Mini 848 - Second String Muppets Mafia - Game Over.

[elvis_knits]

Woo!

[elvis_knits]

vote ectomancer

for not using his vote yet.

---

I don't think jordan's vote on ecto was bad, which seems the original thing people jumped on, but some of the things he's said since need clarifying for me.

Furthermore, the bad luck thing was out of context and was about something out of thread.

What was it about? And why would you tell us if it had nothing to do with the game?

I'm a habitual spammer...

It looks like you just joined MS... so how are you a habitual anything? Are you an alt?

Also, what don't you like about kirbyoshi?

---

I'm not sure what is going on with springlullaby. I took PR to mean post restriction in this context. But I guess I will wait for confirmation about that. Not sure what to say about whether she should use the PR to get protown effects or not, since we won't know what she's talking about. I guess we have to leave that up to her. I've seen PR's be real and be faked. My hope is that if it is faked we will be able to notice an inconsistency or something somewhere along the way.

[elvis_knits]

Kirbyoshi, where is the misdirection?

I don't really think Jordan or SL are scum, so that's why I didn't vote them. I voted ecto because he was present and active in the game without using his vote. That's like shooting blanks. It makes me think his scum hunting is insincere.

I don't think there is anything wrong with jordan's vote on ecto, which was what most people voted jordan for. But I was confused as to a few things Jordan said. The "I have bad luck" thing. I find it hard to believe it had nothing to do with the game.

And the SL stuff needed to be addressed, even though it wasn't part a case/attack.

[elvis_knits]

Voting monkeyman for posting under an alt is RIDICULOUS.

I had to retire my alt because I sucked at remembering who I was logged in as, and I even put my alt on the mafurtigers skin. And I still made mistakes. To suggest that someone would deliberately post as an alt to avoid detection is ridiculous. You'd have to think that we're too stupid to figure out who the alt is (when he told us who he was, and both screennames have monkey in them!), or that we'll forget, or that monkeyman was saying something so inflamatory that he didn't want it picked up with the rest of his posts in a later iso read. It's just so... how shall I say this... RIDICULOUS.

Ecto and eldritch... have you ever seen someone do that? Post under an alt with some dastradly purpose? If so, let me know where. If I'm wrong, I'm happy to learn something new.

[elvis_knits]

So much has happened! I will read now and give thoughts.

[elvis_knits]

Bah, I decided I had to read from the beginning because this monkeyman business is complicated and there seems to be good and bad arguments on both sides. At the time I last posted I didn't want to deal with sorting through everything... but I took my time this morning to go over the whole game.

Here are my hilights, some of which have not been mentioned, but connect directly to some of the bigger issues.

28 - kirby votes jordan, wondering if jordan was softclaiming (rolefishing)
30 - monkey wagons jordan for no other reason than wagoning.
34 - malcolm votes jordan

(Three votes with no explanation)

45 - ecto - this post was not clear to me...
49 - monkey accuses jordan of omgus, even though 1)jordan only called monkey strange, and 2) jordan was asked what he though of the wagon on him, so he was just answering the question
50 - ML points out it isn't omgus
54 - Monkey is a hypocrite -- he talks about how jordan didn't give reasons for voting him, while he admits he had not real reason to vote jordan other than wagoning.
58 - kirby also accuses jordan of OMGUS and asks for a case, even though he had no case when voting jordan (hypocritical and eerily similar to monkey behavior).
62 - ecto - I love most of this post excpet for the "posting under your alt is scummy" bit which I caught and commented on before.
63 - Monkey says ecto is just angry because now ecto-jordan are connected. Personally, I don't see much of a connectiong, unless you want to say that he was defending jordan just because he didn't agree with your non-existent case.
67 - Monkey continues to fish, asking SL how she is "clearly town alligned."
76 - ecto makes me a bit nervous by continuing with the "posting under alts is scummy" stuff.
79 - monkey again with the ecto/jordan connection BS
84 - monkey with unsubstantiated claims that ecto and jordan are making cooperative attacks and defending each other
88 - This was my favorite! I have to quote it.

I think it can be shown that you had no stated case against jordan, just a vote until

he listed you as one of the possible scum on his wagon

.

This is one of ecto's best points, and one I think it is entirely correct. Some of ecto's arguments seem to get complicated and he throws in everything but the kitchen sink at times. I think some of the back and forth has diluted some of the very strong points, like this one.

92,97: Eldritch replaces and doesn't explain his vote on monkey very well. When I thought he was mostly voting because he didn't like monkey posting under his alt, he responds by saying that is not why he is voting, but doesn't elaborate.

101: monkey makes a plea to consolidate ecto and jordan wagons to push for a claim at 5 votes (This is really bad).
106: Eldritch comments on 101, saying he's happy with his vote on monkey (seems a little bit like he's constructing the case after voting).

109: Ecto explains his "posting under alts is scummy" claims. I appreciate the explanation, but I still think it's bad WIFOM, and throws suspicions on the rest of his case on monkey, which for the most part is very good.

112: monkey claiming hard evidence of a connections between ecto-jordan when he has never provided any.

---

Up to page 6 with the play by play.

Overall, I think monkey is scum, because he never had a good reason for voting jordan, then called jordan on OMGUS in order to build a case. Then he started hammering away at a jordan/ecto connection for no apparent reason, and saying he has proven something that is just a wild accusation. I think he's just doing it because it's the only way he can attack the points ecto is making against him -- to say ecto and jordan are scum buddies. That is a very scummy way to defend against points: not defend against the actual points but connect the player to another player you think is scummy.

