Mini 816: Revenge of the Monkey(GAME OVER!)

[ryan2754]

/confirm

[ryan2754]

EBWOP:
Hey again dramonic, SB, and Dev

[ryan2754]

Vote: Snake

because, well, I don't like snakes.

[ryan2754]

Unvote, Vote: Dev

I always find it interesting when people Unvote RVS votes, then don't initially vote someone else. Why take the vote off? Also, gives no reason to unvote. Then I don't like his 49. Whether SB is town or scum its a scummy post, but trying to come off as humor.
SB was at L-3 or something. How in the world would he pull of a bandwagon voting in the middle? Maybe I am giving people too much credit, but I seriously doubt at that point in the game that anyone else was going to vote SB.

[ryan2754]

I will more than likely be V/LA this Friday and Saturday for my buddy's bachelor party. I will catch up on Sunday, when i get back from Indianapolis.
-Ryan

[ryan2754]

Sorry about my absence, certain RL issues have come to surface. I will catch up within the next couple of days.

[ryan2754]

Unvote

, for now.

Can anyone give me a rundown of the past couple pages? I pretty much got fed up reading the countless pages regarding bandwagons. Mainly, just would like a recount on the whole SC/Charter thing, and everyone's stances with regards to the issue.

I DO find Dev scummy for being worried about 4 votes.

I have found that more often than not, location on the bandwagon is often a null tell. Smart scum disperse themselves in the bandwagon differently each time, and at least dumb scum know not to hammer quickly. Either way, all this voting on theory opinion blows.

Many people have tunnelled, and others have scumhunted, while others are just chiming in about theory-speculation.

I agree with SB's attitude on dramonic.

Vote: dramonic

[ryan2754]

complaining about his "useless" argument with charlatan

Just for the record, Snake said that, not dramonic.

I agree with SB's attitude on dramonic.

Vote: dramonic

What? You haven't read the last few pages (in which all the dramonic stuff has pretty much taken place), but you're going to vote based on it?

I skimmed the parts about dramonic etc, and then read the most frequent page. I will give a thorough re-read within the next couple days, but I looked at the most recent posts, SB's accusation was right above my post. Not hard to understand.

[ryan2754]

Unvote: dramonic

Combining Devestation's "scumtell" on game theory and reluctance to scumhunt until he's off the hook, warrants a big fat

Vote: Devestation

[ryan2754]

Also, in case this day ends more quickly than I expect it to, let the record reflect that ryan's L-1 vote is scummy.

I am intrigued as to how so?

[ryan2754]

Picking up Prod.
I have been intending on doing a re-read, and hadn't got around to it until now.

For now,

Unvote

.

@Adam and charter: what are your thoughts on the RVS and its usefulness?

Looking back, this post strikes me as odd. Why just those individuals?

Albany Park?

unvote

btw.

Why the unvote?

Any reason for a third vote on me with no explanation when we are pretty much still in the RVS?

If it's RVS, is a "fake" or "ridiculous" reason necessary? This comes off as a little bit of fear. At three votes.

Here, have another vote!

Vote Scott Brosius

? I really don't know what to make of this. However, your response to Snake in 66 gives it more light, and makes sense to me.

You cant seriously expect to pull off a bandwagon lynch in the RVS...

Unvote so we don't have any accidents

Could see this as concerned townie, or scum appearing concerned townie.

What do you mean "doesn't excuse charter"? What is wrong with piling on the largest bandwagon?

Is this a serious question? The problem is, I feel this post is a null-tell, because I feel this is a bad post for scum and town alike to make. AKA agree with SC's 58.

I agree with Sajin's 63 about Dev. Then see my 65.

At this point, I found SB's interest at him being L-4 weird, as well as Charter's vote.

What do you mean set off your alarm? You think my bandwagoning was scummy, or what? I think bandwagons are extremely protown, the bigger, the better in my experience. If we brought Scott to L-2 or L-1 for no other reason than "just because" it would be much to my liking.

This can't be serious. It is one of the most asanine takes I've ever heard on bandwagons.

I don't think a quickhammer is as bad as people make it out to be. Also, you seem to write off the possibility of Scott being scum, in which case I don't think a quickhammer on him would be bad at all.

Sentence 1: Why?
Sentence 2: A blatantly obvious statement, yet trying to make it look like actual analysis.

I didn't say Scott wasn't scum. Quite frankly it's way to early to tell in his case. A quickhammer can be bad as it doesn't always guarantee scum and and a mislynch is rarely good, if ever.

More blatantly obvious statements.

Because everyone's vote was part of the RVS. You voted Scott without reason

and

said you think he's scum. When you don't provide a reason, it's scummy because it looks like you're only on the bandwagon to push a mislynch.

Extremely good point.

...and "just leaving it [the vote] there" will ultimately be more scummy in the long run. I'm much more worried about this pointless wagon against scott brosius.

Sentence 1: Keeping an RVS vote on until you find a real vote is not scummy at all, IMO. It seems like you are trying to overcompensate and look overly pro-town, and trying to look way into the future, thinking "Will someone eventually find this scummy?" Scummy behavior.
Sentence 2: Your unvote of snake happened before the bandwagon of SB. Thus, your unvote cannot be at all tied to the pointless wagon on SB, thus rendering this reasoning null and void. A wagon after your unvote can't be tied into the reason for your unvote.

