Mini 809 ~ Mafia ViPod (Game Over!)

[X]

8)

Twilight

: Anyone who sparkles during the day is not protected from the jeering that may result from it.

I like this rule.

/confirm

[X]

1. Atticus.Finch
5. hasdgfas
7. Lindisfarne
9. PaperPenguin

Foul on the play, delay of game.

Hey, you stole my joke.

[X]

Confirm.

---image replaces Atticus.Finch, and Pesco47 replaces Lindisfarne. Worship them according to your personal beliefs.

Smite:

Vote: X

for being insufficiently worshipful.

I'm plenty worshipful. I'm Jewish.

This is definetly not a confirmation post.

Vote: Moriartry

for !confirming.

[X]

On the topic of slow activity, however, I would move that the scum would be going especially out of their way to lurk in this game since it would actually have an effect upon the deadline. To that end, I move that lurking not be tolerated in the slightest for this game.

To that end,

Unvote, Vote hasdgfas

Claimed he could not find the thread initially and then he implied that he has a night action.

Any game without a fixed deadline should fit under this. So I better tell you that I'm graduating tonight, and parties and sleep will take up the weekend, so

V/LA until Monday

. But I don't think there is really an implication of a night action. Plus, this speculation on night action is rolefishing, and even if Cow has a night action, it doesn't point toward him being pro-town.

image, Empking, FL, pesco, PP, thoughts? The game has begun.

[X]

I certainly believe hasd's explanation of why he asked those questions; I don't think it points one way or another to him being a power role. If you want to get really WIFOM'y, you could argue that it points towards him being vanilla, as if he were a PR, he would have asked the question privately to avoid attracting attention. (Alliteration!)

I really think it's not getting us anywhere to be guessing about Cow's role.

VP Baltar bringing up the question as an implication of a night action was, in my opinion, overall a good thing for the town. Scum almost certainly noticed it, and by bringing it up, VP B has given hasd an opportunity to assert that it was in no way a claim of a night action and that it should not be considered as such. If he in fact is a power role, this has given him an opportunity to cover up a possible mistake. (I mean, really. What was he going to say? "Yes, I admit it, I'm the cop-doc-mason-recruiting-vigilante!")

Yay tons of WIFOM. I don't like this paragraph.

I'm sorry if you aren't aware, but I work the shittiest job in the world and only get online in the mornings and evenings.

I'm not aware. But that seems pretty often to me. No matter.

First of all, you are utterly wrong that every vote shows lynching intent. But that is apprantly how you feel your votes should be weighed. So, we look at your vote. You want me dead and think I'm scum. Here is the important part: You simultaneously FoS EK, meaning you must think she is scum as well and would like her dead after I'm gone. This is all based on your premise that votes show lynching intent (and by extension somewhat, FoS's).

I find it a bit ridiculous that you think both EK and I could be scum.

I agree that votes do not always show lynching intent.

I also doubt that Pesco thinks that FoSes also show lynching intent. So I agree with your first part, but when you start talking about thinking both EK and VPB are scum, it's misrepresentation.

Never mind. Just read this:

If I don't have 2 votes to throw around, I make do with a FoS. In my mind, I've already lined them up as my lynch preferences.

Who knows Empking's meta?

Yes, there is such a thing as bussing and it is possible that we are both scum, however, most scum partners would not begin bussing their partners on page two, argue for two full pages (with hardly anyone else interjecting) and sit by while their partner went to L-1. It could happen, sure, but it's not bloody likely.

WIFOM. And because

you

are the one bringing it up, and now

you

have stated that you think EK is town, that makes it more likely.

PP, I really don't like your triple post. It's vague and an old argument that VP Baltar made a while back. This question is extremely loaded, and I can't see it coming from a pro-town player:

What I want to know is: why would you orchestrate something like this?

Unvote: Moriarty147

,

Vote: PaperPenguin

.

1.) Trying to place yourself in the mafia's shoes is what every townie should aspire to do. Trying to look as town as possible though, is bordering on the mafia mindset. If I was mafia then that would be what I would do; I find it strange that you would look at even trying to predict mafia actions as scummy. Bad logic indeed, image.

So looking town is scummy, and looking scummy is town? Wow.

- Having a death miller lynched would contaminate the town's information. It's so much better for them to go at night.

It'll still contaminate the town's information. They'll think there is an extra Vig or SK or who knows what.

That doesn't mean you can get away with not giving reasons.

Pot...kettle...black...

Are you really a psycholinguist? Because your read is basically the opposite of what I actually thought, and I'm pretty sure it's obvious from what I wrote.

QFT.

[X]

@Pesco: Do you think it likely that elvis and VP Baltar are scum together? Or merely that at least one of them is scum? Why do you find VP Baltar more likely scum than elvis?

I see a small chance of them both being scum, very likely for one to be at least.

Actually, I sort of agree with this, although I find it unlikely for EK to be scum without VP Baltar. But with your conclusion, why do you want to lynch one and then the other? Isn't there a much better chance that they are scum with others?

Why would I vote pesco? People still haven't really given me a good reason.

Well, my best reason would be if he thinks two people are both scum when it is extremely unlikely for them both to be scum. And/or ignoring other players.

Presenting a likely guess on what the scum would do isn't always scummy.

Okay, I can see that. But saying an absolute from a mafia perspective such as, "You have gained the attention of the mafia, and have set yourself for a kill," is a scumtell.

