Open 160 Bird 7P (GAME!) - before 823

[Charnel]

vote VP Baltar

could you explain why?

[Charnel]

well, if you gave the reasons, I would be a lot happier with it. Since you said it was for real... I figured there were reasons.

[Charnel]

There are reasons.

yay...

but if you are protown, why wouldn't you give them, so I could see how awesome your vote is?

[Charnel]

Charnel: it's in exceedingly poor taste to try and tear down a wagon. I like baltar's vote and I understand the reasoning.

I know you're trying to be helpful but it would actually be better if you simply hopped on the wagon or waited until he has a chance to respond. The reasons for the votes will become clear to you after he wakes up.

I guess I can wait that long.

[Charnel]

vote VP Baltar

could you explain why?

would you like it spoon fed to you?

o, this is the experienced guy. Sorry to be relatively new, sir. Now it would be nice if you didn't try to gain any superiority, and just played the game.

[Charnel]

Wait... you seriously believe that I am pushing for a no lynch?

why only post this now? and if answers are so easy, why didn't you give them? Since this is just a single sentence, that you hope removes some pressure. It actually doesn't add a lot to the game, being a oneliner.

unvote vote muzzz

way too often talking about random-vote-theory.

and while he is mostly attacking BC(asked already multiple times for him to answer, and one attack (inconsistency) , he has still his random vote around.

[Charnel]

you found the only two reactions on your post?

and you found a new way to start a theory discussion...

would you please make a next post?

[Charnel]

the previous was at octupis

@Charnel: my vote isn't random. It never was.

ok. Then you vote yabba, because? I had the impression that it was a random vote that was kept later.

and why all the fluff about random votes?

[Charnel]

Main points against Yabba:
- Not participating in the RVS.
- Pretending people can't be scummy from the get-go.

Contrary to popular belief, you can occasionally make scum slip by engaging them in theory debates.

point two is debated by Yabba.

and the last I disagree with you about. It is also an easy place for scum to hide in. -> possibly active lurking.

@yabba. I missed a big portion of page two, that I reread later. That gave me a bit of an odd read on the game. The reason why I still needed to know the case from Muzzz.

[Charnel]

@Charnel: do I look like I need something to hide in?

well, it could be.

lets say you were a mason-vig, then you don't want to give too much away about the game. Since we disagree about the use of theory discussion as an aid for finding scum.

[Charnel]

@Charnel: let me rephrase that question. Do you think that my play, on the whole, looks like that of someone trying to hide behind theory fluff?

that, and adding pressure on BC, without following it with your vote, while you are more serious then on Yabba.

[Charnel]

@BC: I must say that I don't take your posting serious if you are in such a state.

@yabba: I havent seen that, I only have seen him in isolation, and there are a few post adding pressure on BC, and one argument against him (an inconsistency).

in any way, a lot more then "he didn't random vote"

[Charnel]

I don't need to slow down. There isn't 5 mysterious people in this game that we haven't heard from yet. We've heard from EVERYONE at this point.

I doubt you have heard from Octupis, who hasn't given any opinion on the game.

and don't tunnel, but you have a point with the defence of your attack that yabba knew more. It is scummy. Yabba moved up my list.

[Charnel]

I doubt you have heard from Octupis, who hasn't given any opinion on the game.

Pay attention. He posted last night.

with answering two reactions on his random vote, and a random question about voting to you, IIRC.


those are not opinions.

[Charnel]

you have a point with the defence of your attack that yabba knew more.

Charnel, explain this for me. What quote of yabba's indicated he has inside knowledge and explain how that quote means he has inside knowledge.

I didn't like his sarcastic defense. That is a scummy way to defend it, and means that hohum is more likely right in his assumption that yabba is scum.


and on that "playing the newby card": I didn't. I reacted on a post where I felt treated like a newby, and felt the need to react on that "experienced" guy. The reason why I also told that I didn't like him trying to look superior. It is far from playing the newby card.

and hohum: it won't help you a bit. You haven't played with me yet, and the only reason that I play under this account is because I wanted to try to improve my town game, without getting meta problems.

[Charnel]

Hohum, you are surprisingly aggressive for a person who could have looked at all the games VP and I posted together in: I am also known as Mykonian.