Other things I think are important, and that hasn't really been mentioned:
Kirby and malcolm did basically the same thing that monkey did in the beginning, voting jordan for no reason.
Kirby also tried the OMGUS accusation against jordan after the fact.
Kirby also was rolefishing.
eldritch didn't explain his vote on monkey very much.

unvote

I want to just vote monkeyman, but I have to see what happens between pages 6-8. I think I saw kirby start bussing monkeyman... so I guess I have to read everything closely before voting.

[elvis_knits]

WOO Part 2 of my reading. This is shorter.

WE get a little actions between EL and Snix. EL questioning snix, seeming to think Snix is a little scummy for voting ecto. Atleast that is how I read their exchange. Then later EL says that Snix is a unique townie (or something like that... WTF).

131 - snix says he didn't vote ecto for defending jordan but because he denied it. Seems a little contrived and reachy, but okay.

139 - EL says he'd be okay with lynching any of ecto, jordan or monkey since all of the cases are weak. (This comes as a surprise to me that he thinks the cases are weak, and if they're weak, why does he want to lynch any of them??)
147 - EL doesn't want attention off monkey/jordan/ecto. Again... why would he want attention to stay on these three when he thinks all the cases are weak?

154 - kirby comes in and picks on one of monkeys only good points (monkey said EL should make his own case if he thinks all the cases are weak), and votes monkey. This seemed ludicrous to me. There's plenty of reasons to vote monkey. This is not one of them.

Then we get some fighting between kirby and monkey over basically nothing (which of jordan/ecto monkey would rather lynch). Seems to me like they might be distancing, because the fight is over something inconsequential.

162 - DDD votes monkey. I like this. Ballsy, aggressive. Only bad thing is that he doesn't provide too much content, only a vote with a bit of explanation (and the explanation is good btw). But there's not much comment on the game as a whole, so in that sense I see some of the criticism on DDD, but feel the vote is good.
164 - Snix votes DDD.
166 - EL votes DDD, taking pressure of monkey, and derailing the monkey bandwagon, moving focus to another player, a thing he has been saying we should not do. Hypocrisy.

177: jordan

So after everything, I think these people are scummy:

monkey
EL
Kirby (with possible ties to monkey)
and malcolm is not to be forgotten

I want to vote monkey, but I'm not sure of the VC right now.

mod, votecount please

[elvis_knits]

EL, don't you think there is a contradiction in you telling everyone to keep pressure on monkey/jordan/ecto, then voting DDD? You aren't following your own advice. Makes me wonder why you wanted everyone to stay focused on those three at that time, but not later.

In fact, at the time you said to keep pressure on monkey/jordan/ecto, people were starting to complain about you 1)because you were saying the cases on those three were weak and saying to keep pressure on them, and 2)because you weren't making cases of your own.

So maybe you just didn't want anyone to widen the net of suspicion to include YOU.

But you were okay with widening the net of suspicion later when you wanted it to include DDD.

[elvis_knits]

Also, just something I'm thinking about since I have fed into this a little with speculating buddies:

I think we shouldn't get TOO carried away with "ties." It's good to look for connections between players, and good to put your suspicions down. But it's mostly only useful for later, after we have lynched scum. It should not be used as real evidence against a person. I'm okay with it being supporting evidence. In my experience talking about potential ties can get very confusing and can make it easier for scum to manipulate us. (Think of monkey tyring to use ecto/jordan's agreement that he is scum as evidence that they are scum buddies. That type of argument should never fly).

We should be more concerned with lynching the scummiest person, plain and simple. Then, after we hit scum, we go back to the suspicions of who could be tied to who. So, yes, talk about it, say who you think is paired with who if you notice something, but let's try not to get bogged down in it, or let ties make too much of an influence of who we lynch. I've just seen that be manipulated too much in the past.

[elvis_knits]

Point noted, I suppose I was being a bit hypocritical. I don't really have a point of defense for the argument that "Well maybe you just didn't want the net of suspicion widened to include yourself," as hypocrisy is really just second nature to me, it comes with arrogance.

lol

Still, it is a weak WIFOMish point. I come in out of nowhere and tell everyone to stay focused on Ecto/Jordan/Monkey, I think its a nulltell because it could be argued that it would've been more beneficial for me to just stay out of it. The fact that I said something about it at a time I was having no special interest shown to me would be dumb, etc WIFOM.

My point is not WIFOM. My point is that when people wanted to widen the net of suspicion to include you, you suggested we stay on the three others. Later, you widened the net when the suspect was not you. None of that is WIFOM. Your motivations for doing it maybe WIFOM, but the point remains. It is a series of events and there is no WIFOM there.

I think if Monkey is scum, we should take a look at DDD and Kirby for possible bussing. Saying this puts myself in a precarious position, as I have no reservations right now about switching back to Monkey if town thinks thats a better lynch. I know I don't have the best logic in this game, so I'm trying to identify people who strike me as fairly thoroughly town so I can offer a unique perspective through which they can case build better.

Okay so which "fairly thoroughly town" people were you trying to help? Because it looked to me that you were trying to help ecto for a long time there and he's on your list of acceptable lynches. So is he town or is he an acceptable lynch?

Though I haven't directly built any cases, I spent a good part of the Ecto/Jordan/Monkey debate fishing for things from Monkey and Snix so that others could build their cases. I didn't give up on Snix until he gave me exactly what I wanted to hear, that he plays by gut. I didn't give up on Monkey until he had slipped and dodged enough for him to be highlighted as very possible scum in my eyes.

