Mini 848 - Second String Muppets Mafia - Game Over.

[Ectomancer]

/confirm

[Ectomancer]

I believe we have 11 of 12. Is that enough to kick things off?

[Ectomancer]

vote Ectomancer

what're you rushing for? Are you antsy in fear of the scum we get to put into a paper bag and slam against a wall tonite? YOU MAFIA SCUMMM!

A little too strong?

Roles have now been sent out. Please cofirm in thread when you have read and understand your role and the rules. Those who have roles that can communicate outside the game thread can do so until the confirmations are over and Day One starts or until 10:00 PM EDT/7:00 PM PDT Tuesday, September 15th, 2009 whichever occurs later.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

Reading comprehension for the win.

Also, mind enlightening us as to what this was supposed to mean or accomplish for you?

<sob> I have such bad luck.

[Ectomancer]

Spring, if your PM is anti-town, explain how you are not going against your win condition by revealing yourself to the town, even if your PR can result in a pro-town effect? (and seriously, a lack of OMGUS = bad? okie)

Jordan, what exactly is the source of your bad luck? (or more aptly put, what is it that you want us to believe you have interpreted as bad)

[Ectomancer]

2)My role is a screw role, I have a PR which is apparently antitown, but my PM hints at possible protown effect if I use it. I've decided that the way I'm gonna play it is as follow: within this post is a cipher, if I decide to use my PR at any given time I'll use the cipher in one of my post so I can ref back to it.

The reason I'm softclaiming now is as follow: a)I'm not sure of the positive effect of my PR which is hinted to be huge b)but i'm pretty sure attracting a kill won't do too much harm to the town since there is a downside to my PR.

You have a choice whether to follow your post restriction? What kind of downside? You won't be able to communicate certain types of information? How much can you tell us here.

I'm pretty sure that PR = Power Role not Post Restriction in this context.

I can't tell, I thought Power Role at first, but I see that Post Restriction could also conceivably fit. Need some clarity here.

You have 5 votes on you Jordan. Do you believe that scum is on the wagon? Which players are the most likely candidates?

[Ectomancer]

SL, you need to clarify like now. Does PR mean post restriction or power role? Do you have an anti-town role or anti-town power?

Kirby and Monkey, why did you not comment on SL and her softclaim?

Because I take a cautious approach to making attacks early in day 1. I find exaggerating what happens early in the day often leads to mislynches. Also I've been trying to determine the motives for the softclaim, the whole scenario seems a little strange to me.

There's a big difference between commenting and attacking, which is why I said "comment", not "attack". If the whole scenario is strange to you, why didn't you ask about it, like I did?

If it was strange to him, he noticed it. Failing to discuss it indicates he is cautious. Day 1, we know nothing yet, why the need for caution Monkey? I also want to express dissappointment in Kirby.

[Ectomancer]

Vote: MonkeyMan

. Jordan is directly answering a question about the people on his wagon. That's not OMGUS. I agree that Jordan should add more on why you and Kirby are "strange", but your calling this OMGUS is scummy.

Just because you're answering a question doesn't mean it obsolves you of having to provide examples. And I don't think the question was directed on the wagonee so much as those who might be less biased.

You have the right to actively defend yourself by demanding an explanation for 'strange', but MCL is right, it wasn't OMGUS. His basis for vote on you also has merit as you seem to be making Jordan's assessment of you out to be a scummy attack, when it was a response to a direct question. That is a bit of a derived method of building a case that a wagon of 5 would seem to demand.

[Ectomancer]

Laying hints to his role in his random vote.

Alright, I want to cut Jordan out of this portion of the conversation, so Jordan, don't even address this, let proxies speak. Explain this point of the several you are building against Jordan Monkey. Here is that quote:

vote Ectomancer

what're you rushing for? Are you antsy in fear of the scum we get to put into a paper bag and slam against a wall tonite? YOU MAFIA SCUMMM!

A little too strong?

Now why should I not believe you are rolefishing by sneaking this accusation into the mix? By including it, you get Jordan to respond one way or another, thus giving you information to read off of, much like town does to get info to lynch scum.
I've seen town lay hints to roles in proportion to their numbers, so I don't see how laying a hint would be alignment indicative.
I've also seen Jordan appear fairly recently on the site, and he appears to be a legitimate new player, and I believe I've seen new players more prone to things like 'breadcrumbs'.

Let's assume that you are right, and he breadcrumbed a role with his inclusion of the word 'tonite'. So what?
So you are cautious enough not to inquire into Spring's clear as mud statement, but not cautious enough to know better than to poke around what could be a newbie town PR breadcrumb? I don't buy that.

vote Monkey

[Ectomancer]

That's not the post I was referring to, I was referring to his post where he said "I have no luck", I figured he was referring to his role.

Aside from that, you're being quite nitpicky as to what I should and shouldn't be responding to. it's quite easy to build a "case" against someone regarding every little thing you think they should or shouldn't be saying. You are ignoring the other parts of my case as well.

Make up your mind. Did he do it doing his /confirm or during his random vote as you stated previously? You look to be scrambling now.

Inconsistency is a hallmark of scum. You ignored Spring's statement that should not have been ignored, and are digging at what you believe to be a softclaim that should have been left alone. Such inconsistencies have led me to catch scum when scum wasn't even aware that they had done such a thing.
I didn't ignore your other points, and in fact mentioned myself that you mentioned 'several' of them. The only way that would be relevant is if I was trying to dismiss the case on Jordan completely, I have not yet done that. I'm focusing on the point you are making that illustrates that you are a scumbag.

Snix, I challenge you to explain the logic that would dictate that a town player ignore a universally confusing statement and in the next moment take a scummy poke at a possible town softclaim. His lack of caution surrounding the softclaim utterly dispels the notion that he is cautious by nature, which is the excuse he gave for ignoring Spring.

SL, you need to clarify like now. Does PR mean post restriction or power role? Do you have an anti-town role or anti-town power?

Kirby and Monkey, why did you not comment on SL and her softclaim?

Because I take a cautious approach to making attacks early in day 1. I find exaggerating what happens early in the day often leads to mislynches. Also I've been trying to determine the motives for the softclaim, the whole scenario seems a little strange to me.

Look right here. He is reluctant to touch Spring's softclaim because he's trying to determine the motives for it. Really? Then what makes Jordan's any different?

Monkey wasn't sure that it was a softclaim and wanted Jordan's response to gauge whether he did or not

. Wait a second, I thought he was cautious and tries to figure these things out? And it isn't as though the "bad luck" topic wasn't already broached to Jordan by me and responded to by him. Yet "cautious" Monkey needs to route out a softclaim? I thought he found that exaggeration leads to mislynches? Calling Jordan's first statement a softclaim isn't an exaggeration?

Monkey needs to be lynched.

Snix, you may now present the "very strong logic" of your own.

P.S. - I believe that posting under your alt repeatedly in this game is your method of making it difficult to analyze and follow the thread of your posts. You might make an actual effort at logging in under the name you are playing this game under.

[Ectomancer]

Clarification: PR means Power Role.
I'm clearly town aligned.
I'm not answering to any other role related question since with those clarification my last post should be clear enough for now.

I have other comments at this point but I'm choosing to let this game stew for 24 more hours.

How are you "clearly town aligned?"

Doese claiming power role automatically mean you are telling the truth? Why are you afraid of people asking questions, do you have something to hide?

FOS: springlullaby

I believe that Spring is saying there is no ambiguity in her alignment, but from her initial post we can assume her role is somewhat unusual and she is possibly at issue on how exactly to use it. Take it as an explanation that something odd may happen and she may be at the cause. We can take it as scum setting something up from the get go, or town warning us of a consequence of her actions to help avoid confusion later.

Take it as scummy, or take it as neutral. Ask Spring about something else, but I think we've heard enough about the role.

[Ectomancer]

I'm feeling good about the Monkey-wagon. Ecto's catch of being cautious with respect to SL while not being cautious with respect to Jordan is a good one.

However, the following is ridiculous:

P.S. - I believe that posting under your alt repeatedly in this game is your method of making it difficult to analyze and follow the thread of your posts. You might make an actual effort at logging in under the name you are playing this game under.

That's a massive stretch. Occam's Razor suggests that not re-logging in under the correct name is an easy and innocent mistake to make. That is, I can't read it as anything but null and it tweaks my scum-dar a bit by saying it's not null.

I believe that the first time was an honest accident. I believe that subsequent incidents are deliberate sloppiness once he realized the effect it would have.

[Ectomancer]

Heh, well I've seen no discussion of my in-game behavior, so it would be rather difficult to take discussion off of it hey? It was not I that brought your alt into the game in the first place. You logged it in and posted. At the very least, by my bringing up the topic, you might make a real effort to login under one name now mightn't you?

I didn't see Spring criticize anyone after the softclaim. She said she wouldn't answer anymore role related questions. I don't see how you can say asking her why she softclaimed isn't pursuing the role itself when it is clear that the function of the role itself is what made her mention it in the first place.

[Ectomancer]

Wait, I thought you were the guy who watched for exaggeration? Spring gave no suspicions, and saying that her statement that she wouldn't answer any role related questions was an excuse for her not to answer any questions is an exaggeration.
I'm the one who asked you to stay away from the softclaim, and I haven't based any suspicions on you upon it. The fact that I

am

suspicious of you for other reasons is a motivating factor in herding you away from softclaim questions as I think it is best left alone. That doesn't mean you can't ask her, for example, about my case on you.

[Ectomancer]

This is getting rediculous. Ecto and Jordan have been defending each other and attacking in tandem the entire day.

While functionally you may see no difference, attacking your attacks on Jordan is not the same as defending Jordan. The closest I have come to defending Jordan is to say that as a newer player he is more likely to be inclined to breadcrumb or 'softclaim' a role, meaning his action there at worst would be a null tell, if indeed it was a softclaim at all.

[Ectomancer]

While functionally you may see no difference, attacking your attacks on Jordan is not the same as defending Jordan.

Functionally

there is no difference, and functionality is what really matters, imo. Maybe you're being a little too careful that you don't defend him directly, but how is that less scummy than defending him indirectly?

Excuse me? Are you trying to say that attacking Monkey through his case points on Jordan is scummy and that by doing so, you can only be defending Jordan and in a scummy manner at that? You are stretching as far as you can on that one, both of you.