I am suspicious of Charnel and BloodCovenent at the moment.

great opening. You pick the two players mostly noticed by all in the last page. Now lets see why. You start with me:

Charnel-I would also like to know who you are the alt of. You have been active lurking for most of the game, have been making certain mistakes

1

which I would not expect from experienced players. The fact you hide behind the guise of a newbie creates suspicion, because if you were town you would not pretend to be a newbie which can hinder the town

2

. Pretending to be inexperienced and new would make you less of a target because some of your scummy behaviour might just be put down to you being new.

Fos Charnel

Didn't even take the trouble to read my reaction on it, doesn't care. I didn't pretend that, and if you read what my reaction is on, you wouldn't have said this: blatantly following VP's attack without reading the defense.

and I have no idea where you get the gut from to accuse people of lurking:

vote Octupis

hypocrite and follower.

1

Asking for reasons for VP Baltar's vote on BloodCovenent when it was obvious.

I'd like a why, even if it is on a selfvote, or a no-lynch vote: so I can check it. I don't care what is obvious, I want it to be said. Plus, on page 1, there are far worse questions to make.

I will tentatively

Unvote

for now, although I am suspicious of Charnel, that was a joke vote so I feel it neccesary to remove it now we have left the RVS.

What a mess you make here: later you even need to tell us it is a pressure vote, just to be sure we won't attack you for weak reasoning. Can I order a lynch please?

[Charnel]

I realised VP Baltar wanted to pressure Charnel but I had unvoted meaning little pressure would be applied. I revoted Charnel to pressure him thus aiding the town. VP Baltar's post has not altered my opinion on Charnel, I am still as unsure as I was when I unvoted because I only had suspicions. I have revoted, not because VP Baltar's post gave me confidence but I saw that he wanted to pressure Charnel so I used my vote to do so and hopefully get some more information for the town.

If you know I'm not a newby, then don't treat me like one! "oh, I pressure him with my vote, now he will tell me everything seeing I am so treathening"

get real: you only say it is a pressure vote to actually make clear it is not seriously for a lynch, and therefor it doesn't work.

Also, I see you have been using your vote an awful lot to pressure people[/sarcasm]

I see you did a lot of scumhunting[/sarcasm] you actually waited for VP and Hohum to do the job for you.

[Charnel]

I didn't like his sarcastic defense. That is a scummy way to defend it, and means that hohum is more likely right in his assumption that yabba is scum.

I'm more interested in the "inside knowledge" part however, because I don't see where that is coming from and you agreed with it. Cite the quote for me and point out how it implies that yabba has inside knowledge.

it was the point he was defending

It is far from playing the newby card.

While I agree that acting superior based on time on site is annoying and is fair to be called out, what bothered me was you saying:

Sorry to be relatively new, sir.

You directly state that you're new on the site, which is playing the noob card to me. I don't like it.

and the fact that I actually attack the person treating me like a newby, and say I don't like it doesn't make this point null?

[Charnel]

what do you think about VP Baltar's post 115 because you call me a follower but you don't actually dispute what I am agreeing with.

Since when do I agree with VP's points against me?

Also maybe you should read my post. I called you out on active lurking yet I concede I was lurking through the first few pages as I had a funeral to attend on thursday and was not up to much posting on friday. I make a distinction between active lurking and lurking, as I said you were active lurking and I was lurking that doesn't make me a hypocrite because the two things are different.

and why was I active lurking: because I didn't like your lurking, and Muzzz his theory discussion? Because I gave my opinions on players? this is an empty, and easy made accusation. You accuse me of doing nothing, while I don't see what you have done yourself.

I am doing a damn more scumhunting than you are. It is widely agreed that you are just offering colour commentary which is not really helpful, yet when you get a little bit of pressure you attack me for agreeing for VP, but you don't have a thing to say about him.

you are scumhunting? where? you are only following VP and Hohum, and bringing nothing new. You actually told you were just doing that.

I will tentatively

Unvote

for now, although I am suspicious of Charnel, that was a joke vote so I feel it neccesary to remove it now we have left the RVS.

What a mess you make here: later you even need to tell us it is a pressure vote, just to be sure we won't attack you for weak reasoning. Can I order a lynch please?

In the second of Charnel's quotes, he basically says that the only reason a vote could be justified is if the voter wanted the target to be lynched. I disagree, pressuring is evidence of this. In the last quote he says that I only said that my vote was to pressure him because otherwise my reasoning would be weak, but in accordance with the above point, if my vote was not for pressuring, which I claimed it was, it would be for to lynch Charnel. The two quotes don't coincide, they contradict each other because Charnel thinks the only reason I should vote for him is if I want him to be lynched and then says that if I claimed that it wasn't, my reasoning would be weak. Which is it Charnel because as I see it, I cannot win, whatever I do, I would be inherently wrong.

