Open 173: Pie E7 Game over

[VP Baltar]

/confirm

wasn't expecting this game to start so quickly, but let's do this.

[VP Baltar]

Vote dramonic

I agree.

[VP Baltar]

I did charter.

[VP Baltar]

you listed the reasons why voting dramonic is a good idea earlier Scien, so clearly you understand why voting him is a good idea. Why not put pressure on him? Also, even if you put him at L-1, do you really think the scum is going to quick hammer him?

[VP Baltar]

Scum quickhammering on a townie is such a great strategy in this setup.

Expound on this please.

Also, KittyMo needs to post.

[VP Baltar]

VP I think dislikes me, so maybe he's added pure hatred to his vote

Nah. There aren't many people I hate. Just a good old bandwagon to judge your reaction.

Unvote, Vote: KittyMo

Post or die.

[VP Baltar]

I'm more interested in why hohum was so diehard on the two mislynch thing when it was obviously not the case.

[VP Baltar]

The bold is interesting to me. Its awkward wording, yes. And that might mean you refactored it. But you slipped in the final wording and said you went to the topic. How can you go to the topic when it doesn't exist?

Not to defend dramonic, but this seems like an idiotic argument to make. Clearly what his explanation indicates is he went looking for the topic and claimed it wasn't there.

I can understand if you make the argument that he intentionally avoided a topic that was there, but trying to claim he made a logic error in saying he went to a topic that wasn't there seems like semantics mudslinging over something that is clearly impossible.

Also, do you feel that we should lynch dramonic over his "lie" right now on page 3?

[VP Baltar]

EBWOP: page 5...brain fart.

[VP Baltar]

I'll address some things you said in a moment Scien, but first I would like you to actually answer my question.

do you feel that we should lynch dramonic over his "lie" right now on page

3

5?

[VP Baltar]

I'm more interested in why hohum was so diehard on the two mislynch thing when it was obviously not the case.

mistake

I realize you made a mistake, but what I don't understand is why you wouldn't just admit that. Even after you were pushed to finally having no other argument to make you still wouldn't simply say "oops, I figured it wrong", you placed in the addendum 'well, this isn't even figuring in the powerroles'...as if to say the town could still perhaps bank on two mislynches.

[VP Baltar]

What do you think of Scien's argument for a dramonic lynch?

[VP Baltar]

Oops, guess I scanned over that when I was reading, Scien.

Anyhow, I'm sure you can see that I disagree with your point that it would give us information to lynch him (or anyone) this early in the game.

What information do you think we'd have if we lynched him now and he flipped scum?

What information do you think we'd have if we lynched him now and he flipped town?

Also, what do you mean by this:

so you half agree with what I am saying so far? That's strange.

What the hell is strange about that?

and

What is your experience with scumchat before games?

[VP Baltar]

When he flips scum, we don't mislynch today. We enter tomorrow with 4 townies, at least one and possibly two night actions, and one scum, still plunty of chances at mislynching. We have play from almost everyone except Kitty from today, as well as a majority of people suspicions today to look at.

Well, the problem is that we only have one mislynch and it'd be lylo. Obviously the optimal outcome of Day1 is to lynch scum, but that remains the same if we do it on page 5 or if we go to deadline.

Which leads me to....

If he doesn't flip scum. He was just not careful about the way he worded things, and didn't lie. Chances are in that case, I get left alive at night to catch flack tomorrow, which I will. We would be down two townies. We still have a good deal to look at from today's actions, and the night kill and lynch could be examined.

I don't think there'd be a "good deal" of information to go on tomorrow. Personally, I don't have solid reads on anybody yet and cutting the day short on the belief that dramonic "lied" is in no way going to help that.

I think its strange that the part that you claim you understand is the part where I believe he 'intentionally avoided the thread'. If you believe that, then by corollary he directly lied in thread. There is only one reason to lie in this game, to hide information. But I am the more interesting one to look at? That's strange.

I said I can understand the first part. Definitely. I voted him based on that being a possibility. However, the semantics argument you are making that he "lied" about it does not necessarily follow for me. Hell, he could be scum that really did miss the thread for all we know. You're welcome to believe that he lied about it, but I personally don't think something that is as WIFOMy as that is worth speedlynching over.

Also, where did I say anything about you being "the more interesting one to look at"?


