Mini 816: Revenge of the Monkey(GAME OVER!)

[charter]

/confirm

[charter]

@Adam and charter: what are your thoughts on the RVS and its usefulness?

Sometimes useful, sometimes not. Depends on the game. Don't know about this one yet.

Any reason for a third vote on me with no explanation when we are pretty much still in the RVS?

Here, have another vote!

Vote Scott Brosius

[charter]

You cant seriously expect to pull off a bandwagon lynch in the RVS...

Unvote so we don't have any accidents

I don't see any reason to unvote.

Could it really be this easy? Scott and Devestation being scum together?

[charter]

Oh, also, who said anything about a lynch?

[charter]

What do you mean "doesn't excuse charter"? What is wrong with piling on the largest bandwagon?

[charter]

The fact that Scott Brosius asked why he's being bandwagoned and you added a vote seemingly just for kicks was enough to set off my alarm. Also, "piling on the largest bandwagon" isn't exactly a pro-town move (best case scenario being a null tell).

What do you mean set off your alarm? You think my bandwagoning was scummy, or what? I think bandwagons are extremely protown, the bigger, the better in my experience. If we brought Scott to L-2 or L-1 for no other reason than "just because" it would be much to my liking.

@Charter - There's a lot wrong with piling on the largest bandwagon. I've seen town quickhammer, so if that were to happen it wouldn't automatically mean isn't scumkill the next day, especially since most scum are smart enough not to to lead the bandwagon to a lynch.

I don't think a quickhammer is as bad as people make it out to be. Also, you seem to write off the possibility of Scott being scum, in which case I don't think a quickhammer on him would be bad at all.

I know he was only at L-3, but you voted him without reason and, in post 50, continue to imply that you really think he's scum. Like someone said, it's a tell, so you've become the closest thing I have to a real suspect. Congrats.

Why is my voting for him with no reason any more noteworthy than anyone else who has voted without giving a reason?

[charter]

Because everyone's vote was part of the RVS. You voted Scott without reason and said you think he's scum. When you don't provide a reason, it's scummy because it looks like you're only on the bandwagon to push a mislynch.

No. When I voted him, I had no idea who was scum. Devastation's plea for people to unvote I found extremely scummy of him (almost enough to earn a lynch) and makes Scott look very scummy as well, even though Scott hasn't done hardly anything himself I find scummy. Devastation is trying to stop others from scumhunting by quashing this wagon. He is trying to rob us of Scott's reactions to a large wagon on himself. If Scott crumbles under the pressure and one or two people come to his aide, looks like we have ourselves some scum. If he ignores it, knowing that nothing will actually come from five votes on him with no reason given, I'm much more inclined to think he's town.

How do you say I'm scummy and trying to push a mislynch? In the post where I voted, there's nothing that says I'm trying to push a mislynch. Nowhere in any of my posts do I say or imply that. Here you have taken up the assumption Scott can't be scum, for all I know Scott is scum.

I'm actually shocked that people are getting worked up over Devastation because he unvoted for no reason rather than how he is trying to get people to unvote someone else.

Its an RVS vote via the reason of "having a contradictory avatar". Pirates can be loyal to their own crew so it aint contradictory.
Plus, it's absolutely pointless for it to stay there given that we have been prematurely pulled out of the RVS stage by this ridiculous bandwagoning and "just leaving it there" will ultimately be more scummy in the long run. I'm much more worried about this pointless wagon against scott brosius.

What do you mean set off your alarm? You think my bandwagoning was scummy, or what? I think bandwagons are extremely protown, the bigger, the better in my experience. If we brought Scott to L-2 or L-1 for no other reason than "just because" it would be much to my liking.

PRO TOWN??? We need reasons for our votes, you can't expect to seriously be able to justify a reasonless bandwagon in the RVS. What happens if scum hammer? What happens if a JESTER hammers and we lynch them for stupidity tomorrow?

