Mini 809 ~ Mafia ViPod (Game Over!)

[elvis_knits]

FIRST!

DAMN YOU!!!!!!!!!!!

--FORBIDDANLIGHT WAS DAMNED FOR THIS POST-- ~Vi

[elvis_knits]

Hey, what can I say, some girls are just lucky ^-^.

I guess I'm a different kind of girl

[elvis_knits]

You people are amazing ^.^

We <3 you too!

[elvis_knits]

Vi, I think it's time for some modkills.

[elvis_knits]

If by undisclosed location, you mean "hell," then yeah, I think I remember you saying that.

[elvis_knits]

vote VP Baltar

Bandwagon ho!

(And by "ho" I do not mean prostitute).

[elvis_knits]

Nobody has joined this awesome bandwagon all day.

Apparently your buddies are reluctant to buss you, VP.

[elvis_knits]

You can pm me later forbiddan.

On the topic of slow activity, however, I would move that the scum would be going especially out of their way to lurk in this game since it would actually have an effect upon the deadline. To that end, I move that lurking not be tolerated in the slightest for this game.

To that end,

Unvote, Vote hasdgfas

Claimed he could not find the thread initially and then he implied that he has a night action.

I saw that too about hascow, but decided not to mention it because I have no read on the likelihood of it being a town night action or a scum night action. Until such time as cow seemed scummy, I didn't think it was in the town's interest to say anything.

Basically, what you're doing amounts to role fishing, without other reasoning why you think cow might be scum.

[elvis_knits]

I noticed what hasdgfas said and I realized he probably had a power role but thought it was better not to put a big flashing light on it to say "HEY LOOK AT HIM". I don't think the question was necessarily pro-town since it is one that could have been asked in private and I don't think it is very pro-town of VP Baltar to make an issue of it this early simply because it could go either way. You are either pushing the lynch of someone who has a power role or you are pushing the lynch of scum. Either way, we should let the rest of his actions speak for themselves.

It looks like I could have just QFT'ed this and then said:

Also, VP is role fishing.

[elvis_knits]

What clarification were you looking for?

This is where I see the role fishing. You wanted him to confirm or deny that he had a power role.

[elvis_knits]

How could asking that question in thread be harmful to the town?

[elvis_knits]

Why would cow implying he has a night action be harmful to the town?

Only if he's town and outed himself as a power role. In which case you shouldn't be voting for him, seeing as he's town, and a power role.

If he's scum trying to set up a fake claim, I don't see how that's so harmful to town. Faking a power role is not that easy, contrary to popular belief, and there will be multiple ways to catch him if that's what he's trying to do.

Why do you assume that only town persons would have seen his question?

I'm not assuming that. What does that have to do with anything?

[elvis_knits]

Of course outing yourself as a power role is harmful to town, but um, the person would still be town, so it's even more harmful to town to vote/lynch them.

I realize that scum are apt to pick up on a breadcrumb, maybe even more that town. So I don't mind you pointing it out for that reason. Whether you pointed it out or not, it would still be there. But your questions do more that point out his potential breadcrumb, they force him and others to talk about it more, which increases the chance that he or someone else will give another clue to their role. It is a way of role fishing.

I think what you are trying to say is that you did NOT think there was any chance that cow was a power role, and that you thought cow was planting that in advance of a fake claim and so it was inherently scummy. You're saying no real power role would ask a question in thread because they wouldn't want to draw attention to themselves.

My question to you, VP, do you still think what cow did was scummy? Or do you think he just tends to like to nail down the rules?

[elvis_knits]

I think what you are trying to say is that you did NOT think there was any chance that cow was a power role, and that you thought cow was planting that in advance of a fake claim and so it was inherently scummy. You're saying no real power role would ask a question in thread because they wouldn't want to draw attention to themselves.

I did not actually say that there was no chance of that. I do, however, think it would be more likely as a scum move than a town move.

And what makes his question/breadcrumb more likely to be a scum move than a town move?

Do you view all breadcrumbs that way? If not, what was more scummy about this one?

[elvis_knits]

I just don't think that's the way you should act around breadcrumbs unless you have a reason to think it's fake or the person is scummy. I guess you're saying it was too obvious, and therefore looked fake?

The risk of outing roles seems worse than the potential benefit. Because the attack is so WIFOM that it's hardly damning to hascow.

(And by outing roles, I don't mean that the breadcrumb would have remained hidden or scum wouldn't see it. But by you commenting on it and forcing cow and others to comment on it, gives more information about who might be power roles and who might not be).

[elvis_knits]

You brought it up. You made it a topic of conversation. And I'm TRYING to figure out if it was possible that you had pro-town motivations or if you were just role fishing.

And if accusing you of rolefishing makes ME a rolefisher, then, yes I am. But I don't see any way around that.

[elvis_knits]

I would have waited until tomorrow before suggesting that hasd is actively baiting a nightkill, something useful might happen if the scum try to reach for the lowest hanging fruit.

Explain.

Second this.

To that end,

Unvote, Vote hasdgfas

Claimed he could not find the thread initially and then he implied that he has a night action.

Sure it's rather crappy for a serious vote reason, but look where it's come to now. You're still voting cow for lack of a better target, I expect you should find one pretty soon.

And how does that imply I have a night action? Seriously, it's clarifying the rules.

So you were just worried about somebody who may potentially have a night action and were just trying to be helpful?