[Ectomancer]

I'm feeling good about the Monkey-wagon. Ecto's catch of being cautious with respect to SL while not being cautious with respect to Jordan is a good one.

However, the following is ridiculous:

P.S. - I believe that posting under your alt repeatedly in this game is your method of making it difficult to analyze and follow the thread of your posts. You might make an actual effort at logging in under the name you are playing this game under.

That's a massive stretch. Occam's Razor suggests that not re-logging in under the correct name is an easy and innocent mistake to make. That is, I can't read it as anything but null and it tweaks my scum-dar a bit by saying it's not null.

I don't have a double standard. When I suggested caution, I was explaining my overall approach, not a case by case basis. I'm more aggressive on Jordan because I find him scummier. The whole case against me seems to be based on faulty psychoanalysis.

I think it can be shown that you had no stated case against Jordan, just a vote until

he listed you as one of the possible scum on his wagon.

Now, are you more aggressive because you found him scummier, or because you are engaged in OMGUS? Let's analyze your "case" because it is so flimsy that it is clearly an attempt to get back at Jordan.

That being said, I don't think Jordan has helped his cause since the wagon started. Laying hints to his role in his random vote. Trying to defend future behavior by saying he's a "spammer". Then what I feel is an OMGUS, and (so far) pointing fingers without providing examples. Wagoning is a perfectly valid early game strategy, even without an extensive case, as it can be useful in
provoking reactions and catching scum, but, as said above, I think there are plenty of reasons to be suspicious of Jordan at this point.

1: "laying hints to his role" - show me where that became something that town doesn't do.
2: Trying to defend his future behavior by saying he's a spammer. - In point of fact, it wasn't future behavior he was defending, it was his pre-game chatter. Nice of you to twist his answer to make him look bad if we ignored the fact that he was explaining his earlier behavior.
3: It was pointed out to you that there is no OMGUS, but you really tried to make it out to be one.

I can't tell if you are trying to attack Jordan or defend yourself with the waguns R gud statement at the end there. If defending yourself, I don't know why you are knocking down a strawman that nobody put up.

Pretty clearly evident that you were simply trying to scrape as much mud as you could to throw at Jordan as a result of being named as one of the potential scum on his wagon.

[Ectomancer]

While functionally you may see no difference, attacking your attacks on Jordan is not the same as defending Jordan.

Functionally

there is no difference, and functionality is what really matters, imo. Maybe you're being a little too careful that you don't defend him directly, but how is that less scummy than defending him indirectly?

Excuse me? Are you trying to say that attacking Monkey through his case points on Jordan is scummy and that by doing so, you can only be defending Jordan and in a scummy manner at that? You are stretching as far as you can on that one, both of you.

What I'm saying(I can't speak for Kirb) is that if Jordan is scum, he may have made a rookie mistake by fingering Kirb and I, two people he knew were town(in a hypothetical Jordan-scum scenario) and that had already voted for him. Furthermore, the undeniable connections between you and Jordan at this point gives the town the possibility to catch two scum right off the bat, wheras the case against Kirb and I is very weak.

Dodging.
That's a lot of gibberish that doesn't address the point and makes up some new things while at it. How does that even begin to address whether attacking a point in someone's case against another player is scummy? . Where did you even come close to saying that Jordan is possibly newbie scum and as newbie scum would be more likely to pick two town players, you and Kirby? (I can point to MD to demonstrate where he was already warned about avoiding casting suspicion on his partners) Where have you shown where Jordan is more likely be newbie scum than newbie town to even begin looking for scum buddies? And in fact, isn't this scum buddy accusation nothing more than OMGUS distraction to keep from answering to your inconsistent behavior?

Now, you may count this as a defense if you like, but I'll point out yet again that what I've done is dispell the validity of your attacks and explain where the scummy motivations in your actions are evident. An Ecto/Jordan connection, other than that fact, is desperate fabrication on your part.

[Ectomancer]

Saw you just a few minutes ago Kirby, where'd you go? I was looking for your answer, not Monkey's answer for you. I would also like to hear your thoughts on the case on Monkey. You need to take a stance on it, even if you believe its intention solely to be a defense of Jordan. Also, if you believe Elvis to be misdirecting, what do you think of Monkey's omgus and scum buddy accusations?

[Ectomancer]

Post 88 dismantles your entire case against Jordan, so you fail at using that as an excuse. That was 2 hours before you made that reply, so you chose to ignore it, or defend against the dismantling, likely because trying to argue will just make it that much clearer as to how weakly you were grasping.
In addition, I don't need to show how everything you've written is scummy, just that you are applying inconsistent rules when deciding what you will pursue and what you will not,

and

(more importantly), that how and what you are pursuing is more attributable to a scum motivation than to a town motivation, something you still have not explained to satisfaction and are avoiding with your OMGUS case presented

after

Jordan listed you as suspicious and your sudden OMGUS case on me

after

I voted for you.

As far as the newbie scum argument, I've already presented my case against him, and the combined scumminess of you and him put together strengthens my case.

Listen Slick Willy, you just keep squirming.

This:

What I'm saying(I can't speak for Kirb) is that if Jordan is scum, he may have made a rookie mistake by fingering Kirb and I, two people he knew were town(in a hypothetical Jordan-scum scenario) and that had already voted for him. Furthermore, the undeniable connections between you and Jordan at this point gives the town the possibility to catch two scum right off the bat, wheras the case against Kirb and I is very weak.

Is nothing like this:

That being said, I don't think Jordan has helped his cause since the wagon started. Laying hints to his role in his random vote. Trying to defend future behavior by saying he's a "spammer". Then what I feel is an OMGUS, and (so far) pointing fingers without providing examples. Wagoning is a perfectly valid early game strategy, even without an extensive case, as it can be useful in
provoking reactions and catching scum, but, as said above, I think there are plenty of reasons to be suspicious of Jordan at this point.

You are evolving your story and trying to make it seem as though you are simply expanding on what you said earlier. You aren't. This idea of Jordan being rookie scum too stupid to point out anyone other than town was definitely not put forth by you until just recently. As stated earlier, it can be linked to where Jordan was advised against avoiding his scum partners days prior to this game, so had you put forth this theory back then, it would have been disputed as false.

Now I've lined up your points and knocked them all down. I'd like to see you attempt the same by addressing the points themselves and not complaining about being ganged up on.

[Ectomancer]

Snix, I challenge you to explain the logic that would dictate that a town player ignore a universally confusing statement and in the next moment take a scummy poke at a possible town softclaim. His lack of caution surrounding the softclaim utterly dispels the notion that he is cautious by nature, which is the excuse he gave for ignoring Spring.

I cannot explain another's actions in the least bit. I can only explain how I feel about it, and personally it seems like a null tell. SL had a confusing post about her roll and others had already asked for clarification. The entire town does not need to restate the same obvious thing.

Actually only I had asked anything at that point. Monkey was 3rd to respond after she posted and I expressed disappointment in both Monkey and Kirby at that time.

Now as for my strong logic:

1. You seem intent on monopolising this conversation in a monkey bash that still does not impress me. It has no sure footing and still seems to be grasping at straws.

It certainly does have footing and I will provide you with an example of someone acting in an inconsistent manner very similiar to Monkey. I have caught scum definitively with this particular tell, so here you go:
This is a relevant quote from that game for those who don't feel like digging through another game:

Ectomancer wrote = Still dont believe that Darkdude is scum?
Then tell me why he would discourage discussion about one of our discoveries (the gun inventor), yet encourage discussion about our amnesiac cop. He even goes so far as to ask the recipient of the message to breadcrumb! So you can kill him tonight before he reveals the only result we might have?

Game link: start reading on day 2
viewtopic.php?t=9792&postdays=0&postord ... &start=275

If you don't believe that link and scumtell and successful scum lynch are relevant, let me know so we can debate it. It applies here.

2. You are defending Jordan, no matter how you put it. The fact that you deny it just makes it clearer that there is a connection you don't want seen.

Semantics. Assisting him against the case by Monkey is a by product of calling out a scum.

3. Jordan seemed to shut up after you stated that he made a newb mistake, experienced scum hushing up the less experienced? Could be.

Could be from a perspective other than mine.

Answer me this; Who do you think are Monkey's scum buddies at this point? Do you think Jordan could be scum?

Of interest is Kirby. He also ignored ... ure games.

[Ectomancer]

@Elvis - The thought came to me either last game or the game before. I was under medication and the (not quite) accusation was that I could be exaggerating its effects to benefit myself in the game. I was not, but it lead me to think about how people could manipulate outside variables to their benefit in game. Making it harder for people to build cases against you because your posts are scattered across 2 different accounts and the chronology is intermingled is one that would certainly benefit scum, especially if you miss something because it was on the other account.
I don't think anyone but you thinks this is in any way necessary to the case against Monkey, and you avoided the rest just to talk about this? It disrupts the game, there are scummy purposes for doing it, and if he is town, it needed to be pointed out anyhow. Could you go look at that link, how I caught Darkdude, see what my case is now, and see how they mirror each other? and then chat about it.

(IE Monkey's statement that Jordan saying that monkey is weird is OMGUS when he a. already had a vote on Jordan and b. didn't really push for jordan's lynch anymore than he had.) is a null tell.

Wait, please dont say you think my vote is because Monkey called Jordan's response to my question OMGUS. Seriously, because if you do I'm on the Moon and you are on Mars.

Oh, in all this I actually forgot a valid point. Monkey didnt care about Spring's softclaim, until she said she wouldn't talk about it anymore. Then suddenly he wanted her talking about it again.

[Ectomancer]

Sorry, here's one.

Snix, I challenge you to explain the logic that would dictate that a town player ignore a universally confusing statement and in the next moment take a scummy poke at a possible town softclaim. His lack of caution surrounding the softclaim utterly dispels the notion that he is cautious by nature, which is the excuse he gave for ignoring Spring.

I cannot explain another's actions in the least bit. I can only explain how I feel about it, and personally it seems like a null tell. SL had a confusing post about her roll and others had already asked for clarification. The entire town does not need to restate the same obvious thing.

Actually only I had asked anything at that point. Monkey was 3rd to respond after she posted and I expressed disappointment in both Monkey and Kirby at that time.

Now as for my strong logic:

1. You seem intent on monopolising this conversation in a monkey bash that still does not impress me. It has no sure footing and still seems to be grasping at straws.