Sajin by saying "Unvote so we don't have any accidents" I was actually talking to the bandwagoneers.

I thought my reason was pretty self explainatory, I was just bandwagoning. Yeah, bandwagoning is very protown, best way of scumhunting in the RVS I know of. If you wagon someone fast for no reason, you get to see their reactions (and those of other people) which is great for determining their alignment. There's no way we have a jester, and if we do, fuck this game then.

charter... quick wagons are NOT protown in ANY way.

Yes they are. I've already explained it. If you would rather everyone have one vote on everyone in the RVS, then you need to rethink your mafia strategy.

Scum like to bandwagon when they can get away with it, for starters. We want to lynch someone because that person is most likely scum, not merely because we feel like it.

WHO SAID ANYTHING ABOUT LYNCHING ANYONE??? You keep seeming to think this is true, but why?

People I'm currently suspicious of.
Scott because of how panicked Devastation got when he had four votes on him.
Devastation because he cared that someone else had four votes on them and then asked people to unvote. I'm even moreso suspicious of him for post 69 where he defends how his joke vote and then unvote were in fact legitimate. It looks like he perceived Snake's question as an attack and rushed to defend himself over something that doesn't need defending.
Some others, but we'll get to the them later if they keep it up.
Since Devastation is probably scum,

unvote, vote Devastation

[charter]

Not that you answered my question at all, but if two scum swoop in for a quickhammer, then it's going to be pretty obvious they are scum. You speak of that as if it's a bad thing, but I think it's a good trade. I'm not feigning anything. I use early bandwagons to try and catch scum and clear town all the time.

And don't pull any of this "you've been on the site blah blah" crap, since that doesn't mean anything either.

[charter]

How did I fail to answer your question? My point was that if we're not careful, bandwagons can lead to mislynches. You seem not to care, which is a big fat scumtell.

Ok, this is much clearer than your other post. I will ask you too, why do you discount the possibility of a wagon on Scott ending with a scum lynch?

You say that if two scum swoop in to quickhammer, then those two are obvscum. How, therefore, is Scott Brosius being run up to L-2 or L-1 for no other reason than "just because" a good thing?

For the same reason I've been saying. You get to see how he reacts, and how others react to it and if anyone unvotes, or quickvotes. I call it scumhunting.

Snake. Please go read the order in which these events occurred. I voted Scott. Devastation then pleaded for people to unvote. I did not vote Scott because Devastation was scummy. The vote for Scott occurred before Devastation did all his scummy actions.

What it does is cause discussion. It's not scumhunting

Ok, then, you tell me how you find scum if it's not by pressuring people and analyzing reactions.

Snake, here's some games with bandwagoning.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10182
I put someone at L-2 on page two, no reason given. Everyone easily cleared the wagonee so much that they got killed night one.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11459
I put scum at L-1 on like post ten, also cleared a townie through vigorous L-1 wagoning.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10710
A few big wagons on the first few pages I believe.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9466
Tons of reactions gathered from early big wagons.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10755
Obvious that me and my scumbuddy pushed for mislynches. We would have been caught easily if it wasn't a newbie game.

I am frankly shocked that so many people think bandwagoning is scummy. I don't think I can remember a game where anyone paid it any notice.

[charter]

Charter, the first three seemed fair game, but those last two links you were scum, survived, and won the game for your team. Obviously that means it doesn't always work in towns favor and you may very well be scum right now because of it. My vote will remain on you, but seeing how it seems to be able to work in towns favor more so than I thought, it will be easier to get my vote off you, should something else come up.

In the mini where I was scum, I thought I was town and so did the mafia in the first two/three days, so that game still holds up.

Why should we discount the possibility of a wagon on you ending with a scum lynch?

Was anybody talking about me? Was anybody saying "vote charter, wagon"? No. Where do you come up with these pointless questions? The answer is no, you shouldn't discount the possibility.