Okay so you were trying to help monkey build his case? But didn't you replace into the game and vote monkey? I thought you were basically trying to help ecto question/attack monkey for the most part there. Now you're saying you wanted to help monkey until it was apparent he was scummy?

And I have no idea why a person would try to help people build cases when they thought the cases were weak. Unless you're scum trying to exploit weak cases.

I would like to hear from you exactly what the case on monkey is, in your opinion. I would like to know what arguments/posts you don't like. I want to hear more than "monkey is slipping and dodging."

However, it seems as though everyone would rather hear a roleclaim from Monkey, so lets hear it.

Unvote

Vote: MonkeyMan576

Criticizing me for putting DDD under suspicion puts you in an interesting position now Ecto, do you intend to derail your wagon that you seem to feel so sure about in order to prevent a roleclaim from Monkey? Does my waffling on the situation make me look like a busser? I especially want to hear from you on this, Elvis.

Monkey should probably claim. He's been scummy, I've explained why I think so.

However, EL, I haven't seen a lot of straight forward explanations from you. A few times, I have thought you were leaning one way, but then you come and say you felt totally differently (like with questioning snix, or voting monkeyman and imo helping ecto question monkey and now saying you were helping monkey). It's like you are leaving things purposely open-ended so that you can switch your opinion later if you need to.

I think you should explain why you think monkey is scummy, otherwise I will assume you voted him because I criticised you for voting DDD.

[elvis_knits]

But which muppet are you?

[elvis_knits]

Well, as a rule, vanilla claims shouldn't save a person from lynch.

But I would like to discuss a bit more with EL, and have some more participation from quieter people before we decide on a lynch. I'd also like the chance to say more since so much happened in a few days that I didn't participate in.

[elvis_knits]

Jordan, last page you wrote this:

Hello sorry, saw 9 pages and didnt look forard to reread.

I am insulted at being called a rookie, even if it wasnt meant that way. I know mafia. I am no noob/rookie.

I don't know ecto, but I'm guessing he's defending me solely b/c he knows im right.

Also, as said b4, luckiness has nothing to do w/ this game. I am neither scum nor vanilla.

I don't like Monkey being suspicious of me, but I must say he looks like townie.

unvote

I believe Ecto and Monkey are on the same (townie) side. But ofc, more so Ecto than monkey.

I'll need to reread again to make sure of something before I make a vote.

What changed your mind about Monkey being townie?

[elvis_knits]

If it's a straight vanilla claim (no character) I think it's often better to force the town to lynch you without a claim. But I wouldn't expect everyone to know that or agree. And I definitely don't think anyone should lie.

The character gives us a bit more to work with. Link Hogthrob seems like a character that would believably be in the game. Not first string, but not unknown either.

Basically, I think monkey is still a good lynch because the claim doesn't do anything to wipe out the earlier reasons for lynching him. A claim is really designed to stop the town from lynching power roles, and since monkey hasn't claimed a power role, the claim should not stop the lynch.

But I think the last two votes on him, EL and jordan, were made under fishy circumstances. That's really the only thing that makes me want to discuss things further.

I want to atleast see what EL has to say in response to my last post about him

[elvis_knits]

I'm not sure lynching MM is a good idea at this point because I don't like the last two votes on him. EL basically votes MM because I criticisized his DDD vote, and to help the town get a claim... not because he thinks MM is scum.

I like some of what charter is saying, except the part that seems to say EL is too scummy to be scum.

99- Wow. I'm not sure if EL is scum anymore. This post is so ridiculously bad, I don't see how he could've possibly expected it to fly.

I like this kirby bandwagon on the one hand, but on the other, I think EL is much scummier, and he has mysteriously disappeared since I started calling him on his scummy moves.

vote Eldritch Lord

[elvis_knits]

I'm not sure lynching MM is a good idea at this point because I don't like the last two votes on him. EL basically votes MM because I criticisized his DDD vote, and to help the town get a claim... not because he thinks MM is scum.

I like some of what charter is saying, except the part that seems to say EL is too scummy to be scum.

99- Wow. I'm not sure if EL is scum anymore. This post is so ridiculously bad, I don't see how he could've possibly expected it to fly.

I like this kirby bandwagon on the one hand, but on the other, I think EL is much scummier, and he has mysteriously disappeared since I started calling him on his scummy moves.

vote Eldritch Lord

Ummmm, why are you only now not liking the last two votes (Jordan and EL) on him? You've posted several times after they cast their votes. You even mentioned before that you thought their votes were fishy, and you want to have a longer day because of it, but you still wanted a MM lynch in that post.

You really haven't called EL out for being scum. Vote for Kirby.

You're not making much sense here. First I'm "only now not liking the last two votes," then you say how you do know that I "even mentioned before that I thought their votes were fishy." I mentioned it before, hence, it is not the first time I said I don't like the votes. And the continued absence of EL has made me feel he's a much better place to put my vote.

And I have called EL out for being scum. My catchup posts 193, 195 point out specific things I don't like about him. Also, 199, and 206. He hasn't posted since 206, hasn't responded.

As for kirby, I agree he's scummy and if you think he's the scummiest, go for it. However, I think EL is the scummiest.

[elvis_knits]

Monkeyman, quote for me where DDD "over-promoted his towniness."

[elvis_knits]

My point is that when people wanted to widen the net of suspicion to include you, you suggested we stay on the three others.

You should keep in mind here that by widening the net of suspicion to include me, you mean MonkeyMan weakly deflected at a time that I thought it was inopportune (by suggesting I "go find my own scum"), especially since he had been slipping up so much.

