Mini 809 ~ Mafia ViPod (Game Over!)

[VP Baltar]

/confirm, let's rock

[VP Baltar]

1. Atticus.Finch
5. hasdgfas
7. Lindisfarne
9. PaperPenguin

Foul on the play, delay of game.

[VP Baltar]

Five yard penalty, repeat first down?

Affirmative.

Nice avatar.

[VP Baltar]

Somehow I think she would enjoy that tooo much. Back evil temptress. How about some prods instead.

[VP Baltar]

Affirmative.

[VP Baltar]

OMGUS!

Vote Juls

You seem the type to tell lies, which I, of course, could never do.

Also,

@Vi: Awesome Battery Power ASCII art.

QFT.

[VP Baltar]

I'm think I'm not ho-ing it up enough. Suggestions?

[VP Baltar]

You can pm me later forbiddan.

On the topic of slow activity, however, I would move that the scum would be going especially out of their way to lurk in this game since it would actually have an effect upon the deadline. To that end, I move that lurking not be tolerated in the slightest for this game.

To that end,

Unvote, Vote hasdgfas

Claimed he could not find the thread initially and then he implied that he has a night action.

[VP Baltar]

And how does that imply I have a night action? Seriously, it's clarifying the rules.

So you were just worried about somebody who may potentially have a night action and were just trying to be helpful?

[VP Baltar]

Because implying you have a night action is a way to make yourself look like potential town and thus avoid being lynched.

I ask in thread(if I get the chance), because then if someone had the same question, they don't have to ask it.

Have you done something similar before. Do you have any games I could see where you asked about rule that in no way applied to you?

[VP Baltar]

Because implying you have a night action is a way to make yourself look like potential town and thus avoid being lynched.

Ugh, except this is a crap way of trying to avoid getting yourself lynched and I have no clue why you're pushing it so hard, VP.

Furthermore, the issue I have with softclaiming on D1 is why would you do that, ever? It basically guarantees you being the N1 NK.

I didn't say it was good logic to softclaim on D1. Also, I didn't know asking a couple questions to better understand someone's reasoning and to actually get the game moving in an actual direction is considered "pushing it so hard".

What do you propose we do to get out of the RVS?

[VP Baltar]

um, yeah....that's called computer meltdown.

Mod, can you fix that mess. Thanks

ABSOLUTELY NOT. ...wait, what mess?

(ftr, cleaned up four multiposts.) ~Vi

[VP Baltar]

No one said that he should be lynched for it. I think it did deserve clarification, however because I don't assume anyone to be an idiot, and I wouldn't expect someone with a powerrole to be foolishly asking questions like that in the thread. I could however see scum trying to buy town points subtly.

Regardless, hasdfgas has pointed to an example where he did something similar in another game, so it's a moot point now.

[VP Baltar]

I wanted him to clarify his reasons for asking a question in thread that could potentially be harmful to town when he very easily could have pm'ed the question to the mod.

Again, I assume no one to be stupid and the potential to have ulterior motives for asking such a question in the thread does exist.

[VP Baltar]

Because it was implying he had a night action, which could have potentially been a power role. My questioning has shown he has a penchant for asking these types of questions, and thus that implication is no longer valid. Why do you assume that only town persons would have seen his question?

[VP Baltar]

Why would cow implying he has a night action be harmful to the town?

Only if he's town and outed himself as a power role. In which case you shouldn't be voting for him, seeing as he's town, and a power role.

You don't think potentially outting yourself in the first few pages of a game as a powerrole is harmful to town?

My vote was for added pressure to my questioning. It's not like he's in danger of lynch.

I'm not assuming that. What does that have to do with anything?

I think you are very much assuming it. You're acting like I'm pointing out something that was barely noticable and could be endangering hasdfgas. The question was very obvious in the sense that i think most people saw it and would have made a mental note of it.

I'm willing to admit that perhaps my questioning was a bit risky, but I think the answers that hasdfgas gave proved to be beneficial to the town. Would you disagree?

If he's scum trying to set up a fake claim, I don't see how that's so harmful to town. Faking a power role is not that easy, contrary to popular belief, and there will be multiple ways to catch him if that's what he's trying to do.

I disagree. The earlier scum build fakeclaims in games the more likely they are to look protown when they claim later. If a hypo-scum claimed a powerrole in a game and pointed out breadcrumbs from the first few pages of the game, you are telling me that you'd still be highly doubtful of the claim?

[VP Baltar]

I think what you are trying to say is that you did NOT think there was any chance that cow was a power role, and that you thought cow was planting that in advance of a fake claim and so it was inherently scummy. You're saying no real power role would ask a question in thread because they wouldn't want to draw attention to themselves.

I did not actually say that there was no chance of that. I do, however, think it would be more likely as a scum move than a town move.

My question to you, VP, do you still think what cow did was scummy? Or do you think he just tends to like to nail down the rules?

I think he has effectively shown that he likes to nail down the rules. And I'll preempt you on your next question of 'why is my vote still there?'...because it will move as soon as I have a new suspect to put it on. It's not hurting anything where it is at currently, and if hasdfgas were to start gaining a wagon based solely on the points I raised you can rest assured that I would remove it immediately.

[VP Baltar]

Doesn't questioning him about it right now make it lose it's power somewhat?

Not in my opinion, no. It has been effectively pointed out for everyone to see. As for me saving it for later...that's not really how I play. I don't really take notes on games as I'm playing, so if it came up weeks and weeks later where hasdfgas claimed it is very likely that I would have forgotten. How does keeping it to myself help the accusation gain any "power" later, as opposed to nipping it in the bud initially?

[VP Baltar]

And what makes his question/breadcrumb more likely to be a scum move than a town move?

I don't assume anyone to be an idiot, and I wouldn't expect someone with a powerrole to be foolishly asking questions like that in the thread. I could however see scum trying to buy town points subtly.

Do you view all breadcrumbs that way? If not, what was more scummy about this one?

No. Why this one stood out to me is the same answer as to the first question. It was done in a very obvious way, which isn't something you expect from a protown person that would be highly interested in keeping themselves safe at the same time they are breadcrumbing.

[VP Baltar]

If what you say is true, you wouldn't have believed the claim and you could have used this whole thing as a way of saying why.

And what if I had forgotten the point later? That would not have been very beneficial at all, and I don't think the scenario you are describing would have added any power to my point.

[VP Baltar]

I didn't

force

anyone besides hascow to talk about it. I also dropped it when he explained his thinking to me.

Explain how I forced others to talk about it? I never asked for anyone else's opinion on the matter. In fact, you're the one who continues to bring it up after I've answered your questions for nearly two pages to the point where you are asking the same questions again. Does that mean you are now trying to get people to "give more information about who might be power roles and who might not be"?

[VP Baltar]

well, I'm just saying that you can't really act like I'm protracting this discussioin when you are in fact the one doing it. I'm pretty sure I have explained my motivations long ago. What do you need explained further that I have not given sufficient reasons for?

You may have considered it a risky move, but I think by the end of my interaction with hasdfgas the town is the one who benefited overall. I guess it's up to your gut at this point what you think my intentions were.

[VP Baltar]

I would have waited until tomorrow before suggesting that hasd is actively baiting a nightkill, something useful might happen if the scum try to reach for the lowest hanging fruit.

Explain.

