Mafia 96 - Murder in Emerald City (Game Over!)

[Mastin]

Emerald City First Post

FoS:

Seryna

Kise,

Nadroj15

ZazieR

,

For being the last to confirm. It's a scum tell. (Sure, they replaced the last two to confirm, but still...that doesn't mean the tell doesn't apply.)

With that out of the way,
I'd like to do some real scum hunting, here!

Mastin Votes: Mastin.

I'm a member of Mafia A, along with...hmm...let's say...Roflcopter, Mufasa, MafiaMann, and...hmmm...Ah, yes. Kublai Khan.
Fallen Angel is also a neutral mafia traitor, who we failed to recruit last night for reasons we shalln't reveal.

Zazie is a Mafia B traitor, who can be recruited by the Mafia B faction. We want Zaz dead as soon as possible because of that.
And Kise...oh, right, did I mention Khan's a rolecop and we have daytalking abilities? Yea, we do, and Khan has revealed to us that Kise is a Mafia B godfather. Yay!

Discuss.

[Mastin]

Come on, surely someone from this town is on? I like talking to people. Don't deprive me of that pleasure!

Seriously, people. Talk. It's boring, right here, doing nothing, right now, typing away, right away... [/failing an attempted song]

[Mastin]

I wonder...can I get to a second page without it being considered spam, by myself?

Really, people...

Oh, and obviously, Mafia B is the Ceruleans. So, yay, my scum faction is way, way ahead!

[Mastin]

Achilles
BloodCovenent
cateraction
ckool5000
dvdkid13
Empking's Alt
fallen angel
Faraday
Hayker
Johnny Rotten
Kublai Khan
MafiaMann
Mastin
Mufasa
nadroj15 ZazieR
Namttam
Redith
reveillark
roflcopter
Seryna Kise
Wickedestjr

Compared to

In total there are 64 users online :: 27 Registered, 17 Hidden and 20 Guests [ Administrator ] [ Moderator ]
Most users ever online was 231 on Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:07 pm
Registered Users: Alduskkel, canadianbovine, Claramata, Conspicuous_other, d3x, Droideka_11, Ectomancer, Exalt, Feeres, Gelus, Jahudo, James.Denholm, Kise, LlamaFluff, lobstermania, magnus_orion, Mastermind of Sin, Mastin, Mirth, mlaker, Naomi_Saotome, PaperPenguin, The Many, Toxic Buffalo, vollkan, Xylthixlm, yabbaguy

Let's see how many are online with some analysis of this useless data! Yay!

[Mastin]

Kise will post, or will be labeled a lurker.

Wow, Mastin's on crack.

You obviously haven't seen me on Saturday Nights when Adult Swim moved Bleach and Code Geass to five in the morning. I literally went insane (I like to think of myself as already insane. I was FAR WORSE THAN NORMAL that night, making me REALLY insane. ) because of that.

And he didn't die on Night 0

Of course not! We have a mafia doctor as well, you know! You should know very good and well that rofl protected me last night.

which means he's scum.

Yea, pretty much. Bussing day one for the win!

vote: Mastin (OMG Bandwagon!)

Mastin Unvotes: Mastin,
Mastin Votes: Kublai Khan.

This is blatant OMGUS.

More seriously, I'm a miller.

Scum-tell 420: Claiming miller early on as mafia.

So if any cops investigated me, adjust your sanity accordingly.

Rolefishing already? Shame on you, Khan!

[Mastin]

I'm always hidden, Mastin.

Eh, I should consider it at some point. I'm sick and tired of being accused of lurking when I'm online and writing a post for the game I'm accused of lurking in. <_<

Oh, and by the way, I'm a Mafia Roleblocker. My target last night was one of the names in here:
fallen angel
Faraday
Hayker
Johnny Rotten
Kublai Khan
MafiaMann
Mastin
Mufasa

ZOMG! He's altering his claim! Lynch all Liars!

[Mastin]

Aie!

Lol. First time I've seen

that

reaction.

The walls-o-text!

Yea, I want my title of Unabridged as soon as possible. It gives me even more of an excuse to post walls of text.

So soon

I love 'em.

and built from nothing!

Nah, not nothing. Just close to nothing.

How does he do it?!?

I'm writing a post for this. It involves the fact that I'm a writer. Expect to see a thread called "Shameless Advertising" in General Discussion within half a year--that's how long it'll take me to write up that behemoth.

Less seriously,

Roleclaim: A jester

. TOWN, YOU LYNCH ALL JESTERS!

And more seriously, Khan, you just stole Kise's spot on my sig.

[Mastin]

You could try irc mafia to whittle time, Mastin.

Eh, I enjoy a good Epicmafia match every once and a while. I might do IRC mafia eventually, but, nah, IRC has a habit of kicking people out of a room if they write a post too long--I'd be kicked every time I try to respond.

[Mastin]

Mastin: andycyca's worst foe. (andycyca's title is Gets to Kill All Spammers)

[Mastin]

I dunno.

Or...DO YOU?!?

I think you'd be intrigued by Xyl's bot.

Probably.

But I'll get back on-topic.

We have a topic? Oh, right, a Quick-Topic.

Not that's really a topic happening

I disagree---we're talking.

since nobody's here yet.

You're here. I'm here. Kise is lurking (is on the list of players here, but not posting here). Yea, that's somebody at least.

So, uh, Mastin.

Yes?...

How accurate is that last-to-confirm scum-tell working out?

It's got a wiki page. Yes, a wiki page.

I need to get more details into there. Fill in the missing tell.

[Mastin]

kublai khan is town

We'll see.

and wins the common sense award for knowing what to do as a miller

If he's a miller, sure.
It's also a common scum tactic.

mastin needs a new start-the-game-up gag.

Nah. It works fine as is.

mastin has also committed a real scumtell

Of course I have--I claimed scum, jester, etc., and asked to be lynched, and outed my partners.

policy voting the guy who claimed miller in his first post.

Actually, it's blatant OMGUS. The miller part is just icing on the top of a small cake.

vote: mastin

Yay for bandwagons!

for great justice

Nah. I'm always this bad.

whoever killed elvis has earned my eternal ire

Probably the Ceruleans.

and i miss her already

Yea...Elvis is a good player.

[Mastin]

Hi Mastin!

Hello, Fallen.

*Energetic wave*

So eager to play with me, eh?

Hmmmm....

Good response.

Vote Johnny Rotten

Oh, a random vote! Nice!

Welcome to Mastin's layer. He's a serial-killer-lyncher-jester-member-of-a-four-man-mason-roleblocker-tracker-watcher group.

because he used proper capitalization

I like capitalization...

*shakes fist angrily*.

Between waving and shaking, your hands will get tired fairly quickly...

seriously guys

Me? Serious?

random vote stage is over

Nah, not yet. I'd love to break my five-person record, but I think we need another round of posts.

enough with the shenanigans

The RVS aint over until Mastin stops joking.

we can now proceed to lynching mastin

If you wish, sure.

Meh.

Hey! That's my favorite response!

I think Khan is town

Eh, he could be, he might not be. [vig directing] (a huge scum tell) It might be a good idea to vig him to make sure, though. [/vig directing].

mostly because I have been told to claim miller ASAP

He speaks the truth.

to save cop investigations and shtuff like that.

Yea...I'd generally not do stuff like that.

Then again, what do I know.

Enough to know to strive to get better.

It's one in the morning

10 for me.

and I'm barely paying attention to this.

Not paying attention-->Scumtell. Please do pay attention more.

Yay for The Simpsons DVDs

Meh.

no mastin

I get that a lot.

backing up your kublai khan vote

Backing up my OMGUS-random-vote on Kublai Khan, to be more specific.

with the fact that he claimed miller is not "icing on the cake"

Eh, it's the RVS. Not having fun in it is a scum tell.

and i will not let you pretend its part of your meaningless antics

I don't see why not. I'm always this crazy and cling onto unusual scum tells.

its scummy

Eh, if you say so.

and you will now be lynched.

Sweet. Fulfill my Jester win condition.

trying to unconfirm a player

No player is EVER confirmed at this point in the game.

who is now as good as confirmed town

I'm willing to call someone semi-confirmed if there is evidence to support that they're innocent.
Confirmed?
Over my dead body; pile up those votes to ensure I'm six feet under before this happens.

will not stand on my watch.

Meh.

---

Okay, NOW the RVS is over.

[Mastin]

Me, Kublai Khan, Fallen Angel, Rofl...

Yay!
I broke my five-person record!
My record's now four-people-to-escape-RVS!

[Mastin]

Mastin Unvotes: Kublai Khan.

Because it is no longer the RVS, I need not my true RVS vote.

[Mastin]

Holy ever-loving shit!!

Yea, I get that a lot.

I don't think I've ever come across a player quite like Mastin.

That's because I'm one of a kind.

I seriously don't know what to do with that wall of information that he has put up in the last hour

Read it all, scum hunt if you can from it, draw conclusions, etc.

which is probably what he wants.

Actually, that's exactly the opposite of what I want. I LOVE people reading my stuff. I HATE people ignoring it.

[Mastin]

Mastin acting weird is a null tell.

Me acting normal, now, THAT is a scum tell.

He's Mastin, dammit!

Oh, man...the number of things people give me that could become part of my sig...

[Mastin]

Uh... Two observations so far:

Ah, good, I like those.

1) roflcopter is clearing me with a little too much conviction.

Yea...I find that kinda odd as well.

2) Mastin's acting really weird.

It's normal these days.

Making jokes about how scummy you are in the random voting stage is just the sort of reverse psychology trick that would appeal to Mastin.

Yea, of course it's the kind of trick that appeals to me. I love doing it.

My random vote is now kinda serious.

Yea. I get that a lot. Too bad they're all ongoing games.

Doesn't really come off as a joke so much as it comes off like an actual blatant scum tell posing as a joke.

Gets discussion going. My RVS tactics get us discussing, even if it's discussion on me. I like the pressure. I love Slayer's/Fong's gambit.

I've only played one game with Mastin before.

Yea...thing is, I've got...hmm...

735,
742,
762,
763,
760,
Open 131,
Polygamist Mafia,
Lynch all Lurkers...

At least Eight games.
Most of the ones where I've acted this way are ongoing, though. Ask...hmm...
*takes a look at the player list*

Empking's Alt,
ZazieR,
and
Kise.

They can confirm it's what I do.

The wall-o-text is expected

To say the least. I feel uneasy not posting them.

but the RVS activity is completely opposite what I know of him.

I replaced into 742 with a page already finished, Khan.
Replacing != Playing from the beginning.

You'll see in 762 and 763 and 141 that I self-voted.
In Polygamist Mafia, I not only self-voted, but claimed scum.

I realized that my tactics weren't working as well, so...
Scummy tactics got introduced.

mastin failing to respond specifically to post 33

It's called a Simulpost. I hadn't noticed his post. Thanks for reminding me, though.

is further evidence that he is scum

Perhaps in your eyes.

---

Let's see how much more I have to respond to now. I love pressure.

[Mastin]

I wasn't lurking.

If you say so.

I had to replace in another game

Kise, be careful--you might end up becoming the next me. (10+ games. :/)

and it took me 3+ hours to catch up on all the pages.

It'll take 1+ hour for most people to catch up on THIS game.

Vote: Johnny Rotten

Hmm...
1: Kise, you appear to be at least partially caught up, so you should know that at least two players have declared the RVS over. Was that a random vote?

2: Why are you bandwagonning? Fallen Angel already voted Johnny earlier.

3: Why Johnny?

Also, I just want to point out that this is the 2nd time tonight that I've heard of a supposed Miller claiming on D1!

O_O

Mastin, is that a Digimon in your avy?

...It's Zorbak. A Moglin. <_<

I've been curious for a while now.

Eh, it happens. People have called it all kinds of different things.

[Mastin]

And in case anyone asks

Yes, yes I will ask. In fact, I just did. :/

I voted for Rotten because of his minimal post.

Ah, that makes sense.

In that case,

1: What do you think of Khan, especially the fact that he claimed Miller?

2: What do you think of Rofl, pushing for my lynch so early on?

3: What do you think of Fallen Angel?

4: What do you think of me?

There's so much activity going on

Yea. This time people really can blame me and only me (...until Zaz logs on. ).

but he doesn't care to comment on it at all.

I'm not surprised, actually. I have that impact on people.

roflcopter is pressing for a lynch quite hard.

From what I understand, this is typical roflcopter stuff.

This does seem typical Mastin

Seem? Why the doubt? :/

but I'm not sure if I'll believe it this time around.

And why would that be, Kise?

No vote for either of you yet until I read more of your behaviors.

Right, so this seems like fence sitting to me.

And don't worry, Khan.

I don't think he's worried.

I won't kill ya.

Please tell me the wink by that thing was meant to indicate a joke.

[Mastin]

I...uhhh....ummmmmmmm......

What the hell just happened?

I logged on. You need not know more.

I know it's dumb of me to say this as it's a scum tell

Yes, that would be Xyl's confusion-->Scumtell, correct?

This is my first large game here on mafiascum.

Hopefully not your last.

Actually this is the largest mafia game I have played anywhere.

Where else have you played?

Do tell.

I want to see how experienced you are.

I don't know what it was I was expecting

Expect a fast-paced game. This happens even if I am not playing. Large games have many players, hence, more posts per day.

but I know that it wasn't this.

It happens. I'm not your normal MS.net player.

I find roflcopters constant strait up blaming Mastin being scum kinda scummy.

Again, from what I've heard, rofl tunnels a lot. I'll look into it to see if this is true, but I do see how many players can/will tunnel and wouldn't call it a tell of any kind.

Though I have to admit, I believe he brings up a few valid points.

Which I defend against, like any good player should, mind you.

@Kublai:I don't know for sure

Like I said...replacing into a game isn't the same as playing from the start.

It works differently.
It has different rules.

but perhaps his acting different is because that was a newbie game.

It has been a long time, yes, since that game, but it being a Newbie Game isn't the reason for the playstyle difference.

I can already tell how different newbie games are from large games in the first two pages.

Games I'm in aren't the best examples. Try to avoid games with my name mentioned when trying to determine something like that.

I'm gonna assume that rvs is over for a fact

To not recognize this fact would be a scum tell itself.

so I hope the complete and total randomness dies down a bit.

I might make a joke or two, sure, but I'm not planning on being random anymore. I've had my fun; time to scum hunt.

Though with Mastin around....

Yea...I'm Zwetschenwasser * 10 in many, many ways.

[Mastin]

This seems to be a fair definition of the term.
I'm kinda distracted at the moment, and I've always been known for my bad choice of words, so if anyone wants to give a better definition, feel free to do so.

[Mastin]

@Hayker - The randomness never dies down until Mastin finds an opponent

Nah. It's already died down a bit.

and it just very well may be roflcopter.

I'll defend myself from rofl's accusations, but I currently think he's just tunneling town. (Will do that Meta read later to confirm that he tunnels like this as town.)

I can sense a bit of stubborn-tunneler looming.

Yea...I like tunneling as well. Do it far less often nowadays, but I still like it.

I honestly am not sure if you're town this time around, Mastin.

Well...people never are. They're normally proven wrong when they think me to be scum, though.

I noticed you don't get a mafia role a whole lot

Fortunately. I hate being mafia--it makes me feel like a burden to my team.

because the mods are smart (:p)

Yea. I need to make that an Insane Tell of some kind to include that.
"If Mastin plays in a game, he isn't mafia."

knowing you always brings attention to yourself

I love the pressure. It's a thrill, a challenge, to me. What would be the point in playing if everyone thought you were town?
Not much; it's quite boring, really.

and always end up in the hot seat.

While I do enjoy people calling me town (they're almost always right. ), again, there'd be absolutely no fun in playing if everyone did. So, best way to get people calling you scum and to actually have fun, act suspicious to get into the hot seat.
Works almost every time.
(...Unfortunately, occasionally, it works just a tad bit *too* well. )

My view on you leans more towards NOT being scum

Why, thank you. I take that as a compliment, considering what most say about me.

simply because of the attention you drew

If that's your only reasoning, you should be warned that it's a null tell from me. Not a town tell.

but I'm always watching and waiting for those scumslips.

Again, this seems like fence sitting.

I am using meta right now

Good. Metagaming-->Awesome. Metagaming Me won't work if you want to call me scum for differences in attitude, and only slightly works in finding consistencies, but still, it's a good practice. (Just not one which works very well on me.)

because in the game you were scum

Two games, actually. Polygamist and Lynch all Lurkers.
688 doesn't count; I was a newbie, back then.

your posts were very distanced and not as rapid as whenever you're town.

Eh, again, I frown upon people using my play as scum as evidence, because, quite frankly, it doesn't work well.

Khan's Miller claim doesn't move me.

While I do agree that it is the time for a Miller to claim, I do hold slight suspicions over it being a possible mafia tactic as well. I have my reasons for thinking this, but would rather not reveal the details other than what I've already said about it. It doesn't warrant a vote alone, though.

I'd still vote for him if he acts scummy

Yea, that's generally my plan. He's someone to keep an eye on. I'll be looking very carefully at his town meta, review his scum meta, and play this entire game for...well, the duration of this game. If he ends up being scummy, my random vote which I took off will become a serious vote.

because I was in a game not long ago where the [Death] Miller was of neutral alignment and would have won the game before the town if all of the mafia were eradicated.

I don't comprehend this sentence.

So, Millers are still suspects IMO.

Again, I agree. They're the claim to at least keep an eye on. (Quite personally [although this opinion is influenced heavily by epicmafia], I believe in not letting Millers know they are millers in semi-open setups.) It's the perfect scum claim, which is why I will be keeping an eye on Khan.

I can already tell roflcopter is an aggressive player

Yea. I like players like rofl. I'm aggressive as well, most of the time.

and a very serious one at that

Yea. Generally, I'm serious once we get out of the RVS, aside from the occasional joke.

despite his name.

Yea, I suppose that is a bit ironic.

where the aggressor doesn't seem to be open-minded enough to accept the possibility of someone's actions such as yours (Mastin) to be that of a pro-town player.

Eh, it happens.

Obviously, I'm quite familiar with your style by now

Most of it. It still changes from time to time.

so I know what to expect.

Fortunately. Most do not, though, which is why I like my style so much.

And besides that, it generally would not be a good idea for scum to put so many eyes on them during the start of a game

Again, I'm afraid I must insist this is a null tell, because if I did it as town and not as scum, soon enough, people would notice this and then call me scum whenever I don't do it.

because if they got lynched on D1 and flipped mafia

If anyone gets lynched Day One, it sucks for that person, at least. No matter their alignment, they'll likely feel like they failed their team.

they'd be jackasses for real..

Again, I believe this applies to most players, actually.

Not much to say about fallenangel

...Seriously nothing?

since he's still in a RVS of his own

Isn't that by itself worth commenting on?

What can you make of it?

I think you're a blue digimon

:/

is what I think.

No, seriously. Expressing opinions that are game related-->Pro-town.

But more seriously

That's more like it!

I think you'll bump heads with roflcopter for a bit

Probably.

and that will continue to be the focal point of D1.

Focal point? Probably not. A major debate point? Yea, almost certainly.

You two should ignore doing anything OMGUS

I do not believe in OMGUS'ing at any other point than the RVS.

because, in the event both of you are town,

This is actually what I am currently thinking, actually.

the mafia will just pick a side

Actually, if they're good mafia players, they will be divided and individual players will take one side, while others on their team will take the other, and perhaps even more taking both.

and play the parts of your supporters

Yea, again, see above. Depends on the members of the mafia, really. Some mafia members might take the lead if I drop the case, for example. (To not do so might be scummy, due to them backtracking. Depends on the arguments, really.)

How can you say I'm fencesitting when I already made a vote?

Because you seem to show a readiness to change to either rofl or me at any moment.

Oh boy...

Yes, boy.

I think I just gave Mastin more ammo for his next posts, lol.

Dead-on.

I bet it'll be a thick read.

Yea...the scroll on the Quick Reply box already looks fairly small. Not that bad, though. I've had worse. It looks to only make up roughly one sixth of the scroll bar. I've had them be so small it's hard to even tell how small a fraction of the post I'm writing.

OK, it's nearly 2:30 in the morning

Midnight, here.

so I'm logging off.

You can blame me if you wake up to the Apocalypse.

I'll come back to play tomorrow.

With luck, yea.

Night.

See ya.

Try not to make 14 pages when I wake up.

Aww...that's no fun!

Oh, fine. I'll hold back--only thirteen.

[Mastin]

Post 48 has a lot of grammatical errors...

I noticed.

Well, here are my thoughts so far

Nice to hear, Fallen.

Mastin is being, well, Mastin.

Dang, I wish I could fit a hundred quotes in my sig--they'd be quotes like this.

I'd be more worried if he acted sane.

That's me, alright. Mastin, the insane guy.

Roflcopter seems a bit scummy to me for tunneling Mastin with no real reason

Again, I think it's likely a stylistic thing.

Kise's voting Johnny seems really weird to me.

He did explain it, though. I don't think it's the best vote from him, but I don't see anything scummy in it.

Why him, out of all the other people who haven't posted?

Actually, Johnny had posted at the time, FA.

Out of the 21 still alive, haven't only about 7 or so posted?

Yea. Johnny amongst them.

fallen angel is scum with mastin.

This does, of course, rely on the assumption that I am scum, which is, of course, a false statement. Who else are you going to tunnel on, Rofl?

you heard it here first.

And aside from you, I doubt you'll hear it again.

Asking players to confirm your behavior in on-going games?

Dead in all of them. :/

Anyways, I acknowledge that you are shifting your playstyle.

Intentionally, I might add. I hate having every player on MS.net know my style. It loses its power if that happens.

I've done it from time to time.

I've done it several times.

Prevents meta-gaming.

Eh, I have no problem with people metagaming me in defense. I do, however, have a strong distaste for when they use it as an attack against me.

Oh, and replacing in on the second page

...Is replacing in after gameplay has already started. In 762, I replaced in, but because I replaced in before the game began, I might as well have been playing from the start, for example.

is practically the same as being in the game from the beginning.

Not in my opinion.
And as I am the guy who controls my own actions...
My opinion makes the call on things like that.

But if you want to split hairs about it, then fine.

*splits hairs*.

Uh.. Are you claiming a killing role?

I asked basically the same thing. It's vital for Kise to answer the question. Ask rofl on the subject of:
Softclaims.
Or take a look at Lynch all Lurkers.

I could be a miller or I could be a member of the mafia.

This might be just a stylistic thing, but I find this kinda suspicious--if I were a miller, I'd be speaking with certainty, saying that I *am* a miller, yet

in theory

could be a member of the mafia, but aren't.

Be kind and trim your walls-o-text down a bit Mastin.

Aww, but they're so much fuuuuuun...

Nobody likes having to deal with replacements.

Is that a threat?

I learned the scumtell from epic mafia.

Hmm, odd, I play epicmafia, yet I don't recognize either your avatar or your name.

Nor have I seen that scumtell used on EM.

What setups are you playing there? <_<

I started playing mafia on a forum called FEABL(Fire Emblem Arena Battle League) I have played games 8-14 on that site.

Links to games you've been in work wonders.

On casual collective I started a mafia game there. We've played several rounds, but a few have falllen apart and mafia isn't played at a very high level. Though there are a few exceptionally good players.

Again, links to games work wonders for metagaming purposes.

I've played a whole lot on epic mafia, though I play less now.

Odd, since your general playstyle didn't seem to be that of a normal epic mafia player. When you mentioned other sites, I instantly thought of EM, sure, but your playstyle doesn't seem very EM-ish.

explain how i am "blaming" mastin.

You're voting me and accusing me of being scum. I'd call that a possible form of blaming.

if you mean the fact that i am accusing him, please expound on why this is scummy.

Tunneling so early in the game is anti-town. I wouldn't say it's scummy, but there's no denying it isn't pro-town to do.

i would also like to point out that saying my attack on mastin is scummy and then calling my points valid is an example of trying to have your cake and eat it too.

Or in simpler less metaphorical terms, an inconsistency. I don't agree, though--you can see an attack as having valid points, yet still think of it as being scummy.

fact: mastin has developed a meta for some kind of random phase

jackassery

I need to look up that word and confirm its definition (for my current definition of that word definitely doesn't fit the accusation you're making). You're the second player to accuse me of that.

involving rapid fire monster posts.

This is true; I make rapid-fire monster posts in most of my more recent games.

you evidently are aware of this.

Yea. He's seen it twice.

fact (being assumed by you here): garnering a large amount of attention early on is counter to the goal of a player who is scum

I think you mislabeled that; I'd leave out the "fact" part and leave it as "your assumption:".

And, again, as I explained, it's a null tell for me.

in which of these situations will mastin draw more NEGATIVE attention - when he plays to his self-made meta, or when he is quiet and out of the limelight in the early game?

Definitely the latter. It's happened in games. (I had lots of fun in said games until it went too far.)

therefore, is it really safe to say the fact that he is playing to his meta of inane psychobabble makes him more likely to be town? the answer is no.

I agree with rofl. It's a null tell. Not a town tell.

mastin has built himself a meta prison wherein he must act this way no matter his alignment,

Nah, I've broken it from time to time when playing with players who know me--they'll find it more suspicious and I can play under more pressure than normal.
But, most of the time, yea, I will play this way.

it is the actual content of what he is saying which is important

Not really. I say the same RVS stuff in every game. One player even perfectly predicted what my next post would be in one instance.

and in this case the content indicates he is scum.

If you say so.

---

Have to leave, right now; be back soon, if I can.

[Mastin]

The RVS didn't even seem over at that point, yet you just claimed it was.

To be fair, in any game I am in, the RVS will last only a maximum of three pages.

claiming miller as scum on day one is a gambit that may work on occasion

Yet it works perfectly when people react the way you do to it and consider them instantly clear for it. A miller claim will almost never be a mafia night-kill unless said miller appears incredibly pro-town. So by claiming miller--an excuse to dismiss any cop reports--when it makes people think you're pro-town, is the perfect excuse for mafia, as they know a miller would almost never be night-killed.

Which is why I will keep an eye on Khan.

but more often backfires horribly.

When they fail to get lynched (a success), I fail to see how it backfires (them getting killed).

1) you are locked into that claim.

So?
Scum who don't lock into a claim plan from the beginning are going to end up dead. Any good scum will have planned out their claim from the second they were handed out their role.
Immediately claiming is more so, but still, good scum will have a claim planned out, locked into their head with no chance of changing, whether they end up needing it or not.

as scum, this means you will not have the option of doing any of the following things:

Perhaps.

counterclaiming a power role in lylo

In a game like this (see: Konowa's specific type of mafia flip, three deaths total), do you honestly think that this would happen, anyway? And when there is no guarantee there aren't multiple power roles (this isn't a semi-open or open setup), would a counter-claim truly be a counter-claim?
And also, see below answer.

fakeclaiming an investigative/protective role with a false guilty/protect

That's what the partners of the miller claim are for.

adapting to a changing game environment such as discovering that the setup may be all vanilla, etc.

We already KNOW the setup isn't vanilla.
An Emerald Jailer and a Mafia Doctor are both dead.

Got another example that fits this?
(Also, again, that's what partners are for--bussing a bad claim such as that if it turns out to be true.)

there are many ways for you to find yourself in a situation several game days later where you are simply fucked because you locked yourself out of the right strategic move as scum.

If he lived that long. The move he made might have simple been to rolefish, like I pointed out as a joke at the time.

no matter how your claim plays out, there is just no freaking way you're living to endgame.

As scum, if I have a claim that will buy me even a day of life...that's still a day of life that I would not have had before.
And, yea, partners are made for situations like that.

one of two things will happen

False dilemma. Anything could happen to the miller claim.

a vigilante will either not believe you or have no better idea who to shoot and will take the safest vigilante shot in the history of the game of mafia

Possible, but the vig will likely have suspects of their own, and if a doctor--for example--protects the mafia miller claim, the shot fails to go through.

or an opposing scumteam/sk will come to the point where they need to start killing semi-cleared players because cleared players are the scum's SINGLE WORST NIGHTMARE and they will end up killing you.

Again, we have a known (mafia) doctor flip. What's to say there isn't another one?

As a semi-cleared player, they're likely to get protected.

Perfect for scum.

therefore we are never, ever lynching kublai khan

We shall see. It depends on his play.

and it doesn't even matter if i'm right and he's in fact town or i'm wrong and he's fakeclaiming scum

Uh, yes. Yes, it does. It makes a difference between winning the game as a pro-town player, or losing the game as a pro-town player (or winning the game as scum, mind you). It makes a huge difference.

because the problem will work itself out long before the endgame.

It's not like I'm advocating for his lynch. I'm stating how I will keep my eye on him, and how he's a suspect of mine.

continuing to waste time discussing whether or not you believe khan's claim

Discussing a claim is NEVER a waste of time.
Know what it is?
Scum hunting.

or especially considering him as a lynch candidate

Nobody should ever eliminate a player as a lynch candidate unless there is STRONG evidence to suggest they are completely cleared. It is incredibly scummy to do so.
Lynch candidate for today?
That, I can understand, even if I disagree with it.

A vote on me for my short post earlier?

Apparently. Simple solution:
Contribute more.

My goodness that is weak sauce dude.

As I noted, it is not the best reasoning in the world.

Glad I am not alone in this being my first Large Game.

Fresh players come along all the time and get slammed into Large Games. Not exactly the best place to start one's mafia career, especially if the name "Mastin" is listed amongst the player list.

Combine that with Mastin apparently being a mind-fuck specialist

Not my fault. Okay, it might be, but this is my posting style.

I really didn't have too much to say at the time.

And that's what's scummy about it:

We have three pages, already. Lots of long posts. There should be SOMETHING to comment on.

Not too sure what to make of Mastin yet

I love long posts, and I am almost always town. Do you really need anything else?

as this is my first game with him.

Hopefully not your last, either. (I have had that impact on some players)

I am nowhere near ready to vote at this point.

And if you had to, where would that vote go at this moment?

Too many people haven't even been online yet.

This, I agree with. We need more contributors. They'll fall behind if they don't log in within the next few hours.
Scratch that--they're already behind.

I do find it quite interesting that some people feel the need to vote at this stage of the game.

It's called scum hunting. People vote for their suspicions, if they view those suspicions great enough to warrant a vote?

Scumtell?

More of a null to town tell, depending on who you ask.

Possibly.

Not to most.

I don't believe voting at this stage is a scum tell John.

And most agree with you. I imagine some disagree, but not many will. Whether it's a null tell or a town tell, now, THERE you will find some disagreement.

Especially because this is a hard game with the current majority being 12.

Players?
We've had less than that?
Needed to lynch?
That's 11.

What were you saying?

woah there. do not try to involve me in your rolefishing.

From what I had read of Lynch all Lurkers, Tajo softclaimed and was forced to hardclaim in the future.

I saw, and Khan saw, a potential softclaim. Your policy in that game was to force a hard claim from the soft claim.

I fail to see how the two are really different.

softlclaims brought on by pressure = scummy = need a fullclaim

Minus the 'brought on by pressure' part, this is what I believed you to have thought. Nowhere did I see you mention that a softclaim brought on by pressure was scummy--I DID, however, see you mention that the softclaim was scummy and needed a full claim (which turned out to be correct).

possible breadcrumb = SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN MENTIONED SPECIFICALLY = DO NOT FULLCLAIM OR CONFIRM OR DENY A KILLING ROLE OR ANY OTHER KIND OF ROLE SERIOUSLY DON'T DO IT

The thing is, it didn't look like a possible breadcrumb.
It looked like a soft claim.

Where do you draw the boundary between breadcrumbing and soft claiming?

Kise definitely crossed over to the latter, in my mind.

mastin's attempt to

Not just me, either. Khan, your "clear", asked for the same thing.

