Open 173: Pie E7 Game over

[charter]

/confirm

[charter]

vote dramonic

We should lynch him.

[charter]

Why didn't any of you vote for dramonic?

[charter]

I did charter.

You were excluded from that question.

L-1? I don't think so. Why would you expect me to vote Dramonic?

Cause bandwagons are awesome. The bigger the better.

[charter]

unvote

That's what I was looking for. More after dinner.

[charter]

If dramonic is not scum, then I don't want a quickhammer. Scum quickhammering on a townie is such a great strategy in this setup.

That being said, I do find dramonic suspicious (hasn't said anything yet this game), but enough for a lynch on page two? Please.

[charter]

I also find hohum suspicious for putting dramonic in a position of great vulnerability so soon.

[charter]

Because it immediately becomes lylo. Scum have a 40% chance of nailing a powerrole. It's not terribly difficult to talk yourself out of the inevitable policy lynch that people will try and force on you day two. You can always just be like 'oh I didn't see the votecount' and there are ALWAYS people who aren't comfortable policy lynching like that.

Town is left with trying to figure out the scum's partner with no info.

[charter]

Um, no. We get one mislynch. If we mislynch twice, it is game over. Read the rules and get back to me.

[charter]

Hohum, why do you switch your vote all over the place? Why did you stop voting dramonic?

[charter]

MISLYNCH TODAY. NIGHTKILL TONIGHT. WE ARE AT FIVE PEOPLE. LYNCH SCUM TOMORROW. NIGHTKILL TOMORROW. DAY THREE IS THREE PEOPLE ALIVE, ONE SCUM. READ THE DAMN RULES AND LEARN MATH.

[charter]

That all equals one mislynch, which is blown day one.

[charter]

THERES FUCKING SEVEN PEOPLE IN A PIE E7 GAME.

[charter]

vote dramonic

Since he has made like ten posts and hasn't voted or given an opinion on anyone. Just active lurking.

[charter]

No dramonic, it is frustrating dealing with this incompetence, doubly so when he's using it to justify a poor vote.

[charter]

notice how he's refusing to point out why I'm being ignorant and trying to change the topic by going on a lurker hunt.

You should probably just stop posting. It is impeding the process of finding scum.

[charter]

You know, voting me is nice and all, but you can't call me an active lurker when the game hasn't even stretched long enough for someone to receive a prod.

You wanna vote me, then make a case, don't just throw some crap together

Sorry, I meant you are posting a ton, but you haven't said much. You're just posting for the sake of posting, not to try and find scum.

[charter]

I'm not reading your posts very carefully, that's for sure. That's a dumb question, but whatever. Ask questions, look at votes, lynch scum.

Why are you voting me again? Still clinging to two mislynches?

[charter]

Ok, policy ignoring hohum's posts.

On one hand, I could vote Hohum for putting me at L-1 on page three, but that'd be hypocrisy.
On the other, I could vote you for being wagon-crazy, but RotM shows you do that as town.
On a third (!) hand, with the mod, the three of us form about 60~70% of the game so far and we got kicked out of RVS rather swiftly, I'm not going to vote somene without a read on them.

Who are you most suspicious of currently?

[charter]

Ok, policy ignoring hohum's posts.

You're ignoring me because you know I'm right. You're stubbornly refusing to admit that you're wrong about the setup, which tells me you're doing it on purpose and it wasn't an "oops I forgot to think ahead" mistake.

You've admitted that you're not actually reading the thread but merely skimming through it.

This thread needs more charter lynching.

Alright, last time I respond, I promise.

EXPLAIN IN CLEAR ENGLISH HOW TOWN GETS TWO MISLYNCHES IF SCUM QUICKHAMMER TOWN DAY ONE. GO ON.

[charter]

HOW THE FUCK DO YOU HAVE SEVEN PEOPLE ALIVE DAY TWO? THERE ARE SEVEN PEOPLE ALIVE NOW. LEARN. MATH.

I apologize to everyone else for spamming the thread with this, but this is an important issue that needs to be clear for everyone.

[charter]

unvote

My vote is going on hohum, just going to wait a few pages before we lynch him. Here's his original reason for voting me.

Further experience tells me that scum like to fight this point in these small setups tooth and nail.