No. When I voted him, I had no idea who was scum. Devastation's plea for people to unvote I found extremely scummy of him (almost enough to earn a lynch) and makes Scott look very scummy as well, even though Scott hasn't done hardly anything himself I find scummy.

I do agree it makes Dev look scummier, but for SB, it's a null tell, as his alignment is not dependant on Dev's "defense". It can be that Dev is buddying with town, or defending scumbuddy. AKA I agree with Snake's interpretation. Just because Dev defended SB, doesn't make SB scummier at all. It makes Dev scummier, completely independant of SB's alignment. What I am saying is, that I completely dislike your reason for finding SB scummy (because Dev defended him). It's a null tell.

Devastation is trying to stop others from scumhunting by quashing this wagon. He is trying to rob us of Scott's reactions to a large wagon on himself. If Scott crumbles under the pressure and one or two people come to his aide, looks like we have ourselves some scum. If he ignores it, knowing that nothing will actually come from five votes on him with no reason given, I'm much more inclined to think he's town.

I think this perception is slightly jaded.

How do you say I'm scummy and trying to push a mislynch? In the post where I voted, there's nothing that says I'm trying to push a mislynch. Nowhere in any of my posts do I say or imply that. Here you have taken up the assumption Scott can't be scum, for all I know Scott is scum.

WIFOM. I do think Snake's use of the word mislynch is intriguing, because it does seem to imply he knows Scott isn't scum.

I thought my reason was pretty self explainatory, I was just bandwagoning. Yeah, bandwagoning is very protown, best way of scumhunting in the RVS I know of. If you wagon someone fast for no reason, you get to see their reactions (and those of other people) which is great for determining their alignment. There's no way we have a jester, and if we do, fuck this game then.

I can see your point of view, but you seem to be taking it to too much of an extreme for me. Not indicative of alignment, but of game theory. Yeah, but wagoning fast for no reason also makes you look scummier.

I think Konowa is strawmanning Snake hardcore. In my opinion, toy both are misinterpreting the situation. Konowa thinks Snake thinks that Dev's deflation of RVS wagon is not scummy. What snake is trying to say is that he (and I agree) thinks that Charter's vote staying on SB because Dev defended him is scummy. Again, I already have said how I feel about Dev's defense of SB: Makes Dev scummier, and is not dependant on SB's alignment. Dev, if scum, is either defending town to gain town points if SB is lynched, or trying to defend scumbuddy. The former seems more likely, as scum have more information (knowing alignments) and can act accordingly.

Dramonic asking why there are so many lynch candidates after RVS, and that people need to act accordingly, while keeping his vote without explaining why is scummy. Looks like he is scrounging for information.

StrangerCoug, you seem deathly afraid of losing a townie, to the point where I think you are scum trying too hard to appear town. I don't want to lose townies either, but as I already stated, sometimes this helps in the long run. Scum please feel free to attempt to use this to vote me under the guise that I don't care about losing townies.

Unvote, Vote:StrangerCoug

Agree on everything here. In the long run, if a townie is lost early (which statistically happens more often than not) one can look later at how other's reacted/defended/attacked/buddied them, after their alignment is revealed. This information helps.


Also, SC even admits to voting someone for their game theory.

I cant believe people are still voting Dev. Seriously, he's about as scummy as a can of tuna fihs (that's not scummy, by the way)

Why do you think he isn't scummy? Who do you think IS?

no, I'm voting because Charter is writing messages to aliens with his burning grass.

Honestly, I currently have no other good target for my vote, so I'd rather it stays on a player I find anti-town. I could put it on SC too, but Charter is more anti-town to me.

I don't want him lynched, but pressure is always a good thing. I'll unvote if we get too close to lynching.

Your vote is currently null n' void now.
If you don't want him lynched, why vote him? Pressure, huh? Announcing it removes it. Seems like fencesitting.

By the end of page 6, it seems almost all of the votes in this game are for game theory.

I see, I don't consider that particularly scummy though.

Well, now that we're clear on that, if one of the 5 lurkers could post something analysis worth... considering their ridiculously low amount of posts, they better have good cases coming up.

Seems like a little bit of deflecting.

As SC points out in 204, Dev's posts about his opinions on the game don't add up. Dev doesn't want to lynch Charter, and thinks SC is scummy for wanting to, but find Charter's opinion the biggest scumtell. So you and SC both think Charter's stance is a scumtell, but you consider SC suspicious for it? Very contradictory. Dev's 209 is a clear deflection.


I completely dislike Charter's scumpairing on page 9: it's way too early for that. Not to mention, I am under the general notion that scumpairing early is anti-town and scummy. It's like saying "If X is town, Y MUST be scum," which is not always the case. Also, if one shows up town, it's implied you think the other is town, which is not necessarily true.

I do like Charter's 230 though, attacking dramonic. Dramonic's response is noteworthy as well with his confirm vote on Charter. OMGUS?

By the way, just as a reminder, let's make sure we all remember to look at loud people tomorrow. It's probably a pretty safe bet that scum will whack someone active to leave us with lurkers, so it will be worth noting. If StrangerCoug is killed, for instance, ask yourself why myself, Charter, et al were not, etc.

Really? Night speculation before it happens? Wow.

Sorry, I thought you said that the biggest scumtell of anyone is who they have voted.