What makes him excluded yet me included?

pull a fullclaim out

My wording was, originally, essentially,

"Please...tell me that I didn't hear you say what I thought I heard you just say...could you clarify?",

meaning I wanted to see if that was what I thought it was (a soft claim), or if I were mistaken.

attach my name to drawing out said fullclaim

I'd do the same to elvis if she were alive. Or Xyl if he were in the game. Or Tajo. Or pretty much anyone who stated their opinion on soft claiming being scummy and needing a full claim.

earlier in this very post you made reference to lynch all lurkers mafia

So?

and appealed to me as an authority

I've always said the same basic stuff. "ask Alduskkel about it."
"ekiM can confirm it."
"AceMarksman should back the story up." (How much do you want to bet at least one of them will search their name and find it referenced in here? )
Yadda, yadda, you get the idea.

Basically, I like to back up my points. Other people confirming it is perhaps the greatest evidence I can give.

Do you really have an issue with that?

in making a (ill-conceived) point.

I've explained this already.

but now your memory seems to very selective

1: Face it: I've got a bad memory, so if it were true that my memory wasn't telling even half the story, it wouldn't be a scum tell.
and
2: As I am about to explain, this is not the case and my memory is in no way selective.

as you are failing to take into account the same game, lynch all lurkers, where i did the exact same thing, as town, to zwetschenwasser, who flipped scum, starting on page 2.

So?
You hit scum once.
Big f-ing deal.

How many other people did you target in that game?
I imagine rather some number.
They weren't all scum, were they?
You still tunneled.
Tunneling IS anti-town. It can catch mafia and sometimes does, but when you tunnel on a townie, it only hurts the town, and this happens far more often than it does not.

so yes, i do in fact deny that it is not pro-town

Tunnel Vision is listed as being a Logical Fallacy, and the second paragraph lists how it is Anti-town in nature.

Khan brought out the fact that he was tunneled on by a townie in another game (he brought this up in 742, mind you, where I had a guilty on him--I must admit, I flat-out ignored the link. *shrug*), and both were left alive until Lylo, where the scum hammered him for a win, for example. Tunneling then was anti-town. And it is anti-town now.

and counter with the above evidence. check.

Okay, I will. I've still got the Lynch all Lurkers tab open. I'll look at your posts in isolation--let's see how many people you tunneled on.
And how many of them were scum.
You also said that you were thinking a Zwet-Elvis team (saying you were paranoid about it) the very next post after you said Zwet-Tajo. In fact, you had expanded your suspects here.
Tunneled on scum: 1-2,
Tunneled on town: 0-2 (depending on the interpretation of thinking one of the three listed is scum)

Posts later (around Here), you’ve tunneled on two more players, and think a third is likely scum.
Tunneled on scum: 2
Tunneled on town: 1-2

Of the ones listed here as your scum-team, which evidence supports you were tunneling on, only one was actually scum.

You continue calling Brian, DGB, and Xtoxm scum with Tajo, similar to what you have done this game with me and FA—let’s see how long it takes you to add another two or three names to that list.

At this point, you’ve tunneled on,
Zwet (scum), Tajo (scum), Xtoxm (town), DGB (town), and Brian (town)—
2 scum,
3 town.

Your post here again only has one actual scum in it. And yet you focused on those players a great deal, did you not?

By your defense, at least half of them should be scum, if I read your argument correctly.
They weren’t. You tunneled on mostly pro-town players. And helped get them lynched. You drove their lynches, really. So how is that not anti-town, to get three pro-town players lynched?

Statements like this

i think dgb is at least 95% likely to be scum at this point.

Showing a refusal to listen to others are what’s so anti-town about tunneling.

which you should also have been intimately aware of since you were reading the game as a replacement onto the scumteam.

I read part of the game. Not all of it. I didn't even remember Zorblag or SpyreX (and to a lesser extent, Xtoxm and DGB) were players, yet alone, what was said. Only some comments which were brought up at the end of the game that were said earlier stuck in my mind. Like, oh, the people stating that the soft claim was scummy, for example.

so that just makes you attempting to brush off a similar statement from me regarding a mastin-fallen angel pairing seem even more hollow.

This is a blatant 7-for-7 fallacy.

You were right once.
Big deal.
You're not Mr. Perfect. You're not going to be right every time.

Rofl, to be fair, your attitude is not one which I think is scummy. Your playstyle is annoying, to say the least, and you tunnel and refuse to give up, no matter how well your target defends themselves. It can work (which is why whenever it does, you gain rather the ego, in my opinion) well sometimes, but it is far from 100%. Or 50%, for that matter.

---

Okay, this was typed last night when I had an internet failure, with minor revisements when I had my internet back in the morning. Posting it now; I’ll catch up with the rest of the posts soon after.

[Mastin]

Vote: Mastin

This has to be Empking's policy day one vote, or something. <_<

For unvoting her ranom vote.

...
I'm a guy. <_<

You know, I am just going to be 100% honest with how I feel right now....

That's good. Honesty-->Towntell.

I don't know if Mastin is scum or not.

Best to assume I'm not. Because, well, I rarely am scum.

What I do know is, his style of play last night was un-constructive (to say the least) and downright distracting.

I got us out of the RCV.
Explain to me how that's unconstructive.
I've got us talking.
Discussing.
Debating.
Scum hunting.

How's that not constructive?

That being said

Unnecessarily, I might add.

it may be in the best interest of the town to vote Mastin out

Red flags have officially been raised over this comment.

whether he be scum OR town.

The goal of the town is to lynch scum.

The goal of scum is to lynch anyone but their own scum.

Policy lynches are exactly that--lynches not of their own.
Which is precisely what you are suggesting.

Yea, anyone got a tall flagpole? Definitely a huge red flag raised here.

If he flips scum,

I won't.

we score.

Again, you might as well suggest a policy lynch of Empking, Zwetschenwasser, or other players with similar playstyles.

It's similar to this policy:

"either he's scum and yay 1 less scum, or he's town and yay 1 less zwetschenwasser. " ~Moratorium
Words to live by.

If he flips town

Like I will...

then we lose a townie

1: Rolefishing for my role (you say "townie". "Townie" is a role.),

2: It is almost NEVER a good idea to lynch a pro-town player. ESPECIALLY off of Policy. It is FAR better to lynch scum, and to actually SCUM HUNT instead of a Policy Lynch.

but we also lose a HUGE distraction.

My "distraction" only lasts until the RVS is over. Then I start scum hunting.

I will reserve my vote for the moment

Scummy, considering how you've expressed a willingness to vote for me.

to see how others feel about my opinion.

Why would others' have such an impact on your opinion?
If the majority of the town would think so, sure, they can't all be scum--but any less than that, and the scum may or may not be influencing that opinion.
Are you going to wait that long?

Or are you going to wait for just a few to weigh in?

How about this option C: You want the advice of your scum buddies on whether to vote for me or not.

(why do I have the feeling I am about to be shit upon?)

Because you just made so many scummy comments, it's not even funny.

Johnny with this post single-handedly steals away my vote for such a scummy post.

Mastin Votes: Johnny

.

I am a bit surprised by how frequent and how long Mastin's posts are

Eh, I get that a lot. You'll get used to 'em eventually.

but if he has a habit of doing this early in games

Yea, I was nominated for the title of "Unabridged" for a reason.

then I'm not sure what to make of it.

Nothing special. Treat my posts no differently than those of any other player.

It is distracting in a way

Yet it works brilliantly in the long run for discussion, especially since it only lasts for the RVS before I start getting serious.

but at the same time, it generates conversation

I like this guy. He makes good observations.

and the more talk there is, the more likely chance there is for scum to slip up.

And there we have the quoted for truth opinion of the day--this guy's good.

He does it all the time

Heh. I figured there was a reason there were seven pages when there were only three before--you came online, Zaz.

Yea. I like doing what I do in the RVS.

At least, he has done so in my games with him.

I do it in most of my more recent games, so, yea, I do it often.

Well, in this case it doesn't apply

So you say...

You obv knew that and are now trying to get me lynched.

Well, duh, of course I did.

Reasons for that can be found below XD

Ah, I love playing with Zaz. So vitalizing.

Obv a lie as Rofl would never betray me

XP

right Rofl?

Eh, you never know...

Mastin is planning to use circular logic here

It's the best kind.

when I get lynched and turn up as Mafia A traitor in order to keep himself and the rest of our team safe

The government of Mastin will neither confirm nor deny the existence of this claim.

Discuss that

Zaz, you're so much fun. So much for my promise to not tell so many jokes.

Do you actually think that Khan would have roleclaimed if this were the case?

1: Yay! New feedback!

2: Wicked, you've obviously read a good portion of the game--why is that the first thing you comment on?

3: I have explained this opinion many times, though Kise should as well, considering that's his quote.

Maybe, but I kinda doubt it.

I'm keeping an eye on Khan. He's never going to leave my suspicion list because of this.

I am willing to believe Khan for now

As long as he appears pro-town, I am as well.

unless he does something scummy.

Glad that someone else agrees with me on that matter.

Although I believe his claim

At this very moment, so do I.

I would

hesitate to vote him [ufor doing something scummy[/u]

just because he RC'd miller.

This seems to conflict with the earlier opinion--

I am willing to believe Khan for now,

unless he does something scummy

.

Can you explain the inconsistency, Wicked?

I am going to pretend he is just an ordinary player

I wouldn't take it that far.

to make it fair for everybody.

I can understand this opinion, though, like I said, I disagree with it.

I am sorry, but your posts are getting too long and none of which actually include content that is helping this conversation.

How is scum hunting not helping conversation?

I think that some of your posts are just distracting.

Of course my early ones were--it was the RVS; that's what they were meant for.

But you can't call all of my posts distracting when they're scum hunting.

Are you calling scum hunting a distraction?

If I did not think that anybody else was scummy

'Cept, only scum don't think anyone is scummy.

and we had a deadline that was near

We're nowhere close--we've got weeks left.
Why state this now?

then I'd vote Mastin

Fencesitting-->Scumtell.

because he is not helping us at all

Right, scum hunting is in no way helping the rest of the town. [/sarcasm]

and I think it would be really hard to tell whether he was mafia or town.

And vote me because of it?!?
Seems like guilty-until-proven-innocent (GUPI) logic to me.

You have NO way of knowing if ANYONE is mafia or town, unless you, yourself, are mafia.

This applies to ALL players, not just me.

Why use it against just me, then?

Mastin I would like to see more contribution from you.

I'm scum hunting right now. I have been. WHAT ELSE DO YOU NEED?!?

Which of these three people do you find the scummiest?

Of those three?

Hayker gave me bad vibes last night, and Kise needs to answer a few points. At this point in time, I am thinking that Fallen Angel is likely town.

I am a bit suspicious of roflcopter

This is not surprising.

because his vote for mastin doesn't really seem to have a good reason.

Hey, he's roflcopter the tunneler. Does he need a good reason with an ego like his?

He is also trying to convince us that Fallen is mafia without giving reasons.

Rofl is a strong believer in Tarhalindur's Chainsaw Defense--defending me and attacking my attacker (rofl) would make FA scummy to him, because he thinks I am scum.

I don't know if this is his normal playstyle or what

To my knowledge, it is.

but if I didn't have any other games to base his playstyle on

His sig gives all of his completed games. You can find them easily.

then I'd vote him.

So, where is your vote going?

I would like to hear from others whether roflcopter is acting normal or not.

To my knowledge, yes, he is.

---

That's page three. I'll do page four as well.

---

"MafiaMann
is having a scumday!"
Happy S-day, Mafia Mann.

Mastin I believe you are using a lot of sarcasm in your posts

I mark my sarcasm with either the roll emot or with "[/sarcasm]".

Really, what's wrong with sarcasm?

and thats definitly not helping the town

My RVS tactics work wonders, don't they?

It does help the town.
I've gone over this a million times.
It

-Gets us out of the RVS,
-Gets us debating,
-Gets us scum hunting,
-Generally at least gives me suspects.

Now, how does that NOT help the rest of the town?

and its going to create confusion.

Only if people put some weight into my RVS tactics. They're generally worthless.

Aww, the image broke. I can't see your wonderful picture, Zaz.

Fortunately, copy image location works well. Yay!

This image answers your question and explains that we shouldn't be that sure of it, Mastin

So I'll say we use Mudkip next night to ensure our victory Twisted Evil
Who else LURVES mudkips XD?

Why did you claim?

He did claim at the best time for any miller to claim.

And for clarification, dead miller or miller?

I asked what type of Miller he is (I think I did, anyway. Meant to, if I didn't), because there are at least three. You listed death miller (who shows up as mafia upon death) and just miller (shows up as miller upon death), but there are more than just those two.

Bad vote

Yea, yea. I know.

Mudkipz say no to this!

Aww...but it's soooo much fuuuuun...!

Definitly LAL!

Yet you don't vote me. Vote for the person who isn't voting her suspicions.

Mudkipz support LAL, and so do I!

My, my, you sure say what your vote doesn't seem to support...

OMG Shocked ^^That's so LAL

Eh, I'll change it when I have the time.

As said, Mudkipz support LAL
So Mudkip LURVERS support LAL! Let's lynch Mastin XD

Don't tell me you think Kublai is town, based upon him claiming miller, right?

That was what I understood from rofl.

Yeah, it's known site-wide.

I wouldn't say that--I'd say most-of-the-site-knows, but not site-wide.

Which means that scum could also use it like this.

Yea. I know.

So, in my opinion, it doesn't say anything about his allignment.

It is, however, worthy of keeping an eye on.

Miller claiming early is of benefit

The question is...benefit to whom?

means a cop won't waste investgation on him.

The same applies to if he is scum. :/

I guess it's possible your scum claiming miller

Which is why Khan has my eye.

but it seems a sub-optimal strategy to me for scum, due to 1) the attention that's drawn to a miller claim and 2) millers being vigged is very common, so yeh.

Perhaps you failed to consider that maybe Khan tried to do something last night as scum (like, say, night-kill someone), and him panicking if it failed to go through, thinking he'll be exposed.

If scum fail to successfully carry out their action, they have reason to be afraid, in my opinion.

What's scum tell 420?

Eh, I just randomly assign scum tells with the number 42 in them.

And does this mean you consider miller claiming early as a scum tell?

RVS Shenanigans. I will keep an eye on Khan, but his claim isn't a scum tell. (Doesn't mean it's a town tell, though.)

I guess this is actually a fair point

If you want to put any real weight on my RVS tactics, sure, go ahead and bandwagon rofl's logic.
Really.
It was the RVS,
And not having fun's a scum tell.

and although I dont' consider him as good as confirmed, I understand the position.

As do I. I can understand someone thinking that, but I definitely do not agree with the opinion.

The mastin proceeds to unvote here;

Of course I do.
Khan was my RVS vote.
In reality, he's worthy of keeping an eye on,
But not worthy of a vote.

Why did you unvote here?

Keeping a random vote on needlessly is pointless and unproductive.

Sure it's no longer the "rvs" but, there's no harm keeping your vote.

It's no longer the RVS. My vote was a RVS vote. Simple conclusion: remove RVS vote, for it is no longer useful.

Don't see why I would keep it on, unless I was seriously, seriously suspecting Khan's claim. (I have minor suspicions of it--not enough for a vote.)

Looks more like you unvoted b/c rofl called you on it.

Again, why keep a vote on someone if they're not your primary suspect?
Khan's worthy of keeping an eye on. Not worthy of keeping a vote on.

Well, Idk you could always read the information and see what you think of it?

Exactly.

What do you mean "which is probably what he wants".

He's accusing me of wanting to cause confusion and have people not know what to do with my posts, of course.

Pffffft it sucks and you know it

I've explained why it's a good tactic several times. I've yet, other than the explanation of it being confusing, to hear a good, solid reason as to why it doesn't work.
It gets us out of the RVS within an hour,
It gets discussion going,
It gets us scum hunting.
What more do you need?

As for Mastin behaving differently

I'm erratic.

well I've read/reading along with a few of his games

Considering my post length...
That takes some serious skill.

and he appears to be consistent in all of them, so yeh it seems the "norm" so to speak.

I wouldn't say I'm consistent. Mostly consistent, sure, but some games do have notable differences.

This seems weird to me.

I agree.

It's like "you're ok for now, but I may find you scummy in the future" kinda thing.

Yea--fence sitting.

erm, what's the point of this?

We all want to know. :/

Mastin do you consider bandwaggoning to be a scum tell/scummy?

Depends on how it is done.
With little/no/poor/repeated from another's reasoning, yes.

With their own, good, darn-solid logic, no.

So rofl is scummy for thinking Mastin is scum

Yea, I disagree with that as well.

yet rofl brings up some valid points.

Like I said, you can think someone's scummy (or even know that they're scum), yet still admit that they do raise some good points. I don't really see the problem with it.

This sounds rather strange

Not to me, it doesn't.

so can you please clarify what you mean here?

Eh, fair request. Don't really see the point, though.

You accept Mastin is being mastin

Because I am.

however rofl seems like rofl to me so far.

Well, he hasn't played with rofl before. From what I've seen and heard, I believe this is normal rofl play, but to my knowledge, FA hasn't played with Rofl before (but he has played with me).

Not really a large issue. For many, I imagine it's vice-versa.

If you're going to use meta to excuse one players actions

I have no problem with this.

then surely it's strange not to apply this to everyone?

If he knows about rofl's play, then, yes.
Otherwise, not really.
I've been called scum(my) by those who don't know my playstyle, and then they reverse their opinion later on.

Also Kise's vote seems perfectly reasonable.

And I agree. It's not the best reasoning in the world, but it did have reasoning.

Gonna end this here as it's probably long enough

It's not long until it matches the length of my average post.

will continue it in another post.

I suppose it'd be fair to do the same with me, when I finish page four. Start a fresh post for page five.

You and I seem to be of a similar kind, Zaz.
The vig direct thing you noted, of course, was me drawing reactions, as at the time, I had not declared the RVS over.

It makes him worthy of watching. Keeping an eye on him after the claim is a very good idea.

As I explained, I didn't even see 33. I didn't know it existed due to a simulpost, and the first new post I saw was FA's.

And no, we're here to lynch scum, anti-town players =/= scum.

By the way...did I mention that Faraday is obviously a pro-town player?

Good posts like this make it so that I'm already putting him on my pro-town player list.

---

Okay, that's page four.
"OH, LORITHIA, MY EYES!!!!!!!"
Sorry, sorry, I was holding back as much as I could... :/

[Mastin]

Also there's a shit load of people who have yet to post. This game has started pretty damn fast.

Mafia rule # 242:

If Mastin is in a game, the game will go very fast.
Mafia rule #342: If Both Mastin AND ZazieR are in a game, that game will get ten pages per day.

Whoa! 5 pages already?

That would be mostly my fault.

Man! I'll read through them all... when I can...

Yea...

But first of all, yay! A mafia doctor (or whatever it is) has been eliminated!

This is the reverse-"well, that sucks"-tell.

Auto-FoS: ckool.

It's alright to be happy that a mafia doctor is dead.
To EXPRESS that, however, is scummy.

i would like you to read it and then explain why you think its still in the town's best interest to spend time and energy debating the miller claim.

Oh, I don't think we should waste time debating it--I think we should, however, keep an eye on Khan for it.

Do you consider someone self-metaing as a defence to be scummy?

Of course not. I do it all the time.

Would you consider someone defending you by saying "It's Mastin's meta" to be scummy?

Rather the opposite, I'd consider that person fairly pro-town instantly.

Would you consider someone attacking you by saying "Mastin's meta is different" to be scummy?

Wrong?
Yes.
Scummy?
Not really.

Would you consider someone attacking you by saying "Mastin's playing to his scum meta" to be scummy?

Wrong?
Definitely.
Scummy?
Possibly, but probably not.
Depends on how they present the case.

If your answer isn't the same for all the above questions, give a reason why.

Must I do that again?
*shrugs*
I hate repeating myself a million times on the subject. I can do it if necessary.

@Wickedestjr: You are a very cautious player.

That's a scum tell.

It's Confirmation Bias.
I just linked it in my earlier post.

I'd think that anyone with the title Mafia Scum should've at least seen it once.

I had initially overlooked this post, but Kublai Khan and FA bringing it up made me re-look at it. Very definite possible scumslip, right there.

i believe Mastin mentioned somthing about to mafia factions early on.

The difference is,
I did it in the RVS. I was joking.
You did it seriously, out of the RVS.
That's a scum tell.

if he's serious about the game

I'm serious once I say the RVS is over...for the most part.

or what color his socks are...

I wear two layers of socks (Washington got some COLD weather this winter.)--the outer layer is always white, the inner layer is sometimes white, sometimes gray.

Also, Mastin had a link to some of his town tell/scum tells

Yup, Mastin's Insane Tells. Most people ignore it, though. :/

I've managed to confuse myself with my last post. Allow me to rephrase the second half: "One of Mastin's town-tells was that someone sticks with what they were betting was true. You're pretty sure that it was an opposing faction. So does that make you more likely to be town?"

That actually makes sense. (Though the tell you mention was meant to apply to people taking/offering bets. I suppose it can be extended in the future.)



If this is a serious tell from this guy, ckool and I will get along rather well.

*Raises hand*
Here.
High five Mastin for keeping the activity high, while I was offline

High five ZazieR for keeping activity high while I was offline!

And yeah, that''s Rofl for you

I am not really surprised.

Mastin listed you as a member of Mafia A and you weren't sure if he was completely joking?

That is a good point.

I took Mastin's opening post as a joke calling out and ribbing people he had a history and was familiar with.

Actually, Mafia's a player I haven't seen before. I listed him because his name starts with M as well as mine.

But, yea, it generally involves people I've played with.

You're making some pretty reaching arguments which seem to betray a deeper knowledge of the game and it's setup than I've got. All I know is that there are 3 kills. Since the flavor is pretty minimal, the fact that the Cerulean Mafia has a name would strongly indicate that there are at least 2 mafia groups. The third kill could be a serial killer, a vigilante, or a third mafia group. The listed causes of death (Slaughtered/Murdered/Annihilated) give us no hints as to which group did what.

We can, however, make the assumption that the Cerulean mafia didn't kill themselves, meaning they made one of the other kills.

Your wild speculation about multiple mafia doctors is unhelpful

Well...I like symmetrical mafia teams as a player. (As a mod, not so much, but that's just to mess with the players. )

Why aren't you rejoicing that we have a lucky vig?

For someone who just criticized two players for assuming who did the kill...
This seems like rather the assumption.

And for Mod's sake, ckool5000, are you seriously following someone else's list of wiki scum & town tells while you're playing in a game with that same person? WTF?

I see nothing wrong with it. If you play with Tar, are you forbidden to use his Standard Tells? Not really. (Then again, Tar's a more established player than I am. Still...)

Finally caught up.

Oh, wow. Someone read all of what I said? That takes skill.

I was afraid Mastin would come back and start posting again before I finished.

Zaz works as well, you know.

Mastin's wall of text annoys me to no end

The day I see someone enjoy my walls will be a surprise to me.

but there is nothing inherently scummy about it.

I find long posts rather pro-town.

Since it is his MO it is a null tell.

Yea, pretty much. I'd have long posts as scum as well in an effort to look pro-town.

At least it has sparked discussion rather quickly.

Oh, I LOVE it when people see the true purpose of my tactics!

Dissecting his posts

I like dissecting. Dissecting's cool. I do it all the time in my posts.

it is mostly fluff

Early-on, of course.
Later-on, I became more serious.

Now, I'm in full scum-hunting mode.

but there is some scum hunting buried in there.

And with luck, this will increase throughout the day. Depends on how much others choose to joke.

I'll consider him pro-town for now.

Good assumption.

rolfcopter is tunneling.

Yea, tell me about it. :/

I have no problem with this.

I have no problem with his tunneling. His choice of targets, now that's a little more worrisome to me. <_<

I do have a problem with his citing of single cases to prove his points on tunneling and scum calling.

I've pointed out the flaw in that logic as well.

Furthermore, there are differing viewpoints on the miller roleclaim so there is no reason to quash the debate.

Eh, I'd prefer not to discuss the claim, but the person instead--is Khan scummy, or not?, instead of Is Khan's claim scummy, or not?

Anytime players want to make a stand on a topic provides information for the town to work with.

Eh, I wouldn't say always, but I would say it happens most of the time.

Leaning scum.

Meh, he's leaning town to me due to meta.

Hayker opens by committing and pointing out his own scumtell.

Yea, it does look a tad bit bad, doesn't it?

He takes issue with rolf's quick push from RVS even while complimenting rolf's reasoning.

Like I've explained, I don't really see the problem with that.

RVS is necessary to spark discussion

Not necessary--just fairly important.

but with Mastin around RVS doesn't need to be too long.

Yea, pretty much.
(Oh, how I wish I could fit all of the comments like this in my sig...)

Working my way forward, more coming.

Wait, I thought you said you were caught up?

And, well, you commented on three players.

What about the rest of the people who have posted? At the time of that post,

Achilles, ckool, Empking, FA, Far, Hayker, Johnny, Kise, Kublai Khan, Mafia, Me, Rofl, Wicked, and Zazie.

And Hayker continues to add totally nothing except for opinions that are easy to back-track.
Good second choice.

I actually agree. I don't agree with the rofl inconsistency point against him, but he is a suspect of mine.

Johnny Rotten's last post is a terrible one.

There's a reason I am voting him.

Advocating the lynch of a player you don't think is scum is wrong.

And scummy.

Furthermore, he holds off on voting on it because he wants to hear how others feel is fear of commitment, which both interferes with forming lasting relationships and is a scum tell.

I wouldn't call it always a scum tell.
In a game of this size, though, it is at least scummy.

Achilles is likely going to be lurking.

A shame if true; I liked his post.

And you shouldn't trust Mastin's tells.

People are free to trust my tells if they want to. They're insane, and I'd be surprised if even two other than myself do, but still, my MITs can be used by anyone if they wish to.

@ZazieR: Way to look for convenient bandwagons to hop on.

If you were a convenient wagon, you'd have far more votes than you currently do. (One.)

Quoted For Truth.

well seems you guys have been quite active.

My fault, along with Zaz.

Mastin your sarcasm can create confusion

In the RVS, my jokes and sarcasm are mostly marked, but can be possibly not.
Out of the RVS, I always mark them appropriately.

Why do you push for this point, when there's no sarcasm not marked as such that means anything?

[sarcasm]Perhaps I should stop using sarcasm because it's apparently a scum tell.[/sarcasm]

Jesus Mastin.

XP

Need to cut the crap.

:/

Your obviously mafia. xD

...

K. so. I'm gonna have to go re-read through all this crap.

If you've read it, surely you have SOMETHING to contribute?

FoS: Empking's Alt.
I post reasons later

I am looking forward to it.

mastin, tell me how many people i have to be suspicious of before i'm no longer "tunneling" on each and every one of them?

If you focus on the same group of players until they're dead (which you did in Lynch all Lurkers, for the most part), and pretty much refuse to consider other suspects, and refuse to listen to the logic of those you are accusing, that's tunneling.

because you just went down my various and changing suspicions throughout the later parts of lynch all lurkers and labeled each of them as individually tunneling.

The thing is...
The suspicions didn't change.
They stayed the same.

i would say that being vocally suspicious of more than one person and pursuing cases on these people all at once is in fact the exact opposite of tunneling.

...No, if you do it consistently on those same people throughout the game, and not on others...that's still tunneling. It's just a wide tunnel with multiple people instead of one.

but if i see continued evidence that you are scum (which i do)

ANY post written by ANY player, no matter HOW good it is, can STILL be picked apart and labeled as scummy if done correctly.
You can see evidence anywhere.

If your evidence is unlikely/improbable/illogical/etc./not the best conclusion, then more likely than not, it's going to be tunneling.

i will continue to present it and will not be dissuaded simply by you or anyone else telling me to stop with the tunnel-vision and i will not be dissuaded by you stating that your own defense is valid and therefore i should back off.

I have no problem with pursuing your targets.
Pursuing your targets, refusing to listen to their logic, coming to the most scummy conclusion instead of the most probable one,
Now,
THAT is a problem.

I find them useful

As do I.

and actually enjoy reading them.

...Remember my earlier point?

Yea.
This is the day that I will be surprised.

He has a sort of chaotic logic

Insane, really.
Mastin:
Insane Rampage.

which is somewhat similer to my own.

I'm really starting to like some of the players in this game who have similar beliefs as mine.

---

Okay, I am caught up. That took a while.

[Mastin]

Only scum or bad town will put weight into my RVS comments.

Agreed.

Moving on, shall we?
Johnny needs to post more. In fact, LOTS of people need to post more.

[Mastin]

1 I was part of a game called international mafia in which we had 15 pages in pre game of good info i dont find anything wrong with reading into RVS a little other wise whats the points of RVS.

The point of the RVS is to get discussion going.

People intentionally do random/scummy stuff to accomplish this.

Which is why, in serious scum hunting, you ignore the RVS.

2 you agree that fardays town?

Yes.

On what basis

His posts. I linked in one of my posts above one of his posts, and said that posts/quotes such as the one provided make me think he's pro-town. He raises good points, amongst others.

That enough of a basis for you?

same as rofl gut feeling.

Well, yea, my gut's backing up my reasoning--a good tell meaning that my read on the player which my gut backs up my reasoning...is probably going to be correct.

3 yes it seems we have 4 or 5 people who post a decent amount

This was not the point.
The point is that we have only eighteen of twenty-one living players saying anything, and that of those, many needed to post a lot more.

You think there's 2 scum teams?

Yea. The Mafia Doctor flip gave a very specific type of mafia. Meaning likely more than one faction exists.

Don't break my heart here Zazie

Fine, Zaz, just shatter it instead of breaking it.

what do you know???

Zaz knows to read the results of night zero post, that's what.

But..... what's wrong with laughing at [regretfully] giving Mastin more ammo to type about?

Use emotes, like my wink.

Trying to point out a trivial-scumtell = a scumtell. Shame on you!

So you think pointing out my MITs is a scumtell?

I'm keeping the vote on Rotten for those comments he made

And I agree.

(in the post where he says he wants Mastin lynched;

Yea, we know.

can't be bothered to link or quote.

I already did this.

You all know which post I'm referring to, hopefully).

Yup.

Wicked speaks quite strangely

I agree.

I feel like giving him the finger (of suspicion, of course

It was noteworthy. FoS-worthy, not so sure.

but I won't judge someone who hasn't posted much

Isn't the fact that he hasn't said much enough to judge him already? :/

and only commented on the Miller issue.

When there were many other issues to address, mind you.

I get the feeling that rofl & Far are town.

I do as well.

They'll be useful players for the town.

Far, yes. Rofl, only if he stops tunneling on me. <_<

And, despite how positive I feel about Mastin

Yay.

I'm not sure what I can say to convince or persuade rofl.

I don't know if there is a way, Kise.

I'll leave it up to him to have faith in Mastin.

Yea...probably not happening. :/

FoS: MafiaMann

Quoted for truth.

Needless speculation and focusing too much on useless material from RVS/Night 0.

Not exactly the reason I'd give.

IGMEO ckool.... just saying..

Aww, but he's soo much like me...

---

Going to eat my supper, now.

[Mastin]

It means I've got my eye on you.

...But wasn't it Kise who said it? :/

[Mastin]

(Please note that this is typed at 1:30 am. If my responses seem less logical than normal for even me, that's why.)

I will post something of more signifigance than this when things slow down a bit

This is kinda, well, active lurking.

More or less skimmed, Mastin.

Nice to know.
But what'd you get from just the skim?
And do you plan to follow through with a reread?

I skipped a couple of pages due to walls of text

Eh, it happens when people skim. (Psst. When I'm dead/spectating a game, I skim walls of text as well. Alive and well, not so much [the proof is in the posts ], but it's fine when I'm dead.)

and not caring that much.

You didn't care about the scum hunting done in there?
Could you explain this, please?

No offense.

None taken.

So. He didn't have anything to say.

Empking's...well, Empking. He always does that. :/

He kinda just showed up and waggoned.