Empking wrote:
That doesn't mean you can get away with not giving reasons.
Pot...kettle...black...

Err... charcoal calling the pot who is calling the....

So you're saying I'm not giving reasons? Did you read my entire post? Would you like me to clarify anything?

[X]

Sotty, that alone is a bad vote. Elaborate.

[X]

Well, my best reason would be if he thinks two people are both scum when it is extremely unlikely for them both to be scum. And/or ignoring other players.

Why is it so unlikely for them both to be scum? no one has adequetly explained it. The fact that both of them got up in arms about the suggestion did not rather reassure me.

Because they're attacking each other. It doesn't rule out the possibility, and I have the same opinion as your second sentence.

I see a small chance of them both being scum, very likely for one to be at least. VPB's approach has been textbook-scummy (flinging whatever sticks to cow and rolefish), while e_k's been a more intuitive one to me.

And, at this point we get a bit of backtracking. I thought you saw FoS' as intent to lynch. So, while there is a small chance they both are scum, you'd be willing to lynch both? I was under the impression you saw them both as scum. e_k slightly less than VP

Pesco, please respond to this.

Actually, I sort of agree with this, although I find it unlikely for EK to be scum without VP Baltar. But with your conclusion, why do you want to lynch one and then the other? Isn't there a much better chance that they are scum with others?

Two players alone wouldn't make a scumteam if we were to go by standard distributions. But these two players are where we're going to find links.

Are you suspicious of anyone else?

One Voice...
Singing in the darkness...
All it takes is One Voice...
Singing so they hear what's on your mind,
And when you look around you'll find there's more than
One Voice...

Love that song. My chorus does an arrangement where it starts with a solo, then becomes a quartet, then half of the chorus joins, then the full chorus. It's pretty awesome.

PP, have you been reading my posts?

[X]

--We are seven days into this Day. Activity on average

meets

my (high) standard!

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(50%)

Um, so should we expect 2-week Days?

Rule 27, go-- ~Vi

Not sure if pesco is still the most scummy at the moment. Hascow and PP both need a re-investigation. Will post again when I've had some actual sleep.

"...But until then I'll just leave my vote on Pesco in case someone decides to hammer and I get to help a mislynch while distancing myself from the wagon a bit."

QFT.

Empking, are you even in this game?

Have you said anything all day?

Yes & Yes.

You?

Did zwets still Empking's password? Are you post restricted?

Role fishing?

Bad call. Point of Order. It's only rolefishing if you're looking for Power Roles. Post Restrictions have no correlation with Power Roles. Talking about the rules (on X). End Point of Order.

One, looking at Vi's vote count Pesco was at lynch -2 so that would have to be a couple of quick votes.

And two, how do you know it will be a mislynch?

It was a hypothetical. Moriatory could be scummy for this, assuming that Pesco is Town (which was what Moriatory was guessing).

[X]

I just read through the last few pages, and this is my quick reaction - will read through game again and post more:

PaperPenguin, there are two ways that I've seen to play Miller: claim in your first post and proceed as Vanilla or draw the NK. You have done neither, and considering that what you have done so far is scummy, I highly doubt that my vote will change Today.

I don't see what everyone's problem is with me responding to an attack on someone else. I thought the attack was ridiculous and that I was saying something obvious.

Empking is really not helping in terms of discussion.

My biggest problem with my top three suspects (PP, VP Baltar, and Empking) is that they're definitely not supporting each other.

[X]

VP Baltar bringing up the question as an implication of a night action was, in my opinion, overall a good thing for the town. Scum almost certainly noticed it, and by bringing it up, VP B has given hasd an opportunity to assert that it was in no way a claim of a night action and that it should not be considered as such. If he in fact is a power role, this has given him an opportunity to cover up a possible mistake. (I mean, really. What was he going to say? "Yes, I admit it, I'm the cop-doc-mason-recruiting-vigilante!")

This doesn't really make sense to me.

I would have waited until tomorrow before suggesting that hasd is actively baiting a nightkill, something useful might happen if the scum try to reach for the lowest hanging fruit.

VP Baltar and Pesco asked for explanation, and it never showed up. PP?

I still don't think Pesco is scummy for thinking that VP Baltar and EK can be scum together. FL shouldn't have voted Empking that early, considering how Empking usually is. PP's posts 114 and 116 are pretty useless and scummy. I'd like Cow to give a detailed analysis...I really can't tell where he stands on things.

Another point I think that may be valid against PP is that he seems to know a fair amount of things about this game despite his really recent join date. This could be the result of a N0 talk with scumbuddies. Then again, it could be the result of research (but IMO, he doesn't look like a research kind of guy). Also odd is this post:

Sorry for chaining posts.

Vote: image

It might be omgus, but I wouldn't know. My reasons are at top ---^

Why would he know about OMGUS, but not understand OMGUS?

Oh, this is also worth mentioning. The question that I answered for image was about something I QFTed. I think I missed this before, and it's probably worth responding to:

If you meant moriarty, you're putting words in his mouth even more. Just because he said he wasn't SURE that pesco was still the most scummy, that IN NO WAY means that moriarty thought pesco is town.

I never said that Moriatory thought Pesco was town. More like Moriatory thought Pesco was neutral, yet he kept his vote on Pesco.

Moriatory has clarified his side of this since then, in post 208.

[X]

PaperPenguin, there are two ways that I've seen to play Miller: claim in your first post and proceed as Vanilla or draw the NK. You have done neither, and considering that what you have done so far is scummy, I highly doubt that my vote will change Today.

