Open 162--Trendy and Subversive - Over! before 831

[Jahudo]

/confirm

[Jahudo]

Hi Cass! My meta is that I'm always on the same team as Cass, so I must also be town

[Jahudo]

Unvote:

Wait a minute, I just realized something. This may even be an entirely new setup of Trendy, as you're basically guaranteed one backed up powerrole. This ain't V2 at all. ^_^

Any reason for the unvote?

I don't see how the Trendy setup could be any other way because a nurse can never be upgraded if there's no doc, likewise for a deputy. Or is the point of "subversive" that there could be useless roles?

[Jahudo]

@Neto - Why are you concerned of a quick-lynch from L-2? Because you think scum would more likely hammer, or town would and then the next lynch wouldn't be obvious?

@Mod: Has the game started?

[Jahudo]

Day 2 could be a potential mylo if there's no doc and/or we mislynch today, so I would not advocate a policy lynch of a claimed power role. Its far better to keep a confirmed townie and have more days to find the RB.

Assuming the following come from scum, what would you advise the real powerroles to do, on D1, if...

...scum claims main role, and has the correct setup (eg: he claims cop, and it's cop/dep)?
...scum claims backup role and is correct?
...scum claims main role, but is wrong about the setup?
...scum claims backup role, but is wrong about the setup?

I don't like this theory discussion. The power role should claim or not, counter-claim or not as they think they should and we judge each situation as it happens. Talking about it before just gives scum an idea if claiming a power role will work.

Vote: yabbaguy

for questionable discussion and policy lynch idea. He doesn't support the policy that much, so that's not so bad.

--------------
Re: Netopalis 30
1. I don't know how ABR plays. I don't have a meta on anybody here and won't try to find one (which I normally do) because the search function is broken.
2. yes a little bit, see above.
3. Why does it look like we have a deadline? Whoever's scummiest/most anti-town. No lynch is bad since it could lead to a day 2 mylo.
4. I write long posts and base reads on a mix of general gut and post interpretation.

[Jahudo]

Mod: can we have a vote count / confirmation that the game has started?

@Netopalis: any reason you picked CSL over Khamisa for a vote/prod?

[Jahudo]

I'm guessing that deadline is in two weeks? So we have some work to do.

CSL - No play so far. could be lurking.

kham - I agree with her post 37 about not who not to lynch this early, and I don't think her avoidance in sharing her playstyle says anything about an alignment, but so far she hasn't shown any sign of looking for scum.

ABR - Hasn't said or done anything to work for or against either alignment.

cass - post 31 shows concern over a deadline that was over two weeks away. It seems like premature concern for me because I've never seen it in any other slow-moving game unless deadline was less than one week away. And why might scum be more likely to act like a roleblocker was only possible, as opposed to town just forgetting the setup? I can't think of any advantage gained.

neto - I don't mind neto asking any of the questions he did in post 30 since he answered them himself in the same post as opposed to waiting for other people to answer. Question 4 is in itself a playstyle choice to whether talking about playstyles is productive. Singling out ABR makes sense since he has by far the most games under his belt, so he'd have more of a reputation (although I don't like to trust reputations). So neto seems proactive and genuinely curious so far. I still want to know why vote/prod CSL and not kham?

yabba - post 29's policy lynch idea shows hesitancy to commit to an answer. post 35 seems to work with 29 in wanting to collaborate the pro's/con's with others.

I feel this action pro-town, and outweighs any scum benefits that may come out of it.

What specific action are you talking about?

[Jahudo]

I guess we'll see when the deadline is. The mod did acknowledge votes made before today in his vote count.

[Jahudo]

Netopalis, I have no clue. I never pay attention to votecounts that are small.

Are you saying you saw the vote count but didn't read it, or you didn't know there was a vote count because it was small? Did you have an idea of who had votes on them vs. who didn't?

The vote count didn't indicate how many it took to lynch, but a quick check would show that it takes 4 votes to lynch. So any conservative, methodical player should always check the current vote count before placing any vote because it's so easy to push someone to L-1 in this setup and alot of people are probably going to be hanging at L-2 if they're under any pressure.