Pressure rarely works, especially if they're aware that's what it is. They're behind a computer, so they have plenty of time to think. What I try to do is question, look for inconsistencies and look for slips.

Ok, then this is a difference in opinion on mafia theory. Pressure does work. So do slips though.

I know you did it for reactions, but I called for people to unvote because I think bandwagoning is daft the entire way, and mafia can go and search for reactions too using the same technique.

This is dumb/not true. Mafia don't need to figure out people's alignment, so they don't care about early reactions.

dramonic

, who are your top two suspects, and why do you think they are suspicious? Do you think they are scum together? Why/why not?

My vote is staying on Charter because I consider quick-wagons to be purely scum beneficial.

And do you have anything to back this up? I just showed a bunch of examples how they're beneficial for town, are you ignoring them?

StrangerCoug took the ball and ran with it, and has since tunneled hard on charter. Snake has played back-up, but he's engaging more in the overall dialogue, whereas Stranger has pretty much spent the entire game (at least in Serious Mode) taking swings at charter. I think it's an easy fight to pick, and at the end of the day I don't think charter's attitude towards bandwagoning is scummy, just arguably ill-reasoned. So, I'm looking mostly at the attackers.

Yes, this is basically what I've been suspecting StrangerCoug on this game as well. He hasn't said two words about anyone but me, and isn't interested in finding out anyone else's alignment, or even mine. He took one post of mine, declared me to be scum, and has been arguing it tooth and nail since.

especially in terms of posting links in which running up an early-game bandwagon has helped him win as scum before.

Once again, only one of those games I was actually scum in the beginning.

Scott, what do you think of Devastation? Do you think he is suspicious or what?

[charter]

charter seems to advocate the idea that all bandwagons are pro-town, which is not true.

Yeah, 9 times out of 10 bandwagons are good, especially in the RVS. I guess they can be bad, but I can't recall a game I've ever been in where town quickhammered town on a wagon. I only remember scum quickhammering town.

[charter]

StrangerCoug is scummy because he isn't scumhunting. He's just going after me, and isn't making any attempt to discern my alignment. He's also having barebones interactions with everyone else in the game.

[charter]

This is false. I've touched on the same Devestation-Scott Brosius connection that your posts imply to exist, and by saying I'm not fond of Konowa, I imply that I'm leaning scum on him. Me talking mostly about you ≠ me talking only about you.

No, as far as I can tell, the only time you've mentioned Devestation is your post 19 (which is after you made this post). The only thing you've said about Scott is what you keep attacking me over, and you'd be doing the same if it was someone besides Scott. You aren't trying to find out anybody's alignment, you're just trying to push a charter lynch.

Convince me that bandwagons are a good town weapon outside of the random voting stage and I'll consider unvoting you.

Go read some games and many times it's obvious when a townie is being wagoned. It's much more difficult to get a good wagon on scum when they don't slip up big. Two examples I can think of off the top of my head are these
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10933
I worked tirelessly to get Budja lynched day one, and most of the day it was me who had the most votes.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9776
Rival bandwagons day one, Llama figured out that people easily voted one person (a townie) while it was impossible to get others to vote for someone else (scum).
This is the last I'm going to defend myself on about mafia theory. Bandwagons are good, and if you all are blind then I'm not going to try and show you any more. It's simply ridiculous how much I'm being attacked over a bandwagon vote. NO ONE has ever attacked that much over something so trivial, which is why I think those that are doing it are scummy.

I think any person who thinks someone should be run up to L-2 or L-1 in the RVS, which you said you'd be happy with, should have a rope tied around his or her neck. I would have moved along had you been more thoughtful about the matter.

Did you miss the game where I did it as town and it cleared a townie? I don't see how you can consider it a scumtell.

I cant believe people are still voting Dev. Seriously, he's about as scummy as a can of tuna fihs (that's not scummy, by the way)

Unless you explain how, I'm just going to figure you're his scumbuddy. He's almost certainly scum.

dramonic wrote:
My vote is staying on Charter because I consider quick-wagons to be purely scum beneficial.

