Mafia 96 - Murder in Emerald City (Game Over!)

[Kublai Khan]

Wow, Mastin's on crack. And he didn't die on Night 0, which means he's scum.

vote: Mastin

(OMG Bandwagon!)

More seriously, I'm a miller. So if any cops investigated me, adjust your sanity accordingly.

[Kublai Khan]

I'm always hidden, Mastin.

[Kublai Khan]

Aie! The walls-o-text! So soon and built from nothing! How does he do it?!?

[Kublai Khan]

You could try irc mafia to whittle time, Mastin.

[Kublai Khan]

You could try irc mafia to whittle time, Mastin.

Eh, I enjoy a good Epicmafia match every once and a while. I might do IRC mafia eventually, but, nah, IRC has a habit of kicking people out of a room if they write a post too long--I'd be kicked every time I try to respond.

I dunno. I think you'd be intrigued by Xyl's bot.

But I'll get back on-topic. Not that's really a topic happening since nobody's here yet.

So, uh, Mastin. How accurate is that last-to-confirm scum-tell working out?

[Kublai Khan]

Uh... Two observations so far:

1) roflcopter is clearing me with a little too much conviction.

2) Mastin's acting really weird. Making jokes about how scummy you are in the random voting stage is just the sort of reverse psychology trick that would appeal to Mastin. My random vote is now kinda serious. Saying stuff like this:

Eh, he could be, he might not be. [vig directing] (a huge scum tell) It might be a good idea to vig him to make sure, though. [/vig directing].

Doesn't really come off as a joke so much as it comes off like an actual blatant scum tell posing as a joke.

[Kublai Khan]

Mastin acting weird is a null tell. He's Mastin, dammit!

I've only played one game with Mastin before. The wall-o-text is expected, but the RVS activity is completely opposite what I know of him.

Reference: Newbie 742

[Kublai Khan]

At least Eight games.
Most of the ones where I've acted this way are ongoing, though. Ask...hmm...

Asking players to confirm your behavior in on-going games? Really, Mastin? You know better than that.

Anyways, I acknowledge that you are shifting your playstyle. No problem. I've done it from time to time. It's healthy. Prevents meta-gaming.

Oh, and replacing in on the second page is practically the same as being in the game from the beginning. But if you want to split hairs about it, then fine.

And don't worry, Khan. I won't kill ya.

Uh.. Are you claiming a killing role?

Khan's Miller claim doesn't move me. I'd still vote for him if he acts scummy because I was in a game not long ago where the [Death] Miller was of neutral alignment and would have won the game before the town if all of the mafia were eradicated. So, Millers are still suspects IMO.

Yeah, that's pretty much all there is to it. I could be a miller or I could be a member of the mafia. Either way I show up as guilty. So my claim was just to give investigators a heads up. Everyone who isn't an investigator should just continue judging me based on my actions.

I'm also headed to bed. Be kind and trim your walls-o-text down a bit Mastin. Nobody likes having to deal with replacements.

[Kublai Khan]

@Mastin: Series of questions:

Do you consider someone self-metaing as a defence to be scummy?
Would you consider someone defending you by saying "It's Mastin's meta" to be scummy?
Would you consider someone attacking you by saying "Mastin's meta is different" to be scummy?
Would you consider someone attacking you by saying "Mastin's playing to his scum meta" to be scummy?
If your answer isn't the same for all the above questions, give a reason why.

@Hayker (Re: 58): Saying "I think roflcopter is scummy, but he makes good points" is the epitome of wishy-washy fence-sitting.

therefore we are never, ever lynching kublai khan, and it doesn't even matter if i'm right and he's in fact town or i'm wrong and he's fakeclaiming scum because the problem will work itself out long before the endgame. continuing to waste time discussing whether or not you believe khan's claim, or especially considering him as a lynch candidate, will be viewed as scummy with extreme prejudice.

I <3 you, roflcopter. You actually know how to play this crazy mafia game. An unclaimed miller screws up cop investigations. A claimed miller helps cop calibrate their sanity, but it's essentially a death sentence. It's a shitty role, but that's all there is to it.

@Johnny Rotten: Waiting for public opinion to be on record before you vote is scummy.

@Empking's Alt: Why are you playing with your Alt and not the regular Empking account?

@Wickedestjr: You are a very cautious player.

@ZazieR: Regular miller as far as I know.
@ZazieR: Your observation that my serious vote sits wrong with you without explaining why is sitting wrong with me, but I can't explain why.

@Faraday: Quit stealing my points (Re: Hayker & Johnny Rotten) before I make them. I've got no thunder now...

@MafiaMann: Happy scumday. Why are you presuming another mafia faction made the kill and not a serial killer or a vig? You're jumping to far-reaching conclusions.

[Kublai Khan]

@Empking's Alt (112): Oh, okay.

@MafiaMann (116): Mastin listed you as a member of Mafia A and you weren't sure if he was completely joking? I took Mastin's opening post as a joke calling out and ribbing people he had a history and was familiar with. The fact that you aren't someone Mastin knows is now making me say hmmm.

Also: You're making some pretty reaching arguments which seem to betray a deeper knowledge of the game and it's setup than I've got. All I know is that there are 3 kills. Since the flavor is pretty minimal, the fact that the Cerulean Mafia has a name would strongly indicate that there are at least 2 mafia groups. The third kill could be a serial killer, a vigilante, or a third mafia group. The listed causes of death (Slaughtered/Murdered/Annihilated) give us no hints as to which group did what.

These are the bare basic facts. Your wild speculation about multiple mafia doctors is unhelpful and has been noted.

@ckool5000 (117): How do you know a mafioso did it? Are you lamenting the loss of Konowa? Why aren't you rejoicing that we have a lucky vig?

As for why specific people were killed, who knows? For all we know they could have just loaded the player list in the random.org list randomizer and went with the top pick. Speculating on Night 0 kill choices is nothing but a useless WIFOM venture. And MafiaMann & ckool5000 are both scummy for engaging in it.

And for Mod's sake, ckool5000, are you seriously following someone else's list of wiki scum & town tells while you're playing in a game with that same person? WTF?

[Kublai Khan]

@ckool5000: Aw, crap. You're right. I totally read the opposite of what you said and may have confused you with MafiaMann since you two were doing intertwining posts. My bad. Suspicion withdrawn.

Although I'll stick by my conviction that speculation on why certain Night 0 kills were chosen isn't helpful overall. And you shouldn't trust Mastin's tells.

@ZazieR: Way to look for convenient bandwagons to hop on.

[Kublai Khan]

Elaborate.

Using someone else's evidence to justify your vote. If it turns out to be wrong, it's the other guy's fault, not yours. Self-absolution is scummy.

As far as you know?! You claimed miller, shouldn''t you know if you''re a death miller or not in such situation?
And are you serious with the second point, or not?

My Role PM just says I'm a regular miller. I haven't checked iamausername's meta-mod to see if he's the type of mod to get creative with secret roles. So I'm a regular miller, as far as I know.

Semi-serious on the second point. Maybe. Vague accusations suck, don't they.

Because in the quote, especially the bolded, he shows that he knows it wasn''t the other scumteam. And that''s only possible if you''re part of it.
Therefore, scumslip.

It doesn't show crap. In context I was asking ckool5000 why he thought "scenario A" happened and not an alternative "Scenario B". I never said that "Scenario B" is what I thought happened.

FOS: ZazieR

@Mastin (169): Kise's comment definitely wasn't a breadcrumb and it read like a hardclaim. Kise is claiming it was an entrapment ploy, so there ya go.

I agree with you that it's odd that roflcopter didn't include me in the rolefishing accusation. But I guess it looks like roflcopter is serious about his desire to not lynch me.

1 Im not saying its all true by any means but there maybe some truth in that statement. It shouldnt be disregarded and ignored because it was mastin who said it. Im tired of everything is just mastin being mastin.

I don't think anyone ignored it because it was "Mastin being Mastin". I think it got mostly ignored because it was the first post in the game. But I did mention in post 33 that I thought Mastin was the type of person who would enjoy joking about how scummy he was when he actually was scum. He agreed with me in post 40.

2 Im not making reaching arguments i havent even really made many argument please quote what you are referring to because all i said was wouldnt make sense for the mafias to be symmetrical.

I was referring to your suggestion that there are mirror mafia groups. It's just a really random assumption to make. Unless, of course, you're also a Mafia Doctor. In which case it's a perfectly reasonable assumption.

FoS: Empking's Alt.
I post reasons later.

I hate stuff like this. Why was it so important to get in your FOS announced right away before you had time to post an actual reason? It's an FOS, not a vote. Why don't you just wait until you have time to post, then post both your FOS and your reason(s).

EBWOP: Reason given. Was so short he could have written it the first time. Active Lurker.

@Hayker: Stop making posts like 185 & 186. It's bad enough that ZazieR and Mastin post mostly nonsense posts. Don't emulate them.

@Mastin 187: Why aren't you taking my questions (about meta) seriously?

Only scum or bad town will put weight into my RVS comments.

Didn't you always brag about how you caught Kronos & jeffcole1 in Newbie 742 according to their RVS comments? IIRC, it's one of your "Insane Tells". How come you're asking to be judged differently?

@ckool5000 199: Huh?

[Kublai Khan]

@ckool5000 199: Huh?

I've always wanted to point out a "lol" scum-tell, even if it's not

that

big of a scum-tell.

I'm saying "Huh?" about this (bolded):

Actually, it's not THAT serious of a tell, I just really wanted to say that about someone's post... But that is something to point out, and adds a point to the

"Suspicion of Kublai Khan-o-meter".

I never say "lol". Are you confusing me with Kise or are Kise's actions somehow causing you to suspect me?

[Kublai Khan]

@fallen angel 213 - Good idea. I'll probably do my scumlist tonight. Interesting opening 24 hours to a game.

@Johnny Rotten 219 & 221 - There are so very few compelling reasons to policy lynch. Mastin hasn't come close to any of those reasons.

ORLY? Whose evidence did I use then? Because I'm positive that I only mentioned your quote in my post which had my vote included. So explain where I did so.

ckool5000.