Your great authority on miller play is meaningless to me right now, maybe next game, but really. If your vote rests purely on a logical error, heck it might not even be an error (this is largely debatable), rather than an error of intetion, then you really should dig a bit more before hopping on the bandwagon.

1. I have played Miller before, did research, and found good ways to play it.
2. While there's a chance that the error is due to not thinking while playing, there's also a good chance that it's due to being scum.
3. I was the second person on the bandwagon, and I would have been the first if I had posted between post 116 and 125. So I think you can hardly say that I just jumped on the bandwagon. Read my ISO posts, and then try and tell me that the Miller claim was my only justification for thinking you're scum.

I seem to recall Vi saying the music was from the 70's and 80's. Backstreet Boys were in diapers. I also don't see Vi as a Backstreet Boys kinda gal unless she just wanted all scum to be hideous.

I don't remember Vi saying that, but I personally wouldn't make the Backstreet Boys town.

Oh, there's the Hammer!

[X]

Okay, sorry for the delay. I was actually V/LA from the 1st to the 4th, and told Vi during Night. Sorry for not posting yesterday.

Empking is continuing to perform (get it...perform?) horribly. I'm sort of surprised that FL didn't have other suspicions at the start of the Day, but Empking is a very understandable one.

Side Note: Empking not dying N1 means that either Empking is NK immune or that there is no Vig. If there is another alternative, I am oblivious to it.

Disclaimer: Please, no one claim because of this. Post 279 is really bad.

I'd like to think you want us to vote for people you think are scum.

Non-sequitor much?

Actually, Empking's right. He only wants that if he's town. If he's scum, he wants you to vote for people who he

says

he thinks are scum.

EWanting people to do something and encouraging people to do something aren't even similar.

Yes, yes they are. You don't encourage people to do what you don't want them to do. And if you want someone to do something but you don't encourage them, then you're lazy.

X, do you think there was scum on the PP lynch? If so, who?

Likely. There usually are scum on town lynches, but it doesn't really become a good method of finding scum until 3 or 5 people's roles have been revealed. Right now I am thinking that Empking is scum, who was on the lynch, but there might be others. I think I might want to re-read Sotty sometime soon.

Vote: Empking.

[X]

Can we hold the phone a bit on empking. Vi stated in her rules there may be Jesters and Empking seems to be trying very hard to get lynched.

Together with her early vote & joke daykill for Empking and later unvote/FoS, this looks like classic mafia partnership.

Further, if you are trying to claim I am his scumbuddy don't you think I went at him a little hard on D1?

To some extent, WIFOM. And if I was Empking's partner, I personally would probably bus him hard, as he has such a lynchable playstyle.

I think it is a bit interesting how you are suddenly getting cold feet about Emp now that his wagon is actually gaining steam.

QFT.

Cow, you're present, but not helping either. Except for that most recent part about image. I don't agree with sarcasm being a tell (and I know that your argument is more sophisticated than that), but the indecisiveness over Empking is noteworthy.

you're missing my point. I know there could be a Jester. I don't care. I want people who are scummy to be dead. Who cares if that means they "win"?

Play to win the game.

I highly doubt that there is a Jester.

Why are people voting Juls instead of Empking? As far as I see, all of the reasons for Juls to be scum amount to buddying with Empking. And if we're wrong about them being buddies together, I'd prefer to remove Empking from the game than Juls.

[X]

I am playing to win. I just don't care if a third party wins also.

Usually a Jester win ends the game in a Mini game.

Mod, would a Jester being lynched end the game?

That depends on what the Role PM says, doesn't it?
Your best bet is to trust that I'm reasonably competent at designing setups (until proven otherwise). ~Vi

Wow. What are your exact reasons for voting emp? “Because everyone else wants to” doesn't work for me at all. What happened to the "other options"?

My reasons for voting Empking is that he has not been contributing and has been jumping on wagons with little to no reason. I personally see his actions as someone who WANTS to get lynched. And while I don't particularly like the idea of sharing a victory with a third party I get that others don't share this opinion. I admittedly have zero experience playing with Jesters so the acceptable strategies for dealing with them are foreign to me.

See above RE: Jesters. Will wait for the answer to the last question.

VP Baltar, let me rephrase my question. How is Juls' stance toward Empking scummy if Empking is town? I'd like Sotty & image to answer this question as well.

In any order, due to math conference, I am going to be

V/LA until Saturday evening

. Much apology, sorry.

Yay Math!!!

[X]

I have never seen a well-made game end if a Jester wins. That's punishing good town play.

Well, in my first Mini game, I mentioned the possibility of a Jester, and everyone told me that a Jester would end the game (and IIRC, ridiculed me for not knowing that).

@Empking: The point you quoted was that both had lurked to the point of being prodded when pressure on them was high. How does this apply more to PP than Pesco? How is it more scummy on PP's part?

I think the fact that I noticed it made it more scummy when coming from a poor player.

I can not understand this sentence of yours, Empking. Rephrase, please.

I understand the Juls wagon better now. My case against Empking is mostly that he has contributed little, if anything, and most of his votes have been fit-in votes with parroted reasoning (or downright incomprehensible reasoning). Juls' attitude toward him was a bonus toward them being scum together.

Empking, do you have a reason for voting juls or are you just voting her in hopes of saving yourself?

I think the way she's playing she's trying to protect herself while on a town bandwagon.

