me? I wasn't mad at anyone.

[Scien]

Oh... I mean Hohum's tendency to piss everyone off to provoke misplays. I don't subscribe to that... my game here was to be more aggressive and to hold an image of myself that looked like I was more confident than I was... in order to scare scum.

[Scien]

Ask

less questions?

How exactly does that help? I think you really mean talk less and I don't agree that that is a good strategy.

[Scien]

Unnecessary is in the eye of the beholder.

Many times I repeat myself it is because my original concern is not addressed.

You guys can cry all you want, but quite frankly, if someone who gets himself lynched day one is going to give me advice on how I should play, I am going to ignore him.

I'm tired of beating myself up over everything, and I think I am going to stop.

I truly thank you for the advice. But know that I am going to be freaking wordy the next time you see me no matter how much you urge.

[Scien]

Oh. And thanks for modding Mitey. It was fun while it lasted lol.

That last day was strange, but I'm not going to criticize. Like I could anyway, heh.

Nice playing with ya all, and sorry if I was rubbing you the wrong way, just wasn't getting the information that I wanted.

Take it easy and hope to see you again.

[Scien]

You know what... I am willing to learn here.

I'm going to start with leveling with you. I was not sure that the mistake I caught from Dramonic was a total slip. I wanted to pressure him to make sure.

I stretched a bit with his slip. Most everyone called me out on that, and I eventually had to give it up.

I wanted him to sweat. I wanted him to possibly make another mistake while defending himself from my accusations.

Dramonic defended himself nicely, even to the point were it was tough for me to continue do to me second guessing myself.

---

I want to focus on what

I

did wrong. Why did my complaint not make others (besides Hohum I guess) look towards Dramonic? Why did you think it was weak? How could I make it stronger?

I've heard town cry that I just said the same thing over and over, but apparently in this case I could have done better in focusing the town towards a scum. Where did I fail?

If I asked less questions it wouldn't have helped. I am not going to lie, that suggestion makes no sense.

Put yourself in my shoes at that point in time. You have what you think is a player lying, and the town not listening.

What do you do in that case?

[Scien]

If that makes sense in my drunkeness... lol.

If not I can reword it tomorrow.

[Scien]

Oh and nice avatar Hohum.

[Scien]

That being said, you saying you figured out the cipher on Day 1 gives me pause because if that were the case I would think that you would have blocked hohum last night.

*cry*