Wow. Thanks for posting ckool.
Vote Kublai
Obv scumslip in the quote from him that ckool just posted. Will comment more when I get at that post.

Your vote is the direct result of piggy-backing someone else's evidence. Quit pretending like I'm making things up.

Obv scum lying about his role. Note that he claims that he wasn't sure if he was a regular miller or a death miller, yet didn't ask the mod what he was.

My Role PM says Emerald Miller. I assumed that if I was a death miller (or other miller variant), then iamausername would have told me. But if you insist, I'll double check with iamausername.

It shows a lot. But before I explain, which role do you think killed Konowa: SK, vig or a mafia role?

I don't know. However, I strongly doubt that it was the Cerulean Mafia.

[Kublai Khan]

Oh, just so everyone knows. During the work week I'll only be posting about 1-2 times a day (once in morning, once at night). Usually in the style of my few posts. Just giving a heads up in case anyone complains about a change in my posting habits.

[Kublai Khan]

@ckool5000 (252): The game may be 11 pages, but it's only 2 days old. They aren't lurking. They're catching up. You're engaging in fake scum-hunting.

It seems like poor practice to not PM the mod for clarification on what type of miller you are.

Please do so now.

I'm a regular Emerald Miller. I show up as scum on Investigations, but will be revealed as town after death.

Mind explaining how your role, flavor-wise, would fit into this game?

I don't understand the question. The flavor is that the role is called "Emerald Miller". I guess it fits into the game because it makes sense for an Emerald Miller to live in Emerald City. (This is a pretty dumb question. Am I missing something special?)

Your words, were, essentially, "why didn't you consider the possibility that we have a really lucky vig?"

There are many possible scenarios.
You called him out for assuming one, and then seemed to assume a scenario yourself.
When other options clearly exist.
This is what needs explaining.

Dude, I wasn't going to waste my time listing every possible alternative scenario and sequentially ask why he didn't pick each one. I picked the most radically extreme opposite example from his assumption and went with that.

"why didn't you consider the possibility that we have a really lucky vig?" does not equal "I think we had a lucky vig, how about you?" no matter how hard you try to twist my words.

Eh, remind me what your questions were, again?

I asked 4 questions about metaing. You put smileys on half the answers, so I assume you were giving joking sarcastic answers, then you refused to explain yourself. You've mentioned several times that you're no longer joking around and that you're scum-hunting, but it still feels like you're not taking the game seriously.

...Because I'm different from most players.
Why else?
Are you really surprised by this very true response?
Really, I'm different. Most things like that don't apply to me.

Hypocrisy is kinda a big scum-tell. Your posting style may be unique, but you're just as human as the rest of us. And being human means that you commit tells as scum.

[Kublai Khan]

1. Why didn't you immediately say you were an Emerald Miller?
You initially said just Miller.

2. Revealed as a townie, or a miller?

3. It had a purpose, involving how much flavor text you're given in your PM. (Like why you're a miller, why you came to Emerald City, etc. Standard Flavor stuff.)

1. I don't see the difference between the two.
2. As a miller who is town.
3. PM had nothing along those lines. Just the role, a definition of the role, and win condition.

1.But, again, why did you only list one? Why not at least two? Sure, you don't have to do all (although I find that to be helpful), but that doesn't mean you should only do just one...

2. Can you understand the interpretation of your post, now?

1. I dunno, laziness? I thought I was getting my point across with one example.
2. Yeah, I guess. It never occurred to me that people would interpret it that way. In retrospect I probably should have included more examples in order to be clear in regards to the intention of my question.

1. [Re: 4 questions about meta] Hmm...Want me to go digging for them again?
2. Smileys do not always equal a not-serious answer. Normally, yes, but if you want to make sure, just ask; I'll answer serious, semi-serious, or a joke.
3. People using my RVS comments are scummy because I am ME--I am KNOWN to do this regardless of alignment, making it a null tell.
4. The pro-town response is to ignore my RVS posts
5. I'm different.
Rules such as that RVS one that is part of one of my MITs don't apply to me.

1. Yes.
2. If I can state a preference, I prefer that all answers to my questions (at the very least) be serious.
3. In our last game you used Craplogic to try to push a case against me. It turned out to be legit because of the whole cop investigation thing, but am I now supposed to consider it a cop-tell whenever you use Craplogic to push a case against someone?
4. Stuff like this sounds more and more scummy everytime I read it. It's like you think Jedi Mind Tricks^TM are real.
5. *facepalm* (Double-facepalm if you actually expect me to buy that.)

1. See post 140. Back then, I hadn''t seen that post of yours in which you slipped up. But due to a simulpost of me and ckool, I saw the part in which you slipped up.
Also, note that ckool didn''t mention anything about a slip-up.
So explain how I''m using his evidence.
2. Great answer Rolling Eyes So of four possible killing roles/groups you strongly doubt that the Cerulean mafia killed one of their own.
Can you now tell which of the possible three remaining killing roles/groups would have most likely killed Konowa?

1. Why reference ckool5000 at all then? Why didn't you scroll back 4 posts (from 137 to 133) and quote me directly? Buddying?
2. WTF? No, I'm not even going to venture a guess. You've already proven that you'll take anything I say and twist it so that you make me look scummy. That is a loaded question with no right answer designed to entrap anyone dumb enough to answer it.

How come you had doubts about being a death miller with that as flavour?

Bad memory or selective revisionism?

My Role PM just says I'm a regular miller. I haven't checked iamausername's meta-mod to see if he's the type of mod to get creative with secret roles. So I'm a regular miller, as far as I know.

Look, I've been playing IRC mafia and Xyl's bot has a ton of crazy stuff programmed into it. Including secret and misdirecting roles. So I was/am paranoid. Notice that my claim included a warning about sanity checks for investigative roles and my early banter with Mastin includes stuff about the ircmafia bot.

I'm sorry for creating this whole situation. My paranoia caused by late night ircmafia playing made me unneccessarily worry about wild unlikely situations.

@Achilles (311): Why did you only focus on those who have votes?

@Wickedestjr (323): Redith posted his 'reason' in post 205. As for why I don't like things like that, it's a scum-tell. If he had voted without while promising reasons later, then it creates pressure on whomever was voted and you can gauge the reaction of everyone else. But a FOS is just... nothing. It's a meaningless post and he followed it up with anothing meaningless post. He's active lurking.

He {Hayker} notes down that Kublai's behaviour is different, but at the same time gives a possible reason.

Crap, I missed that somehow. For the record, I've never played with Hayker before.

@Hayker: When did you become an authority on my behavior? Are you an Alt?

[Kublai Khan]

@ZazieR (339 & 340): I just discovered ircmafia not to long ago. I use the same nick as here. Alexhans can vouch for teaching me the ropes there, including showing me how to look at test setups and such. Xyl's bot seems to like to use stuff like Secret Role, Amnesiac, etc. I had just gotten done playing a bunch of games on Saturday before the game opened, so Sunday all that stuff was still on my mind. Was really stupid of me to bring it up as this isn't a Bastard Mod game and iamausername is unlikely to use such wild roles. I'm on at various times (usually in the evening, but most of the night nothing seems to be happening).

"Selective revisionism" is redundant I guess. Revisionism was the accusation I laid upon you (for asking a question I already gave an answer to in my post 207).

I saw Zazie comment on this quote as well, but unfortunately I could not find where the actual post was. But anyway, I don't really like this comment. First of all: Hayker didn't make post 186, so your only real evidence for this complaint is post 185 unless you made a mistake and can identify the real post you were talking about. Second of all: It has already been discussed that Mastin and Zaz have been contributing to the scum hunting. While they may post a lot of nonsense, I find that a majority of the content in their posts is helping the game roll along. Third of all: What do you find to be nonsense in Hayker's posts?

What? I think you may be looking at the wrong posts. There are the two pointless posts that I was referring to:

Okay so I'm all caught up on things that address me. I'll post some opinions on some stuff about things with some nouns.

Okay so I'm all caught up on things that address me. I'll post some opinions on some stuff about things with some nouns. Not even sure why I clicked post there.

I'll post some stuff in a bit, my mom is yelling at me to do some yard work so see you guys in a bit(with like 5 more pages to read I bet)

And my main annoyance with Mastin & ZazieR (more Mastin than ZazieR, actually) is that they could stand to trim a lot of the fat and gristle away from their posts instead of hiding the meat. I don't think that their posting styles are scummy, they are just kinda annoying.

@ZazieR (342): 1. When previewing a post, the Topic Review box allows you to scroll up to 25 (or so) of the previously made comments. You could have easily see ckool5000's entire post before posting.

2. You can answer the question if you want. And the bolded I wrote because you took my question to ckool5000 and labelled it a "scumslip" when it absolutely wasn't.

@Achilles (351): So you only suspect people that have already been voted/suspected by others?

@Post 354: Holy crap Hayker is scummy. I'll parse this out later.

@Empking's Alt (371): WTF is this about? Empking's Alt seriously needs to post some frigging content.

[Kublai Khan]

@curiouskarmadog: Welcome. Looking forward to your posts.

@Achilles (408): Ok, fair enough.

A miller is a generic term--
Emerald Miller is a term meant specifically for this game.

Splitting hairs.

It sounds to me like you claimed Miller,
Then later were forced to add onto the claim and say Emerald Miller when called out on it.

It sounds like you're choosing to have a narrow view on the situation. Your accusation doesn't even make sense as a scum-tell

1: THE ABSOLUTE MINIMUM LIST OF SCUMTELLS THAT DO NOT APPLY TO MASTIN:

Are you being dense on purpose? Do you honestly think I'll ignore scummy activity from you just because you say it's doesn't apply? Do you not even realize how incredibly super-scummy it is to even ask me to do that?

Look, face it, by MANY players' admitions, I'm not normal.
It stands to reason that scum tells don't apply to me in a normal way, as well.

You're so scum in this game, Mastin.

@Redith: I thinking you're skimming. Reply to this to prove you aren't.

Also, what did the mod say about your question you said you''d ask him?

He re-sent my role PM.