Also, I was thinking about the general inactivity of the people playing this game, as the last post that I had read before making that post had the writer commenting about it.




Claim time.

I am a cop. Each night I can determine the alignment of one other player. I win when everyone opposed to the town are dead.

Ugh. Cop claim. Great. Do I still think Dev is scum? Yes. Do I think he is Cop? No. His play as of yet is clearly NOT indicative of cop play.

Ugh. How did I freakin' know he was going to claim something good.

unvote, vote dramonic

I'm not cop.

Devestation, how did you come up with the wording you used there? Is it all your own words or was it a paraphrase? Why did you not claim before? Why did you need time to think about it?

NO ONE COMMENT ON THAT, EXCEPT DEVESTATION!!!

If you don't answer this soon, I'm going to revote you no matter what, because dodging this question practically guarantees you're scum.

I also think it would be best if everyone can claim cop or not cop as fast as possible and assuming that doesn't take too long, keep discussion to a minimum.

Reasoning for voting dramonic after unvote, given your stance on Dev?

Also D1 cop/not cop proposition is extremely scummy.

Completely agree.

You don't think we should see if there is a counter?

It's D1. In NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM should a cop CC on D1. Ever.

I think it's dumb to lynch an uncountered cop day one. Either everyone claims cop or not cop and we can lynch him if someone counters, or no one says anything on it and we lynch someone else and deal with Devestation on a later day if he's still around.

Everyone keeping their mouth shut and then lynching an uncountered cop is too idiotic to comprehend in my book. This is why I don't understand why you guys are A) keeping your vote on Devestation and B) refusing to see if there is a counterclaim. If no one wants to claim cop/not cop, that's fine, but we shouldn't lynch Devestation today.

unvote, vote dramonic

since it wasn't in the last votecount.

I'm still kind of torn now with the Dev situation. No doubt we should NOT have a CC D1. At the same time, I would normally say "D1 Cop Claim shouldn't be lynched." But I just can't avoid the fact that Dev's responses and situation up to his claim to not make sense to me at all. Refusing to defend himself, etc. is not cop play.

Devestation, how did you come up with the wording you used there? Is it all your own words or was it a paraphrase?
-Paraphrase

Why did you not claim before?
-Nobody wanted me to and I didnt think I was actually going to be lynched yet (I'm always a little like that).

Why did you need time to think about it?
-Because I wasnt sure whether I wanted to bother. Every time I post something I run into a brick wall that nobody else seems to run into, and a really strong, sadistic and anti-town part of me wants ya'll to find out what I am the hard way to get back at you for it. Yes, Cop <-> Town communication is at an all time low. *Insert RATM music here*

Pretty basic paraphrase. It's slightly different from mine, but since it's so basic, it's a null tell at this point, especially since he says paraphrase.
Almost everyone wanted a claim.
All are very not-cop behaviors.

SC answering for Sajin in 275 is noted, especially since dramonic specifically asked Sajin.

Charter does try and elicit rolefishing with the copclaim on D1.

I generally agree with Charlatans 287. The thing is, Charlatan says his role PM is exactly like Dev's, yet Dev paraphrased. Which means it necessarily isn't exactly like yours. Not to mention, mine is different from what both of you said. Thus, that statement from Charlatan I find as slightly scummy. Charlatan says his role PM is EXACTLY like Dev's PARAPHRASE, and asks town players to look. Well, mine is different than both of yours. Just something to sink our teeth into.

So, who do I think is scummy?
Dev, dramonic, Charter, and just slightly Konowa and SC.

So what is Dev at, right now? And Charter, as well?
AKA I'd like to see a vote count. Not to mention avoid a no-lynch.

[ryan2754]

My issues since my last post:

Charlatan reconfirms that his role PM is EXACTLY like Dev's PARAPHRASE. If he is paraphrasing, he is not using the actual text. To say yours is EXACTLY like his then makes me very suspicious.

Dev's Paraphrase: "I win when everyone opposed to the town are dead."
Charlatan says he doesn't beleive claim.
Then, next page, says he's unwilling to lynch Dev, and decides to go after Charter.
Charlatan then responds to my lengthy post saying his content is not the same as Dev's, but the WC is identical (Of course, if you are both town, the WC is identical-duh. Or you both could be scum trying to remove Dev from this dangerous situation). He then later says, "I win when all threats are wiped out or them being killed off is inevitable." Says the second part is different from Dev's.

From my perspective, this is conversation this will eventually be vital later on. However, right now, it doesn't give us much, as there is so much paraphrasing going on with regards to the actual text (agreeing with SC).

Granted, I still don't like Charter's rolefishing. Don't think lynching a non-CC'd cop first day is a good idea, with other scummy members.

Also, my win condition is probably the same as Charlatan's, unless he's very lucky scum, as his paraphrase is accurate with my WC.

"you win when all threats are eliminated or if their defeat is inevitable"

Note the use of the word "probably". This makes the sentence feel very weird and awkward.

His is eerily similar to Charlatan's but is again, paraphrasing, IMO, as I feel people would be afraid of a modkill for quoting it (Another reason why these words can't be taken as golden).

SC, I see what you are saying about answering the Sajin issue that I questioned about.

My personal win condition is very similar to dramonic's, and Charlatan's to a degree. Thus, I find charter scummy for trying to push dramonic in post 302.