[VP Baltar]

Sure it's rather crappy for a serious vote reason, but look where it's come to now. You're still voting cow for lack of a better target, I expect you should find one pretty soon.

Well considering there wasn't much else to comment on and people were only talking about me, it's a bit tough to find a target.

HOWEVER

I believe votes have always been indicative of lynching intent. When you said this, you did want cow to hang because that's what your actions had shown.

On the other hand, e_K's questions all feel like loaded ones that goad VPB into particular responses.

Unvote
Vote VPB
FoS e_k

First of all, you are utterly wrong that every vote shows lynching intent. But that is apprantly how you feel your votes should be weighed. So, we look at your vote. You want me dead and think I'm scum. Here is the important part: You simultaneously FoS EK, meaning you must think she is scum as well and would like her dead after I'm gone. This is all based on your premise that votes show lynching intent (and by extension somewhat, FoS's).

I find it a bit ridiculous that you think both EK and I could be scum. What I think is more likely is that you sensed the slight anti-EK sentiment building given her questioning and wanted to get your two sense in their early.

Unvote, Vote Pesco47

Add to that your attempt to get me to move my vote. I said on page three that I would move it when I found someone scummy and before the end of page 4 you're acting like I'm keeping it there because I can't build a case on anyone. You're really reaching for reasons to pad out your vote and make it look legit it seems to me.

Also, I hope people note how fast the wagon on me built. L-2 on page 4. I would almost guarantee there are one or two scum in there somewhere.

[VP Baltar]

EBWOP: two cents

Also, ftr, I leaning EK being town right now. Even though she was inflating her argument against me, she seemd to have town intentions.

[VP Baltar]

This does not make me feel comfortable. There is a technique called bussing. It's entirely possible both of you are scum, and your argument reinforces that for me. I just plain don't like this.

Yes, there is such a thing as bussing and it is possible that we are both scum, however, most scum partners would not begin bussing their partners on page two, argue for two full pages (with hardly anyone else interjecting) and sit by while their partner went to L-1. It could happen, sure, but it's not bloody likely.

My reason for voting pesco was also because his reasons for voting me looking really disingenuous. This was pretty clearly stated in my voting post.

I think it's quite interesting that you admit that how fast my wagon was moving was "reckless", and yet the very legitimate possibility of pesco trying to hop on easily seems less likely to you than EK and I coordinating a trap against him.

[VP Baltar]

First, I will say of Pesco, I don't find him particularly scummy for voting VP Baltar whilst FoS'ing elvis. The way I interpret this is as an assertion that "(VP B is scum OR elvis is scum) AND (VP B scum more likely than elvis scum)", which is an acceptable belief.

I don't think that is what he said at all actually. Give me your thoughts on these quotes:

There's no good reason for me not to suspect the both of you.

If I don't have 2 votes to throw around, I make do with a FoS. In my mind, I've already lined them up as my lynch preferences.

[VP Baltar]

Who knows Empking's meta?

I do. He just acts like a nussiance all game and explians his motives very little. He is nearly impossible to read and is certainly not someone you want around in lylo.

[VP Baltar]

PaperPenguin, your vote is still on X fromt he random stage. We'll likely be at halfway to deadline very soon...who is your top suspect or who do you think would be worth lynching at this point in time?

[VP Baltar]

I would like you to explain, Pesco, how I am "flinging whatever sticks to cow"? Does it seem to you like I would back his lynch?

Also, how certain are you that either EK or I are scum? If one of us was lynched and flipped down would that make you more assured the other was scum? Why or why not?

[VP Baltar]

EBWOP: should say "flipped town" above

[VP Baltar]

It doesn't remove the fact that you did want to lynch him in the beginning.

I never said I wanted him lynched as far as I recall. And in fact, once he answered my questions I pulled off of him immediately. I would like you to quote me where I wanted him lynched.

I'm as certain as you are about your suspects. If one of you flip town, there are no assurances since anything can happen at night. My assumptions are subject to change once we've seen more info.

Two players alone wouldn't make a scumteam if we were to go by standard distributions. But these two players are where we're going to find links

These quotes don't agree for me. In the first one you are saying that if one of us was lynched and came up town your "assumptions are subject to change", but then you are saying that Ek and I are "where we're going to find links".

Once again, you appear to be trying to have it both ways simultaneously.

[VP Baltar]

You got served, Juls. You should know the mod is revisionist.

@forbidden, are you still happy with your vote on Empking?

Paperpenguin, what about you and image?

[VP Baltar]

You're very UTR.

I don't know if I agree with this. She seems to be posting nearly everyday and is adding content. Please explain how she is going under the radar.

[VP Baltar]

Like I said earlier, she's not UTR as in never here. In fact, I agree with you that she's present often and is making good posts. I was trying to say that she's UTR as in her posts just seem to go by with no mention.

So, she's posting frequently and making good posts, but because people aren't following up on what she says you think there is the potential she could be scum?

[VP Baltar]

Scratch that. My bad memory was telling me that you brought up the UTR thing as saying she was slighly scummy for it. Looking back, I see that you were just stating your reason why you didn't mention her.

[VP Baltar]

Chainsaw defense, that's how this could possibly be percieved as a reason against me. There is kinship between scotty and Image.

You can't claim this if we have not alignment flips. I find this really irritating and it has been happening more often in my games recently. I find it more scummy to say this with no clue of alignments than to actually attack somebody's attacker.

Oh, and I am a miller, not that it matters at this point.

Why would you not claim this immediately at the start of the game? This just looks like your way of avoiding an investigation if you survive the day.

Right now I am going to leave my vote on Pesco, but I am going to take some time to do a solid reread today and I might switch to PP. His play has been pretty scummy and that miller thing is just ridiculous at this point.

I also think we should try to come to some sort of a concensus today as to who to lynch so we will have time to assess that persons roleclaim. At best I would say we have 3 or 4 days until deadline.

[VP Baltar]

EBWOP: have not had any alignment flips.

[VP Baltar]

Because it could just as easily be completely unrelated. You're using it as a point to discount what he is saying, which I think is stupid unless there have been flips.

[VP Baltar]

He is obviously either kissing up, or blindly defending. Having a flip or not is irrelevant to this point. Oh and what exactly am I discounting?

Sotty made a valid point that you attacked imagine for lurking right after he posted. This is especially suspicious considering it was a substantial post regarding your scumminess.

You are trying to discount Sotty's point by saying she's (sorry for the wrong pronoun use earlier) chainsawing for Image, when really she likely just pointing out something she thought you did that was suspicious.

Having a flip is relevant because, at the very best, what you are saying only has a 50/50 shot of being true, and is probably much less likely than that.

[VP Baltar]

This is especially suspicious considering it was a substantial post regarding your scumminess.

This is in reference to Image's post, not Sotty's.

[VP Baltar]

PP, can you give us your flavor now.

[VP Baltar]

That's all the flavor you have PP?

Happy Scumday, Vi! I'm mailing your present of a free Daykill (redeemable at anytime in any game).

[VP Baltar]

Logic point, Juls!

[VP Baltar]

I have no idea why you have put Juls in the “town” cateroy here. She has been pretty absent and her fixation on empking despite having played with him before makes her look pretty bad to me.

Hold the phone. I thought Juls had never played with him before or something? If this is true, then Juls definitely needs another look because I think one game with Emp is enough to understand you can't expect any better out of him. Do you know which game this was Sotty?