This is a strawman misrep, right?

No one said that he should be lynched for it. I think it did deserve clarification, however because I don't assume anyone to be an idiot, and I wouldn't expect someone with a powerrole to be foolishly asking questions like that in the thread. I could however see scum trying to buy town points subtly.

I believe votes have always been indicative of lynching intent. When you said this, you did want cow to hang because that's what your actions had shown.

On the other hand, e_K's questions all feel like loaded ones that goad VPB into particular responses.

Unvote
Vote VPB
FoS e_k

unvote vote pesco

For trying to have it both ways while putting VP L-1.

[elvis_knits]

There's no good reason for me not to suspect the both of you.

If you think I am asking loaded questions, why would you agree with me and vote VP? To the point of putting him L-1?

You're calling my attack scummy AND agreeing with my conclusion at the same time. That does not make sense.

It seems like a very dangerous thing to do, to put a guy at L-1 when you are suspicious of his main attacker. If you think I'm scum, then you should doubt the case on VP. But you're sure enough to put him L-1 on page 5?

[elvis_knits]

I would like to know why Juls and forbiddan are voting empking over pesco.

I agree his vote was just an echo of my reasoning, etc, but his vote was L-2, and PEsco's vote put VP at L-1 (on page 4, not page fiev like I said last post). Pesco's vote is worse because it was the latest one on the wagon, going L-1 on page 4, plus she calls me scummy in the same post. If you think guy's main attacker is scummy, you don't put guy at L-1.

[elvis_knits]

If I don't have 2 votes to throw around, I make do with a FoS. In my mind, I've already lined them up as my lynch preferences.

The questions I don't like the sound of:

How could asking that question in thread be

harmful to the town?

Why would cow implying he has a night action be

harmful to the town?

Packing the gotcha's there. On a psycholinguistics level I notice the repetition which is underlined. E_k has been trying to paint cow's move as 'harmful to town' by asking the questions like this.

Are you really a psycholinguist? Because your read is basically the opposite of what I actually thought, and I'm pretty sure it's obvious from what I wrote.

I DON'T think cow's actions are harmful to the town. That's why I was asking VP how cow's actions could be harmful. Because I don't think they are. Unless cow is town and outed himself as a power role, and in that case, voting him is not something we would want to do anyway.

If you think I am asking loaded questions, why would you agree with me and vote VP? To the point of putting him L-1?

You're calling my attack scummy AND agreeing with my conclusion at the same time. That does not make sense.

It seems like a very dangerous thing to do, to put a guy at L-1 when you are suspicious of his main attacker. If you think I'm scum, then you should doubt the case on VP. But you're sure enough to put him L-1 on page 5?

I am free to suspect a person with or without agreeing to your opinions. When I voted, I knew it was not a lynch and made no further consideration for L- however much it was.

Of course you're free to do whatever you want, but it always makes me rethink voting for someone if I don't like the attacks coming from their biggest attacker. Especially if it's close to a lynch.

If you knew it was not a lynch, that means you must have counted the votes, and knew it was L-1.

Can you explain why these things don't matter to you? Because they matter to me, so I'd like to know your perspective.

I'd like to know now, why did you not post more concise reasoning when you voted me? All of this you could have easily said with the vote post, but you've waited until after some other people have voted and voiced their views. Why?

I didn't have time to do a long post at the time. And I didn't realize it would be that hard to understand... that I would need a long explanation.

In the post where I voted you, I wrote one sentence that summarizes my views on you.

For trying to have it both ways while putting VP L-1.

"Trying to have it both ways" was about you suspecting me and my case on VP, while still voting VP, which does not make sense to me as I have explained more since then. And the L-1 thing was there too. So everything that I have said since on the topic is present in the vote post, but I guess it was not clear enough. So I have since explained more.

[elvis_knits]

Oops, the last quote says pesco, but I wrote it.

[elvis_knits]

I'm having trouble understanding wtf paperpenguin is doing here. He seems to be saying a similar thing to what VP was saying -- that breadcrumbs are scummy. He's also pulling stuff out his ass like death millers. My feeling on that sort of speculation is that UNTIL we know something concrete about weird/bastard roles, speculating on them is useless at best, and confusing to the town at worst. Confusing the town, distracting from scum hunting, is very bad.

paperpenguin, are you from another site too? Because your discussion of death millers and jesters is not what I would expect from a noob.

[elvis_knits]

Are you really a psycholinguist? Because your read is basically the opposite of what I actually thought, and I'm pretty sure it's obvious from what I wrote.

Still studying but I know enough to make the observation. The point of reference in your questions is the phrase 'harmful to town'. It asks things from a negative perspective. If the respondent isn't careful, you've baited them into a slip.

But I was asking how cows actions are harmful to town. Because I don't see how they are. So how can I be trying to say that cows actions are harmful to town?

You're assuming that I can somehow hypnotize people and implant ideas into their head by saying the opposite of what I want them to think?

Also, VP was the first one to originate the phrase "harmful to town" in post 73 when talking about cow's question. I only reused it because I was trying to be exact and refer to his wording.

Basically your whole idea here is ridiculous on more than one level.

Your one-liner reason for voting me can hardly be called sufficient for telling everyone what your thought process was. And why should it take a long time for you to post was is clearly obvious to your thinking? If you see something so glaringly wrong, you surely can't be so slow as to require more than a minute to point it out and say so. Posts take time when you want to put heavy thoughts into choosing your words and framing your questions. I see your point of view on me and I don't feel it could have been such an intensive exercise to say what you felt right there and then.