MM was not the only person suspicious of you for calling all the cases (which you were actively advancing) weak.

I don't see how you can really defend the fact that you
1) Questioned and helped build cases and then said they were weak and blamed them on other people
2) Didn't want to build cases on your own
3) Repeatedly help others further cases (like you believe in them), then come out and say the opposite. This amounts to manipulation and hiding your true opinion.

Okay so which "fairly thoroughly town" people were you trying to help? Because it looked to me that you were trying to help ecto for a long time there and he's on your list of acceptable lynches. So is he town or is he an acceptable lynch?

Help Ecto? No, I was trying to scumhunt on Money, the fact that you notice that I'm not helping Monkey or Ecto should tell you that I truly believed the case on both was weak. But since you ask, Snix strikes me as fairly town; though this may be because of personal experience I've had playing with Snix in the past.

I guess I really don't understand what you were trying to do or what the point was, by helping people question/attack when you believed the attack was weak. Why do that when you could be building a case you do believe in?

It seems like you're just trying to help the town go the wrong way. Which isn't helping at all.

[elvis_knits]

@ekiM, there pretty much was a consensus that MM would be lynched at that point, at least that is what I thought. Otherwise so many people wouldn't have been voting for him! He was L-1 and I was thinking about voting him. Perfect time to claim.

Also, for the most part, I like Ecto, but I don't like him now saying he was leaning away from getting a claim from Monkey at that point. Since he was hammering away at monkey all day and was still voting monkey, I don't know how anyone was supposed to know he wouldn't have wanted monkey to claim.

[elvis_knits]

@ekiM, there pretty much was a consensus that MM would be lynched at that point, at least that is what I thought. Otherwise so many people wouldn't have been voting for him! He was L-1 and I was thinking about voting him. Perfect time to claim.

Also, for the most part, I like Ecto, but I don't like him now saying he was leaning away from getting a claim from Monkey at that point. Since he was hammering away at monkey all day and was still voting monkey, I don't know how anyone was supposed to know he wouldn't have wanted monkey to claim.

Maybe you didn't see it because you weren't personally involved like EL was. What he saw was me suddenly side with my target against him. He felt the psychological shift. You "don't know how anyone was supposed to know", but those are Eldritch Lords words, not mine. I didn't put them into his mouth. What I am confirming is that he was right. I

was

beginning to feel real doubt about Monkey and his question was a very real and pertinent one. Would I still support a Monkey claim after looking at the fact that we already had 2 PR claims (remember my /facepalm?) and he felt my support for a Monkey lynch slipping? You saw the taunt? So he put him at L-1 to put me on the line, only Monkey claimed before I could give input on it.

Well I might have missed some of the nuances of that convo. I was catching up on a lot there. I guess I expected you to still want a claim because of how much time you had spent on monkey.

I agree with you though that EL has made many shady moves. That's why I'm voting him.

[elvis_knits]

Elvis, what do you think of post 330? Why make no comment on it?

It's very unsettling how you claim to be suspicious of Kirby, but don't really seem to be.

I almost did vote kirby after 330, but I thought it would dilute my case on EL. Do you think EL is scum?

[elvis_knits]

@ekiM, there pretty much was a consensus that MM would be lynched at that point, at least that is what I thought. Otherwise so many people wouldn't have been voting for him! He was L-1 and I was thinking about voting him. Perfect time to claim.

People were voting him, but it was an early game wagon and some people on it hadn't spoken in a while. How were you so sure there was a "consensus" there? Why force the claim without seeing responses to him being back at L-1?

Did you notice EL's sudden shift of stance I catalogue above? What do you make of it?

I don't know what you're talking about "early game wagon" when we'd been playing the game for over 10 pages. It's not like the votes on monkey were random. I was sure there was a consensus by there being 10 pages of discussion mostly about monkey, and there being 6 votes on him.

I do agree that EL's vote on Monkey muddies the waters a bit. After I had time to think about it, I liked it less and less, but at the time I was compartmentalizing a bit. Even if EL seems like scum, that doesn't mean Monkey isn't scum too. The circumstances of him laying the L-1 vote were suspicious, but I find scum often put bad votes on buddies in order to buss them. I had just criticized EL for jumping ship on monkey (trying to save his buddy?), so he came back and voted monkey. That seems almost like a confirmation of my suspicions.

But lots of that is speculation, dependent on people being buddies, which is so WIFOM at this point. So I just went with the fact that monkey was scummy and he had six votes on him. Simple. I don't understand why that is weird to anyone.

[elvis_knits]

Jordan and monkey, please stop with uneccesary quote pyramids.

Kirbyoshi's effort to explain his scummy mod question just made him look worse.

I'm willing to hammer.

[elvis_knits]

I guess nothing!

unvote; vote kirbyoshi

[elvis_knits]

He had his chance last page when he posted and didn't claim.

[elvis_knits]

I want to take another look at ML and ML interactions in light of this.

[elvis_knits]

vote Elvis

Number of times ML mentioned Elvis the entire game - 0
Number of times Elvis mentioned ML the entire game - 1

It was in post 193, of which I agreed with about none of, and she just mentions him in passing.

ML wasn't really on my radar. I don't see what is scummy about that. I could do a comparison about how many times I mentioned other people and how many times I they mention me. I don't see what a comparison like that proves. Actually, the last person who used that type of comparison on me was DGB in Invitational 10 and she was scum trying to railroad me.

Also, as for 193 and you not agreeing with it... when you replaced in you had a number of things you said that were factually incorrect, as in either you weren't reading very closely at all, or were trying to twist things. So you not agreeing with my reread is really a point in my favor.