All these things that I was arguing were right, and now he's changed his reason once I've pointed this out. He's just trying to get in a lynch, but doing it all wrong.

[charter]

I know the rules. Your inability to grasp the basic mechanics of this setup is astounding. If we catch 1 of the two scum the scum have to drive us down to a 1:1 endgame, hence we get 2 mislynches instead of 1.

Lulz.

[charter]

I think you missed where I didn't vote you. OH MY GOD. NOT READING THE THREAD. OH MY GOD. SCUM.

Please, you've been wrong about everything you've said so far, not suprisingly, about me being scum as well. Please start trying, kthxbai.

[charter]

I'm more interested in why hohum was so diehard on the two mislynch thing when it was obviously not the case.

Didn't you hear? That makes me scum!

Wait a few pages and lets lynch him.

[charter]

First off, I did not criticize or pressure anyone in to putting dramonic at L-1 (unless you count "let's lynch him" which was obviously not serious). I asked why no one voted dramonic. I wanted to see what people said.


There's no need to wagon hohum, he's already outed himself as scum. I don't want a lynch right now because I am not sure who his partner is.

[charter]

What do you think of hohum's constant changing his reasons for voting me every time he finds out what he's trying to push is wrong?

[charter]

Further, I've listed about half a dozen other reasons to vote charter. Charter on the other hand is holding on to exactly one reason to vote me.

But the original reason you found him scummy was proved erroneous, correct? You guys were having a pretty heated back and forth yesterday, how many of your listed reasons do you today think are indicative of him being scum?

I'll just answer for him, since he's probably going to spew some more BS. None of his reasons are valid. Plus, one good reason for thinking someone is scum is better than a dozen really bad ones.

I'm going to wait for KittyMo to post his thoughts before I start finding hohum's partner.

[charter]

So why are you voting me?

Finding hohum's partner will be easy. Lynch scum day one and powerroles win the game. When his eventual lynch comes 'round, his buddy will probably try and save him.

And no, I'd prefer if hohum just stops posting entirely, it will make the game much more enjoyable.

[charter]

No, there were a bunch of rhetorical questions in 138. You just repeat 'doesn't want hohum running his mouth' like three times.

There is a lot more to finding scum than listening to the spam of someone.

[charter]

Charter: How sure are you that Hohum is scum?

It's kind of funny, not very sure at all. I'm actually leaning more towards Balter since he's not playing like he normally does at town.

Balter, you're scum. What do you have to say about this?

[charter]

mod prod hohumscum please

Didn't realize he was lurking scum as well.

[charter]

Yeah, if I had something concrete, I'd post it, but you've been more on the offensive than when I've played you and you were town. Here you seem to be quicker to attack people.

Dramonic, please post something useful.

[charter]

What game?

[charter]

The game you just caught hohum as lurkerscum in.

[charter]

Can you prod hohum mod?

[charter]

Prod Amished please

I am ~50% sure it is Balter and Amished. Scien is just totally lost. hohum is a total idiot. Kittymo is being attacked by Balter, while he is ignoring Amished, though they are both guilty of lurking. Dramonic is obviously town. I believe that is everyone.

vote Balter

He is launching little attacks at hohum from behind me. He is ignoring Amished's lurking while voting Kittymo for lurking. Amished has just active lurked and lurked, never played with him, so I don't know if this is par for the course or not. I am slightly more inclined to think Balter is scum (in case they are not buddies), so I will be voting for him.

This being said, we need more posts from both Amished and Kittymo.

[charter]

What do you gain from not letting him speak. What do you gain from pushing that a certain person's voice is completely useless? Why do you think it would be better for him to sit in the corner and lurk rather than continue pushing a weak case if you truly believe him scum? Would not his over zealousness in pushing a weak case hasten his demise?

I gain much enjoyability from the game. I do not value his opinions, and hence I lose nothing. I'm not really that sure of him being scum after reading the game Balter posted. He actually seemed like an intelligible human being in that one, this is the complete opposite.

Okay... lets try again. Do you think Hohum scum? Your vote is not placed so maybe not I guess... Why would you not like to hear more from him? Are you sure of his role one way or the other? I don't think you could be. Why shut him up if you don't know his role?