All my reasons which I have explained in more detail stem from the one-liner. You can see how that's true. I didn't have time to do more than that at the time when I wrote the post. Maybe I could have written a few more sentences, but I didn't think it was really necessary, as I thought your behavior was obviously scummy.

[elvis_knits]

I notice Pesco did not respond to my post 138.

[elvis_knits]

I notice Pesco did not respond to my post 138.

I didn't see a question worth responding to.

Let's see if you find these worthy of a response:

1)I pointed out that VP originated the phrase "harmful to town" about cow. I repeated it in an effort to be precise. Does that change your view of my use of the phrase? Do you still think I was trying to brainwash the other players by repeating the phrase?

2)How can I be trying to make people think cow is harmful to town, if my questions are attacking the accuracy of the statement?

3)Can you link me to some outside material about this psycholinguist phenomenon you are describing?

[elvis_knits]

Not sure if pesco is still the most scummy at the moment. Hascow and PP both need a re-investigation. Will post again when I've had some actual sleep.

"...But until then I'll just leave my vote on Pesco in case someone decides to hammer and I get to help a mislynch while distancing myself from the wagon a bit."

QFT.

QFT? Really?

I didn't think moriarty's post was that bad. Moriarty basically said he's sucpicious of some other people besides pesco, but not sure they're more scummy yet.

image is putting words in moriarty's mouth that are WIFOM at best.

Also, I think image (and X) are being super harsh to moriarty for keeping a vote on pesco just because moriarty is not SURE pesco is the MOST scummy anymore. OBV moriarty still thinks pesco is scummy.

A slight waver in confidence doesn't seem like such a big deal.

One, looking at Vi's vote count Pesco was at lynch -2 so that would have to be a couple of quick votes.

And two, how do you know it will be a mislynch?

It was a hypothetical. Moriatory could be scummy for this, assuming that Pesco is Town (which was what Moriatory was guessing).

Moriarty was guessing that Pesco is town? Where do you get that? Do you mean image?

If you meant moriarty, you're putting words in his mouth even more. Just because he said he wasn't SURE that pesco was still the most scummy, that IN NO WAY means that moriarty thought pesco is town.

[elvis_knits]

You're reading a lot into Moriarty's post.

[elvis_knits]

Sotty seems town to me, btw.

[elvis_knits]

Empking doesn't have a post restriction. He's always like this. Haven't you ever played with him before? I have seen him make similarly useless/nonsensical comments as both town and scum. I would prefer him as a fallback lynch. Our battery power is going down pretty fast, so if we absolutely can't agree on some of the scummier people, then I say we go for empking. Otherwise, I think we have bigger fish to fry.

I would prefer a lynch of
1)Pesco
2)image
3)X

Pesco's outs someone at L-1 on page 4, and the psycholinguistics stuff is nonsense, and he refused the address my questions once and then disappeared. The VLA may be totally innocent, but the refusal to answer my questions and continue the convo still stands. Plus tried to set up that one or both of me and VP Baltar must be scum. Which is getting close to setting up lynches.

image for putting words in moriarty's mouth.

X for QFTing image putting words in moriarty's mouth and also answering sotty's question directed to image.

I am somewhat suspicious of Juls and how she seems to prefer lynching empking over pesco. First by voting empking over pesco when they both voted VP Baltar, and I think pesco's vote was worse. And now by returning to empking when nothing is resolved with pesco. (Although, I understand the impulse to keep challenging other players when pesco is VLA... we don't want to just twiddle our thumbs. So maybe that's what juls is doing.).

Anyway, I see a possible connection between image and X, and also a connection between pesco and juls. Also FL possible connection to pesco/juls, for similar reasons as I see juls with pesco. This is sort of unimportant until one of these people pops up scum. I don't present it as evidence against any of them, but just for later use if it becomes pertinent.

[elvis_knits]

SHould be "Pesco puts someone at L-1 on page 4"

[elvis_knits]

I was gone yesterday at a baby shower, so I haven't read everything in detail. Lynching a claimed miller who said lots of weird role-related things during the day is probably a good move, especially since PP didn't give flavor, and when he did, he only said backstreet boys. If he didn't have anything to hide, he should have said backstreet boys from the beginning, and also should have put his lyrics up when asked for flavor. Anyway, it's done now.

[elvis_knits]

Give reasons.

I already did yesterday.

Lack of contribution, no attempts at scumhunting, failure to yield, putting funny hats on statues...

If your reason is a joke then its not a reason.

Has: You for hypocrisy and EK for reasons I can't recall.

When was cow a hypocrite?

Why are you suspecting me if you can't remember why?

I've played with empking a lot lately and he's always this brief and annoying, but he's not even making sense now.

vote empking

[elvis_knits]

Oh I see cow said basically the same thing. I could have just QFTed.

[elvis_knits]

Give reasons.

I already did yesterday.

Lack of contribution, no attempts at scumhunting, failure to yield, putting funny hats on statues...

If your reason is a joke then its not a reason.

Has: You for hypocrisy and EK for reasons I can't recall.

When was cow a hypocrite?

Why are you suspecting me if you can't remember why?