[elvis_knits]

Got some time waiting to see if EL is actually going to walk down the terrible path he's announced he plans on taking.

News, notes, and questions from an EK re-read:

Elvis news and notes: She seemed rather curious about SL’s claim initially and in her ISO3 says, “And the SL stuff needed to be addressed, even though it wasn't part a case/attack.” Yet despite it needing to be addressed she never really mentions it again. EK, why did you just drop this topic without another word?

Probably because SL wasn't posting. Sort of hard to interact with someone who isn't there.

She completely nails EL to a wall for his litany of sins, hypocrisy, voting on a wagon he may not have had faith in, and voting purely to force a claim.

Yeah, I still think EL is hella scummy. His interaction with ML does not dissuade me.

This is a good question Macavity, one I've been asking myself, actually. I suppose I'd like to hear more from DDD before hearing a roleclaim from Monkey.

It looks like they were amping up for a DDD attack here.

The most suspicious thing is that she says she’s willing to hammer, essentially asking for a claim, but when charter clears her to kill Kirby she hammers without waiting for one. Elvis, what was the point of announcing that you were willing to hammer, but not doing so if not to force a claim? Follow-up: If you were looking for a claim, why didn’t you wait for one, instead of hammering when you received permission from another player?

I didn't wait for a claim because I noticed he had already posted when he was very close to a lynch. He'd had his chance to claim. He even posted to that effect, that he would have claimed if we had made it okay to claim vanilla, but because of the monkey-claimed-vanilla uproar, he didn't feel comfortable.

Anyway, I still think EL is scummiest from everything yesterday. And ML death supports this.

vote Eldritch lord

[elvis_knits]

Charter, I was thinking of this, where I pointed out how you were not making sense and missing things. I think other people pointed out other things you got wrong, but this was just what I said.

I'm not sure lynching MM is a good idea at this point because I don't like the last two votes on him. EL basically votes MM because I criticisized his DDD vote, and to help the town get a claim... not because he thinks MM is scum.

I like some of what charter is saying, except the part that seems to say EL is too scummy to be scum.

99- Wow. I'm not sure if EL is scum anymore. This post is so ridiculously bad, I don't see how he could've possibly expected it to fly.

I like this kirby bandwagon on the one hand, but on the other, I think EL is much scummier, and he has mysteriously disappeared since I started calling him on his scummy moves.

vote Eldritch Lord

Ummmm, why are you only now not liking the last two votes (Jordan and EL) on him? You've posted several times after they cast their votes. You even mentioned before that you thought their votes were fishy, and you want to have a longer day because of it, but you still wanted a MM lynch in that post.

You really haven't called EL out for being scum. Vote for Kirby.

You're not making much sense here. First I'm "only now not liking the last two votes," then you say how you do know that I "even mentioned before that I thought their votes were fishy." I mentioned it before, hence, it is not the first time I said I don't like the votes. And the continued absence of EL has made me feel he's a much better place to put my vote.

And I have called EL out for being scum. My catchup posts 193, 195 point out specific things I don't like about him. Also, 199, and 206. He hasn't posted since 206, hasn't responded.

As for kirby, I agree he's scummy and if you think he's the scummiest, go for it. However, I think EL is the scummiest.

[elvis_knits]

Charter, I was thinking of this, where I pointed out how you were not making sense and missing things. I think other people pointed out other things you got wrong, but this was just what I said.

No, you said, right after I replaced in, that you liked with what I posted. NO ONE had said any of it was wrong or anything at that point (the only thing was Kirby, but that was mostly asking for elaboration). If it's factually incorrect and I'm twisting things now, why didn't you point it out at that point, instead of liking what I said?

I'm not even talking about your catch-up post, even though I did say at the time that yous "EL is too scummy to be scum" arguments were fail.

I'm talking about the post that I quoted.

As well as other stuff you said yesterday, like this:

I missed that Snix voted DDD, my bad.

I think it's interesting how easily you condemn ML for what seems like simply guilt by association.

Strengthens that ML is your buddy. What is interesting about it? Do you agree with my assessment or not? I don't like how you throw out your opinion on the subject of ML, but don't explain it at all, and ignore everything else I said in my post. Looks like you're just interested in what I have to say about ML.

Caffeine, methamphetamines, whatever it is quit doing it. You don't even remember that you accused

me

of being ML's buddy, not Kirby.

Your play HAS been bad. You got yourself run up to L-1 with it. It wasn't because people thought you were town, I can tell you that much.

Holy contradiction Batman! I thought his wagon was scum driven? Now it was town driven?

[elvis_knits]

Well, looks like I can't nail you to a cross due to a technicality (not talking about my catch up post), but I'm still really sure you're scum.

I've already explained the first one, the second, I'm pretty sure I had mentioned I thought all three of them were scum by like post 100 or something, third one I already explained as well. Still think you're really reaching here and are scum.

And what is your reasoning? Some imaginary connection between ML and myself? I already posted how that makes no sense.

[elvis_knits]

Why don't you just defend your one reason then. Because I don't see how me mentioning ML once and him mentioning me zero times is any kind of a scum tell.

[elvis_knits]

The only people ML really interacts with are monkey, kirby and snix.

[elvis_knits]

unvote

I think we should lynch DDD if there is a guilty on him.

Ecto, that is interesting that you bring up sanity issues. That was not my first thought. I don't know how common insane cops are in minis. I would tend to be very suspicious of EL if we lynched DDD and he was town.