Of all the win conditions, Dev's is most lacking, and thus the most suspicious given my own condition.

However, I don't think lynching a non-CC'd cop first day is a good idea, with other scummy members, like Charter.

On first day, charter's rolefishing and recent posts make him the most suspicious, and knowing his alignment will have the added effect of helping town immensely.

Mine has a pretty important clause before it talks about how I actually win. I'd think if you were town you would have noticed it and included it.

Hmmm....I'm not seeing it. I have another sentence before that part of my role, but not an important clause that you speak of. If indeed, your clause is my sentence (could be likely), then I don't see the point in including it, at all, given the context of the issue.

I also really like Konowa's 309 and 310. Given Charter's response in 313, it makes me further believe Charter is scummy. If you yourself are one of the bandwagons, why would you not try and stay alive and vote someone that you not only find scummy, but also the other leading bandwagon, if you are indeed town and find dev scummier? At this point before the deadline, holding your vote on dramonic is pointless, plain and simple: an anti-town behavior.

Vote: Charter

[ryan2754]

My issues since my last post:

Charlatan reconfirms that his role PM is EXACTLY like Dev's PARAPHRASE. If he is paraphrasing, he is not using the actual text. To say yours is EXACTLY like his then makes me very suspicious.

Did you actually read the post in question? I didn't say that at all. I said the

content

of my win condition is the same, not the wording. And then I corrected myself because I had neglected to remember the second part.

Re-read those few posts. It definitely makes more sense now. Mea culpa.

Charlatan says he doesn't beleive claim.
Then, next page, says he's unwilling to lynch Dev, and decides to go after Charter.

Why is this a problem for you? I don't believe the claim. I'm unwilling to lynch Dev today.

This is because -- shocker -- I've been wrong before, and if I'm wrong on this one as well, then we'd lose a cop. I'm not in a hurry.

It isn't a problem, really. You even later in your post admit to the fact that my information is just a summary, and that was my point. I was getting lost in who claimed what text/paraphrase/etc. and wanted to jott in down in a simple manner. So yes, it is mainly objective. So I really don't have a problem with it. I'm not discrediting your point of view about Dev (which I agree it would be dumb to lynch a cop claim D1 at this point).

Charlatan then responds to my lengthy post saying his content is not the same as Dev's, but the WC is identical (Of course, if you are both town, the WC is identical-duh. Or you both could be scum trying to remove Dev from this dangerous situation). He then later says, "I win when all threats are wiped out or them being killed off is inevitable." Says the second part is different from Dev's.

Not only are you not making any points and instead just summarizing what's happening, but you're not even doing it accurately. Of course the second part is different from Dev's, because Dev didn't have a second part. And even before I corrected myself, the point that our WC was the same (which you dismiss with a lolworthy "duh") is hugely important, because Charter said his did not resemble it at all.

I don't think you understand - I completely agree with your last sentence here. You seem to think much of what I said in that post is attacking you, when (even you admit) that it is fairly objective and a summary, which I agreed with. And I noted that Charter says his does not resemble this. You are defending yourself from me when I am not really attacking you. It was mainly an objective post. Granted, I did misinterpret a few of your posts, but I now see where I was in err. I already admitted that I wasn't making many points with it, but was just summarizing it for myself and others so they don't have to go back and re-read different people's role texts.

I understand that Dev didn't have a second part. That doesn't make it any less different. Dev not having a second part IS different than yours.

[ryan2754]

Sajin and ryan mostly. Dram and SC have been vocally suspicious of charter all day, charlatan to a lesser extent. Dev has his theory vote, . But as I said, the votes are coming too easy too late for my comfort.

1.) Read 293. Again. It was my retake/re-read on the game, as I admit to not putting much effort into the game since then (it was my first post in 4 pages, and first substantial post all game really). Since I wasn't really up to date on the game, a re-read was necessary when I had some time, and I did it, and, if you read my post, I mention Charter as one of my top 3 for scum.

2.) Too easy too late? Umm, have you missed the last page where Charter completely contradicts, well, almost everyone's role text?

scummy unwilling-to-claim player lynch >>>> uncountered cop claim lynch D1 >>>> no lynch.
I disagree with Charter's idea that trading cop for scum D1 is a good play. You lose a power role D1, with no investigation results. Sure, a given cop may only get 1 scum read per game (maybe 2), but he ALSO gets around 1-3 TOWN confirms, which definitely helps, and thus unbalances the "losing cop D1 for 1 scum" argument.. It's asanine to lynch unclaimed cop D1 and asanine to think trading cop on D1 for scum is smart.

[ryan2754]

Sorry for my absence.
Between a wedding this weekend, my Uncle and my GF's uncle dying this week, it's been pretty hectic.

Dram, are you talking about this sentence?

It's asanine to lynch unclaimed cop D1 and asanine to think trading cop on D1 for scum is smart.

I do not beleive Dev's claim at all.

I really do not understand Konowa's resistance to giving investigation results, but that's just me. Maybe I just don't understand the scenario him and dram discussed, as I am still slightly confused. The way I see it, at this point, since you are outted, giving your result will only take one more person out from the mix of suspects. Doing that as early as possible (after outing yourself) has always been the course of action I have seen in my games, especially because of the possibility of being lynched the next day, like dram points out.