I've played with empking a lot lately and he's always this brief and annoying, but he's not even making sense now.

vote empking

Empking, you dodged my questions.

[elvis_knits]

Don't you think you might want to go back and try to figure out why you thought I was suspicious before you throw mud around?

How are we supposed to know you actually found me suspicious if you don't give reasons?

[elvis_knits]

Juls --

How did you go from being sure empking was scum and wanting him dead, to thinking he's probably a jester and maybe we shouldn't lynch him?

As you said, you thought of the jester possibility before, so why did it change your mind now?

I think it would be a really bad move to let a superscummy player off the hook on the CHANCE they might be a jester. Where is the strategy in that? Let them live the whole game, making scummy plays and continue excusing that horrible behavior?

[elvis_knits]

I too am suspicious of Elvis for reasons Empking can't recall; this seems like a very iron-clad case, and I'm wondering why Elvis hasn't been lynched yet.[/sarcasm]

I'm leery of an Empking lynch because he hasn't done anything scummy; more generally, he hasn't done anything. It seems like it is going to give the scum a free ride through day two. That being said, Empking, if you're going to continue playing like this (or not playing, as the case may be) then you will be a necessary lynch today. So please, if you are town, be more helpful.

*TWEEEEEEET*

SCUMMY POST ALERT.

First off, we have the /sarcasm tag. While I understand that people use this, I always find it scummy, because one thing that I've found is that subconsciously, scum want to tell you they're scum, and will say something only scum would say, but hide it as a joke.

However, that pales compared to the second part. Full wishy-washiness on Empking. "empking's not scummy, but he's also not town because he's not here. oh, and empking, be helpful if you're town. This entire post REEKS of scum hinting to their buddy that they have to bus them, or at the very least, scum trying to act town by telling the town lurker to be more helpful.

vote: image

I agree on this read of image. I didn't like him putting words in moriarty's mouth yesterday either, and this post of his reminds me of the problems I saw there. There is that element of sarcasm that is strange. I am all in favor of humor, but when you don't do much or any scum hunting besides making jokes, then it's suspicious.

Also, image makes a joke at empking's expense, playing off how scummy empking is being, and then goes on to say how he's not really suspicious of empking. The sarcastic joke acknowledges how scummy empking is being, BUT then image says how he doesn't want to lynch empking. That doesn't make sense.

[elvis_knits]

Also, I have no idea who image IS suspicious of. He doesn't seem to be looking for scum. If you're going to try to stop the lynch of the highest vote getter, you should have a better idea of who to lynch. Or at least some idea. image isn't having any ideas.

[elvis_knits]

Empking, do you have a reason for voting juls or are you just voting her in hopes of saving yourself?

[elvis_knits]

Empking, do you have a reason for voting juls or are you just voting her in hopes of saving yourself?

I think the way she's playing she's trying to protect herself while on a town bandwagon.

Sounds like what you're doing too.

[elvis_knits]

I don't know juls is town. I am actually suspicious of her too. But I think your vote for her is just because she's the other leading wagon, and you're trying to protect yourself. You voted her but only gave reasons after I asked

[elvis_knits]

yah pretty much that

plus i believe cow is town, vp you are pretty much town, juls i have no idea about i have only played with her once and i have no idea how to read her, and yah thats about it.

oh forbidden sounds townish to me too

but yah empking is the scummiest to me

any reasons for any of that?
Or just randomly throwing it out there?

I've played with tubby before. I consider him a gut player, and not a bad one at that. I agree that he should give more content/reasoning, but the above post doesn't worry me. It's normal for him. And I don't really think that he would come in and pronounce a bunch of people town if he was scum.

I still think we should lynch empking.

[elvis_knits]

I've played with tubby before. I consider him a gut player, and not a bad one at that. I agree that he should give more content/reasoning, but the above post doesn't worry me. It's normal for him. And I don't really think that he would come in and pronounce a bunch of people town if he was scum.

I don't get your last sentence.

tubby, you seriously don't have any other reads after 15 pages that you haven't been around for?

He did provide more than one read. He only said one person he thought was scum, but he did say a few people seemed town to him.

And the last sentence means that I don't see a lot scum go around pronouncing people are town. It narrows your lynching options.

As for empking's claim... I don't remember Right Said Fred. Anyone?

[elvis_knits]

elvis_knits

My initial impression of ek was town. I didn't have a problem with her attack on VP. It felt genuine. But there are some things I started noticing later.

Anyway, I see a possible connection between image and X, and also a connection between pesco and juls. Also FL possible connection to pesco/juls, for similar reasons as I see juls with pesco. This is sort of unimportant until one of these people pops up scum. I don't present it as evidence against any of them, but just for later use if it becomes pertinent.

Just to condence this post ek says Pesco/Tubby, image, X, FL, Juls are possible scum. She says it isn't "evidence" but seriously come on...thats 5 of 11 possible players she sees as scum. I have further problems with the fact that Empking and VP aren't on this list and they are high on mine.

Lots o' problems here!

Misrep. I saw a possible connection between 2 players and a seperate connection between 3 others. I did not think they were all scum together, nor did I say that.

Also, why is 5 players too many to suspect? I know they can't all be scum, but I have to question and pressure everyone who seeme like they might be scum. What is the problem?

And I did not suspect empking at the time, but I do now. I am trying to lynch him, meanwhile you are trying everything you can to vote/lynch somebody other than empking. If empking is so high on your list of suspects, why have you just unvoted him?