Sounds like what you're doing too.

Wrong. Empking isn't really trying to protect himself.

I don't know juls is town. I am actually suspicious of her too. But I think your vote for her is just because she's the other leading wagon, and you're trying to protect yourself. You voted her but only gave reasons after I asked

That's nothing like the reasoning I gave for voting Juls.

Hm, perhaps the reasoning you gave isn't your actual reasoning? Seriously, explain yourself better (like, in multiple coherent sentences), or expect to remain a mystery, and thus, suspicious.

[X]

oh, so voting for the next highest bandwagon isn't trying to protect himself?

I was more referring to the depth of his answers. And I guess it might not have been obvious, but I meant it as "No, it's worse than that..."

[X]

Major FoS: tubby216

. Much more important than town reads are scum reads. Post those, please. I'm irked that I even have to say that. And in case it's not obvious, rationale would be good, too.

[X]

I've played with tubby before. I consider him a gut player, and not a bad one at that. I agree that he should give more content/reasoning, but the above post doesn't worry me. It's normal for him. And I don't really think that he would come in and pronounce a bunch of people town if he was scum.

I don't get your last sentence.

tubby, you seriously don't have any other reads after 15 pages that you haven't been around for?

[X]

I have been in very few games where the mod explicitly states there may be a Jester in the game. Therefore I am keeping it in the back of my head. That said, I have never been in a game where there actually was a jester. So when people are telling me it is ok to lynch a jester and nobody seems to have a problem with this, I will defer to the general opinion until I get more experience with it. Same with playing Miller. I have been miller twice now and I now feel confident I could play it better if I received the role again. If Empking does turn out to be Jester (or anyone does) in this game I will take a lessons learned out of this to ignore Jesters in general and if I suspect someone is then just lynch them. I still don't agree with it but why stick my neck out there and have people think I am scum because I like my team to be the sole-winner. That will just distract us from winning because attention will be on me. So that was my thought process and why I went back to voting Empking.

Okay, I think I believe this.

FL shouldn't have voted Empking that early, considering how Empking usually is.

This whole arguement that X and ek (and possibly others?) are trying to put out that Empking is always scummy therefore he should be ignored is ridiculous. I think FL said it and I agree that even people who are generally scummy players roll scum sometimes and Empking seems to be worse than usual this game.

Um, the key word in my quote was "early." He definitely shouldn't be ignored now that he's been consistently unhelpful.

I particularly don't like how VP plays the innocent victim in post 87. Of course you forced people to talk about it the minute you voted has.

This is very true.

Once again, you appear to be trying to have it both ways simultaneously.

This is a misrepresentation of what Pesco was saying. I read what Pesco was saying as there are things that could change his opinion during night but that if we lynch one of you and you flip scum we have a lot to go on by ways of finding links; not necessarily that you two are linked because of it. I realize I said something different on my first read through but I will fully admit that my vote on Pesco was me playing lazy. I had a lot going on during that time. I had my anniversary weekend followed by getting ready for and going on vacation. If I get lynched because of that I will have to accept that but I would rather this be seen as how I felt when paying attention in the event of my untimely death.

I have to agree with VPB here. While I didn't think he wanted to lynch both of them at first, he later said that his FoS was an intent to lynch. And Juls, the second half of your paragraph is very wishy-washy.

If you start a sentence with "So you are saying..." it feels like you are setting them up and putting words in their mouth.

Not if you end with a question mark and give them a chance to respond.

However, I can't really see you taking a hard stance on lurking after this.

Really? I've been asking people to post when I feel they have been lagging. I don't know what else I can do unless they give me their addresses and I can literally force them to type a post.

As far as I know, a hard stance on lurking is that you will vote for someone you think hasn't been posting enough.

[X]

Empking, please post as yourself, not as your Alt. And please post content. Such as, what do you think of Juls? Me? Moriarty147?

I'm not getting anything out of the the Juls v. VPB argument.

So you are saying that our troops who fight for our freedom and make the world a better place are murders?

Well, yes, but a better term for them would be Mason Vigilantes.

"Vigilantes" would depend on what kind of justice you think the US dispenses to the rest of the world. ~Vi

The amount of votes VP got in the RVS combined with e_k's comment about how "Apparently your buddies are reluctant to buss you, VP." (every time someone has made a comment about buddies not bussing someone in D1 so far it has turned out that they were scumbuddies with that person, which is worrying in this case, especially considering the VPB/e_k argument D1) makes me a bit nervous.

So you think that VPB and EK are scum together?

From post 306,

Side Note: Empking not dying N1 means that either Empking is NK immune or that there is no Vig. If there is another alternative, I am oblivious to it.

Buh? What about the third possibility, that Empking simply wasn't the NK target? If I was scum he certainly wouldn't be on my priority list for NKs given how he's a free lynch. Or the fourth one, that Empking himself is scum. No matter how many times I read this sentence, it seems very horribly weird and I can't seem to explain it away as either something Town would say or something Scum would say.

You do realize what a Vig is?

Fixed. ~Vi

Wrong. Empking isn't really trying to protect himself.

Buh? What? What the heck do you mean by this? Empking seems to be quite adamant at least by what he says that he's Town and does not want to be lynched because then you'd be lynching a Town player.

Read the thread, please.

Also, X, are you a math major as well?

Technically, no. I have another month and a half before I enter college. But I will be.

[X]

Mod, could you be a wonderful revisionist mod and fix my broken hyperlink tag?