Like I said, I think I'm Empking's policy vote or something. <_<

Idk. Just don't feel right about him.

Yea...Empking's weird like that. I'm kinda surprised every game where he lives a long time. :/

He has my FoS.

But why no vote?

The "3am before bed post"

I love writing those!
...Too bad my internet pretty much only has a ten percent chance of working at that time. <_<

Perhaps, I don't know.

Mafia did it as well, mind you.

I didn't quite read it like that,

At the very least, Kublai Khan was being inconsistent--he called two people out for debating what killed who, and then goes off to speculate that the mafia doctor kill was a really lucky vig.

I'll let KK explain it though

Agreed. I want this as well.

as I'm interested in seeing what he says.

Yea...it's always best to hear it from the player accused.

Alright, this is reasonable

A rare moment from me.

I enjoy reading mafia games almost as much as playing in them

Ah...it's amazing how many players in here have similarities to me. If you combine many of the better traits in all the players here, you might theoretically end up with a clone of me.

I guess, although the reasons for finding rofl suspicious were rather, sup par, I felt.

That I agree with. But again, I can see where the reasoning is coming from.

I'm sure ye bastards will post up a storm during the night and give me loads to read

Yup. 3+ wall of text order, coming right up! That'll be five responses, please. Pay via cash, credit, or preferably, post.

My Role PM just says I'm a regular miller.

It seems like poor practice to not PM the mod for clarification on what type of miller you are.

Please do so now.

I haven't checked iamausername's meta-mod to see if he's the type of mod to get creative with secret roles.

...Or, you can just ask Iamausername what type of miller you are and save yourself the trouble of searching through Iamausername's modded games.

So I'm a regular miller

It's a decent assumption, but...

as far as I know.

Again, you should ask the mod to make sure.

It doesn't show crap.

It seems to do so for me. It showed an inconsistency, which it is your job to explain and clarify.

In context I was asking ckool5000 why he thought "scenario A" happened and not an alternative "Scenario B".

Your words, were, essentially, "why didn't you consider the possibility that we have a really lucky vig?"

There are many possible scenarios.
You called him out for assuming one, and then seemed to assume a scenario yourself.
When other options clearly exist.
This is what needs explaining.

I never said that "Scenario B" is what I thought happened.

It definitely seemed that way to me, Khan.

Kise's comment definitely wasn't a breadcrumb and it read like a hardclaim.

It seemed stronger than a breadcrumb, weaker than a hard claim. (Soft claim)

Kise is claiming it was an entrapment ploy, so there ya go.

That's not what I interpreted Kise's response as. I interpreted his response as a bit of wifom and called you out for the "rolefishing".

And I definitely don't like the "entrapment ploy" idea.

I agree with you that it's odd that roflcopter didn't include me in the rolefishing accusation.

Yea...that's tunneling for ya.

But I guess it looks like roflcopter is serious about his desire to not lynch me.

Doesn't change how he was inconsistent.

I don't think anyone ignored it because it was "Mastin being Mastin".

They ignored it because it was my RVS tactics.

I think it got mostly ignored because it was the first post in the game.

RVS, actually.

But I did mention in post 33 that I thought Mastin was the type of person who would enjoy joking about how scummy he was when he actually was scum.

Because jokes are so fun.

He agreed with me in post 40.

Yea, I believe I did.

I was referring to your suggestion that there are mirror mafia groups.

Eh, it's a decent assumption.

It's just a really random assumption to make.

Random? Yea. Unnecessary? Sure. But it is a likely and fairly reasonable assumption to make, in my opinion.

Unless, of course, you're also a Mafia Doctor.

It's not so much that he made the assumption, but rather, that he pointed it out which makes the difference to me.

In which case it's a perfectly reasonable assumption.

Again, nothing wrong with assuming mirror scum groups. Pointing out the assumption is where problems probably lie, though.

I hate stuff like this

As do I.

Why was it so important to get in your FOS announced right away before you had time to post an actual reason?

Yea...Redith, you kinda need to answer questions such as this.

It's an FOS, not a vote.

*Nods*. Mm-hm. Khan's Correct.

Why don't you just wait until you have time to post, then post both your FOS and your reason(s).

I'd like for you to both
1: Answer why you didn't do that,
and
2: Start doing it.

EBWOP: Reason given.

I got the feeling that it wasn't the entire reasoning, but that it's all he was saying.

Was so short he could have written it the first time.

Theoretically, yes, if that's his only reason.

Active Lurker.

Hopefully not.

@Mastin 187: Why aren't you taking my questions (about meta) seriously?

Eh, remind me what your questions were, again?

Didn't you always brag about how you caught Kronos & jeffcole1 in Newbie 742 according to their RVS comments?

Yea, THEIR RVS comments.

Mastin != Jeff,
Mastin != Kronos,
Mastin != any other MS.net person.

MY RVS comments shouldn't have weight put on them.
Others, more likely than not, at least glance at them from time to time.

IIRC, it's one of your "Insane Tells".

Actually, the exact tell is buddying up early-on.

How come you're asking to be judged differently?

...Because I'm different from most players.
Why else?
Are you really surprised by this very true response?
Really, I'm different. Most things like that don't apply to me.

Dear lord, i hate you Mastin.

Zazie did it too!...

Will read up after beach trip tomorrow.

Good to hear.

damn.... hate you...

Now, now, one's enough. You only need to say that you hate me once.

Mastin- Seems perfectly normal to me.

As normal as I can get, that is.

Lots of scumhunting.

I'm sure many here would disagree.
Personally, I agree, but that's mostly just me.

Pro-town.

Yup.

ZazieR- Mastin with shorter posts.

XP

Roflcopter- Other then a ton of tunneling, not much suspicious about him.

Especially since tunneling is normal from him.

ckool5000- Little content, comments more then really analyzes.

Known as the tell, Information Instead of Analysis, IIoA, for short.

What he does analyze isn't extremely helpful. Attempting to scumhunt.

Yea...this seems to be my general feel for him right now as well.

Faraday- Seems extremely pro-town.

Agreed.

Hayker- Backtracks and doesn't seem to be seriously scumhunting. Neutral at best.

This is a fair assessment.

Johnny Rotten- Waiting for his big post, but the case Kise put on him seems really weak.

This shouldn't determine alignment...

Kise- Weak vote on JR.

I agree, the original reasoning was weak and false.

Tried to put up a reason for it, and failed.

His later reasoning on Johnny's later post, however, was good, as it was mostly my reasoning as well.

Possible softclaim of a killing role, then backtracks. Neutral leaning towards scummy.

I agree with this.

MM- Seems newbtown

Explain to me how someone having a scum day can POSSIBLY be newbtown.

Who's your top suspect of those you listed?

Seriously though, it seems you're mainly attacking Rofl for his playstyle in post 169.

Not so much attacking, as pointing out the flaws in it. (Like how when he targets a pro-town player, it backfires.)

Why is that?

He's targeting me. I don't think he's scum, but I will try to discourage him from his insistence that I am scum.

I do have one random, off topic question.

Sure. One only.

What the hell is a "scum-day"?

Anniversary for joining MS.net day. Mine, for example, is October Eight, and would be my first Scumday.

Is that just a fancy name for birthday?

Actually...we have those as well.

I tend to look at things in a fairly black and white kind of way.

And this is scummy. NOTHING is absolute in the game, nothing black, nothing white. Anything can be a scum tell, yet occasionally done by town, anything can be a town tell, yet still done by scum.

Nothing's black and white in mafia.

Yes, the object of the game is to lynch scum (from a town standpoint)

Which lynching me will not be doing...

or to lynch town (from a mafia standpoint)

Which would happen if lynching me...

with the ultimate objective being to eliminate all of the other side.

It's the objective EVERY MINUTE OF THE GAME.
From Night Zero.
To Day One.
To Night One.
To Day Two.
And so on and so on.
Town want mafia dead.
Mafia want town dead.
It's true from any point in time, including day one.

Now, my call for other people opinions on Mastin was made with the ultimate objective in mind

How so?
How is asking other people going to, in any way, scum hunt?

which is winning the damn game!!!

Note how he fails to specify that he has a town win condition.

Face it, Mastin (at least so far) has been THE talk of the game.

ONLY in the RVS.
We've had FAR more conversation than that.
Kublai Khan's miller claim.
Mafia's attitude,
ckool's attitude,
Kise's "softclaim",
etc.

I am only one of MANY discussion points in the game.

If he is town, then all he is doing is taking attention away from finding the scum.

On the contrary, that's the opposite of what I'm doing. People can conclude I am town from the talk, and instantly know that I am not scum.
And people who conclude I am scum will fall under heavy attack in the future for being likely scum.

Discussion on a player is pro-town.
A pro-town player WANTS discussion on them,
For it is a way for people to think they are pro-town.

By defending themselves well from others' attacks.

That's a good part of scum hunting.

All the mafia members can sit back and fly UTR, because good ole Mastin will be drawing all the heat on himself.

Again, this is blatantly false. People attacking me draw suspicion to themselves, and if they're scum, that's bad. If they're town, they have to defend themselves, as I have to defend myself. Discussion is always pro-town, no matter who it is aimed at. Drawing the heat temporarily to catch the scum (you) is definitely worth it.

THAT is why I feel he makes for the best lynch at this point.

The thing is, that's called a Policy Lynch, which--site-wide--is considered fairly scummy.

A few other players that have experience with Mastin say that he plays all of his games like this

Making it a null tell, making it something which only mafia will attack me for (note that you ARE attacking me for it).

from start to finish.

They never said that.

We've stated that I play the way I do in the RVS--that gets discussion going.

And then I start scum hunting, defending myself, and lashing back and those who are attacking me and are scummy. (You, for example)

That's incredibly pro-town.

In my opinion, he is a detriment to the town

Again, you fail to explain how anything other than my random voting stage posts are a detriment to the rest of the town, when it is clear that my attitude since the RVS has changed, and that I am now seriously scum hunting. You've yet to explain how scum hunting is in ANY way harmful to the town.
You can't,
Because it isn't.

and should be lynched.

Again, this is called a Policy Lynch, something incredibly scummy to even suggest.

Now, the reason that I did not want to vote before is simple

You're lying. I can tell even from just this that you are.
It's never that simple.

the game JUST started!!

So?!?

The deadline is what, 3 weeks away?

That doesn't mean you can't vote for two weeks, or anything.

Not voting-->Showing Caution-->Scum tell.

I didn't see the need to do that yet

And you were called out for it.

but apparently my opinion was the opposite of "good game logic", hence my above vote.

Right, so...
You wanted to hear from everyone before voting...
And yet vote only after hearing a few opinions about why you're wrong.
[sarcasm]That's soooooo pro-town of you. Johnny.[/sarcasm]

I do have one hypothetical question I would like to ask.

Sure, go ahead.

Kublai Khan has claimed Miller.

We are aware of this.

If, by some happenstance, the cop in this game were to investigae KK on night 0, would the result that he/she received change anything?

The cop would receive the report that indicates the miller is guilty--sane cops would get guilty on a miller, insane cops would get innocent...

The reason I ask is simple.

Stop lying about your reason being simple.

the question has been kinda bugging me since last night (real time, not game time), when a lot of talk was on KK and his claim.

The answer should've been made clear from that conversation.

Oh, and you just ADMITTED that there was talk about Khan and his claim, which is NOT talk about me, contradicting your MAIN reason for VOTING ME.
Inconsistency-->Scumtell.

I kept thinking about the above scenario and couldn't make heads or tails of whether or not it would change anything.

It changes the results, most of the time.

BTW, I feel as though I am neglecting to answer a question posed to me earlier.....and to be honest, I am too lazy right now to go looking for it.

I know the feeling. :/

So, if it is your question that I missed, please re-post, or direct me to the original one, and I will be happy to!

I'll look to see what I have directed at you.

As long as the game is Zazie-free, this would be correct.

So true.

Also, stop responding to things that aren't aimed at you >.<

Eh, it's in my nature. Bad habit, I know...

[Mastin]

Aren't there only two?
Mafia, of course, would be the scummier of the two, as the other would be me.

You really don't think that Mastin and his bizarre, mind-fuck style of gameplay has been more of a talk than KK?

Johnny...you just don't get it, do you?
You said that I was the main talk of the day.

It's clear that is not the case.

Most people are scum hunting.
The best way to do that is to ignore my RVS shenanigans.

Maybe the quality of talk is better in the KK side

Which AUTOMATICALLY would make it a stronger discussion topic than me.

but the sheer quantity has got to be in Mastin's camp.

And then, after a post or two of dissatisfaction at my posting length/style/RVS tactics, they barely mention me again and move onto scum hunting.

I understand what the role of the millar is.

Then you wouldn't be asking this question in the first place, now, would you, Johnny?

What I mean to ask is, would it make any difference if the cop were to have investigated KK night 0

Again, if you weren't lying, you should know that the cop would get whatever result indicates Khan's guilty.

and then come forward with his result?

After one night only of investigating?
Bad idea.

Would the guilty or not guilty verdict change anything?

No, it would not.

It's okay, been wrong before, will be wrong again.

If you're admitting you're wrong, Johnny, to everything you had said before (Zaz was countering it all, including your reason for voting me), then why are you still voting me?
Inconsistency, perhaps?

You're not scum hunting.

Yea...he has my vote for a reason.

Policy lynches are bad

Agreed. Look at their play and determine from THAT if they're scum or town.

policy lynches on players adding contribution (and fucking loads of it) to the game are amazingly stupid.

And a huge mistake, which always ends up only making people angry afterwards and normally go hard after the person who pushed for it.

And he's not "taking attention away from finding scum"

I *might* have been in the RVS in the eyes of others, but out of the RVS?
That's scum hunting, me contributing, me finding scum.

that only happens if you're lazy.

Or if you put too much weight into my RVS tactics.

Just read/skim his posts if you wish

Most do. :/

but I really don't see what's so bad about him so far

Most people consider them long.

since when is death miller a normal role anyway?

Since people from epicmafia moved to MS.net. (Epicmafia millers, if night-killed, show up as millers. If lynched, they show up as a mafia goon, though.)

My Role PM says Emerald Miller.

Why didn't you say so earlier? When claiming, say you were an Emerald Miller?
Any specific reason?
Also,
Mind explaining how your role, flavor-wise, would fit into this game?

I assumed that if I was a death miller (or other miller variant), then iamausername would have told me.

BAD assumption.

But if you insist, I'll double check with iamausername.

Yes. Yes, I do.

That STILL leaves MONTHS, meaning it's kinda hard to think of you as a newbie player.

---

For sanity's sake, I'll be trimming down my post length for all of ya.

Also, this is day two; we won't have to wait much longer before requesting prods of the players who haven't posted here at all.

[Mastin]

@Mastin- It's still only D1.

Real-life days.
In fact, it's been over 48 hours since d1 started, correct? (Or was that 24? My memory sucks. :/)

Anyway,

Mod: Are prods in order?

(Or was that three days? :/)

(granted i think at this point it would have been hard for mastin to NOT mention something)

At the moment, though, I am definitely leaning towards ckool being town. His style of mostly defensive posts reminds me of some of my games. The games where I don't post a great deal, and when I do post, it's mostly defensive. Most of said games, I was town, mind you.

2.) saying that "lol" is a scumtell.

I believe I heard at least two people here agree with that tell--are they scummy as well for it?

HoS: Johnny Rotten

Why don't you vote, then?

1.) Wanting to lynch Mastin on playstyle rather than post content or any evidence at all.

Yea...this is the main point against him.

Especially since mastin's been one of the most active scum hunters.

Yup.

no reason to lynch him, at least early on. it's exactly what an actual miller should have done. the most interesting part is basically rofl's reaction, when he says kublai is as good as confirmed town. i have the idea he basically said this as an attempt to draw out people who disagree and think the claim was scummy, otherwise that assumption doesn't make a lot of sense to me. i know rofl made a post about the drawbacks of scum claiming miller, but it assumes that kublai would have thought about all those factors as scum and therefore not thought it was a good idea.

This gets a massive quote for truth.

He makes it incredibly hard to catch up if you miss anything.

Zaz does it, too!

I'm a regular Emerald Miller.

You didn't answer one of my questions--

Why didn't you immediately say you were an Emerald Miller?
You initially said just Miller.

I show up as scum on Investigations

There is not a miller around who does not. :/

but will be revealed as town after death.

Revealed as a townie, or a miller?

I don't understand the question. The flavor is that the role is called "Emerald Miller". I guess it fits into the game because it makes sense for an Emerald Miller to live in Emerald City. (This is a pretty dumb question. Am I missing something special?)

It had a purpose, involving how much flavor text you're given in your PM. (Like why you're a miller, why you came to Emerald City, etc. Standard Flavor stuff.)

Dude, I wasn't going to waste my time listing every possible alternative scenario and sequentially ask why he didn't pick each one.

You should've. At least list two possibilities, in order to make sure you're getting the point across.

I picked the most radically extreme opposite example from his assumption and went with that.

But, again, why did you only list one? Why not at least two? Sure, you don't have to do all (although I find that to be helpful), but that doesn't mean you should only do just one...

"why didn't you consider the possibility that we have a really lucky vig?" does not equal "I think we had a lucky vig, how about you?"

"why didn't you consider the possibility that we have a really lucky vig?" can have several interpretations. The most common two that come to my mind are
1: Inside knowledge. Like scum, who made another kill, and by extent, know the other kill was likely a lucky vig, in this scenario.
2: A breadcrumb to one's own role--impossible, considering how you claimed plain ol' miller.

Can you understand the interpretation of your post, now?

I asked 4 questions about metaing.

Hmm...Want me to go digging for them again?

You put smileys on half the answers

Smileys do not always equal a not-serious answer. Normally, yes, but if you want to make sure, just ask; I'll answer serious, semi-serious, or a joke.

so I assume you were giving joking sarcastic answers

Poor assumption. I assume this was not the RVS, correct?
Then it's very doubtfully a joking/sarcastic comment. (Although possible.)

then you refused to explain yourself.

You only recently brought up the point, again. I posted an answer, be it serious or joke, I'd need to see my actual response to be sure. You didn't ask for an explanation. You asked why I wasn't taking your meta questions seriously, which in turn, makes me post the answer that I did.

You've mentioned several times that you're no longer joking around and that you're scum-hunting

I am.

but it still feels like you're not taking the game seriously.

Blame Zaz.

Hypocrisy is kinda a big scum-tell.

If it were to be hypocritical, sure.

But, really, it's not.

People using my RVS comments are scummy because I am ME--I am KNOWN to do this regardless of alignment, making it a null tell. The pro-town response is to ignore my RVS posts until I declare, at the end of one of my long posts, "Okay, the RVS is over." At which point, I scum hunt.

Me using others' RVS comments is fine. They don't have their meta to support behaviors such as that.

I see no way to make that into a hypocrisy.

I'm different.
Rules such as that RVS one that is part of one of my MITs don't apply to me.

Your posting style may be unique

Enough by itself, in my opinion, to seal the deal on the difference.

but you're just as human as the rest of us.

So?
Humanity has nothing to do with what tells apply to who, and when.

And being human means that you commit tells as scum.

Yea, of course I do. But that isn't one of them.

Why so much defense of JR?

Actually, it's attacking you. The only way it's a defense is if FA's Chainsaw Defensing, a tell which, as the wiki article states, requires for either the person doing it, or the person being defended, to flip scum.

My name honestly did not have to be brought up in order to save-face for JR (you later say I'm leaning towards the scummy side, which makes it seem like I'm scum attacking a townie, know what I mean?).

Yea, I get the idea.

It's your tell, you know.

[Mastin]

Okay, free time's a plenty. Time to catch up on the game.

[Mastin]

I'm waiting for bigger scum-behavior from hayker & FA, but IGMEO them.

Basically, you're saying you don't want to make a case on them yet, and that you want them to act more scummy for you, correct?
(crazy speculation: This could also be a buss put into plan the night before involving them saying something scummy, or maybe even today, if we have daytalking scum. Not unheard of--lynch all lurkers, Tajo planned to buss Zwet, for example.)

That doesn't sit well with me.

No, there are 3 players who have a username that start with a ''M''. Mufasa hasn''t posted yet.

Never would've guessed, by Mufasa's contribution to the game. :/

Also how do you link to a specific post? Or can you?

I thought a player as good as yourself would already know this. :/

Three things:

1: Then why not vote your top suspect?
2: Explain why you are bandwagonning on the reasoning of others ("not contributing much", "sarcastic posts", etc.),
3: Especially when I've proven these points wrong.

But he should be vig-killed and investigated. So when he is killed, hopefully cop can claim and we can figure out the sanity of the cop.

1: Cop investigating him is a waste, pretty much. We already know, for sure, that he'll show up as the same result mafia would to any given cop.
2: Such vig (AND cop) directing is scummy,
as it not only
A: Is directing power roles,
but
B: Subtly fishing to see if said roles exist.

(This will be a huge shock to most of you)

Yea...things can be rather surprising, can't they?

I just noticed that Mastin didn't post here when I was sleeping

I've had a busy few days. :/

1. I don't see the difference between the two.

A miller is a generic term--
Emerald Miller is a term meant specifically for this game.

It sounds to me like you claimed Miller,
Then later were forced to add onto the claim and say Emerald Miller when called out on it.

1. I dunno,

You seriously don't at all remember your own reasoning? I can understand it happening from time to time, but generally, you say that in a way similar to "I forgot what my reasoning way". Not "I dunno".

laziness?

Is somewhat of a scum tell.

I thought I was getting my point across with one example.

Nope. You failed to do that at all.

1. Yes.

*shrugs*. I'll do it when I'm in a better state of mind. (Recovering from V/LA makes me tired. :/)

3. In our last game you used Craplogic to try to push a case against me. It turned out to be legit because of the whole cop investigation thing, but am I now supposed to consider it a cop-tell whenever you use Craplogic to push a case against someone?

Okay, let's start out with

1: This has NOTHING to do with the original point that tells such as that don't apply to me. Because I do it in all my games, it's a null tell and can't be used as evidence.
OTHER people do NOT have that luxury. You bringing up this unrelated point doesn't help you, Khan.

2: My logic was fine. I believed what I said. I was pushing it WAAAY to hard, sure, (I admitted that the case on you was BS'd. The tells, I was being honest about. Them being successfully applied, not so much.) but I wasn't lying. And the logic there has helped me in other games as well.

3: Your rolefishing on investigative roles is noted.

4: Whenever I push a case, consider it me scum hunting, a null tell.

5: Considering my play as an XX-tell, again, does NOT relate to my original point.

4. Stuff like this sounds more and more scummy everytime I read it.

Well, it's true.

The pro-town response to my RVS posts is to ignore them, or at least, make nothing out of them.

The pro-scum (or scummy, or anti-town. Depends on who does it, but it's never pro-town) response to my RVS posts is to attack me for it, call it distracting, find scum tells out of my joking comments, push a case against me for what I can defend with my meta, etc. It's alright to complain about them ("Mastin, your posts are too long", "Mastin, you post waaaay too much", etc.) once or twice, but other than that...

It's like you think Jedi Mind TricksTM are real.

*waves hand* You will be satisfied with my playstyle, unvote me, and vote for Johnny Rotten in your next post. (This is a joke, by the way. Sorry, couldn't resist.)

5. *facepalm*

1: THE ABSOLUTE MINIMUM LIST OF SCUMTELLS THAT DO NOT APPLY TO MASTIN:

-Any Metagame argument used in offense,
-Lurking,
-Any MIT scumtell.

2: It's true.
Look, face it, by MANY players' admitions, I'm not normal.
It stands to reason that scum tells don't apply to me in a normal way, as well.

(Double-facepalm if you actually expect me to buy that.)

Believe me when I'm telling the truth?
Yea, I expect that.
You're doubting one of my beliefs.
A belief.
Something which can be backed up by evidence, and which it is clear that person thinks.

Yet you doubt it.

I have noticed that there had been some discussion on who killed the mafia doctor.

Then how'd you miss the part where we said that discussing who killed what is scummy?

Also, what is a policy lynch?

Lynching any player whose name starts with "Mas" and ends with "tin".
More seriously,
A lynch on a player based off of their meta of being poor players, instead of by scum hunting. Commonly suggested Policy Lynches include Empking, Zwetschenwasser (Zwet when he first signed up was even mistakenly believed to be an Empking alt. ), Millar13, and more recently, Me, amongst others.

I sometimes find that piggy-backing is a good thing.

If I believe a person isn't using their own logic, it's a scum tell to me.

Also, why are people always posting during 1-4 a.m.

1: Timezones. I live in the Pacific Time Zone, for example.
2: I'm up late, okay? Goes with having lots of free time.

---

On second thought, I'm dead tired. Be back tomorrow, then.

[Mastin]

The mod knows why I've been busy.

[Mastin]

Anyway, I'll be dealing with this game shortly. Got to eat (Note: I take a long time eating. Ask...hmm...what game was that in? I think Alduskkel could confirm. ), and then after a brief (HOPEFULLY, anyway. :/) diversion to do real-life stuff, serious reading shall be done.

[Mastin]

Lorithia curse distractions to Darkovia!
Well, at least one of my games where I was focusing my attention is over.
And I've got most of today to work on a post. (Will take a while.)
Once I
-Finish a task in RL,
I have until I
-Go to a Square Dance
to write a post, and after
-Watching the recording of Mythbusters,
I will have all night to work on a post.

[Mastin]

I left off at page 15.

Alright srry for the absense men I will get a good look at this game in the next day

Men?
We're not all the same gender, here. <_<

(Possible scumslip, though. The classic way for the leader of a group to address their group is to call them "men". Like, say, "the men I command are loyal to me". This would fit with a Mafia Godfather-type role.
It's a stretch, though. :/)

My opinion of Mastin seems to fluctuate every page or so.

Aka, "fence sitting".

He's doing a great job scum hunting,

While that's a matter of opinion, in my eyes,
Darn right I am.

yet his comments refering to his own meta and why he should be considered town, bother me.

My memory tells me that I've been saying my actions are null tells, not town tells, from my meta.
Mind pointing out where I said I should be considered town due to meta?

I can fully understand bringing information like that every now and then, but he seems to do it 2/3 posts.

It's brought up often.

Now considering that there is a high possibility(possibility, not fact) that there is a second mafia would make scumhunting as mafia a very good idea.(As opposed to fake scumhunting that normaly happens by mafia)

The flip of a specific type of mafia confirms almost 100% (like, 99%. The other 1% is the very rare specific type of mafia in a game, for whatever, but no other mafia) that there are two mafia factions.

And scum hunting as scum is ALWAYS a good idea, regardless of one or two or ten (It'd be hilarious to see ten in a single game. ) mafia groups.

Also Mastin, you were bugging kublai about the flavour text in his role pm. The amount of possible information makes me curious, did you get a bunch of flavour information?

Rolefishing. I will not answer this question.

I should also bring up my original suspect, rofl. I still find his very instant, and non-changing suspiscion of mastin oddly suspiscious. I've never seen someone so sure so soon, when it is based off of total nonsense.

Eh, you'd be surprised at how some players can get on track so quickly. It's not a scum tell, but when they target on a pro-town player (like me), it's incredibly anti-town. (Anti-town != scum, people.)

His reasons are bad, his posts are sub-par. There is nothing I can bring up that wouldn't be repeating information. So with that in mind, I cast my first vote of the game(which means I'm very certain of something)

vote:Johnny Rotten

Humor me:
State your reasonings.
I know, even if it's all been said before.
State your case against Johnny.

There are many problems with this post...

1: First of all, being arrogant, ignorant, and tired in the morning isn't a scum tell. It's a tired-player-needs-to-rest-tell. (In other words, I buy the explanation.)

2: I am not seeing the supposed lie.

3: You're voting for someone you don't want lynched. THAT is a scum tell. You vote who you think is scum.
Not vote based off of Lynch-All-Liars.

---

Oh, wow, that long after only a page? Better post this to avoid a true Mastin-sized post. (Read: thirty pages in Microsoft Word. )

[Mastin]

2. Because, it just pychologically does so. Don't ask me how.

Bad reasoning, but call me a sucker:
Due to my own psychological beliefs (that any truly pro-town player won't have a sudden turnaround on opinions on any person, without the influence of power roles), I buy the explanation.

---
The whole ckool-Hayker-FA-etc. interaction is worthy of looking at. I believe ckool is town (ckool comes off of the exchange looking like newbtown, but not scum), though. Hayker, not so positive on (Hayker is a large suspect of mine, in fact). Fallen Angel neither looks like town nor scum in that exchange, and Mafia comes out of it feeling just...wrong. (Call it gut if you will. It's grown on me. )

I know a good eye doctor. They have miracle cures for bleeding eyes.

right off the fucking bat, Mastin's spam is hard to read...too much....have a feeling that this is going to be a long read.

General warning to MS.net people who want to replace in:
Ask the mod for a link to the game, or track it down yourself. If you see the name "Mastin", either dead or alive, amongst the players, either expect a long read, or decline to replace back in.

Don't worry, Mastin lets up a bit later.

Yea. Been busy. A game of mine just ended, though, and I should have that much extra free time.

Speaking of which, where is Mastin?

...I'm beginning to get uneased at FA's buddying to me.
Lots of players haven't posted at this point--
Why single me out?

After a while, he himself begins to get caught up in quite a tangled web, where he's not sure if he's a death miller or an [emerald] miller. Add to that the uncertainty he has when answering Mastin's questions, and he gives off a huge scummy aura to me.

Hmm...
*checks last vote count*

If he's so scummy because of it, why are you voting Johnny at this point, Kise?

HoS: ckool (it's evident why)

1: Humor me. Clarify, just to make sure.

2: Am I correct in assuming that your suspicions on this page, seventeen, are Johnny (your vote), Khan, and ckool?
If not, why the vote/statement of Khan's scumminess/Hos?
And if so, then why'd Johnny earn the vote above the other two?

Wow, if I had known sooner what you meant with ''selective revisionism'', we could have had more votes on you already...
IRC roles don''t include flavour. Based upon the flavour you''ve claimed to have received, you should have known that you were a miller, instead of a death miller. So the ''parony'' you''ve claimed to have received from IRC is invalid.
Not only that, when you apparently didn''t know if you were a miller or a death miller, you didn''t ask the mod to make sure. Only after this was pointed out, you decided to ask.
Also, what did the mod say about your question you said you''d ask him?

...
<--Not an IRC guy.
Who here can confirm this?

If so, it is a good point.

I asked who you thought killed Konowa. You said that you think that the Cerulean mafia didn''t kill him. But for other killing roles, you didn''t know.
Yet, in the quote of which I accuse you slip, you''re stating that a vig did it without adding a word that can show a sign of possibility, aka ''can'', ''possibly'', etc.
Yet, you even considered that the third kill could have been from a third scum team. So for somebody who states that he doesn''t know, you''re very certain that a vig did it. And that''s only possible in one way as I''ve already said.

Yea...like I said, I'm not buying the explanation, either.

Mastin, how many times have you been policy lynched

Never. However, this has to be at least the fifth or so game where it has been suggested. One of the five, I was later lynched, but it was due to a, umm, different kind of policy lynch. (Role, not player)

or been in favor of a policy lynch

Favored a policy lynch?
Never. It is perhaps the most stupid thing in the world to do, policy lynching.

and in total how many players were involved?

Anywhere from as few as six to as many as fourteen, off of memory.

So why no vote?

Stop beating me to my points, Zaz!

Even if this is so, an elaboration would be appreciated.

...In the same post, even!

---

Posting for length. That's through 17. (...But I have up to 27?!? Oh, boy. I'm going to have some fun. )

[Mastin]

Then next time you should announce that you''ll be V/LA in all your games

Considering how many I'm dead in, much easier to just declare it in all of the threads.

Do we have a mind meld going on or something? <_<

Hey, I've learned to hold back!
...I just choose not to most of the time.

whoa...note to self, reread post 219 after reading the whole game.