And do you have anything to back this up? I just showed a bunch of examples how they're beneficial for town, are you ignoring them?

Hitting scum on a quickwagon is purely luck. Yes, it's very tempting for scum to get that kind of easy lynches, but it's the initiation of the procedure that is the real scummy act. A lot of newb towns are tempted by quick lynches too, just because it's easy.

No, you're dodging providing evidence to your point. So I ask again, where is your evidence (or refuting of mine) that quick WAGONS are beneficial for town.

Right now, dramonic and StrangerCoug look an AWFUL lot like scumbuddies. I think Devastation is a third member of the scumteam as well. I still like my Devastation vote at this time.

[charter]

Will be V/LA from wednesday to next tuesday. Might have access, might not.

[charter]

dramonic, nothing in post 148 is the reason I'm doing anything. My reasons have already been stated.

149- Stranger, I don't consider your post 9 to be mentioning Devastation at all. 14, maybe, but you mention him only in passing, and your opinion on him is weak. In 16 you don't say anything about Devastation either. Mentioning his name doesn't equate to giving your opinion on him.

What game? I've played/modded too many games to have mental notes on everything that's happened in my games; that's why I comment on them after I'm done.

The one I mentioned in post 83. http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10182

Charter is my no.1 scum right now. He doesn't care who gets lynched, he just jumps on the highest wagon.

I do care who gets lynched, where have I said/suggested otherwise? How is jumping on the highest wagon indicative of scum?

So you think that that question was pointless? Why were you asking pointless questions then?

I thought your question was pointless. I don't ask questions unless I have a reason.

It doesn't matter how many you show that helped town. The second you showed the one you the won game as scum, that's when all the reasons to bandwagon went down the drain.

Yes, it does matter. It's certainly not a scumtell if it helps town, which I showed. You're avoiding giving evidence of your position, instead you're just saying mine is wrong, and not giving evidence why. So, for the last time, where is your evidence that bandwagoning doesn't help town?

People are more likely to talk and slip under pressure, but right now with all the lurkers we can't even havev 4 players on one wagon, it's a bit ridiculous.

Pretty sure you're scum too. All you're doing is bitching about lurkers, not looking for scum one bit. You also vote me for bandwagoning, but how do you expect to pressure people if not with bandwagons? You're also not trying to discern my alignment, you just declared me to be scum early and are still running with it.

182-183- I like these votes on dramonic.

207- WHAT THE FU!#*%#$@ Explain how you arrive at

That, and the fact he think Charter's pro-wagon stance is a scumtell is kind of bad. It's very anti-town (Charter's thinking), but I wouldn't call it scummy, since it HAS a chance to hit scum, albeit very random.

When you've previously said

My vote is staying on Charter because I consider quick-wagons to be purely scum beneficial.

I'm not as sure SC is in the scum triangle with Devastation and dramonic. I AM

(almost entirely)

sure however, that dramonic and Devastation are scumbuddies and willing to lynch either today without further ado.

[charter]

Oh, well, I meant mention him as in give your opinion on him, which I think you only did weakly, but you have now, so I'm dropping that.

I'm pretty sure dramonic and Devastation are scum together.
dramonic defends and clarifies for Dev in post 148 and still goes on about voting for me.
dramonic leaves Dev out of his lurkerlist in post 152 while blaming lurkers for whatever, though Dev was definately a lurker at that point. He also gives a very weak neutral read on Dev and gives no reason.
Then in 154 he admits that Dev hasn't done anything this game (which gives him town cred and makes him not a lurker, which makes no sense)
In 186 he unvotes me and leaves it at that. Doesn't put out another vote. Doesn't say who he's suspicious of. Basically just waiting until it's safe for him to do something.
Also he tries to start up an alt hunt (horridly scummy) on Pim (who does need to post...)
Basically everything he's said on this page has just been active lurking (post 221 excluded, though it doesn't say much either) and the scummiest thing I find about dramonic is how he is completely and totally ignoring the Devastation wagon. He is posting plenty, but not saying anything about it at all. He's not doing anything at all. Not voting, not questioning anyone. All I know about him right now is that he doesn't like lurkers.