It certainly does have footing and I will provide you with an example of someone acting in an inconsistent manner very similiar to Monkey. I have caught scum definitively with this particular tell, so here you go:
This is a relevant quote from that game for those who don't feel like digging through another game:

Ectomancer wrote = Still dont believe that Darkdude is scum?
Then tell me why he would discourage discussion about one of our discoveries (the gun inventor), yet encourage discussion about our amnesiac cop. He even goes so far as to ask the recipient of the message to breadcrumb! So you can kill him tonight before he reveals the only result we might have?

Game link: start reading on day 2
viewtopic.php?t=9792&postdays=0&postord ... &start=275

If you don't believe that link and scumtell and successful scum lynch are relevant, let me know so we can debate it. It applies here.

2. You are defending Jordan, no matter how you put it. The fact that you deny it just makes it clearer that there is a connection you don't want seen.

Semantics. Assisting him against the case by Monkey is a by product of calling out a scum.

3. Jordan seemed to shut up after you stated that he made a newb mistake, experienced scum hushing up the less experienced? Could be.

Could be from a perspective other than mine.

Answer me this; Who do you think are Monkey's scum buddies at this point? Do you think Jordan could be scum?

Of interest is Kirby. He also ignored Spring, but I'm not certain he even read it or realized he might want to respond to it. (Scum with blinders worrying more about their response than what is actually happening in thread). In that post he did a bout of sucking up to me "Ecto's right", with the same assertion that Monkey did (Jordan made a soft claim).
Now it strikes me that I didn't see a softclaim coming from Jordan, but you cant just let a comment about bad luck go by, so you ask. As far as a softclaim goes, what would he be softclaiming? "Oh the bad luck, I got a scum role."? Realize here that scum are still chatting while this is going on. What do you think they would have had to talk about? That's right, a soft claim by Jordan. They would know he isn't claiming scum and would certainly be interested in what he is hinting at. So it is little wonder that Kirby mentioned it and then nobody talked about it, until Monkey breaks it out as a reason for his vote on Jordan. Coincidence?
And then consider after Kirby attempted a light defense of Monkey and the question turned to Kirby, he stopped by this forum, but didn't respond. Perhaps he was late to dinner, or perhaps he just needs more time to think? I didn't take a screenshot, so I have no evidence this occurred, so take that one with a grain of salt. I know though.

Do I think Jordan could be scum? Not likely should Monkey turn up scum. He would have little reason to pursue a softclaim. Speaking of Jordan, a Monkey/Kirby scum pair would actually seem less likely as they were the two he chose as suspects from his wagon and I don't have any particular faith in Jordan's scum hunting ability. Beginner's luck? If he turns up right, I'll give more respect to gut in my future games.

[Ectomancer]

Here's the other

@Elvis - The thought came to me either last game or the game before. I was under medication and the (not quite) accusation was that I could be exaggerating its effects to benefit myself in the game. I was not, but it lead me to think about how people could manipulate outside variables to their benefit in game. Making it harder for people to build cases against you because your posts are scattered across 2 different accounts and the chronology is intermingled is one that would certainly benefit scum, especially if you miss something because it was on the other account.
I don't think anyone but you thinks this is in any way necessary to the case against Monkey, and you avoided the rest just to talk about this? It disrupts the game, there are scummy purposes for doing it, and if he is town, it needed to be pointed out anyhow. Could you go look at that link, how I caught Darkdude, see what my case is now, and see how they mirror each other? and then chat about it.

(IE Monkey's statement that Jordan saying that monkey is weird is OMGUS when he a. already had a vote on Jordan and b. didn't really push for jordan's lynch anymore than he had.) is a null tell.

Wait, please dont say you think my vote is because Monkey called Jordan's response to my question OMGUS. Seriously, because if you do I'm on the Moon and you are on Mars.

Oh, in all this I actually forgot a valid point. Monkey didnt care about Spring's softclaim, until she said she wouldn't talk about it anymore. Then suddenly he wanted her talking about it again.

[Ectomancer]

If Ecto comes up town I wont believe Jordan is scum at this point.

Why exactly would you do that? I've not seen anything Jordan has done to appear town today, and if I don't turn up Mason, how the hell would me being town clear Jordan? The primary method I have of determining that is if Monkey shows up as scum, because I really doubt he would be prodding at a 'softclaim' of a scum buddy.
You really need to keep your scumdar up and

actually pay attention when I say that an attack on Monkey's attack is not a defense of his target!

[Ectomancer]

That is

not

my point, my point is that given your reasoning, you

must

make that assumption in order for it to make sense. If you don't then, regardless of denial of the fact, Ecto's defending Jordan

cannot

, in any way, incriminate him.

In the framework of his argument, I think you are correct, but in general you are not. I've already said that I've seen Jordan posting in MD prior to this game (didnt I?), so once I saw him here, I could have quickly identified him as easily manipulatable and be using a passive defense to bias his emotions favorably towards me. It wouldn't be hard to do and he would of course be the townie that I would attempt to bring along into endgame with me so long as he isn't some annoying role.

So there is a potential scum motivation, but contrary to what is being asserted, it would be more likely to clear Jordan as town than implicate him as a scumbuddy were there to be an Ectoscum. (No, I'm not scum) Annoying to have to make good arguments for people because they can't do it themselves

[Ectomancer]

If you don't think the cases are very strong, why don't you try to find your own scum, rather than lynch those that are willing to put themselves on a limb trying?

Because in relation to anything I've been able to build myself, your case looks very powerful indeed.

If I have a case against someone, I will say so.

Well I tend to agree with Monkey's thought here (even if likely self-serving). A strong case is great, but it doesn't erase even weak ones. Adel likes to have at least 2 competing wagons each day, and I don't think that is a bad idea. Monkey's is good, Jordan's is a non-starter, and mine has votes but no actual case (yes I realize I'm being dismissive).
I'd like to see what else you have, even if weaker in comparison.

[Ectomancer]

Listen to what you're saying there honcho.

After both parties (Jordan-Ecto VS. Monkey) feel they've exhausted the other and are satisfied with the limit of the debate would be the ideal time for me to post my own cases.

I believe that Monkey and myself

are

the parties involved and

we

are asking you for your other cases. I really don't think that you want to attempt to argue that we

haven't

exhausted the argument.

[Ectomancer]

Why would giving scum an opportunity to be at a defined position on a wagon be a bad idea? Still, I don't think that requesting at L-2 is what is scummy. Here's what might be scummy Monkey, you actually were after an L-4 claim. You were appealing to players on one wagon to join another for the sole purpose of forcing a claim. Well, you only had an L-4 case. You need to

build

to an L-2 case to ask for the claim. That's what I think is the issue.

[Ectomancer]

Let's play a game!

If I had a 2nd vote:

It would be on Kirby, regardless of MonkeyMan's alignment.

Your turns!

[Ectomancer]

I'll put you down as 2nd vote on Ecto.

[Ectomancer]

We can argue over the merits of having multiple, independent (not necessarily competing) cases presented if you would like. I dont see you have a winning argument though. Our stream of consciousness isn't a singularity. We can follow more than one idea thread at a time. There is no need to avoid other threads even if we were to already know which we plan to follow to an end today.
I'm also calling you out for hypocrisy for accusations of deflection, and then moving your vote off into a different direction before Monkey gave his claim. What else could both Monkey and I have been deflecting from except a claim from him or a hammer? So why would you assist this apparently suspcious deflection by helping it in a greater manner with the removal of your vote, and then actively postpone a claim by saying you would prefer to wait for more from DDD?

[Ectomancer]

I was kind of on the same boat as Snix, just waiting for someone to do something that I legitimately identify as scummy. Ecto and Monkey are both definitely still on my radar, but I can't pin them down beyond cases that make way too much inference.

This statement is

entirely

inconsistent with your very recent insistence that we stay focused on the Jordan/Ecto vs Monkey situation. If you were waiting for someone to do something scummy, why were you opposed to getting additional cases that would present that opportunity?

[Ectomancer]

/facepalm

[Ectomancer]

The fact that I wanted to stay focused on your cases was because nothing better had presented itself, and switching focuses without a catalyst seemed pointless.

Game at L-1, a case size of maybe 2, 3 if I'm being generous, and roughly 25% of the game has been absent for 90% of the time. Clearly not an optimal town situation for ending the day.
I can only discern one motivation for insisting we keep all talk confined to the case that needs only 1 vote to end the day, and that is to

get that vote

.
I explained that we were not in an optimal situation to end the day, so a rush to do so is more likely to be scum motivated than town motivated.

Have you had an epiphany?

[Ectomancer]

My mistake, L-2.

Question: If you were waiting for more, and Monkey had said he thought L-2 the optimal time to claim, why didn't you ask for it? Why did you unvote after he got to L-1 without asking for it? Is your case on DDD so powerful that it negates the case you voted for against Monkey? If not, why did you drop your pursuit of Monkey's case if you cant pin down either one of us? I base this assertion on the fact that pushing Monkey's wagon to a claim was the next logical progression in that pursuit.

However, looking at this, I think your failure to pursue Monkey to claim is likely town motivated

if Monkey turns up town

. If Monkey turns up scum, I'm going to take this as evidence of a possible scum partner. I don't believe there is a rush to lynch Monkey to test that theory, but I want my opinion on it available. Right now I think I'm going to give you a town lean as your actions individually can be regarded as scummy, but collectively the tells contradict each other.

[Ectomancer]

Cant argue with the assessment or the critiques Elvis. Throwing in the kitchen sink can be a bad idea as it often presents an easy to knockdown strawman. My fault. You'll just have to understand that as I was trying to read Monkey, and found that I had to constantly crosscheck both logins

and making sure I had the chronology correct

, the more he did it, the more it looked like something he may have done by accident originally, but was doing more often (purposefully) rather than trying to correct it. I should have just stated a demand that he stop rather than mention that scummy motivations could certainly apply to those actions.

So we have some ties, here's what I see:

Monkeytown - EL likely town
Monkeyscum - Kirby likely scum - EL likely scum - Here I would likely test the EL alignment first due to the possible tie below.

ELscum - Snix possible scum based upon Elvis spotting a possible scumfluffle between the two.
ELtown - says nothing about Snix

Not a tie, but Kirby could be scum all on his own.

If you missed the argument as to why these ties exist in my head, it was written. If you need help finding them, speak out.

EL - if scum is likely to quickhammer, why wouldn't you hold Monkey at L-1 and let them do it? I'm good with a 1 for 1 trade regardless of role.