If he didn't have anything to hide, he should have said backstreet boys from the beginning, and also should have put his lyrics up when asked for flavor. Anyway, it's done now.

What would lyrics have changed?

It would have seemed like a more believable claim to me. I am always suspicious when people don't claim everything pertinent at the time of their claim. It is either an error of their part, or a sign that they are scum faking the claim.

---

So, am I the only one who thinks it's really weird how Juls long post had a bunch of parts where she attacks people for their treatment of empking (like they didn't think he was scummy when she did), but now she's voting VP and attacking the people who want empking lynched?

I could go for a Juls lynch at this point too.

[elvis_knits]

Juls admitting she is fully aware of emp's site wide meta makes my skin crawl. Juls what do you think of emp's play today so far? Better, worse, the same as yesterday?

I agree. I think previously she was like "whenever I've played with him he's been better than this and that's all I know" [/paraphrase of my memory]

Also, her attack on VP is very lame.

[elvis_knits]

Also, why is 5 players too many to suspect? I know they can't all be scum, but I have to question and pressure everyone who seeme like they might be scum. What is the problem?

It's more the fact that you have 5 players that you saw as scummy and I know that at least two I see/saw as scummy weren't on your list. If we are on completely different pages it makes me wander if we hold the same alignment.

I was just noting connections between players there. It wasn't even a scum list, and I think you are taking the quote out of context because you are treating it as my scum list when actually it was not. It had some people I was suspicious of who seemed connected to others, and I even said that it was not definitive and I was only noting it on the chance someone there comes up scum then we look at people they're connected to.

Also like Sotty said, just because our suspects don't match shouldn't make you think I'm scum. It should be deeper than that, based on my reasoning or something.

And I did not suspect empking at the time, but I do now. I am trying to lynch him, meanwhile you are trying everything you can to vote/lynch somebody other than empking. If empking is so high on your list of suspects, why have you just unvoted him?

No, I have every intention of voting Empking if we get close to deadline. Empking is #2 on my list right now. But I think VP is scum. I unvoted Empking so that I could complete my post and decided after I want to vote VP right now.

I don't understand the reasoning on VP. It seems party based on a meta of him?

So, am I the only one who thinks it's really weird how Juls long post had a bunch of parts where she attacks people for their treatment of empking (like they didn't think he was scummy when she did), but now she's voting VP and attacking the people who want empking lynched?

Other than VP I don't think I really attacked anybody in my post. I have some mild suspicions of you but it's not like I am beating the ek drum here. I really am anxious for the reveal at the end of this game because I am baffled at how difficult it is for me to get anyone to understand my points. I feel like because I went V/LA and talked about Jesters that nothing else I say matters. But my goal here is if I do get lynched that I leave behind enough information for the town to see my intentions were sincere.

It's just strange for you to vote empking and call him scum, then throw doubt on the lynch talking about jesters, then revote him under pressure, then jump off again based on a weak case on VP. That is the way I see your behavior, and it reads like either you trying to save empking, or avoid blame for the lynch.

[elvis_knits]

I agree image is fail. He's not even voting anyone.

[elvis_knits]

This is pretty short sighted. If you and Elvis had the same alignment that doesn't automatically mean you would suspect the same people.

What part of mild suspicion am I not being clear about? I am getting irritated that Sotty7 and EK are trying to make it out like I am on a witch hunt against her. When someone is on a different page then me all together they deserve a second look and watching. If I were voting her for these reasons I could understand the argument.

I'm not clear why "mild suspicion" means we shouldn't question faulty reasoning. Why does the degree of your suspicion matter here?

Also like Sotty said, just because our suspects don't match shouldn't make you think I'm scum. It should be deeper than that, based on my reasoning or something.

When did I say you were scum? Seriously...the misreps in this game are overflowing. So let me get this straight. You can note suspicions and links of 5 players in one post but if I mention a suspicion of you then I am short sighted and not logical. Quite a double standard there.

It is logical to think that if you suspect someone that you are thinking they might be scum. Since you are suspecting them OF being scum. It's the same thing.

I don't understand the reasoning on VP. It seems party based on a meta of him?

My biggest problem with VP is the way he is twisting what people are saying and molding it to fit whatever he wants to push.

I haven't noticed him doing that. I can go read more closely, but I haven't noticed it at this point.

It's just strange for you to vote empking and call him scum, then throw doubt on the lynch talking about jesters, then revote him under pressure, then jump off again based on a weak case on VP. That is the way I see your behavior, and it reads like either you trying to save empking, or avoid blame for the lynch.

Maybe you will understand it if I say it in a different color

I will vote Empking if we get close to deadline...happily

but I am going to have this conversation about VP and you and Sotty misrepresenting everything I say because I think it is important for people to see this after since you guys have set up my lynch for tomorrow.

It doesn't matter if you promise me all day to vote empking, or even if you end up doing it. Your actions have been to try to divert the empking wagon on several occasions. Revoting him will not make those actions go away.

BTW pink didn't show up very well in sepia.

[elvis_knits]

I lack the will to get excited about mafia today (has nothing to do with this game), so I haven't read everything, just skimmed. I agree that juls is the scummiest for reasons stated yesterday. It doesn't make sense to me for her to push a lynch on emp d1 and then stall the lynch on d2, and then get back on the lynch because we pointed out her inconsistency. I also don't think her case against vp makes any sense.