Either way, one of them is now lying. I think Dev is the one lying. He has dodged question about WHY he investigated Charlatan (seems like a terrible choice is he is fakeclaiming cop), but is also trying to diverge the conversation onto OMGUS.


What does everyone think about Dev's supposed investigation on Charlatan?

[ryan2754]

I only want konowa to state his innocent if we all agree that Devestation is telling the truth about Charlatan. That way we will have 3 confirmed townies (kon, char and kon's investigation) and one scum (dev) out of 10 players alive. That leaves 6 unknowns with most likely 2 scum amongst them.

Personally, I don't think we can take Dev's word on Charlatan as gold, at all. I too believe he would be true with his result, but hey, that's just me, but we can't put it past him to do that witha scumpartner.

So we all seem to have differing opinions on cop outting. I recently played a game with a doc and no cop, and a cop with no doc, and I am pretty sure they were minis. Thus, the chance in and of itself that there isn't a doc makes me want Konowa to say who it is. Granted, I see his case about there being a doc, but I am just not willing to take that chance if we can get someone in the clear as opposed to konowa dying in the instance there is no doc.

Scenarios:
1 - No Doc, Konowa withholds Investigation, and Dies. 0 CONFIRMED TOWN
2 - No Doc, Konowa gives Investigation, and Dies. 1 CONFIRMED TOWN
3 - Doc, Konowa withholds Investigation, and Dies (Ignorant Doc). 0 CONFIRMED TOWN
4 - Doc, Konowa withholds Investigation, someone Dies/No One Dies due to protect. 2 CONFIRMED TOWN TOMORROW*
5 - Doc, Konowa tells Investigation, Guessing Game with scum/doc protect. 1 CONFIRMED TOWN TOMORROW.

Telling the information (Scenarios 2 and 5) in my opinion outweigh withholding the information (1, 3, and 4) due to the possibility of a 67% chance of getting 0 confirmed town.

Also, given the gamestate right now, I would not be surprised by a possible scum lynch so Konowa is unable to get his investigation result out at all. I mean, just something I thought about.

I hate telling PRs what to do, but this is one of the few situations that calls for it: DOC, PROTECT KONOWA (Pending Dev revealed as scum, obv.).

[ryan2754]

Updated vote count?

[ryan2754]

To everyone:
For the next five or six days, I will be working on getting moved up to Toledo for medical school.
Thus, my time for the next few days for mafia will be limited.
I am just posting to let everyone know that I WON'T be going absent, but will keep along with the thread. However, my responses will be limited as I will not have the time to make my long posts that I usually make. Just letting everyone know.

[ryan2754]

I think dramonic is the scummiest player currently still in the game.

I agreed with SB's logic of dramonic in his 182, and even voted dramonic.

Also, see my 293. Of the players on my suspect list, only SC and dramonic remain.


Voting:
Round 1
Final Vote Count
With 12 playing, it requires 7 to lynch
Charter(7) - Dramonic, Devestation, StrangerCoug, Ryan2754, Sajin, Konowa, charlatan
Devestation(1) -Scott Brosius
Dramonic(1) - Charter
Scott Brosius(1) - AdamNW/MME
Pim(1) - Snake/RBT
Ryan2754(1) - Pim

MME, RBT, PIM randoms, and other players all on Charter (town)

RBT hammers, citing the game won't advance. Not much read
MME playing similar to meta.
PIM no read.
Konowa - Cop
SC - slight to no suspicion
dramonic - suspicious
sajin - neutral, nothing striking as scum

I have been thinking about this for a while, and now is a good time.

I am a town mason.

My mason partner is Sajin. However, his alignment is NOT confirmed.

Wanted to put it out there before LYLO, worst case scenario.

[ryan2754]

Could there be a mafia RB and town RB? Like per se, if Town RB dramonic was RBed by mafia RB and thus Konowa received result?

I have no idea why dramonic would make such a claim, but so be it.
If dramonic flips town, I can see Konowa being scum, a CC fake cop ousting his own to gain townie points.

Would like an answer to my question before I vote.

[ryan2754]

Whats dramonic at?

[ryan2754]

I claimed mason as well, and not killed...surprising.

So konowa got a guilty?

[ryan2754]

I need a re-read to see if anything pops out...

[ryan2754]

I think Sajin's attack on MME is misguided. I think he is grasping for straws and clearly seems to be misinterpreting a lot.

However, I will say I didn't continually like MME's question responses post after post. Seems very weird.

So why is everyone seeming to discredit RBT being a Godfather? I don't like to speculate much, but that is still a possibility, especially with having a mafia goon and RB on his scum team.

However, given what has transpired, Ani and MME are the only unclaimed.
No double NKs seems Vig/SK is not in this game, and thus, the ability to be immune from NK's seems very, well, odd.

Thus, I would say for now that PBT is more likely VT than scum.

I thought it was really off that Konowa would get a guilty on a VT, although, he could have technically also been non-sane.

Ummm, what? We have already established long ago that he is sane.

I find Sajin to be town right now. I was suspicious of the possibility of outing masons, but ryan making the notion that Sajin was town from the QT makes it sound particularly interesting. Thus, I find ryan suspicious now, especially for not hesitating to say that you were unconfirmed and for a rather strange time to claim as well.