[Ectomancer]

Well as a rule I would usually agree with you. I believe that is if you depend solely upon the claim to save the lynch. When you have competing wagons that may in fact be a better lynch come to the fore while pressuring for the claim I think that it could be prudent to weigh our options.
I'm wrapped up in one case strongly, so I always have to account for some bit of negative bias, a lack of objectivity when I gauge the possibility of being right.

Spring is a good mediator. I've played with her before, and she has good judgment. (last game named all 3 scum including myself)
We evidently all consider her to be neutral, or in my case slight town as evidenced by her not being in consideration at all for lynch.

I'm going to

unvote

and back us down from L-1 and listen to what Spring has to say. I already know who I would lynch and Monkey is just one of the available options.

[Ectomancer]

He's subscribing to the "I Agree" portion of this poll. The problem with these polls is they ask these questions in a fishbowl. This is the Ocean and there is more to consider when deciding upon a lynch than their claim. Like the state of the rest of the game for instance.

viewtopic.php?t=2872&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=0

[Ectomancer]

I agree with you. If you are vanilla, dont be pulling a bs claim to be countered. I also know of occasions where I wouldn't divulge my true role even on pain of lynch. This idea that

nobody

should claim vanilla, including vanilla is ridiculous in my estimation.

[Ectomancer]

Answer me this; Who do you think are Monkey's scum buddies at this point? Do you think Jordan could be scum?

Of interest is Kirby. He also ignored ... ure games.

You are absolutely right. That is the clearest cut case of buddying that I've ever seen.

vote ecto

It is simply amazing how you built a case on Kirby all by yourself!

[Ectomancer]

Charter, whenever you are ready to defend your assessment on me, I'll be happy to destroy it.

3 of your *points* against me are scum pair speculation based upon the actions of another player, and that was all by page 3.
1 of your points is against the alt's issue, which has already been discussed ad infinitum and criticized by a number of other players already. I see of all the points that could possibly actually be made against me, you chose the easy strawman and

never

actually addressed the case on Monkey, did you?
Finally, your "Ecto is so scummy" post.

Let's play a game!

If I had a 2nd vote:

It would be on Kirby, regardless of MonkeyMan's alignment.

Your turns!

Let's see, MM is at L-2 and very little in other cases has been made aside from Jordan's (who I know is a big nub). L-1 follows

the very next post

.
I suppose you would like to argue that trying to establish where other players stand than on the main case is scummy?
Oh and hey! It's more buddying with Kirby! I'm sure he appreciates that special brand of loving.

What

really

cracks me up is your almost certain move had I agreed to lynch my second target is that you would have switched from an accusation of buddying to one of bussing. Neat trick. Take my 2nd suspect, accuse me of buddying with them, then vote them after I had removed my vote from Monkey and stated that I was awaiting other assessments before making a decision, when it is almost certainly obvious that Kirby is my man on deck.

Oh, by the way, the

only

time you can vote when someone calls you out on not voting is

after

they said it. So your argument is bunk trash. The only thing you could say there is that by that point in the game I should have placed a vote and not doing so is scummy.
Except I shouldn't and it isn't.

unvote[/i]

[Ectomancer]

I think it's interesting how easily you condemn ML for what seems like simply guilt by association.

Strengthens that ML is your buddy. What is interesting about it? Do you agree with my assessment or not? I don't like how you throw out your opinion on the subject of ML, but don't explain it at all, and ignore everything else I said in my post. Looks like you're just interested in what I have to say about ML.

Caffeine, methamphetamines, whatever it is quit doing it. You don't even remember that you accused

me

of being ML's buddy, not Kirby.

You totally blew through the game, maybe reading, but not putting much real thought into it. Now you can't even keep your accusations you are throwing around straight.

Back up and try again and actually take the time to think about what you are writing about.

[Ectomancer]

whoops bad tag

unvote

[Ectomancer]

Caffeine, methamphetamines, whatever it is quit doing it. You don't even remember that you accused me of being ML's buddy, not Kirby.

Actually, he accused the three of us of being a scum trio.

The only way he makes a 'link' of you being ML's buddy is that after he decided ML and I must be buddies, he didn't like your post, decided that was 3 scum so tossed you in as a scum trio. Never did he make any accusations of buddying between the two of you. No links or accusations whatsover of collaboration at all. The direct accusation of buddying betwen ML and anyone was me. Don't be making excuses when it is clear he isn't even paying attention to his own statements.

[Ectomancer]

Hang on, I just noticed something...

Well if you're being honest about your role that's phenomenal for us. I've really disliked Jordan's attack on MM lately and MM has been calm and rational about the whole deal. I've got a lot of respect for you charter and you raise some really good points about Kirby so...

Unvote; Vote: Kirbyoshi

This, especially the last sentence. Most of charter's case against me is bullcrap, yet you say he "raises really good points". This is more buddying-esque than anything anyone charter accused of it has done, and Monkey's been defending himself well enough recently, so...

Unvote Monkey, Vote: Debonair Danny DiPietro

I'm also interested in what in charter's case he found to be "really good points", though I think there is plenty of case to be made against you.

Monkey, do you find it surprising that charter played up to you so hard in his assessments? Go read back and notice he didn't mention you

once

until he comes out with this "Monkey is obvtown" statement. Where did he come up with this? He never mentioned you or your case up to this time except maybe to reference the case as a means to accuse someone of being scummy.
Now go read his post again and tell me if it looks to you like he went into this with a "Monkey is town" disposition. How would he know your alignment so assuredly that his entire post was centered around the assumption that you are town? You'll notice he did this without providing a single comment in support of this idea, either in support of your comments, or in opposition to the details of the case against you.

[Ectomancer]

Your play HAS been bad. You got yourself run up to L-1 with it. It wasn't because people thought you were town, I can tell you that much.

Holy contradiction Batman! I thought his wagon was scum driven? Now it was town driven?

[Ectomancer]

Ecto, why did you unvote MM? Why aren't you voting right now?

If you read the game, you'll see that I answered both questions. Busy tonight, I'll get around later to what looks like a ton of issues with your posts.

[Ectomancer]

Alright, I'm going to shift gears here. Rather than picking apart Charter's game assessments, I want to examine the ramifications in general of his claim, how it can be proven, and a general town strategy to make use of it. If I have it right, he doesnt have to be smart, just alive if he is telling the truth.

Monkey, you said you had experience with it, so looking to hear you expound on the role in games you've played. The more I put thought to it, the more questions come up, and I think that some of them actually shouldn't be answered if he is town. Realize that this is a better MD discussion simply because of the ever present spectre of manipulating the argument to fit the game. Here's to objectivity.

So, if I understand this correctly, charter is claiming that anyone targeting him will die. If town, that is great for us as he can only die by being lynched. We get one more confirmed townie to endgame and we win. But, first we have to confirm charter's claim.
It seems the only opportunity is for a power role with targeting abilities to target charter and then die. Given charter's ability, for most roles that will be akin to trading a rook to save the queen. My hypothesis is that a power role targeting him and dying would confirm him as town. I cant fathom that scum would have that ability, then claim it for some reverse psychology ploy. It would make more sense for it to be a fake claim to

avoid

being targeted.
Now, of course, we have to confirm that the reason the power role died was indeed because of targeting. That should be a trick with scum having some options to play with it.
If we get 2 deaths, we can mostly assume that is what happened, though if a Vig or SK exists and actually made the 2nd kill, we would have to depend upon them then claiming in order to prevent charter from being wrongly 'confirmed'.
If we get 1 death and it is a power role that already softclaimed, it wont tell us anything. If it is a power role who

hasn't

claimed, I would tend to believe scum didn't kill in order to try to prevent charter from being confirmed.
I really don't like the odds on return should we have a town charter and only 1 death. We would have a dead power role and no information gained.
Now here all kind of WIFOM games could be played to trick scum up or trick ourselves up.
We can instruct our 2 softclaims to cast a random die, something like heads target charter, tails do nothing or target someone else. That accomplishes a few things.
First, they haven't claimed, so we don't know if they can target anyone or not in the first place. This adds to the random factor.
Second, if scum doesnt make a kill, hoping to discredit a confirm of charter if a power role dies, it is possible there will be a no kill.
Third, if charter is scum, he wont know who is doing the targeting in order to kill them to 'confirm' himself.

So...basically the best we can do is get the 2 softclaims to agree to flip a coin and target charter if it comes up heads. Even if you cant do it, and Jordan you better not say whether you can or not...
Then hope we get 2 deaths over the next night or two? The cost if we cant is that we will eventually be forced to decide to lynch charter or give the game over into his hands.
Of course we could end up with 2 PR targeting a town charter and both dying. Still, cant dictate who does it either.

[Ectomancer]

Well there is another softclaim you are overlooking. You are also right, we don't know if they can target or not. Neither does scum. They almost certainly have to kill rather than risk a no kill when possibly nobody could target him even if they wanted to. But it is possible.
I also disagree with your assessment about the worth of a confirmed PGO. They are not simply another townie confirmed. To the mafia, they would become an

unkillable

confirmed townie and that is a far different and much more powerful creature. Now is that not right? Or does a target by mafia become a mutual kill? Even then we would force the mafia to take out one of themselves and if they are the last one they wont have that option even.

Here's the main thing I dislike about not finding a good way to confirm or debunk his claim. Scum dont have to get through endgame alive anymore. They just have to make it

to

endgame with charter alive. I'd prefer to find a way to turn it back on

them

and make them have to figure out how to deal with him, even at the loss of another (hopefully) minor power role.

If there is no way, there is no way but if there are other ideas to bat around, spit them out.

[Ectomancer]

But, put in those terms, if we found a player with a claimed night action that was acceptable to lose, and it meant that a scum had to die to kill the PGO, it would be a good tradeoff. But a competent mafia would probably try to kill the player that was targeting the PGO, so maybe not.

Yeah, that's the key here. We can't know who is going to do it until after it is done. Whoever has a role that might be worth the sacrifice will have to make the personal decision based upon our discussion here.

Sounds like that's about all there is to cover there really...

[Ectomancer]

I agree Monkey's claim was early. I believe it was EL, I'd have to check, but he asked me about the conundrum he thought I was in and wondered whether I still supported a Monkey claim. I expected to be able to comment on it, but just a few posts later Monkey had already claimed. It was unfortunate because my answer would have been much the same as yours, we get a claim when there is nothing left but a lynch. I recall this post here because it felt like a taunt. Clearly EL could tell that I was beginning to lean away from a claim from Monkey.