[elvis_knits]

I have to agree that the police sounds weird. You'd think that like, the police might be an investigative role or something? Not just vanilla? So it doesn't really match up for me.

I'm not basing juls' scumminess on that, but it certainly doesn't make her any more credible, IMO.

[elvis_knits]

Explain why a Vanilla townie trying to draw the night kill is scummy?

but I didn't say you were trying to draw the night kill.
You claimed you were, but I don't think you were at all. You wanted to look like you were, but that's completely different.

This is just one of the many things that seems off about juls. If she was trying to draw the kill, it was not obvious, and if it was not obvious, how did she plan to draw the night kill? I guess one of the reasons this seems bad to me is that if she's scum she would obviously know it's safe to "try to draw the night kill." Also this seems bad to me because it seems like a really WIFOM way to try to look town.

I'm not sure I can see myself voting anyone but juls today. But I am interested in talking some more because they day hasn't gone on too long yet, and personally I haven't had enough time to be as active as I'd like.

I think juls expressed some suspicion over tubby. I'd like to hear what her reasoning is. I don't need a long drawn out case or anything, but just her basic thinking.

[elvis_knits]

We've only had one NK so far, so I find it hard to believe there's two scum groups. Can you explain why you think there's two scum groups?

[elvis_knits]

In an effort to discuss more than just juls today, I thought I would do a read of everyone.

1. Truant replacing image N2 replacing Atticus.Finch D1

I disliked image a lot. His sarcasm combined with lack of content was very suspicios. I don't like the way image put words in moriarty's mouth at one point on D1. X QFT'ed image when image put words in moriarty's mouth.

4. Hero764 replacing forbiddanlight D2

FL was not particularly helpful or active in the game. Also defended Pesco, which I found scummy. I haven't seen enough from Hero to be able to say anything about him.

5. hasdgfas

His posts are pretty short but I find myself agreeing with him a lot.

6. Juls

This has been covered ad nauseum. I think she's scummy.

7. tubby216 replacing Pesco47 D2 replacing Lindisfarne D1

Tubby is living up to his meta. He recently made a comment about how he doesn't like to explain things because he always makes himself look scummy. I'd consider it way more scummy for him to stop explaining himself, especially since now he has floated the excuse makes it easier.

Oh, and also I had a big problem with Pesco, and how she tried to say my attack on VP was scummy while she put VP at L-1.

Tubby on his own is not that worrisome to me, but I have lingering suspicions on Pesco.

10. Sotty7

I agree with many things she says and I basically find her townie, although I agree that at times she hasn't participated too much.

11. VP Baltar

After our first tango, VP hasn't stood out as scummy to me.

12. X

The only problem I have with him as how he agreed with image when image made a scummy comment.

So, overall, my suspicions are mostly on:
Juls
Truant/image

With lingering suspicions on the replaced players for these:
Tubby/Pesco
Hero/FL (With possible connection to Tubby/Pesco from FL defending Pesco).

And X for having a possible connection to Truant/image

[elvis_knits]

I think scum would have self-hammered already.

WIFOM to the rescue!

I didn't get online this weekend, and it looks like nothing much happened anyway. I thought my comments might help get a little more discussion going but I guess it's hard when we're all so intent on juls.

I'm ready to hammer... unless people want to talk more.

[elvis_knits]

So, overall, my suspicions are mostly on:
Juls
Truant/image

With lingering suspicions on the replaced players for these:
Tubby/Pesco
Hero/FL (With possible connection to Tubby/Pesco from FL defending Pesco).

And X for having a possible connection to Truant/image

Based on what we know now, I guess I am more looking at tubby/pesco and Hero/FL. tubby is mostly just being tubby, which could go either way, but I thought pesco was scummy D1, so that makes tubby scummier. Also, FL defended pesco, and Hero has done a whole lot of nothing, so I see them linked to tubby/pesco, and also scummy in their own right.

Tubby and Hero are my top two suspects at the moment, and everyone else is pretty far behind them.

[elvis_knits]

E_k:

Ok well, I liked E_k at first during her whole fiasco with VPB. I really stopped liking her when she defended Moriarity:

QFT? Really?

I didn't think moriarty's post was that bad. Moriarty basically said he's sucpicious of some other people besides pesco, but not sure they're more scummy yet.

image is putting words in moriarty's mouth that are WIFOM at best.

Also, I think image (and X) are being super harsh to moriarty for keeping a vote on pesco just because moriarty is not SURE pesco is the MOST scummy anymore. OBV moriarty still thinks pesco is scummy.

A slight waver in confidence doesn't seem like such a big deal.

Ugh. First of all, this accomplishes nothing for town(feel free to point them, but accomplishes three things for scum: 1. E_k looks good for defending a townie, 2. She gets to distance herself from a Xscum and 3. She gets to look like she's doing stuff so no one can question her. The fact that Moriarty was NK'd seems to suggest that it might have been a plan to make E_k look better. The fact that image's initial argument made perfect sense makes this post all the stranger.

It wasn't a defense of moriarty so much as an attack on image. It does accomplish something for town because it points out image putting words in another player's mouth. To me, that is significant since it seems pretty scummy. You don't think that it's scummy to put words in player's mouths? You think there is no town motication for pointing it out?