WTH. No way. You actually think that telling the world you vote is for pressure makes that pressure real? No, you are making clear to the world your vote isn't serious. It has nothing to do with pressure.

[Charnel]

@BC-120: I see no way VP and Charnel are scumbuddies.

Plus, this suspicion of Octupis hatched a moment ago, while meanwhile, people have been consistently suspicious of you Charnel. This sounds like scum trying to end the Day so that they get their votes wiped away.

consistently? you all needed VP to misread that "newby card" and now you actually debate if it really had the intention to stand up to BC thinking he was superior.

After D1, my thoughts:

hohum >>> obvtown

Baltar >>> town

muzzz >>> leaning town

BC >>> speculating town

Charnel >>> scummy

Octupis >>> tilting scummy

Vote: Charnel

@BC-120: I see no way VP and Charnel are scumbuddies.

Does this mean you are scum?

[Charnel]

Octupis, I see what I missed.

Sorry to be

relatively

new, sir.

You directly state that you're new on the site, which is playing the noob card to me. I don't like it.

I actually tried to prevent this with that "relatively". Guess it didn't work

on the other hand, why would I have put it there otherwise?

[Charnel]

If I read your question correctly, then yes, I have problems with that. It is easy for scum to wait and pick the right bandwagon.


and active lurking: yes I disagree. Maybe I am not as aggressive as Hohum, but mainly in questions, I have voiced opinions about muzz and you. I have not commented a lot on the big target, BC. Because that is how I see him.

Muzzz commented a lot on BC, but till recently, he stayed on yabba, because yabba didn't random vote. Why would he wait with going with his stronger suspicion? That was the point against Muzzz then, and since he hasn't done a lot lately, that is still the point.

[Charnel]

Aside from the contradiction I pointed out earlier, I don't really mind your suspicion of me. But I do mind you misconstruing my case against Yabba. I make my decisions based on what I find suspicious, and not just on the suspicions you happen to agree with.

I asked you then, and if I remember correctly, you said that the main point was that he had not random voted.

[Charnel]

was that really the hammer?

it wasn't, octupis had unvoted.

[Charnel]

whaaaaaaaaa

ok. Unconcentrated posting kills me. Hohum here is your proof.

[Charnel]

it seems to be getting my hobby.

FoS VP baltar

btw. You have an odd way of being on both great wagons, that both lead to L-1, or almost further, without getting noticed a lot. You "were fine" with the lynch on BC. You misread, or twisted the "newby card point" something that was in context an attack on someone treating me that way. But you didn't vote for that... no, you voted me because I thought yabba scummy for his defence against Hohum

that wasn't serious!

I could totally see a yabba-VP scumpair.

[Charnel]

just woke up, but: why would egruntz-scum reclaim in this position?

he wouldn't. So his claim is likely true. Sorry hohum, but you need to look more to other people.

[Charnel]

Actually one thing I notice upon reread was that Charnel never even made direct mention to the doc claim after it was made. Charnel, what were your feelings on it? Did you believe it? Why didn't you address it directly?

I waited for a counterclaim. Till that point, I brought the point that I have given continiously about BC: he is a target, and I don't believe in a lynch on him. Call it a defense (yabba/VP)

one thing weird is, that without a cc, yabba calls be suspect for defending BC

while not being on the wagon himself

vp/hohum/muzzz did it, IIRC.

Yabba's directing the cop is not town. Not in any way.

@hohum: as a newby, I once undid a uncc'ed copclaim when I replaced. So egruntz could be in the same position as me. In that situation are two things different: I replaced a newby, and he claimed in a very wrong way.

There was little wrong with this claim, and Egruntz did not need to make himself scummy by reclaiming.

therefor, I would like more yabba lynch, he is directing mislynches, while trying not to be too obvious, and staying off wagons. If I have time tomorrow, I make a case on him.

[Charnel]

@Charnel:

Did you believe it? Why didn't you address it directly?

I did answer.