[elvis_knits]

Well when a cop has guilty, I pretty much go with it. If he's lying, he dies next, so I'm not sure why he would be lying. And if he is lying... honestly, at this point, trading you for another scum is a good deal.

You're right that I didn't think you were scum previously though.

I think it's a little weird you speculating on him being a lyncher though. I mean, why are you thinking he's a lyncher instead of just being lying scumbago?

[elvis_knits]

It just takes so much longer to invent a fake claim.

[elvis_knits]

Vote DebonairDannyDiPietro

I don't know why he waited to claim, why he insisted on having someone vote EL while he claimed, why he wants EL lynched first, or why he is now softclaiming miller.

I like the stuff he is throwing out to try to clear himself though... all very rare stuff like maybe EL is lyncher, maybe EL is insane, maybe DDD is a miller only he didn't know it??? Uh... none of it very common, and would make a mini very swingy and bastardly.

And I have no idea why Snix is buying into everything DDD is saying... stuff like this:

Plus, if EL is Sam the Eagle it is more likely than not that he is not completely sane.

Why would Sam the Eagle be insane??

[elvis_knits]

You're an SK charter, give it up. The PGO claim was to avoid an investigation that would reveal a guilty.

Pretty much. And I guess he'll be killing me tonight. Good luck with that, charter.

[elvis_knits]

So you're saying you're investigation immune.

[elvis_knits]

Well, charter did hit scum N1, so in that sense, his play was not bad. I'm having a hard time understanding the rest of his play though.

And I guess EL was an insane or paranoid cop? That's unexpected in a mini.

One of the reasons I think snix is the scummiest is that he already said something like maybe EL is insane cop. Which is something I wouldn't expect anyone to guess. But if you're scum you know that's probably the case if EL and DDD are not on your team. Also, I think snix has the strongest ties to ML... how he attacked ML and Ecto and voted ecto over ML.

I hate no lynching, but this is probably one of the those situations where it could be good. Even number alive. And we're probably at lylo assuming 2 scum left. So we basically have to lynch right today or do a no-lynch and hope for some info overnight.

[elvis_knits]

No lynch is only good if we have a power role left that can get us more info. We've had a lot of power roles die. Watcher, cop, vig. We have to have something left that can get us results, and hope that scum don't NK it.

Otherwise we're just giving scum a free kill, and we'll be in this same situation with one less townie.

Although sometimes people argue that even that is good for us since we can eliminate that person as scum. But I don't think that really holds water since scum are going to kill an unscummy townie anyway.

That's basically what ecto is saying that our odds of hitting scum are higher tomorrow. But not really if scum kill a person we weren't suspicious of anyway.

[elvis_knits]

Well, charter did hit scum N1, so in that sense, his play was not bad. I'm having a hard time understanding the rest of his play though.

And I guess EL was an insane or paranoid cop? That's unexpected in a mini.

One of the reasons I think snix is the scummiest is that he already said something like maybe EL is insane cop. Which is something I wouldn't expect anyone to guess. But if you're scum you know that's probably the case if EL and DDD are not on your team. Also, I think snix has the strongest ties to ML... how he attacked ML and Ecto and voted ecto over ML.

I hate no lynching, but this is probably one of the those situations where it could be good. Even number alive. And we're probably at lylo assuming 2 scum left. So we basically have to lynch right today or do a no-lynch and hope for some info overnight.

I believed DDD's claim and read the wiki article for Sam the Eagle. It was possible that I was wrong but if anyone was going to be an insane cop it would have been sam. Since names seem to be linked to rolls I think it might help if we all name claimed.

I am Hilda.

So you want people to name claim to try to figure out their roles?

!!!

vote snix

[elvis_knits]

No, this is BS snix.

We either nolynch without giving any more info to the scum (no massclaim!) or we massclaim and go balls out today for the lynch.

I think either way could be good, but you're starting a massclaim before we decide which option we want to do. That's F-ing scummy.

Also, triggering a massclaim by asking people for role claims is unbelievably underhanded.

[elvis_knits]

Where is jordan?

[elvis_knits]

So do you two plan to wait until Jordan gets here so you can at best get a /random roll, or are you going to move the game along and vote No Lynch?

I already said I can see some benefit either way. No-lynches go against my grain because I think towns win games from plain old-fashioned scum hunting. But I do admit that no-lynches can be good in certain situations, and this might be one of them.

I really feel snix is scummy, but I am willing to do a no-lynch if that is what most people want. I just think we should hear from everyone.

[elvis_knits]

Boo Jordan

[elvis_knits]

Well it looks like we're going to nolynch. I'm willing to go with majority. Should I hammer or give kiku more time to read?

[elvis_knits]

I agree with everything Ecto said in 643. This could be a gambit, and seeing as I was voting Snix yesterday it would make sense for him to come out against me today if he is scum. But there's also the possibility that scum no-killed, in which case snix could be either scum or town. He could be scum who decided to no-kill to "prove" his role block claim, or he could be town who really did block me even though the block was not responsible for the no-kill.

I'm not sure which it is at this point, although I tend to be more suspicious of Snix because I already thought he was pretty scummy. He also tried to get people to claim yesterday without getting agreement from people. I also don't like how he didn't claim all his actions when he claimed. Claiming all his choices would give us a better idea if he's telling the truth or not.

At this point, is there any reason why I shouldn't claim?

[elvis_knits]

Hey it's my scumday! Cool.

[elvis_knits]

I agree mass claim is in order. I can go first. It probably makes the most sense.

[elvis_knits]

Are you not paying attention or are you scum?