So CSL's vote makes me think he plays more free-flowing. Either that or he was hoping a clueless townie would accidentally hammer before someone notices it's L-1. No idea of knowing which. I'm not assuming one is more likely now.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to go ahead and FOS: CSL for that...I'm not sure what you were doing, but it seemed very, very odd. If it was an honest mistake, please try to be a bit more aware in the future.

@Neto: Do you think he made an honest mistake? The post sounds non-critical and your FoS looks like you're having doubt by saying you're afraid you have to call it out.

Concern over a deadline? How do you read that in it? There wasn't even any mention of a deadline yet... I was answering the question "if you had to lynch right now". And to that my answer was "I'd ask for an extension".

The deadline was mentioned in the opening post. I read your response as you wanting an extension when we still had 2-3 weeks to work with. Had you seen the standard 3-week deadline in the opening post? Your theories as why scum would fake ignorance over a RB sound possible, but I see it just as likely that someone could overlook the opening post.

[Jahudo]

let me just say that this sort of erratic behavior seems to be CSL's normal play rather than the exception.
... He seems like a careless player who doesn't quite understand the game and perhaps should be playing a few more newbie games.

Is erratic the right word? Maybe I haven't seen enough of him to confirm or deny this, but that word makes me think of a player as having unusual inconsistency and I don't see the vote/unvote as that.

[Jahudo]

@CSL+Khamisa: what are your first impressions of everyone?

What are YOUR first impressions of everyone? So far you've talked about setup and your meta. I'm beginning to feel better about my vote at this moment.

[Jahudo]

@Jahudo-73: I don't think that's a valid scumtell, discussing setup and meta when I'm supposed to be talking about... wait, we weren't talking about anything. Also, it's an obv. hyperbole that I have been talking about just those two matters, so you're basically stretching a case on me, which is scummy in itself.

Why did you feel the need to suddenly thrust the question my way?

I wasn't calling your setup and meta talk a scumtell, but rather your lack of opinions on anyone when you asked other people for player reads. I consider that a scumtell.

You think my statement was hyperbole? Prove it. You had not talked about anything of worth besides setup (which includes setup strategy and theory) and meta. You said nothing to indicate a feeling over another player.

[Jahudo]

That being said, in a game where nobody is talking, I think that his posts are perfectly reasonable attempts to foster discussion.

I don't think he was trying to foster discussion because he wasn't leading by example. If he was, he would formed his own player reads before needing to get reads from lurkers.

Pressuring the lurkers could help but we should not forget about the rest of us who are only starting to give contributions that matter (ie: what they think of other players).

@Jahudo: Do you think yabba's response to your attack was omgus, or something else? Why?

No, because he gives reasons. I see OMGUS as a suspicion without the attempt at showing a cause. I need to see how he responds to tell if his reasons are valid coming from his point of view.

Cass, any reason you asked those particular questions to only those people? It looks like most could be answered by anyone, even you.

[Jahudo]

@Yabba: I was explicitly talking about instances where you gave an opinion about who was scum. None of these quotes are relevant.

@ABR-32: ... I'd like your response to Netopalis-30, for one.

This question does not indicate any opinion on your part.

@all: So this is my first game where our discussion has been noticeably slower than the rest, and I'm not quite sure how to go at this and start setting off more fireworks so that we can start doing more investigating. Any thoughts/ideas?

This is just fluff. Anybody can look pro-active this way but it takes actual investigating to, you know, investigate.

I can't notice anything alarmingly out of the ordinary in the first few pages, but that may be just because my mind's fried at present.

The lack of an opinion on who is scum does not help us find scum.

@Netopalis-45: The thing is, to me, I think this is way too soon to be going after people for lurking (etc.)

That's great but you don't say whether you think he's suspicious for bringing that up. It's just personal preference. It has nothing to do with scumhunting.

3) The moderator hasn't even technically said "go" yet. Let's not forget that.

Another fluff post. It doesn't give anyone a better idea who you think is scum.

It looks to me like your trying to subvert my suspicion by changing the topic. I did not call into question your activity level. I called into question your lack of player reads.