Done. BTW, use the wiki tags next time; it's easier. ~Vi

[X]

Truant, I think that you need to explain yourself better.

FYI, no need dragging it out to L-1. I am a Vanilla Townie, the Police. My flavor is De Do Do Do De Da Da Da. I made a last ditch effort to get the night kill to prevent another mislynch by claiming I might get night information in my last post of yesterday. It was a weak attempt but an attempt nontheless.

I think this is really a poor defense. And the vote on VPB does look like extended OMGUS. VPB, Juls' question about your reaction to her flipping VT is a legitimate question. I think you should answer it.

claiming with no reason at all

No, I think Juls' choice to claim was very understandable.

Juls, I think you've been very single-minded over the course of the game...mostly concentrating on Empking, VPB, and your tubby and PP votes were largely unexplained. The PP vote was somewhat explained, but only by a post a day earlier saying that he would drop the hammer. I read over the VPB and Juls argument overNight, and thought that VPB made more sense, and was being accused of misrepresentation when he actually wasn't.

Juls, what do you think of Truant, Cow, and Sotty?
VPB, what do you think of tubby?

[X]

claiming with no reason at all

No, I think Juls' choice to claim was very understandable.

it's a cop out. At least try to defend yourself instead of claiming.

That's different, and makes more sense.

Happy scumday, X!

Thanks! Hard to believe that I've been at this for a year.

i would like to vote for juls because its easy. but because its easy it gives me pause. so i will re-read and post thoughts soonest

You didn't take the time to re-read overNight? I don't like this post, especially coupled with the >1 day wait.

Sorry guys, I haven't been reading as much as I would like. I'll try to be caught up this evening.

This, on the other hand, is understandable. Really want to hear from both of you, though. And EK. She hasn't been posting much recently.

Juls has not impressed as of yet, when we lynch empking and if he flips scum I will be taking a hard look at juls and then you all might be graced with the rare oppurtunity to read an acutall case brought forth by me

This was Yesterday. You still are highly suspicious of Juls Today. Please explain. Even better would be if you throw in an actual case (on anyone).

Juls' last post gave me a vibe that she was innocent - maybe just a well-crafted scum post, but innocent-looking nonetheless. I think it's the diction. So I looked back through her ISO. Until the VPB argument she was very wishy-washy, staying on a few players and switching them every so often. Perhaps trying to see which one stuck. Until the argument with VPB. In that argument, I think she's been misrepresenting VPB. One statement in her most recent post baffles me:

I actually somewhat want to get lynched at this point so that town can get over me and move on to who is really scum.

I'm not quite sure what to think, but the sense of utter innocence has been mollified.

[X]

tubby, I really appreciate you posting your analysis. Although to you that might have been nothing, I thought it was actually helpful for you to make that clear.

I think we're just waiting at this point for Hero, no?

[X]

My other suspicions are with you, Sotty, forbiddan/hero (mostly due to forbiddan), and then depending on Juls, tubby.

Mostly

due to FL? Did Hero do something scummy? Or anything, for that matter?

tubby seems like a quiet kind of guy, and I'd appreciate if he spoke more. But barring that, I don't think he's been particularly scummy. Saying that the Police are high profile and therefore more likely scum is barely more likely to be said by a mafia member (if high profile people are mafia) than a townie (whether or not high profile people are mafia).

image was being exceedingly wishy-washy over Empking, similar to Juls. Truant is pushing tubby for a really weak reason. I'd like to hear his opinion on VPB.
I was going to say that EK hasn't been posting enough, but then he made his PBPA. I don't know why he's still harping on my QFT of image D1.
FL I had a town read on, and am really disappointed that she left. Hero has posted nothing but an unexplained suspicion of 3 people (including myself), so I'd like him to explain himself soon.
Ooh, in Cow's ISO, just came across this:

Well, technically, everyone could be scum, but where did I say that I thought she was?

This was referring to Sotty, but that's not the point. "Everyone could be scum" from Cow's perspective means that Cow is scum. This definitely is an accident, but it would certainly be more likely to come from scum than town. Cow has not said much, but did have that good catch about image.
Sotty's looking good.
VPB, there's the old stuff about pointing out Cow's "softclaim," but that's not much. I agree with his take in ISO 54 that a lot of people haven't been adding much. He has been spearheading the Juls argument, which is good if Juls turns up scum, but even if she doesn't, I can still believe that he could be town.

For some reason I have no read either way on X, and this is a bit worrisome to me this far in the game. I need to reread you in iso.

I feel unloved.

[X]

That's a reach X.

I'm aware, and Cow has an explanation for it, but it is something, however small.

if you are afriad to hammer i will gladly unvote then revote to hammer if thats the hang up.

No, it's that Hero has made 1 sentence of content so far.

Anyway, a few days ago, I got a really great opportunity for a mostly-paid vacation, so I'm gonna be

V/LA through August 2nd

. There's a good chance that I'll be on later today or in the afternoon on the 2nd, but I can't promise anything. Ciao!

[X]

Yeah, it is a little annoying that 10 days after replacing in, Hero hasn't caught up. Last time I was in a game with him, he was a replacement and it took him 3 days to catch up. He had 13 pages at that point to read instead of 21, but it's out of whack proportionally.

[X]

Hello. I'm back. Vacation was überfun. I was surprised to find that there wasn't much to catch up on. Basically, Hero didn't post and Juls self-hammered as town.