It's probably lylo. We lynch right today or we lose. We can't do this "lynch elvis and if she's town lynch snix." Nevermind the possibility that neither of us are scum.

[elvis_knits]

I'm Camilla the Chicken. I'm vanilla.

[elvis_knits]

I would certainly bank on two scum still alive, solely based off the fact that town has five(one alleged) power roles and the only dead scum is vanilla. Not sure if my mind will change on my read through, but I think it would be foolish to assume anything less. due to kill flavor, though, I would assume the actual tally is one scum, one sk. Unless someone took credit for the blowings up?

Without the read through, Monkey looks like the safest lynch. He is certainly the most anti-town.

I think it was charter who blew people up. He was a compulsive vig, IIRC.

I also think there are 2 scum left. In a gave with a compulsive vig it doesn't make sense for there to be less. I don't often see ANY mini game with less that 3 to start.

At this point, I don't favor lynching ecto. That seems like the worst thing we could do, and I don't know why monkey suggests it. Monkey is looking better and better to me since he has not done one good thing for the town. I also find it hard to believe he's this clueless.

[elvis_knits]

The reason is you seem the least like scum to me.

I'm trying to think of the possible scenarios. Let's say snix is scum and you and him cooked up this little gambit. You would obviously support him in trying to lynch me (sort of like how monkey is acting). Or you could go for the buss and try to get him lynched. But you don't want to lynch either of us, which seems like it is not helpful to you if you're scum.

Let's say snix is town and you're scum who sent in a no-kill last night. Which gives a sort of false positive to snix. Well, if you're scum this is your dream scenario, this is what you would have been hoping for, and you definitely support snix and try to lynch me (again, like monkey is doing). But you're not trying to lynch me, so this scenario isn't true.

So whether or not snix is scum, you're not acting like scum would act in any scenario I can think of.

On the other hand, whether snix is scum or not, monkey

is

acting the part of scum.

[elvis_knits]

The reason is you seem the least like scum to me.

I'm trying to think of the possible scenarios. Let's say snix is scum and you and him cooked up this little gambit. You would obviously support him in trying to lynch me (sort of like how monkey is acting). Or you could go for the buss and try to get him lynched. But you don't want to lynch either of us, which seems like it is not helpful to you if you're scum.

Let's say snix is town and you're scum who sent in a no-kill last night. Which gives a sort of false positive to snix. Well, if you're scum this is your dream scenario, this is what you would have been hoping for, and you definitely support snix and try to lynch me (again, like monkey is doing). But you're not trying to lynch me, so this scenario isn't true.

So whether or not snix is scum, you're not acting like scum would act in any scenario I can think of.

On the other hand, whether snix is scum or not, monkey

is

acting the part of scum.

Only in your world, Elvis. We supposedly should ignore the night action implications against you.

Monkey... seriously, are you this clueless or are you scum?

He could be LYING or scum could have no-killed last night. This is not a black and white issue even if you're not me with the benefit of knowing my allignment. You're acting like the result is definitive and it's not.

[elvis_knits]

Well I didn't mean to appeal to emotion. If you're telling me you're not clueless and you're really paying attention to this game and thinking things through then I have to conclude that you're scum.

[elvis_knits]

How does looking at the possible scenarios = WIFOM?

And I didn't call you scummy for voting me. I showed how anyone who is scum in this situation is going to want to vote me. It's not like I'm mad you're voting me so I'm calling you scum. I showed you how it favors scum to act how you're acting.

Also, I was more asking if you were than calling you clueless. And it's because you are ignoring everything that doesn't match with what you want to do.

[elvis_knits]

You are definitely clueless. You can believe Snix is a roleblocker and blocked Elvis last night and it still does not make Elvis scum.

More appeal to emotion. Calling me clueless without actually giving a reason?

I think the reason is right there.

[elvis_knits]

Monkey, it's not WIFOM to look at the possible scenarios. Because in EVERY scenario ecto's behavior is not scummy and yours is. I'm not picking one possibility over the other (which would be WIFOM), I'm showing how every scenario supports my conclusion.

[elvis_knits]

It's like if you knew both wine glasses had poison in it, it doesn't matter which one you pick.

[elvis_knits]

I don't understand how you quoting the wiki makes your point at all.

[elvis_knits]

I wasn't making huge leaps there monkey. Unless you think scum don't like to lynch town.

[elvis_knits]

I feel like I'm talking to a wall.

I accounted for bussing. If ecto were scum and snix were scum then he could either try to lynch me or go for the buss by lynching snix. Seeing as he doesn't want to de either, I do not think they are scum together.

[elvis_knits]

Apparently my player slot is corrupted. The only reason I would think Jordan would say "I'm not vanilla" would be to draw an nk. Kind of odd, but it leaves me a bit fucked.

I actually think I know why jordan did that.

You want the mafia to overestimate you as much as possible, especially if ur vanilla.

[elvis_knits]

There will be two scum left. Two scum out of twelve is just about balanced in mountainous, let alone with a town vig, cop, and possibly roleblocker too. Probably both power roles, something like redirector or framer to explain EL.

I'm not bothered that Jordan claimed not to be vanilla, I could see a new player like him doing that.

I'm trying to remember why I thought monkey looked town earlier. He certainly doesn't today.

Ecto's logic on not lynching either Snix or Elvis is sound, unless there's some stronger evidence on either one than I've seen so far. Anyone who disagrees, explain why. His reasoning is here: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 87#1911387

I think I need a full re-read but it's Friday and I'm tired.