I asked who you thought killed Konowa. You said that you think that the Cerulean mafia didn''t kill him. But for other killing roles, you didn''t know.
Yet, in the quote of which I accuse you slip, you''re stating that a vig did it without adding a word that can show a sign of possibility, aka ''can'', ''possibly'', etc.
Yet, you even considered that the third kill could have been from a third scum team. So for somebody who states that he doesn''t know, you''re very certain that a vig did it. And that''s only possible in one way as I''ve already said.

You're totally barking up the wrong tree. As I said before: I asked ckool5000 why he thought "Scenario A" happened and not "Scenario B".

Your accusation of me making a scum-slip doesn't even make sense anyways. There are obviously three killing roles. If I was a non-vig killing role, then how would I

know

it was the vig and not the other killer? And if I were the vig, then why would I claim miller?

@curiouskarmadog (441): I can meta-confirm that Mastin makes huge walls-o-text in general.

@Lowell (472): Hey! Welcome to the game. Good to play with you again. Why isn't Empking's Alt on your list of scummy players?

[Kublai Khan]

Also, what did the mod say about your question you said you''d ask him?

He re-sent my role PM.

What question did you ask him?

I asked if he could clarify what kind of miller I was (i.e. do I turn up as scum upon death in addition to showing up scum in investigations).

Also, how come you didn''t have anything to say about the points I brought up against your IRC ''paranoia'' and your argument against me regarding ckool''s post?

Because you're not even bothering to ask questions anymore. You're just insisting on the scummiest possible explanation of events to try to frame me. I could state that I liked water and you'd counter that I was anti-Town because towns aren't built in water.

If you were asking probing questions in good faith, then I'd answer. But I gain nothing by aiding you conjure up scummy artifical realities.

@Redith (559): Okay, just checking.

[Kublai Khan]

Can you please explain your post ckool? I don't understand what you are saying

Translation: "ZazieR is doing a bang-up job framing Kublai, but when I think about it logically, there's no way he's actually scum."

[Kublai Khan]

Then address finally my accusations against you.

Ok. Your accusations are wrong.

I've seen two scum claim miller in previous games:
here and here

So if it happened in another game, it

must

be happening here. That's about as convincing as the corollary: "If it never happened in another Mafia game before, then there's no chance of it happening here".

How many games that had actual millers should I link you to? How about this one? It had 3 legit miller claims AND a legit death miller.

ZazieR is the queen of bullshit and bad arguments.

[Kublai Khan]

That's not what I said at all. Ckool said that it seems more likely that scum would claim death miller, instead of miller. I show him two games in which scum did claim miller.
You are twisting my words and you're not addressing your case as you are caught scum.

Really? Your argument is that it happened somewhere before, so it must be happening again. Do I really have to pull out a sac of links showing Millers claiming Miller, or will you agree that you've made a stupid argument and move on?

I still think Khan is mega suspicious for not saying Emerald Miller before the storm swept through. Makes me think he later came up with something to get people off his back and look townie/Emeraldie..

Seriously? Currently, I don't see how it would have made a difference. Certain elements of the game (ZazieR/Mastin/ckool5000) have insisted that I'm scum regardless of what I actually say.

This would be my first game with him in which I am active, and Rofl won''t let this moment go away! How can you say something like this about him?!

Yeah, "active" is the under-statement of the century. Out of the 615 posts in this game so far, you've made 175. That's ~28% of the game. Keep in mind that you are only ~5% of the active game population. If that doesn't seriously suggest that you're trying to railroad the town's opinion against me (despite the fact that nobody really buying into your crap), then I don't know what does.

Fos: ZazieR

[Kublai Khan]

Are you saying here that I''m scummy for posting much?
It seems somebody is out of arguments and is now reaching.

Reading comprehension. Try it. I'm saying that you're attempting to steer the game towards a paticular target, logic be damned.

...

Are you a Lyncher by any chance?

The JR wagon is useless when there is no JR. I was voting him to get him to talk more but with him gone there is no reason for this. I'm going to Unvote. Vote: Kublai Khan. KK responses to Zaz's questioning make's this an easy decision. Why would a resent PM clarify his role if he already had it?
Kublai Khan wrote:
My Role PM says Emerald Miller. I assumed that if I was a death miller (or other miller variant), then iamausername would have told me. But if you insist, I'll double check with iamausername.

The first quote shows that KK already had the PM, the second shows that the answer to the question(will I turn up as scum at death?) was already in the role PM. If this was true then there would have been no need to ask for more information.

WTF? Look. I got a role PM of miller. (Sorry, EMERALD MILLER). It didn't list anything beyond the basic definition of what a miller was. ZazieR and Mastin jumped on and demanded more information than I had ("What kind of Miller?!"). So I PMed iamausername to ask for more detail and in his inscrutable wisdom he re-sent the PM I had already gotten. Presumably this means that whatever information I am to know is all that I can and will be given. The PM says nothing about death millership, so I interpret iamausername's response to be "No, don't worry about it".

Of course that hasn't stopped ZazieR and Mastin from screaming "scumslip!" loudly and often in some sort of bizarre belief that repitition creates truth. (Note: Politicians and Pundits do the same thing.) Trying to create an artificial reality is a scum-tell.

I mean, if Khan was town-ish, cops wouldn't really investigate him, but he's acting pretty scummy in some people's eyes... But they probably got interested at looking closer at his posts because he claimed, so I can't be too sure of anything right now...

You're currently voting for me, ckool5000. Are you only voting for me because I'm scummy in other people's eyes?

I just found something in a thread from another old game. Somebody (a mafia) was posting their mafia talk in the night and what was going through their heads during the day, and one of the things going through their head was:
"Don't pull a Kublai Khan and freak out about the fact that you're confirmed scum in the eyes of two players"

Eh? Link?

I'm calling it as I see it--you claimed Miller, and then changed it to Emerald Miller.
Can you see the point?

How is that a change? First, let's start with basic common sense. There's no such thing as a SK-Miller because that would be retarded. I've seen a Mafia-Miller (aka reverse-death-miller, aka innocent conspirator) before.. But it would be retarded for that role to claim as a normal miller, so that's out.

So all that's left is townie (or Emerald) miller. Unless Mastin is trying to claim that there are multiple townie factions or independent survivors in this game. In which case his insistence that there is a difference between "miller" and "Emerald Miller" implies that he has a greater knowledge of the game setup than I do. As such, I believe it's a slip on Mastin's part. A scummy slip.

Yes it does.
Inconsistency is a scum tell.
You claimed miller. No specifics. Just Miller.
Then you claimed Emerald Miller, after you were called out for it.

There's an inconsistency, there.
Can you see it?
I sure can.

It's not inconsistent unless you can prove that there is potential for "non-Emerald" Millers.

When given evidence to support that it doesn't apply, sure, I believe you should ignore "scummy activity" from me, because it's not scummy activity, but rather, just my natural play.

Are you kidding me? Why the fuck aren't people voting for Mastin???

Am I literally the only one that sees this as scummy?

Preview Edit: New posts have been made since I started writing this. This is a note to remind myself to look them over later.

[Kublai Khan]

@Mastin: Re: French
I speak French. I can verify that the French abbreviate "Monsieur" (pronounced "Messieu") as M. Link

Trying to fight the Mastin wall-o-text posts..

1: Rolefishing. (I don't care if it's an anti-town role; it's not a scum role, hence, not true scum hunting.)
2: This seems to contradict with what you said earlier--didn't you mention knowing what type of Miller you were?
3: You show far too many inconsistencies for me to believe your claim. You stance of certain things are scummy, and you've shown inconsistencies/hypocrisy/scum tells from things not even related to your miller claim.
4: Eh, probably referring to your play in 742. There was a noticeable difference in play between the pre-cop and post-cop claim, panicking under the realization that there was a guilty on you.
5: Failure to even specify the Emerald part is a scum tell, because you're forgetting a VERY KEY DETAIL of your role PM.

Let me put it this way:
Compare these two claims:
"I'm a roleblocker. I blocked XX night zero, because he said he'd kill me if he got a killing role."
"I'm an Emerald Roleblocker. I blocked XX night zero, because he said he'd kill me if he got a killing role."

Which of those two looks more legit?

Definitely the latter, to me.
6: Eh, by default, I like to think of Serial Killers as showing up as innocent to cops. Blame EM.
7: Look, there are multiple reasons scum could fail to specify Emerald.
8: If you're mafia, you wouldn't even THINK to add the Emerald phrase to WHATEVER you claim, be it Miller, Vig, your actual mafia role, etc.
9: If I give evidence to support that my supposed "scummy activity" is really just a null tell from me, then it's no longer a scum tell, and can be ignored, because it's my natural playstyle, a null tell, and not a scum tell.
10: Yes. You are; there's nothing to see in me stating a simple metagaming fact.
11: NOBODY has ever gotten away from an accusation on me without later regretting it.

1: *facepalm* No True Scotsman fallacy.
2: I said I was a miller. You guys were the ones fishing for more information and blew every perceived inconsistency out of proportion.
3: C'mon! Be vaguer! You can do it! Say I smell like scum! Invoke gut!
4: Don't answer for ckool5000. I have a right to know who is talking shit about me.
5: There's a major problem with your comparison, Mastin. It's entirely possible for there to be both MAFIA ROLEBLOCKERS and TOWN ROLEBLOCKERS. That's a distinction that DOESN'T EXIST with the role of Miller (Note: you've already admitted this).
6: No smiley face. Is this comment serious? Do you really think SKs work that way?
7: Like what?
8: That is some pretty insulting WIFOM reasoning. Also, see #5. Miller isn't a role that has multiple possible alignments. Miller only has ONE potential alignment. Quit relying on different roles (with different rules) to make your point.
9: Sure, why not. Nothing says "Pro-Town" like massive uncorroborated self-metaing circular arguments that are steeped heavily in forced denial.
You're like the Baghdad Bob of this game. "The scumminess of my play has been vastly overreported! Kublai Khan will be surrendering to my mighty arguments any moment now!"
10: Gosh, It's totally inconceivable for a player to commit scum-tells intentionally in other games as town so that they can play more unnoticed as scum.
11: Threatening the town. With the very same post style you claim is benign.