I'm not very sure of him being scum. I don't really care to hear more from him. Not sure of his role. If he keeps posting like that, and is town, he is creating a giant wall of idiocy for scum to hide behind. He will mislynch himself. If he just stops posting, it becomes more difficult for him to do that, while at the same time, everyone else is free to hunt scum.

Why? Why does it aid the town to ignore any information? Why... as a townie... would you not be concerned, and examining anything someone was saying. Especially since that person was attacking you at the time, and you as a townie would have to determine if that was due to nefarious motives or not?

There's really no reason to read posts full of wrong like his are. All I get is frustrated and make posts like 'hohum is scum' because I can't imagine a townie making them. Once I just ignore his terrible posts, and focus on the rest of the game, scumhunting actually became much easier.

The answer to the rest of your questions is I made those posts after dealing with hohum, and it seemed impossible that someone pushing such terrible ideas could possibly be town. Once I reread ignoring his posts, I found things in Balter and Amished I think are scum, without considering hohum's posts.

[charter]

Charter-The difference between the two of them is that KittyMo had literally posted NOTHING when I voted her. If you think that was some sort of serious vote, then you are truly lost. While I agree that Amished needs to post, categorizing these two as posting essentially the same amount is not an accurate representation.

Why did you switch from voting dramonic (I assume not a serious vote) to voting Kittymo if that also was not a serious vote? That is why I thought it was serious, I don't understand why you'd throw multiple not serious votes around.

Also, why did you ignore the questions put to you by KittyMo and Scien?

I believe I answered them.

[charter]

Charter, do you think all of hohum's posts in the game have been "horrible" or just the ones regarding you?

Almost all of them, there were a few in the beginning that weren't horrible.

What is the reason for you still voting Kittymo now that she has posted?

[charter]

Hmmm, Amished having a reason for not being here lessens suspicion of him quite a bit.

[charter]

Charter, what is your assessment of Amished's posts before he went V/LA?

Mostly active lurking/joking around.

@Charter: I thought you were more logical early on, though I disagree with you about VP being scum so far. Who is your nominal choice for hohum's partner?

Scien. He seems to think hohum is making sense.

Amished's post was actually really good. It was nice to see a catch up post that didn't summarize the thread.

[charter]

First. You have posted before that you are sure Hohum is scum, and you were just looking elsewhere to find a partner. Second. Hohum's not even a real suspect of yours? Third. How am I lost. I am asking questions in your general direction, and I am presented with avoidance. If you are town, wouldn't you typically answer were you could? Even though you decided to answer some of my concerns this time around, you conveniently avoided a few points of mine, and left them unanswered. What do you expect me to make of that?

I've already explained this. After he pushed all his crap, I thought he was scum. Once I reread with a clear head and read that game balter posted, I don't think he's scum anymore. You're lost because A) you're convinced I'm scum (I'm not by the way), B) you're ignoring everything in the game other than really blatent things you can pick out in the thread, that really have nothing to do with anything, and C) obsessing on things like 'charter ignores hohum's posts'. If there's a question you need answered, let me know and I'll answer, but I'm not going to do a giant quote war.

Dramonic is obviously town.

Why?

Dramonic is really easy to tell if he's town or scum. He's town.

But how do you think a silent player would help the town? Don't you need to gather all the information that you can get?

I already said, he isn't mislynching himself if he's town. No, getting people to spam the thread isn't an effective way of finding scum.

How do you plan to become more sure of him? Especially when you want to do so while not talking to him?

Look at his votes.

[On Hohum's scum partner] Scien. He seems to think hohum is making sense.

Way to reverse again. Not sure that Hohum is scum? Think that it is Amished and Balter? Oh, you said that Amished being V/LA changed things? Did it change things enough for you to go back to someone else scum? Fickle much?

He was asking who I'd pick to be hohum's partner. If hohum is scum, I think you're his partner. I don't see what there isn't to understand about that. I'm still voting Balter, but Amished's post was really town, so I'm not sure if he's Balter's buddy. I don't see a change back to someone else there. You're inventing these contradictions.