This all leads (and pretty conclusively) to both dramonic and Devastation being scumbuddies.

[charter]

Mod, do we have a dealine? If so, when?

dramonic, I'm not looking for responses from you from why I find you scummy. They are things that make no logical sense if you're town, and they've already happened, so there's no sluffing them off now. (not to mention your responses didn't address what I said at all. "you're repeating yourself" doesn't say anything, is just a poor way of trying to deflect points from you.

Basically, your claimed slight town read on Devastation doesn't justify how you are completely ignoring the wagon on him and those that are voting him.

[charter]

If you actually thought it was scum driven, then you would be voting someone driving it and trying to get that person lynched. You're just sitting back waiting for another lynch target to surface that isn't your scumbuddy. You're not questioning anyone's vote for Devastation (though some have been bad and would merit questioning) but just being indifferent towards it.

[charter]

I mean, this is too little too late, especially since it came after I told you off for just waiting around.

[charter]

charlatan moves down from townie to neutral in my book for his preplanning scum night actions for them. Why on earth would you say that today?

I guess it really isn't an indication that he's more likely to be scum, but it wasn't a smart thing to say, which is different from what he's been saying this game.

I think it's pointless to speculate on night kills or any scum actions until you have at least one scum dead, else every theory you come up with is pure WIFOM, and even then, it's speculation at best.

StrangerCoug, why don't you think they could be scumbuddies? Who do you think is Devastation's scumbuddy/s?

[charter]

So the only thing you have for potential scumbuddies is the bit between Scott and Devestation in the very beginning?

[charter]

Scumbuddies of Devestation that is. Not interested in other pairings/groupings you might have.

[charter]

Ugh. How did I freakin' know he was going to claim something good.

unvote, vote dramonic

I'm not cop.

Devestation, how did you come up with the wording you used there? Is it all your own words or was it a paraphrase? Why did you not claim before? Why did you need time to think about it?

NO ONE COMMENT ON THAT, EXCEPT DEVESTATION!!!

If you don't answer this soon, I'm going to revote you no matter what, because dodging this question practically guarantees you're scum.

I also think it would be best if everyone can claim cop or not cop as fast as possible and assuming that doesn't take too long, keep discussion to a minimum.

[charter]

You don't think we should see if there is a counter?

[charter]

I think it's dumb to lynch an uncountered cop day one. Either everyone claims cop or not cop and we can lynch him if someone counters, or no one says anything on it and we lynch someone else and deal with Devestation on a later day if he's still around.

Everyone keeping their mouth shut and then lynching an uncountered cop is too idiotic to comprehend in my book. This is why I don't understand why you guys are A) keeping your vote on Devestation and B) refusing to see if there is a counterclaim. If no one wants to claim cop/not cop, that's fine, but we shouldn't lynch Devestation today.

unvote, vote dramonic

since it wasn't in the last votecount.

[charter]

I think it's dumb to lynch an uncountered cop day one. Either everyone claims cop or not cop and we can lynch him if someone counters, or no one says anything on it and we lynch someone else and deal with Devestation on a later day if he's still around.

If we massclaim cop/not cop on Day 1, we get a counterclaim, and the faker gets lynched, the chances are very high that the real cop will get either killed on Night 1 or constantly roleblocked to prevent the receipt of innocent/guilty results on other players. You're clearly not thinking ahead.

Unvote: Devestation
Vote: charter

You're clearly not thinking at all. Why listen to me and unvote Devestation? You were fine with lynching an uncountered cop a few minutes ago, why did scumbag charter's words sway you so easily? I don't think we should lynch Devestation if we're not going to be countering today either, but you seem to just be following me, who you supposedly think is scum. Why?