I believe he is town that was made a target. And since I normally don´t expect townies to lie, I would have needed a cc to not believe it.

guess I was wrong there, but for some players this is an accepted play. However, if a new player that doesn´t share these ideas comes in, he might undo it. Otherwise I can´t see why he would do it. I can´t see this coming from scum, and I am way more suspicious of Yabba.

why didn't I address it? because there was incomplete information. I have said multiple times that I thought BC a towny that was made a target, I went even so far to say scum would be on him, and I waited if there was a cc to make a real judgement. Until that, I would talk about something I didn't know everything about.

In any way, a Egruntz lynch here is plain wrong. Lynching me is not a good idea either, although some people still need convincing, but we need to look at those other 4 players.

[Charnel]

And if he does flip VT?

If he does flip VT and I'm wrong, then we've simply been sunken by BC's stupidity, and we're likely going to lose this game anyways.

No, then we are looking at claims and stuff in stead of really scumhunting.

and if you read that quote about my newby game: I was scum there, rewinding a fakeclaim, but I say I think the situation is different here: there was IMO little need for a gambit like this from scum.

Hohum: there is no option I am going to get you into a lynch of someone else?

[Charnel]

Hohum: there is no option I am going to get you into a lynch of someone else?

You don't need my cooperation to lynch someone else. There's 5 other people in this game that you can convince to vote along side of you.

but since I think you are town, and town needs 4 out of 5 on a lynch, it is a good idea to have you there too. and I really have doubts about BC.

[Charnel]

Charnel: You seem to have done an about face in that last post regarding your stance on BC. Did post 266 strike a nerve, or what?

Agreed. Explanation very necessary. I'm ready to hammer pending this response.

I am sorry if I understand the question wrong, but I have said quite often that I thought BC a target, and more likely bad town then scum.

guess I was wrong, but still, that was my opinion. Early game (just after RVS) this was less clear, and I did not still know what way he would go, and as you kept asking, I answered in clearer and clearer statements that my feeling that it was a bad lynch.

I don't know how far I am yet in votes, but don't lynch me. I have some time till the guests come, and I have still to give you that promised case.

[Charnel]

Bloodcovenant >>> this could be for a few reasons.
a) he's scum who's trying to detract the town
b) he's misguided town
c) he's stirring up discussion. Mastin selfvotes during RVS consistently for this precise reason.

(I see post 37 now... just as I thought.)

Assuming a) automatically is jumping to conclusions.

not his whole post, but not out of context:

Here yabba logically analyses BC's play. He makes three options, first two short, and not really obvious, and the third already with an argument. He is indirectly defending BC, by making one option more likely.

Your response indicates tht you have some inside knowledge of the setup.

I'll confess, I know everything. I can truthfully tell you that there are 2 goons, a cop, a doc who can't save the cop, and 3 townies.

You were right, I knew it. Kudos.

and sarcasm seems to be yabba's way to react on unexpected pressure. He discards the accusation by pretending he doesn't take it seriously.

I'll ask again, why do you think I should find you "somewhat suspicious"? Also, what do you mean by "inside knowledge" of the setup? I truly don't know what you mean.

and seen the sarcastic answer last time, this is a blatant lie. (was his response on Hohum)

I feel that yabba is doing this too, and it irritates me.

FOS: Bloodcovenent

(he's at L-2 already, if I counted correctly. If it's lower, I'll make it a vote.)

This is where I start to believe you're detached from the game on a level that seems scummy. First off, you're springboarding off a comment which made no mention to you, which is bizarrely opportunistic, and secondly, how in the world do you come up with that conclusion? Love me or hate me, saying that I've been coming up with nothing but fluff is completely incorrect.

Where am I just doing color commentary?

not even a vote. He hasn't made one. But still, here he tells the town he has the intention to vote. He waits though. Hesitates is probably the better word.

In his next post he puts me at L-1... Saying this about BC:

@BC-116: I have never used gay as an insult. Ever.

Also, a lot of people have addressed several times that dodging a question is just that, you dodged a question. Maybe you overlooked it, but really, there's no way of knowing that. Fact of the matter, you got a response.

Having a second look, I don't see how scum would be this abrasive. Ironically enough, I'm now inclined to think that BC is towntelling, because usually I would think the scum would try to be a little more on the down-low instead of tripping everyone's wires. He's been a bit useless, but I think he's just weak-town, honestly.

and so he gets his mislynch, and hopes to save his buddy.


next we get Hohum's almost hammer, and yabba's next post contains:

@BC-151: You don't even factor in the possibility that hohum's town who just misread the topic. Like you. You missed the Unvote. I almost missed it myself. You're being hypocritical in that hohum could very well have made the same honest mistake you just admitted to.