@SerialClergyMan (723 & 724): First off, welcome to the game!

Second, how do you figure that Mastin's repeated insistence of how pro-town (or null) he is not to be a scum-tell?

Third, I agree with you on Achilles. He's on my "Top 5 potential scum" list at the moment.

@Wickedestjr (725): Why? (second part)

@VP Baltar (746): Wow. You just made my rebuttal seem paltry in comparison.

@Nattam (762): I've already answered your case against me here, which you've never responded to or acknowledged. Also, do me a favor and respond to roflcopter's post 59 (reposted as 758).

I'm starting to get pretty certain that those pushing for my lynch are doing so because they don't want to be the ones to waste their NK on me.

@Lowell (763 & 764): Why are you making stupid jokes?

[Kublai Khan]

Oh, fucking hell. I'm so close to throwing in the towel and asking for replacement because of Mastin's posts.

The parsing of every sentence clause was bad, the endless repetition of the same points over and over

within the same post

is worse, but now the super-condescending

LARGE TEXT

he's added is beyond asinine. It feels like his ego is so big he thinks he has to talk louder and slower for the rest of us simpletons to understand his massive genius.

He is literally sucking the fun out of this game and making it a chore.

Look at this:

Once a person attacks me, and attacks me hard, there's no going back on it. They look bad for continuing. They look worse for stopping. I push for their lynch, even when they stop pushing for mine, so they have no choice but to push my lynch as scum, because if they don't, instead of getting lynched the next day, they get lynched THAT day.

The above paragraph doesn't describe scum-hunting.. it describes a strategy of OMGUS. Mastin is doing the following:
A) Admitting that he doesn't really care about alignments, he is all about personal vendettas and trying to get people lynched for the sole 'crime' of suspecting him.
B) Admits that he will make-up scum-tells as part of his "ends justify the means" mentality.
C) Bullying townies by threatening to eat away at their free time by forcing them to either respond to huge amounts of trumped-up charges or else look bad and get lynched.
D) Presenting himself and his playstyle as exclusively pro-town. There is no null version of this type of strategy, so he presents his tactics as working well against scum, but doesn't include the fallout of what happens when a townie attacks him. If the person he is revenge-attacking is town and backs off, then he will continue to push for a town-lynch. If the person he is revenge-attacking is town and doesn't back off, then he will do whatever he can to smear the person to that they get lynched the next day.

Bottom line is that anybody can smear anyone else. But Mastin's game of "I'm going to smear anyone that attacks me and take them down with me" isn't scum-hunting, it's scummy OMGUS. It's unforgivable anti-town behavior.

I'm not normally a policy lynch kinda guy... But what exactly is the point of keeping Mastin around? He's basically insisting that all he wants to do is piss people off so that he can go toe-to-toe with and try to get them lynched by hook or by crook. There's no conceivable way that his strategy would exclusively target scum.

If Mastin isn't scum, then he's a troll.

But since he's gleefully staying within the mod's rules, then we have no choice but to lynch him

[Kublai Khan]

Like a bad day job, I drag myself out of bed and continue to respond to Mastin.

Throwing in the towel-->Giving up-->Admitting you're scum.
Scumslip.

Evidence that Mastin's "scum-hunting" is more smear campaigning than reality. Taking 4 words out of context and labelling them as scummy doesn't make it true.. It's like yellow journalism.

Duh. I've nailed the scum already. And people aren't listening. So, yes, I am going to talk louder (read: large sized font, bolds, italicized, underlined, caps lock) to get the point across.

What's the problem with that?

The problem is that Mastin is brow-beating and badgering people into accepting his point of view. They are tools of intimidation and bullying.

Okay, this is a joke. A seriously bad joke. Khan, understandable; he's scum. Same with VP. Rofl's rofl. Mafia's likely scum, as is Mufasa, and Lowell's with VP and Khan. Wicked shouldn't be on there, as I have plenty of pressure on me already,
But...

Still, that bandwagon's size is alarming.
I can guarantee you that it's mostly scum driven.

Evidence that Mastin's "scum-hunting" is literally just OMGUS.

This is the opposite of the truth, Khan.
I've been presenting my playstyle as a coin. Both pro-town AND ANTI-TOWN AS WELL.

I've been presenting myself, from my actions, as a NULL TELL. Because I'd do this regardless of alignment.

This (and there are many examples of this) is what's known as a Bare Assertion Fallacy. The fallacy is summarized as follows:

• Fact 1: X claims statement A.
  
• Fact 2: X claims that X is not lying.
  
• Conclusion: Therefore, A is true.

This is bad logic. And for the most part it's been the ONLY logic that Mastin has used to defend himself. When someone questions him on it, Mastin resorts to simply repeating himself (and the aforementioned brow-beating) until people stop questioning him (Another fallacious way of arguing: Argument ad nauseam)

The thing is, pro-town players will not attack me in the ways that you and VP have.

It IS my fault for failing to specify the fact that only scum would attack me that hard in that quote. I had done it in previous examples, but forgot to do it this time.

This is a variation on the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. Given the fact that most of his arguments are of a fallacious nature, it's surprising that he would insist that only scum would attack him hard. If Mastin is town, I find it much more likely that scum would either not engage him at all, or try to buddy up to him (such as agreements of "Mastin is always like that"). So that they can be unnoticed while other townies go toe-to-toe with Mastin over his bad self-metaing logical fallacies.

Of course, if Mastin is scum, his strategy would be to try to smear as many of the powerhouse townies as he could. So that remains a strong possibility.

Oh, a role claim. I'll deal with that in a separate post.

[Kublai Khan]

I am an Emerald Roleblocker. I blocked Kublai Khan Night Zero, because he said he'd kill me if he got a killing role in the pre-game. Best random choice I could think of.

A vig, a serial killer, and two mafia factions. With one of their kills failing last night. Specifically, I think Khan submitted the kill, and when he failed, he panicked and claimed miller.

Let me get this straight: I joked about killing you in the pre-game thread (i.e. no roles yet), so you decide to roleblock me. When the day started, you saw two things: (1) that you weren't dead, and (2) that I was claiming miller.

So you leap to the conclusion that (A) I ended up with a killing role and (B) there should have been 4 kills. Since you're still alive then (C) you successfully blocked me from killing you. So (D) I panicked and (E) claimed miller as a result of panicking. Oh, and {after reading Mastin's 825} (F) I'm a newbscum idiot who thinks that I can ride a fakemiller claim to victory.

And ignored the much, much more probable scenario that there are 3 killing roles and you blocked a miller.

THAT is one of my main reasons for suspecting Khan, above all else.

So you admit that your whole case against me was based on having a faulty conclusion first, then smearing the facts to fit the conclusion.

Thank you for clearing me, Mastin. I was worried that fools actually believed you.

Welcome to Mastin's layer. He's a serial-killer-lyncher-jester-member-of-a-four-man-mason-

roleblocker

-tracker-watcher group.

I always have to do this absurd claim some time in a game. It's just too fun not to do.

Eh.. Sounds like your breadcrumbs were pretty damn broad at the beginning of the game (allowing for a variety of fakeclaims), then towards the middle of the game you got more specific. If it was the other way around, I'd be more likely to believe it.

Plus you breadcrumbed hard. Like a giddy scum wanting to get caught so that he can claim as soon as possible. Someone more town would make 1 breadcrumb early then never mention it again.

But because of the miller claim after I blocked him, I had serious doubts.

There's no denying that I am a Roleblocker, VP.
But you can't doubt that I did block Khan, because there's an overwhelming amount of evidence to prove this to be the case.

There's no evidence, Mastin. I can't confirm that I was blocked because I have no night action that can be blocked. The mod did not send me a notification saying that I was blocked. NOTHING CONFIRMS YOUR STORY.

I realize the bandwagon is dead, but Mastin still has a bunch to answer for and it would be super-fantastic if he posted in a manner that would make me want to actually read his reply. (i.e. short and to the point)

However I agree that MafiaMann's last 3 posts were extremely suspicious and that he needs to explain himself a bit more.

FOS: MafiaMann

[Kublai Khan]

interesting how a claim and some "breadcrumbs" can stop a wagon. everyone was so hell bent on lynching mastin, but he says he is a RB (which i find is a easy mafia claim to claim)...also everyone seems to overlook the fact that he could have easily planned that claim well before the day started. Hell Kublai's interaction with him might have helped him craft that claim....not buying and I think the claim and his explanation of it is shaky at best....

No doubt. I took some time to read some of his posts in isolation. Remember his "I'm a serial-killer-lyncher-jester-member-of-a-four-man-mason-roleblocker-tracker-watcher group." comment that supposedly setup his roleblocker claim? Well, I don't see any other breadcrumbs about being a roleblocker until iso49 (3 mentions) and iso52 (4 separate mentions).

Previously, it looks like he might have been setting up for a fakeclaim of watcher. Check it out:

Yea, that's generally my plan. [Khan]'s someone to keep an eye on. I'll be looking very carefully at his town meta, review his scum meta, and play this entire game for...well, the duration of this game. If he ends up being scummy, my random vote which I took off will become a serious vote.

Again, I agree. They're the claim to at least keep an eye on. (Quite personally [although this opinion is influenced heavily by epicmafia], I believe in not letting Millers know they are millers in semi-open setups.) It's the perfect scum claim, which is why I will be keeping an eye on Khan.

Which is why I will keep an eye on Khan.

It's not like I'm advocating for his lynch. I'm stating how I will keep my eye on him, and how he's a suspect of mine.

I'm keeping an eye on Khan. He's never going to leave my suspicion list because of this.

Which is why Khan has my eye.

RVS Shenanigans. I will keep an eye on Khan, but his claim isn't a scum tell. (Doesn't mean it's a town tell, though.)

Khan was my RVS vote.
In reality, he's worthy of keeping an eye on,

Khan's worthy of keeping an eye on. Not worthy of keeping a vote on.

Oh, I don't think we should waste time debating it--I think we should, however, keep an eye on Khan for it.

Then nothing after iso25. Plus he also made many other various references to "eyes" early-to-mid game that haven't continued throughout the game.