*checks*

Oh, right, Johnny's super-scummy post.

What makes that post, and that post alone, worthy of looking at after catching up?
Elaborate, please.

also (sorry if this is a repeat question)

No problem. My posts are seen as repetitive.

has it been meta-ed (confirmed?) that Mastin does this every game he is in?

Not every.
Only games where I start playing from the beginning.

But, yea, for the most part, I do this in every game. Works well, doesn't it? (I've stated the reasons why my attitude I view as something that only helps the rest of the town. Gets discussion going, gets us out of the RVS, etc. There are other ways to do that, sure, but none of them are as much fun. )

so far you post style is fine...

I've always liked Zaz's post style.

at least you break up the points

Hey! I break up the points as well! In fact, I break them up more than Zaz does!

and i can take it in parts...

Don't see why you can't already do this. My posts aren't that hard to read. They're just long and take a lot of time to read.

.if I want to break up something M says (for quotes)..I am going to have to reread through the bullshit to refind what I want..

This is true of any player who contributes walls (or lots of shorter posts) if you do it in Isolation. Page-searching does it better.

Yeah. I''ve seen it happen twice now.

Only twice? I could've sworn it was more than that. :/

And I think he did it in another ongoing game as well.

Have as much fun in the RVS as I did?
Hmm...
I think it's only three games, including this one.

(Regarding claiming scum)

Oh, that I've done far more often. It dates back to...hmm...

-Polygamist,
-Maybe 141, don't remember,
-At least four ongoing games.

Off the top of my head.

Post-style is always the same.

Nah, not always. Most of the time, yea, but not always.

I've only played 2 games on this site

Wow. Never would've guessed that few.

Mod: It is with great regret that I request to have a replacement chosen for me in this game. Unforseen real life circumstances preclude me from continuing.

Unforseen my @*censored* (Johnny might have true real-life difficulties [not any sort of a tell; we all have issues]; I'm commenting on the actual wording). Every time I've seen a player word their replacement request in this way, they've been scum. <_<

(Want examples?)

---

That's eighteen.

[Mastin]

Not Voting (7) - Achilles, Lowell, curiouskarmadog, dvdkid13, Mastin, Mufasa, Redith

...Didn't I vote for Johnny, way back when? :/

-=Seeking a replacement for Johnny Rotten=-

And with that, we lose any hope of Johnny answering our concerns. :/

Don't forget.
I have a memory of seeing you in at least two games and getting replaced in both. <_<

(Kise, mention it, and I''ll put up an image for you *glare*)

8- mastin selfvotes [-, grandstanding]

Obviously, you have not been paying attention to the fact that this has been confirmed as a complete null tell from me. I've self-voted ever since 763/762, my third/fourth/(and/or)fifth games. (I joined 762, 763, and 760 at all basically the same times. I forget the exact order, but they were four five and six.)

The proof is in my record. (Posting all of my games as of my last update, along with brief summaries of my view on them.)

* Lynch All Lurkers.

Again, I hate it when I'm scum (in an all-goon mafia team, no less, nearly mountainous minus the masons) and I go inactive. I had THOUGHT I was staying within the posting limit. Yea, I was wrong. I got lynched for it. I had considered claiming that doctors receive an extra bonus for lurking, like maybe my protection only has a 75% chance of going through, but lurking makes it 100, but decided against it. I messed up as mafia. Again. (I do that a lot, don't I? Now people think I have a lurk-as-scum meta. Sometimes, I'll lurk as town JUST to prove them wrong.)

Link: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... c&&start=0

Scum Quick Topic: http://www.quicktopic.com/43/H/NQPvq7JWX4fi


* Open 145--Polygamist Mafia.

Uhg. I hate it when I'm scum (basically, I was a four-man-all-mafia lover-mafia group) and I go inactive. I had done fine until I fell behind...and kept falling behind...and fell behind even more...it ended up eventually being too late. I had to recover from being AFK, but couldn't. Worse, MS.net broke for me around that time. It really, really sucked. I failed ekiM, AceMarksman, and ZazieR, players who I respect and who I know are good, and my overconfidence in my abilities and my activity level lead to my downfall. And by extent, our whole group.

Link: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11397

Scum Quick Topic: http://www.quicktopic.com/43/H/mLyexE2Ew8y?m1=-1&mN=-1


* Open 141.

My low point in scum hunting. I was busy, did not have a lot of time on my hand, and ended up tunneling on the cop. It shows why falling behind is not a scum tell for me, and shows how I am not always in my game. THIS game managed to deflate my ego.

Link: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11336


* Newbie 762.

I was the doctor. I replaced in the pre-game. This game was significant in many ways. First of all, along with 763, it was the first game where I demonstrated my self-voting technique. Second of all, it also is the first game which I lost. Along with 763, this game was also the first game where I got night-killed n1. It also again showed how pro-town I was; I was considered fairly pro-town and I also had managed to peg the mafia by the end of the game.

Link: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10973


* Mini 760--Bleach Mafia.

I was a townie. (I replaced in around page fourteen) Well, mostly. Latent powers are awesome. Due to not knowing Albert's full playstyle, I thought he was scummy, and I am thinking this is what stopped me from early-on nailing all of the scum. But, hey, even though I thought he was scum at the time, and I was swayed into thinking GLaDOS was scum due to Gorrad's flip, I DID have two of the three scum down in what I consider my first true post of content.

Link: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10857


* Newbie 763.

A townie. In this game, I thought I had nailed the scum on page one. Well, I was half-right, half-wrong. Both increasing and smashing my confidence. I got night-killed n1, something which is becoming rather my legacy (I suppose it was a blessing in disguise--I would've fallen behind again, likely, considering how I had fallen six pages behind once, it was a real risk). I'm disappointed that nothing deflated my ego significantly from that game--I have rather the large one. Albert helped lessen my ego somewhat, but it's still there, due to me having been half-right.

Link: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10972


* Newbie 742.

The cop. This game felt like it was Deja vu of Newbie 735. I replaced in day one for a player who I don't remember the name of as the--as mentioned--cop (again), obviously with no results. This was a faster, more bloody game than 735 was, and while it mirrored many aspects of 735, I actually ended up completing my part in 742 before I did in 735. (Was shot) Town won, and the result made me wish I had stuck with my original thoughts, which nailed both scum day one.

Link: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10609


* Newbie 735.

The cop. Now, in this game, I replaced in for deadline (ah, I wish deadline would've stayed--I mean, that name is just so hilarious it's a shame to have it wasted), day two--as mentioned--as the cop, finding that I had no results to give. It was a close game at first (the lack of result irked me), and only later ended up the way it did because of my play style and--ironically--lack of result. Town won when the scum were dealt the fatal blow in their coffin via my claim, which shocked them. I consider this my first true game.

Link: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10445

That should help ya get a far better understanding of my playstyle.

11- kublai votes mastin, claims MILLER [+, approve of this tactic]

I agree--if he is the miller, the claim was made at the correct time.

18- mastin claims jester

In the rvs.

22- rofl votes mastin [+, needed]

Tunneling.

Also--
You say the vote was "needed"--
Does that mean you think I am scum,
Or are you saying you support a policy lynch of me?

166- zazie points out KK's vig-slip [-, mediocre]

You forget--
I did that as well.
SEVERAL players did, actually.
Because, perhaps, you didn't consider the fact that we all saw the same thing? Not only a slip, but perhaps even an inconsistency/hypocrite?

219- johnny votes mastin, calls him a detriment to the town [+]

You give Johnny pro-town points...for that post about POLICY LYNCHING a player?!?

(If you couldn't tell, I am disliking Lowell's opinions already.)

292- rofl wants to lynch mastin, fallen, hayker, maifamann [++, me too!]

Buddying...

336- emp votes KK [-]

I see severe buddying to Kublai Khan from Lowell thusfar.
Anyone else?

rofl- he's right in post 52, 59, and I especially approve of his list in 292. He gets points for being willing to say mastin's play is scummy as hell.

Gets points for pointing out a null tell, which has been CONFIRMED as such by other players? :/

mastin and friends- here's what bothers me about mastin's playstyle.

Yea, yea, you're bothered by my playstyle.
That's the news of the century. [/sarcasm]
Really, it works well for catching scum--why'd I ever need to change it?

Every two posts someone is there to quell any suspicion by saying "oh, he ALWAYS does that."

Which is proof of why it is a NULL TELL, and nothing to be suspicious of. Failure to realize this is scummy.

Well, if he always does that,

I do what I chose to do because it works wonders.

and he's not helping town (he really isn't),

1: Explain to me how scum hunting isn't helping the rest of the town...

2: You referred to the town in the third person. Scumslip?

I don't know what I'm supposed to think other than scum.

Null tells are null tells. You either live with my style and get over it, or you ask to be replaced. My posts are long, but they get the job done; I scum hunt.

I have a nagging feeling that this is part of his plan,

You are saying, essentially, that you're worried my null tell is "some sort of plan"-->"Mastin's scum with a tactic".

As it is a null tell, this is not the case.

and I don't like that he seemed to enter with a lot of allies willing to get his back.

The fact that I have a lot of allies means that they can't all be scum.
Meaning that at least SOME pro-town players support me.
Meaning, that at least SOME of them legitimately believe what they say when they support me.

Meaning, that what they say is true, that this is a null tell, and that you're putting too much weight onto it.

I didn't record all the specific instances where everyone said stuff like "oh, well, that's mastin for ya' *eyeroll*" but the fact that they're there at all worries me.

The fact that so many players say it is proof that it's true. There's no way to paint them all as scum, now, is there?

As a policy I haven't read (nor will I) any of mastin's inane long posts.

Ignoring posts-->HUGE scum tell.
Not only that,
But if you haven't read my posts,
HOW WOULD YOU KNOW IF I HAVE BEEN HELPING THE TOWN OR NOT?

If anything of import happens in them, I'll rely on others to convey it.

Are you orangepenguin's alt, or something? <_<

Seriously, this is super-scummy. Don't rely on others to do your work.

Would lynching somebody for not playing the way they play when they are town fall into the category of a policy lynch?

No.

That's a Meta-lynch. (They're good, but far from effective. I'm a living example of this in some games, and I've mislynched someone who I thought I had a meta on, but really didn't. :/)

s iamausername the kind of mod that would include strange roles?

Eh, wouldn't know. I've seen him mod semi-open setups, but nothing more.

Is he the kind of mod that would try to screw with our minds?

That would be B-modding. Generally, mods are kind enough to mark their games as such. So I don't think so.

---

And so ends, Page Nineteen.

[Mastin]

Splitting hairs.

I fail to comprehend this...

It sounds like you're choosing to have a narrow view on the situation.

I'm calling it as I see it--you claimed Miller, and then changed it to Emerald Miller.
Can you see the point?

Your accusation doesn't even make sense as a scum-tell

Yes it does.
Inconsistency is a scum tell.
You claimed miller. No specifics. Just Miller.
Then you claimed Emerald Miller, after you were called out for it.

There's an inconsistency, there.
Can you see it?
I sure can.

Are you being dense on purpose?

Never.

Do you honestly think I'll ignore scummy activity from you just because you say it's doesn't apply?

When given evidence to support that it doesn't apply, sure, I believe you should ignore "scummy activity" from me, because it's not scummy activity, but rather, just my natural play.

Do you not even realize how incredibly super-scummy it is to even ask me to do that?

There's nothing scummy in asking you to ignore supposedly scummy elements in my natural play.

You're so scum in this game, Mastin.

This is not a rejection of what I said.
I said, it has been made clear that I am not a normal player, and it stands to reason that scum tells don't apply to me in the normal way.

Your response?
The above, when the quote wasn't evidence of any kind, when you posted no kind of evidence, when you just throw out this accusation again with no further proof to back it up.

He re-sent my role PM.

I find that somewhat hard to believe...

If I was a non-vig killing role, then how would I know it was the vig and not the other killer?

Simple.
The Cerulean night-kill.
If you were a member of an anti-town killing force, you'd know your faction's kill.
Meaning that another killing faction would be responsible for another death,
And the Ceruleans were the third.
You were saying that it was a vig who killed the Cer--which makes sense if you made one of the other two night-kills, leaving the Ceruleans as having made the third.

And if I were the vig, then why would I claim miller?

You wouldn't. Hence, the logical conclusion is that if the slip holds water (meaning it was a slip), and you're not the vig, you're an anti-town role.

@curiouskarmadog (441): I can meta-confirm that Mastin makes huge walls-o-text in general.

Who can't?

@Lowell (472): Hey! Welcome to the game. Good to play with you again. Why isn't Empking's Alt on your list of scummy players?

Ooh, ooh! Let me, let me!
He's probably too busy
defending his scumbuddy!
(That's you, Khan, from the vibe I was getting in that post. Serious defense of you, buddying up to many others...)

ckool is the scummiest to me atm.

Then, correct me if I am wrong, but...why no vote at this point in time on ckool, if ckool is the scummiest?

Also, Mastin when you're on, in case you missed my question. Did you get a bunch of flavour information in your role?

Rolefishing is not tolerated well.

Also what do you people think of Johnny's sudden leaving at pressure on him?

It's scummy, to say the least, and scum do do it often. However, it's not a scum tell, because pro-town players do it just as often. :/

(This is an example of scummy != scum-tell.)

---

And so ends...Page twenty...

[Mastin]

Dang, Zaz, this is creeping me out.



Someone needs to pay more attention. (It's hilarious, but I think it's worthy of attention--why'd you forget the FoS/HoS, Kise?)

<_<

Eh, the mod knows why I've been busy. As him if you really want to know.

on page 11, had to stop at post 255..eyes are bleeding.

Oh, come on. Your title is Rant-related; surely, you'd know that most rants are walls of text on their own. I mean, when I ramble, it is LONG. So why the eye bleeding?

this has to be the most fustrating game to read (replace in) I have ever been in.

TRUST me:
There ARE worse.

(...All of which, I'm in, of course. )

also note to self: need to check again, who first brought up the suggestion of Death Miller.

I was amongst the first. All millers on EM are lynch-death-millers, yet show up as millers when night-killed.

The Anime that you manage to get your hands on, Zaz, seems simply stunning to me.

Tell the truth. You're watching digimon.

<_< (Side-note: I did used to, years ago, watch the first, second, and third versions of the series. The first had a decent plot, which continued in the second. Making an unrelated third was a letdown for me, and while I somehow managed to stick through the increasingly lame plots, it lost my interest. :/)

Well, the rain only stopped you from posting for one day

It's Washington. It always rains.

I know that you play more with Kevin than with me

I play not with this "Kevin" figure you speak about so much.

So you asked the mod what kind of miller you are, and the mod sends you the same role PM, according to you? Makes a lot of sense

Dang it, Zaz, that's getting a bit annoying...

(Saying what I want to say before I actually say it.)

ZazieR has been posting a majority of the posts on the last few pages, and she hasn't gotten a single fos or anything...

Because she's likely pro-town.

This was not what ckool was saying. Stop putting words in another's mouth.

---

End page 23. Catching up, yay!
(...And then, Zaz comes online. And I get ten pages behind again... )

[Mastin]

The kublai thing is a sideshow.

This thing REEKS of scum, saying to divert their attention elsewhere.
"Hey, town! Kublai isn't that scummy; leave him alone! Let's go scum hunt elsewhere for a mislynch!"

Zazie has not convinced me why I should care what kind of miller KK might be.

This makes a HUGE difference.

Hey guys i've been rereading the game, and I have agreed to jump on the Johnny Rotten wagon. vote Johnny Rotten

Also V/LA Wednesday till Friday

...
That's a fair bandwagon (as in, Johnny has been scummy), but no reasoning at all, and admitting to bandwagonning-->HUGE scum tells. :/

This is a blessing and a curse.

Have you SEEN VP play? I've seen him scum twice (...and thought he was town both times. :/), and he was nominated for best performance as scum.
He's difficult to metagame and pro-town regardless of alignment.

Meaning, good player, good insight,
But a player extremely hard to metagame.
(VP, do you have any TOWN games to link me to for contrast? :/)

I see I'm the leading wagon at the moment...

My, my, you seem to be paying attention well--

Why check the last page?

Kise can you just give me a bulletpoint list of suspicions against M. Rotten?

His name was Johnny Rotten. Not M. Rotten.
Possible scumslip? (M.-->Common abbreviation for Mafia.)

---
Rofl's drop in activity is concerning...
---

Mastin, if you spent less time in your posts jerking off to how great you think you are (cause that is what you are doing 70% of the time) perhaps you would be effective at scumhunting.

I am effective at scum hunting. I just do it differently than most.

As it is, you're just spamming the thread with a lot of useless crap,

Explain how scum hunting is "useless junk". I'm scum hunting. Pointing out things I find suspicious, possible scumslips, etc.

I just do it in longer posts.

and what is useful scumhunting is buried somewhere in there.

A little bit of fluff never hurt anyone...

I think out of the twelve pages I read, there was at most 5 pages of actual game being played and the rest was Mastin saying, "If the best of every player on the site was put together, that would be me!"

Blatant twist of my words:

What I said, essentially, ONCE:

"Wow, with all these people in this game showing traits that I have, if you combined them all, you might get me!"
As a joke, MARKED BY THE RAZZ SMILEY.

Not something I've said for the last twelve pages, VP.

Seriously, get over yourself and actually learn how to play the game.

Personal attack has been noted...

rofl's gut read minimalism is 10 times more effective than your spamming.

Buddying...

I don't believe you are even keeping what you're saying straight,

Accusation of inconsistency/hypocrisy with no evidence to back it up...

If this is your normal playstyle, then you need to change it because it's really annoying and not as pro-town as you seem to have led yourself to believe.

Let's see. I

-have fun.
-Get us out of the RVS.
-Scum hunt.
-Get discussion going.
-Get suspects such as you from reactions.
-And so on.

No, not changing it any time soon.

Sorry if the noobs who think it's cool get offended, but it's true.

MORE personal attacks...

Please begin dismantling your shrines post haste. [/venting over so much useless information]

Venting on me, when Zaz has posted fluff as well, just in a different way than I do.
What makes you ignore Zaz's fluff, and focus on mine, And result to personal attacks against me?

Mastin sure takes a long time eating,

Yea. At least eight hours per meal.

Yeah, "active" is the under-statement of the century. Out of the 615 posts in this game so far, you've made 175. That's ~28% of the game. Keep in mind that you are only ~5% of the active game population. If that doesn't seriously suggest that you're trying to railroad the town's opinion against me (despite the fact that nobody really buying into your crap), then I don't know what does.

Fos: ZazieR

What I find interesting:
The fact that you've been in this fight with Zaz for pages...and only NOW FoS Zaz...for, of all things, being ACTIVE.

Here now.

Mastin is tied up in my basement

Small basement. Need redecorating.

---

End page 25.

[Mastin]

Though it doesn''t explain that Mastin is still posting in other games >.<

I'm here now, though.
Does anything else really matter?

Zazier, you're going way overboard to try and make him look scummy when he really hasn't done anything scummy. Miller vs. Death Miller is a stupid argument and he never really "lied" about anything. Time to get over it and move on.

Right. So I'm thinking VP, Khan, and Lowell are all scum together.

Mastin has been quite annoying most of the game and spamming the thread is a good technique as scum to make you unreadable.

1: Explain how scum hunting is "spamming the thread", and

2: For someone who claims to have read the whole thread, you sure do make a good habit of missing the fact that this has been confirmed as a NULL TELL.

Putting so much useless information in your posts and parsing every clause of a sentence makes it so no one can go back and look for your stances on players.

Only if they're lazy.
If people refuse to read my posts, not my problem.
It's theirs. They'll look scummy for it later on.

Why do you think this is helpful to the town?

Let's see...

-It's thorough. I let nothing slide.
-If I were mafia, my longer posts would mean potentially more slips.
-It allows me to be detailed in my suspicions,
-It allows me to outline suspicions over multiple players in the same post as an easy reference...
-It allows for a far greater level of freedom...

And I like doing it, anyway.

Why do you repeatedly bring up how pro-town you are?

I do nothing of the sort--
I say my actions are a null tell.

Read:
N-U-L-L.
Not
T-O-W-N.

I am pro-town, sure, but there's no point in me bringing it up needlessly. You're stretching.

Why do you say you try to get into trouble so the town questions you?

1: It's fun. REALLY fun.
2: It catches scum. Explaining why nullifies the point of it, though.
(Oh, and your reaction, not the pro-town one. It's the scum one.)

This is a load of crap and trying to lynch someone on a technicality. KK gave his role not his flavor.

Emerald is PART of the role.

NOT flavor.

Fishing for flavor.

Testing a claimed miller to see if he slipped.
I refuse to say (hopefully I didn't already) whether he passed or failed on that flavor matter.

My role PM doesn't include any of this. I'm willing to lynch you over this alone really.

Note to self: Keep in mind posts like this.

It supports a theory of mine, which would be anti-town to state out loud.

Like I said before, if you're town it's time to knock it off. If you don't, then please die. I'm asking nicely here.

No, you are not. You
-Resulted to personal attacks,
-Ignored some similar play from Zaz,
-And are basically trying to blackmail me.

Also, if you're so willing to vote for me...why the vote for Mafia? (I agree, Mafia does look suspicious--not as suspicious as you, though.)

I would nominate the title of Masin as 'zebra crossing' - the length doesn't bother me, but the insistence of quoting a line answering a line, quoting a line etc etc is giving me a contrast headache

Unabridged is better.

Now, Zaz. Wrapping up 27, with the first post of 28!

This IS my "holding back", SC! <_<
Really, you don't want to see me at full force.

---

End page 27. Literally.

[Mastin]

A-ha!
Found it!
I *knew* I would never go this long unvoted!

Johnny with this post single-handedly steals away my vote for such a scummy post.

Mastin Votes: Johnny.

Mod: Every vote count after This post which has me listed as unvoted is incorrect; I have been voting for Johnny this whole time

.

[Mastin]

For the mod's convenience, this is the first vote count since I voted Johnny.

[Mastin]

Anyway, going to bed, now. I read over ten pages and got caught up; happy?

[Mastin]

LONG PAGE!

This'll be FUN!

Corrected Mastin's vote in vote counts 3 through 14. This is why you shouldn't put a vote in the middle of a gigantic wall of text.

Sorry, sorry, sorry. I didn't know that post was so long when I wrote it; I thought the vote would be near the end of the post. Silly Mastin.

Page 22 and heading for the summit. No oxygen, no supplies, eyes fighting against me, brain shutting down, time running out, but dammit I will watch the sunrise from the top of page 28...

(bottom would be more accurate literally but it doesn't go with the mountain climbing metaphor. Poetic licence and all)

Lol. You really

are

bored, aren't you?

It is indeed a ridiculous stretch.

I point out the possibility. I admit that it's doubtful, but would you rather have me ignore a potential scumslip?
You're complaining about me not doing enough scum hunting; comments such as that one are how I do mine.

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about in your posts.

No, it's not--you're talking about fluff.
This wasn't fluff.

Why even mention it when you should well know that it means nothing?

I mentioned it because it was a possible scumslip.
What more do I need?

Why not attack him over having like two posts all game and saying absolutely nothing, that makes much more sense.

Because, in a game of this size and with as active posters as we have here, that level of activity is nothing to be suspicious of.

Also, do you really consider things like this scumhunting?

How is pointing out a possible scumslip NOT scum hunting?

You were the one rolefishing in the first place.

I was trying to bait Kublai Khan, someone who had already claimed, into revealing something which would make his claim obviously fake (too much flavor, too little, inconsistent flavor, etc). I have explained that I refuse to elaborate on if he got it correct, because it'd be anti-town to do so.

You asked why Kublai Khan did not include a bunch of flavor things in his miller claim. Did you not?

I was scum hunting, with a trap for possible scum.

I'm going to break down the jist of what happened with the miller claim since you guys seem to be losing focus because of it.

I have a strong distaste for summaries such as this:
They only convey part of the message.
They seem to cut out vital details and overlook key facts.

I much prefer elaborating, going over it all, and then giving a summary of the points later on as best as I can, but even then, it's clear that I don't get the entire message across in my summaries.
(On a side-note, it's a scum tell to quote the summaries I make and use the summary as the entire logic behind the statement/conclusion from it when the entire argument does it better than the summary, in my opinion.)

-You guys begin to press him about the miller claim for some reason and he says he's a "regular Emerald miller". So, he included his flavor along with his role this time.

Emerald isn't flavor--

If I see people fail to state they're an "Emerald *role*" when they claim, they're scum. Look at the bodies we have--

Emerald Townie.
Emerald Jailkeeper.
Cerulean Doctor.

See the difference?

Emerald reflects role.
If people fail to state they're an "Emerald *role*", then they're scum, who forgot this little detail.

Khan did.
And then, later--AFTER having been called out for it--includes the Emerald part.

People flip over this. Again, for what reason I don't know. He claimed the same exact thing, just with flavor this time.

It wasn't flavor.
It was a key detail of a supposed role PM.

Which he "left out".
More like didn't get.
(As in, he's Mafia, faking miller.)

Now people ask him what kind of a miller he is even though he already said he's a regular miller. He decides to PM the mod for clarification because of his IRC business and

apparently you guys have made him unsure.

One should NEVER be unsure of their role. If you have a question,
ASK DURING THE NIGHT.
We have all of Night Zero to clarify details like this.
If I were a miller, I'd definitely ask any question regarding the type of miller I am during the Night Zero chat.
It's the best time to do things.

He didn't. He got confused; he got called out for it.

You're defending/buddying up to Kublai Khan, and doing it a lot, VP.

The fact that Khan has only two active defenders (VP, Lowell. Rofl did so earlier, but hasn't truly defended Khan other than for the fact that he claimed at exactly the right time and gave reasoning why the claim doesn't work as scum) is more proof in my eyes that Khan's scum, and that his defenders are his scumbuddies.

-The mod PMs him his role right back. ie, it says regular miller so that is what you are.

This was NOT specified.

While I agree that he shouldn't have doubted his status as a regular miller because that is what his PM said,

If you agree with the scum tell,
Why aren't you voting for him, then?
(I'm voting for you because I think you're more likely to be scum than even Khan.)

you guys have to keep in mind that you were the ones badgering him about if he was a death miller or not.

Testing his claim.
He failed.
His grade was well below 50%, an F-.

Prior to that, I saw no suggestion from him that he could have been anything else than a regular miller.

Again, we tested him. He failed because of
-The fact that he said regular Miller, not Emerald Miller,
and
-The fact that he was confused about being a death/normal miller.

You're being revisionist and using confirmation bias Zazie.

Zaz does, admittedly, seem to be tunneling a bit. However, she is also raising excellent, well-founded, logical points which I agree with.
(You might Blame the fact that, while my posts are longer than hers, if it weren't for that fact, we'd have very, very similar posts.)

Your vote hasn't even moved the entire game has it?

So, what?
What's the problem with voting your top suspect?
Not moving a vote the entire game is NOT something to attack another for. It just shows that they haven't changed their suspects.
(Which, in my opinion, is a pro-town thing to do. I consider it a SERIOUS scum tell to overnight change opinions on a player without power role influence.)

I think you've had some good questions put to other players in this game, but you haven't really followed up on much because you're stuck on the miller thing.

She's not "stuck" on anything. She's pursuing someone who has made scumslips, and who has shown inconsistency in his claim.
That's scum hunting for you.

I don't personally feel

he's as

obv

scum

as you are making him out to be

See emphasis.
He says he doesn't think that Khan's Obv scum as Zaz says.

That doesn't mean he doesn't think Khan is scum. In fact, to me, it implies that he DOES think that Khan is scum, just not

obvious

scum--yet defends him, anyway.

Anyone else notice this?
I sure did.

and I would suggest you at least go through some of your exchanges and look at the perspective of KK being town and be a bit objective about it.

I have done so occasionally. No matter how I look at it, I can't see Khan as town. He keeps on coming off as scum. (Same with you, VP. I prefer to hold back on PBPA's at this point in time, and don't do summaries of suspicions without a PBPA most of the time, so if you want the accusations against you, it'll be a huge PBPA-style post. I think we can both agree that this would be, at this time, a waste of time and effort.)

If he still looks like scum to you, then by all means keep your vote.

Yea...you look like scum to me, VP, as does Khan, specifically, you look like buddies with Khan.

Also, do you really think a claimed miller in a large game is going to be able to ride that claim to victory?

Old news. Rofl said this already. I think it was a tactical error from Khan, who didn't think of the consequences a miller claim would have, and he's forced to defend himself now.

Even if he is scum, he put a big target on his back and would likely have multiple killing factions gunning for him tonight.

Exactly why it was a tactical error, one which Khan likely overlooked.

Say we didn't lynch him today, who would you like to see go to the gallows?

I want you dead before Khan. Your flip would prove my theory about the defenders of Khan being scum when you flip scum, and make it more likely that Khan's scum as well.

Mastin, why are you constantly trying to compare yourself to Zaz?

Because if I didn't insist on longer posts, we'd have nearly identical playstyles.

Zaz is a player who I hold VERY high respect for. (Did you read the link for Polygamist? All three of my scum partners there are players who I respect and admire.)

You really think this is a valid scumtell?

The way a replacement request is worded?
Heck f-ing yes.

What grounds do you have for doubting johnny had RL issues?

This is

NOT

what I was saying

--VP is conveniently leaving out a VERY important part of the quote!

Unforseen my @*censored* (

Johnny might have true real-life difficulties

[not any sort of a tell; we all have issues]

; I'm commenting on the actual wording).

Every time I've seen a player

word their replacement request in this way

, they've been scum. <_<

(Want examples?)

Note the emphasized parts. I was saying there's no reason to doubt Johnny had Real Life Issues--but it's the WAY the request was worded to be suspicious of.

Perhaps you can sum up the case.

Me?
Sum things up?

In theory, possible.
In reality, summaries only convey part of the message; I can't deliver it all without doing a PBPA.

I've asked people multiple times now and have seen nothing of substance beyond him wanting to policy lynch you.

They can, if they want to. I won't, because that'd be a full-blown PBPA on both you and Johnny.

I've yet to see that.

And this comment is why you are scum.
People who fail to see how I am scum hunting, and how I have caught scum before with this tactic, will be far more likely to be scum--especially when I am targeting THEM.

In fact, it seems more like you spraying buckshot and hoping something hits.

What's with people and their shotgun metaphors? :/
(You'd be surprised how many times this accusation has been made.)

I think if you were more focused you'd be more effective, but that's just my opinion.

Focusing:

Commenting on only my suspect's posts and taking the automatically most scummy interpretation in order to push for their lynch.
Current primary target: VPB.

Still want me to focus, VP? That's how I would.

What is the point of saying this?

A warning to the rest of the town that you're a darn-good scum player. (And a request for your town meta for comparison.)

It looks like you are trying to make the town afraid of me or something.

There's that referring to the town in third person thing, again, which is a scum tell.

What other scum game did you see me in?

I saw you in Inventor, and I thought you were town there. I saw you in an ongoing game, thought you were town. I have heard via your nomination for Best Newbie that in your first game, as scum, you played very well. And if I looked at your posts there, I'm sure I'd think you were town there as well.

Also, you can find links to my town games in my wiki.

I find it to be a slight town tell to post the links yourself, and a slight scum tell to not.

(You failed that test.)

Because that is where I first posted to say hi.

The logical thought process is to go to page one, post your hi message from there, and then go back to page one to start rereading. It's what I've always done. Because it makes sense to me.

I also wanted to see who was being voted and by who so I could compare it to the progression throughout the game.

Iso-mod does this better than anything else.

You're saying you would not do something like that upon replacing in?

I go to the first page and immediately start reading. When I reach the bottom of the first page, I type in the Quick Reply box my Hi, hello, etc. post and then get to page two.

It's how the french abbreviate monsseuir.

Anyone else speak French? Can they verify this?

Also, are you being serious?

If there's no smiley, then I'm serious. (If there is one, well, more likely than not, I'm not.)

Do you consider this scumhunting?