[VP Baltar]

Juls, can you explain what the difference in Empking's play in this game is to where you have seen him before. Also, can you link the game(s) where you have played with him or seen him play.

[VP Baltar]

Happy Birthday, Juls!

said the mod. ~Vi

I'll check out that game later today probably.

[VP Baltar]

I don't care about any trumpet playing band.



Also, people should actually talk in this game. Makes it more fun.

[VP Baltar]

I want everyone in this game topost where I voted or encouraged others to vote EK,. today. Since you're saying I was making a case against her.

Vote; EK

- For lying and making a false case.

Irony is delicious!

Proper post coming later today.

[VP Baltar]

Catching up a bit.

@Juls--I will give you that he was a bit more active in the Vengeful game, but not terribly so. I don't think Mish Mash has anything do with mafia, so that means nothing to me. I'm a bit torn on you not knowing Emp's meta because, well, that is like someone saying they don't know zwet's meta. These are people who are generally mentioned together and their reputations tend to proceed them in most every game I've seen or played with them in. If you were newer I could understand, but you've been around long enough for me to believe you would have at least heard of Emp and his awful play.

Furthermore, the only game I have been in with Emp where he was scum was Carnival Mafia and he was reasonably active as well.

Unfortunately, these things on their own mean a mountain of squat pretty much because it's too much speculation.

On the other hand, we have utter ridiculousness:

Has: You for hypocrisy and EK for reasons I can't recall.

The argument against him wanting Ek lynched even though he thinks she is scummy is very odd as well.

All that being said, Empking lynch makes me leery...as it always does. This is the problem with him and zwet. It always seems too easy a lynch for the scum to get. Ugh.

In other news: wagon peak analysis!

PaperPenguin (LYNCH) ~ image, X, Sotty7, Moriarty147, Empking, forbiddanlight, Juls

Pesco47 (L-2) ~ Moriarty147, VP Baltar, elvis_knits, hasdgfas, Juls

VP Baltar (L-4) ~

Juls

, Sotty7,

elvis_knits

, Empking, Pesco47

It should be noted as well that Emp was on my wagon at one point when it started gaining steam, which he did so with the fantastic reasoning of "rolefishing".

So, looking back at these votes and the day I'd like to hear some answers to these questions:

X, do you think there was scum on the PP lynch? If so, who?

Emp, you didn't comment at all yesterday about Pesco...what are your feelings on him in general and also the way he linked EK and I?

Juls, you were on all of the major wagons and when you weren't on one of those you had your vote parked on Emp. Why did you switch your vote to Pesco even though you had been arguing with Emp most of the day?


That's a start.

[VP Baltar]

So, I take it that vote count is a lyrics correction aimed at me. I see how it is.

[VP Baltar]

All that being said, Empking lynch makes me leery...as it always does. This is the problem with him and zwet. It always seems too easy a lynch for the scum to get. Ugh.

Sometimes scummy playstyles actually do roll scum.

You have to go for it sometimes.

So you are saying that you'd be good with following through with the Emp lynch right now without hesitation?

[VP Baltar]

I'm finding your play this game incredibly lazy forb. Have you looked into other peoples' claims that this is his meta at all?

[VP Baltar]

On Pesco; I got a town readf on him.

Based on what? Why did you not comment on him at all D1 even though he was a major discussion point?

[VP Baltar]

Juls, you were on all of the major wagons and when you weren't on one of those you had your vote parked on Emp. Why did you switch your vote to Pesco even though you had been arguing with Emp most of the day?

The following people should start playing this game: EK, Emp, hasdfgas, image, moriarty147, Sotty.

[VP Baltar]

And by the way you are misrepping me here. You said I had been arguing Empking most of the day before I voted Pesco. In the very same post I tralked about my problems with pesco's linking ek/VP. During the posts between my Empking vote and Pesco vote I did not argue with Empking or try to convince anyone to switch their vote to him. Prior to my vote on Empking I did not discuss him in any serious manner.

Ok, it looks like I was misplacing the order of events a bit. Your back and forth with Emp took place largely after your Pesco vote. However, what I said is still accurate in the sense that Emp is your most serious vote before Pesco. Even in your vote on Pesco you're still sure to mention your suspicion on Emp (FoS). You're also quick to go at emp for most of the rest of the day and return your vote to him with little to no questioning really directed at anyone else.

The problem with all of this, of course, is the way PP claimed miller. I can't really blame you for putting your vote there because it was scummy as hell.

I think it is a bit interesting how you are suddenly getting cold feet about Emp now that his wagon is actually gaining steam. You said you would like to "explore more options"...may I inquire who you think is worth exploring?

Also, why did you feel the need to explain your reasons for being on each of the wagons you were on yesterday when I only asked you why you switched your vote to Pesco?

[VP Baltar]

Please explain.

Post more frequently and do more active scumhunting. It's rather simple.

[VP Baltar]

Vote Juls

@hascow--your play for day 2 so far has most certainly not been active scumhunting. Even D1 after you stopped being suspicious you sort of started to feel like wallpaper to me.

[VP Baltar]

Cows post in 332 is excellenta, I must say. I want to hear what image has to say.

Why are people voting Juls instead of Empking? As far as I see, all of the reasons for Juls to be scum amount to buddying with Empking.

Meh, that's not really my point. Emp has acted scummy and I think players would probably be determining if it was just his playstyle coming into effect or him actually being scum. My argument is that Juls was arguing for him being scum a good portion of D1, but once his lynch gains steam she unvotes him and says we should explore other options.

Then, when I ask her who her other options would be, she ignores my question. I call her on backing off of emp easily and she is quick to throw her vote back on. Her flipping with the slightest bit of questioning looks scummy to me.

re: Emp potentially being a jester--It's a possibility, but I don't really see his play as fitting into this very well, particularly his lurking. Most jesters I've seen are so overbearingly annoying that it is quite obvious (to me anyhow, usually they still get lynched). He has made some bad logic this game for sure, but that seems pretty much par for his course. I personally feel that he'd be a lot more present and obviously bad if he actually were a jester because he certainly isn't making much of an appearance today. Furthermore, we're not seeing any evidence of town aligned killing role at this point, so that makes it even less likely.

I personally don't like to let jesters win. So, if I thought that were the case I would probably be against his lynch, but I don't feel like it is very likely right now.

I am also seeing some similarities with VP Baltar that I saw in our previous game where he was scum but I will need to reread to be more definitive on this.

heh, what a surprise.

[VP Baltar]

How is Juls' stance toward Empking scummy if Empking is town?

Because she could now be trying to distance herself from a townie lynch. Obviously, hypo-scum Juls has already been on one townie lynch and would potentially not want to be on another because late game wagon analysis would implicate her as scum for this.

[VP Baltar]

Sorry, I was busy big time yesterday. I'm going to try and catch up in this game a little bit later (though it doesn't look like I missed a whole lot). I would say, however, that the sheer lack of activity in this game looks like scum trying to quickly drive down the deadline.

Proper post coming sometime today.

[VP Baltar]

Did Emp just claim scum?

[VP Baltar]

When a poor player does something blatantly scummy its scummier than if you have to look deeply for it.

This seems pretty good reason to list most of your actions in this game as being scummy.

[VP Baltar]

Except you ALWAYS look scummy. You aren't very aware of your own meta are you?

[VP Baltar]

That is really all you have to say after doing your reread tubby?