Change:

BloodCovenent >>>

speculative town

tilting scummy

Still, my vote rests on Charnel because I want to know why he tried to ask for a lynch on someone else when he's under some pressure himself. I think he was in no position to do that. I'd rather have him over BC at present.

and he stays on me for a crap reason. He does that so he might save his buddy. However, if that fails, he found BC scummy, so there is nothing wrong with bussing.

This isn't Survivor: Mafiascum, hohum. If you're voting based on the weakest player or whoever's "doing it wrong", well, you're doing it wrong.

Good night everyone.

and next: a full defense of BC, while 2 posts above this one he found him tilting scummy!

After that, he attacks me for placing my vote in the middle of a post.

Charnel's defense of BCgruntz is suspect. The "sorry, try again" statement is irking me.

Seeing as now we *do* have to factor in town stupidity with our claim, my suggestion, lynch Char, investigate gruntz.

and this would help scum in this case... Yabba is trying to direct the game so he gets a little advantage for scum.

and after Egruntz reclaims, yabba finally busses.

please, UNVOTE, and take time to read this!

[Charnel]

claim

confirmed town.

Being so problematic yesterday, I got investigated. The doc was also kind of clear, which makes this game with one mislynch to go an easy win. NO quicklynch, massclaim will win us this game.

[Charnel]

unvote first, then we can talk.

and because he told you.

[Charnel]

Charnel: it isn't time to mass claim. We're not in lylo yet.

Lylo is too late: you can't be wrong on the Pr's anymore:

now, with one mislynch, we have a few options:

One cop, one doc, one confirmed, one normal towny, and:

A a fakeclaiming scum as doc: lynch both docs for the win
B a fakeclaiming scum as cop: lynch both cops for the win
C a fakeclaiming scum as towny: lynch both townies for the win.

There is no way out for scum anymore.

[Charnel]

If we're not in lylo, and we have 2 power roles with 1 scum alive, then it's to our advantage to wait for claims. I'd rather not provide fodder for the scum team if we mislynch today.

then we are right for sure in lylo: whe know who fakeclaimed.

and it is going to be yabba.

[Charnel]

I want to hear from Octu. It's up to him whether we claim today or not.

Why are you refusing to cooperate with anyone's questioning at L-1? That's not a productive way to save yourself.

hohum, different timeszones? and my birthday. I should sleep now, and I am not going to reply yabba's pulled together attack, as a few points are already defended before, a few things are twisted, and some are simply pulled together to look scummy.

Hohum, want me to claim the game for you? As someone who already claimed, I would like to propose an order of claiming:

yabba, octupis, VP, hohum. Everybody happy, and in the end we have scum for certain. Can you see that hohum? We just get the result from the cop and this game is over.

[Charnel]

I'm really tempted to hammer right now, but Baltar is also pushing for this claim and you can't both be scum.

guess who the cop is?

He is

not

the doc.

[Charnel]

don't lynch me, but I am going to sleep. First time I will post is after work, probably in 13 hours.

[Charnel]

I want to hear from Octu. It's up to him whether we claim today or not.

Why are you refusing to cooperate with anyone's questioning at L-1? That's not a productive way to save yourself.

hohum, different timeszones? and my birthday.

I call major bullshit on that:

unvote first, then we can talk.

and because he told you.

Looks like outright refusal to me.

Is it my birthday? See before my case.

now stop tunneling, and listen to the logical things about massclaim that I say. I can't mess with you there.

[Charnel]

I'm really tempted to hammer right now, but Baltar is also pushing for this claim and you can't both be scum.

guess who the cop is?

He is

not

the doc.

Seriously?

I can't even begin to describe the level of seething ominous scum you are for that post.

and still you are wrong

[Charnel]

It's become readily apparent after this game that in this setup, not having a D1 PR claim is critical to the town's success. So critical in fact that a PR claim on D1 should be an automatic lynch.

Or scum missed the fact that massclaim could happen.

[Charnel]

vote Yabba

lets hope this is over

[Charnel]

and his play around BC was very convinced, without a counterclaim.

[Charnel]

That's Charnel thinking Oct was cop, if you ask me.

Mod

, does the investigation subject know they're investigated?

no, VP was very obvious with his first post, and seen earlier, it fitted in his play. I had basically no read at Oct.

[Charnel]

something like that:

vote Octupis