Your points 1,2, and 3 are WIFOM based on you assuming I'm scum. Actually, all of that is really a made-up story of what my motivations might have been if I were scum. It's circular reasoning.

Other things I don't like about her:

How did you go from being sure empking was scum and wanting him dead, to thinking he's probably a jester and maybe we shouldn't lynch him?

I really don't like how she's basically restating an argument already brought up 1(or 2?) times. This is blatant bandwagoning.

I can't help it if I agree with a what some other people said in that instance. That is actually a good thing to find places where you agree, since we are trying to find a consensus. If my only contribution to the game was useless parotting, THAT would be scummy. But I have made plenty of my own arguments.

And bandwagoning is not bad if you have a reason for doing so.

Also, I have no idea who image IS suspicious of. He doesn't seem to be looking for scum. If you're going to try to stop the lynch of the highest vote getter, you should have a better idea of who to lynch. Or at least some idea. image isn't having any ideas.

This came after a post where she agreed with an argument made against image. I'm reading this as her throwing some suspicion onto image to try and see if people will pick up and go for his lynch.

I had been suspicious of image for a while, demonstrated by the part that you yourself have quoted, where I attacked him for putting words in moriarty's mouth. So I don't see why you would think my suspicion on image was somehow false or manufactured.

I still think we should lynch empking.

Yet before she said:

I would prefer him as a fallback lynch. Our battery power is going down pretty fast, so if we absolutely can't agree on some of the scummier people, then I say we go for empking. Otherwise, I think we have bigger fish to fry.

I don't really see what changed. Except for the fact that Emp stated suspicions of ek. OMGUS much?

The second quote was on day 1 when there were other stronger leads. Lots of things changed and happened to make me think empking was the best lynch at the time of the first quote. One thing that did influence my suspicions WAS that he said he was suspicious of me "for reasons he couldn't recall." It wasn't just that he was suspcious of me... it was that he didn't have

any reason

. I don't really think that's OMGUS, since it's his reasoning (or lack thereof) that I object to.

The whole empking wagon in general was terrible btw. I realize not everyone on that wagon can be scum though.

I don't understand how it was terrible. Empking was not playing like town. I don't understand anyone thinking he was playing like town.

[elvis_knits]

It wasn't a defense of moriarty so much as an attack on image. It does accomplish something for town because it points out image putting words in another player's mouth. To me, that is significant since it seems pretty scummy. You don't think that it's scummy to put words in player's mouths? You think there is no town motication for pointing it out?

Your points 1,2, and 3 are WIFOM based on you assuming I'm scum. Actually, all of that is really a made-up story of what my motivations might have been if I were scum. It's circular reasoning.

Moriarity can defend himself. Defending him implies that you know his alignment.

And you don't seem to understand what I was getting at with the points 1 2 and 3. I was pointing out how it would help you if you were scum, not saying that's why you did it.

I can't help it if I agree with a what some other people said in that instance. That is actually a good thing to find places where you agree, since we are trying to find a consensus. If my only contribution to the game was useless parotting, THAT would be scummy. But I have made plenty of my own arguments.

And bandwagoning is not bad if you have a reason for doing so.

Bandwagoning probably wasn't the right word. I guess parroting would be better. I don't care that you agree Juls was scummy for reasons brought up by others(I thought Juls would flip scum too). You were just using someone else's argument again against her, which makes it seem like you were trying to make it seem like you were actively scumhunting while you actually weren't.

I had been suspicious of image for a while, demonstrated by the part that you yourself have quoted, where I attacked him for putting words in moriarty's mouth. So I don't see why you would think my suspicion on image was somehow false or manufactured.

Again you completely misunderstand my point. I think you're scum so obviously any suspicions would be false(unless you're bussing). The fact that you expressed suspicions of him earlier have nothing to do with this. You're trying to make image look more suspicious that people currently though to see how plausible a bandwagon would be(that's what it looked like).

The second quote was on day 1 when there were other stronger leads. Lots of things changed and happened to make me think empking was the best lynch at the time of the first quote. One thing that did influence my suspicions WAS that he said he was suspicious of me "for reasons he couldn't recall." It wasn't just that he was suspcious of me... it was that he didn't have any reason. I don't really think that's OMGUS, since it's his reasoning (or lack thereof) that I object to.

You find this strange coming from Empking why?

I don't understand how it was terrible. Empking was not playing like town. I don't understand anyone thinking he was playing like town.

Empking was playing like Empking. Believe or not, players like him who drop scumtells are actually dropping null tells, and the fact that most of you in here knew of his meta and still called him scummy for it is the terrible part.

This is my simplified version. I tried to be fair when shortening Hero's points, but I may have missed something or some nuance of his meaning, so I am leaving his original words above so that anyone can refer to it and get his full meaning.

1)
Hero: You defended moriarty, which has no town motivations, and lots of scummy ones.
Elvis: I saw a bullshit attack on moriarty, so I pointed out what was wrong with the attack. It was not dependent on moriarty's allignment. Pointing out bad attacks is a way to find scum, which is indeed pro-town.

2)
Hero: You copied people's reasons for voting juls.
Elvis: I agreed with others in that instance, but I don't have a pattern of doing that. I think for myself, but sometimes agree with people. I don't see how that is scummy.