How is pointing out a potential scumslip NOT scum hunting, VP?

I'm pretty sure he said that he would be ceasing to post content because you guys were acting ridiculous.

I know, but it's concerning to me. I do not recall seeing this attitude from rofl in the past.

Also, you should appreciate his meta since that seems to be your excuse constantly.

The fact that it is concerning to me is proof that I do--I haven't heard of rofl doing this in the past, and do not recall having seen it, either.

I'll believe it when I see it.

You HAVE seen it--you just don't like what's there: I'm scum hunting YOU. I've got you pegged as scum, most likely have your buddies down as well.

I won't deny there are some good points in some of your posts,

Odd, that you say this, when most of my points are against you and Khan.
Scumslip?

but there is also a lot of unnecessary fluff that makes the good points seem few and far between.

I respond to fluff with fluff. Other than that, I might make a fluff response occasionally, but not often. Most of my posts are filled with scum hunting. You're just afraid to see it.

I don't want to read a post that takes me an hour.

It takes me less than ten minutes to read my longest posts in this game, VP. And I'm a slow reader, compared to most.

I have a life.

So do I. And yet, I still manage to type up these posts which take ten times longer to type than to read, and read others' long posts, and do this all in multiple games.

If you cut the fluff out and actually focused on a handful of suspects it would actually be considered scum hunting to me.

Alright, I'll cut the fluff out in my responses. I'll focus on you and Khan, a handful of suspects. I'll scum hunt against my primary suspects and make good, logical cases against them.

Really, VP--you're making it sound like you WANT for me to attack you harder.

Like I said before, you are just responding to every little detail

Leaving no slips not pointed out...

and a great deal

Actively contributing...

of it is unnecessary spam.

My posts are scum hunting. Not spam.

Having 40% of your post be composed of it is something else altogether.

My recent posts have almost no fluff in them. Not near this mythical 40%.

How am I buddying with rofl by stating an opinion that I think his playstyle is more effective than yours?

How is it not buddying to complement another person's playstyle, and essentially say they're correct in everything?

My point was saying that your posting style is not as pro-town as you think.

It is, too.

-Having fun has nothing to do with that.

You essentially asked why I insist on having long posts, wanting to know what's so pro-town about them. This being the weakest of my reasons for doing them, I listed it first.

-We would have got out of the RVS either way,

I got us out quickly. Like, seriously quickly, with this playstyle.
I got us playing the game.

The RVS would drag on for pages more if not for me.

and you are inflating your own self-importance on this matter.

Do you deny that it's good to get out of the RVS?

-What scum hunting is in there is indeed pro-town, I agree.

Again, almost all of my scum hunting has been on you and Khan.

If it's pro-town, then you're essentially admitting you're mafia.

-How are my reactions suspect?

Because your reactions are NOT the pro-town reactions to my post. I will NOT specify specifics, because it will allow you to adjust your playstyle to avoid it. I want you to continue digging your hole deeper with your reactions to me.

Your posting style is in fact ANNOYING.

I know. And pointing it out once is alright.

[follow-up statement self-edited out]

Explain to me how finding it annoying is scummy.

To do so would mean that you would no longer make this mistake, and you'd try to be more pro-town with it.

-And so on is not a point.

Most of the other points after that are too minor/repetitive for me to list.

Hence, "And so on".

As much as you would like to believe you two post the same, you do not.

Besides the fact that I have lots of long posts, and she has lots of short posts, what makes us that different, VP?

Her posts, while plentiful, are nicely broken up and are salient.

Her posts are small, and smaller posts are easier to organize.

Yours are a jumbled mess.

On the contrary, they are very organized. They are as organized as I can make a long post be.

When she does post fluff, it is in a separate post I can just skim over an ignore. Yours is all jumbled together and unfocused.

Helpful hint:

Whenever you see a smiley in my posts, it's a safe assumption that it's most likely fluff and can be skipped.
I never post fluff without a smiley.

You can skim over my fluff if you know what to look for.

Yours is all jumbled together and unfocused.

Not really. I put my points in a chronological order. The order that they were posted. How hard is it to follow along with that?

See the difference?

Not really. Nothing besides the long posts seems any different than it did before.

And again I ask you why you are constantly trying to link yourself to Zazier?

1: Ignore the 'R'. (Yes, I pay attention, Zaz. )

2: Because, like I said, I see extreme similarities in styles and opinions. The only thing I see different is that my posts are longer, and slightly less plentiful.

Because I think lynching a claimed miller over bad points on day one is a stupid play?

Because of
-The things I've pointed out in this post
-The extreme defending of Khan
-The slight case of a possible chainsaw defense (this is one of the reasons why I want you lynched. This tell only applies if one of the two flips scum, so if you flip scum, you were chainsaw defending Khan.)
-General scummy play, which would be best explained by a lengthy PBPA.

How much stock do you really put in this theory?

I'm over 90% sure that one of you three is scum. 75% sure that at least two are, and about 60% for all three.

A great deal.

you clearly have a loose definition of scum hunting.

You clearly have a loose definition of "spam".

If you say it enough it must be true!

The problem with this statement is,
It's not just me saying it.
SEVERAL people have said it, and confirmed it to be true.

At best it's anti-town.

Oh, I admit, I can see how it could be anti-town.

But I also see why it is pro-town.

Again, people have lives.

And, again, it takes less than ten minutes on average to read my posts. (This one, I can understand if it's longer. Half an hour, max.)

Most do not want to stare at the computer for an hour or more just to read your posts and then have to make a post themselves.

It takes half an hour, absolute max, for me to read my longest posts on this site.

You don't even include a tl;dr of your main points.

I do, most of the time. I haven't, because I--again--suck at summaries and when I do do the tl;dr version, I always feel as if part of the conclusion, the summary, is missing.

I don't blame anyone for skimming your posts.

Skimming's fine.

Ignoring's not.

-Some things aren't worth commenting on.

Yes, they are.

-Not if people have to fish through a 1500 word post for a slip.

People not reading my posts is their problem. If--as mafia--I made a slip, and people failed to notice it due to their own laziness, it's THEIR PROBLEM FOR BEING

LAZY

.

Also, this is entirely WIFOM

Obviously, you have not checked up on my meta. I've stated this to be the case since 742.

-Detailed without any kind of focus.

The only greater focus I can give would be to comment even heavier on my top suspects and come to the conclusion that is the scummiest. You don't want me to focus.

-Easy reference for who though?

I can easily hyperlink people to the posts with my summed up thoughts on multiple players. Zaz uses multiple hyperlinks for her multiple posts; I can use a single hyperlink for all of my points.

Say someone flips scum and I as a town person want to find your interactions with that person later.

Not hard to do. I provide my suspicions in almost all of my posts.

It becomes almost impossible because of the sheer disorganization of your posting style.

It becomes super-easy, because it becomes obvious who my suspects are in any given post. (You, Khan, and Lowell currently hold spots #1, 2, and 3, respectively.)

If you want my opinions on who is town, those are far and fewer, because I dislike stating this too often--gives scum targets and all that. I'll occasionally state someone who I think is solidly pro-town all the way through, but usually, it'll be in a matter of debate between that player and another, making it an indirect accusation against the other player being scum.

-Freedom to do what?

Freedom's freedom. I can do anything with freedom.

Generally, though, it gives me the freedom to scum hunt however I wish to.

Things you repeatedly bring up again and again to insinuate how pro-town you are:

Okay, let's shoot these all down, one by one.

most scumtells are null against such a "unique" individual like you,

This is me saying that they're NULL tells. Meaning NOT SCUM,

BUT ALSO

NOT

TOWN AS WELL

.

you claim sole responsibility for moving the game out of RVS,

So, what? It might be a pro-town action to do, but it's a null tell; I'd do it regardless of alignment.

you inflate your importance in moving the discussion along,

I got us discussing. That's, again, a pro-town action (why I listed it as pro-town to do),

But something that I'd do regardless of alignment. Making it a null tell.

you are scumhunting so very very much.

Explain to me how good scum hunting isn't pro-town.

No town player

No True Scotsman fallacy.

should have to be constantly referencing these things and their actions should speak for themselves.

The thing is, I'm not.
I insist that most of these things are null tells.
That means null--NOT SCUM, NOT TOWN.

Do you have worries that yours do not?

My actions are always pro-town in nature. They might be seen as anti-town to others, but they've also got the pro-town side of the coin as well. It's a null tell, though, my posting style.

Orly? Care to explain what 'Emerald' does to affect someone's role?

I WILL lynch anyone who fails to specify they're an Emerald *role*. Because if they fail to specify they're an Emerald, then they're forgetting a key detail in their PM. Meaning, they're scum, not an Emerald.

Khan failed to do it initially. Which is why I think he's scum, amongst other reasonings. (I think you're scum even more, though, VP.)

I call BS.

You call, testing a claim to see if he slips, to be BS?

Yea, right.
You're defending Khan heavily by attacking me.
And Zaz.
And everyone attacking Khan, for that matter.

You were rolefishing.

I NEVER rolefish. I was asking for details from SOMEONE WHO HAD ALREADY CLAIMED, as a trap.

And you tried to call Hayker a rolefisher for calling you on it.

Hayker asked me, someone who has NOT claimed, for what flavor I have.
THAT is rolefishing.
I asked someone who had claimed the details of their flavor, as a trap.
That is NOT rolefishing.

wtf? Explain this please.

This:

Like I said before, if you're town it's time to knock it off.

If you don't, then please

die

.

That's blackmailing.

Because clearly I think he is more suspicious.

Considering how much you're quoting me?
Not buying it.

Seems like OMGUS and weaksauce against my predecessor more than anything.

I made clear, logical arguments against Johnny. I just won't summarize them because a summary loses part of the message.

I apologize for the long post.

Not at all. I enjoyed it.

---

Ah, and all that from mostly only VP's post.

[Mastin]

I'm worse. I've held back. If you saw me at full strength...

(Read: If you see me posting a warning that a post is over thirty pages in Microsoft Word, RUN. For your life. )

Lowell buddies to VP.

Are you a Lyncher by any chance?

1: Rolefishing. (I don't care if it's an anti-town role; it's not a scum role, hence, not true scum hunting.)

2: This is a baseless accusation with no evidence to back it up.

ZazieR and Mastin jumped on and demanded more information than I had ("What kind of Miller?!").

This seems to contradict with what you said earlier--didn't you mention knowing what type of Miller you were?

Of course that hasn't stopped ZazieR and Mastin from screaming "scumslip!" loudly and often in some sort of bizarre belief that repitition creates truth. (Note: Politicians and Pundits do the same thing.) Trying to create an artificial reality is a scum-tell.

1: You're repeating yourself right now, and making that "artificial reality". Your own scum tell now applies to yourself. Hypocrisy.

2: You show far too many inconsistencies for me to believe your claim. You stance of certain things are scummy, and you've shown inconsistencies/hypocrisy/scum tells from things not even related to your miller claim.

Eh? Link?

Eh, probably referring to your play in 742. There was a noticeable difference in play between the pre-cop and post-cop claim, panicking under the realization that there was a guilty on you.

How is that a change?

Because, as shown, there is a clear difference between Emerald and not-Emerald.
Emerald *role*--town.
Not Emerald *role*--Cerulean or the other mafia faction.

Failure to even specify the Emerald part is a scum tell, because you're forgetting a VERY KEY DETAIL of your role PM.

Let me put it this way:
Compare these two claims:
"I'm a roleblocker. I blocked XX night zero, because he said he'd kill me if he got a killing role."
"I'm an Emerald Roleblocker. I blocked XX night zero, because he said he'd kill me if he got a killing role."

Which of those two looks more legit?

Definitely the latter, to me.

First, let's start with basic common sense.

The charge has been made. You failed to specify a detail of your supposed role PM, a VERY KEY FACT.

Failing to specify that you're an Emerald *role* means that either
-You're lying about your role, (This would be the case for you, Khan, as there's no way to be a Mafia Miller--that's a godfather.)
or
-You have said role, but forgot to specify Emerald in your claim.

Emerald is essential in your claim.
You failed to put it in there, and AFTER BEING CALLED OUT, you changed it to Emerald Miller.

There's no such thing as a SK-Miller because that would be retarded.

Eh, by default, I like to think of Serial Killers as showing up as innocent to cops. Blame EM.

So all that's left is townie (or Emerald) miller.

Look, there are multiple reasons scum could fail to specify Emerald.
Let's use that roleblocker example, again.
Let's also assume it's a Cerulean roleblocker.

Stating that he's a roleblocker isn't a lie--it's just forgetting that he's supposed to lie and say "Emerald Roleblocker".

But what if he were, say, a Cerulean goon?
If he wanted to claim miller, he'd claim miller. Not thinking about the Emerald phrase that a pro-town player's PM would have.

---
You see, there are multiple ways scum could forget to add the Emerald phrase. Simply put, it's very doubtfully going to be in their PM's; it's safe to assume that they'll have *Mafia faction's Name* *Role*, because that's what the mod is revealing roles as.
(See: Cerulean Doctor)

Unless Mastin is trying to claim that there are multiple townie factions or independent survivors in this game.

Not only is this 1: Baseless speculation,
but it's aslo
2: Rolefishing.

In which case his insistence that there is a difference between "miller" and "Emerald Miller" implies that he has a greater knowledge of the game setup than I do. As such, I believe it's a slip on Mastin's part. A scummy slip.

Again, this is completely baseless, obviously false speculation. I am making a point involving the slip on your part--failing to specify the Emerald.

Your role has nothing to do with it. It could be Roleblocker, Jailkeeper, or Vig for all I care.
Failing to specify the Emerald part is a HUGE scumslip.

It's not inconsistent unless you can prove that there is potential for "non-Emerald" Millers.

I don't have to.
If you're mafia, you wouldn't even THINK to add the Emerald phrase to WHATEVER you claim, be it Miller, Vig, your actual mafia role, etc.

Are you kidding me?

No.

Why the fuck aren't people voting for Mastin???

Because it isn't scummy.

If I give evidence to support that my supposed "scummy activity" is really just a null tell from me, then it's no longer a scum tell, and can be ignored, because it's my natural playstyle, a null tell, and not a scum tell.

This is true for ANY player.

For example, you could say that voting for a no-lynch at the beginning of a game is a HUGE scum tell. Yet if the person always does that at the beginning of their games, it's no longer a scum-tell; it's a null tell.

It's simple metagaming logic.

Got a problem with that?

Am I literally the only one that sees this as scummy?

Yes. You are; there's nothing to see in me stating a simple metagaming fact.

Zaz is good.

Moving on, it seems Vp Valtar is town,

Not to me. VP has topped my scumdar for his posts this game, and add to that, Johnny's play. (I'll work on that PBPA if you REALLY want to know the accusations against you THAT badly, VP.)

That's like the biggest stretch ever mastin.

But it is possible, nonetheless, Far.

Baltar looks obv town to me, and the Johnny Rotten wagon itself was weird.

Odd, to me, he looks obv scum, and the wagon was fueled by legitimate reasons, albeit mostly unexplained by the voters. ("All the reasons have already been said"<--Most common reason for bandwagonning Johnny.)

Lowell also looks quite good from memory.

Odd, Far, that you think two of my top three suspects look good...

I agree w/ the earlier rofl post about why miller claim won't let him live to endgame.

The question is:

Did KHAN, the person MAKING the claim, know about it before rofl said it?
If not, then he easily could've done it, thinking it was the correct move, but later realized too late that it was a tactical error.

While I disagree with many of the points in here, this post was incredibly pro-town.

Mastin, on the other hand, I'd say you have contradictions in your play, and I hate contradictions.

My play is consistent, if you know what you're looking for.

I think you selectively accuse other people of tunnelling while doing so yourself and giving others a free pass.

I have not tunneled. I have merely found three, very linked players who have had some extremely scummy comments.

I think saying certain scumtells don't apply to you because you're different is a poor argument (everyone is different - tells remain constant.)

But I'm even MORE different than an average player...

I think you accuse others of role of flavour fishing while doing so yourself under the guise of scumhunting.

It was a trap, on a player already claimed.
Those rolefishing me are asking for information from me, when I have not claimed.

Coaching. KK could well have known this is a poor argument likely to bring suspicion on JR and tried to get him to drop it like it's hot. Doesn't read as a legit answer to a question to me.

The fact that he was coaching Johnny, who was later replaced by VP, is further proof of why Kublai and Johnny are scum together.

I hate don't vote me or you'll pay threats. Scummy.

This was not the case. Me simply stating facts.
NOBODY has ever gotten away from an accusation on me without later regretting it.
-They'll face walls of text
-IF they get me lynched, they'll often be lynched the next day
-And other such various regrets.

You specifically fished for flavour first, and gave examples of flavour possibilities. When it didn't work and someone quesitons why you bring that up, you call them out as rolefishing. Scummy contradiction.

No. Augmentation.
I was laying a scum trap for flavor on someone ALREADY CLAIMED.
Hayker then rolefished me, trying to mimic my action.

Utter crap. You think that rofl was tunneling in the 22nd post of the game?

Of course he was. His meta supports him doing that.

Why wouldn't I be thinking rofl was tunneling with the attacks of that kind on me?

There was legitimate content around that was being debated and dismissing it as tunnelling is scummy

We were still in the RVS, SC.
Rofl was tunneling.

especially when you let Zaz off the hook for an epic tunnel that's lasted most of the game.

Zaz has made very good points against Khan, who has NOT responded well to them.
While it might be a bit of a case of confirmation bias, I think that Zaz has hit the mark against Khan.

It's OK because it's me. Beginning to be a familiar tune, Mastin.

So?
It's true; I can support it with meta.
What's the problem with that?

---

Caught up to my last post.

[Mastin]

Right, so my internet had failed on me Thursday, and it only just started working again. Got lots of catching up to do; I'm going to have lots of fun this game.

[Mastin]

MafiaMann
is having a birthday!
Mafia Scum

Happy B-day.

For some reason, I have my doubts.
Anyone else share that opinion?

Mastin, I'm not going to go tit for tat with you for the sanity of everyone in this game.

Then you will inevitably fail to truly counter me. Not responding to everything will leave you looking scummy, because you'll inevitably leave out key parts of my argument.

(Well, you would, except that half of the time, I'm too lazy to check back on my own posts and go by memory.)

So, I will sum it up for you: you're wrong.

1: And, I'll return the favor and sum it up for you:
I'm not wrong.

2: And even if I were, being wrong is not a scum tell.

A lot.

So, what?
Being wrong a lot isn't really an issue, now, is it?

Some things that should be mentioned as to how scummy Mastin is:

Great, I get to shoot down points against me!

Oh, now, this, this is a TRUE mafia game for me.
Opinions are flying.
Vote counts are dieing.
VP is lying,
And the scumbags are frying.

[/end poetry]

(Some lyrics are there for the purpose of the poem only. Keep in mind I'm a writer, and I like poetry.)

More seriously,

Walls are being built,
I have suspicion being placed on me,
I've managed to catch three scum (VP, Kublai Khan, Lowell, scumminess listed in that order),
We're debating,
We're in a heated fight to the death,
They're caught and know it,
I'm town and they're scum,
I get to fight for my opinions,
Pages are stacking up by the dozens,
etc.

This is how a mafia game should be played. A heated battle to the death. It's discussion to its max. This. Is. Fun.
Seriously, in games where I'm not suspected at all/very little, I literally stop playing. What's the point in playing a game where nobody suspects you?
There's no risk. No reward. No thrill of the hunt. Nothing...exciting.
THIS game, however...
There's a risk. If I lose the fight, I'm lynched--a mislynch, sends us into the night, and with my playstyle, people will write off everything I say as meaningless, and will ignore it, letting VP, Khan, and Lowell fly under the radar.
There's a reward. If I win, then VP is lynched, flips scum, and we're far closer to eliminating all scum.
There's the thrill of the hunt--watching the scum try to defend themselves desperately, and fight back with OMGUS-style attacks.
This game is exciting.
It has what truly makes me happy.
Walls, lots of posts, me having caught scum...
Oh, this is just so much FUN!

^^This is called entrapment at best

Entrapment--laying a trap. In this case, for scum.
What's wrong with that?
Nothing.

but I reiterate my feelings that you were rolefishing.

I. Never. Rolefish. Like, ever. Never in my games, have I rolefished, and I take SERIOUS offense at the accusation. Not as scum. Not as town.

Read it at face value: Me wanting to trap scum.
Stating whether it worked or not, however, would be anti-town to do, because it would give the scum information that they otherwise would not have had, allowing them to safeclaim in the future. (I have a theory on the matter. If I decide to reveal whether the trap ensnared scum or Khan passed, I'll also reveal the theory I have about scum PM's vs. town PM's.)

Really? I wouldn't have guessed.

Summaries suck. Simple.
[/alliteration]
Seriously, though. They don't convey the entire message. If you want the case against me, I will be happy to give you a PBPA on your scummy actions which will prove that you are scum.
But I'm not going to make a summary of the accusations.

Not that hard to understand.

Emerald is not a role, nor does it affect role. Learn what flavor is. kthx

Emerald is PART of the role. Let's look at what the PM's state, and what the flips say:

The Setup

:

This is a closed setup. There is at least one Townie in this game, who will have the following role PM:

You are an

Emerald

Townie

.

The only power you have is your vote, so use it wisely.

You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated, and at least one pro-town player survives.

There may or may not be other town roles. Here is an example of another role PM which may or may not appear in this game:

You are an

Emerald

Doctor

.

Each night, you may target another player in order to protect them from any attempts on their life that night.

You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated, and at least one pro-town player survives.

Note the underlined, and the italicized. Emerald is part of the role, not the flavor.

Sotty7,

Emerald

Townie

[/u] - Slaughtered Night Zero
elvis_knits,

Emerald

Jailkeeper

[/u] - Murdered Night Zero
Konowa,

Cerulean

Mafia

Doctor[/u]

- Annihilated Night Zero

Note the emphasis. They are revealed as Emerald *role*. They get a PM of Emerald *Role*.

The mafia have *Faction* Mafia *Role*--and it stands to reason that they don't have a mention of Emerald in their PM, because Emerald is not part of their role. It's part of all pro-town roles. Failure to specify the Emerald part is a HUGE scum-tell. Lynch anyone who doesn't claim Emerald *role* when claiming, please.

This makes no sense.

Yes, it does. If Khan has a vital role to your faction (be it either Cerulean or the other faction), or you have a small Mafia Faction (this would be ESPECIALLY true if you're Cerulean.), then defending him would be your best shot at winning.

I have no problem defending Khan because HE'S MOST LIKELY A MILLER.

I have no problem attacking either you or Khan because you two are more likely mafia than any other players here.

If I'm wrong

You know you are.

then so be it.

Okay, "so be it"-->Lynch VP. You know that, correct?

You clearly don't know my scum meta if you think I defend my buddies.

1: I'll look into it, but off the top of my head, I don't recall seeing you having attacked them a great deal, either. (Amnesiac, hard to tell, but I don't *think* so. Ongoing game, none come to mind.)

2: And, again, things could be different this game. A smaller mafia faction than one would expect in a game of this size, or Khan being an absolutely vital mafia role (only power role, for example), would make practically any player defend their buddy.

Just a bit?

Of course, only just a bit. She's looked at other suspects as well, you know, and dropped a few fair FoS's every once and a while.

Are you serious?

Yes. I am. I saw a potentially serious slip on your part, and so, I point it out.
VP, really, can you act like caught scum any more?

You need to die for repeatedly accusing people of things that they are clearly not saying.

1: Wants me dead without expressing the opinion of me being scum,

2: I point out what I see--that is what I saw, a potentially huge scumslip.

3: This is not a counter to the point. You're not explaining how it is NOT what you were saying.

Also, why the hell are you responding to points I put to Zazier anyhow?

If I see a slip, and it's not regarding me, do you want me to not point it out?

Really, VP. It doesn't matter who it was directed to. If there's a slip in it, it should be pointed out.

I'm not surprised at all BECAUSE IT'S TRUE.

I'm more of a longsword/revolver-type guy, really. Own two of the former, a few of the latter. Shotguns, not my style.

Everyone, please note that Mastin says that me referring "the town" is a scumtell by referring to "the town".

Well, that's because I'm mirroring your words. I can't word it this way:
"Note how VP is referring to the rest of the town in third person", because that implies that he, himself, is referring to the town as part of it, which contradicts with the accusation that he is not part of it.
While as saying
"Note how VP is referring to the town in third person" is an accusation that he is referring to the town in the third person, not being part of it himself.

Simple logic, really.

I don't know what game this is, but I'm pretty sure I was not in it.

Meant Amnesiac.

I've seen him lurk.

I haven't. :/

It's part of his meta.

I haven't seen him lurk. Links would be appreciated.

Plus you are making this game very boring for everyone else.

Not really. I'm having loads of fun scum hunting. You?

I don't blame him at all.

If I can have links to him having done this before as town, then I wouldn't, either, because he could be excused for it.

Yep, in the 25 pages of epistles you've written, most of the points were about me, a player who has been in the game for two days.

The fact remains, that most of my points have been against you and Khan, who you have been defending, yet you admit "what little scum hunting there is" is good. If the scum hunting is good, yet the points are against you and Khan, then you're essentially admitting to being scum yourself, hence, a scumslip.

You sure got me.

Again, this is not countering my point. You respond to it with sarcasm, yet do not explain how it isn't true, that you made a huge scumslip.

You're not doing a very good job thus far.

Heh. I think I've done a decent job of massacring you and Khan thusfar.

Better try harder.

Alright, I will. You want the case against you, no? A PBPA will do it rather nicely. Against both you and Khan, because you two are linked.

Are you seriously this stupid

Your personal attack against me has been noted.

or are you just trying to be irritating?

Note how he, again, does not counter the point.
I said that because he admitted what scum hunting I have done, when it is mostly against him, to be legit is a huge scumslip. He posts this as an "answer". Try harder, VP. You're making it too easy for me to nail you as scum.

or because they don't exist.

They do. I've even outlined them in some of my games. From memory alone, I can cite every reason there is behind it. But I won't, yet, because it allows you to adjust your style.

Let me show you how to be succinct Mastin. I criticized you for always insinuating how pro-town you are:
VP wrote:

Things you repeatedly bring up again and again to insinuate how pro-town you are:

And I give you a nice little summarized list that is easy to read.
You say:
Mastin wrote:
Okay, let's shoot these all down, one by one.

Then you say:
Mastin wrote:
I do not....Blah Blah Blah

And finally you say:
Mastin wrote:
My actions are always pro-town in nature.


I rest my case.

There is nothing wrong with my style of play. I do not go on with the "Blah Blah Blah"-style stuff you accuse me of.

And the lack of anyone on the Johnny wagon being able to bring an actual summary of the points against him continues.

1: Others have done this--is this an accusation against them as well?

2: And I've already explained that I will not do a summary, but am willing to do a PBPA. Conveniently forgot to mention that, didn't you, VP?

^^Everyone please note Mastin trying to scare you into not voting him

Oh, not really. It's simple. Those who vote for me are scum. They get thwacked by walls of text from me to prove it (making them miserable from having no choice but to respond to it all or die), and IF I am SOMEHOW lynched through all of that, they often will receive SERIOUS attention after that. (There's a risk that people will go "Oh, this is Mastin. Let's ignore the bandwagon on him." But that's poor play, and is not done often.)

Just scroll through Mastin in post 708 and 709 to see all of the complete BS he is accusing people of.

1: I am not doing so; I've proven this.

2: However, I can say the same about you, BS'ing points against me.

-He was fishing for flavor

Trapping scum...

-He is spamming the thread so you do not take time to read his posts

1: I am giving long posts, that if read in detail, would potentially give scumslips.

2: This is a null tell, as I do it in most of my games.

-He repeatedly asserts how pro-town he is

I shot this down already, and you failed to even respond to my counters in your post. Why? Because you know I'm correct and can't counter, of course. They're null tells.

and rather than defending he claims that most scumtells are null against him

1: I HAVE defended. You just didn't QUOTE my defenses!
2: They are null. I do 'em all the time as town.

-He has refused more than once to summarize any points against JR

I asked you if you wanted a PBPA on JR and you--you refused to answer.

-He has misrepped many many people in this thread

I have been stating what I see. Nothing more.

-He's OMGUSing anyone who disagrees with him

Explain how I have agreed with SC, then. And how I've attacked people who agree with me.

If you agree with these points please Unvote, Vote Mastin

Funny, how VP talks of me OMGUS'ing me, and then does it himself.

What happened to your case against MafiaMann?
What happened to you thinking that the case/vote on me was weak?

I can quote your case against Mafia, and quote the fact that you said yourself that you likely weren't going to vote me over a weak case.

---

Have to leave now, sadly, having only responded to VP's case against me. Oh, well. I'll finish 29 and then 30 later.
This was fun enough for a while.

[Mastin]

I would like to start out this post by stating that the timing of VP's vote on me has sparked a theory of mine. As with the flavor-theory, I am afraid that I cannot say it without claiming, but needless to say, one of my comments in my post there makes me think that VP figured something out about me, and panicked.
Now, with that out of the way...

---

Please do. Your opinion is valued, because, well, you're normally an active player.

You are correct. It is a null tell.
My posts are like a coin.
Reading my posts is like flipping the coin.
If it lands on heads, you see how my posts are pro-town.
If it lands on tails, then you see how my posts are anti-town.

But, no matter where the coin will flip, you're not going to get my alignment from the posts; that is because they're null tells. I'm a hard, nearly impossible, read, in fact. While I recently found a possible supertell of mine, other than that, there's no way for anyone to tell what alignment I am.

If people point out something scummy in my posts, I can not only
-Explain why it isn't,
but also
-Give examples of me doing the "scummy" thing as a pro-town player. (Most of the time. Sometimes, it's an ongoing game, meaning no link, no quote, without mod permission.)

Fishing for flavor,

Setting a trap.

misrepping,

1: Giving my opinions.

2: I've been accused of misrepping before. See 742, the best example of this off the top of my head. The accusations were false, sure, but they were still made.
So IF you accuse me of a misrep, I can prove how the supposed misrep (which is me just calling it as I see it) is a null tell from me.

Really, VP. I gave the links to all of my completed games. Don't tell me you didn't even glance at any of them. I gave them to prove these things as null tells, and opinions long-standing from me.

OMGUSing tons of people,

1: I accused you, and had my vote on you, long before you voted me. I went for a while thinking Khan was town, but Zazie's posts, some of Khan's blunders, and some review made me realize he's not. Lowell blatantly buddied up, and also, defended Khan a great deal from MULTIPLE PEOPLE, me the LEAST of them.
That's not OMGUS.
That's scum hunting.

2: And, again...look at my games. I could've technically been OMGUS'ing And and Kier. Chainsaw defense made me suspect Ace,
Same with Mikek here,

If memory serves, I did it here as well,

And so on.
Consider your point pwned via my meta.

and claiming your actions are always pro-town

I've addressed this, VP. I said, SEVERAL TIMES, that my actions are NULL tells. Sure, that means not scum, but it

also

means NOT TOWN.

Let's give a few examples, shall we?

They were all clustered in one specific area, in fact. VP ignored most of them. Enlarged size, bolded, italicized, and underlined added for emphasis.

most scumtells are null against such a "unique" individual like you,

This is me saying that they're

NULL

tells

. Meaning

NOT SCUM

,

BUT ALSO

NOT TOWN AS

WELL

[/b].

you claim sole responsibility for moving the game out of RVS,

So, what? It might be a pro-town action to do,

but it's a

null

tell[/i]

; I'd do it regardless of alignment.
[/b]

you inflate your importance in moving the discussion along,

I got us discussing. That's, again, a pro-town action (why I listed it as pro-town to do),

But something that I'd do

regardless of alignment

.

Making it a

null

tell[/i][/b]

.

you are scumhunting so very very much.

Explain to me how good scum hunting isn't pro-town.