1.) I never made the notion of Sajin was town from my QT. It was actually the other way around.
2.) Not hesitating to say that he was unconfirmed? THAT IS A NECESSARY detail that the town needs to know. Not hesitating? I added it as part of my post because I claimed mason. My alignment is with the town, and the role PM says that my partner's alignment is unconfirmed. Thus, it's a necessary detail.
3.) I explained to Sajin why I claimed. I felt like it, and also it seemed like the right time, seeing as we are down to one scum. Eliminating players from the pool of suspicious players at this point is a GOOD idea.

Also, RBT, what is suspicious about MME's recent play?

Great, we have a survivor. Thus, does this mean that town loses if he survives? Or is he neutral party and just needs to survive. (Now to think of it, MME is only unclaimed individual).

Scum is either ryan or Sajin.

So you don't think RBT is Godfather? Why can't it be MME?

So Ani, the only non-town vibe you are getting from remaining non-neutral players is me?

[ryan2754]

On re-read, I checked to look at posts of all currently alive players and both dead mafia players to see if there is any distancing, buddying, etc. going on.

Snake/RBT, in post 76, seems to be tunnelling on Charter.

Snake/RBT, in post 85, gets on dramonic for calling people out when he himself didn;'t have his vote changed from RVS.

Sajin, in post 112, sticks with Dev case/vote and thinks SC not scummy.

Dev, in post 115, buddies heavily with Sajin's opinion on town and scum wagons.

Sajin, in post 150, says SC actively scumhunting, and asks for dram's suspects.

Ryan, in post 183, votes dramonic for SB's reasoning, and found dev scummy.

Ryan, in post 213, votes devestation.

Looking back, Charter was right about Dev and Dramonic. Damn he's good.

Dramonic, in post 274, calls out Sajin for his "I might be cop, I may not be" phrase.

I agree we can't take any large measures until we get a post or few from Ani. Especially since his predecessor kept a random vote on me when Charter was lynched.

Sajin, in post 345, calls out SB for maybe hinting he knows CHarter is town.

MME, in post 397, votes dev AND FOS dramonic. However a few posts later it seems he releases some of his attack on dram, and sort of seems to let it slide.

RBT, in post 408, finds Konowa's claim much better then Dev's, but is afraid to vote in case of self-hammer.

MME, in post 414, attacks Dev hardcore.

Sajin, in post 418, thinks that Dev is telling the truth.

I only know my own role, and while I'm fairly certain (especially with a self-vote like that) that Dev is fakeclaiming scum, I have to question things I don't know for certain.

If Dev flips vanilla, then he deserves the lynch anyway for being anti-town and rolefishing. I would hope that, should this extremely rare scenario happen, that a vig would be smart enough to not kill you.

This post catches my eye. He is considering the possibility of Dev claiming vanilla, and feserving a lynch. Seems fairly obvious, and not even worth discussing, and seems to be acting as though he is part of the discussion.

RBT, in post 434, hammers Dev because "game won't carry on," yet earlier wanting it to carry on.

Sajin, in post 449, votes dramonic based on voting patterns.

Dram, in post 450, actually votes Sajin (OMGUS).

RBT, in post 462, considers voting dramonic for lynch, but doesn't.

RBT, in post 471, not completely convinced about dram's faking it.

RBT, in post 493, finally votes dramonic.

Sajin, in post 494, calls the Die Scum Die comment of RBT a distancing effect.

The way MME analyzed the situation with RBT and being guilty (when he actually wasn't) it interesting. It's getting town vibes, as he votes after investigation but then unvotes.

Sajin, in 519, calls MME's post incriminating.

Sajin, in 523, votes MME.

I will say the recent debate between MME or Sajin thinks that one of them might be the final scum. However, I see it more likely as MME than Sajin.
With all this said, I don't think Sajin is scum. His attack early in D3 on dram seems good with no ill intentions.

Thus, it's between MME, Ani, and RBT. Ani hasn't said much. RBT delayed voting as long as possible on dram. And ani claimed survivor. Seems legit.

By godfather I just meant investigation immune. I am not sure why immunity to nightkills was brought up.

Oh, I see. I was always under the impression that Godfather's were NK immune as well. Well, in that case, it's still a decent possibility.

Regarding ani's claim: As long as he makes it to endgame, he fulfills his win condition. Be it with town or mafia.

Adding RBT as a possible godfather this is how I think we should go about this. Might I mention I loathe godfather wifom discussion.

1) Lynch RBT.
2) RBT flips scum, we win. RBT flips town, I will investigate one of ryan or Sajin.
3) I get a guilty we lynch and win. I get an innocent we lynch the other.

Why are you discrediting the possibility of MME being scum?

[ryan2754]

>> ryan

I guess the only thing I find odd in your play is how you twist and turn in your opinions on people (me specific). You go from "odd play" to "town post) back to "scum" with the pinnacle in this post...

I will say the recent debate between MME or Sajin thinks that one of them might be the final scum. However, I see it more likely as MME than Sajin.
With all this said, I don't think Sajin is scum. His attack early in D3 on dram seems good with no ill intentions.

You are missing a few things, MME.

I called your play "weird" because of the way you were responding to Sajin's accusations with more questions. Thus, your play was weird when I read threw the most recent pages of the game, mainly page 22.

I got town vibes from a specific post in my re-read of the game. Thus, this was my thoughts on each post that seemed important. Thus, I am got a town vibe FROM A FEW OF THOSE POSTS.

Follow along? I am not changing opinions, but addressing something completely different in a re-read.