I find your vote defensive and reactionary. No comment on ABR's vote; I need to see where he takes it.

[Jahudo]

Also, let's take note here, you're targetting me for something multiple other people have done as well, not offering input as to who is scum and who isn't, and just taking the same icebreaker questionnaires that we distributed at the start of the Day.

Who is the multiple other people? Neto answered his own questionaire in the same post. You asked two people to give reads that you had not given yet. That's a big scumtell for me.

Calling me scummy for actively trying to offer discussion in comparison is asinine and contrived.

I did not call you scummy for that reason. I called you scummy for holding back your first impressions on people until other people gave those impressions first.

It looks to me like your trying to subvert my suspicion by changing the topic.

Elaborate.

You are trying to make the argument that I am suspicious of you because of your level of pro-town contribution. On the contrary I think you've done alot of pro-town things like asking questions, making observations about setup, posting often and trying to get other people posting often.

But my recent suspicion of you was trying to get suspicion reads off people before you had given your own reads. That's the only thing that bothers me.

[Jahudo]

I am almost positive that I am at L-1 since CSL's unvote wasn't formatted right.

[Jahudo]

Unvote: Jahudo

if I still am, then.

You were never voting me. You were on CSL last. Why did you think you were voting me? Do you want to vote me?

[Jahudo]

I say everybody takes sides. yabba vs me. who ya got?

Also, if I had to pick the second scummiest now, it would be ABR for fluff posting. I don't think that's helpful at any time, but especially not when half the town is inactive. It doesn't really give the lurkers anything to respond to, except saying its fluff and they disappear again.

The longer the inactives stay inactive, the more anti-town they become. They aren't scummy yet but Kham and CSL need to tell us where they stand.

[Jahudo]

I agree with ABR's strategy. The only way to play this game is to vote, vote, vote.

Jahudo...Let's not unnecessarily attack those of us who are active. If the mod ever does show up, I wouldn't be opposed to lynching Albert. He's admitted that he's being completely useless, but he has been present long enough to make some contentless posts...The others can simply be replaced.

This post concerns me. I am only attacking the active people when I think they are doing something suspicious. Are you against my tactic? Are you saying his contentless posts are good or bad, or have no effect?

I think CSL said he didn't want to be replaced anymore. Maybe Kham will need replacement. We don't need to stop and wait for them.

[Jahudo]

You don't need to vote. I just want to know if you agree with one of us, or why you think we're both confused.

[Jahudo]

Taking sides does not mean vote. It means seeing where everybody stands on the issue of me vs. yabba.

[Jahudo]

I think there's only one vote on me now, Neto.

I agree that we could be more productive if we had something to talk about other than the already over-covered fact that there is nothing to talk about.

You're free to talk about something productive, you know.

@Jahudo- Not a fan of the fact you're not allowing a "None of the Above" option. I still have that option in the back of my mind, to be honest.

That we're both town? Yeah, I'm still considering that too. I just wanted reactions. Good way to keep up discussion, at least it should be.

[Jahudo]

Yes I'm town, Neto. I was speaking from the town's POV because the question was "why didn't you provide a "none of the above" for the town to choose?"

I think ABR said "abandon game" as a joke but also as a comment that people aren't playing the game how he would like. ie: with lots of bandwagons.

Khamisa, why shouldn't we lynch you?
CSL, same question.

[Jahudo]

Jahudo: because I fail to see where there is satisfactory evidence for you to lynch me. Do you have any reason to lynch me?

I see no evidence that you are town. I have seen minimal evidence of town behavior from most, but not all, other players

Let me put it another way. Why should the town choose to lynch anyone else before you?

[Jahudo]

There appears to be a deadline. At least in theory.

@Mod: Is this rule in effect? If so, how long do we have?

6. Games are on a 3-week per in-game day deadline if nobody is lynched by then.

[Jahudo]

Ok, Kham can stay. I want ABR to stay too. A scummy ABR could just as easily lurk to victory but his threats of leaving or claiming are actually a townish move to get people to respond.

What happened to CSL? It sounded like he was going to be replaced, then he came back, and now he's disappeared again.