Just want to mention that there's a good chance we're in LYLO, so be careful with your votes. I really want Hero to post before I say any more.

[X]

First of all, I can't really explain it but his general existence in this game is giving me bad vibes. Like if I had been reading an already finished game and read the first post of the thread and knew who was scum, that person posts would stick out especially to me as being scummy, simply because I knew they were scum. This game isn't finished and obviously I can't know for sure of X's alignment, but his posts have given me those kinds of vibes.

Perhaps you're thinking of our last game together?

Paperpenguin:

Another point I think that may be valid against PP is that he seems to know a fair amount of things about this game despite his really recent join date. This could be the result of a N0 talk with scumbuddies. Then again, it could be the result of research (but IMO, he doesn't look like a research kind of guy). Also odd is this post:

Ok, first off, what the hell could you be basing the 'research kind of guy' look off of? This statement is full of bs. He's trying to further justify his vote so that when PP flips town people can't go 'X voted for no reason!'

He doesn't really provide much solid reasoning for the PP vote, its all pretty ambiguous. I'm getting very bad vibes from his place on the PP lynch.

This is a strawman, and a bad one at that. He did not look like a research kind of guy from the offhandedness of most of his posts. He was just playing in the moment. Second, this was not my only comment against PP that explained my vote. Look at ISO 4-11.

It gets better with Empking:

First he implies several times that he knows Empkings meta and even uses it as an attack on someone for voting Empking:

FL shouldn't have voted Empking that early, considering how Empking usually is

But then he goes on and votes Empking for...being Empking?

Likely. There usually are scum on town lynches, but it doesn't really become a good method of finding scum until 3 or 5 people's roles have been revealed. Right now I am thinking that Empking is scum, who was on the lynch, but there might be others. I think I might want to re-read Sotty sometime soon.

Vote: Empking

.

=/

This is twice now that he's pushed easy lynches without actually providing solid reasoning(some of it even hypocritical). This is more than enough to warrant

vote: X

First, I had an idea of what Empking's meta was (from references in MD), but I asked early on, before I made that comment. The answer that I got supported the idea that I had. Next, the key word in the first quote is "early." At that point, it was difficult to tell whether he was playing as his regular self or worse. Later in the game, he was much more scummy. And again, you cherry-pick your evidence. My second quote obviously doesn't explain my vote. Look at the rest of that post. Of course, there were some scummier things that he had done earlier in the day that FL, EK, and VPB all had pointed out before me. Hero, before you read through the game, did you look at Empking flipping town? Is it possible that that gave you some sort of bias that prevented you from seeing how scummy Empking actually was? He was

really

scummy.

Lastly, there's a good chance it's LYLO. Don't vote so quickly.

FoS: Hero764

.

[X]

This is a strawman, and a bad one at that. He did not look like a research kind of guy from the offhandedness of most of his posts. He was just playing in the moment. Second, this was not my only comment against PP that explained my vote. Look at ISO 4-11.

Is there a 'good' kind of strawman? =P

Haha...I guess the word that I was looking for was "obvious."

I really don't see how offhandedness and wanting to do research have anything to do with each other. You can do research about the game and still play in the moment.

It's a matter of time that he was putting into the game. He wasn't doing ISO re-reads or checking up on people's meta - he was clearly reacting to the new things that had been posted. I'm trying to be clear. But I'm not quite sure how this matters...back to the topic:

My points on PP were:
1. Parroting what VPB had said earlier and almost trying to pass it off as a new argument (114-5)
2. Asking a loaded question (116)
3. Speaking from the mafia mentality, "You have gained the attention of the mafia, and have set yourself for a kill." (114)
4. A roleclaim that did not match his actions; also that the claim is a convenient scum claim (221)
5. Having knowledge beyond what people with his join date usually have, because it could have been supplied by buddies

You got #2 and #5, and sort of got #4, although your phrasing could be taken the wrong way.

Fact is, you were saying to someone else not to vote Empking because he's always like this(correct), but then you vote Empking for acting scummy. You've already acknowledged that he's

always

scummy though, so why vote? Don't go yelling 'policy lynch' because your reasons for voting for him were that he was scummy, not a bad player. I knew Empking had flipped town, yeah, but I knew before I even joined the game that Empking always played scummy, and that it was stupid to vote him for that.

And what changed from day 1 to day 2? Empking was acting the same as always to me.

There's a certain amount of scumminess with Empking is gratuitous. I was somewhat aware of this, and therefore reluctant to lynch him early on. D1 he just did nothing, and asked some stupid questions. D2 he looked like he was floundering for a case to grab on to, so that he wouldn't have to go under. It didn't look like he had built actual suspicions, but was just flailing. I assumed that Empking could at least get actual suspicions. And of course, there was the whole interaction on page 12 where EK was one of his two suspects, but didn't want people to vote for her. That set off my scumdar like mad.

Not sure what you mean about 'a good chance its lylo'? If you're referring to how there's probably 3 scum then I'm not really scared of a quicklynch. It would be a huge coincidence for all three to be on at the same time(I don't think I've ever seen a quick 3 scum bandwagon). The FoS is suspect though. What was scummy about my vote?

I guess you didn't quite read to the end of Mini 765. Scum (Kreriov, Sajin, and I) quicklynched SerialClergyman with the help of billsabersyanks. 7 people alive, 3 scum.

After reading this I thought your vote was on Pesco X, but it wasn't, it was on PP. Why did you feel the need to answer this question about the Pesco wagon? To me, it's clear that forb is asking the people who are voting for pesco to bring a better case. This was a strange comment.