[VP Baltar]

VP: Somebody can't always look scummy.

Do you ever have any games where you aren't suspected as scum? I've never seen any myself.

Did you breadcrumb your role at all?

[VP Baltar]

Any games where you haven't been?

Sure.

Also, can you explain why Juls would be a better lynch than you today?

[VP Baltar]

I can't believe you don't remember Right Said Fred, EK. I love the SNL skit where Conan O'Brien plays one of the guys.

On a serious note, I want to hear from Moriarty (hopefully) before anyone hammers.

[VP Baltar]

However, I can't really see you taking a hard stance on lurking after this.

Really? I've been asking people to post when I feel they have been lagging. I don't know what else I can do unless they give me their addresses and I can literally force them to type a post.

Most people noticed his comment but you shined a flashlight on it. Of course that is going to start conversation. Further, you contradict yourself. In post 66 you claim that you were getting the game moving and in 87 you act like you didn't invite opinions on the matter.

It was getting the game going, but saying I forced people to talk about it is BS. If someone thought it was scummy to talk about it then they were welcome to abstain. My main issue was using the word "force" because that is simply trying to scapegoat somebody.

The problem was you left your vote on has while saying you believed that he just wanted an explanation of the rules. Why did you feel the need to let your vote ride there?

Pretty sure this came up already. I guess your reread conveniently skimmed over that part. I like to always have my vote on someone and it certainly wasn't hurting hascow being there. I moved it as soon as I found a better option.

This is a misrepresentation of what Pesco was saying.

No it wasn't. He was directly asked if he thought we were both scum, iirc. Guess you missed that in your reread as well.

I felt this way about Vi in Cowboy Bebop briefly.

So, you are saying I'm scum because of a tell you read against a town player in Cowboy Bebop? That's some pretty sound logic.

For the record. I am completely aware of his meta. Completely. At no point did I pretend that I was not aware that he tends to be useless and short.

Even more reason to lynch you! You make no attempt to asses him on actual logic points or based on his actions in the game towards other players, but you would rather lynch him because he is being "useless and short" more than you expected. That reeks of scum trying to push an easy lynch in my eyes. If you were town you'd be looking at who he is voting for and when, and try to actually determine his alignment rather than just saying 'oh, hey, this guy isn't posting very much. he must be scum.'

Anytime VP starts a sentence like this I immediately am suspicious.

So, you are saying...jk

No where did FL say that she wants to lynch without hesitation.

Actually she answered that question in the affirmative. More things missed on this reread you were doing. tsk tsk.

I did not ignore the question. I thought it was pretty clear I was V/LA and was only posting quick short posts. EVERYWHERE on the site, not just here. I simply didn't have the time to do analysis of others at that point. I also explain my switch to Empking earlier in this post (see the Empking section).

Because it certainly would have taken you forever to name people you thought were suspicious, which was all I asked you to do.

Does everyone else not see that VP is setting me up as tomorrows lynch no matter WHAT Empking flips?

Actually, I would prefer you died today. Hence the vote.

-------------------------

More people vote Juls.

[VP Baltar]

Saying over and over that I "missed" things in my reread is a mudslinging tactic I would expect from scum.

Or pointing out how you are conveniently skimming over things to fit your argument.

I did not miss where you said you "like to have your vote on someone all the time" I just don't buy it. A quick glance of the vote counts in Cowboy Beebop shows me that a good portion of D2 and D3 you were not voting anyone. It's not a huge point of contention but noteworthy that your claimed stance is not your M.O.

You using one game as meta against me is ridiculously narrow-sighted. Also, it doesn't even make sense. You are saying I did not to have my vote out at certain points in that game as scum, but the fact that I do have my vote out makes me scummy. I suggest you look at some of my town games if you plan to actually use this as an argument.

Pesco was asked if he thought both you two were scum and he left the option open that you two could be scum together but I got the impression he thought it could be one or the other. I have no problem with this sort of conjecture on D1.

Or it looks like chaining lynches, which I was under the impression you had a problem with. Isn't that what you said I was doing with you and Emp? Why the double standard for Pesco?

There you go again with that "So you are saying"

Get over yourself. It's just how I talk. It is a phrase that is seeking clarification. I'm not asking rhetorical questions with a preconceived conclusion. When I read what a player writes I interpret it a certain way, and if I feel it could be interpreted an alternative way I will ask something along these lines for clarification. I fail to see how that is scummy.

I didn't imply you are scum because of it although your hypersensitivity is noted.

Well, it was in your case against me, so I assume you were trying to say it was at least potentially scummy behaviour. If that isn't what you were saying, then what were you implying from it? Also, your attempt to paint me as "hypersensitive" by simply responding to a point you made is noted.

Even Empking scum hunts in other games even if it is unconventional.

Not really.

It doesn't matter how she answered after the fact. The point was that isn't what she said and you twisted it into that. Just because FL didn't mind this characterization doesn't mean that is what she said initially.

It most certainly does matter. How is that not what she said when she confirmed my interpretation of her statement? How are you the all knowing master of what f-light meant by her statement? Again, seeking clarification of a point is not a scumtell and you are certainly reaching a great distance to make me appear scummy.

You don't get it. It's not that I didn't have time to write a few names down. It was that I was not paying close enough attention to have any other suspects. I needed to do this reread to form some more solid opinions.

Meh, perhaps. I was under the impression you were at least skimming along though. My point at that time was that you hadn't really expanded upon your suspicions beyond Empking. You had read all of day 1, and i would think from that you could have at least given a second or third potential suspect even if you weren't completely caught up. More often than not it is the scum who focus on one target at a time because they are only concerned about the next mislynch.

Yet you don't even comment on my explanation of my behavior concerning these two things.

You going V/LA didn't exactly help. I plan to have the full response up today.

Right now my feeling is that Juls is either 1) scum OMGUSing hard because she was nailed in her interaction with Emp, or 2) town that is being seriously biased by me being scum in the recently completed Cowboy Bebop Mafia.

[VP Baltar]

Really? There are games where nobody has found you scummy? Links?

viewtopic.php?t=10946
Mafia 91. I was scum and was basically unsuspected other than an OMGUS from Harvey Pew, until Vi outted me through an investigation.
viewtopic.php?t=10726
Open 122. I was town and everyone knew it except some OMGUS from dejkha and kreriov.

Sotty and EK can also attest to Amnesia Mafia. I was scum in the game, but wasn't really suspected with any seriousness until the final day when town confirmations and a roleclaim were my undoing.

I have a couple of ongoings that I was killed D1 for being too town and having no suspicion on me. I won't link them, but you can find them through my wiki.

So yes, it is possible to play without being suspicious.

Juls would be a better lynch that me because I'm town.

That is thoroughly unhelpful.

[VP Baltar]

Getting a vote and being legitimately considered scummy are not the same thing. If those votes are from people OMGUSing me after I make cases against them (Juls) I don't consider it very serious as much as I do an emotional response.

Being lynched by confirmations or a cop investigation is not the same as being scummy either.

Try again.

[VP Baltar]

Your claim is you like to keep your vote on someone. I expect that to mean that VP-alignment-independent always leave your vote on someone. I am saying you claiming it as your M.O. was a convienant excuse.