My conclusion is that he's fake-claiming. He setup a broad breadcrumb, narrowed it to watcher for awhile before switching at the last minute to roleblocker. He also may have tried to breadcrumb tracker, but I didn't see anything to that effect. Unless Mastin can point out any breadcrumbs pre-iso49 that I missed, then he's scum.

okay haha I've looked through this game, and we are moving at a snails pace, never have I ever had to go all the way till a deadline to get a lynch. I have to say Mastins breadcrumming is good, but I just can't count him out yet. I'd get rid of him for just posting page long posts, haha if I could. I don't think Mafia will take care of mastin during the night either. I really think we should lynch him sooner than later, but I like the case on Mafiamann as well.

Hmm.. Bored and bloodthirsty. Signs of being a Serial Killer.

if you've ever played a game with me your should know that pressuring me is a waste of time.

This is never a pro-town comment.

Kublai already claimed. He wanted to claim. In this case, it''s not role-fishing.

He was fishing for flavor, which is part of a role, which is why it's called rolefishing.

Not really.

Yes really. What purpose is there for Mastin to check to see if my role explained "where I came from, how I got to Emerald City", except to check if he needs to craft his fakeclaim accordingly?

[Kublai Khan]

@molestargazer: Welcome!

@Kmd4390: Hey, good to see you again!

@ckool5000 (903): None of curiouskarmadog's questions are hostile. Why are you so defensive to perfectly reasonable questions?

@Kmd4390 (928): Why townie read on Achilles? IIRC all he had done at that point was comment exclusively on previously voted people.

STRONGLY disagree with this generalization. It may be true for some players, but there are several players, including myself, who are the exact opposite and contribute MORE as scum than as town.

Heh. Y'know, you are contributing way more to this game then the last game I played with you, and you were town in that game..

As for Mastin. At this point in time I believe him. I think I'm starting to understand why he does what he does. And if I'm right, he's rather clever. He seems to make a decent case on KK, but I'm unwiling to go after KK right now. I think both should be left alive for the time being.

Uh huh. Could you reiterate Mastin's case on me in your own words?

@Mastin (983): Catch up, but no walls of text please. There's about 4 days left until the deadline and according to iamausername's rulelist, if we have no majority then there is no lynch. Since the town has pretty much decided to leave us two to the mercy of the night-killers, we both need to focus our attention elsewhere.

unvote

[Kublai Khan]

Khan, that game is ongoing. I'll gladly talk about it when it ends.

I know. Was more of a joke than an honest observation.

On Achilles, it was something in the post you mention where he gave his reads. Sounded genuine to me for some reason.

You're not concerned that he limited his choices to only those with votes? At the time it read like he was at a bandwagon buffet. I thought (and still think) that it reeks a little of signaling.

[Kublai Khan]

My conclusion is that he's fake-claiming. He setup a broad breadcrumb, narrowed it to watcher for awhile before switching at the last minute to roleblocker.

If this is true, why would he switch his carefully setup fakeclaim from watcher to roleblocker at the last minute?

I don't know. Something must have happened between iso26 and iso49 to make Mastin change his mind. Of course, that covers a fairly large portion of the game. I asked Mastin to identity any RB breadcrumbs he made previous to iso49 (not counting the super broad ones). But Mastin has yet to respond.

Actually, Mastin hasn't posted any meaningful content since making his claim. He's said nothing but "got plenty of time to post", "Oops, been busy", and "catching up on next 8 pages". I'm thinking that he's clearly stalling on answering questions about his claim. Not really pro-town behavior.

Also not pro-town behavior is MafiaMann dragging his heels on claiming a role. It's not a good idea to wait until the last minute. Add me to the list of posters who rather hammer an unclaimed MafiaMann then to have a no lynch.

[Kublai Khan]

[sarcasm]Oh noes! My fourth kill didn't go through again![/sarcasm]

Mastin, do you have condensed response to anything that was said post-claim?

Oh, and welcome to the game, Xylthixlm!

[Kublai Khan]

KK - no reaction to Zazie's death? The single person who pushed for your death more than any other dies? Perhaps you aren't surprised? Just becuase you specifically were blocked (if you were) doesn't mean if you're scum you couldn't have your buddies kill her.

Eh, I had some doubts towards the end of the day. My gut was saying she's scum, but my mind was saying "woah, too obvious". Guess I shoud listen to my gut.

Oh, and learn the meaning of the word "sarcasm". I have no idea if I was blocked or not. I have no night action to block.

I think SC is right that we need to look at the people who agreed with her very readily, particularly those who may have later changed positions when it became unpopular to go after KK's lynch.

Mastin, Empking's Alt, Namttam for the most part. ckool5000 to a lesser degree.

@Empking's Alt: How about answering any and all questions thrown your way during Day 1? I can't believe we let you get away with so much active lurking.

[Kublai Khan]

unvote, vote hayker

Uh, what? What are bandwagonning for? To add pressure? Are you really curious as to how Hayker will answer to the air-tight cases of rofl "I'm not really keeping up with this game" copter and Xyl "voting for whatever roflcopter said until I catch up" thixlm?

Lowell isn't scum-hunting. He's just going with the flow.

vote: Lowell

[Kublai Khan]

Want more proof Khan is scum?
This quote.
He KNOWS that I breadcrumb hard as town.
See 742.

So, did he forget a very vital part of my meta?
Don't think so; he's scum.

Dude, 742 was months ago. All I remember from that game was that I replaced in for a guy that you had a guilty result on and you made up the most fantastical BS scum-tells to try to get me lynched without claiming. You failed.

'Cept my breadcrumbs, the fact I think that a kill was stopped, and the fact that I never lie even as scum except about alignment (and in Newbie Games, role. However, anywhere else, I'll tell the truth about my role), and that when I claim, I'm truthful about my role. Really, people figure this stuff about me over time:
I never claim a role that I am not, even as scum (with Newbie Games as an exception).

Okay, so you're a Mafia Roleblocker, then. Thanks for being so honest and truthful. Though I continue to have no idea why you think anyone should trust a single word you say.

unvote Vote: Mastin

@Lowell: What a strange response from you. I'm starting to be pretty sure that you're scum, but I'm much more sure of Mastin atm.

[Kublai Khan]

Adherence to meta-prisons is such a stupid reason to suspect people.

I agree with some of Kmd4390's reasons for suspecting roflcopter, and he(roflcopter) should be pressured at some point today to offer better analysis.

But right now Mastin is the scummiest.

[Kublai Khan]

Okay, we're not really getting anywhere with multiple half-ass bandwagons that aren't causing a lick of pressure. We need to work together.

Now, Mastin has already claimed and I think that there are several problems with his claim. Mastin has not addressed anything. He still hasn't even addressed the initial skepticism of claim made back on Day 1.

So at this point we can wait until he gets caught up, or tire of his stalling and lynch him. Deadline isn't for 2 weeks, so I think we can afford putting him on the backburner for now and try to focus on some other targets.

Now, we're also waiting for several other people to get caught up. Achilles, ckool5000, Empking's Alt have all posted only a single post since Day 2 started a week ago. C'mon people. Kmd4390 read something like 40 pages in a single afternoon and you guys can't find a single afternoon to read like 5-6 pages? The non-input is looking scummier and scummier.

This is especially true for ckool5000. There's a good case built up on him and I really think he's avoiding having to answer for it, and he's hoping that attention will shift to someone else.

So at this point I'm switching bandwagons to ckool5000 and I'm imploring the Mastin wagon to follow my lead. Nobody is going to respond to the piddly 3-4 votes we're giving people with 9 to lynch. Let's get this game going in a positive direction by forcing ckool5000 to post by putting 7-8 votes on him.

unvote
Vote: ckool5000

[Kublai Khan]

I'm really doubting that Empking's Alt is even reading this game.

[Kublai Khan]

A claim? You want a claim? Here it is:

(Serious) Claim: The Vigilante that killed Konowa Night 0.

Damnit, ckool5000.. You're just so... Well, so damn earnest that I actually believe you.

unvote

ckool: if mastin flips scum you should kill kmd tonight, if he flips town you should kill me

Works for me even at the risk that Mastin actually is scum. It's just one more way that my top suspect can be eliminated.

What? This is like some weird game of mafia chicken.

I find Mastin, Empking's Alt, Hayker, and Kublai Kahn scummy, in that order.

Why am I on your scum list again?

Kublai Khan- 39 posts= 2.96% of all posts in this thread

Uh, go re-read post 249. I don't play like ZazieR, Mastin, Wicked, or you.

Yea, yea, was V/LA; just now got back. It's going to take time to catch up.

Please read, then comment in paragraph form. Don't comment on everything as you go.

[Kublai Khan]

- There's barely any reasons to respond to.

This bandwagon has been formed because of one claim and an offer to NK someone. Everyone, with Clergyman as a possible exception, has lept onto this bandwagon without giving a single jot of reasoning for why they think he's scum, or without even summarising a previous case so that Mastin can defend himself.

Uh, I've been waiting for Mastin to erspond to me 895 for over 2 weeks now. His stalling has probably allowed his scum-partners to position themselves better as his bussers. Something I'll look for when we go to night. Which should be about now.

Vote: Mastin

[Kublai Khan]

Hmm.. Bad night. Though I gotta admit I'm laughing my ass off at scum-Mastin and scum-ZazieR for buddying up to each other on Day 1.

Initial suspicions:

molestargazer

for an attempted last minute defense of Mastin. There's something weird about how he agreed with the majority about Mastin's scumminess, yet didn't want the lynch. Plus some of the people on the Mastin bandwagon that molestargazer listed have made their case against Mastin really clear (like VP Baltar for example). And why wasn't curiouskarmadog on your list? His vote (1164) isn't really any more in-depth than the rest that you quoted..

roflcopter

: For post 1258 mostly. It struck me a little weird that Mastin's defenses were so poor and scarce on Day 2. I know this is WIFOM, but surely his mafia teammates should have tried to come up with a strategy to make his RB claim more believable. One good explanation why they didn't would be to make themselves look town by being his biggest attacker.