Did you find pesco suspicious at this point X?

IIRC, I was slightly supsicious of Pesco for the aforementioned reasons. I was putting in my two cents, and I was pretty sure it wouldn't stop anyone with a better case from saying, "No, the case is really that..."

X, you were in Mini765 with Hero, did a mass claim take place there at all?

Interestingly enough, no. We (scum) prepared a lot for massclaim, but it didn't come up.

[X]

1. I don't see where you've mentioned this before now.

I mentioned it in passing, so I can see how you might have missed it. It's the first two sentences of this quote:

PP, I really don't like your triple post. It's vague and an old argument that VP Baltar made a while back. This question is extremely loaded, and I can't see it coming from a pro-town player:

What I want to know is: why would you orchestrate something like this?

Unvote: Moriarty147

,

Vote: PaperPenguin

.

5. This is the whole problem I have with you and PP. You tacked on a bullshit reason to further justify your case. It just doesn't look good at all.

I never said it was a really strong reason. But it is a tell, however slight.

Hero, I strongly disagree with you over the Empking issue. He did get worse, and as FL said, "Sometimes scummy playstyles actually do roll scum. You have to go for it sometimes."

Also X, you didn't answer this:

What was scummy about my vote?

Whoops, sorry. I FoSed you based on a contrived case against me, and your willingness to vote so quickly in LYLO. The only way a person can safely do that is if you know your target is scum or if you are scum.

I am Paul McCartney, Supersaint. I want to have Cow go next, but because of her V/LA, I'll speed things up and ask tubby to go next.

[X]

Oh, and I'll be away from a computer just long enough to need to announce it -

V/LA from Friday afternoon to Sunday evening

. I'll try to post Friday morning and late on Sunday.

[X]

Sorry, Cow. I kept thinking that Sotty was a he (because the avatar looks like a guy to me for some reason) and kept having to consciously change to she. So I guess I overextended myself to you. Not intentional, I guarantee.

My song is Live and Let Die. I had to check that it was his when Vi first sent it to me, but it was. Oh, and nice catch in tubby's ISO.

And yeah, I want Cow to claim now that he is here.

[X]

I really don't like tubby's 592. He's being very dismissive without really explaining why. Also sort of surprised and wary of the claim that he always buddies to people in non-newbie games.

Also, what exactly is a "supersaint?" I've never seen that role before.

If I'm lynched, whoever hammers, dies. The flavor with my ability comes down to that I'll get mad at anyone who keeps me from playing my music.

Also. Has, VPB, X, tubby: What do you think about image's attack on Moriarty day 1? Bullshit or no?

No. I already explained that.

A lot of new information has appeared that needs to be analyzed, but I'll hold off on posting it until after EK and Hero have claimed their ability flavors. Not sure if that will help very much, but it can't hurt to put that information out in the open.

[X]

HOWEVER, I do believe hascow on a gut level and I take some issue with X's claim because it basically sounds like the perfect role for a scum to claim and slip by on their way to victory. Super Saint is a role that makes the town afraid to lynch them once it is known publically. The flavor of "Live and Let Die" doesn't necessarily make sense either because, at a literal level, the title means the exact opposite of his role. Sounds more like if he lives, the town would be the ones dying.

Quite honestly, I was considering lying and just calling myself a Vanilla Townie because of the heightened suspicion that my role would bring/has brought me. But I figured that it would hurt the town most if I kept quiet and town hammered me.

One thing I found ironic about his claim was that if he was really a Super Saint, then why didn't he use this post as a chance to breadcrumb? There are not saints in Judaism as far as I know. Why not say you are Catholic or something in that post? I don't think you could ask for a more perfect breadcrumbing opportunity.

Good idea. I really wish I had done that. But it didn't occur to me. I've never breadcrumbed before.

From my point of view, I think it would be best to lynch X with a hero (preferably) or tubby hammer. If X is lying, he's dead scum. If X is who he says he is, we are still highly likely to hit scum from the supersaint fallout.

Let's say I am who I say I am (which I am), and that scum hammers me. Then the game goes to Night with 5 players alive. If the NK goes through and there are 3 scum in total, the game's over. So that's not a good position to be in.

And the vast majority of comments so far have been on me? Surprising. Because look at EK & Cow's claims:
EK claims Hider, and that Sotty and VPB are town.
Cow claims Jailkeeper, and that tubby was Jailkept N3 (among other things).

Doesn't look like a lot at first, but look at all of the implications if they're both town:
EK, Sotty, VPB, and Cow are all town.
tubby did not kill last night.

Which means that Hero, tubby and I are the only possible scum, and Hero or I performed the kill last Night. I think that there's a really good chance that one of them is lying, as I highly doubt a two-person scumteam. I plan to give the thread a good re-read tomorrow and see which one of them is more likely lying.

[X]

I highly doubt a two-person scumteam.

why's that?

Because of regular balance. The two-person scumteam I'm talking about would be tubby & Hero. So if everyone else is telling the truth but those two, the role list would be:

Hider
Tracker
Jailkeeper
Supersaint
6 Vanilla Townies
2 Mafia (of some sort)

Those two mafia would have to be souped up a lot to have a fair balance.

Cow, do you believe EK's claim?

[X]

I believe her role, but I have seen Hider as a scum ability, so her role being true doesn't make her town. Saying that, however, I don't see her in my top 2 scum.