That being said, I'm not into defending players I have no real read on, so I think that's about as far as I'd like to take our little debate on this right now. Dramonic needs to get in here and answer your questions.

Also, DRAMONIC, WHO DO YOU FIND SCUMMY AND WHY?

[VP Baltar]

You have no questions until your last post to anyone but me. That is how you've said it.

Except I did ask hohum questions.

Fair, mainly because I was going to triple post to ask both you and Dramonic who your top two list was and why. Can I get your top 2 and why?

Hohum because of his argument over the mislynches, and dramonic because he has yet to do any scumhunting though he has posted. KittyMo's lurking is inexcusable, though she may not have even seen the thread since her confirm.

[VP Baltar]

Further, I've listed about half a dozen other reasons to vote charter. Charter on the other hand is holding on to exactly one reason to vote me.

But the original reason you found him scummy was proved erroneous, correct? You guys were having a pretty heated back and forth yesterday, how many of your listed reasons do you today think are indicative of him being scum?

[VP Baltar]

Why weren't you expecting the game to start so quickly?

Because most games don't start so quickly?


Also, how about some actual analysis. The game is pretty juicy already, so it shouldn't be that hard. Who do you find scummy kitty?

[VP Baltar]

It's kind of funny, not very sure at all. I'm actually leaning more towards Balter since he's not playing like he normally does at town.

Balter, you're scum. What do you have to say about this?

Not much, I guess unless you give a case. I'm curious how I "normally play as town".

[VP Baltar]

You're free to meta me from my wiki, charter. I think I've played very badly in both of the games we have been in together and giving a strong offense is actually much closer to my normal town meta.

I agree about dramonic. Also, hohum needs to post, particularly since I just caught him as lurking scum in our last game together.

[VP Baltar]

You mean which games have we played in together or which games do I think I'm on the offensive in?

[VP Baltar]

Here it is. Notice the weak attacks he launches on me after I nailed his buddy Day 1.

[VP Baltar]

ftr, I don't think hohum was lurking. I wanted to prod him a little bit to see his response, but he wasn't away that long.

Charter-The difference between the two of them is that KittyMo had literally posted NOTHING when I voted her. If you think that was some sort of serious vote, then you are truly lost. While I agree that Amished needs to post, categorizing these two as posting essentially the same amount is not an accurate representation.

It's funny that in the same post that you attack me for apparently launching a one sided lurker attack, you are quick to cover your tracks so you don't get called a hypocrite.

This being said, we need more posts from both Amished and Kittymo.

Also, why did you ignore the questions put to you by KittyMo and Scien?

[VP Baltar]

Why did you switch from voting dramonic (I assume not a serious vote) to voting Kittymo if that also was not a serious vote? That is why I thought it was serious, I don't understand why you'd throw multiple not serious votes around.

By serious I mean intent to lynch. Both were serious in the sense that they had a purpose behind them.

Missed your response to kittymo and it looks like I ninja'd you on the Scein response.

[VP Baltar]

Charter, do you think all of hohum's posts in the game have been "horrible" or just the ones regarding you?

[VP Baltar]

I'm waiting for her to provide her assessment now that her questions have been answered and tell me who she thinks is scum.

[VP Baltar]

Charter, what is your assessment of Amished's posts before he went V/LA?

[VP Baltar]

@VP: Who else are you looking for more information from other than kittymo, if anyone?

This most recent line of questions has been mostly aimed at determining if charter is just lost since he went back on his full bore attack on hohum, or if he is just lost and feeling about.

Also, why was dramonic left off your questionairre?

[VP Baltar]

EBWOP: This most recent line of questions has been mostly aimed at determining if charter is just lost since he went back on his full bore attack on hohum and is just feeling about, or if he actually believes I am scum.



wow, I need to get some sleep I think.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, mega posts need to come to an end.

I'm not high strung, you're manufacturing suspicion. Big no-no for a town-aligned player. It's not good enough for you to come after me based on the mistakes I've actually made -- you've got to invent reasons to justify your vote.

Didn't you just admit to "manufaturing" suspicion on Charter that you later felt was substantiated?

Charter, what is your assessment of Amished's posts before he went V/LA?

Mostly active lurking/joking around.