Enter roflcopter. He was one of Mastin's biggest attackers. Plus his attempt to direct the vig-kill based on the guilt/innocence of his scum-mate Mastin accomplishes a lot of tasks: He looks town. He controls the vigilante (protecting himself). He eliminates a townie. Even if ckool5000 doesn't listen to him (or his vig got re-directed maybe?), he still ends up with the better part of the deal.

Wickedestjr

: For the weird cop-ish claim towards the end of the day. I wasn't going to bring attention to it because I thought maybe you were the cop, but with VP Baltar's death kinda nixes that idea. My gut is strongly telling me that you were trying to divert the doc protect away from the claimed pro-town killing role.

Plus

FOSes

for those flying under the radar: Achilles, Faraday, & Lowell I think are the biggest offenders.

[Kublai Khan]

I'll vote based on who has the worst defense.

[Kublai Khan]

Damn, the pace has really picked up...

and now i can tally three games where people try to lynch me for being right

No... It's more the vig-directing ploy. If you hadn't tried to direct the vig-kill, I'd be a lot less suspicious of you.

do you really think that someone would bus their only remaining scumpartner, another mafia power role, from the getgo on day one with two other kill sources remaining?

If Mastin had made an effort to address the DAY 1 problems with his roleclaim, I'd believe that his remaining partner(s) might have tried to coach him. Since Mastin didn't, I think it's much more likely that his remaining partner(s) made plans to bus the fuck out of him.

btw, now that we've had members of both scumteams trying their hardest to get khan lynched, can we finally agree that the guy is town and stop even entertaining the notion that we'll ever lynch him, ever? kthx

Uh, no one was suggesting to lynch me today.

the only person who's intentions i think were honest in wifoming himself about me-mastin was khan. i'm betting that the fact that he did so is what opened the floodgates of opportunism.

Well, I do agree with you about the point that the Vermillion Mafia are likely aiming to lynch you. But the general OMGUS attitude towards anyone suspecting you and the ignoring of the main point against you isn't really helping me see you as town.

[Kublai Khan]

you're disregarding the fact that i was trying to lynch mastin long before his roleblocker claim on day one

Yes, I acknowledge that. However, you have yet to address your scummy action of attempting to direct the vig kill.

i believe i've demonstrated my reason for suspecting those who are trying to paint me as mastin's scumpartner.

Yes, but conversly, it would stand to reason that the best strategy for the remaining Cerulean(s) would be to get the town to ignore any leads towards finding Ceruleans and to get the town to concentrate on finding Vermillion instead. Like this next post for example:

today i would rather hit vermillion. it benefits the town if we leave the last cerulean alive to potentially crosskill vermillion. we don't want to clear the board of all kill sources save a scumteam which is already in the stronger position than their rival scumteam. chances are very good that vermillion as one or two power roles left, and cerulean has none.

Having two mafia factions around hurts the town more than either mafia faction. Eliminating the weaker scum faction at this point reduces the number of night-kills by half. That's the best strategy.

vote: roflcopter

We should aim to get a role-claim from roflcopter today. There's something fishy about him.

[Kublai Khan]

its simple - i was/am confident enough in my read of a mastin-kmd scumteam to suggest vigging kmd if mastin flipped scum. a revealed vig should be directed by the town anyway, and no one else was stepping up for making their opinion known one way or the other. as for why i would have wanted myself lynched if i were wrong, it was because i knew i would have become an immediate mislynch, and the aim there was to save the town the trouble.

No one else stepped up? Looking at the timeline...

1241 10:21pm - ckool5000 claims

1242 - ckool5000 asks for kill choice
1243 to 1252 - Kmd4390, SerialClergyman, Xylthixlm, VP Baltar make comments, unvote, etc.

1253 11:50pm - roflcopter directs vig kill

1257 - ckool5000 asks for the town to make a decision
1258 - roflcopter repeats his directive

1261 - Kmd4390 agrees to roflcopter's vig directing

90 minutes passed from the time of ckool5000's claim to your vig-kill direction. Are you honestly trying to argue that you gave the rest of the town a fair chance to decide on whom ckool5000 should kill before 'stepping up'?

this is a stupid plan. see kmd sheep onto it immediately for evidence.

You were willing to die yesterday, yet today you don't want to reveal your role? Seems inconsistent.

[Kublai Khan]

Ugh, my big catch-up post got accidentally deleted.

Main point summary of it.

A) Either my read of roflcopter is wrong, or the bandwagon has no traction.

Unvote

B) I have no idea why Kmd4390 is reading Hayker as town. (or curiouskarmadog for that matter)

C) Namttam's huge turn about and mega-convinient timing of the noticing of the flaw in his logic is suspect.

D) Achilles needs to post or be replaced.

E) I'm good with the Hayker bandwagon.

vote: Hayker

(5/7 I think)

[Kublai Khan]

What is the case on Hayker?

Pretty quickly:

1) Newbbing it a little too hard for someone with a few games under his belt.
1B) using poor scumtells

2) buddying up to Mastin

3) lots of fence-sitting and taking up both sides of arguments

4) "Go ahead and lynch me" attitude

5) Very confined Day 1 play (Only interacted with Mastin, roflcopter, me, JOhnny Rotten/VP Baltar, MafiaMann, & ckool5000 (quarter of the player list))

6) Lurking-> Roughly 35 posts in first 40 pages.

7) 44 in iso could be construed as doc-fishing

8) Blabbering on about mind games

9) iso51: "Mastin was obviously investigated by johnny rotten I believe." <- Seems to be guessing a lot as to who the town's power roles are. Note the contractictory use of "obviously" and "I believe" in the same sentence.

10) "feeling out" cases on others {Asks Faraday about his thoughts on Lowell before going after molestargazer}

[Kublai Khan]

Hmm..

unvote

Admittedly I'm not too experienced with Masons, but I think the correct thing to do would be to at least admit the size of the mason group, to prevent scum from claiming to be the nth Mason in case the whole group happens to die.

[Kublai Khan]

I missed a lot. Did hayker claim mason?

Oh, I'm sorry, did the game wake you?

As poster boy for the 'lets focus on one scum group' philosophy, how does this not apply to yourself even more?

i've explained already why its my opinion that we should be focusing on lynching vermillion instead of cerulean today, for strategic reasons. and i've also been completely transparent about who i think is cerulean (nam) even though i'm not currently trying to lynch that player. compare my play with xyl's. so far his only positions on who is vermillion have been a) namtamm bc wicked is cerulean and b) i'm too stupid to figure it out.

Has your theory of "scum will cross-kill each other" changed in light of confirmed masons coming to light?

I think the posibility of mole lying is pretty much zero.

WTF? I might believe his neighbor claim if a 4th neighbor came out of the woodworks, but to take it at face value? No way.

for example, i find xyl extremely scummy (see above), but i find it to be very unlikely that he would have bussed mastin.

I'm sorry, but why do you feel that Mastin's scummates woudn't have bussed him?

living players:

Achilles - ??? uberlurker, more research needed
Lowell - leaning town, more research needed

curiouskarmadog - town

Kmd4390 - scum
Xylthixlm - scum

Faraday - town

Hayker - town (mason)
Kublai Khan - town (miller)
Namttam - most likely candidate for cerulean scum
molestargazer - likely town (neighbor)
SerialClergyman - leaning town, more research needed

roflcopter - town

Wickedestjr - town (mason)

I'd like to point out that none of these three are confirmed town by a long shot. I understand you've got your whole "scum will target town-confirmed people" strategy going, but what's stopping you from being Vermillion and pushing your scumbuddies as confirmed? Or being Cerulean and buddying up to people to try to sway their votes?

Lurking on Day 1, then heavily trying to direct the town on Days 2 & 3 by using put-downs isn't a pro-town strategy.

additionally, in this instance, since i am focussed on lynching red scum today, if selective scumhunting were to be applied to me i would have to be blue scum, which would mean that i would have been bussing mastin from day one, despite the fact that a blue scum had already died night zero. i don't want to beat a dead horse over how outlandish that theory was.

It's also much harder to find the Vermillion scum because we only know of 1 of them (who died Night 1), so hunting exclusively for them means that we're more likely to mislynch another townie.

[Kublai Khan]

kublai khan and his case of confirmation bias are no longer being responded to.

Did that pot just call me black?

[Kublai Khan]

so yeah, i'm ignoring you because everything you're doing is actively hurting the town.

Suit yourself. My job isn't to convince you that you're scum.

I don't understand this at all. Perhaps it's just me being thick, but why can't rofl just be posting his scummiest -> towniest list? Obviously if he's scum he's be lying..? And it's not like any of the people he calls scum are 'confirmed'...

Because there's a difference between posting "here's *my* list" and "here's the town's list". roflcopter is doing the latter.

It seems a ridiculous gambit for scum-mole to make, and I see no reason for it, unless he's trying to get 1 confirmed mason lynched, but it just seems unlikely.

Unlikely? molestargazer did agree to the "Let's testlynch the masons" idea shortly after his claim.

The claim was unprompted. I wasn't near lynch. At all. I wasn't even being pressured.
I made the claim in a sincere belief that Hayker & Wicked might be scum, and the claim was needed to explain why I thought so.
The claim was, in all probability, suicide. If the lynches happened, and I was correct, I'd most certainly die pretty quickly. If I was wrong, I'd be dead very soon after.
Please outline why you think I would do this as scum.

It doesn't quite make sense as scum unles you're really confident in your ability to talk yourself out of a tight corner, but truth be told you're not super high on my scum list. I'm more interested in Faraday's reaction.

[Kublai Khan]

The day's going pretty quick but since one of the two wagon's is on me(who is town) and the other is on someone I find likely to be scum, I will Vote:Xylthixlm.

The day's going pretty quick but since one of the two wagon's is on me(who is town) and the other is on someone I find likely to be scum, I will unvote, vote Namttam

Heh. That's pretty funny.

Vote: Namttam

That's 6 of 7. You should probably hit us with a good reason not to lynch.

[Kublai Khan]

Still waiting on reasons from SC, Kmd, and KK. Also I didn't miss count, Kk did and i took his word for it.

Yeah, sorry. Messed up the count.

I'm having a hell of a week. I'll post my reason on Sat.