<<< Mastin Edited In Note: This was

NOT

me stating that I was pro-town, as VP claims. It was me stating that my

scum hunting

was pro-town

, which is an entirely different matter. That's playstyle. >>>

should have to be constantly referencing these things and their actions should speak for themselves.

The thing is, I'm not.
I insist that most of these things are

null

tells[/u]

.
That means

null

--

NOT SCUM,

NOT

TOWN

.

Do you have worries that yours do not?

My actions are always pro-town in nature. They might be seen as anti-town to others, but they've also got the pro-town side of the coin as well.

It's a

null

tell[/u],

though, my posting style. [/b]

I've been insisting my actions are null tells. Not town tells as VP claims.
Can we lynch the lying scum b*content censored*, please? Let's make the Vice President, Baltar, get reelected to the noose.

If you want me to, I'll go digging for me insisting that my actions are null tells in other games as well. I can easily find stating that voting myself is a null tell (For example, I asked ekiM to confirm it here), but for my actions, that might be a bit harder. (Blasted ongoing games...)

are solid scumtells that I am quite sure he does not do all the time.

And I just proved you wrong.

They all are, actually. I just pwned VP's assumption by proving his points false, via meta and my own actions this game.

What makes you fairly sure of that?

Because it is, of course.

Also, voting VP Baltar is pro-town.

Fixed.

I figured as much.

Sucks.

Oh, don't get me wrong--it's because of those reasons that I'm not voting Khan.

Khan's scummy. But I do not think he should be the day one lynch. It'd be almost as bad as lynching a claimed cop, day one. (Same role mechanic in the claim.) He DOES need to die, as caught scum. Just not today.

Today would be much better spent lynching VP Baltar.

My point 4 continues to be relevent to a number of people in the game.

And, well, I disagree with it. I have previously taken the stance of two experienced players familiar with each other going at it being two pro-town players going at each other (ask Zaz. She was one of the two), but I don't think that is the case this game.

I think that players like (but not exclusively) Mastin, VP, KK, Zaz, Lowell and roflcopter are all using preconcieved ideas to further convince themselves that the people they are attacking are scum.

VP's scum. Khan's very likely scum. Lowell's at third. Rofl's just rofl, and if his lurking is part of his meta, then he can be excused. Zaz is pro-town.

I've gone over the reasoning why multiple times. I believe that we should get rid of VP today.

Why didn't people notice stuff like the fact Achilles posts scummy stuff EVERY POST,

I forget which, but I recall liking one of Achilles's posts.

or FA and MafiaMann's little conversations?

Quite personally, I had noted them as, at best, things that look like a null tell. They do seem a bit scummy from it, but other than those two, I don't see anyone else linked together to form a mafia team in just those two.
I do, however, see a strong VP-Khan-Lowell link. Three's better than two, no?

Untrue - it's listed as a Cerulean Mafia Doctor.

Same thing. Cerulean Doctor, not Emerald Doctor, a sample PM given on the first page.
Cerulean Mafia Doctor, just being more specific about an already-known fact.

Just take a closer look at the sample PM's given on the first page.
It gives the information about what an Emerald Doctor's pm would look like if in the game. It specifically showed Emerald Doctor.
We had a Cerulean (Mafia) Doctor.
You don't need the Mafia phrase in there to get the message that the doctor's a member of the mafia. What's Cerulean going to be for when we have Emerald, a serial killer? Nah; it's mafia.

That is significant because your entire argument is that Emerald specifies town in a larger way than just flavour.

It does.
Emerald-->Town.
Cerulean-->A Mafia Faction/Family. The fact that it says Mafia in their PM's doesn't change the fact that they're not going to remember to change their *Faction Name* *role they want to claim* into Emerald *role they want to claim*.

As soon as you see the word mafia there, you realise you could remove the colours completely and still have a cogent town vs non-town role.

Yet it works vice versa as well:
You can remove the Mafia part, and still deduce that Emerald-->Town,
Cerulean-->Mafia.

If the word 'mafia' wasn't there, someone could claim doctor and it we would not be able to say whether it was a pro-town doc or not

And think about it--

Let's use that Cerulean Roleblocker example again:

Say the PM says "You're a Cerulean Mafia Roleblocker". The person wants to claim.
They INSTANTLY will remove the Mafia part of their PM. And as Cerulean is a specific type of mafia, they'll likely remove that as well.
Leaving just Roleblocker.
"Claim: Roleblocker". Oops, no Emerald, that person's scum.

Where as a pro-town player, who gets a PM, say, saying "You're an Emerald Roleblocker", and they want to claim...

"Claim: Emerald Roleblocker".

This works for Mafia claiming a role they are not.

Say a PM says "You're a Cerulean Mafia Goon." The person wants to claim Miller.
Drop the Mafia, of course. Drop the Cerulean, because it's the type of mafia. Change Goon to Miller, and...

"Claim: Miller." Same mistake. No Emerald.

Does that clarify my thought process?

But since the word mafia is there, it is immediately obvious, colour or not, that the person is either town or anti-town, making the colour merely flavour, and thus KK leaving it out originally much less significant.

Emerald isn't flavor. It's part of the role.
Someone can be a Roleblocker. But if they're not an Emerald Roleblocker, they're scum. Why? Because Emerald is a pro-town player's PM. Leaving out the Emerald part is leaving out a vital part of their claim.

Bolded for emphasis. Presumably mafia would also get a colour with their role, and even if they didn't they could easily tell from the bodies and the vanilla townie PM that a colour was involved.

Doesn't change the fact that they're less likely to remember the "Emerald" phrase in their role PM.

I think this argument is not only a foolish endeavour, it may be scummy in and of itself because it contains a desire to put deep significance on the 'flavour faction' of mafia

1: Unless the mod outlaws it, I encourage using flavor in cases. Scum PM's can differ from town PM's.

2: But, again, Emerald isn't flavor. It's part of the PM; if someone leaves that vital part of their PM out, then they're scum.

I would imagine that the people who care what colour faction a player flips are FAR more likely to be mafia than town, because it's significant to them whether it is one type of faction or another. I think that's a possible scumtell.

Possible scum tell, sure.
In reality, a scum tell? Not so much.

Meh, kinda have.

Eh, not in my opinion. I have VP, Khan, and Lowell pegged as scum, but look at other alternatives as well, like Mafia.

You went through the 30 quotes I posted and found the ones pertaining to you and Rotten/KK only.

I wanted to go through them all, but I was a bit short on time and couldn't get it all.

Yep, that's still a threat.

There's no threat in a fact.
I'm stating what has happened. People (scum) HAVE been nailed for pushing my lynch, and me flipping town. People (any who attack me) get miserable when they attack me due to me responding to their attacks, and counter-attacking, creating huge walls of text.

It's simple, really.
I have fun when attacked.
If I'm not being attacked, I have no fun.
When I am having no fun, I will post shorter posts.
And when I am having loads of fun, I will post wall after wall of text.

Which means that those who attack me end up regretting it later, because they not only have to live through my walls, but they also have to accept that pushing for my mislynch will make them look terrible the next day.

In fact it's just a poor one, because lets face it, we'll cop walls of text anyway

Not as many.

and if someone aims to get you lynched knowing they'll get lynched the next day, a good townie should still push through it and criticize you, whereas scum would be more fearful of their own life.

It's called "point of no return".

A quote from a television show regarding a person shooting himself with another person's gun to frame him:

"Oh, the gun. Leave it, and it looks bad. Take it, and it looks even worse."

Once a person attacks me, and attacks me hard, there's no going back on it. They look bad for continuing. They look worse for stopping. I push for their lynch, even when they stop pushing for mine, so they have no choice but to push my lynch as scum, because if they don't, instead of getting lynched the next day, they get lynched THAT day.

Something of content happened (ie not RVS - KK claims). You react to that and rofl finds you scummy.

My reactions were that of the RVS. I was reacting that way for fun. (I had a lot. )

Rofl made my joking responses into scummy responses--the most scummy interpretation possible. Tunneling on me.

It's not a huge deal. It's annoying, to say the least, and rather anti-town, but rofl's rofl, who is known for this.

It was just about the only thing he could genuinely focus on, and noone else had done much at all, so it's impossible to tell whether he had tunnel vision on you or not.

It took him forever to unvote, and that was due to the fact that he couldn't get anyone to go along with him. Because the scum want me dead, now, though, he's revoted me.

Definitely seems like tunneling to me.

I'm not buying the wagon on Mastin.

That's because it's largely scum-driven.

I take issue with some of what he says and some of his conclusions, but at the end of the day I count about 30,000 words from Mastin and I have trouble with about 5 sentences within them.

I still don't see the issue. My actions here have been null. I do this kind of thing regardless of alignment.

- I agree about fishing for flavour.

Look, when I reveal whether the trap worked or not, I will prove why the assumption that I was flavor-fishing was absolutely false. I've opened a notepad document and saved my thoughts there, just in case I forget later on.

- More evidence please. I think there's been very little misrepresentation.

1: I've stated that these so-called misrepresentations are just me posting my opinion,

2: And even if they weren't, I have a meta to back up doing this as town. VP lost on this point.

---

---

Oh, man, talk about fun!

[Mastin]

If I can go through his last two posts and point out all the misreps and hyperbole in the horrible cases he is pushing, will you vote him?

For every reason you attack me, I can provide two in defense. (Literally. Proving why you are wrong, and then meta of me doing this as town.)

I know I'm coming on a bit strong with this case,

Nonsense. You're pushing for it exactly at the level I'd expect for you to push it. (Hard, like scum would, mind you.)

but it has nothing to do with egos or reputations.

Agreed. It has to do with wanting to catch the scum--you, Khan, and Lowell, amongst others.

I don't even hardly know who Mastin is outside of one ongoing game I was with him in.

That is painfully obvious by your attitude towards my playstyle, VP.

Also, I'm not OMGUSing him.

Uh, yes. You are. You built a very solid case against Mafia, and declared the case against me as weak/insignificant/something like that.
And then, after I go HARD against you and Khan, you vote me. Throw away the Mafia case to vote your attacker.
That's OMGUS.

I criticized him in my first content post of the game.

You criticized my playstyle, and resorted to personal attacks. You weren't calling me scum.

That is when he came with a whole bunch of garbage about how I'm scum.

I had been voting Johnny for a long time, and pointed out a whole bunch of scummy comments from you LONG before those posts, VP.

KK also criticized him.

My suspicions on KK are not related to that at all. He's done many scummy things which have been outlined. (I can outline those myself as well, but that's going to be another PBPA.)

As did Lowell.

Lowell entered the game with extreme buddying (mainly to everyone attacking me) and a HUGE defense of Khan, along with attacking pretty much EVERYONE attacking Khan.

Suddenly we end up on a scum team together.

Because you three are linked like no others. You defend Khan, and attack me, plus Zaz. Khan votes me, yet attacks Zaz. There's that early link pointed out as well, Lowell does an EXTREME defense of you and buddies up heavily.

Yea. You're scum together, alright. I've nailed you on day one; you're going to push with all your might to get me lynched, because you know that if I don't end up lynched, you'll be exposed day one.
And you do not want that.

A theory he claims has a 60% likelyhood of being correct.

Incorrect.

I said 90% of one.
75% of two.
And AT LEAST 60% for all three being scum.

There is a HUGE difference.

VP's conveniently leaving out a large amount of facts again to support his case. What more evidence do you need that he is scum? That PBPA?

That's just being ridiculous,

If it were true, yes. But I specifically said that there was a FAR greater percentage in 1/2 of you being scum, AND said "at least", meaning that the 60% was the MINIMUM.

VP keeps on leaving out things that are inconvenient to him, in order to strengthen his own case and weaken mine.

and to me it looks like scum trying to strong arm the town.

That would be you, not me.
"Voting Mastin is pro-town" comes to mind.

Spamming the thread could be a valid scum tactic

Hmm...
Let's see...
I've several times outlined why long posts are potentially pro-town.

And HUNDREDS of times posted like this in my games.

735 was the start,

It got worse in 742,

I got bullied into shorter posts later,

And it carried on from here,

And this happened at the same time.

I was back to my old habits again, though, even through the fact that my posts were far and few between. They were still long, though.

And the rest are all ongoing.

But you get the pattern.

Long posts are what I am made of, VP.

Heck, I'll be getting a title soon because of it (Unabridged).

So, no.

"Spamming the thread" is NOT a scum tactic.
Want me to try and track down my reasoning throughout my games as to why my long posts can be pro-town?

because who is really going to read all that stuff?

Anyone who wants to play.
Size enlarged for emphasis.

It takes me less than ten minutes to read most of my own posts, half an hour max. They take

HUNDREDS

of times longer to write than they do to read! I am a slow reader, so if I can do it, so can ANY other player, so those using this as a case against me are pushing for an absolute BS case.

There. You can't miss that, people, unless you're truly trying/are scum.

Oh, and, while we're at it. Let's make sure people don't miss the part about VP, Specifically,

VP is leaving out MANY of the facts, conveniently skipping over key details and ignoring my meta altogether.

Do you think on day 3 or 4 you would be able to read Mastin in iso?

Me in iso?
Heck, I can't read myself in Iso.
Just do page-by-page. It's easier, the old fashioned way, so to speak. It works for me. I find it hard to read practically any player in isolation day 3 or 4--they're too many posts and some are long.

Old fashioned way is better.

At best it's anti-town.

It is a coin. It has a pro-town side, and an anti-town side.

There is no "pro-scum" side, or "pro-town" side.

Also, constantly stating you are pro-town is a scumtell in my book.

I think I effectively proved that I was not doing this.

It work on a psychological level to reassure people through its repetition.

Heh. I described this to a player:

You're a claimed *role*. (Role will be referred to as X for ease.)

You say You're X constantly. You're accused of psychologically manipulating others.

You say you're the claimed X.
People will say "claimed? I thought you WERE X! Die scum die!", accusing you of having doubts that you're X, and accuse you of being scum because of it.

There's no way to win.

I mean, don't you find it a bit ridiculous for someone to say that their actions are "always pro-town"?

My actions always are, though, VP.
Yet at the same time, they're always anti-town.
See my coin example again.
They're both pro-town, and anti-town.

But they're not a sign of my alignment. Making it a

NULL

TELL

.

Now, there's not a way I can think of to make that more clear.

Not stating the case against me could be a scum tell.

And I offered you a PBPA to present the Case in the most efficient way.

I asked many times.

And I asked, many times, if you wanted a PBPA. YOU NEVER ANSWERED.

My feeling is that there isn't much of a real case there,

The case itself is very strong, VP. There's just no way to summarize it without making it weaker.

so stating it in bulleted points would show how weak that wagon is.

Summarized cases can be shot down with far greater ease than an actual case.

No scum wants to do that because they still think I'm a viable mislynch.

I have

Several times offered you to do a PBPA against you. You have NOT responded to that.

Misrep and hyperbole evidence will come sometime today when I have time to go over his posts.

And I will counter it shortly after that.

I will also include the completely awful reasoning he has in some of his other points.

Force me to look at my own posts for actual in-thread quotes to counter your selective quoting.

I have seen mastin as town,

Know who suspected me?
One player.
Out of 24 or so players alive.
I got bored.
And was busy in other games.

Not being suspected is boring.

Look at 141, for example. I was bored, there. Nanook was kinda sorta suspicious of me, for mostly OMGUS-like reasons.

and he definitely did not make such bad points in that game.

Go to the mafia wiki.

Type in,

Mastin's Insane Tells

letter for letter.

That's my logic, VP.

I think he is reaching for cases here.

This is how I truly play. That game, you know me from?
It's a joke. A seriously bad joke. I was bored. No suspicion, no motivation.

This game?
My natural playstyle.

As far as the OMGUSing, I encourage you to look at how Mastin flips out as soon as some of the replacements start attacking him.

No, VP.

-My vote had been on Johnny WELL BEFORE YOU REPLACED IN.
And I had been suspicious of him, even giving a case against him. And you only amplified it.

-I was suspicious of Khan through all of his scummy comments,

-And Lowell did some seriously scummy things in his entry to the game.

I had no suspicion on SC, who also attacked me, because he was doing it in a pro-town way, and had no buddying, no defending, no chainsawing.

However, I also mentioned mastin in my first content post.

Know what?
I won't save this for the PBPA and will just do it now.
Let's look at your first content post.

In the meantime, I'd like to say this: Mastin, if you spent less time in your posts jerking off to how great you think you are (cause that is what you are doing 70% of the time) perhaps you would be effective at scumhunting.

A personal attack.

Not an accusation.
Just an attack against me.

As it is, you're just spamming the thread with a lot of useless crap, and what is useful scumhunting is buried somewhere in there.

Another personal attack ("Spamming the thread with useless junk"), no accusation.

I think out of the twelve pages I read, there was at most 5 pages of actual game being played and the rest was Mastin saying, "If the best of every player on the site was put together, that would be me!"

A manipulation of my words. Blatant twisting, actually.
No accusation.

Seriously, get over yourself and actually

learn how to play the game.

More personal attacks against me.
Yet no accusation.

I don't believe you are even keeping what you're saying straight, so just knock it off.

Finally an accusation, this one of me not being consistent. Tells me to "knock it off".

If this is your normal playstyle, then you need to change it because it's really annoying and not as pro-town as you seem to have led yourself to believe.

Personal attack, admits that this might be my natural playstyle, and yet, no accusation.

Sorry if the noobs who think it's cool get offended, but it's true.

A seriously personal attack. No accusation.

Please begin dismantling your shrines post haste. [/venting over so much useless information]

This, I also took as a personal attack. And no accusation.

In other news, I'm not sure why people are ignoring MafiaMann and the giant red scum arrow pointing to his head. Just saying.

Accuses MAFIA, not me.

Unvote Off to work, I'll try and read the rest tonight.

And unvotes me.

That's VP's post's mention of me.

Yes, you mentioned me, VP. A great deal.
You didn't voice any true accusation towards me, but instead, were targeting Mafia.

He has acted scummy, and I probably wouldn't have pursued him if he didn't start bringing such horrible cases against people.

You started attacking me only after it was clear I would not back down. Not vice versa. I attacked you. You asked me to stop. I attacked you for the way you asked me to stop. You pretty much attack me after that, and OMGUS me. There might be more of you saying my style's anti-town and asking me to stop, and more attacks against you, but the pattern remains the same.

It is clear he is thrashing about now that the easy targets of KK and JR have come into a bit of doubt.

If KK and JR were easy targets, they would have had plenty of votes before I suspected them.
I was one of the first to suspect both of them, if you look back.
No, I was not targeting easy targets.
I was targeting those who were extremely scummy, like you and your selective quoting.

If Khan already told us he was a miller, than what is the problem with asking for more flavor?

Wicked's post here accurately reflects my opinion.
There is no rolefishing when asking for information from an already claimed individual.
Only scum hunting (via laying traps).

Because Mastin was asking for things like 'why you came to Emerald land' and other backstory crap that is not in my town pm.

Like I said, it was a trap for Khan.

He was clearly trying to find out what the flavor in the town pms is so if he had to fakeclaim later he'd be believable.

I have ways to prove this false. Not going to say how, right now, though.

That is rolefishing.

You have admitted that it is very possible I was laying a scum trap.

Which I did.
(Want your own quotes to prove it?)

He disputes this and claims he was trying to set a trap,

My RVS posts are also a trap. Which you also failed, VP.

My posts are filled with traps.

however when Hayker (I believe) asks him if his pm contains any of that kind of information Mastin calls it rolefishing.

I am unclaimed. Asking me is rolefishing.

Khan is not unclaimed, as in, he is claimed.
That's scum hunting.

This is indicative of how he has been trying to have it both ways all game.

Metagaming me in defense has always worked, people using it against me have always failed. I've been accused of trying to have it both ways then, proven town by a lynch-flip.

Really, VP.
Scum tells don't work nearly as well against me, because I am trapping scum with my posts.

I have dealt with this before, Mafia. It takes maybe thirty minutes tops to read my posts. Responding to them, sure, that can take hours if you do it line by line, but individually, not so much. You can respond to the most vital points in a post, and just summarize the rest if you don't want to comment on it.

Yea...Mafia... You aren't linked to VP; that's almost sure. But we have two scum factions; you easily could be a member of the other due to things such as this.

Misrep, Shoddy reasoning, and Contradictions: A 45-point Review on Why Mastin is Scummy

Note how he says "Scummy" and not "Scum". Because he knows that I am likely pro-town, and that I am very doubtfully scum, although I might be scummy.
I'll respond to it shortly. Going to post this before I'm logged out (...again. <_<).

---

---

Let's do a summary, although I hate it.

-It takes FAR LESS TIME THAN YOU THINK to read my posts. You don't HAVE to respond to everything. Skip what I'm quoting; it saves time. Skim if you have to.
-VP has been flat-out ignoring many of my points, conveniently leaving them out. He's selectively quoting my arguments, leaving out the explanations that make it less likely for me to be scum.
-I *am* willing to give a case on Johnny. A full-blown PBPA, for that matter. VP left this fact out.
-I blew VP's points full of holes about my actions this game being scummy, not only by proving that they're false, but also giving links of similar behavior as a pro-town role.

[Mastin]

For the purposes of this academic analysis I shall be reviewing post 708 and 709.

Because you seem to insist that my scummy behavior started there. More like my increased aggressiveness against you.

This is merely a small cross section of his posts in this game, and yet there is a huge amount of scummy points and absurd stretches of logic being made here.

The same can be said for any player.

Let's say, I look at a player who makes an average of one scummy comment per paragraph.
If they post one paragraph, that's one scummy comment.
If they post ten paragraphs, that's ten.

The longer a post, the more potentially scummy comments that can be in there theoretically if done correctly. Like your selective quoting of my posts. That makes them look scummy, sure, but then I log on, and post the full thing, thereby, exposing your lies.

First he claims that lowell is buddying with me because he said this:

What's wrong with stating the truth?
Lowell was buddying up to you.

Very happy with VPs first post.

The fact that he was very happy with your first post should prove that it was, in fact, buddying up to you.

His take on the miller situation is well put

He is congratulating you further in the wording here, VP.

(Zazie's pursuit of it looks worse than KKs response to said pursuit)

He attacks Zazie, and by extent, defends Khan.

as is his take on mastin's post-walls of idiocy.

And not only personal attacks me (like you), but ignores my meta of having done this many times (like you).

That. Is. Buddying. Defending. Chainsawing.

All I see here is mild agreement.

And I see huge buddying, chainsaw defending, etc.

What I think is far more likely in this case is that lowell said that mastin makes "post-walls of idiocy" and mastin is OMGUSing becase he took it personally.

No. I haven't taken offense at my playstyle being attacked, like, ever. Because, well, I see how it can be anti-town.
But it is also pro-town.
The coin, VP. The coin.
It really is my playstyle.

I *did* take the "idiocy" part personally, because that is a personal attack. The mod has been very lenient thusfar on those matters, but that doesn't change what it is.

Attacking my playstyle, not offensive. (If done correctly, it *can* be pro-town. However, most of the time, it is a scum tell because they're attacking me in a certain way. Know my RVS comments? Yea, those? Reactions to those can be either pro-town, or pro-scum, and there's a very distinct difference between them. VP, you fall on the scum side.)

As far as I know this is the only real time that lowell even mentions me.

Okay, let's look at Lowell in Isolation, shall we?
Bolded--An attack/defense/buddying.
Underlined--Defense.
Italicized--Buddying.
Strike--Neutral/null tells, which might be ways to prevent taking a stance on someone, most likely, partners.

From the beginning:

8- mastin selfvotes [-, grandstanding]

11- kublai votes mastin, claims MILLER [+, approve of this tactic]

18- mastin claims jester

22- rofl votes mastin [+, needed]

43- newbish post from hayker [-, too newbish]
51- fallen questions rofl for tunnelvision on mastin
52- rofl calls fallen scum w/ mastin
59- rofl well explains why scum-miller claim isn't likely [+]

60- johnny finds voting scummy [?]

85- faraday votes hayker [+]
102- hayker argues over RVS [-, smoke and mirrors]
110s-120s- mafiamann and ckool argue, sort of [--, both look bad, too tame]
142- namttam votes hayker for his obsession with RVS [+, my sentiments exactly]

166- zazie points out KK's vig-slip [-, mediocre]

180s- hayker defends himself
213- fallen posts full playerlist [-, only takes on easy targets for possible scum]

219- johnny votes mastin, calls him a detriment to the town [+]

232- zazie explains why there's probably two scumteams
260s- fallen and mafiamann get into really dumb argument [-, both]
270s- ckool tries to be loved [-]
284- reveillark posts his suspicions [+]

292- rofl wants to lynch mastin, fallen, hayker, maifamann [++, me too!]

307- emp votes fallen
311- achilles enters, posts thoughts [+, town read]

336- emp votes KK [-]

344- wicked enters, votes johnny for not voting [-, ages ago, minor point]

346- ckool votes KK

354- hayker explains absencse [-], votes johnny for having "bad" posts [-, terrible, reeks of "ANYONE BUT ME!!"]

357- mafiamann votes hayker [+]
363- reveil votes johnny
367- johnny leads w/ 5 votes
377- ckool explains elaborate 'LOL' scumtell [+, clever, actually]
389- fallen votes ckool for coaching
406- fallen misses his mastin [-, dumb]
411- rofl votes hayker

Some thoughts:

I have strong town reads on the following:

rofl- he's right in post 52, 59, and I especially approve of his list in 292. He gets points

for being willing to say mastin's play is scummy as hell.

farady- he had me at hello (post 85). since then everything he's done looks town.
ckool- tries too hard to be loved, but the attacks on him lately seem weak and contrived.

kublai khan- LOVE first post miller claims. ROFL's 59 explains why it's almost certainly true. In a game with three KNOWN killing factions, scum claiming miller is unlikely at best.

The following players are scummy and need death:

mastin and friends- here's what bothers me about mastin's playstyle. Every two posts someone is there to quell any suspicion by saying "oh, he ALWAYS does that." Well, if he always does that, and he's not helping town (he really isn't), I don't know what I'm supposed to think other than scum. I have a nagging feeling that this is part of his plan, and I don't like that he seemed to enter with a lot of allies willing to get his back. I didn't record all the specific instances where everyone said stuff like "oh, well, that's mastin for ya' *eyeroll*" but the fact that they're there at all worries me.

hayker- 102 is terrible and a clear diversion from real issues. His defense in the 180s does nothing for me, and 354 reeks of "please don't kill me!" bandwagonny.
fallen- 213 is an awful post. In it he mindlessly identifies the two easiest (non-him) targets as possible scum, and even there doesn't go out on a limb far enough to make anyone angry. He's playing way too safe, and posts like 406 look like he's trying to stay on the good side of the active posters.
mafiamann- he's involved in two supremely dumb arguemnts: in the 110s-120s with ckool and in the 260s with fallen. Both look tentative.


As a policy I haven't read (nor will I) any of mastin's inane long posts. If anything of import happens in them, I'll rely on others to convey it. I'm torn between voting him or fallen, but for now I'll vote fallen

Lowell shows EXTREME buddying/defense of rofl/Khan AND Johnny in that post.

The kublai thing is a sideshow.

Tries to distract us from Khan...

He doesn't see the case at all... (Not pro-town. Pro-town is to either see the case, agree with it, and vote off of it, or to acknowledge the case is legit, but disagree with it being the lynch, etc.)

The buddying I mentioned here...

After having wanted a FA lynch but backing down, votes Hayker for a "rival bandwagon",
And then,
Later goes to me. The date shows Saturday; I imagine that was earlier today, after you posted your cases, VP.

He has
-Chainsaw Defended Khan and Johnny
-Buddied up to several individuals, including Khan, and you, VP,
-And attacked your/Khan's top suspects in his posts.

Yea...buddying is definitely a legitimate charge against Lowell.

To propose it is buddying is absurd hyperbole.

If a person says,
"Hi, I agree with Alduskkel on matters XX and YY. He voted for the scum, VOTE: ZZ" as a RVS-style post,
Would you consider it buddying?
It's only one post, right?
(Off-topic: I'm mentioning Ald as an example just because I have a habit of doing it unintentionally, and the fact that he noticed it made me start doing it intentionally. )

Yea...one post is enough. That'd be an RVS post, sure. "Just the RVS", riiiiight?
Wrong.

Buddying is a scum tell that applies from any single post in the thread. (Not friendship bias, though. That's different. Friendship bias-->Having played with them before, liked their play, and from then on, thinking of them as a fairly pro-town player. Admittedly, I'm guilty of doing this, but, hey, it's not a scum tell, because it's a subconscious thing. Buddying, conscious and intentional.)

If this is Mastin's definition of buddying,

It is.

he would have to extend it to anyone in the game whoever agreed with anybody else.

I call out buddying when I see it. If someone agrees with another, then I'll point it out as possible buddying, if I notice it.

2) Khan asks Zazie if she is a Lyncher.

That's rolefishing. It's not scum. Hence, it's rolefishing. I don't give a d*censored* about the fact that it's a third party role; why don't you just scream "MASTIN IS A JESTER!" every game while you're at it?
It's rolefishing.

Mastin claims this is rolefishing,

It is.

but how can someone be fishing for an anti-town role?

Because it's anti-scum as well. If someone asks you if you're any role but scum, then it's rolefishing. If someone asks you if you're the M. Godfather, not rolefishing.
Lyncher? Rolefishing.
Jailer? Rolefishing.
Cop? Rolefishing.
Jester? Still rolefishing.
M. Goon? Not rolefishing.

More false accusations.

And as I just showed, this is false.
Anti-town can also mean anti-scum, you know.

An unquoted accusation that makes no sense.

Says the buddy to the person being accused.

Khan claimed miller.

Did not he say what type of miller he was earlier?
Then why the confusion?

Zazie and Mastin (and a third part I think, perhaps Kise) did demand to know if he was a miller or death miller.

Then should you not be making these accusations against them as well, instead of just me?
Tunneling at best, here.

These are facts, so what is the contradiction?

He said: Asked for more information that he had.
I ask:
Didn't you claim to know what type of miller you were?
Because,
Knowing what type of miller he is-->Being able to answer the question. ("What kind of a miller are you?)
More information than what he has-->Not able to answer the question.

---
On a side-note, I'm having so much fun here, you wouldn't believe it. VP, you're a fine foe to duel with.

This has already been pointed out to be utter crap.

1: Personal attack.
2: I've already explained why it IS legit. See my example given earlier, about the Cerulean Roleblocker claiming Roleblocker, and the Cerulean Goon claiming Miller.

Mastin repeatedly comes back to this point, which is really insignificant and it makes complete sense why someone would just say miller.

Because...
IT IS A LEGIT POINT.

Not specifying Emerald, when it is one of the FIRST things listed in the sample PM's, is a SCUM TELL.

Just look how much he harps on this point in 709.

And your problem with that? It's a truly legit point.

Again he is stretching to make something that isn't really scummy look scummy.

The thing is...

IT

IS

SCUMMY.

Emerald is one of the first things it says in any given Town PM. Look to the first post for proof.
A good claim would look something like this:

I am an Emerald *role*. *details of role here*.

The Emerald part is part of the Role, not flavor. It is VITAL that people specify this in their claims, because if they do not, then they are scum.

Khan says Mastin may be implying something about the setup of the game.

Which is rolefishing. How is implying that someone knows something about the setup NOT rolefishing?
People of ANY alignment might know key details about the setup. He was rolefishing.

Mastin claims it is rolefishing.

AND a baseless accusation. You left that part out conveniently, though, didn't you?

These are not really related, but accusing someone of rolefishing makes them sound scummy. Misrep.

Implying that I might know something about the setup IS rolefishing.
And, get this:

Rolefishing

IS

scummy!

It doesn't make them "sound scummy".
It points out how they ARE scummy.

There is no "misrep" here, VP. Just an empty accusation from you.

If it is such a HUGE scumslip, why is he voting for me?