Ok, so were your suspicions of him earlier based mostly on his play or the fact that he had not posted for a few days?

putting someone at L-1 on early pages, calling someone scummy over syntax and Charter's badnwagon behaviour.

Alas the latter is a null-tell after RotM

This seems lazy.

I'm siding with Scien that charter should interact with hohum if he's not sure about his alignment. I've had many arguments with people I felt were making poor accusations, but you still have to interact with them to get a good read. Hell, I attacked hohum because I felt the base he was building his arguments on sucked, but that doesn't mean I should ignore him. At best it's anti-town behavior.

I saw something from Balter I thought was scummy.

What exactly was this again? I don't think you've said yet. You tried to attack me on meta earlier, but then gave that up I guess. The only thing I see you attacking me for is allegedly attacking KittyMo for lurking while ignoring Amished...which I already pointed out doesn't make sense. I'm still waiting to see any kind of actual argument from you as to WHY I'm scum.

You know, instead of latching onto a single mistake I did you ought to try to broaden your view. You've yet to comment on Kitty Amished and VP.

Have you commented on these players?

@charter-have you played with hohum before? If so, what games?

I meant stuff like Balter hiding behind me when questioning hohum. I see he's also hidden behind you as well, looks like you missed that too. You know, ACTUALLY scummy things.

I don't even understand what you are trying to say here honestly. How am I "hiding" behind anyone? If you mean taking a side in an argument and asking additional questions to try and figure out someone's alignment, then you should probably look up what the word hiding means. As far as I can see, Amished and I are the only two people who have actually been going after every other player to at least some degree.

[VP Baltar]

In the first one, it's pretty bizarre that he asks just hohum. Hohum had already commented that he thought it was a good point. I believe he was asking to try and increase hohum's suspicion on dramonic (even though balter said Scien's argument was bad, which I agree with) by using Scien's argument, but it didn't really work.

Ah, no. I saw there being a potential Scien/hohum scum team and I wanted to see if he felt Scien was making a good argument for dramonic's speed lynch. This came from Scien basically ignoring the bad points hohum was making in his argument with you. I was attempting to assess what sort of connection, if any, was between them. Most recently, Scien has stated that this is part of his strategy to interact with hohum in a more productive manner.

The other problem I had with it, was Balter seemed more concerned (in subsequent posts) with not lynching dramonic on page five than not lynching dramonic for a poor reason.

Well, I still think dramonic has acted scummy and I'm definitely not saying I wouldn't support his lynch at some point today. Doing so on page 5, however, is very sub-optimal play.

Second one is the good one, it's an overly cautious way of questioning hohum's reasons for voting me. He's not trying to refute these reasons, just asking hohum to produce some good ones.

Again, you fail to understand how I scumhunt it seems, though my motivation for asking that should have been fairly obvious from the preface to the question. I wanted hohum to tell me if he still believed all of his reasons for attacking you the previous day because I think you were both being quite emotional at the time. Sometimes sleeping on an argument for a night will give you a new perspective on it, and I wanted to see if hohum's feelings had changed at all after he took a breather.

[VP Baltar]

What led you to see a Scien/hohum scumteam as opposed to a Scien/anyone else or anyone/houm scumteam?

This post is what made me think of it:

What do you think of hohum's constant changing his reasons for voting me every time he finds out what he's trying to push is wrong?

Perfectly in line with his meta every time I have played with him as a townie. He pressures to pressure. He keeps pressure on when certain points are addressed by changing the argument. But he is always abrasive about it in order to get the other person emotionally involved. I see nothing different here.

Felt like he was excusing bad play based on vague meta, which scum are prone to do. I've played with hohum a reasonable number of times, and I don't think he always does this. He definitely pressures people, but the reasons he was arguing early were terrible and I don't find that typical for him.

I don't see where you've said or inferred dramonic is scummy. You just keep asking him to post useful stuff. What has he done that you find scummy? Why is this the first we are hearing about it?

It's not at all. Try reading the thread...or are you ignoring me as well?

Here is my response when Scien asked me who I thought was scum:

Hohum because of his argument over the mislynches, and dramonic because he has yet to do any scumhunting though he has posted.

That reasoning pretty much stands for dramonic. The reason I have been continually prodding him over "useful stuff" is because that is generally how one would determine if someone is genuinely scumhunting or not. I know dramonic can be a little aloof at times, so I want to find out if he is avoiding going after people as scum or as town.