[Kublai Khan]

Ok, got some time now, what was the question again?

Still waiting on reasons from SC, Kmd, and KK. Also I didn't miss count, Kk did and i took his word for it.

Ah, okay.. reasons.. Well, my notes mostly point to post 1483 back on Page 60. Specifically this part:

I have to back off my belief that KK is scum. Since he was attacked by both maf factions for his claim it is highly unlikely he is apart of either one. Since this conclusion did not jive with my previous one I reanalyzed my previous argument and found a flaw in it. I didn't account for the nature of the game of mafia. I don't think I've seen a role description for a miller that actually states that the miller will flip as town. Therefore, if the mod resent a miller pm to KK which did not contain this information, the mod was implying that either KK was just a regular miller or it was something only the mod got to know. These are alternate conclusion to my logic for why KK must be scum. Since I have alternate conclusions I cannot conclude KK must be scum which now jives which now jives with my conclusion that KK is town based upon him being attacked by both mafia factions. I made a mistake and I apologize.

Now this is on Day 3 and Namttam had voted for me for the majority of Days 1 & 2. If he had just posted the first two sentences of his explanation, I wouldn't have really noticed. But the whole detailing of him figuring out exactly what his error just seemed a little too contrived. Especially since VP Baltar had already outlined the flaw in his case in post 681 (which I unwittingly reiterated in post 689).

If you were a townie, I'd be more likely to believe that you honestly made a mistake if you hadn't pretended to "discover" the flaw in your case against me. Plus I don't know where you got the impression that all millers flip as scum. The mafiawiki definition of miller is pretty clear that "death miller" is a totally seperate role.

Also, SpyreX is totally right about you defending Mastin.

what is really scummy?

Oh wait, who said that first? I thought that Nam said it after Xyl. My bad.

@KK - Why did you vote for Nam if he made the comment first?

Even more of a reason to vote Xyl then.

Vote: Xyl

Because voting for the counter-wagon in an effort to save your own ass is always a scummy move. Especially if he's only piggy-backing on roflcopter's case. Xyl is scummy for copying the move, but Namttam did it first (and totally unironically at that). Plus I suspect Namttam more.

I think that Xyl and Nam need to claim, don't they? They are both at L-2.

hasnt nam already claimed?

wicked, I hope you understand that hay's claim has saved your ass.

::facepalm:: Yes, Namttam claimed Townie. And I totally agree with curiouskarmadog re Hayker saving Wickedestjr's ass.

[Kublai Khan]

?!?

Any reason you're trying to start a counter-wagon this late in the day, Hayker?

[Kublai Khan]

@Wickedestjr: Thanks for all the hard work on collecting voting patterns, but it might be for naught. I'm not seeing any patterns either.

This makes me think even more that the maf are all on my wagon already.

Eh.. My experience is that it's almost scum who say something like that. To wit:

Still, that bandwagon's size is alarming.
I can guarantee you that it's mostly scum driven.

Still, you make an interesting point. Why is there hesitation? Why are people dragging this day out? Let me go back and distill where people are currently standing...

Those not currently on the lynch (synthesis of suspicion towards Xylthixlm & Namttam and other recent actions)

:

curiouskarmadog

: recently unvoted Xylthixlm, not sure if he believe's Namttam's townie claim, pretty wishy-washy and vague. Not making any concrete statements of suspicion.

Faraday

: Thinks Xylthixlm is "neutral-ish" and states that nothing Nattam has done has caught his eye as scummy.

Hayker

: Not 100% happy with lynching either Xylthixlm or Namttam. Would rather lynch Lowell.

Lowell

: Stated that he thinks Namttam is suspicious (though Xylthixlm is more suspicious). Stated willingness to hammer Namttam. Recently had to be prodded.

molestargazer

: Stated that he doesn't like Namttam's defense a couple of times. Stated that he'd be happy to vote be hasn't.

roflcopter

: Heavy pushing the Xylthixlm wagon, but stated that he believed Namttam to be Cerulean Goon. Currently prodded.

Wickedestjr

: Casting a pretty wide potential scum net at the moment with his analysis (7 people?) I think he's leaning more for Xylthixlm than Namttam though.

Those currently on the Namttam lynch wagon

:

SerialClergyman

: Stated his case in 1842.

Kmd4390

: Stated his reason in post 1752 (VC analysis done in post 1446)

SpyreX

: States his case in 1788.

Xylthixlm

: I think 1755 is where he states his reasons...

Kublai Khan

: My case is states in 1820.

Namttam

: Uh, 1876 he makes a case on himself.

So is this where everyone is currently standing?

[Kublai Khan]

Xylthixlm

: I think 1755 is where he states his reasons...

Also 1754 and 1804.

Fair enough. Your thoughts are spread out over several posts, makes it tough to extrapolate your message in an iso read.

[Kublai Khan]

@KK, I unvoted Xyl because a combo of doubt that he is scum and something Nam said. I have been back and forth on Xyl for awhile (think this has already been discussed)...if we were in the beginning stages of the game (or day) I would simply put my vote on Nam..but we are too close to a lynch and I want to be sure.

At the moment I think Nam is scummier than Xyl.

So noted. But why does the day make such a big difference? I would understand if it was Day 3 and we had no dead scum, but we're not at LYLO. We've still got a margin of error.

KK, why are you in a rush to get the day over?

one more question KK, what prompted you to make post 1878? "Feeling the day is too long" is not really what I am looking for here...was there a particular post or discussion that prompted this?

Both these questions kinda have the same answer. What prompted my post? More than anything I'd say Hayker's vote for Lowell. On one hand I agree with Hayker that Lowell is scummy, but on the other hand I'm also positive that Namttam is scum. Several good cases have been presented from multiple points of view that show a clear pattern of behavior that indicates a nefarious scum-aligned intent. Namttam has not offered a different (pro-town) believable explanation for his behavior, instead he's offered a self-vote which I always interpret as an appeal to emotion which is never a good argument. So from my POV, it's pretty much an open and shut case.

As much as I'd love to pursue my suspicions of Lowell, I can't. I've got no leverage against him because he knows that Namttam is the lynch for today and it would be near impossible to build a counter-wagon on him. So if he's scum then he's just going to clam up. (Actually he's V/LA, so I really can't pursue him).

I know the general theory around these parts is that longer days favor town, but if the main target of suspicion isn't offering a defense and active players like roflcopter are being prodded due the stagnation, then whats the point of dragging the game to the point of deadline? Those that are sitting on the fence need to have their motives questioned. They need to either state why they think the Namttam case is bad or they need to be good townies and lynch scum.

[Kublai Khan]

Damn it Namttam.. Townies should always try to defend themselves. A suicidal townie only helps scum.

I'll try to get some re-reading done tonight, but I'm busy packing for a camping vacation. I'll be gone until the 15th. So lynch some scum while I'm gone, okay?

[Kublai Khan]

Hey guys, I'm back from a very restful and exhausting camping trip. I'll read over what was said and post something meaningful possibly tonight, but more probably tomorrow morning.

[Kublai Khan]

Okay, I'm caught up and here are my thoughts.

Kill Speculation: My current theory is that the fourth neighbor is Vermillion. If the Ceruleans had the fourth neighbor, then they would have left the more ambiguous 3rd neighbor claim alive in the game for possible lynch and killed off one of the most solid pro-town claims. I have come ideas on why roflcopter died, but it's pretty much WIFOM at this point.

Based on the past 8-9 pages, I think that Xylthixlm is kinda scummy. Two of his last couple of cases (SerialClergyman & curiouskarmadog) have been really sloppy. SerialClergyman has defended himself pretty thoroughly and I'd be very reluctant to lynch him at this point. The case on curiouskarmadog seems to be built mostly on meta and making loaded questions. I'm just going to make the point now that I don't care about meta and I'm not going to lynch people based on their actions in other games. We're not playing Frogs Mafia, so I don't care about Frogs Mafia. If Xylthixlm had only stated that curiouskarmadog asks loaded questions (with appropriate examples), then I'd be receptive to that as a case. But since he's trying to back it up with meta, it feels like he's playing with uncooked pasta.

That said, curiouskarmadog has also been pushing a very poor case back at Xylthixlm. I've understood everything that Xylthixlm has argued, so curiouskarmadog's confusion isn't ringing true. The return meta arguments and the accusations of semantics are horrible.

Plus I echo the sentiment that I really don't see when and how SpyreX became confirmed town. Him, Faraday, Kmd4390, & Lowell have posted far too little while I was gone. Kmd4390 has been V/LA for part of that time and so has Lowell, but SpyreX and Faraday have no excuse. I wouldn't be surprised if one or both are lurking scum.

However of the main two (Xylthixlm & curiouskarmadog), I think curiouskarmadog is more likely to be Vermillion, so..

Vote: curiouskarmadog

[Kublai Khan]

I guess we're at an impasse.

Lynch choices (in rough order, taken from suspicions in most recent post -- correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not a mind reader):
Kublai Khan: curiouskarmadog, Xylthixlm
Xylthixlm: SerialClergyman, curiouskarmadog
SpyreX: Lowell, SerialClergyman
Hayker: Lowell
Lowell: curiouskarmadog, SerialClergyman, SpyreX
Faraday: Lowell
Kmd4390: Serial Clergyman, Lowell, curiouskarmadog, Xylthixlm
SerialClergyman: Lowell, Xylthixlm
curiouskarmadog: Lowell, Xylthixlm
Wickedestjr: Kmd4390, SpyreX, curiouskarmadog

So our of ten...
Lowell has 6
curiouskarmadog has 5
Serial Clergyman has 4
Xylthixlm has 4
SpyreX has 2
Kmd4390 has 1

So if my information is correct, then Lowell has the clear majority thinking he's scum. However given that there's 3 or possibly 4 scum left, this makes me a little uneasy..

The case against Lowell just feels too pre-packaged and gift-wrapped by scum. The evidence is compelling, but fells kinda knee-jerk. At this point in the game it seems like someone should be able to point to a game-long intent to mislead or a voting pattern. I need motive because I could possibly add my vote.