Because,

1: While I think Khan is scum, I do not believe he should be the day one lynch (rofl raised good points about this),
and
2: While I think Khan is scum, I am FAR more certain that you are scum, from all of the scummy things you have done this game.

More exaggeration.

No.
It IS a huge scum tell.
But see above for why Khan does not have my vote.

My feeling is that because I'm attacking him harder than Khan, he feels the need to reciprocate.

The thing is,

I was attacking you

FAR before you started attacking me

; the attacks were

ALSO against your PREDECESSOR

.

Again pointing out how no one should be calling him scummy.

No.

If I give evidence to support that my supposed "scummy activity" is really just a null tell from me, then it's no longer a scum tell, and can be ignored, because it's my natural playstyle, a null tell, and not a scum tell.

This is me stating a

simple metagaming

FACT that can be applied to ANY PLAYER

.

If I give proof that shows, via meta, why my so-called scummy activity is null,

THEN IT IS DARN-RIGHT PROBABLE THAT THE "scummy" ACTIVITY IS ACTUALLY A

NULL TELL

.

Empty threats of long posts,

Empty threats of a long post?!?

VP,

I was asking you if you wanted the accusations against you in a PBPA!

Really.
For someone who accuses me of Misrepping, you sure seem to like doing it a lot yourself.

which no one wants to read.

That's their problem. But I was specifically asking

YOU

if you wanted me to do the PBPA on you and Johnny. Which you had ignored, stating that I refused to summarize the case on Johnny.
When, in truth, I was asking you whether you wanted me to not give the points, or to do a PBPA to best-explain the points, because summaries are easier to shoot down.

VP, you've been
1: Selectively quoting
and
2: Stretching, something you're accusing me of,
In this matter.

If I'm so blatantly scummy, then why can't the general ideas at least be summed up?

Because summaries are easier to shoot down.
------
On another side-note, it should be noted that even as scum, I *never* lie about anything except my alignment. I have NEVER spewed a load of supposed junk that I don't believe. The proof is in my record, if you look at my scum games. (Like my view on pushing policy lynches)
------

I've asked and asked and have seen jacksquat.

And, in turn, I've asked and asked YOU if you want a PBPA,

The most efficient and accurate way of delivering the accusations against you

.

And have seen no answer to the request.

Also, why has no one else accused me of being scum if it's so completely obvious?

You HAVE been accused of being scum. Proof is in the old vote counts. At least five or six (whatever the top of the wagon was), in fact.

This is complete WIFOM.

No.
Asking if Khan knew about the things rofl posted is NOT wifom. It is a serious question, that needs to be answered.
If Khan didn't know, he's more likely to be scum, who didn't think over his fakeclaim well enough.

---

Ah, drat. I have to leave now. But I'm having so much fun!

Ah, well. I'll get to the rest, later.

[Mastin]

Ah, good to be back. It's so much fun, this game.

I left off at point ten.

My play is consistent, if you know what you're looking for.

But I'm even MORE different than an average player...

Translation: It's not my fault if you find me scummy, and I will not answer any accusations against me.

He restates that here:

This is NOT what EITHER of those quotes said.

1: My play is consistent. It means that there might be inconsistencies on sight, but if you know what to look for and know that I'm, well, me, you'll find that my play is consistent.
There is NOTHING in there that even REMOTELY says "I will not answer any accusations against me", nor "It's not my fault if you find me scummy".
It is me saying that I'm only scummy if you don't know where to look.

The two are TOTALLY different.

I was stating, in response to SC's point that every player is different, so scum tells should remain constant,

That by MANY players' admitions, I am even more different than, say, a normal person. Meaning, what many see as scum tells against me aren't scum tells, but rather, null tells, because I'm Me, Mastin, Zwetschenwasser times ten in many (not all, of course. ) ways.

IN NO WAY does that translate to "It's not my fault if you find me scummy", nor "I will not answer any accusations against me".

Again, VP.
You accuse me of misrepping.
It is only fair that I do the same to you.

It was a trap, on a player already claimed.
Those rolefishing me are asking for information from me, when I have not claimed.

This is being hypocritical at best.

1: Yet you, VP, on several occasions have stated that it could have been exactly what I meant it as:
A trap for scum.
Now you claim it's hypocritical at best?!?
Inconsistency.

2: And there's one HUGE difference between me and Khan:

Khan has claimed. I have not.
Anyone asking Khan for role flavor info is scum hunting, via scum traps.

Anyone asking ME for role flavor is rolefishing, asking an unclaimed person about information their role has.

Me simply stating facts.
NOBODY has ever gotten away from an accusation on me without later regretting it.
-They'll face walls of text
-IF they get me lynched, they'll often be lynched the next day
-And other such various regrets.

More empty threats meant to divert attention away from him.

There is no threat in a FACT.
It's true. And always has been. Me, posting walls of text, happens the most often when I am under suspicion. Because it's more fun that way, and increases my odds of winning, regardless of alignment. (If I just hang back, am not suspected, basically, contribute next-to-nothing, and don't get any suspicion because of it...I'm not playing. I'm just moving along. This is detrimental to my town win condition, because I'll let the scum slip by. This is detrimental to a theoretical scum win condition, because I essentially let them massacre my buddies and avoid mislynches.)

And when I AM lynched, and DO flip town, then they will either
1: Ignore my posts. "He was Mastin. Let it drop."
or
2: Use my information. "XX was pushing VERY hard for Mastin's lynch, and he was a mislynch. Mastin was also bringing some solid points against XX. VOTE: XX."
If the latter is the case, then the scum (who pushed for my lynch) are screwed. They bought themselves a day, no more.

It's really that simple.

13) Hypocritically accuses rofl of tunnelling while letting Zazie off the hook as only having "a bit of confirmation bias".

The difference is, rofl isn't presenting a good, solid case on me. He's tunneling, without much of a solid reason. My RVS posts are me having fun, nothing more. Always have been, always will.

Zazie, however, has raised good, solid points against Khan, which I agree with.

The difference is clear.

Zazie has posted far more in this game and hasn't moved her vote at all.

And has, similarly, raised good points.

Rofl has voted for more than Mastin.

1: He voted for one other person, and did so only because he thought a lynch of me wasn't going to happen any time soon,

2: Zaz has also given suspicions on other players as well.

Again, Mastin is lobbing accusations at his detractors while giving those who agree with him a free pass.

There's no accusation in a fact: Rofl is known for tunneling, and he tunneled again this game.

Sure sign of scum trying to go with the flow and not draw unnecessary attention.

The thing is, I've always been this way. Look at the links I've given.

How many people who I have agreed with have I called town?
(Answer: Plenty. Not all, but plenty.)

How many people who I have seriously disagreed with have I called scum?
(Answer: Plenty. Not all, but plenty.)

You can look at any of my town-games for proof of this.

You are also ignoring the fact that I have disagreed with some people (SC, mainly), and called them town.

Again pointing out how his scummy behavior shouldn't apply.

The thing is...

If I have a Meta to support why my scummy actions are null tells...

Then,

in all likelihood, my supposedly scummy actions are truly

NULL tells

.

Can't make it more clear than that.

I point out that his point is bad.

I respond that I was pointing out the possibility of a scumslip, no matter how unlikely, because I am scum hunting, considering all options.

He admits that it is "doubtful".

Doubtful, but still possible. And as it is still a possible scumslip, it's still something which SHOULD be pointed out.

He tries to claim he is being thorough,

Leave no stone unturned.
Leave no potential scumslip unnoticed.
Same thing.

I'm being thorough. I'm looking at all options, and pointing out possibilities, no matter how remote, because it is SCUM HUNTING.

but this is completely illogical.

How is being thorough and pointing out a potential scumslip illogical?

If he was really trying to point out every possibility then he'd still be on about page three with his reading.

I fail to follow.
I am pointing out every possibility that I can think of (sadly, this is generally only two or three in most situations; I'm not going to be a Lelouch and pull 14 at once) in all posts. How would that slow ME down?

What is far more likely here is that he's throwing mud and seeing what sticks, a common scum move.

Mastin's Insane Tells

MafiaWiki it.

It shows some of my logic, VP. This is no different. I am pointing out possibilities, no matter how remote, in an effort to scum hunt. The tells may make very little sense or be a stretch, but this is how I play, because it is scum hunting.

This point is repeated about his other ridiculous scumslip he references here he tries to insinuate that Mufasa using the word "men" in his post is a scumslip:
[cut quote]
You need logic, descretion and a general reading ability. Throwing mud again.

I mentioned a possible scumslip. That is something that no player should NOT do. I was pointing out, no matter how remote the possibility, a possible scumslip. Scum hunting, without eliminating possible suspects.

I gave enough logic in that post to make it worthy of pointing out.
What more than that would I need?

I ask him why he didn't attack mufasa over an obviously scummy action, such as having only two posts. Mastin tries to justify this, while he thinks the "men" thing is a possible sign of scum. How much worse can your logic get?

The number of weak posters, posters who haven't contributed a great deal, speaks for itself.

There are plenty of 'em.
They can't all be scum, now, can they, VP?

The men thing, however, is something ONLY Mufasa had used. And it was something which was a potential scumslip. Hence, I point it out.

So, he is claiming that pointing out irrelevant and illogical things like that above is really scum hunting.

This is NOT an answer to the question,
"How is pointing out potential scumslips NOT scum hunting?"

A scumslip is a mistake, made by scum, which accidentally gives away information that only the scum would have, or is a comment that only scum would make, thereby revealing them as scum.
A potential scumslip is just the potential for the above to be true:
To catch scum.
So, I ask again:
How is it not scum hunting?
I see none of this supposed "irrelevant and illogical" reasoning.

This is my point about his giant walls.

What about them? My great walls of Text are what make me who I am. They symbolize how much fun I am having. The longer the post, the more fun I have had in writing it.
They have nothing to do with alignment.
Nothing to do with this argument.
They're, again, like a coin, VP. Pro-town and Anti-town are the two sides of the coin. But there's no pro-scum side to the coin.

People aren't really reading them for actual content

That's their problem. They can read the whole darn thing in less than half an hour. If they don't have that much time, they can just skim and get it done in five minutes.

Not reading my posts is their own darn fault, and not my problem. It's theirs.

and are letting a lot of garbage pass as actively scumhunting,

1: Perhaps, have you considered, the possibility that, well, I AM actively scum hunting, and that you thinking I am posting "garbage" is not the opinion of others?

2: Personal attack. Calling my posts, essentially, garbage is an attack against me, my style, and what makes me play the game of Mafia.

which it clearly is not when you look closely at it.

Actually, I'd say the opposite is true:
Those who don't look closely don't see the whole thing. I've been accused in previous games of posting almost nothing but fluff in long posts, from someone who was skimming them.

Yet when reading my posts closely, they'd realize that I HAVE been scum hunting.

Quantity =/= Quality

And I agree. Which is why I don't post a great number of one-liners. Instead, I take the time to write a huge post, full of quality, instead of a great number of posts, quantity.

Apart from justifying his rolefishing,

Baiting scum...

he is saying he won't point out whether he belives Khan 'got the answer right' or not and claims it would be anti-town to do so.

Well, duh. Saying if he got the answer right/wrong to a question about flavor would give scum the ability to fakeclaim that way/adjust their claims to make sure it passes.

Why is would it be anti-town you ask? Answer: it's not.

See above. It IS anti-town, because it gives the scum information that they might not have. Which is detrimental to the rest of the town.

I'll fill everyone in on what the real case is, Mastin doesn't have an answer because he was rolefishing.

I have a good case in notepad, typed up to prove how I was not. Again, I won't post it unless I see it fit to reveal the answer to whether Khan got it right or wrong.

There was no rolefishing, and I CAN prove it, with evidence that you can NOT refute. I just, as I said, believe it would be anti-town to give the scum information regarding roles that they might not have.

Furthermore, it became obvious that Khan did not have extra flavor just like the rest of the town, and Mastin does not want to acknowledge this because it would detract from trying to get a mislynch on Khan.

No. It would give scum information that they might not already have, which is anti-town.

Don't you think if Khan had actually gotten it "wrong" Mastin would have been all over it? He has certainly said that he isn't the type to let things he considers scummy to slide.

Who's to say that he didn't get it wrong?
I have been attacking him, as well as you for defending him over that point, have I not?

You're making dangerous assumptions, here, and are rolefishing for the answer.

Being succinct is not a scumtell. More mudslinging.

It's not a scumtell to make a summary.
It's a scumtell to QUOTE a summary, because a summary is NOT the whole argument.

I don't do summaries well. It makes it extremely easy for people to take the weakest part of my argument (the summary) and bash it full of holes. I've seen it happen before. (Ongoing, sadly.)

Yes, it is.

And I have, time and time again, shown how Emerald is NOT flavor.

I asked him what an Emerald does to affect a role and he couldn't answer me.

The thing is,

I

DID

answer you!

I gave DETAILED EXAMPLES of why it was NOT flavor, but was part of the role.

You just ignored that part of my posts, didn't you? Want me to quote it?

Emerald isn't flavor--

If I see people fail to state they're an "Emerald *role*" when they claim, they're scum. Look at the bodies we have--

Emerald Townie.
Emerald Jailkeeper.
Cerulean Doctor.

See the difference?

Emerald reflects role.
If people fail to state they're an "Emerald *role*", then they're scum, who forgot this little detail.

Khan did.
And then, later--AFTER having been called out for it--includes the Emerald part.

And I've even more recently described why it was not flavor further in my recent page 32 posts as well. (Although those were made after you typed this post up.)

The fact that he wants to argue over definitions such as what a role is and what flavor is when he is clearly mistaken shows he is overdefensive scum.

Option B:
I am aggressive town, who knows he is right on the matter.

Claims that because Khan didn't do something the way he would he is scum.

It's common sense:
If you have a role that could have ANY doubt about it,
YOU ASK THE MOD TO CLARIFY.

Cops should ask if they're sane.
Millers should ask what type of miller they are, details of flips, etc.
Lynchers should ask for the details of their win condition,

And so on.
That's Night Zero/Pre-game stuff.
NOT day one stuff.

This is a ridiculous justification for your argument.

The "your case is weak" argument again.

Also, I highly doubt Khan had any question about whether he was a miller or death miller until you guys had an aneurism over it.

Many roles have things that could be interpreted differently.
It's the job of a good player to ask the mod to clarify these issues early-on, as in, during night zero.
Khan had, what, three days to talk to the mod about his role?

He apparently didn't use them.

He clarified because you asked and then you claim he is scummy for clarifying for your benefit.

The thing is, his clarification contradicted with his earlier reasoning.

Also,
This is mostly Zaz's case.
Why no attack against her, but an attack against me?

You coaxed him into asking and then justified your forgone conclusion from that fact.

We asked him about the details of his role, scum hunting, and he failed to answer successfully.

That's entrapment. You know who does that: scum.

Scum aren't the only ones who lay traps.
See: Flavor.

More ridiculous assumptions and bending of facts to fit his viewpoint. Rofl hasn't defended Khan, he says. Orly?

THAT IS NOT WHAT I SAID!

The fact that Khan has only two active defenders (VP, Lowell.

Rofl did so earlier, but

hasn't truly defended Khan

other than for the fact that he claimed at exactly the right time and gave reasoning why the claim doesn't work as scum

) is more proof in my eyes that Khan's scum, and that his defenders are his scumbuddies.

VP is DELIBERATELY leaving out a VERY KEY PART of the Sentence to further his own case.

I said that rofl hadn't truly defended Khan, other than the post about how his claim would not be successful as scum.
Which is true--that's all rofl has done to defend him, reposting that same thing.

YOU, however, along with Lowell, have been actively defending Khan, against ALL attacks.

Ok, I think I've effectively proven my point.

You've proved one thing: You were leaving out a key statement.
Yes, rofl HAS defended Khan.
But not ACTIVELY.
Just that one post's reasoning, rehashed over and over again multiple times, essentially. A small, insignificant defense, which I actually partially agree with (read: We're not lynching him day one, but he needs to die).

YOU, however, are different. You're actively defending all of the case against him. You and Lowell are both Chainsaw Defending Khan a great deal.

*sidenote* looking at rofl in iso I see another incident here where he points out an early incident of Mastin rolefishing

You are forgetting a key fact, though:

Khan had done that

WELL before *I* had

, and yet nobody who brings this up points this out.
Why?
Because they don't want to see Khan as scummy, and want to see me as scummy.

Misrep. I never believed it to be a scumtell.

You agreed that he shouldn't have doubted his miller status. His doubting his miller status was part of the scum tell.
Hence, you agree with the scum tell.

Simple logic, really.

I said he shouldn't have doubted it just because you guys were being stubborn.

Again, you're saying he shouldn't have doubted it. Yet he did, and that doubt is the scum tell, so you should be agreeing with the scum tell in that post, essentially.

Doubt isn't a scumtell.

Oh, yes it is.
Doubt is like caution. It's something which scum show FAR more often than a pro-town player will.

Even if I actually believed this to be a scumtell (and I don't) why would that mean I have to vote him?

If he makes a scum tell, then he's more likely to be scum.
Why note vote for him?

It doesn't. Mastin is just trying to add weight to his argument by implying that I'm contradicting myself.

The thing is, you ARE.
A LOT.
You're showing a good deal of hypocrisy, misrepping me, leaving out key details of my posts...

Another free pass for Zaz, while he attacks other players for tunneling.

The thing is, Zaz brings up good, solid points against Khan.
Those others who are tunneling, not so much.

It's not that hard to see the difference. It's simple, really.

25)He answers every single point I make toward Zazier. What was the reason for this? I don't know.

1: Ignore the "R".

2: You didn't exactly provide a quote, so without the quote, I--myself--cannot answer.

---

Oh, man. This is so much fun.

Let's sum up this part (about half, right?) of VP's post. (If you quote the summary, even after my warnings to not do this, I'm going to steal the words of a Famous EpicMafia user:
Die in a fire.)

He
-Is being hypocritical. Misrepping me when accusing me of misrepping, along with leaving out key details of my posts in order to make his attacks stronger.
-Is defending Khan,
-Not attacking others for using the same reasoning that I am,
-Defending Lowell.

[Mastin]

Oh, man, VP. You're going to make me look bad in my other games; I'm just having far too much fun with you.

(I am like Kempachi--I love the thrill of battle, the thrill of a fight. You are giving me one of the best fights I've had in rather some time. An excuse for me to post walls of text.)

I mean, do I even really have to point out how much of a misrep of my position on the Khan situation.

Yes, you do.
Because I'm not really seeing it.
I see, a potentially huge scumslip: You admitting that Khan is very possible scum, yet are defending him heavily as not.

Because I try to be a reasonable person an mention the remote possibility that Khan could be scum, Mastin tries to twist my words into really saying that I DO think he is scum.

You said that he wasn't obvious scum.
And that implies to me that you think he could be very likely scum.

Which is a scumslip, considering how much you've defended Khan.

This is typical scum semantics arguments and misrep.

Or, you just truly having slipped, and me having called you out on it.

Says he can't provide suspicions on me because he'd have to do a PBPA,

Not SUSPICIONS--

SUMMARY OF SUSPICIONS.

THERE IS A

HUGE

DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO!

and yet he has been able to state his suspicions on many other players in this game without doing an entire PBPA.

Yea. Suspicions.
Not summary of suspicions.
You conveniently left out key words which completely changed the meaning, VP.

I've been noticing this a LOT coming from you. This is further proof that you are scum, because it simply isn't humanly possible to miss THAT many key phrases in my posts, that many crucial details left out.

Also, why can't he state general things (ie lurker, misreps often, OMGUS, etc.etc.) without doing a PBPA?

Because that's the same as a summary, and can be shot down just as easily.

The answer is that he doesn't have a strong case and would rather not going down the alley of making weak accusations.

I ASKED you if you wanted me to do that PBPA on you.

POSTS LATER, you

STILL have *not* answered this question

!

Just a simple yes, or no.
That's all I ask for.
Do you want me to do a PBPA on you and Johnny, or not?

Notice how he first tries to discredit this point as "old news".

Discredit? I was pointing out how rofl had said the exact same thing earlier.

What's wrong with that?
It's true.
What you said wasn't new. Rofl had said it earlier.

Then rather than answer my question he states why he thinks Khan is scum. It's a valid point and he can't refute it, so he deflects back to Khan.

Of course I can't refute it, because I believe it to be true. Khan needs to die. And I don't think it needs to be today. I stated why I think he's scum, which is an answer to the question, indirectly, in that I think he would not make it to lylo, but that he might do the move as scum, not knowing the consequences of the claim.

Not only that, but he then accepts that I am correct in the next quote:

Of course. Khan will die. It's as simple as that. I think he's scum, who will die, and that's what I had been explaining.

He accepts that he is likely to be killed at night, but says this proves why Khan is scum and we should waste a lynch on him.

Blatant twist of my words.

I didn't say he was likely to be killed at night. I said that, because of at least three killing factions, plus the lynch during the day, it was a tactical error.
NOWHERE did I say that we should lynch him.

29)He claims that the words JR used in his replacement request are scummy, which is utterly ridiculous WIFOM. How could anyone have any possible legitimate insight into this?

Let's look at a few of the scum replacements I've seen throughout my time...

Look at the Newbish Mastin and Laugh.

I was being fairly apologetic, swearing at how real life issues had consumed me, and that I couldn't play, regretting the choice, yet having to do it. (Note how I was also under pressure a good deal.)

Same deal here, with Ult wanting to be replaced, apologizing for no longer having the time to play. (Ult was under a good deal of pressure, mind you)

Apologizing. Real life issues, under pressure.

See the pattern in there?

More refusal to state any actual points against me. see above.

Not a refusal to state any points against you.
A refusal to SUMMARIZE the points against you.

They are NOT the same thing. I have been accusing you all game. I haven't provided a single good, solid summary this game.

Ridiculous inflation of self-importance.

No, just simple fact. It regards that pro-town/pro-scum difference in reactions when dealing with my play early-on in the RVS, amongst others.

Again trying to say that you if you don't agree with him and his method you are likely scum.

SC disagrees with me. I'm not labeling SC as scum, now, am I?

It's not agreeing/disagreeing with me.
It's the WAY they do it that's important.
There's a pro-town way.
And there's a pro-scum way.
You are the latter.

I can go into details at any time if I so wish to (I can state this tell of mine from memory.), but again, stating it would allow scumbags like you to change it if you don't understand the tell. Which, obviously, you don't.
Yay, for once, score one for the scum not doing their research!

Threats instead of scumhunting.

I was pointing out a simple fact, VP:

You were telling me to start focusing, stop the fluff, do more serious scum hunting.
I pointed out how, if I were to do that, YOU would be the target. That you were asking for your grave, essentially, and that it seemed scummy to me.

I've pointed this out already. He says referring to the "the town" is a scumtell, while referring to "the town".

Because to not do so when referring to your wording would change the meaning of the sentence. I've explained this already.

Also, how exactly does one not refer to the town in the third person?

The rest of the town-->Not third person.

It's a collective group, and is therefore always third person.

Only to those not part of it.
Those part of it will use first person.
We, the town,
The rest of the town,
etc.

Those not will use third person:
The town.

Misrep, mudslinging and generally bad logic all in one!

1: Explain how it is a misrep.

2: Explain how I was "mudslinging", because all I see is a legit tell which I have always used.

3: IF it were bad logic, as you claim, face it: You're talking to me. I have a wiki page on my tells (which needs updating, admittedly). Read over them and see if you think they're good, solid logical tells. I dare you to answer yes to all four currently up there.

Tries to frighten the town with my meta and because I got a Scummy nomination.

The fact that you're such a darn good player as scum makes you a danger, one who needs to have a very close eye kept on by the rest of the town, if not a vote for all the scummy things I've pointed out coming from you.

Bringing this up isn't even valid as a point against me because he claims that I always look pro-town.

It IS a point against you, because it shows why you're a dangerous player.

It's all psychological games that just happen to work in his favor.

It's me just stating a simple fact.

35)He asks for links to my town games. I tell him they are readily available in my wiki. His reply?

Yea. You failed to give the links, pointing towards your wiki. I find it to be a slight scum tell to not do the work yourself and just post the links.

So, what?

So I'm scummy because I directed you to the exact place where you can find all of my town games rather than choosing which ones reflect best on me and posting them in the thread. This is the height of idiocy.

If you gave all of the town links, then a quick look at your wiki would confirm you gave all of your town links. That's why it's pro-town to post them. Because it can verify your honesty and effort.

Again we have an incident where Mastin is calling someone scummy because they didn't do something the way he would.

Checking the last page when you have many others to catch up on is scummy.

It shows worry at the current state of the game:
A pro-town player shouldn't be worried about being the leading bandwagon, for example. You made it a point to point this out, and showed you had read the last page. Which is scummy, because it shows fear of being the top-wagon.

Not only is this not a scumtell in any, way, shape or form, but it is an illogical point coming from a player who claims to be so "unique" and does things differently from everybody else.

I'm a unique player in many ways, but that doesn't change the fact that I do SOME things the "normal logical" way.
This is amongst them.

Give him an inch and he takes a mile.

Nice metaphor.
(This didn't seem like an accusation to me.)

I try to cut him some slack and say that some , which does not necessarily mean many, of his points are good and he tries to turn this to say that I'm claiming scum.

When MOST of my points are directed at you, even SOME would be admitting at least SOME of my points against you are legit, as in, you're admitting to being scum.

Simple logic, really.

The heigh of idiocy continues to rise.

I should check how many times you've used this word in this post and point out the times where I forgot to, how this is a personal attack against me. Too lazy, but I'll say this:
Every time you continue to call me an idiot, it's a personal attack against me.

Additionally, as I already pointed out, he is saying that most of his scumhunting has been on me, which is completely not true considering I replaced 25 pages into this game.

It was on your predecessor, and by extent, you. Later on, it was mostly you as well.

Hence, most of the scum hunting from me has been on you, VP.

Simple, basic, elementary logic, really.

You don't have to be a genius to figure out why this is a lie.

And you don't have to be a genius to figure out why you're ignoring the fact that you just didn't come into the game with a completely new role--you inherited the role of another player, one who I had been attacking a great deal recently.

Admits to, and then excuses his fluff. Then threatens me.

1: So, what? Fluff's fluff. I admit that. It's not like it's a scum tell to have the level of fluff I do.

2: I did NOT threaten you. I was making an ACCUSATION against you, that you were "afraid to see my scum hunting", essentially. That you were afraid to see my efforts to catch scum, in my attacks against Johnny, your predecessor, and later, you.

More threats, very little scumhunting.

No threats, more accusations against you.
I was stating that, because my primary suspect was you, an increase in scum hunting would further nail you as scum.
And I was saying that you wanting me to scum hunt more was a possible scum slip.
("Really, VP, you're making it sound like you WANT me to attack you harder"-->You are making it sound like you are scum, further.)

This basically sums it up.

No, it does not.

Rather than actually respond to what I'm saying or have a logical discussion he acts bullheaded about it.

The thing is,

I HAVE RESPONDED TO THIS POINT COUNTLESS TIMES.
I can't count the hundreds of times that I've explained to people in dozens of games why long posts can be incredibly pro-town to do. I should track them down, because I've said it in almost all of my games. I'm tired of saying it all the time, explaining why my style has a pro-town side no matter how much you want to make it anti-town to pro-scum.

This isn't necessarily scummy in and of itself, but continuing to spam the thread when asked many times to stop and given reasons why should stop, is definitely scummy.

1: I wasn't spamming the thread.

2: You said I was spamming. Not why I should stop spamming.

Fails to answer my question other than stating he's right and I'm wrong.

Your question was how your reactions were not pro-town.

That was just ASKING me how to CHANGE your reactions so that they COULD be pro-town. Or perhaps your buddies if not you. I can cite the reasoning from memory. Always have, and always will, in fact. Just not now, because you could easily change it if I told you, making the action of telling you to be anti-town.

Or there were no other points and you're stretching to make your arguments seem more valid than they really are.

Explain to me how "And so on"-->An attempt to make the argument more valid.

'Cause I really fail to see how.

Repetition of question I already answered, which he even replies to in post 708. ie, actively lurking and not really scumhunting.

1: I was asking again, because I had shot down your points about the difference, and was asking again, how--without the points I shot down--we are different, aside from her posts being shorter and mine longer.

2: Are you accusing me of actively lurking?

3: And not scum hunting?

4: Because this would contradict with your assertion that some of my scum hunting has been legit.

43) repeats a shitload of points he already made to pad out his posts.

If I don't get my point across,
I state my point again until the message gets across.

Simple as that, really.
If people ignore what I say...
Then I have no choice but to say it again in order to make the message clear. Make a larger font, whatever. Something has to be done to get the message across.

Also, repeating yourself is pro-town, because if in your repetitions, there are no inconsistencies, you are showing consistency, which is pro-town.

repeating things also helps to psychologically reinforce them in the minds of other players as being true.

Thing is, if they don't pay attention, then I'm not reinforcing anything. I'm trying to just convey the message across to them for the first time.

Again, the world has to revolve around Mastin.

This was not relevant to the quote you gave at all.

I give a valid reason why he should trim his posts down (it makes it hard to review the game later) and his response is 'not my problem'.

I also gave reasons why it would be possible to read my posts. (See: Do it the old fashioned way, don't do Iso, Iso-reads on any player are near-impossible in later days, etc.) And explained why it would be their fault for not looking at my posts, because I make it extremely easy to follow along and also make my opinions rather clear throughout the days.

This is jibberish.

Not really. Longer posts give me the freedom to do whatever the heck I want.
Where's the gibberish in a fact?

I'm going to stop here.

If you wanted a truly valid case, you shouldn't.

These are 45 things I see wrong with Mastin

Wrong?
Perhaps to a normal player.
Scummy?
Possible.

But do you see it as 45 things that make me supposedly scum?
Doesn't sound like it from your wording.

and this only in his last two posts.

Yea, well, I could say the same about you. Your posts have been FILLED with scum tells for me to point out, and I've done exactly that.

Some of the points are repetitions on similar themes in his play,

Which automatically should make it clear that they're null tells.

but it's all scummy behavior.

It's mostly a load of null tells and a load of BS.

I really don't see how anyone could possibly be seeing him as pro-town.

You really haven't read up on my meta, have you, VP?
I mean, my true games.
Not like that joke of an ongoing game.

If anyone needs further elaboration, I'll continue, but for crying out loud just look at how many scummy actions he is trying to get by with.

1: Please do.

2: I just shot down these supposedly scummy actions.

3: You're one to talk--there are loads of scum tells from you, in that post ALONE.

Points I think are irrelevent due to Mastin's meta:
7, 10, 14, 15, 17, 19, 35, 36, 39, 43, 44

Points I think are active misreps/scummy themselves:
8 - Even if no-one else had accused you of being scum, it still doesn't make his argument invalid, and in fact plenty of people have done so via their votes.
13 - You accuse Mastin of going with the flow and not drawing unnecessary attention? Sorry, what? His tunneling is a minor mistake that could be indicative of scummyness, your accusation reeks of a misrep.
26 - I agree with Mastin. Your post made it look very much like you thought KK was scum but had some doubts. It looked like fence sitting, certianly not like you believe the miller claim and are against a KK lynch.

Heh. I don't even need to check the actual points to know that SC is speaking the truth on this matter.

Mastin's complete disregard for everyone's preferred method of reading the game is irritating, and his posts spam the forum, make it hard to catch up and hard to play.

Only if you try to read it line by line. There are ways to trim it down a bit. Ignore whatever I'm quoting, skim and read areas that catch your interest, etc. It's not the best solution, but it is the easiest pro-town solution there is. (The best solution and hardest pro-town solution being to read the whole thing.)

However, although it might be annoying, or even if it creates favourable conditions for scum, that DOES NOT make him scum THIS game.

Agreed. Like I said, most of my actions are null tells. The actions might appear anti-town; it doesn't change how they're null tells and I'd do them regardless of alignment.

He posts these long posts every game and has an arm's length of games to prove it.