Fine. I still think it's a scummy post, but I'll drop it.

I hate posts like this. If you're wrong, you're wrong. Accept it.

[VP Baltar]

Also, there's no one-true-way to out scum. Liar.

Scien, thoughts?

[VP Baltar]

do you think there is a connection between hohum and Scien?

It's possible, but Scein's latest post about approaching hohum differently this game seems honest to me and consistent with his play earlier. Could be an excuse for giving him a free ride, but it certainly seems less likely than it did when I made my original post.

If you are itching for him to post useful stuff, why aren't you asking him questions to prompt this?

I am asking questions. That was your original accusation, that I was only asking him to post useful stuff. Now you are saying that I'm not doing it enough. You're simply being ridiculous at this point.

You had answers to my questions, but I still think you're scum.

Yeah, you just jumped to the top of my scum list. I've been giving you the benefit of the doubt for awhile now, but congrats.

Unvote, Vote: charter

[VP Baltar]

But seriously, did you see my little explanation for why I still think you're scum, despite your answers?

They were put up as I was posting, and I didn't preview. Looking at them afterward, I'm unimpressed to say the least. It mostly looks like you trying to justify a piss poor vote now that you have been proven wrong at every other turn.

I don't really count "Have you commented on these players?" you asked him, since it's a yes/no question and easily verifiable without asking dramonic.

yeah, except the point of that is to point out the contradiction in his line of argument. I'd still like him to answer it, and when he sees he has not, I'd like him to explain why it is scummy for one person and not for him.

[VP Baltar]

hohum and PZ, you got some 'splaining to do.

[VP Baltar]

PZ, I want to see your case on charter please.

[VP Baltar]

What was your number 1 point PZ? Looks like it got cut off. Also, had you taken notes during your reading of the game?

I'm interested to hear your take on who could be scum now that your top two suspects have flipped town.

Definitely still anxious to hear hohum in the meantime.

[VP Baltar]

We're in lylo, so unless I hear a counterclaim you are caught scum, Scien.

Hohum, I still want you to explain why you quick hammered charter yesterday. Also, why did you investigate Scien last night?

[VP Baltar]

Scien, if you are not scum, then what use is a cop going to do if we lose with your lynch? If hohum is scum, then the cop should confirm it, don't you think?

That being said, you saying you figured out the cipher on Day 1 gives me pause because if that were the case I would think that you would have blocked hohum last night.

[VP Baltar]

Why do you want to force him to claim without knowing what kind of investigation he may or may not have gotten last night?

Because I want to win this game and if you are town, I don't want to lynch you. I have no evidence that hohum is lying other than I don't see why you wouldn't roleblock him if you knew he was the cop. That being said, I see no reason to doubt an uncounterclaimed cop.

I agree with your potential "hohum vanilla scum claims cop" theory to get a mislynch, but why would I take your theory to be the truth over an uncounterclaimed cop who says he has a guilty on you?


PZ, you need to post some opinions pronto.

[VP Baltar]

Well, I guess I agree with you that if the cop has a useless result (ie, investigated Amished, was roleblocked, etc.) then the optimal play would be for him to survive to tomorrow. However, you are going to have to go a long way toward convincing me that you are not scum who is simply trying his best to shovel crap on a cop with a guilty on you. I think you are underestimating two things if you are town 1) no one else has your role information but you, and 2) we absolutely have to lynch scum today.

Losing a cop, in the grand scheme of things, is greater than losing the game.

[VP Baltar]

I mean, I am willing to listen to you for sure Scien. I don't think we have to rush to vote here or anything, but I'm just saying that it's going to have to be a compelling argument without a cop counterclaiming.

[VP Baltar]

@ dramonic-I think my opinion on it has been pretty clearly stated. Who do you believe is more likely to be scum?

[VP Baltar]

Vote: Scien

[VP Baltar]

lol, hohum, I don't know what you were doing, but thanks!

[VP Baltar]

It couldn't be mod error, dram. I blocked hohum last night.

Scien, you played a good game, honestly. I was worried I was getting in to deep throwing dirt on your dramonic lying case because that is definitely what he did. As soon as hohum claimed a fake guilty I jumped for joy because I knew it was going to be one of you today. I was watching this thread waiting for dram to sign on.