Besides all that I am going to level with the town straight here. I am trying something completely different here. I have not played a game yet with Hohum were he wasn't town, and didn't play like this. In our past games, I fought him long and hard about his play style, his methods of pressuring, his weak claims, and strong attacks. In the end that didn't serve the town well to attack him for that due to him eventually getting lynched for it while he was town. In this game I am actively doing the opposite. I am trying to aid in the pressure he is generating. Even while keeping a close eye on him.

Why on earth would you encourage this type of play? Instead of bickering with him, I'm ignoring him. You said yourself, he gets himself lynched for his bad play. That's what I'm trying to avoid if he's town since there's little margin for error. Why are you criticizing me for trying to avoid this by ignoring his posts?

Back to me:
I am suspicious of Dramonic: I think he actively lied in thread, and I want to lynch him on this alone. Townies have no reason to lie. This has nothing to do with syntax. This has nothing to do with psychology. This is purely due to him "not finding the thread" after he got his PM, when the freggin thread would have been in the top 5 most recent threads at least, if he was as quick at checking as he suggested. The syntax thing just drives it home to me, even if it is weak enough that I can't use it to build my case to you.

Why does this make him scum?

I am suspicious of Charter: He has avoided some of my questions, even if in the same breath he answered others. He suspects Hohum, then he doesn't, then he does but won't vote, then he doesn't, then he does again. Sounds like a freggin flag in the wind.

If I miss a question, point it out and I'll answer it. My stance on hohum is this: I thought he was scum after his line of wrong/bad posts, I reread a while later and read the game balter posted, I wasn't very sure after that, and I saw something from Balter I thought was scummy.

Oh and what is Rotm?

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11828

[charter]

Ok, I'm not going to make another post that big, promise. Sorry about that.

[charter]

Scien, I am NOT doing a quote war. I'm not going to answer any questions that boil down to why I don't want people spamming. The answer to any question of 'why don't you want more info' is because I don't want it if it's useless. I'm not answering any dumb questions of "how are you going to figure out his alignment?", scumhunting. I'm ignoring because I find the game more enjoyable and easier.

Nope. I am sure Dramonic is scum. I am examining you. There is a difference. True or false, you think anyone questioning you thinks you scum or is scum? [not rhetorical]

Why are you voting for me then? Twice. You're almost certainly wrong about dramonic though. False.

B) you're ignoring everything in the game other than really blatent things you can pick out in the thread, that really have nothing to do with anything

I am ignoring nothing. Where am I ignoring things? [not rhetorical]

You haven't said anything about Kittymo or Amished. Why aren't you questioning them and giving them a reason to post? Doesn't seem like an effective way of getting as much info as you can, though when hohum posts useless posts, you criticize me for ignoring them. But you're ignoring two players! This is just the easy answer for me to give (still true though), by missing things, I meant stuff like Balter hiding behind me when questioning hohum. I see he's also hidden behind you as well, looks like you missed that too. You know, ACTUALLY scummy things.

Why are the things I am looking at meaningless? [not rhetorical]

They really don't tell you if someone's posts are town motivated or scum motivated. Like now, for instance, I'd be giving all the same answers regardless of alignment, asking 20 questions isn't as useful as one really good question.

No, getting people to spam the thread isn't an effective way of finding scum

In your opinion what if a scum is the one doing the spamming? If a scum is giving you information like a fire hose, how does it hurt town?

Ok, I think I've found the root of this disagreement. Information is not the same as MOAR WORDS PLZ. Typing as much as you can is not information and is bad for finding scum. Doesn't matter who is typing a lot.

Why does this make him scum?

As I have said before, townies would have NO REASON to lie in thread. Therefore liars are scum.

You have much to learn.

[charter]

Amished, who is your top suspect currently and why?

[charter]

These are the two posts from Balter that led me to believe he is scum, I started this when I made my last post, but had to do a bunch of errrands. I'll just preface this by saying I'm really bad at explaining why something makes someone scum, just that they actually are scum quite often, so if I'm not clear, let me know.

What do you think of Scien's argument for a dramonic lynch?

and

Further, I've listed about half a dozen other reasons to vote charter. Charter on the other hand is holding on to exactly one reason to vote me.

But the original reason you found him scummy was proved erroneous, correct? You guys were having a pretty heated back and forth yesterday, how many of your listed reasons do you today think are indicative of him being scum?