But my point is that if you are going to argue a meta arguement like that, you have to look at more than one game. I would agree with you that there were moments in Cowboy that I didn't have my vote out, but that was largely due to extraneous circumstances of a lot of town players being at least semi-confirmed in the game. It was far more challenging than the average game for the scum to put their votes out because if it was done without stating very good reasons why it would have looked highly suspicious. My point stands that you are being very narrow-sighted arguing this as a meta thing.

this argument has gone down such a side path. My initial point was that you aren't really pushing lurkers even though you seemed to feel so strongly about it in the beginning.

Well I have brought up several times when I feel people are lurking. I'm not going to switch my vote every two seconds because someone is lurking. This is particularly true when I received no verbal support from anyone else in the game that lurking should be frowned upong. Plus, outright scuminess > than lurking even if it is more of an offense in this game.

How is me voting for someone I consider scummy in their actions instead of someone I see as potentially scummy for lurking scummy itself? I'm really missing the point of your argument here.

Please see my post 404. I admitted that I wasn't playing to my full potential due to outside circumstances.

That may be, but my point still stands unless you are rescinding yours. If you are going to levy the accusation of me chaining lynches I would like to know why you didn't attack Pesco for this.

First...you know me from last game. I do not appreciate the "Get over yourself" part and I think you know that. I would prefer we have a civil conversation and that to me is a personal attack.

I'm not trying to make it personal, I'm simply pointing out that you should consider that your interpretation of my comments may not be the correct one. I point out why I don't think my speaking that way is scummy or leading people to anything (I resent being compared to Sean Hannity!), but you didn't respond to this. I'm asking a fair question that I feel is seeking clarification and not coming to a preconceived conclusion. You are making it seem like I am saying: Translation, "*fill in whatever conclusion fits my case*". I think this is an unfair characterization.


Juls' post in 420 is giving me town vibes, unfortunately.

Juls, can you explain what made me jump so far ahead in scumminess for you, as opposed to Emp who you suspected all day yesterday and have said hasn't improved his play today? Do you feel that any part of your case is OMGUS or residual suspicion from Cowboy Bebop?

-----------------

every time someone has made a comment about buddies not bussing someone in D1 so far it has turned out that they were scumbuddies with that person

Got links to back these vague suspicions of yours?

Furthermore, your vote for Juls in 324 seems a bit out-of-nowhere, VPB.

Can you please give me your interpretation of her backing off of Emp and then going back on his wagon after I pressured her. Preferably before this day ends.

I'm not sure why it's "obvious" that this would implicate her as scum, given how mafia works by definition there are always going to be some townies on townie wagons, and therefore I'm not sure why the threat of *gasp* being on TWO WHOLE TOWNIE WAGONS, especially on people who are either being suspicious as all hell (PP) or playing beyond horribly (Empking) in earlygame would make her be worried enough to try to make a really awkward wagon jump off of Empking on D2.

Wagon analysis later would dictate that any scum would not want to be on every townie lynch. This is obviously getting into the world of WIFOM, but stick with me. My thought process is that a scum player could see an Emp wagon as one that would be easy to jump off because it will probably go through anyhow. Hell, even if she had just jumped off it wouldn't have bothered me so much, but getting back on immediately after I put mild pressure on her looks suspicious. You describe it as "awkward", but do you find it suspicious at all? why or why not?

VPB...despite the evidence making him look Townie, for some reason I'm very nervous about him for some reason gut-wise. I'm not sure why, but it's definetly something to keep my eye on for the rest of the game.

Ugh, this is starting to be my anthem I think. I basically hear this at least once every game regardless of alignment. I still don't get where it comes from.

Where the hell is image?

[VP Baltar]

VP and you and Sotty misrepresenting everything I say

Hyperbole much.

The way I understood Pesco on my reread is that he/she was saying if we lynched one of you we would find links to other players. I didn't see it as he/she was trying to lynch you both. Maybe I misunderstood but that is what I took from it.

I didn't say he was saying he wanted us lynched immediately, however, he did appear to be trying to chain our lynches, which is why I questioned you. He voted me and FoSed EK in the same post, which most definitely looks like trying to play both sides of an argument we were having at that time. This apparently wasn't suspicious to you. Fine.

However, later when I am saying I want you lynched because you are being suspiciously wishy-washy about your number one suspect Empking, you try to claim that I am chaining his lynch and your lynch. As far as I remember, I haven't even voted Empking or said in any substantial way that I want his lynch, let alone in relation to your lynch.

It appears his lynch is going to happen out of policy today, and I can't say I'm going to stand in its way, but it should be fairly obvious that I would prefer your lynch today.

Why in the world would I be suspicious of you based on Bebop? I am not dumb.

I never said you were. Having your suspicions of somebody colored by a very recently completed game is probably quite common. It actually happened to me because of that game. Zilla and I were Pale Moon Rising together and I was certain she was scum because I was reading her behavior as the same as Cowboy Bebop. We were both town. You don't have to be dumb for that to happen.

I'm not even sure anymore what you think I am OMGUSing.

I do actually. One only needs to look at your tubby vote to see how you react when someone expresses the slightest suspicion on you.

[VP Baltar]

Upon fear of modkill, welcome to our family Hero 76

4

.

~Vi

[VP Baltar]

Hi, Truant. I like you already. Have you read the whole game so far? Thoughts on any other players?

Oh, and

Vote Juls

. Should have happened yesterday.

[VP Baltar]

Also note that VP said he was "getting town vibes" from me in one of his last posts of the day.

I got town vibes from your one post yes. It did remind me a touch of your play in Cowboy Bebop early on when you were getting beat on for the miller thing. However, vibes don't negate your utterly bizarre behaviour regarding Empking.

Also, you suddenly feeling the need to claim with only two votes looks like you are just trying to draw pity and avoid a lynch.

What happened to your suspicions of tubby? What is your real case against me other than you are allegedly town and I'm trying to get you lynched? Do you have any substantial suspicions against someone who

hasn't

said they would be willing to lynch you first?

[VP Baltar]

Remember, town, that VP was the one that gave an out for lynching me no matter how Empking flipped.

Quote please where I even mentioned your lynches in relation to one another. You keep pushing this idea and it is utterly untrue. I wanted you lynched yesterday, not Empking. I said this quite clearly actually. It didn't happen, unfortunately. How does that have anything to do with Empking's lynch?

Let's have a hypothetical here VP. It's Day 4, I have been lynched and I flip Vanilla Townie...your reaction...let's hear it!

No matter what I say here you are going to say it is somehow scummy, thus making this a ridiculous line of discussion. If I say 'well, Juls was acting scummy and deserved to be lynched', you will say that I'm trying to avoid responsibility. If I say, 'I take responsibility, but must have misread Juls', you are going to say it's evidence of how I was "misrepping" you. Either way, I lose and you get to continue your pity party.

You are my top suspect and have been for sometime, thus I want you lynched. Unlike you, however, I continue to follow other leads while in pursuit of my top suspect.

Do you honestly feel you have not acted scummy this game?

[VP Baltar]

@ Juls-I don't think the quote you cite is really me chaining your lynch to Empking's alignment. I gave a hypothetical reason I thought could be valid as to why you would unvote Empking for seemingly little to no reason. If I had been pushing for Empking's lynch yesterday, then I would say that you have a valid point, but I most certainly was not.

You later claim that you unvoted because you were worried about him being a Jester, which is strange since you have apparently never even played with a Jester before. Did you assume a Jester lynch automatically ended the game? If so, why?