Criticizing me for putting DDD under suspicion puts you in an interesting position now Ecto, do you intend to derail your wagon that you seem to feel so sure about in order to prevent a roleclaim from Monkey? Does my waffling on the situation make me look like a busser? I especially want to hear from you on this, Elvis.

[Ectomancer]

@ekiM, there pretty much was a consensus that MM would be lynched at that point, at least that is what I thought. Otherwise so many people wouldn't have been voting for him! He was L-1 and I was thinking about voting him. Perfect time to claim.

Also, for the most part, I like Ecto, but I don't like him now saying he was leaning away from getting a claim from Monkey at that point. Since he was hammering away at monkey all day and was still voting monkey, I don't know how anyone was supposed to know he wouldn't have wanted monkey to claim.

Maybe you didn't see it because you weren't personally involved like EL was. What he saw was me suddenly side with my target against him. He felt the psychological shift. You "don't know how anyone was supposed to know", but those are Eldritch Lords words, not mine. I didn't put them into his mouth. What I am confirming is that he was right. I

was

beginning to feel real doubt about Monkey and his question was a very real and pertinent one. Would I still support a Monkey claim after looking at the fact that we already had 2 PR claims (remember my /facepalm?) and he felt my support for a Monkey lynch slipping? You saw the taunt? So he put him at L-1 to put me on the line, only Monkey claimed before I could give input on it.

Listen to what you're saying there honcho.

After both parties (Jordan-Ecto VS. Monkey) feel they've exhausted the other and are satisfied with the limit of the debate would be the ideal time for me to post my own cases.

I believe that Monkey and myself

are

the parties involved and

we

are asking you for your other cases. I really don't think that you want to attempt to argue that we

haven't

exhausted the argument.

[Ectomancer]

No, and the death description sounds like a Bomb, but I dont think our janitor caused that.

Spring was MIA, hard to get much out of that death.

ML was a serious vote on Monkey. I think he was happy with that lynch, just as he was on Kirby. I want even less to lynch Monkey today. A quick iso on ML and I see an uncomfortable amount of negative interaction between he and Snix, but no fos or vote or any real pursuit of Snix that I saw. Possibly distancing, not sure how much credence to lend that idea. Have to look further.

[Ectomancer]

Alrighty, I'm voting Snix.

vote Snix

Here he decides that a Monkey case is headed by ML, backed by Ecto, doesnt like the logic and for no plain reason decides to choose Ecto over ML. Note the already present predisposition that Monkey is town.

FOS: Jordan

He seems to post a lot without much contribution or (in later pages) defense.

He does very little to dissuade the wagon on him but it jumps quickly on to Monkey, headed by Macavitylock and backed up by ecto. Neither of which have very strong logic, soo..

Vote: Ectomancer

Here he is changing his reasons for voting for me from a random choice between two people with not strong logic on a case, to what you see below. Sorry, those 2 reasons aren't even close.

You seem to not understand, I didn't vote Ecto because he defended Jordan. I voted ecto because he denied it.

I didn't vote Ecto because of point 3 either, it was merely something I wanted a response to.

as far as the

quick

turnaround on monkey goes, it was quick... ie spastic. Although more so on ML's part than ecto. Ecto just seemed to be leading it.

Note this bottom part. ML was more responsible in Snix's words for a quick/spastic wagon, but if he was, why didn't ML get the vote and not Ecto? Pointing this out as a lack of a logical explanation for the choice between ML and Ecto.

Here is the interaction between Snix and ML. Notice the line I bolded at the top. Wait a second, didnt he say that ML was the spastic one? Why is he replying to ML saying that Ecto's response was?
How, during all of this, did he magically forget that ML was an integral part of this wagon? Why is he talking to ML as if he is someone not even involved? Did he forget that ML supposedly made the quick spastic move on Monkey?

Wherein has Ecto been grasping at straws? You certainly haven't provided examples as yet.

Alright, let me put it another way: Neither of the sides had much validity, not Monkey's wagon nor Jordan's.

I jumped on Ecto because his turn around on Monkey seemed spastic and uncalled for.

Had I started reading earlier in the day I would have gone after someone else who was on the Jordan wagon. Neither had footing.

What is the purpose of the scumbuddy question at this point? Who couldn't be Monkey's scumbuddy right now? For that matter, the same is true of Jordan and Ecto. Making any sort of argument based on scumbuddies right now is awful.

Ecto was gunning for Monkey and I wanted to know what he expected of day 2 if Monkey's wagon went through.

I don't understand this. How would Jordan have passed under your radar, given that he was the big wagon? How does me and Ecto going after Monkey say

anything

with respect to Jordan? I can't make sense of your second sentence here at all.

I didn't see the sense in his wagon as I stated above. I didn't think he was scum then and

again

still don't, just a newb.

Again, without confirmed scum or confirmed town, I have a hard time seeing how someone's actions can make another person look scummy.

Which is why I'm not voting Jordan. I don't think you guys listen very well.

Your question was "Jordan seemed to shut up after you stated that he made a newb mistake, experienced scum hushing up the less experienced?" I'm not sure what you were expecting Ecto to say here. That is, how else can someone answer that other than with a yes or a no? Seriously loaded question.

I wasn't looking for a yes or a no in particular, just a real response.

[/u]

Jump down to the bottom here for a reminder of him asking loaded questions.

In case I didn't spell it out in black and white, I think that this is a pretty good case for distancing between ML and Snix. Despite having a stated valid reason for voting ML, he didn't. They had interactions to appear on opposite sides of an issue, but somehow ML went from being what looked like a coin flip away from being a vote, to somehow being spoken to as though he were a 3rd party in this.

[Ectomancer]

I feel like Snix isn't scum because he would've jumped on the Monkey wagon when he had a chance (L-1). I agree with Ectomancer in that Monkey is far more likely to be town since ML was riding his wagon so hard, which I can't see as distancing.

Possibly, but I think that would be part of the distancing. I know I've certainly deliberately choose an opposite path than at least 1 of my scum buddies, even when I could have hammered town. It is better to just be patient and make sure that when the town is divided, you and your buddies are in different areas of suspicion.

I think that the strength of your argument is good enough to keep Snix from being lynched on that distancing charge though.

A thought while I'm on Eldritch Lord, I mentioned earlier that if Monkey is town, I EL is likely town. Monkey took a step closer to being town in my book with ML's flip, EL got a similiar boost as a result.

DDD has given reason to be suspicious, but I'm not certain I would call him scummy. Abrupt responses with decisive action isn't always a scum trait. Playstyle can affect it. I haven't meta'd DDD though.

ML's death last night stands out in one regard, in particular when compared with Charter's claim.

So, I said earlier that ML's death reminded me of a bomb. What it

doesn't

remind me of is a Paranoid Gun Owner. Wouldn't the death scene have said he was shot?
Now, I doubt it was scum that blew up ML, and it didn't seem to have an SK flavor either, though maybe it could have.
So, my thought is that ML targeted someone and died, and

it wasn't the claimed PGO.

Scum died, so that explosion likely came from a pro-town player. Does it make sense to have 2 players that can kill scum just by being targeted? Without some kind of mechanism to counter that, I think the very likely answer is no.

You can see where I'm leading to with this:

unvote, vote Charter

One thought: If ML targeted a bomb type role last night, then the rest of scum would likely know who he targeted, meaning there is no reason not to claim?

[Ectomancer]

ML's death last night stands out in one regard, in particular when compared with Charter's claim.

So, I said earlier that ML's death reminded me of a bomb. What it

doesn't

remind me of is a Paranoid Gun Owner. Wouldn't the death scene have said he was shot?
Now, I doubt it was scum that blew up ML, and it didn't seem to have an SK flavor either, though maybe it could have.
So, my thought is that ML targeted someone and died, and

it wasn't the claimed PGO.

Scum died, so that explosion likely came from a pro-town player. Does it make sense to have 2 players that can kill scum just by being targeted? Without some kind of mechanism to counter that, I think the very likely answer is no.

You can see where I'm leading to with this:

unvote, vote Charter

One thought: If ML targeted a bomb type role last night, then the rest of scum would likely know who he targeted, meaning there is no reason not to claim?

Your case on charter sucks, because Crazy Harry flavor would be bomb flavored.

Nice link. I didn't recall his schtick.

unvote

I think we roll with a confirmed Charter from this point.

vote Snix

[Ectomancer]

No, I read it. In my estimation 2 scum lie in the following group:

Snix, Danny, elvis, Jordan.

Your interaction with ML felt like fake bickering. It's enough for now. Show me another case, I'll look at it. Elvis has posted way too much for just that brief sentence and a vote. Make me believe it.

[Ectomancer]

[...]trying to railroad the one player I know is town[...]then I can only consider that egregiously anti-town and respond in the harshest way possible.

Promoting your own towniness, get ready to be railroaded.

I have serious reservations about your "promoting your own towniness" scumtell.

[Ectomancer]

While I'm not sure what to believe, barring sanity issues, scum is in trouble.

Hold on for a counter-claim, then lynch the investigated.

While we don't need to rush to lynch, I don't see much reason to dally either. I'm interested in the lynch today and the nights events to go even a few steps into speculation land.

unvote

[Ectomancer]

I'm just going to assume the rest of town is smart enough to lynch you DDD and you'll flip scum. Given this:

This game may have a PGO, but DDD defends charter's PGO claim which makes me think charter might be an unblockable killer trying to save his position -- still charter hasn't been very off-base so far with his reasoning, even if he did start a mislynch.

I have a question for the town, what if I assume there is a godfather or otherwise unblockable kill, then I'm done for tonight more than likely.

I could investigate charter, if I, too, explode in a similar fashion then you could consider charter's claim viable. This would be a situation of whose action comes first, the NK or the Investigation.

Or I could just investigate Elvis and hope I don't die but some god-given miracle in the night.

Investigation comes first. I think you targeting Charter is a fantastic idea.

[Ectomancer]

EBWOP: depending upon DDD's alignment.

DDD, none of your arguments overweigh the basic mafia situation we have, which is a claimed guilty on you. We lynch you and base what we do next upon your alignment. Flavor arguments and holding people to previous assessments, especially when you weren't all that town looking in the first place is just grasping at thin air.