Then, I say, based on the added information that I really don't find Sajin scum based on his hardcore attacking on both Dev and Dram, I think that out of the two of you, you are more likely to be scum. You are missing that RBT factors into this as well.

You sound very uncommitted to your opinions on people. If the final scum would be amongst sajin and me, AND you find sajin not to be scum, why are you not voting me?

In that post that you quote above, I was specifically talking about the relationship I see between you and Sajin and the debate therein (specifically about the debate) and that I see one of you as possible remaining scum. I felt at the time Sajin to be more likely town, thus, ipso facto, you are scum. Yes, I can't deny I am being very non-committal in my language. I can't deny that. My re-read didn't really utilize any additional information. That post that you quote, however, ignores my opinion on RBT, and how he factors into this. In the sentence afterwhat you quoted, I mentioned RBT as possible scum as well. Thus, the reason why I am not voting you currently, as I see other possibilities of who is scum.

Suffice to say, given the most recent page, I think that there is possibility of Sajin being scum.
You make a very good case on Sajin's actions as of late. Also, given the last page or so, and some information that I have gathered, I actually have reason to believe you to NOT be the final scum MME.
I actually read the quicktopic between me and Sajin, and looking back, there are a few things that come to mind:
1.)He questioned me on why I claimed. However, the tone in which he did it really seems awkward. Like he's trying to not sound mad, but kind of is.
2.)He asked me what my win condition was, and what my role PM generally said, and then just agreed with me. I questioned him on why he asked what mine said and he was trying to determine my alignment. I said he was unconfirmed, and thus can't necessarily take anyone's word for it. He replies saying he was trying to determine if I knew about dayspeaking, to see if there were any inconsistencies in our PMs.
3.) He says "I was the first vote on devestation...shrug" Don't exactly know what that means.
4.)He later says "Should I die please post that I thought that StrangerCoug and dramonic are Devestations scum partners."
5.) I later asked why he asked me why I thought dramonic was suspicious in game, rather than in the QT, and he said "to not make our talking so obvious..." Looking back, this definitely comes out weird. Our talking? Are you saying people would notice that we aren't referencing each other and assume we are talking outside of the actual thread? I just don't understand this.

Personally, I would like everyone's opinion on these matters, and if they are getting a vibe either way.

As much as I hate some of the things Sajin said in the QT, I can't deny he was hardcore on Dev and dramonic throughout the game. What just confuses me is the "First vote on Dev...shrug" comment.

So everyone is up for a no lynch for the reason that we get a cop investigation without the possibility of losing the doc? Just seeing if I have the right logic. I understand it, I guess, but given the information we have at present with the remaining six people, I think we have a very low likelihood of lynching the doc (if there is one).

[ryan2754]

I have some questions about the quicktopic's content you posted:

1.)He questioned me on why I claimed. However, the tone in which he did it really seems awkward. Like he's trying to not sound mad, but kind of is.

- would you say he was mad/agitated over how you claimed and what you said or about the time of the claim?
- did the claim come before or after he asked you about your win condition? (important question)

- In that exact QT post, he starts by answering the question I asked of him on why he asked in thread rather than out of thread in QT. He then just adds "Why did you claim?" I just feel this was a way to make it fairly non-chalant while actually being slightly upset. IIRC, in the thread in post 473 he responds to my claim. He says of it: "I am not sure what good claiming now did, but sure. Its better than me dieing tonight and have ryan claim town mason and skate free if he is scum. But I have a town read on ryan based on our QT."
- After. He actually asked about my win condition at the very beginning of the QT (N0/D1). I claimed much later, obviously.

2.)He asked me what my win condition was, and what my role PM generally said, and then just agreed with me. I questioned him on why he asked what mine said and he was trying to determine my alignment. I said he was unconfirmed, and thus can't necessarily take anyone's word for it. He replies saying he was trying to determine if I knew about dayspeaking, to see if there were any inconsistencies in our PMs.

- dayspeaking? could you clarify?

- We weren't sure whether we could dayspeak or not, as most masons can only talk during night (from my own experience). He asked me if we could dayspeak. I replied I did not know. Mod didn't say either way. I then asked him why he asked me, and he replied that he was trying to determine my alignment, possibly based on if I KNEW I could dayspeak. He then asked the mod and said we could.

3.) He says "I was the first vote on devestation...shrug" Don't exactly know what that means.

- did he elaborate on this?
- or come back on his statement on a later moment?

- No. It didn't really catch my attention at first.
- No.

4.)He later says "Should I die please post that I thought that StrangerCoug and dramonic are Devestations scum partners."

- exact time? like N2 or N3?

- 08-05-2009, which means it was approximately the end of D2, after Konowa CC'd cop.

5.) I later asked why he asked me why I thought dramonic was suspicious in game, rather than in the QT, and he said "to not make our talking so obvious..." Looking back, this definitely comes out weird. Our talking? Are you saying people would notice that we aren't referencing each other and assume we are talking outside of the actual thread? I just don't understand this.

- would you compare it to my and kitty's fear of being found buddying/not enough distancing in our previous game?

- I don't think it compares. You and Kitty were both scum, so the buddying/not distancing stuff is a legitimate fear. You two were making sure that you weren't buddying at all, and were remaining somewhat distant. Seems sajin in doing the opposite, trying to decrease the distance between me and him.