[charter]

Charter looks incredibly scummy if devestation is scum. Could still be scum otherwise.

Why is this?

Devestation, how did you come up with the wording you used there? Is it all your own words or was it a paraphrase?
-Paraphrase

Well, your win condition sounds nothing like mine, so I'm pretty sure you're just guessing.

unvote, vote Devestation

[charter]

Well, apparently Charlatan is scum with dramonic then, because dramonic's latest win condition is miles off what mine is, not to mention dramonic has now changed what his was after someone else said something about theirs.

I'm really, really, REALLY sure dramonic is bs'ing this. I don't see how anyone can say otherwise either.

unvote, vote dramonic

[charter]

Mine has a pretty important clause before it talks about how I actually win. I'd think if you were town you would have noticed it and included it.

[charter]

Pretty sure the scumteam is charlatan, dramonic, Devestation.

[charter]

Meaning, why vote dramonic over charlatan? Neither of them had any votes previous of yours. Also, if you believe that Devestation to be scum, why not vote him as he is the leading bandwagon?

Because all this role discussion stuff has me convinced that dramonic is not town. Since Devestation is lurking and just hasn't said anything on the issue, I'd rather lynch dramonic than a possible cop. Granted it's unlikely that Devestation is cop, but I'm as sure dramonic is scum, so it's not worth the risk. Of course, if people don't switch on to dramonic (I don't know why, it's obvious he's lying about his pm), I'm going to move back on to devestation.

[charter]

I am suspicious of the ease with which the votes are piling on charter this close to deadline.

Yeah. I'm not claiming either. My wagon has all three scum on it, this I am pretty sure of. Half the people haven't given a reason for voting me. Heck yes I was trying to see if we got a counter on the cop. I'll take a one for one trade losing the cop any day. How often does the cop catch more than one scum? Not often.

I'm being lynched because people in this game have horribly skewed mafia theory. Go start a MD thread about bandwagons, people will praise them. Go start a MD thread about lynching an uncountered cop day one, it doesn't happen.

I will try and hold my tongue on the rest of the comments I would like to make about players in this game.

[charter]

Hmmmm, I reread, and I'm nowhere near as sure of Devestation or charlaton. I am still positive dramonic is scum. Upon reflection, I do believe Devestation is the cop.

Rest of the scum is contained within Adam, Pim, charlatan, ryan.

Mod, what is the replacement status on players like Pim/Adam (or others) who haven't posted in nearly two weeks?

Still no reason for me to claim.

[charter]

Also Snake. I see he's left as well.

[charter]

I am loving the refusal to bus.

I am holding off on hammer because I want to hear Scott's answer.

Since when did you think I was scum? You get added to the list of possible scums because you've apparantly changed opinions on me but never made it well known.

[charter]

Changed opinion when it's convenient for scum to do so that is.

[charter]

Okay... so basically you're saying I'm scum with half the players in the game? XD

No. You're scum, and based off the interactions you've had, I've ruled several players out. With a bunch of players not even playing, it's very difficult to figure your partners out.

No Konowa, I'm not flailing. What brought about you suddenly thinking I'm scum? I'd understand completely if you were thinking of voting me because you wanted to ensure a lynch, but you're now saying you think I'm scummy. When and why did this change come around? I find Konowa trying to sneak his vote in by saying he's actually suspicious of me all of a sudden pretty scummy.

[charter]

Well, good luck town. Definately don't let dramonic live past tomorrow and force the lurkers/replacements to post a lot.

Go town!

[charter]

Nice. Good job guys! I would like to say I totally called dramonic/Devestation day one. I gave up Devestation when Konowa did, because I was pretty sure he was the cop, but when he stopped going after Devestation, I thought he wouldn't do that if he was the actual cop.

Seriously, there is nothing wrong with bandwagons, at all. I don't know why you guys found them so scummy.

Thanks for modding MonkeyMan!