Charter, I find it ironic for you to claim PGO and then question what other roles could be in this game, mini or not.

vote Danny

[Ectomancer]

You're an SK charter, give it up. The PGO claim was to avoid an investigation that would reveal a guilty.

I agree that there is no need to bother with an investigation on you now though.

I believe we still lynch scum when there could be 2 remaining. In fact, if Danny doesnt have investigation immunity, scum would be so weak as to demand another scum.

[Ectomancer]

In case you hadn't noticed, Jordan is still alive and alignment unrevealed. You should establish him as scum before voting me for being his buddy don't you think?
Charter 'fingered' me because I made a call I stand behind regardless of his alignment reveal. He wasn't strange, he was stupid for making a fake claim that the only purpose would be to avoid an investigation. Flat out, it was the worst play as vigiliante I've seen. All he did was confirm himself as an SK.

I believe we are in a No Lynch situation.

[Ectomancer]

A No Lynch is simple math.

Right now we have likely 4 town 2 scum. We hit town and scum kill tonight and we lose. Chance of us hitting scum is 1/3 - 33%
We know charter was indeed a compulsive vig and is now dead, so little worries of a 2nd night kill. No lynch, scum kills tonight and we have 3 town 2 scum. Chance of hitting scum is now 40% based upon raw numbers alone.

Elvis, I also mentioned sanity. That PGO claim opened a can of possibility. I don't now know whether the issue was sanity or some kind of redirect of the investigation, because DDD wasnt some kind of miller watcher.

I think we see who isn't here before following down too many roads of speculation. In fact, I think this is one time when we keep our opinions to ourselves. No sense in letting scum decide which opinion set suits them best to keep around.

vote No Lynch

I'm prepared for calls fo scum by calling for an end to conversation, just be prepared to explain why my statement above isn't the best path. Numbers call for No Lynch, and though more information for town is generally good, in this case it is scum that is about to have to make a decision on imperfect information. We shouldnt make it easier.

[Ectomancer]

Hold on there honcho, before you start smack talking Snix over claims, let's take a look at Monkey. I forgot to ask this in a previous post. How the hell do you get to where we've

ever

needed a claim from me, and how would my lack of one disqualify me from calling for a no lynch?

I don't like no-lynches, especially when someone who hasn't claimed calls for one.

The call for a no lynch seems very self serving coming from Ecto, although I agree Snix is worth looking at.

Who is pushing for claims here?

[Ectomancer]

Ok, I can't help it.

Pro-town - No Lynch in order to mathematically improve odds. In hand with this goes a no information clause.

Monkey is opposed to a No Lynch, despite a valid logical and mathematically provable case for it.

Pro-town - Deciding to use 4 town voices against 2 scum, rather than 3 vs 2 tomorrow. Decision must be made correctly or we lose. All possible information must be divulged today and now, including a mass claim.

Despite being against a No Lynch that would improve town's odds, Monkey is also against divulging all information in order to improve our odds of making a good decision.

In other words, Monkey is siding with the best scum scenario.

Snix on the other hand, is trying to both support a No Lynch

and

get a mass claim going.

You two are being seriously anti-town. You need to shape up and be seriously awesome instead. Just vote No Lynch and stop chattering.

[Ectomancer]

You dont get it. There are two choices, period.

We lynch scum today or we lose. That means we spill all the beans because the whole game rides on our successful lynch.

We improve our odds by postponing LYLO until tomorrow when we have a 40% instead of a 33% chance of hitting scum. In that case, we give scum no additional information to work with when deciding who they remove from the equation.

Until that decision is made, we do

nothing

. So decide. I went with No Lynch. When you make up your mind vote Lynch, or vote No Lynch. Whichever gets 4 votes is win. If it is 3 to 3, we can do a /random 1 2 where 1 is lynch and 2 is no lynch.

If we decide to lynch, we can argue over mass claims, etc when that time comes.

[Ectomancer]

Also, in fairness, the raw odds are better at lynching scum tomorrow, though in practice, there are 4 town voices and 2 scum voices today, where tomorrow it will be 3 and 2.

[Ectomancer]

So do you two plan to wait until Jordan gets here so you can at best get a /random roll, or are you going to move the game along and vote No Lynch?

[Ectomancer]

Im getting really pissed at Jordan. He last posted here on Thursday, but posted elsewhere onsite Friday and today, but hasn't made an appearance despite being prodded?
I cant express how much I detest an ass dragging game that I have to keep checking back on only to find the same state.

I'm 2 hours from claiming and voting ~Jordan'. I'm not going to force Zorblag to replace him or

me

when the game should be wrapping up instead of waiting on somebody to drag their ass into the thread.

[Ectomancer]

I'll see if I can give a "through Ecto's eyes" summary later. Work only gives me enough time for quick replies.
Basically the thread is quiet because we are at a decision point of whether to No Lynch or not and you are the final vote to be cast.

[Ectomancer]

Mass claim and get this over with?

[Ectomancer]

Kiku already said she has no time.

Ekim is right.

No lynch today, mass claiming tomorrow. It's pretty basic Mafia logic. There are six of us, so we have a roughly 33% chance of finding scum. If we don't lynch then tomorrow we will have a roughly 40% chance. And we shouldn't be talking about anything else today if that's what we're doing, because we don't want to help scum find the best night kill.

Kiku, Monkey is flailing around right now because he knows he is the only one remaining with a good case against them. He pre-emptively voted me first because I was the one who drove that wagon, and I'm certain he expected me to go back to it. The no lynch looks stronger than a Snix lynch, so he is going after another target (or two) to see if anything sticks. Heh, he didn't even look it up to see what it was, just "I know there was a case" where Jordan was concerned. Well the case was Jordan made some pre-game chatter and it went from there. There is no case against me and Monkey has made no effort to make one, but needed to go on the offensive against me so is "having problems with" basic mafia theory.

I don't care if Monkey is town at this point. The game he is playing is one of self-preservation and it is perfectly obvious that he is willing to lynch someone

without bothering to look at cases

. He just wants someone lynched, and he

refuses

to explain why he is opposed to either one of the 2 pro-town options we have today (no lynch and say nothing, or mass claim and gamble on our lynch today)

Alrighty then. Lynch me or Monkey today, one or the other. (or the 4 of you can no lynch) I'm sure a case can be fabricated against me so you can argue over the merits of either. Have fun.

unvote, vote Monkey

[Ectomancer]

There's no false dilemma. You can lynch one of us or you can No Lynch. Takes 4 votes to lynch and since you 4 cant possibly get 4 votes on yourselves without self-voting you see that you cant lynch yourselves, so you are forced to either vote No Lynch and see who is left tomorrow as I suggested you do without conversation, or choose sides. I have no need of a mass claim to know I am going to vote Monkey.

No lynch should have occurred without conversation. You should have read the game and then decided No lynch or not. The case was already laid out for a No lynch, and as Ekim has stated, its basic mafia theory. Instead, you engaged with Monkey and are asking for answers to more questions. Monkey has postured up, despite being told repeatedly that stating positions like that can only help scum make their NK decision. Combined with a day 1 case that still is worth lynching over, his moves today did not begin with objectivity, a time to look at what has happened and what we need to do. He's also ignored any rational, logical explanations as to why what we are saying is the best move. His comments have steadfastly been the bullshit "I dont like it". So, I too am posturing as I feel rather confident (and also dont particularly care as long as this has gone on if Im wrong).

So, lynch Monkey, lynch me, or do as I actually suggest you do, and vote Lynch along with Elvis and end this day right now.

[Ectomancer]

EBWOP: vote NO LYNCH along with Elvis, Ekim, and Snix.

[Ectomancer]

unvote, vote No Lynch

[Ectomancer]

Vote: Elvis_knits

I'm a roll blocker, I blocked Elvis, there was no night kill. Anyone else see what I'm getting at?

Two things:

1: It's LYLO and no reason this couldn't be a gambit.
2: Scum can do math too and likely decided not to oblige with an NK to narrow the field.

What that means is that you are either pulling a gambit, or if you are a roleblocker, it doesnt mean Elvis is guilty because it makes just as much sense for scum to no kill.

Once again Monkey is making no effort, at all. This is pretty easy to reason out, and he didn't even bother trying before throwing down a vote in LYLO.

Snix can reason out the same thing, but I see no reason why he should hide this information if indeed a roleblocker. No reason not to try the gambit as tomorrow is LYLO also even if we guess right today. His lack of a vote following his pronouncement was a plus, but my feeling is that a scumSnix would also be cautious with that vote. Neutral on Snix's opening play today.

[Ectomancer]

Gah, I just woke up. Snix did vote, Elvis is now at L-1.

[Ectomancer]

Whew, I really did just wake up. He's at L-2...

[Ectomancer]

Happy Scumday! That's 28 in Dog years!

I think it's mass claim time. I have no desire to No Lynch again, and to be honest I'm thinking it was less of a good idea than perhaps I thought, though it almost certainly was the entire catalyst for this Snix claim.

Quick show of hands and then let's do it. I call for full reveal, name, role, and any actions for all nights. I'd like Snix to finish last though. In this case, if he is town it is more advantageous for us to leave him till then. If scum I don't think there is a lot more damage he could do from there. Other than that, the claim order can be random.

[Ectomancer]

I'd prefer if you were worth a bear squat in the woods. You voted me twice...remember? I don't need to see the result of that. I already know what it would be. Even if you are town and happen to place a vote on scum at some point, you certainly wont accomplish it through any actual effort on your part.

How about some real analyzing and work from you?

Thank you.

[Ectomancer]

Click here. It's for you. http://www.suvi.org/funstuff/slapit.html

We vote Elvis and he's town we lose. There wont BE a chance to vote Snix for lying, and this has already been pointed out to you. What exactly is your problem? How about actually putting some THOUGHT to the game? If you can't be bothered, ask for a replacement.

Here's the math for today:

4 town - 2 scum
Lynch town today that leaves 3 town - 2 scum, NK tonight and game is over. Town loses.


The optimal play today would be to lynch neither Elvis nor Snix and hit the 3rd mafia member. If Elvis is scum, Snix will block him. if Snix is scum, he cant kill without clearing Elvis. We hit scum today, we will not be in LYLO tomorrow if Snix or Elvis is the other scum, and so will be able afforded the opportunity to try them both if necessary.
Now, if

neither

Elvis or Snix is scum, then we go from a 33% chance of hitting scum to a 50% chance (or in my and one other case a 66% chance).