[VP Baltar]

lol, I thought you knew when I hammered you Scien....I caught hohum's second breadcrumb when he said he would have a better read on you Day 2.

[VP Baltar]

VP, why did I get your NK?

I figured that you would be the hardest person to get a lynch on. Plus, if you got onto my scum trail I was worried that I wouldn't be able to throw you off.

Dram, why did you never reply in our night talk about the signals! I was worried you didn't see what I said, so I was hesitant about voting.

[VP Baltar]

Yeah, that was too big of a gamble hohum. I think you guys could have caught me perhaps if you had really done some hardcore scum hunting today, but the quick hammer was rough on town.

[VP Baltar]

The hohum vs. charter argument was hugely beneficial day 1 in pushing attention away from dramonic. You know I think you are a good scumhunter hohum, but I think you guys both suffered from the same problem in that arguement, which was allowing your emotions to make you over confident in your reads. Lord knows I have done it before, and it almost always leads to failure.

Charter was right about me, but I think he went for the kill way too soon. Had he waited a little bit more time to let me make some bad posts, I think he could have had me cornered.

[VP Baltar]

@charter- I got lucky that your questions were related to some of my more honest scumhunting in the thread. Where I think would have really got me was if you had pushed me on not really scumhunting toward my "suspicions" of dramonic. I was hesitant to lean on him hard, and if you had followed through on that attack, I think you would have caught me slipping a bit.

re: hohum- Yeah, he played badly this game, but I don't think its fair to say he's the second worst player on the site. I think hohum a good player, but he just got over confident here and was trying to win singlehandedly. I'm sure he learned his lesson. We all make mistakes.

Also, I hope this game will help redeem me in your eyes as not completely sucking at mafia. I have played so atrociously in our other games together and I don't feel that is really my norm. I laughed when you were meta attacking me because I was playing well.

And I third the props to MM. The open queue mods do suck a lot because people are just doing it so they can mod the games they actually want to do. Thanks for taking your responsibilities seriously.

[VP Baltar]

Unfortunately, no. I'm on the waiting list, but it will probably still be a bit before I get another game. I'm in a game that needs a replacement (probably) if you are interested in that at all to square us up (though it is on Day 3 and a bit of a long read).

[VP Baltar]

^that's at amished. No obligation by the way. Feel free to wait until I mod again.

[VP Baltar]

What's the game?

Prozac's LOST mafia, based on season 5. I think ChannelDeliBird needs replacement.

[VP Baltar]

Well, I think he means that your cases could have been condensed Scien. I tend to agree. There were some things (charter ignoring hohum) that you had a lot of unnecessary repetition over without making your point any stronger. Sometimes stating your point strongly once is has more impact than repeating it a lot of times. I tend to find that people are distrustful of players how over argue their cases.

[VP Baltar]

You weren't "rubbing me the wrong way", Scien. I'd gladly play in another game with you. I'm just giving my own personal perspective on what I think is effective scum hunting. If you think your method is more effective, you should follow it. I mean, diversity of playstyles is what makes this game interesting and challenging.

[VP Baltar]

The points you were making were prefectly valid, Scien. I, of course, was subtly undercutting them and working that doubt into your mind the whole time (hence our long debate on it).

I think you may have suffered from the same thing as charter too in the sense that you went for the kill way too early. One thing I have noticed in my mafia experience is that the first wagon of the day is almost never the lynch. I love to be the first wagon because people on these boards almost ALWAYS end up going after the people on the wagon instead of the person being wagoned. I don't know what it is, but I've seen it happen a million times. Usually by the end of Day 1 the first person to be wagoned ends up being the one that everyone says, " I would never lynch him today".

As far as what to do if the town is not listening to you, I like to ask people directly if they agree with my points or not. If they say no, then ask them to explain logically why they don't agree. If they give a decent answer, then all you can do is move on and hopefully come back to that wagon later with some new attacks. If they can't give you a good answer, then harrass them into voting for your top choice. I think that is more effective than battering the witness and hoping that other people join in.

[VP Baltar]

Yeah, I've never seen the first wagon lynched, ever. Probably the "need to get more info" or whatever I'm guessing; and the taboo of ending the day early.

Definitely happens.

Well it happens, but generally only if someone really blows (usually a noob). You're obviously the most experience player here, but I don't see it too often in my games.