Sorry, you guys weren't #1 on my to do list while at Disney World.

WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU !!!!!! I should obviously be your number one life concern. Cheese and rice, as the mod might say. Cheese and rice.

Lies!

I

should be Juls' #1 concern! ~Vi

------------------

Happy scumday, X!

VPB, Juls' question about your reaction to her flipping VT is a legitimate question. I think you should answer it.

The fact that she didn't reply to my remarks on it somewhat shows that I beat her to what she was going to say. However, if you would like a reply to it, no problem.

If Juls flips town, I have no problem taking my share of the blame for the lynch. I think she has acted scummy and have fairly clearly (imo) shown why, but if people find I was being scummy in pursuing her lynch then I guess I will have questions to answer. I don't really know what else to say to that question.

What would your outlook on me be if Juls flips town X?

VPB, what do you think of tubby?

I think the way he expressed support for the juls wagon yesterday was a bit shady, and I certainly didn't think much of his predecessor. Overall, he's pretty high on my suspicion list and we need to hear a lot more from him today.

[VP Baltar]

Sorry guys, I haven't been reading as much as I would like. I'll try to be caught up this evening.

Hope you keep this promise. we need more diversity of opinions in this game.

[VP Baltar]

plus i do not see the police as a protoen role to have in this game.

Would this fall in your top three reasons for voting her?

[VP Baltar]

depending on Juls, tubby.

I would like you to expand upon this please.

I'm not sure I can see myself voting anyone but juls today. But I am interested in talking some more because they day hasn't gone on too long yet

These are pretty much my feelings.

[VP Baltar]

So you are considering tubby and Juls to potentially be scum partners?

[VP Baltar]

I have been lax in this game the past few days because of work. I actually have free time after I finish my story this evening, so I should be able to actually use and give some content tonight.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, spent a little bit of time looking back over the day.

First, Hero needs to come back here and expand on his suspicions, big time. I didn't particularly care for forbidden's sit back and do little attitude, but I have seen her get into that mode before so I didn't consider it overly scummy. Then Hero replaces and says next to nothing. It took him three days to post after he said he was going to give something from his reread, and then all we get is three names and an 'I gotta run'. Unless you're an international spy or a REALLY slow typer, I think you can probably manage a little better than that. Again, I hope you deliver this content you promised.

I agree with EK about tubby pretty much exactly. I didn't care for Pesco, so that is probably a big part of my suspicions on tubby. I don't know your meta, but I hope you don't plan on using the 'I don't want to incriminate myself' card as an excuse to lurk.

I like the fact that Truant is posting a lot more than image was. Hopefully this continues because image was basically wallpaper to me.

For some reason I have no read either way on X, and this is a bit worrisome to me this far in the game. I need to reread you in iso.

[VP Baltar]

I'm here, I just had another game I was pages behind in yesterday and had to catch up. Will post here in few hours probably.

[VP Baltar]

Truant is pushing tubby for a really weak reason. I'd like to hear his opinion on VPB.

I think this is actually worth hearing I think.

"Everyone could be scum" from Cow's perspective means that Cow is scum. This definitely is an accident, but it would certainly be more likely to come from scum than town. Cow has not said much, but did have that good catch about image.

I don't agree that this statement is cow slipping about his alignment. The word technically seems very important to what he was saying there, so I don't quite get where you are coming from.

I feel unloved.

Sorry. *commences iso read of X*

Ok, other than his suspicions being a little misguided toward players who have been confirmed as town, I don't see anything that stands out as particularly scummy about X. I think early on you were definitely in the background a bit, but your activity has been better as a recent. Right now my read would be townish.

Oh, and have a fun vacation! Free ones are the best.

Re:hero--Don't forget that he said he had caught up. What is truly upsetting is that he had nine posts yesterday on the site. If this trend continues I might be willing to lynch him. Juls has acted scummy, but at least she is contributing. By lurking Hero could just be trying to drive down the battery power and make us hurry to the Juls lynch.

[VP Baltar]

Thanks for the prod, mod. This day has proven to be a very large waste. Juls, you had better be scum.

[VP Baltar]

Hero hasn't posted on the site since Friday. I have a feeling he isn't coming back until the next day. I say hammer.

[VP Baltar]

I basically agree with what X said.

Right now, I am feeling more confident in my town reads than my scum reads, which almost guarantees to me that the scum can be found in Hero764, hasdgfas, tubby216, and Sotty7.

We definitely need to hear from Hero, and I need to collect my thoughts a bit before I determine who I think would be the best lynch.

[VP Baltar]

Seeing as this is likely lylo, claiming pretty much needs to happen today. I have my own ideas about what I would like to see the order be, but we can discuss the claiming format when we reach that point. Right now, Hero must post first as he has said absolutely nothing.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, Hero, I want to sum up your cases here into bullet points:

X

1) Bad vibes from you gut
2) He was on PP and Empking's lynch for what you feel to be bad reasons

EK

1) You think the one post you quoted has scum motivations
2) WIFOM that the Moriarty kill makes her look good, while making Image look bad
3) Bandwagoning
4) Possible hypocrisy on Emp wagon

Is this a fair summation of your points against both of your main suspects?


Also, what are your feelings on massclaim today? Should it happen? What do you think the order of claiming should be?

[VP Baltar]

Oh, and tubby and hasdfgas need to post. Like I said before, lurking is likely to be a tool of scum to drive down the battery in this game. It's simply not acceptable at this stage of the game.

[VP Baltar]

I dunno. I'm indifferent to it right now. What are the benefits of doing it(I've never been in a game with mass claiming)?

How many games have you played here?

[VP Baltar]

I find it utterly strange that you have never seen a mass claim before then.

[VP Baltar]

X, you were in Mini765 with Hero, did a mass claim take place there at all?

Looks like you replaced out of your other mini early.

skimmed your newbie games and I didn't see any talk of mass claims in them. So, maybe you haven't. Still seems weird it wouldn't have happened in a game you were in or at least read before.

To answer your question about benefits of mass claim, it is beneficial because it can potentially help to confirm players and town and thus lessen the pool of potential scum. As this is likely lylo, we need to increase our odds of hitting scum as much as we can.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, so maybe Hero doesn't understand massclaim and that would explain his slight hesitance, but I really don't like his cases on X and EK, two players who I believe are likely town.

The cases seem very contrived if you ask me, and hardly substantial enough to call someone scum. They are looking at very specific incidents that are removed from any sort of context and are backed by either 'gut' or WIFOM speculation about NKs.

I am very much ok with mass claim starting with Hero.

Mod, any update on hascow? He hasn't even posted for the day

Tubby, I would like to hear some of your thoughts as you have been very quiet for most of the time since you came in.

[VP Baltar]

What? What makes you think that?

Both have actively been scum hunting with original lines of thought for the most part. I haven't seen any behavior from either that struck me as scummy, and if that is the case at this point in the game it makes me feel they are likely town.

Who do you think is scum then? IIRC all of your suspicions have flipped town.

Well you have seemed awfully suspicious since you replaced in this game. And I'm not to sure what you are getting at with the "all of your suspicions have flipped town" business. Who are you referring to? Juls, who had acted very scummy and I started the case on?

If you want to follow that line of thought, we only have to look at your predecessor being on both the PP and Empking lynch, and as far as the Juls lynch, you had her listed as one of your top suspects....so what exactly is your point? Seems to me that if we are going be revisionist and talk about people going after dead town, you are in it just as much as anybody else.