So Snix and Elvis are safe from lynch possibility today in my book. Any disagreements? You better back it with logic and not Monkey's usual "I don't like it".

That leaves us:

Ectomancer
Monkey
Jordan/Kiku
Ekim

I don't need a re-read to know why Monkey is a good lynch.
I need to do some meta-work on Jordan. He's not a bad lynch.
I need to read Ekim. My general impression has been town who could be lurkish scum.

Oh yes, mass claim. We need to get it done too.

I'm Sweetums. A loveable, scary, yet vanilla ex-car jack.

[Ectomancer]

If Elvis is scum, Snix will block him.

I don't think I missed anything in the Snix/Elvis option, but poke holes if they are there.

You're right, sound mafia skills don't mean anything. You have to look to motivation and actions during periods of opportunity.

[Ectomancer]

Kiku and Ekim, if you would claim please.

[Ectomancer]

Alrighty Snix, full reveal of who you targeted, etc.

[Ectomancer]

C'mon. Got stuff to say but would like to wrap up this section before moving on to the next.

[Ectomancer]

Confirmed Vig to account for extra kills and standard balance would call for 2 scum left. I don't know if EL thought he was so smart he faked a guilty on DDD, I don't know him well enough. I didnt see anything about sanity either (though not sure if we would know until after game). Thing is, I still don't know what scum role could be responsible for a cop getting a false guilty, unless they can do some kind of redirect and gambled that EL would investigate town. Even though I cant imagine what it might be, it is almost certain that scum has 2 power roles, 1 likely a godfather to counter the cop, and then...a redirector to counter the roleblocker/watcher? And what exactly was the town janitor? That would make 5 town power roles. Quite a lot, but could be explained with some missing scum roles, and the fact that a compulsive Vig is neither plus town, nor plus scum. It's just swingy. I also don't know what a town janitor could be, and might not be exactly a pro-town role either if it blocks reveals. We could simply have been lucky the janitor died night 1. Beginning to ramble a bit here...

Ok, going to go through and look at some things. There is one very obvious issue with the claims, but I already noticed it earlier, and already evaluated and know what I intend to do there. Anyone else know what it is?

[Ectomancer]

Don't everyone speak at once. Mass claim and all is done, and don't be waiting around to see what I have to say about the rest of the things I'm going to look at. It's do or die now.

[Ectomancer]

Alright, I've made my preliminary choice of who to lynch and also reasons why I decided against the other two.

If you disagree with not lynching Snix and Elvis, please speak out. My opinion on this is that Snix is not playing a gambit, asking us to lynch Elvis and hoping we lynch neither. If you believe there are only 3 scum in a 12 player game (as I do), then you can see that I would not be involved in the gambit myself except unwittingly, and I cannot believe at all that Snix would have expected me to call to spare them both. I think I already pointed out the statistical advantages to sparing them as well.

[Ectomancer]

At this point, I don't favor lynching ecto. That seems like the worst thing we could do, and I don't know why monkey suggests it.

I can make an educated guess as to why you would say this, but could you spell it out? I don't see how lynching me could be the

worst

thing you could do from any point of view that isn't my own.

[Ectomancer]

The reason is you seem the least like scum to me.

I'm trying to think of the possible scenarios. Let's say snix is scum and you and him cooked up this little gambit. You would obviously support him in trying to lynch me (sort of like how monkey is acting). Or you could go for the buss and try to get him lynched. But you don't want to lynch either of us, which seems like it is not helpful to you if you're scum.

Let's say snix is town and you're scum who sent in a no-kill last night. Which gives a sort of false positive to snix. Well, if you're scum this is your dream scenario, this is what you would have been hoping for, and you definitely support snix and try to lynch me (again, like monkey is doing). But you're not trying to lynch me, so this scenario isn't true.

So whether or not snix is scum, you're not acting like scum would act in any scenario I can think of.

On the other hand, whether snix is scum or not, monkey

is

acting the part of scum.

Holy crap someone is using reasoning

[Ectomancer]

You are definitely clueless. You can believe Snix is a roleblocker and blocked Elvis last night and it still does not make Elvis scum.

[Ectomancer]

It's ok, I'm not worried about it. I know why Jordan likely did it, I'll find a link later. Unvote Snix though. I explained why. Monkey is our lynch today methinks. let's just chat a bit first though.

[Ectomancer]

I was thinking that it had to do with this thread:

viewtopic.php?t=2872

but I think he was subscribing to the idea that as vanilla you should always claim a power role. Not certain that is the right thread. I read quite a bit of Jordan in MD in the weeks prior to this game.

[Ectomancer]

...and we see Snix begin to break down.

With his buddy Monkey headed to the lynch today, and himself caught in the logic puzzle we will have the liberty to lynch both himself and Elvis, he can't possibly agree to it.

Monkey, however this turns out, you should study this game because many of the things we said here will help you improve your play.

[Ectomancer]

Kiku you will have to unvote at some point. It will take 4 votes to lynch and we can be certain that we will not get Snix's vote on his partner. It is clear he doesnt want it to be Monkey.

What do you mean "issue surrounding EL"? You mean the false guilty on DDD? That is why I think there is a redirector or framer or something on the mafia side. I didnt see sanity issues listed and DDD was a watcher, not miller.

[Ectomancer]

I get the feeling that you haven't finished reading yet. It doesnt matter if Snix or Elvis is scum today because they are trapped in a bubble we can pop tomorrow so long as we choose correctly between 4 of us today (Ecto, Kiku, Ekim, Monkey).

My assessment of you is through my assessment of your predecessor's play.
Ekim is not outstandingly town, but has done some good things and nothing bad that I see.
Monkey has reason upon reason to lynch him. As in, I can't not lynch him today. I'm 90-95% convinced I'm right.

Also, here the url again for why we don't lynch Elvis or Snix today

viewtopic.php?p=1911387#1911387

If you want, we can go even further into why, even if there is a redirector.

Now I do think Snix is likely scum, but we still play it safe.

[Ectomancer]

Alright. Ekim, my hats off to you if scum, but then again, I don't see what you could have done to make you a better lynch than Monkey. My hope and bet is that we see us all back tomorrow morning.

vote Monkey

I still think I'm right about Jordan (now Kiku) too. He is still on site playing, and though it could be argued he was getting caught out as scum and bailed, I think it more likely that he was trying to follow all the townie rules he knew of and still looked bad. Rather than be the cause of a town loss, he let someone else try to salvage it.
Either way, I'm disappointed. You shouldn't quit even if you know you lost. (barring emergencies)

[Ectomancer]

So, nobody finds it suspicious that Jordan claimed not vanilla?

Unvote

I want Ekim and Elvis to post thoughts.

Look, I know you had a lot of reading to do to catch up, but try to retain it.

Apparently my player slot is corrupted. The only reason I would think Jordan would say "I'm not vanilla" would be to draw an nk. Kind of odd, but it leaves me a bit fucked.

I actually think I know why jordan did that.

You want the mafia to overestimate you as much as possible, especially if ur vanilla.

I was thinking that it had to do with this thread:

viewtopic.php?t=2872

but I think he was subscribing to the idea that as vanilla you should always claim a power role. Not certain that is the right thread. I read quite a bit of Jordan in MD in the weeks prior to this game.

[Ectomancer]

Heh, you are convinced that Elvis is scum because there was no kill and you role...woops no you lied...

Monkey and Snix are our two remaining scum Kiku.

[Ectomancer]

Stop it, stop it NOW.

It doesn't fucking matter if Snix is scum

today

. Elvis and Snix are

trapped

and I'll resign from the site if both of them are scum.

From what I vaguely recall, though I've never seen it, a prostitute is a form of roleblocker.

The Roleblocker can exist with either a pro-Town or anti-Town alignment (this one known as Mafia Roleblocker or Prostitute).

Now the wiki says it is likely anti-town aligned. Wiki isn't God or Mod and so that isn't written in stone and I'm not guessing whether Zorblag

unvote

Now if I understand Snix correctly, He is a bit of a snitch, because he knows the

role

names of his targets, but not which players have that name.
Now, I don't know if scum would have gotten a hint about Snix's role or not, but possibly. That would explain why Snix would need a valid fake claim name.
Now, Snix's role is a bit of a flavor cop, so long as he can get another member of Electric Mayhem to say their flavor name. That also explains why he would try to instigate an undercover mass claim like that.

[Ectomancer]

Actually it does matter if Snix is scum or not. If he were, Monkey's vote would be bussing (or Monkey isn't scum). I didn't think he would be bussing, even as a gambit at this point. They couldn't allow either one of them to be lynched and I can't believe that Monkey would think that being on a scum lynch wagon would prevent him from being lynched too.

I don't think I have to worry about that though. I believe Snix. That means Monkey isn't bussing, and would absolutely go flying onto a LAL bandwagon on him.

Now get this very clear Snix, go back and read what I already said and pay very close attention.

This doesn't mean Elvis is scum

. He could be, yes, but he isn't

verified

scum.

Still going to stir this pot for awhile, it's coming to a good simmer. Our group of focus still needs to be Ecto, Monkey, Kiku, and Ekim.

[Ectomancer]

Ecto, I really think snix is scum though.

I did too.

[Ectomancer]

I'm at a regional orchestral tryout with my son and on my G1 so I'm going to wait until I have a full keyboard and more ease sorting through the the thread and posts. I know I addressed both questions to me, but can elaborate or simplify or explain leaps of logic that may be obvious to me, but not to you.

A general answer is this: people acting scummy are suspicious unless you can find a town motivated reason for what they've done. Snix's play, if a scum gambit is elaborate and his recent claim really does explain almost every scummy point in Snix play.

[Ectomancer]

Hmm. So Monkey didn't bite on a reason to believe Snix is telling the truth.

Ok. So Snix, can you explain how you got 2 pro-town power roles? You can roleblock. That's one. You also know the flavor names of every scumbag in game, so if they claimed, you would know which players are scum. Makes you a type of Cop. That's two roles now, all wrapped up into 1 player and we already have 4 dead town power roles.

[Ectomancer]

I find it very hard to believe that a pro-town role would know how many scum they are. That is a traditional scum trait.

I bet I've reckoned correctly how many scum are in a game by time it was half over in at least 95% of my games as town.


Kiku, I'm not trying to rag on you, just thinking you would have retained that since it happened recently and involved your statements and those were the responses to them.

[Ectomancer]

Time for me to mull things over.