Really? Do you have a link? I don't see the logic behind making scum a Hider, but all right.

I don't believe so. That town powerrole list doesn't look all that strong to me, honestly. Hider and Supersaint are both really swingy roles that can end up benefiting scum as much as they do town. Particularly if EK is telling the truth and she dies when hiding with scum. So, you basically have JK (which could hurt town by limiting abilities) and a tracker. Neither of these roles are confirmable to town and would leave their players still open to suspicion upon claim.

I didn't think about it that way. If played properly, they can be very strong together, but the downsides are pretty bad if played improperly. So a tubby/Hero team is possible...but I still don't want to count on there being 2 scum for this to work.

[X]

so if hero is scum does that make scum, or vica verca?

This is incomprehensible.

Since there's three scum, which means that 3 of these four are scum:

This sounds like someone in the know.

FoS: EK

. EK, do you believe Cow?

[X]

so if hero is scum does that make scum, or vica verca?

This is incomprehensive

what i am asking is if I flipp scum does that mean hero is scum, or if hero flips scum does that make me scum

Neither of these was what I had originally intended. I was saying that if Cow & EK are telling the truth, then you two are the scum. However, either of you flipping scum does not preclude Cow or EK from lying. So no, if you flip scum, Hero is not necessarily scum, and vice versa.

I just think if we don't try to have someone who looks scummy hammer X, then we'll lose outright.

Way to not explain your last statement and make an even more cryptic one.

Right now I just don't believe X is a supersaint. I think it was more likely a claim to try and starve off his lynch that has backfired. With cow claiming jail keeper and having that match up with my no result on night one I am tempted to believe him, however he could simply be a scum roleblocker. If I am wrong and X is a supersaint then I would rather have Hero hammer him.

See, this is the attitude that I'm seeing among the Town: I am scum because SuperSaint is a convenient scum claim. Why is it so unlikely that I'm telling the truth?

[X]

EK:

A lot of focus on VPB in the beginning. Possible scum ploy with deciding each other is good. Then for a while he tunnels on Pesco. I still don't get the whole problem with my QFTing image, but that's been gone over a couple times. The next day she focuses on the Juls/Empking relationship, which is very understandable. Then she's backing up VPB a lot in the Juls/VPB fight, which I agree with, but strengthens the possibility of a connection between the two (EK & VPB). Then Hero jumps in an makes a case on her, which I think she easily combats. Then the Hider claim starts confirming people, and one of them is (surprise) VPB. And then from then on, she's slipped up with a 3 scum proclamation, huge speculation on the setup (that Vi is a bastard mod who would let her live with non-mafia scum). I think this combination deserves a

Vote: EK

.

Because I don't think a real supersaint would have claimed out right in this situation. It would have been different if you were being run up and were worried about a townie hammering you, but that wasn't the case. I think it was more likely that you were tying to play on the lylo or near lylo fear. With the situation like it is, the claim just feels manufactured.

But it was mass claim. I wouldn't have claimed if I wasn't forced to. Are you saying that this is a case where town should lie? And the information was relevant, too, because the worst possible scenario is that someone town hammers me.

[X]

Who are you leaning towards killing tonight? I was thinking X as he posts quite a bit and seems to have a solid head on his shoulders. Getting rid of him will help us control the game a little more.

Thanks, bud!

I don't feel there is a scum team. We're it I think.

Yeah, I thought the same thing. It was really screwy how there was no night where two people died. So when I died, I figured that it was Game Over. Then EK & I were like, WTF?

Wow, did Elvis really just confirm us both as town? Epic.

Yeah, well, like you, we thought we were the only scum. And confirming both of you wasn't the smartest, but confirming one of you wouldn't have been too crazy.

The scum really ruled this game, and I'm not just blowing my own horn. I think all four of us looked pretty town except for my claim...

bangs head on desk...

And Vi, the Miller without a Cop was just bastardly. Otherwise, really great setup.

[X]

And Vi, the Miller without a Cop was just bastardly. Otherwise, really great setup.

Is it?
Miller

implies

that there is a Cop, but it doesn't guarantee one.
Plus IMO Sane Cop is one of

the worst

roles in the book. Not to say I won't ever put one in a setup, but etc.

It was misleading, that's all. It didn't bother me really, 'cause I was scum, but it would have if I was town.

Sorry, Fonz. I hate Hip Hop. This is my kind of music.

[X]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11725

My rulesets force people to unvote and vote in bold because I absolutely consider fakehammers, etc. to be legitimate tactics. There shouldn't be a ban on being clever.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11680

3)

Voting:

Votes should be in bold in order for them to count, for instance:

Vote: freeko

. If you wish to vote for a different player, you MUST unvote, also in

bold

. As long as I can tell who you're voting for, I don't care if you abbreviate someone's name when you vote them.

While Empking was at L-1 and Juls was voting VP Baltar:

Maybe you will understand it if I say it in a different color

I will vote Empking if we get close to deadline...happily

but I am going to have this conversation about VP and you and Sotty misrepresenting everything I say because I think it is important for people to see this after since you guys have set up my lynch for tomorrow.

---

Now, Juls DID bold his vote for Empking. However, he did not unvote. My question is, if he had not been voting, and then posted that quote, would you have counted it as a vote and ended the Day? I realize it wouldn't make much difference even then, because the meter's probably gonna run out in the next two days. But I'm a curious guy. So?

I can answer that after the game is over.

So????