[Kublai Khan]

Believe me, if I were mason, I would have claimed (not breadcrumbed) mason on page 1. If I were scum, I wouldn't bother indulging you in this argument. But how else will you learn?

Incidentally, I do NOT believe that the last mason/neighbor is scum. I don't know why people are assuming that. As far as "scum power roles" go, that would be a dumb one, and I don't see how it fits to have 3 pairs, 6 players, and exactly one of them in one pair is scum. It seems contrived to make it look like there's a case when there's none.

Um, why do you keep denying being a mason? As far as I know, nobody is accusing you of being a scum mason, they are accusing you of being a scum neighbor. It's been repeated several times.

And why the hell would the last neighbor not claim if they were town? I'll concur that it would have been more optimal for them to claim yesterday when molestargazer was still alive (truthly I wouldn't believe they were town if they claimed today). The only excuse for not claiming yesterday after molestargazer claimed would be if they were scum.

Damn, I'm thinking a little less of you for that post, Lowell.

Well of COURSE I switched my vote simply because Xyl asked me to and not because of anything you said. I mean, we're secret BFF's and all. In fact, I pretty much just wait for Xyl to tell me what to do and have given up on reading this game at all.

Sarcasm? At this point in the game? Really?

@Xylthixlm: in post 1952 you condemn the Lowell bandwagon and SerialClergyman and Faraday in paticular for "ringing your scumdar", yet you ignore that SpyreX jumped in between those two. Why?

[Kublai Khan]

@Xylthixlm: in post 1952 you condemn the Lowell bandwagon and SerialClergyman and Faraday in particular for "ringing your scumdar", yet you ignore that SpyreX jumped in between those two. Why?

[Kublai Khan]

I'm really not comfortable with all these posts coming after days and days of talking. It looks like people have come out of the woodwork at deadline time to swoop on the ckd wagon without really getting into the discussion and the argument, and that's prototpyical scummy behaviour.

Your continuing defense of curiouskarmadog has been noted.

[Kublai Khan]

Interesting. Who have you hid behind?

[Kublai Khan]

Oh, and

unvote

for now.

[Kublai Khan]

You guys are immense chumps. The "every other day hider" claim makes no sense. Still it's verifiable, so whatever.

Here's an idea. Let me live. Have him hide behind me.

unvote, vote kmd

. Someone other than me, please. I'm finally starting to pay attention to this and you'll need me.

Why you?

If you are townie, and hider-curiouskarmadog hides behind you, then you'll be targetted and you'll both die. (2 Deaths)
If you are scum, and hider-curiouskarmadog hides behind you, then he dies and you get a mafia kill. (2 deaths)
If you are scum, and curiouskarmadog is your scum partners, then it's a ploy to look town.

Bad plan. SpyreX's mason plan is much, much better. Even if the worse case scenario happens and 2 townies (mason + hider) die, we still have 2 confirmed townies (other mason + me).

Willing to hammer Lowell at this point.

[Kublai Khan]

Deadline is just over 2 & 1/2 hours away from this post. Lowell has to be hammered before deadline.

I'll be online for the next couple of hours, but will probably hammer with an hour left to go (playing it on the safe side). So if anyone wants to say anything game-changing, now is the time to do it.

[Kublai Khan]

Huh. Lowell is the last Cerulean.

Same thing crossed my mind.

[Kublai Khan]

I'm almost tempted to let this go no lynch so Lowell can take a shot at the Vermillions.

I understand your reasoning behind that, but I tend to agree with the counter-argument that eliminating an extra night-kill is a good move.

Vermillion might just leave Lowell alive because if the town will have to get rid of Lowell at some point and if we leave it for another day then that's another day that we aren't hunting Vermillion. Vermillion can just keep picking off the most pro-town roles.

Plus we've got some potential cascading effects that can clear townies with SpyreX's plan.

[Kublai Khan]

You guys are saying he is scum and debating on whether or not to lynch him.

Vote Lowell

Uh, yeah.. Did you actually read our discussion?

[Kublai Khan]

Wow, people are charging into today still making wild accusations against each other? Look people, stop. Let's calm down a second and stop acting like an unruly mob. Let's think this through a bit.

Let's start at the beginning by reviewing what we know and don't know:

• We know that we have two mafia groups (Cerulean and Vermillion). This is evidenced by the death reveal and that the kills have been consistent with the theory.
  
• 2 Cerulean power roles are dead and 1 Vermillion goon is dead. There is an unaccounted for neighbor role so that suggests that the two mafia groups don't mirror each other. This opens up the possibility that one group (prob. Vermillion) possibly has 3 members left. If that's the case, then I think that we're near or at LYLO. So let's be careful with our votes.
  
• We have a confirmed mason (Wickedestjr) that is beyond suspicion. A claimed miller (me) and a claimed hider (curiouskarmadog). I think it's probably a good move at this point to have a mass roleclaim so that we can get all info on the table for best decision making.

Some speculation:
I'm still incredibly suspicious that curiouskarmadog is lying about his role claim. However both mafia groups targetted a mason, which means that he might be telling the truth. If he was a member of the mafia, then there was a 50% chance that both masons could have died and he'd be exposed. I can't picture the last Cerulean risking that, so if curiouskarmadog is scum, then he's Vermillion.

@Xyl:
I really hope that you're not scum as you're the towniest looking unconfirmed player at the moment. I'm going to hold off answering your question until I collect a little more info (i.e. after a mass claim). And I still don't see how SpyreX is so town-looking to you. He's among one of my top suspects.

[Kublai Khan]

If this drags out for weeks I'm going to start forgetting reasons and impressions and other important-but-hard-to-verbalize information. In my experience, the town does better when things go faster, at least up to a limit which this game is nowhere near reaching.

If Wick doesn't log on before tomorrow, do you want me to kick start it?

[Kublai Khan]

Alright then..

KMD4390 - State your claim.

[Kublai Khan]

Okay, now that everyone has claimed I feel I can make an educated vote. I'm not surprised by the fact that all remaining scum claimed townie, at least now there's no chance of a last-minute power-role fakeclaim.

I'm pretty sure that curiouskarmadog is lying about being a hider. I think he panicked that he was the lead vote-getter right at the deadline and knew that he couldn't claim vanilla since we've already lynched a claimed vanilla at deadline (Mufasa). So he fakeclaimed a hider role, but botched it by not listing who he hid behind right away, then his choice of me was iffy at best. Wickedestjr already made the point about the strangeness of his decision to hide behind a miller. I think his little "I made a breadcrumb" dance he's doing today is all about stalling so that his partners can bus him and make themselves look more town. So..

vote: curiouskarmadog

I think we're better off lynching Verm-scum today, then glossing over today's activity while trying to find curiouskarmadog & ZazieR's partner(s). I know it sounds anti-town to ignore a day's activity but bus fumes are a little thick.

My scumlist (per Wickedestjr's request) is SpyreX, Kmd4390, Faraday, SerialClergyman, Xylthixlm, Wickedestjr (scum to town)

[Kublai Khan]

NIGHT 0
VP Baltar investigates Kublai Khan

This part is my favourite. Kublai is fucking psychic or something.

Yeah, that was a weird move on my part. I'd never done anything like that before and we definately didn't plan on it. When I saw the thread open and Mastin posting, I just figured "what the hell?". With a 4-man group with a godfather, I figured it would slightly raise the chance that SC (then revaillark) would get investigated and not me. Zazie did a great job going after me and I figured on Mastin going after me if I went after him.

I think the town did a great job. There were a lot of great town mafia players that I think we needed those few lucky breaks to get the win, but I think my partners did a great job taking full advantage of every good piece of luck we had.

Sotty7 was killed because we wanted a target that was good, but not so great and well known (like roflcopter or elvis_knits) that they'd be protected. Zazie recomended him, so apologizes that you didn't play.

We were trying to eliminate the vig to reduce the number of potential cross-kills, so we offed Kise based on something he said on Day 1 about promising not to kill me. In retrospect, ckool5000 was the vig as SpyreX pointed out, but it didn't look that obvious then.

So once ckool5000 was outed as the vig, he was a good target. Plus he worried us since he posted his train of thought and he was a damn loose cannon! Down to 2 kills a night.

roflcopter.. eh.. thinking back I think it was mostly to eliminate the towniest leader. I tried to lead a bandwagon against him the previous day, but he just kinda dismissed me. He was going to be too tough to lynch (and could potentially be scum), so bam.

We chose to kill Hayker over Wickedestjr because Wickedestjr seemed to be somewhat more manipulable. He vote-hopped a few times whereas Hayker stayed put with his vote. But it didn't matter, at that time we knew that curiouskarmadog was the last Cerulean because of his hiding target. We didn't kill CKD outright because we figured town might wonder how Vermillion *knew* that he wasnt a hider and that might out me.

I was worried about Xyl listed Kmd4390 and SpyreX as more town than me. I was definately taking more bold chances in trying to push for town lynches then I would have if I hadn't claimed miller. Seeing that Xyl & Wick already voted CKD, I couldn't wait for the mass claim (was really worried about trackers, ironically) to be done so I could vote CKD. I think SC was just hovering and waiting for Faraday to vote.

BTW, I don't blame you for keeping quiet about the neighbor thing, Kmd.. You would have probably been lynched for it. I was positive the last Cerulean was a neighbor.

Crazy game... I can't believe I rode a miller claim to the endgame and won. Plus I got a revenge lynch on Mastin along the way... (Ha!)

BTW Mastin.. You shouldn't be so surprised that other players really dislike your self-described anti-town play. You'd be a much better player if you played a little more pro-town.

Top notch game, iamausername!

(BTW - I'm okay with posting our QT)

[Kublai Khan]

Also, I saw you post in that MD thread saying that you would be using a "green room" thread. I couldn't wait to see it...

[Kublai Khan]

I thought CKD was town up untill his claim >__>

Heh. Me too. I think our QT reveals me saying that I thought he was "the poster boy for town".

[Kublai Khan]

I do have one hypothetical question I would like to ask. Kublai Khan has claimed Miller. If, by some happenstance, the cop in this game were to investigae KK on night 0, would the result that he/she received change anything?

Man, it's like the ckool5000 vig thing. So obvious on the re-read.