I don't like that Ecto proposes who not to lynch, without stating a good lynch target. It sounds like he's just trying to hinder the town, the same way he was trying to hinder the town yesterday by wanting a no lynch and mass claim. Seriously, proposing a no lynch and then claiming a roleblocker is lying about them is a pretty obvious scum gambit in my book.

No. Ecto did not want us to claim yesterday.

Snix is the one who tried to start a mass claim without agreement.

How is "proposing a no-lynch and then claiming a role blocker is lying" an obvious scum gambit?? I have not heard of this one.

[elvis_knits]

How is that a gambit though and please tell me why you lied about ecto. He didn't want a mass claim AND a no lynch. He wanted a no-lynch. He didn't want a mass claim.

[elvis_knits]

No, I will not be apologizing because those quotes are completely out of context monkey.

Did you miss what ecto was saying all day yesterday??

I believe we are in a No Lynch situation.

A No Lynch is simple math.

Pro-town - No Lynch in order to mathematically improve odds.

So do you two plan to wait until Jordan gets here so you can at best get a /random roll, or are you going to move the game along and vote No Lynch?

There are more quotes... ecto wants to no-lynch all day long. He onle talks about massclaiming when he thinks he has no choice.

If we decide to lynch, we can argue over mass claims, etc when that time comes.

[elvis_knits]

It's a gambit because the mafia is trying to get away with as few deaths as possible.

I don't think you know what gambit means.

[elvis_knits]

No, I will not be apologizing because those quotes are completely out of context monkey.

Did you miss what ecto was saying all day yesterday??

I believe we are in a No Lynch situation.

A No Lynch is simple math.

Pro-town - No Lynch in order to mathematically improve odds.

So do you two plan to wait until Jordan gets here so you can at best get a /random roll, or are you going to move the game along and vote No Lynch?

There are more quotes... ecto wants to no-lynch all day long. He onle talks about massclaiming when he thinks he has no choice.

If we decide to lynch, we can argue over mass claims, etc when that time comes.

I don't buy that. We always have choices. Your hyper-defence of ecto is rather telling.

HOW CAN YOU NOT BUY THAT? Read ecto's posts. Is there really any doubt he wanted a no lynch and he did NOT want a mass claim??

[elvis_knits]

Let me get this straight, snix:

You claimed Hilda YESTERDAY trying to push a massclaim without consensus.

Me and monkey vote you yesterday, but you get away under a nolynch.

Today you come out firing against me, claiming Hilda, roleblocker.

ekiM points out your flavor doesn't match your role.

You admit you lied, that you're not Hilda.

And when you talked about your "real" role you didn't say you're a role blocker, just some confusing crap about being a town prostitute. Ecto called you on it, and you're like "oh yeah I am still a roleblocker."

...

I think I know what happened. I think you wanted a mass claim yesterday, and tried to start it by claiming Hilda. Then since you were under fire you had to come up with this gambit of yours claiming role blocker. But Hilda doesn't really fit with role blocker, and ekiM caught it, so now you're digging the hole deeper.

I see no reason why you would have to lie about your role.

vote snix

[elvis_knits]

unvote

[elvis_knits]

Ecto, I really think snix is scum though.

I guess I can go for monkey though. He is lying so I think he's scum too.

[elvis_knits]

Ecto, why do you believe snix?

[elvis_knits]

Rereading and I am more convinced that Snix is scum. I think he may be a busdriver or something. It would explain the guilty for sure, and being the only one to question the sanity of Sam, makes you wonder.

I think Ecto may be going a bit far with this.

Elvis: do you think a Ecto/Snix pairing is possible?

I think that if they were both scum then they'd probably both be pushing for my lynch.

I mean, if it's lylo, why not?

It's not 100% or anything, but I just think the odds are against it.

[elvis_knits]

TBH, I'm actually not totally clear on the ecto plan of not lynching snix or me. I mean, I apreciate not dying and all, but I'm not clear on why that is the only strategy. I fail at planning strategy though.

[elvis_knits]

I still don't understand why snix would need to lie and say he was Hilda.

[elvis_knits]

Good game everyone!

Town almost won... many times. Atleast it felt like that to me! Charter was a great vig. He killed ML, had me correctly pegged and I think he even mentioned EkiM. I thought I was going to die the night he killed EL. That was my first lucky break -- charter not vigging me. Second lucky break was not getting lynched after Snix correctly RBed me. I mean, I thought I was so cooked after that!

While ecto's logic may be technically right about that snix's guilty could have been scum doing a no-kill... I think it's the wrong way to go. If I had been town, I would have wanted to kill me. I go for the things that have the highest probability of happening, and I think scum usually send in a kill. IT's just too tempting! Scum almost always send in a kill. I only remember one game where I modded a newbie game and they decided to no-kill. So I would rather go with the investigation. I think you have a higher chance of winning by going with the investigation/night result. Also, I would rather follow the night result and take my chances of losing to a low probability gambit. But that's just me.

Good game guys, and thanks to Troll for modding!

[elvis_knits]

I don't think you're an asshole or a shithead, ectomancer. I think you're wonderful I just think that most scum send in a kill.

I don't think I've ever no-killed as scum. And if I have, it hasn't been my idea, but my scum buddies. I don't think I've ever seen it, barring the one newbie game (which scum lost anyway).

I agree snix had damaged credibility though. I think fake claiming as town is not good. We saw how it made things harder fro charter and Snix. Town has a hard time believing when a plaer changes their claim.

[elvis_knits]

I'm an alpha female, ekiM. I can't share the spotlight with other females.