[Jahudo]

A lurker like CSL is a waste of a lynch unless we think everyone else looks town. We know nothing about him so we have no reason to think he's scum. Scum might be the ones sticking around because it feels like they're winning, what with this complacency.

I think its possible that either Neto or ABR is scum though. The fluff posting by both of them on this page seems to me like scum trying to bait town into peeking peoples radars. I want to know if either Neto or ABR read it that way?

[Jahudo]

If I were scum, I wouldn't risk a 50-50 chance for a 1-for-1 trade, definitely not when there's a chance there would be a 1-for-0 trade.

Makes sense to me.

[Jahudo]

lol. I believe CSL.

I actually do not support more discussion today, but want to hear the argument of why we should keep looking for the other scum today.

Why I say go to night now:
1. We dont have enforced deadlines in this game.
2. Scum could get a better idea of who active power role is.

[Jahudo]

I call that accelerating the Day, Jahudo, which is scummy. You're playing the exact same way as CSL-

We can only lynch one person a day, and days have no time limit, so what is there to do today that can't be done tomorrow? Tomorrow we'll have information from night which will be helpful, today we're all lurkish and need a better reason to contribute. Lynch flip + night info = better reason to contribute.

[Jahudo]

Maybe scum was looking for the active power role.

ABR is confirmed townie if no one counters as a nurse/deputy.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to go ahead and FOS: CSL for that...I'm not sure what you were doing, but it seemed very, very odd. If it was an honest mistake, please try to be a bit more aware in the future.

I thought the doubtful tone of this FoS was strange initially, but now I'm using this as evidence for Neto being town. If he was distancing his scumbuddy, it would have been a better strategy to be critical over a small issue that wouldn't likely get CSL lynched. So I don't think this looks like distancing.

CSL's not paying attention to votecounts is indeed a bit strange. He seems to be unaware of the smallness of this setup. I don't think that's a tell either way though.

This has kinda the same vibe as not knowing what to make of CSL. But since she didn't cast any suspicion, I can't say its evidence of not-distancing. She could have been waiting for another place to distance, whereas Neto-scum would have been in that FoS post.

So yabba is my top suspect, as carry over from yesterday, with Cass at a default second.

[Jahudo]

Okay, I'll go back to being a guy.

Cass' play yesterday wasn't so hot...and it seemed to me that he wasn't too interested in advancing the town's discussion. Yabb's play, on the other hand, was definitely geared towards the advancement of the discussion....It seems to me that the optimal scum play is probably to lay low given the level of activity.

Valid points for a normal game, but the day was short in terms of post # and I don't see Cass's contribution as strikingly less in comparison to us.

I also think it's much harder to lay low in a 7 player game as opposed to a regular 12 player mini. Scum may like their numbers and try to direct conversation and be more vocal because they have less people to convince. But I can't say that yabba was being controlling because we didn't have a very long day 1.

That said we need more contribution from Cass. There's not much argument to say she's town right now.

[Jahudo]

I am not a nurse or deputy.

[Jahudo]

@yabba, neto and cass: What do you think about CSL's interaction with people?

There's barely any interaction, and I can't gleam anything from my point of view. CSL joke voted yabba in his first post, but I never know if that means anything from scum. I don't think it does.

Then he put me to L-1 and tried to unvote once he knew that. I actually believe he was trying to unvote and didn't realize the rule about using a colon--it just seems like he wasn't reading the rules or paying attention. And since he unvoted because Neto pointed it out, it's possible that CSL was trying to avoid suspicion from Neto.

[Jahudo]

If scum were able to talk in pre-game then they might have discussed some strategy.

[Jahudo]

yabba has had a sudden drop-off in activity in this game, but he is posting in other games today. Why?

[Jahudo]

We should probably just get a Cass replacement. There's hardly anything for a replacement to read, so it should be easy to find one.

[Jahudo]

what topic?

I don't think anybody is the best decision now. We should see what Cass/replacement thinks about what has happened so far.

And somehow give this game some life...

[Jahudo]

who did? Cass?