In the first one, it's pretty bizarre that he asks just hohum. Hohum had already commented that he thought it was a good point. I believe he was asking to try and increase hohum's suspicion on dramonic (even though balter said Scien's argument was bad, which I agree with) by using Scien's argument, but it didn't really work. After asking it, we didn't hear another word from Balter about this. The other problem I had with it, was Balter seemed more concerned (in subsequent posts) with not lynching dramonic on page five than not lynching dramonic for a poor reason.

Second one is the good one, it's an overly cautious way of questioning hohum's reasons for voting me. He's not trying to refute these reasons, just asking hohum to produce some good ones.

Like I said, terrible explanations, but I'm reasonably sure Balter is scum.

[charter]

But what can I question about?

Uhhh, literally anything you want? 'Hey Kittmo, who's your top suspect?' 'Kittymo, what do you think about this player?' 'Kittymo, what do you think about this post? Why?' I'd think any of these questions would be excellent and none of them require any previous posts by Kittymo.

Lynch all Liars. Smarter people than myself agree with that policy.

The sooner you realize this is one of the worst mafia theories, the better. A LOT more people do not think LAL is valid than those that do.

Ok, so were your suspicions of him earlier based mostly on his play or the fact that he had not posted for a few days?

What I thought was him lurking, but he was V/LA.

@charter-have you played with hohum before? If so, what games?

Not recently, maybe before he flaked.

[charter]

In the first one, it's pretty bizarre that he asks just hohum. Hohum had already commented that he thought it was a good point. I believe he was asking to try and increase hohum's suspicion on dramonic (even though balter said Scien's argument was bad, which I agree with) by using Scien's argument, but it didn't really work.

Ah, no. I saw there being a potential Scien/hohum scum team and I wanted to see if he felt Scien was making a good argument for dramonic's speed lynch. This came from Scien basically ignoring the bad points hohum was making in his argument with you. I was attempting to assess what sort of connection, if any, was between them. Most recently, Scien has stated that this is part of his strategy to interact with hohum in a more productive manner.

What led you to see a Scien/hohum scumteam as opposed to a Scien/anyone else or anyone/houm scumteam?

The other problem I had with it, was Balter seemed more concerned (in subsequent posts) with not lynching dramonic on page five than not lynching dramonic for a poor reason.

Well, I still think dramonic has acted scummy and I'm definitely not saying I wouldn't support his lynch at some point today. Doing so on page 5, however, is very sub-optimal play.

I don't see where you've said or inferred dramonic is scummy. You just keep asking him to post useful stuff. What has he done that you find scummy? Why is this the first we are hearing about it?

Second one is the good one, it's an overly cautious way of questioning hohum's reasons for voting me. He's not trying to refute these reasons, just asking hohum to produce some good ones.

Again, you fail to understand how I scumhunt it seems, though my motivation for asking that should have been fairly obvious from the preface to the question. I wanted hohum to tell me if he still believed all of his reasons for attacking you the previous day because I think you were both being quite emotional at the time. Sometimes sleeping on an argument for a night will give you a new perspective on it, and I wanted to see if hohum's feelings had changed at all after he took a breather.

Fine. I still think it's a scummy post, but I'll drop it.

[charter]

Ok.

Balter, do you think there is a connection between hohum and Scien?

I'm not ignoring you, I missed that you said you thought dramonic was scummy. If you are itching for him to post useful stuff, why aren't you asking him questions to prompt this?

You had answers to my questions, but I still think you're scum.

[charter]

Part of the reason I still think you're scum. I'm not scum. I'm pretty sure dramonic is not scum. I don't think hohum is scum. Scien I could go either way on. Kittymo I could go either way on. Amished I'm leaning town. I will be lame and say gut in addition to those posts as for why I think Balter is scum. So, I can easily see two of Scien, Kittymo, and Balter as scum, and since Balter is voting Kittymo (why are you even still voting her?) it's unlikely that it's Balter and Kittmo together. Basically, any way I slice it, Balter comes in the picture as questionable.

[charter]

Oh. Ma. God. You. Suck.

But seriously, did you see my little explanation for why I still think you're scum, despite your answers?