It should be noted that ryan hardly ever used our QT at night. Hardly posted anything.

This argument is completely WIFOM. We were allowed to dayspeak. Why, then, concentrate my posts in the QT during the night? You weren't such a hot talker yourself.

3- This was in response to dramonic attacking me.

So what would being the first vote on Dev have to do with Dramonic attacking you?

[ryan2754]

Am I wrong in assuming that you're getting a less-than-town vibe from Sajin?

No, you are not. Granted, considering we are unconfirmed, that doesn't necessarily mean one of us HAS to be scum. But yes I am getting slightly scum read right now.

Good. Did he say it looked like his? (yet another important question)(yes, I'm going somewhere with this, or I hope to)

His response was simple: I have the same win condition.
All threats eliminated and no stopping it.

- 08-05-2009, which means it was approximately the end of D2, after Konowa CC'd cop.

Thus, after it was very obvious dev was scum.

- I don't think it compares. You and Kitty were both scum, so the buddying/not distancing stuff is a legitimate fear. You two were making sure that you weren't buddying at all, and were remaining somewhat distant. Seems sajin in doing the opposite, trying to decrease the distance between me and him.

Ah, yes, obviously. I'm not too familiar with mason/neighbor play, but I don't think it's optimal if you try to buddy to your partner. Especially when you're neighbors.

Can you place this for us? Is it pre-dev lynch or after?

I am missing the sequence here. What is the "it" in your second sentence?

Ani - Isn't going to help the town as long as he's alive.

MME - Neutral, but probably a good choice for tomorrow if Ani isn't scum.

Ryan - Also a likely choice for tomorrow if Ani isn't scum.

Sajin - Most likely town to me right now.

Is this serious? Can you explain your opinions better?

Sajin, I don't get what you are trying to prove with your 619. It opens a bunch of WIFOM.

I think that the reason you or ryan are still alive is rather simple.

One of you is scum.

By killing off one of the neighbours, you're really making the other look suspicious. If one neighbour flips town, then due to the nature of the role the other would be incriminated.

If you're both town, I think the scum would have killed one of you already.

I think this theory makes sense.

The whole not lying thing is dumb in the game of mafia, Ani.

RBT, why do you think the survivor claim is scum?

[ryan2754]

Well...

That was..

Rather lame.

Vote: animorph

So are you saying Ani's "secret Weapon" was actually a terrible excuse as a scum gambit?

[ryan2754]

I would just like to through some WIFOM out there as well, since we are in the business.

It was obvious MME had the same type of feelings on the remaining players as myself with regards to the whole debate last round.

Why would I off someone that is clearly on my side? I would off RBT, as then MME would have most likely voted Sajin and this game would be over.

I have no fucking clue who is mafia now. F me in the A.
I have been in the end game once or twice in my first games on this site in this scenario (as town). Suffice to say, it didn't bode well.

[ryan2754]

Before anyone does any voting, please answer these, RBT:

On Day 5, RBT, why do you think the survivor claim is scum?
What is town win condition?

Pending your responses, I am almost positive I know who scum is.

[ryan2754]

I understand.
And yes, I am asking for a paraphrase. I don't want to jeopardize anyone's chances of getting modkilled to end the game.

[ryan2754]

I don't get what you are asking...what are you asking me to respond to?

[ryan2754]

My personal win condition is very similar to dramonic's, and Charlatan's to a degree. Thus, I find charter scummy for trying to push dramonic in post 302.

Of all the win conditions, Dev's is most lacking, and thus the most suspicious given my own condition.

Found this gem in my nth reread.

Any response to that?

Well, how should I respond to that?
I found charter scummy, and he turned out town.
I found Dev's win condition most lacking, and he was mafia.
Charlatan bothered me because of the whole paraphrase ordeal (IIRC).

As for dramonic, I found him scummy multiple times throughout the first couple days. I alleviated some suspicion with his win condition claim, but ultimately found him worthy of a vote and lynch despite it.

[ryan2754]

Please provide your paraphrase of your win condition, please.

[ryan2754]

No you didn't.

I really don't know what to do here.

As much as I think Sajin is scum, the whole RBT scenario is bothering me.

But because of RBT's unwillingness to answer questions.

Vote: RBT

Did I lose Sajin?

[ryan2754]

Well, that was interesting.

From now on, if I am in LyLo, I need to vote for who I "don't" think is scum.

Here was mine and Sajin's QT.

To be honest, Sajin, when you suggested the voting for each other thing, I was almost positive you were scum.

This is what he suggested: "Alright well how about this. We already have information that RBT is "clear". How about we both request that RBT votes first. If she votes you and I do not auto hammer, you know I am clear. If she votes me and you do not auto hammer I know your clear. If you agree with this either type it in the thread, or post here you agree, and I will type it.

I still think its her. You and I have good voting histories and meaningful cases both. She does not."

You did have very good voting histories Sajin. My issue was you kept throwing that in people's faces. However, vote analysis is a big indicator of scum, and well, you were right, you looked good. When you voted, I was at that point positive that Sajin was town. I was just afraid at messing up again, because I am AWFUL end game.

I know it was WIFOM, but my reasoning for voting off MME would hold if I were mafia, for what it was worth.

Granted, I do think the mod messup was kind of big, because it definitely introduced the idea of Godfather, so yeah.

Good game cits.