Normally town should be energized by such an easy lynch, which might explain why Cass has lost interest if she picked up the prod but hasn't yet posted anything.

[Jahudo]

Ah. I thought you meant that Khel saw Cass pick up the pm.

[Jahudo]

Haven't seen it in a long time. I'm wondering if Paranormal Activity lives up to the hype?

[Jahudo]

Um, what made you change your mind in the span of 1 minute, ABR?

[Jahudo]

And why do you want to no lynch?

[Jahudo]

yay, game on

[Jahudo]

This'll probably be obvious but I'm interested to hear China's opinions on:

1. CSL's interactions with other people
2. Other people's interactions with CSL
3. Do points 1 and 2 make Neto look more town than us, about the same, or something else.
4. Jahudo vs. yabbaguy suspicions... if either one of us looks suspicious for being suspicious.

[Jahudo]

"Neither of us looking suspicious" is always an option, but I'd rather phrase the conversation in a way that helps to find the scum, rather than the town.

And I did am not referring to any dichotomy that did not already exist as a result of our scumhunting.

[Jahudo]

What was Net's case against Cass? I had some concern for her early on but I never called her scummy.

@china: can you elaborate your read on yabba? Is he just town for not doing anything scummy or anti-town, or is he town for doing something pro-town?

[Jahudo]

I still think Neto looks town for the reason previously specified.

China looks town to me so far because he went after Neto, who we had started to find town before our scumhunting dropped off altogether. I believe he would have read this and changed course as scum. Examples:

I thought the doubtful tone of this FoS was strange initially, but now I'm using this as evidence for Neto being town.

Without any counterclaims on the table, it's a toss-up between Jahudo and Cass. Netopalis appears town to me

And ABR voted yabba around that time but didn't mention Neto.

Yabba is still my number 1 suspect and I have new suspicions to lay out:

Without any counterclaims on the table, it's a toss-up between Jahudo and Cass...
Cass isn't a name I have surfaced with before, but I remember one of her posts pinging scummy to me overnight. I'll look back.

He never explained what post pinged him as scummy. Until he does, I'm looking into the possibility that this is a scum tactic to move along help push a case without evidence.

In fact I don't think he's done a single pro-town thing today and managing the call for a counter-claim doesn't count. This has no purpose either:

Khamisa's kill brings up a lot of inferences for me, but I'm spinning in WIFOM logic circles right now thinking about those inferences.

And I'll keep thinking this until yabba gets back into the game today.

Vote: Yabbaguy

to L-1.

[Jahudo]

omg, what if I was doc? I'm vanilla, but still.

However, saying that I haven't done a single pro-town thing is total crap

FOR DAY 2 ONLY. I didn't say all game. If you feel like I was wrong, prove it by quoting yourself. If you gave a reasonable defense, I would have backed off. My scumhunting style is like berating, but I feel its effective.

China is obvscum for that super fast turnaround from wanting to lynch yabba to wanting to lynch me. If he's not scum, he's ruined the game because I don't see how you guys could vote for somebody else now.

And if Neto and China both claim doc, Neto's telling the truth.

[Jahudo]

These two statements don't seem to fit:

I'm pretty sure our mafia roleblocker is Vote: Net

I think it's a good read tbh. He was my number one pick after my read through honestly.

291- I don't know what "just having fun" is supposed to mean.

There's a slight chance that this is his playstyle, like if you've ever played with zwetschenwasser he'll hammer people because its fun. That should not be a good defense for him tomorrow.

And watch out for a counterclaimed doc after a no kill night.

[Jahudo]

I tell you guys what, give me a chance tomorrow to explain myself, then if you want to lose the game, you can lynch after that ok?

LOL. I haven't flipped yet. You practically just outed yourself by knowing I was town.

[Jahudo]

Which means I really am vanilla

I'm sorry I was wrong about you yabba

[Jahudo]

This game did not have good scumhunting, and I take some of the blame for that. I wanted to get a good read on yabba first, but probably ended up giving others a pass for too long. Looking back, there were things I could have brought up from Neto that I could have made a case out of, but that's also with hindsight.

Good job playing shorthanded Neto.