[VP Baltar]

That was more of just me talking to myself about how you don't really suspect anyone at this point

Nice misrep.

Right now, I am feeling more confident in my town reads than my scum reads, which almost guarantees to me that the scum can be found in Hero764, hasdgfas, tubby216, and Sotty7.

Out of those I would rank my top two as being you and hascow. Third is more of a toss up because I don't have much of a read on tubby (though I felt Pesco was scummy) and Sotty, who has seems somewhat town, but feels a little in the background on purpose to me.

I think is a stupid way of looking at people and implies that you might be interested in defending them

Town reads are a very effective way to parse down your pool of suspects. It has worked very successfully for me during my time playing mafia.

Also, if we are going forward with the popcorn claiming, you would need to affirmatively pick who should go next out of X or EK.

[VP Baltar]

What do you find suspicious about has and tubby?

hascow has become increasingly non-present as this game has worn on, which stinks of scum content with the mislynches taking place. He seems to pop in and take a pot shot once in awhile and then disappear.

You can look at my argument with Pesco on D1 for tubby's predecessor. Before PP's miller claim I was most definitely preferring a Pesco lynch. Tubby then replaced and said very little. I didn't go after him at that point because I preferred the Juls lynch and he was supportive of it.

Where do you think Sotty has been in the background on purpose?

Just a general aurua of hanging back at key moments. I'd need to do an iso read to bring up solid examples, as she hasn't exactly been high on my radar this game

[VP Baltar]

ok, I guess I missed hasdfgas being on V/LA. Is there somewhere saying when he'll be back? Seems as if I'm missing it.

re: hanging back--I'll put a post together this evening probably because right now it is more gut rather than something I have extensively looked into, but I definitely feel like you've been a bit behind the ball as the game has worn on. Maybe I'm wrong completely, but I don't have the same hardcore pro-town vibes I get from EK or X (after I did an iso read of him). An iso read of you is definitely necessary.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, Sotty iso read time:

D1 I think her play looks pretty solid. Actively questioning multiple targets and doesnt' appear to be opportunistically taking up on wagons. Also, I didn't remember this, but I see she was the catalyst that made me originally take a harder look at Juls. Town points here.

D2 has a bit of a dip in activity level from her in terms of number of posts (D1 18 posts, D2 9 posts), but it was a slightly shorter day and there was a post or two where you mentioned RL issues. Scum hunting looks ok, but not as broad of a net as day 1.

D3, another dip in activity and another shortened day. I'm starting to see a pattern here, but I'm not sure which is the chicken and which is the egg. I checked on you saying you had another game going on, and that checks out. Perhaps yesterday was where I am getting most of this vibe of not being present from. I can't complain too much about this day, however, because I wanted Juls lynched since D2 and didn't put in a ton of effort myself.

Conclusions:

• There is a reason Sotty was last on my list of potential scum, her actions do mostly speak with town motivation.
  
• She has had a decline in activity, though this very well could be the result of our steadily declining day length and other factors
  
• Other players (hascow and Truant that I noted), noticed the background vibe from her as well, so I don't think I'm completely crazy here.

Overall, I don't think Sotty is a good lynch choice today barring something that comes out in massclaim, but I'd like to here her thoughts on who she thinks is scummy today and why.

[VP Baltar]

hold up a second, for information purposes:

Mod, are you aware of when hasdfgas is expected back from V/LA

?

[VP Baltar]

X, do you still want tubby to claim first or hascow now that he is back?

[VP Baltar]

VPB, for future reference, the V/LA thread is your friend when needing to know when someone comes back. I was going to post in-thread, but by the time I got to it, it was closed.

Yes, I'm aware. The problem is that 1) I'm lazy and 2) I had forgotten reading you were on V/LA in the first post of the day. I should have checked myself, but since the mod had noted it, I figured she would be able to answer quickly. It is my fault for not doing the work, however.

VPB: I've been more non-present as the game has gone on? I disagree. day 1 was bad, but day 2 I was here quite a bit, and day 3 was crazy with vacation prep and there wasn't much to talk about since hero never showed up.

As with Sotty's situation, it could just be a matter of circumstances that are making it seem that way to me. Hero and tubby are definitely higher on my scumdar.

cause they are weak points and not worth the effort

This is complete BS. Sounds more like you are scum trying to plead the fifth than anything else to me.

[VP Baltar]

Could you list your reasons for suspecting Pesco? Do you think tubby is independently scummy of him?

I'm in a good mood tonight, so I'll oblige you, but you really should be able to read the thread for yourself (or having only recently read it, been able to recall).

My main reason for thinking Pesco was scum was that he attempted to play both sides of the argument that EK and I had by calling us both scummy and saying he would vote for either, basically to the point of implying we were scum together. It made no sense from a town perspective, in my opinion, to consider something like that at that point in the game. From a scum perspective, however, it makes complete sense because if one of us turned out to be a mislynch, it still left a door open for him to return and wagon the other. I could understand if one of us had flipped scum and he was making the argument of distancing, but the way he did it only looked opportunistic and scummy.

He also made a couple really BS WIFOM arguments to back his points when pressed, which looks like scum trying to find reason for a reasonless theory.

That was basically his entire existence in this game.

Tubby has basically been a non-presence in this game by my standards, and has largely just regurgitated other peoples' arguments to sluff onto popular wagons. His unwillingness to post for fear of looking scummy, and quick dismissal of points against him as "weak" and not worthy of answer all ring of lazy scum.

I'm not saying we should've left him alive, I probably would've supported a policy lynch of him. But players like him simply aren't scummy when they always play scummy. That's just how it is.

This is a whole new level of oxymoronic.

Also, what exactly is a "supersaint?"

It is a town aligned role that when lynched, kills the person that hammered it.

[VP Baltar]

I don't think so, but he probably should. Unless, of course, he's taking his time crafting a fake one. If that is the case, by all means, take your time.

[VP Baltar]

Why wouldn't you breadcrumb the song you have?

Also, who would you like to claim next?

[VP Baltar]

What do you think about image's attack on Moriarty day 1? Bullshit or no?

I think it was pretty weak.

[VP Baltar]

Well that basically solidifies my town read on EK, and should make the rest of this game a slam dunk with the pool of potential suspects so small.

I'll claim since I'm here. Rick Astley, Vanilla Townie. My Song is "Together Forever".

Hero, looking back I see you never claimed your flavor. Could you do that please.

Sotty, if you're around, you're up.

[VP Baltar]

I agree cow, you may as well go if you're around and we're waiting.

[VP Baltar]

I have some thoughts as well. *knocks on computer screen* Let's hurry with this claiming business before we waste our day away and have to rush a lynch.

[VP Baltar]

I'll give hero a bit more time, but I definitely plan on posting my thoughts today.

[VP Baltar]

How does that solidify anything?

Because if I have a town read on somebody and then they claim to be confirming people as town (one of which is me, who I

know

is town), that is a pretty good indicator that I was correct and EK is likely who she says she is. Scum do not want anyone to be confirmed town at this point in the game because it limits the pool of mislynches that are possible. Speaking of which, you seem to be doing a lot of that.

Not sure how it matters but ok. My song is "In the air tonight".

It matters because the town can evaluate the believability of the claims if necessary.