Also, the last time I find you asked dramonic any questions was post 128, and he answered them. This was before you said you thought he was scum as well. I don't really count "Have you commented on these players?" you asked him, since it's a yes/no question and easily verifiable without asking dramonic. I don't see how this is ridiculous by me, if you claim to suspect dramonic for not scumhunting, but aren't questioning anything he's doing.

[charter]

I would advise against putting hohum at L-1 anyone. If he's there and makes another post like that, I'll probably hammer in a knee jerk reaction to the sheer awfulness his post is chock full of.

[charter]

Charter: You sure do waffle a lot. In the space of 3 pages you've gone from saying I'm scummy to saying you have a town read on me and now I'm back to scum again.

Which is it? You have a bad read on me or you don't. It can't be both and it can't be either or when it suits your whims.

No, I said I'd hammer you cause you're an idiot. OMG NOT READING THE THREADZ. ZOMGZ YOURE SCUM.

[charter]

Whatever makes you sleep at night

[charter]

dramonic, what's your read of Balter?

[charter]

Argh, this is going to be tough.

Amished, your read on Balter?

[charter]

dramonic/Amished/Kittymo's replacement, would you guys vote Scien? Do you think he's scum?

At this point, he's probably my second choice for lynching. He's still clinging to a dramonic vote, which wasn't valid in the first place. He hasn't mentioned hardly anyone but dramonic or myself.

[charter]

Might as well

unvote, vote Scien

Since a Balter lynch isn't going to happen.

[charter]

Oh, Scien isn't still voting dramonic, but he's still convinced dramonic is scum, for the 'lie' which is bogus.

[charter]

Yeah, I'm not claiming until someone other than Balter gives a reason for voting me. Pressure, no reason, and whatever the hell goes on in hohum's head are not reasons to hammer someone.

[charter]

Dumbest retard ever. You should really just massflake again and never come back.

[charter]

And I'll say that I'm still pretty sure Balter is scum, Zito is a maybe, Scien is a maybe.

[charter]

yes I gambled. Blame this loss squarely on me.

QUIT MAFIASCUM AND NEVER EVER COME BACK

Charter was right about me, but I think he went for the kill way too soon. Had he waited a little bit more time to let me make some bad posts, I think he could have had me cornered.

Yeah, after you posted your answers to my case, I was like "shit, those are really good, no is going to follow me now".

Dramonic, really good play, had me fooled.
Scien, ask less questions. Sorry about not believing you about dramonic, but it didn't seem like a big deal. Have to learn for the future.
Amished, good job, made yourself obvtown.
Balter, curse you and your answers that make sense.
Zito, terrible.
Hohum, going to see if he can be banned for breaking site rule seven. Your actions clearly ruined the game. No case can be made for any of your play being to win as town. There's no point in playing games with you in them since you are a bonus scum member and you wasted everyone's time. Fuck off. Also, undoubtedly the second worst player on the site, even with play this atrocious, there is worse...

Mitey, good job modding. You have restored my faith in open game mods. This was going to be my last one since the last four or so mods for open games I've been in have been terrible.

Really no way for town to win with hohum playing. Waste of all our time.

[charter]

you're such a fucking baby. It's a game and I made some judgment mistakes. It happens, grow up.

Maybe you should spend your time learning how not to play utterly terrible rather than continuing to insult people because they were right.

[charter]

Zito, terrible.

No. I shouldn't be able to put together a page-long case on the Doc on Day 1.

Dude, hohum, I dunno what to say here.

Except, you didn't. I might have claimed (probably not) if you had given actual reasons for voting me, but with three votes on me without reason/for pressure it would have been horrible play to claim doc then. Of course, quickhammering in an open setup takes the cake for horrible play.

[charter]

Why didn't you just post the case when you voted? Or something?

[charter]

Yeah, I've never seen the first wagon lynched, ever. Probably the "need to get more info" or whatever I'm guessing; and the taboo of ending the day early.

Definitely happens.

[charter]

Yeah, but I'm pretty new here, and in my 15 (tops) completed games, I don't think I've ever seen the first wagon lynched. Unless it leaves and comes back.

Just saying. Don't let someone off the hook because 'they're the first wagon' or 'it happened on page three' if what they did is scummy enough to be lynched over.