Here's one thing I'm operating under as a given. Let me here your opinions on it.

Snix and Elvis are not scum partners. If they are not, then saving them to deal with until tomorrow will not cause us to lose the game today.

Hmm. I wrote earlier that it would work out great for us if both town. But. If it works out even, 1 scum and 1 town, then saving them actually makes it

harder

for me to choose scum today. I have a 2 of 5 chance (40%) just randomly picking between the 5 of you. If I take out 1 scum and 1 town, then I only have a 1 in 3 chance (33%) of nailing the remaining scum (that's void of any evidence, which we do have, but Im just doing raw numbers)

So. Conversely, if we do have 1 scum and 1 town in the Snix/Elvis pair, then raw numbers say we have a 50% chance of hitting scum. That my friends is

only

if we know scum is in there, which isn't a given at all, and we lose automatically if both are town.

And I think I've convinced myself that I can't game the situation to our advantage like I wanted. You lynch scum. That's the bottom line. I already know who I think those 2 players are, but I was surprised when I tossed one a lifeline with reasoning (or at least more reasoning than Monkey ever needs) and the other didn't grab hold and help me pull.

[Ectomancer]

I find it very hard to believe that a pro-town role would know how many scum they are. That is a traditional scum trait.

I bet I've reckoned correctly how many scum are in a game by time it was half over in at least 95% of my games as town.


Kiku, I'm not trying to rag on you, just thinking you would have retained that since it happened recently and involved your statements and those were the responses to them.

Yeah, but he is saying it was in his role pm, which I find hard to believe in a townie.

Ok. Which is why I'm now saying he is claiming a double role. Roleblocker and flavor cop.


Snix, make another try at convincing me.

[Ectomancer]

Yes, I'm a leader, not so much a follower.

Snix, the problem is that you are telling 2 stories. The flavor would hold in either one of them singly, but combined it is very unbelievable. You know who scum is, so you went into hiding. If you find out which player has their names, you can reveal them as scum and get them lynched. Is that right?
But wait, you're a prostitute and can target individuals to roleblock also? Not very hidey if you get my drift. The reason they are roleblocked is that they presumably are being prostitutinated.
And that is 2 roles in one.

You're going to have to tie that together.

[Ectomancer]

I still don't understand why snix would need to lie and say he was Hilda.

If telling the truth, it makes sense in conjunction with his Electric Mayhem story.

If lying, its because he couldn't explain Hilda as a roleblocker, came up with the better claim and story, but got caught up in the better story and didnt realize it messed up his earlier roleblocker claim.

[Ectomancer]

Alrighty, here's what you need to do Snix, please. Come as close to quoting your mod PM as you possibly can without getting modkilled. If there are 10 sentences, I want 10 paraphrased sentences somehow.

[Ectomancer]

I still don't understand why snix would need to lie and say he was Hilda.

If telling the truth, it makes sense in conjunction with his Electric Mayhem story.

If lying, its because he couldn't explain Hilda as a roleblocker, came up with the better claim and story, but got caught up in the better story and didnt realize it messed up his earlier roleblocker claim.

Hmm I see. He really is Janice. Zorblag gave safe claims to all members of the band. Zorblag really did give him the name Hilda too. He just didn't think about flavor when he gave his fake roleblock claim to cover being out at night redirecting or bus driving or whatever role he has in case of a tracker or something. Or maybe he is actually Janice the prostitute (scum roleblocker) to counter the watcher/cop/vig. Either way, when we matched up Janice to the dead Floyd Pepper as the scum group that wants to change the format of the show, he had to have a good reason he wasn't associated with the group and came up with the "I'm hiding because I know their names" story. I also don't think he was trying to induce a mass claim (which is pretty funny because of the flak he got doing it). I think he was simply consumed with the thought of needing to put distance between himself and the revealed name of the dead scum.

Ok, now that's a good story. I'm happy with it. That fake claim really was nagging me. I didn't even pay attention to the fact that ML was Floyd and Floyd was in Electric Mayhem and that I should keep an eye out for other members of the group. Golden rule is lynch scum.

vote Snix

[Ectomancer]

If I die tonight, right now I think that Elvis and Monkey are cleared town.

[Ectomancer]

If I die tonight, right now I think that Elvis and Monkey are cleared town.

Yeah, and when I die today it's game over.

I don't get your previous post, you quote yourself seeming to take that as some sort of revelation. What did you suddenly see that made it so clear to you that I was scum? A few hours earlier you wanted me to pretty much quote my role PM. What made you change your mind? Was it the wait, because sorry I have a job. You were with me until then, you of all the town believed me. What happened? What suddenly changed our mind?

It's called an epiphany. Two things, one is that the first time I missed the fact that you were really claiming 2 roles. I'd like to say that I was trying to tempt Monkey on purpose into jumping on to that reason to defend you, but I wasn't. As I kept re-reading and analyzing and trying to work out your claim, I realized you had actually claimed 2 roles, meaning you're very likely scum (and I was wrong). That was the point that I noticed that Monkey didn't jump on to that defense of you, something that I figured a scum buddy would have done in that situation.
The 2nd lingering issue was that I wanted your paraphrase to try to tie up the one loose end in my head, which was why you fake claimed. I didn't understand that. I don't like not being able to explain everything, as it could be the reason for a wrong decision.
But I didn't need it. I was going over voting records, trying to analyze, and also going over your statements, as well as who died when, etc. What happened to make you do that when you did? It was kind of out of the blue. That's when re-reading you provided me the answer. Electric Mayhem and the band members. ML turned up as one. I didn't catch that flavor as significant, and after you named the band I hadn't expected anyone to have claimed to be them anyhow. But then I saw the correlation between your claim, ML's death, and your mysterious job at fake claiming your name. The events all lined up with every one of your actions linked up to a scummy motivations.
No more loose ends. Nice try though, if you hadn't made that first fake claim then your 2nd would have had me on your side because the 2nd was great. I think you got too concerned with explaining being out at night and basically shot yourself in the foot by accident. Your better bet would have been to invent some story about the seamstress getting people trapped in her ball of yarn or something, rather than trying to reconstruct your fake claim in its entirety.

[Ectomancer]

Congrats on the win scum. I don't think you had to work very hard though.

Vig claims a role designed to discourage investigation and gets caught lying.
Paranoid cop targets town, so we lose 2 town in the "lynch the target, then lynch the liar" strategy when a cop claims a guilty and since the vig clears up the cop at night, and already outed himself, scum just has to take out the vig. Nice bundle there.
Janice as a prostitute was fine, but then the whole body swapping thing and an absence of a role cop to find the real names of players and it over complicated the PM, and as a result, the claim itself. Snix also stuck to the idea that roleblocking Elvis proved scum after no NK after a No Lynch which of course it doesn't. Elvis actually turning up scum doesn't mean that the logic was flawed, and continuing to stick to it means someone is deliberate in sticking with a flawed conclusion, and must have an ulterior motive for doing it.
Of course, even without that I would have lynched Monkey. Is there any town member who wouldn't?

I spent a large portion of the game leading the charge, so I share blame in the loss myself, and in no less proportion than some. (No really Monkey, you need to change your playstyle)

Looking at it, I don't see that I would have changed my play or what I did. I followed a course of action with the information we had at hand, the town believed I was town, and I was not overly hasty in taking action, thinking things over as much as it needed without over analyzing myself into paralyzing inaction. Sometimes you do what you are supposed to and you still lose and that's just the way things go.

Zorblag, if I were to make a suggestion as to an alteration in the setup, drop the paranoid cop for another vanilla.

[Ectomancer]

Flat out, it was the worst play as vigiliante I've seen. All he did was confirm himself as an SK.

Yeah, pretty sure you're wrong here. Would have vigged two scum easily if we didn't have a paranoid cop claim. Glad that you caught a whopping zero scumbags, great job!

No. Flat out the worst Vig play I've seen. You actually would have been better off claiming SK.
I have no problem with being wrong when you yourself had this to say about it.

Pretty pissed at myself for my play this game. I was really, really sure we would have this game done by day three when I replaced in. That's why I claimed PGO, one of the best town power roles there is is vig, and I didn't want getting touched. That was dumb of me, not going to do that again.

Your final comment is just intended to be petty and spiteful. It's ok. I don't think enough of you for it to bother me any.

[Ectomancer]

All that I can say to you who are disgruntled and wish to point out where you were omnipotent and I was not, is that you were in the same game I was with the same town players. Speculation during the game and finding that after the fact you were correct on a point or two translates to two things. Jack and squat.
If you had believed your points so vehemently, then argue them, vehemently.
I had no special status in this game. Abilities aplenty lay in other hands. You have opportunity just as I have to make your opinions known and argue for them. If you believe that the leader of the town was inept, then I can only offer that perhaps it was your own fault for following.

Charter, I do applaud your night 1 choice, and also admire that you too can hold back from eliminating someone from the game simply because you do not want to deal with them. I suffered through GoatRevolt the entire game my last game with him though I was also Vigilante.

[Ectomancer]

You say that based upon your own opinion of what to do as scum in that situation (and did). Others differ, both from a numerical standpoint, as well as a "Ectomancer's such a know-it-all shithead, how's this No Kill sit with your No Lynch asshole?" standpoint. So the probability was 50/50, not a higher chance at all. Snix also had damaged credibility, both with the convoluted name claim/roleclaim and the still baffling refusal to engage in a logical breakdown of the situation. In that case, you acknowledge the possibilities and if he believed Elvis really was scum, he should have gone back and built an entire case to back his assumptions instead of leaving me to believe he was trying to base it soley off a flawed idea that the only thing that could have happened was he blocked the kill. The fact that he did is fundamentally irrelevant to the game at that particular time in it.

I know Snix, you'll take that personally. It's not meant to be. That's the assessment I had and the basis for my decision.

Still, even had we lynched you elvis, Ekim doesn't get lynched for being lurker scum.

Good game

[Ectomancer]

I think that we had 2 issues with town fake role/flavor claims and both of those claims were unsolicited and gambits. In reflection I don't blaim you for trying it, it makes the game fun and interesting for you. It is something I might have tried a year or 2 ago. Not so much now, because they cause problems like the ones we got.

Ekim, I only play one game at a time now. It tends to make me focus and drive a game forward. I like the faster pace too, and my thoughts are more gathered. I didn't like the result this time, but I liked my pacing and thought processes. In regards to you, I'll remember to drag along through the muck to see if any sticks