Now, moving forward with my analysis:

I believe EK because she is my strongest town read and my reason stated above. Because of that I believe Sotty is town. That changes my scum pool slightly, but nothing too much.

Going off my start of the day list, that would mean that Hero, tubby and hascow would be my most likely candidates for scum.

HOWEVER, I do believe hascow on a gut level and I take some issue with X's claim because it basically sounds like the perfect role for a scum to claim and slip by on their way to victory. Super Saint is a role that makes the town afraid to lynch them once it is known publically. The flavor of "Live and Let Die" doesn't necessarily make sense either because, at a literal level, the title means the exact opposite of his role. Sounds more like if he lives, the town would be the ones dying.

One thing I found ironic about his claim was that if he was really a Super Saint, then why didn't he use this post as a chance to breadcrumb? There are not saints in Judaism as far as I know. Why not say you are Catholic or something in that post? I don't think you could ask for a more perfect breadcrumbing opportunity.

From my point of view, I think it would be best to lynch X with a hero (preferably) or tubby hammer. If X is lying, he's dead scum. If X is who he says he is, we are still highly likely to hit scum from the supersaint fallout.

I also have some comments on X's claim that will wait until the end of MC.

If you have some information to share now that is relevant, go ahead.

[VP Baltar]

1) You aren't confirmed town until she is confirmed hider. She hasn't effectively confirmed anything.

Ok, let me rephrase it because I don't think I was clear. I'm not saying she or Sotty or I should be considered confirmed from the rest of the town's perspective, but from my perspective she has a very high likelihood of being town. Basically put yourself in my shoes, if someone claimed you were town based on the information they received from their role, and you knew you were town, that person would have a higher likelihood of being town to you, no? I don't see any motivation for scum at this point in the game to be helping to partially clear people and limit who they could have for potential mislynches. Does the potential for EK to be scum still exist? Yes, of course, but it doesn't seem likely to me, so I am comfortable calling her town.


What I was saying with that last sentence is that you seem to be fighting me a bit today when I suggest that I think someone is town. You're quick to pop in and go 'well, hey, not necessarily'. You could simply be cautious town (though your quick casting of a vote today doesn't indicate that), but you could also be scum who, like I said, is trying to keep his options wide open.

[VP Baltar]

Those two mafia would have to be souped up a lot to have a fair balance.

I don't believe so. That town powerrole list doesn't look all that strong to me, honestly. Hider and Supersaint are both really swingy roles that can end up benefiting scum as much as they do town. Particularly if EK is telling the truth and she dies when hiding with scum. So, you basically have JK (which could hurt town by limiting abilities) and a tracker. Neither of these roles are confirmable to town and would leave their players still open to suspicion upon claim.

I agree that the scum team probably have power roles to help balance, but two scum is certainly not out of the equation, and in fact seems likely given Shanba's recent numbers on the amount scum wins. .

Yes, if you are who you say you are and there are three scum, then there is a possibility we would lose by lynching you, but I'm more inclined to believe a two person scum team at this point. Killing you (if you flip scum) could result in a NK tonight if hascow is who he says he is and blocks properly. That would almost guarantee a win for town tomorrow.

[VP Baltar]

EBWOP: could result in

no

NK

[VP Baltar]

That post made no sense EK. Why are you certain there are three scum? Why do you think X is supersaint if he's scum?

[VP Baltar]

I'll

Vote: X

now, but please don't hammer until we get closer to deadline.

[VP Baltar]

Dearest EK,

That post made no sense EK. Why are you certain there are three scum? Why do you think X is supersaint if he's scum?

Yours in puppy love,

Baltar

[VP Baltar]

Why are you ignoring my questions, EK?

[VP Baltar]

Since there's three scum, which means that 3 of these four are scum:

X
Hero
tubby
cow

Since X is supersaint, we should have Hero hammer so that he takes Hero with him and gives us 2 for 1.

In the above statement you state with certainty that there are three scum. Why are you certain there are three instead of two?

In the above statement you state with certainty that X is actually a supersaint and that he is scum. Why do you say that considering that supersaint is a townaligned role?

I hope that is clear.

[VP Baltar]

I've changed my mind. Tubby, I want you to hammer X.

[VP Baltar]

Tubby's reaction to the cult thing. I don't think it's that an wild idea, and it could be what we have been dealing with from the start now that I think about it. I don't see why a townie would dismiss it immediately considering it is stated as a possibility in the rules.

[VP Baltar]

I say we should put X at L-1 and let tubby do the hammer since he's willing.

[VP Baltar]

I don't think EK should be lynched today. She is likely town. EK, please vote for X so we can move ahead with the plan.

However, if you have relevant information, please share it.

[VP Baltar]

And e_k, VPB: You mentioned tubby dismissing the possibility of a cult? I don't see where he did this.

He said this after EK brought up the cult thing again:

however ek is shortcircuting or something,(ek you seriously need a margarita and beach for two days)

That implied to me that he didn't believe her theory. If it was in reference to something else, then I may be mistaken.

Regardless, tubby, go ahead and throw that hammer any time.

[VP Baltar]

YAY!....Give me a minute to read up and I'll post some thoughts.

[VP Baltar]

First, poor Moriarty. First he is killed and then has his corpse violated by a pack of Zombies.

Second, thank you Vi for putting so much effort into the flavor for this game. I really enjoyed reading every bit of it (and also laughing a good bit of the time).

I'm curious as to why the Michael Jackson cult had one night of untargetability.

Got it now.

And that's how the Cult Mentor came about. How do you like it?

I actually thought it was a pretty novel idea and was actually balanced. Imagine that cult and balance together at last. It kept me on my toes too because while I was pretty certain (at times) that there was another scum group, I never would have guessed a second cult. Good job.

hascow's failure to block Sotty7's recruitment N1 was borderline mod error, for which I apologize. I hope the reason it went through is clear, if legalistic.

That most certainly would have thrown a wrench in my plans. I can understand if cow feels a bit angry at that one. Had you considered that in the setup when you were writing it, Vi?

Did I mention I hate you VP?

heh. But I <3 you! Seriously though, you have very good instincts Juls, it is just a matter of execution. It didn't help you either that the opposite cult was thinking about your mislynch at the same time. This is twice now you have nailed me as scum, I just happened to come out on top this time. However, be expecting a NK if we ever meet under these circumstances again! I imagine you won't be letting me get away next time.

What sucks is you guys, by the end, had me convinced I was stupid and that was what sucked so bad for me. I hate feeling stupid.

I'm sorry. Seriously. I just play to win any way I can (short of searching for modkills on text color). I hope there's no hard feelings.

Ok, caught up. On to reading MJ's QT.

Oh, and Sotty deserves major props for this win. I don't think I could have picked a better scum partner. We worked together well to work out our plans.

[VP Baltar]

Don't be too hard on yourself, EK, since he did ask you for help in a claim. I agree with what Sotty said above (again). The claim did seal it for X, but that was mostly because it was an opportunity for us to get him lynched. We had obviously wanted him dead earlier (hence the failed NK attempt). You were definitely acting weird when you were trying to draw the lynch, but I think it would have taken a heck of a lot to sway me off of X. Plus, I had been calling you town most of the game and it would have looked suspicious.

The QTs are hilarious side-by-side.

Vi, are you keeping the deadline mechanics of your next game secret for now? I'm curious how you will force the same pace without the discussion dependant deadlines.