3)
Hero: Your suspicions on image were testing the waters to see if a bandwagon would be viable.
Elvis: I don't understand this one. Why do you think I was trying to make image look more suspicious and testing the viability of a bandwagon, rather than, expressing my feelings on the guy and scum hunting? It seems like you're just ascribing motivations to me all the time which are not supported by the events, and are WIFOM at best.

4)
Elvis: Empking suspected me with "no reason."
Hero: Why does that bother you?
Elvis: People have to have reasons behind their suspicions. If they don't they are likely manufactured suspicions. And if people don't explain their reasons, you can't judge their allignment. That's handicapping the town. It's scummy.

5)
Hero: Empking was playing scummy, but he's always like that, and you should know that.
Elvis: I do know empking's meta, but I also know he actually is scum part of the time. So I try to question him to the best of my ability, and judge his allignment even though I know it's hard because of his playstyle. I am not willing to give him a free pass in every game. That would be stupid. I don't want to lynch him every game either, but I have to err on the side of caution, especially since he's not helpful anyway even when he's town.

[elvis_knits]

seriously? thats the way you wanna go?

I don't see you responding to cow's points...

[elvis_knits]

Well, comment on something else then. Who do you think is scum at this point and why?

[elvis_knits]

I think cow should claim targets.

If you guys want me to claim while we wait for him, I will, but I think people should give targets when they claim, if applicable.

[elvis_knits]

I'm Madonna, Hider. My song is "Live to Tell." If I hide with a mafia member or soneone targetted for a kill, I die. If I hide with a pro-town person who isn't targetted for a kill, I live.

I hid with sotty N1 and N2, and VP N3. I was trying to hide with people I thought were town, and since I didn't die, I know VP and sotty are town. When I lived the first night, I decided to hide with sotty again to increase my chance of survival. Then last night I decided I should go somewhere else since it could confirm another player if I lived. I've tried to say I thought these two players were town throughout the game, to give some idea of my choices/intended choices.

I thought that I had a good chance of being the target N1 since there was no kill. Now it looks like it might have also been sotty, protected by cow if he's telling the truth. And I don't really doubt him. I *think* hider resolves first usually, so I think I would have been jailkept too? I'll see if the mod can specify order of actions for me. I was not given any notifcations at any point other than my actions were received.

It doesn't matter to me who goes next of sotty or VP. I know they're both town. Maybe whoever is here, since ther is a lot of VLA?

[elvis_knits]

Oh, my ability flavor? I can't bear to sleep alone, so I go elsewhere every night.

[elvis_knits]

Since there's three scum, which means that 3 of these four are scum:

X
Hero
tubby
cow

Since X is supersaint, we should have Hero hammer so that he takes Hero with him and gives us 2 for 1.

[elvis_knits]

I just think if we don't try to have someone who looks scummy hammer X, then we'll lose outright.

[elvis_knits]

The way I see it, cow has to be lying, because it's not me.

[elvis_knits]

Are you saying there aren't 3 scum?

vote: cow

And if we lynch the supersaint, you should hammer, cow.

[elvis_knits]

I don't understand what you're asking.

[elvis_knits]

Look, I don't think I'm going about this the right way, but I think that we may have a bigger problem then we think we do. My role pm says I die if I hide with mafia, but not what would happen if I hide with another group (werewolves, SK or cult).

Cow asked me to look at the role distribution -- well, let's look. There's a miller with no cop. Is that normal? I guess tracker could get miller results, but I don't even know how that would work, if a tracker tracks a miller, do they get the result that the miller went and visited the NK? I've never heard of that before.

Basically, we have a miller with no cop in the setup. Which happens, but should tip us off that there is bastardry afoot. Which got me thinking. Maybe the anti-town group is not mafia. Just as miller had no counterpart, my hider role may have no counterpart.

Truant was a strange NK the other night. If you look at his posts, the only weird thing he mentions is a cult. Then he dies. Coincidence? I'm not sure if there is a killing cult, or a mafia that knows there is a cult out there and thought truant was cult for mentioning it.

Combine everything and there is the very real possibility that there is a mixture of groups, wolves, cult, SK. Basically, I think there is more than one faction at work here and I was trying to make sure we got at least one type of scum, or one of each. And with two factions, I think there as to be more than two scum left. I was figuring three.

[elvis_knits]

I was trying to test my theory and get reactions to judge if I was correct.

[elvis_knits]

And it's not all assumptions.

Fact is we have a miller in the setup with no claimed cop.

Fact is truant was a noob player who there was no reason to kill other than he talked about cults.

[elvis_knits]

People who deny that a cult exists are usually cult, btw.

[elvis_knits]

Dammit if you guys are going to kill me I'm going to have to tell you something before I die.

[elvis_knits]

Wow! Congrats to VP and sotty!

I also think X would have had a good chance of winning if it weren't for me! I suggested supersaint, and then gave stupid night actions with my hider role that sort of forced the town to kill him. And I failed so miserably trying to get you guys to lynch me! I thought it would be so easy to get lynched, but I didn't want to LOOK like I wanted to be lynched. Everyone just assumed I had mental problems... lol

Exciting and unpredictable setup, Vi! Battery power was awesome and forced the game to keep moving.

[elvis_knits]

I looked at the other QT and it was pretty funny when sotty and vp get a little scared and think I'm so "on the ball" because I start talking about cults. Probably made them think I was more town, when I was trying to get myself killed.

It was so crazy how the night actions doubled up so that we didn't know there was another scum group out there.