Well...not EVERY game. VP's meta of me comes from an ongoing game where I did not, actually, have long posts. It was because I was bored. *shrugs*

This includes things like failure to summarise, being pedantic, having illogical scumtells and various other issues.

This stuff, I do every game, although I word it in different, more positive ways.

b) The sheer amount of his postings mean that there are always going to be things that come off poorly. He may occasionally make a bad argument or attack, but these weak slips are much less significant than with players who post less because of the possibility of noise over signal. If I post 100 words in my game and have 3 weak scumtells, that's significant. If I post 100,000 and have 3 weak scumtells, that's insignificant.

c) Mastin is scumhunting. Whether you feel he's concentrating on the right people or not, he's actively combing through the thread looking for scummy behaviour. He has made points about a number of different people and is clear about where his opinions lie. He is certainly not going with the easy wagons and trying to fly under the radar, like you say at one point, he's put himself and his theories at the forefront of discussion. These are people you do not lynch on D1, imo.

Yea. Not going to unnecessarily reply to these individually, because I agree with both of these paragraphs entirely.
Face it, VP.
I've NEVER lived to the endgame of a game.
I've made it to lylo once,
But never an endgame.

d) There are REALLY REALLY scummy alternatives.

I agree, that many individuals do look rather scummy, however, VP's, followed by Khan's, and at third comes Lowell's scumminess seems to be the greatest of them to me. Which is why VP has my vote.

Part of why I suspect OMGUS/personal reasons for your recent case against Mastin is that you dropped that case like it was hot.

Yea. He is OMGUS'ing me. He just doesn't want to admit it.

---

FINALLY finished Page 30. I think I've proved well and good that VP is lying through his teeth in an effort to get me lynched. This has been fun; will the fun continue on page 31?

---
Blasted internet failures. I tried posting this, but my internet failed. <_<

Oh, well. It can always wait until my internet works again. Anyway, copied this into Microsoft Word and saving it for tomorrow. You’d be interested to know that the actual post was exactly nine pages long. The hr took up the last lines there; the wrap-up started page ten.

That’s a true post from me. My definition of fun.

[Mastin]

I simply can't imagine a claimed miller reaching lylo. He painted a big target on his back and I'm happy to let it be sorted out at night. Wasting a lynch on someone who is a dead man walking is a bad idea when we have scum to catch. If he'd claimed at L-1 it might be different, or claimed in D2 it might be different. As it is, it's the correct play to make for a mason, so I don't see a need to further push it.

You made a bad typo, SC: Khan isn't a mason.
More seriously, I agree with this. If he is a miller, he claimed at the correct time. And I don't want him to be lynched today.

I DO, however, want him dead.

Eh... I'm not too sure about this point, because if we already knew that Khan was a miller, than what's the problem with asking for some flavor?

My thoughts on the matter exactly. There's no problem with asking someone who already claimed for more favor to test their claim.

Does Mastin usually do this?

Insist my actions are always pro-town?
Yea. They're also anti-town as well. (See: Coin.)

Insist that they're a sign of alignment? If you consider insisting they're null tells to qualify, then, yes, I do do this all the time.

Pressure. He wanted answers; with Johnny gone, none could be given. It's a common tactic. Pressure votes. Quite personally, I hate 'em with a passion, but they're neither a scum tell nor a town tell.

I would like Mastin to explain himself;

Unvote
Vote: Mastin

...Like that.
Not a sign of alignment, but a true pain.
Happy, Wicked? I have explained myself rather well and proven why VP is lying, manipulative scum.

I feel certain enough to lynch him, and that is all that really matters.

Answer the darn question:
How certain are you that I am scum, VP?
None of this "certain enough to lynch" junk. A percent will do. I gave you the percentage when you asked me to about how certain I was about my theory.
Will you return the favor?

but he also has genuinely scummy behavior that I think people are ignoring because "he's Mastin".

And I shot down every one of your 45 points last night that said I was scummy.
You didn't even use the word, "scum".
You used "scummy".

That does NOT sound like a pro-town player's view on another.

Keep in mind that not everything in my post above was intended to be "scumtells" per se, but rather to show the bad logic and general uselessness that is going on in his posts.

If they're not scum tells, then you don't mention them in a case against me to make me look as scummy as possible.

Things like attacking Mufasa over saying the word "men" is not actually scumhunting, yet he is trying to pass it off as such.

I've asked, dozens of times. And have not once received an answer:

Explain to me how pointing out a possible scumslip is

NOT

scumhunting, VP!

This is one of my main issues.

One of my main issues with you is you continually pushing only part of the story. Down-right manipulating my words, ignoring sentences, twisting my sentences to have different meanings, etc.

And your main issue is me pushing bad logic, when I use this kind of logic in every one of my games.

Yea...of the two main issues, I definitely think mine is stronger than yours.

The problem, for me, is that his scum hunting is not genuine. He's trying to make mountains out of molehills or less. These are things scum do.

Not me, VP.
My scum hunting is ALWAYS legitimate. Regardless of alignment, I'd always scum hunt. Look at this game, VP. We can be almost dead-certain there are two scum factions; EVEN IF I WERE SCUM, I would still be scum hunting the other faction.

My logic is mine, and I am free to use it however I wish. My MITs are a good example of what logic I use, often. Heck, you can see that I FoS'd Zazie and Kise for being replacements during night zero in this game alone. (Sure, that was the RVS, but still, that's the kind of logic that I have--in the past--used seriously. That particular tell is more of a joke than serious now, but I still use it every game I can.)

I have seen Achilles and I agree that he is very scummy.

And I have seen Achilles post what seemed to be very good points in at least one of his posts, so, well, I disagree.

I'm pretty sure he was on my stated list of people who "need to catch a case of dead".

Quote, please. I do not recall hearing you say this.

And I do think the case on MafiaMann is quite convincing, but I think the one against Mastin is just as convincing. I pointed out 45 things I saw wrong in only two posts from him, and I didn't even finish reading them because I was tried of typing that post.

The thing is, you dropped the Mafia case, which was strong and had good reasoning...and went after me, with far weaker reasoning, twisting of my words, leaving out key phrases, general manipulation, and blatant hypocrisy on several matters.
And I just blew all 45 points of yours full of holes, anyway. Provided clear reasoning to prove you wrong, supported it with my meta, and showed you just how wrong you are about me, VP.

His pursuit of the KK lynch does not seem genuine like it does with Zazie, and his pursuit of my lynch reeks of OMGUS.

What I read: He sees my attacks as not legit, but sees Zazie's attacks as legit, meaning that she's genuinely scum hunting, which by extent leads to Zazie being right about Khan, which by extent means that VP has slipped again and admitted that Khan's scum.
Yay for scumslips!

And, yea...I have shown why my attacks against VP are not OMGUS. He had my vote before he replaced in. I thought Johnny was scum, and gave reasoning why. I disliked VP's first content post; it was mostly personally attacking me for my normal playstyle. His posts from then-on became increasingly scummy, and eventually, he ended up--when he realized I would not stop--having no choice but to OMGUS me.

For some reason, I severely doubt it.

And I do not deny your reasoning, rofl.

Khan isn't the best lynch today.
He IS very likely scum (at least 75% likelihood), but he won't be the lynch today, because practically the only worse course of action would be to lynch a claimed cop day one.

Mastin is accusing people for terrible reasons, so apart from the spam, part of the rest is just crap. He's also pointing out terrible contradictions.

Except, I have explained my actions.
My accusations are scum hunting.
It doesn't matter how weak, or how unusual, the reasoning is:

It. Is. Still. Scum-hunting.
No matter how much you want to bash it as not. It's pointing out possible scum-slips.

Are you saying that since he posts so much, then he is likely to say something scummy once in a while?

Who doesn't?
SC was saying that the amount of scummy stuff I have said, in comparison to the total amount of what I have said, is insignificant, essentially.

Meaning that there would be far better lynches. (Like VP.)

If there really is more than one scum group and Mastin is a part of one of them, then who cares if he is scumhunting or not, because he could be trying to get rid of the other scum group.

The fact is, Wicked, that scum hunting is scum hunting, no matter what way you look at it.
I have been scum hunting ever since we left the RVS. And done it well, nailed VP, nailed Khan, nailed Lowell, as scum together, with possible scum as well, likely belonging to the other faction (Mafia, FA, those who I point out possible scumslips from, etc. mostly qualify under this category).

Remember me pointing out possible slips from this player?
Yea, it's votes such as these that make them slightly more likely to be true.

However, having been in the game for a short while, you are making yourself guilty of misrepping just as you accused him of doing(see post 749 before you deny it).

Which is, blatantly hypocritical, of course. He also twisted my words, and left out key phrases in my sentences to strengthen his case against me, where if he had left those words in, he would have had a far weaker attack against me.

More over, your appeal to other players dislike of mastin's post style is a incredibly suspicious play.

And is doing the same strong-armed tactics he accuses me of as well.
("Voting Mastin is pro-town.")

You are using it to further your desire to get him lynched because your case is not as strong as you would like. I would vote for you before I vote for Mastin, however I'm leaving my vote on KK because I believe my logic is solid.

And for reasoning such as this, good, solid, and pro-town,
Nat's pro-town. He hits the mark with his points, there, because they're all true.

That is already four people responding to VP's push on Mastin.

Yea. And like I said, we have two scum factions.
VP, Khan, and Lowell all seem to fit rather nicely as one.
The others on my lynch (Mafia, Mufasa. Wicked's vote was for pressure, so if he unvotes after hearing my counter-argument, then he's excused.) seem to fit nicely as the other.

Three of which did not post any reasons,(MM kinda did but seemed to imply he was voting for his post style).

Aye. And why do you think they have my suspicion?
(Hint: Because their votes seem to reek of bandwagoning.)

If anyone is trying to take advantage of sheep it is VP.

And I agree. The proof is in the bandwagon, without waiting for my counter-argument.

Anyone who could read VP's case against me can read my counter-attack as well.

@Mastin: Re: French
I speak French. I can verify that the French abbreviate "Monsieur" (pronounced "Messieu") as M. Link

Okay, point dropped, then.

1: *facepalm* No True Scotsman fallacy.

No True Scotsman--a fallacy involving the fact that no player who is XX (fill in XX with role, status [like IC], or alignment).

What I said: Rolefishing applies, even to third-party roles.

The two are not the same, Khan, and I don't see how you can think that what I said was a No True Scotsman fallacy.

2: I said I was a miller. You guys were the ones fishing for more information and blew every perceived inconsistency out of proportion.

I've explained this in detail already responding to VP.
See the contradiction between knowing your role, and having confusion over it.

3: C'mon! Be vaguer! You can do it! Say I smell like scum! Invoke gut!

Khan, I've explained your inconsistencies throughout the thread. I don't need to do it again every post.
Do you WANT me to repeat myself every post?
ME to repeat MY points, in MY posts?
Answer: No. That'd make my posts unnecessarily long.

I'm willing to do a PBPA against you, if you so wish me to, but not a summary of the points.

It's the same deal with VP.

Ask me to do a PBPA, I'll do it.
Ask me to summarize the points against you, I'll ask you if you want a PBPA and explain why I refuse to give a summary.

4: Don't answer for ckool5000. I have a right to know who is talking shit about me.

Well, if you think about it, 742 shows a very clear difference between you pre-claim and post-claim. It is very likely talking about not freaking out after having people have confirmed guilties on them.

5: There's a major problem with your comparison, Mastin. It's entirely possible for there to be both MAFIA ROLEBLOCKERS and TOWN ROLEBLOCKERS. That's a distinction that DOESN'T EXIST with the role of Miller (Note: you've already admitted this).

The thing is, Khan, I've explained this in great detail:

Mafia don't have to claim to be the town equivalent of what their actual role is. They can claim to be a miller when they are, in fact, a goon, for example.
(See: my latest proof of why Emerald is not flavor.)

6: No smiley face. Is this comment serious? Do you really think SKs work that way?

Well, yea. Serial killers aren't members of the mafia; I always like to think of them as immune to cop investigations.
So?

7: Like what?

Already outlined.

8: That is some pretty insulting WIFOM reasoning. Also, see #5. Miller isn't a role that has multiple possible alignments. Miller only has ONE potential alignment. Quit relying on different roles (with different rules) to make your point.

1: No wifom. Just psychology.

2: I've explained this, MANY TIMES, Khan. There IS such a thing as fakeclaiming, claiming a role that you are not. Claiming to be a Miller as a Goon, for example, would be no different than claiming to be a Doctor as a M. Roleblocker in Newbie Games.

The examples I was giving were just that--examples. I showed you a M. Roleblocker claiming to be a roleblocker (possible, very probable, actually),

And also gave an example of another member of the Mafia (in my most recent example, I said Goon, for the sake of speculation), who claims Miller, but makes the exact same mistake as the M. Roleblocker.

It's not that hard to understand, Khan.

9: Sure, why not. Nothing says "Pro-Town" like massive uncorroborated self-metaing circular arguments that are steeped heavily in forced denial.

And we have another one.
VP was pushing this same argument:

Saying that I was saying Pro-Town.

When, in fact, I was saying Null.

You're like the Baghdad Bob of this game. "The scumminess of my play has been vastly overreported! Kublai Khan will be surrendering to my mighty arguments any moment now!"

Made me laugh, although the accusation is false. (I'm stating nothing but fact. Anyone who is arguing with me on points such as my meta are being illogical and unreasonable, because I've given clear examples to support my supposedly scummy play as being my playstyle, a null tell.)

10: Gosh, It's totally inconceivable for a player to commit scum-tells intentionally in other games as town so that they can play more unnoticed as scum.

This is an accusation of me Pseudo-Metagaming, Khan.

Really...do you think I was setting myself up in those games to play scummily, just so that I could eventually do the same thing as scum to get away with it?


Occam's Razor (or however that's spelled), Khan.
Simplest explanation applies.
The simplest explanation to my actions is that they are null, like I claim.

11: Threatening the town. With the very same post style you claim is benign.

There is no threat in a fact.

How many times must I state this for the message to get across?
Want it in size fifteen/seventeen to get the message?

Really. My actions are null tells.

Second, how do you figure that Mastin's repeated insistence of how pro-town (or null) he is not to be a scum-tell?

Because I'm insisting on facts. I even GIVE links to SUPPORT my arguments and describe that.

You, however, are insisting on false arguments, which have no foundation in fact, are speculation, and mindlessly attacking my playstyle.

@VP Baltar (746): Wow. You just made my rebuttal seem paltry in comparison.

Yea. He also used a bunch of hypocritical logic, misrepped me, twisted my words, and ignored key parts of my posts. (Like ASKING him if he wanted a PBPA for the accusations. He flat-out said that I was refusing to give a summary, which isn't true--I was giving him reasons for not posting a summary, and that I'd give the better choice: A PBPA, if he so requested it.)

You mean the fact that he claimed Emerald miller and then some players badgered him into asking the mod for more specifics?

Miller, and then--after I called him out for it--Emerald Miller, actually.

However, my argument is that no one outside of Mastin has found ME scummy but has rather carried over suspicions from JR.

You share the same role as JR.
Suspicions from JR are suspicions on you, VP, so, yes. People HAVE suspected you.

Furthermore, I say that Mastin is making "empty threats" of long posts against me, which is true.

There is no threat in a fact.

He cannot sum up a case against, or at least has yet to do so for how much he has been talking about it.

Again, VP, do I have to say it a million times?

I refused to do a summary because a summary

does not convey the whole case

, and instead,

I ASKED you if you wanted my alternative, a PBPA!

Can't make it clearer than that.
Just answer the darn question, one which I have had for quite some time:
Do you, or do you not, want me to do a PBPA?
Because that's the only way that I will post all of my accusations against someone.

I mean, I was only analyzing 2 posts out of everything he has said in this game and came up with that much stuff.

Yea, VP. And I analyzed your one post and found an equally abundant number of problems with that post alone.
Whatever you can dish out, I can defend against double. (Literally. Proof of falsehood in the accusation, Meta of doing it before.)
Yet you can't defend against the accusations I dish out, because mine are legit, your are not.

How much scummy behavior would it really take before you lynch somebody?

I can say the same about you, VP.

I realize I'm coming on very strong with this case, but I feel that this is the only way people are going to listen.

And I am coming on equally strong with my defense, if not superior to you. But, because people have declared themselves ignoring/skimming my posts, I apparently have to work much harder to be heard (hence the large font size parts of my posts. Anyone who claims to miss those is flat-out lying.), despite you having equally long posts to my own.

Look at how often Mastin has said something along the lines of 'That was a good post Zazie!'

Well, duh. Zazie's owning Khan in her arguments.

'Nuff said.

and also how much he has harped on the miller/death miller thing, which Zazie first brought up.

Death millers are the standard on EM. I pointed this out and asked Khan about it.

---
And, although I haven't checked, keep in mind I read by a page-by-page analysis. What I quote is the last thing I have read, in most cases. I don't remember off the top of my head, but it is very possible that I hadn't read Zaz's post when bringing up the point about the death miller. (Will have to check, though, as it is possible that Zaz brought it up and that's what caused me to post about it. I don't remember off the top of my head.)

More apologies for long posts. Hoping this comes to an end soon.

Not as long as I live, VP. Long posts are fun. I'm having the most fun I've had since the last time this happened. (Sadly, got lynched there, flipped town. It was fun, though.)

Meta. Same as Empking's utter non-participation. It might be irritating or anti-town, but it doesn't make them more or less likely to be scum.

SC shows good, solid reasoning in his posts. Anyone calling SC scum is very likely scum themselves.

If I didn't, I meant to greet ya.

Nah, Zaz. People can blame me, not you, this time.

---

And I was right. Page 31 has been loads of fun.

On to page 32. And as there's a 33, I'm sure there are some responses to my posts; it'll be interesting to see people's reactions to VP's load of BS on me.

[Mastin]

Looking forward to it.

Not like it's a problem.

Really, look at my posts, referring to my previous posts.
How many of those times do you think I actually went back and looked at the original post? Most of the time, just looking at the quote provided will be more than enough to jog my memory.

(Whether my memory is correct or not, eh, that's a different matter.)

So? It's not a scum tell.
Buddying up to SC, perhaps?

Mastin (7) - Kublai Khan, VP Baltar, roflcopter, MafiaMann, Wickedestjr, Mufasa, Lowell

Okay, this is a joke. A seriously bad joke. Khan, understandable; he's scum. Same with VP. Rofl's rofl. Mafia's likely scum, as is Mufasa, and Lowell's with VP and Khan. Wicked shouldn't be on there, as I have plenty of pressure on me already,
But...

Still, that bandwagon's size is alarming.
I can guarantee you that it's mostly scum driven.

this read is unbearable..

Look, curious. I've given the tips on how to get through my posts several times, now. Just use them.

Mastin is spouting too much...

And yet, you don't accuse VP, for equally long posts...

I hate the term "wall of text" but I can see this as a pro town move on his part

Both pro-town and anti-town, actually. It's a coin.
My actions are like a coin. There's a pro-town (INTENTIONS), and an anti-town side.

But in that coin, there is no pro-scum actions or pro-town (ALIGNMENT) actions.

not finishing the read, I would vote him...

Hypocrisy. You just said you saw the pro-town side of the argument.

.but I dont know what has been said the last 5 pages or so...my brain is fucking hurting..

What's been said, in the last five pages, is how to survive my posts, and why VP/Khan are scum.

Oh, fucking hell. I'm so close to throwing in the towel and asking for replacement because of Mastin's posts.

Throwing in the towel-->Giving up-->Admitting you're scum.
Scumslip.

The parsing of every sentence clause was bad, the endless repetition of the same points over and over within the same post is worse, but now the super-condescending LARGE TEXT he's added is beyond asinine.

Perhaps you ignored my explanation, Khan.

My point obviously isn't getting across to many people.
If they claim to not notice the large text, chances are, they're lying. The large text is meant to draw their attention, to make my points clear and impossible to miss.

If someone misses this point again, then I'll have to state it again in large-sized text as well, to get the message across.

It feels like his ego is so big he thinks he has to talk louder and slower for the rest of us simpletons to understand his massive genius.

Duh. I've nailed the scum already. And people aren't listening. So, yes, I am going to talk louder (read: large sized font, bolds, italicized, underlined, caps lock) to get the point across.

What's the problem with that?

He is literally sucking the fun out of this game and making it a chore.

Only for those who are attacking/voting me.

Once a person attacks me, and attacks me hard, there's no going back on it. They look bad for continuing. They look worse for stopping. I push for their lynch, even when they stop pushing for mine, so they have no choice but to push my lynch as scum, because if they don't, instead of getting lynched the next day, they get lynched THAT day.

Heh. My bad. I should've mentioned the fact, like I had earlier, that scum are the ONLY ones who attack me that hard, most of the time.
---
Also, Khan...
Most of your points seem to be defending yourself/attacking me.

Can you give your opinions on other matters? I can't recall any off the top of my head.

The above paragraph doesn't describe scum-hunting..

Yea. It does, Khan. Those who attack me and attack me HARD are almost always scum. Because, through my meta arguments, and my defenses, only scum would still be pushing for my lynch.

it describes a strategy of OMGUS.

Not really. I'm attacking the scum in this game. SC has disagreed with me yet I think of SC as town, and I think rofl (who has voted me all game) is town, so if your logic was true, I'd be OMGUS'ing them.
I'm not.

A) Admitting that he doesn't really care about alignments, he is all about personal vendettas and trying to get people lynched for the sole 'crime' of suspecting him.

Not true, Khan.

Those who attack me are scum.
So, yea, I care about alignments. Specifically, that they're scum attacking me, and I am nailing them for it.
I never said what you think I did. Twisting my words.

B) Admits that he will make-up scum-tells as part of his "ends justify the means" mentality.

Blatant twist of my words, again.

I make no scum-tells up. My scum-tells are possible scum-tells from players, who I think slipped and are that much more likely to be scum.

C) Bullying townies by threatening to eat away at their free time by forcing them to either respond to huge amounts of trumped-up charges or else look bad and get lynched.

No. I offered them CLEAR INSTRUCTIONS on how to read my posts, and explained how IT DOESN'T TAKE THAT LONG.

D) Presenting himself and his playstyle as exclusively pro-town.

This is the opposite of the truth, Khan.
I've been presenting my playstyle as a coin. Both pro-town AND ANTI-TOWN AS WELL.

I've been presenting myself, from my actions, as a NULL TELL. Because I'd do this regardless of alignment.

There is no null version of this type of strategy, so he presents his tactics as working well against scum, but doesn't include the fallout of what happens when a townie attacks him.

The thing is...
PRO-TOWN PLAYERS LISTEN TO MY LOGIC AND DO NOT ATTACK ME that often. I present my meta defense. I present my in-game defense. NOBODY BUT SCUM OR HEAVILY TUNNELING TOWN (*coughsroflcough*) WILL ATTACK ME AFTER THAT.

If the person he is revenge-attacking is town and backs off, then he will continue to push for a town-lynch.

No. Pro-town players will have backed off well before the point of no return that I lay out. The point of no return is where backing off looks worse than staying on.
Pro-town players, when listening to my in-game and meta explanations, will back down.
Scum will almost certainly not.
Which is why you and VP, amongst others, with Lowell at a close third, are scum.

If the person he is revenge-attacking is town and doesn't back off, then he will do whatever he can to smear the person to that they get lynched the next day.

The thing is, pro-town players will not attack me in the ways that you and VP have.

It IS my fault for failing to specify the fact that only scum would attack me that hard in that quote. I had done it in previous examples, but forgot to do it this time.

Bottom line is that anybody can smear anyone else. But Mastin's game of "I'm going to smear anyone that attacks me and take them down with me" isn't scum-hunting, it's scummy OMGUS. It's unforgivable anti-town behavior.

The thing is,

-I've scum hunted.
-I've logically explained my actions in-game.
-I've provided my town meta to support my actions.
-And ANY good pro-town player would back off after that. That's the last point of return. Me presenting my meta defense along with in-game explanations. If they attack me heavily after that, they're scum.

It's really that simple, Khan.

I'm not normally a policy lynch kinda guy... But what exactly is the point of keeping Mastin around?

Scum hunting.
THAT is what.
Only scum will push for my lynch HARD after I've given my good, solid, logical defenses.

He's basically insisting that all he wants to do is piss people off so that he can go toe-to-toe with and try to get them lynched by hook or by crook.

Kinda. Replace 'people' with 'scum', and you've got the right idea, Khan.

There's no conceivable way that his strategy would exclusively target scum.

Yes.
There is.

It's the simplest logic there is from me:

After giving a good, solid defense, covering all possible angles, any STILL attacking me heavily ARE scum. You and VP BOTH fall under this category like no others in this game.

If Mastin isn't scum, then he's a troll.

And a seriously personal attack can be added to the charges against Khan.

---

Caught up to my last post last night. Oh, this is so much fun.

-Khan's still scum,
-VP's still scum,
-The bandwagon on me is a joke.

[Mastin]

Oh, and I'm at L-2, by the way.

I am an Emerald Roleblocker. I blocked Kublai Khan Night Zero

, because he said he'd kill me if he got a killing role in the pre-game. Best random choice I could think of.

I've breadcrumbed this throughout the whole day ("I'm a roleblocker. I blocked XX because he said he'd kill me if he got a killing role"-->Dead giveaway.)

I SERIOUSLY suspect VP picked up on this after my two posts, and got afraid of it.

I'm thinking that we have four kills--

A vig, a serial killer, and two mafia factions. With one of their kills failing last night. Specifically, I think Khan submitted the kill, and when he failed, he panicked and claimed miller.

THAT is one of my main reasons for suspecting Khan, above all else.

[Mastin]

In other words, you think the people voting for Mastin are doing it mostly because his posts are annoying? Possibly, but what's wrong with the points against him that have already been provided?

The fact that I defended against them well, and yet, despite the large text and my best efforts, I STILL have been ignored.

Why not? "Because I don't feel like it" is not a good reason. You could be scum just voting Mastin for the heck of it. Why shouldn't we think that?

In Lowell's defense (*le gaspeth!* Mastin is defending one of his suspects! I'm not a tunneler, despite the claims against me of such. If there is an explanation which I feel is more likely, and yet, makes my suspects look slightly less scummy, I will still point it out.),
He had expressed his willingness to vote for me earlier.

You won't get a chance if I hang around L-2 for too long. Too easy to become L-1, and a lynch after that.

Mastin stating that I'm OMGUSing because he was voting for JR is quite a load.

The thing is, VP...
I was voting for Johnny.
Then you came in.
I continued attacking you, like I had Johnny.
You asked me to stop, essentially.
I didn't. I attacked you more.
(There might be some repetitions of the above for a while before the below happens. Still the same idea, though.)

And then, when it was clear I wasn't backing down, you throw together a case which has not even half the value of your Mafia case, and OMGUS-vote me.

Plenty of people were voting for JR, and I've barely mentioned any of them.

They stopped attacking Johnny when you replaced in.
I did not.

Once I criticised you over your playstle and then later, after more careful reading, over all your scummy actions, that is when you became convinced I was scum.

The thing is...

I HAD BEEN ATTACKING YOU SINCE BEFORE YOU REPLACED IN, CALLING JOHNNY SCUM, AND THESE ATTACKS CONTINUED WHEN YOU REPLACED IN.

There was

NO

elevated level of attacks; I was JUST CONTINUING MY ATTACKS AGAINST MY TOP SUSPECT.

Stop feeding the rest of the town your load of BS, VP.

You keep repeating this mantra and it seems less true every time you say it.

The thing is...I AM BRINGING UP MY META TO SUPPORT IT.

Metagaming IS legit evidence, no matter how much you try to discredit it. Have you looked at ANY of the games I linked?
Like, at all?
You don't have to read more than one or two of them to realize that what I have said thusfar is true and I believe every word of it.

I already pointed out how you are saying this while also saying things like "my actions are always pro-town".

The thing is...

I wasn't.

My actions are like a coin.

There's a Pro-Town Intentions side, and an Anti-town side.

There is NO pro-scum (role) side, or pro-town (role) side to the coin.
Just pro-town intentions and anti-town.

Making my actions NULL tells, and yet, both pro-town and anti-town in intention.

Really. I'll find the largest font size MS.net can produce and use it here if necessary to get this point through your brain.

I can quote that again if you'd like.

Yes. And I can quote out what you leave out to prove you wrong.

It's all a head game. Hell, in your last posts you're trying to say that you misrepping people's positions is a null tell. That is completely ludicrous.

1: This is a HUGE misrep. I was saying that I WASN'T MISREPPING PEOPLE.

2: And that this same accusation for the SAME BEHAVIOR was made in previous games where I was town. Did you actually LOOK at the link provided?

3: So, no. I wasn't saying me misrepping people's positions is a null tell.
I was saying that the attitude other people accuse of being me misrepping people's position is a null tell,
AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT MATTER.

VP's twisting my words and AGAIN leaving out key details of the argument.

Also, notice how Mastin is trying to softclaim a powerrole above in 782. The scare tactics continue.

No softclaim. Just a breadcrumb, and later, a hard claim supported by my breadcrumbs throughout the thread.
The fact that you picked up on my breadcrumb proves that you're scum, with Khan, who submitted the kill on whoever and failed.

re: Khan-VP-Lowell scum team- Again, this is stupid if you're such a meta lover. Newbie 696 I bussed my partner on Day 1 and that was probably the most I have ever defended a scum partner. In Amnesiac (which I don't know if the original threads exist still or not), I bussed CheifSkye4 and she was the first wagon that formed in the game. It ended up falling apart before her lynch, but I would have followed through. In One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, I bussed Josh Lyman on Day 1 for the lynch as well. You can also look at the ongoing you are in and see where I was on those lynches.

For someone who claims to care about meta so much and has warned everyone about my scum meta, you certainly don't pay very close attention.

Okay, VP. Let me explain to you a few things.

1: You, by one of the scumslips you made, were trying to attack Khan. I called you out for it. This could've led later to bussing.

2: You might not be bussing because either
-Khan's a vital scum power role,
or
-You have a small mafia faction, and need every player in there alive.

This doesn't make sense.

Makes sense to me. I stated the minimum percent that I see as the probability of all three of you being scum together: AT LEAST 60%.

What's there to not make sense about?

I say you said it had a 60% likelihood of being correct. Your reply is that I'm misrepping you because you said it had AT LEAST a 60% chance of being correct?

At least means the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM. Meaning that it could be LARGER THAN THE GIVEN NUMBER.

My point above is that your odds disproprtionately high you dolt.

1: Personal attack. ("dolt".)

2: Odd, seemed to me like you were selling the idea that it was too low of a percentage for it to be worthy of my vote.

That is what is ridiculous about that-that you are claiming to have caught an entire scum team without knowing anyone's alignment and are giving the odds at 60% (or apparently more). I don't care who you are, it's nearly impossible and you definitely are not that good of a player.

Oh, really?

-I nailed both of the scum in 735.
-ON PAGE TWO, I nailed both of the scum in 742.
-I nailed TWO OF THE THREE scum in MY FIRST TRUE POST of 760,
-I nailed half of the scum in 763, and after Battle Mage's fakeclaim, had nailed the last scum.
-762, I had later nailed the scum on day three, due to the Sir night-kill and Mitey's lurking. (Too bad I was dead. :/) I had been initially wrong (due to Henrz), but I got it right later on.

Yes. I am that good of a player, VP.
Stop attacking me and my record.
Your personal attacks against me should have NO place in mafia games.

Again he claims he never does anything scummy. Also, this magic coin simultaneously has a pro-town side and has no pro-town side. This is what I am saying when I refer to gibberish.

That's because there are two types of pro-town, VP.

The pro-town intentions (whether the style helps the town or not), versus the anti-town intentions (the 'or not' half of the coin), and this is the coin.

Versus the pro-town role, and the pro-scum role, which are not part of the coin,
Making it a null-tell, something I'd do regardless of alignment.
Yes, I never do anything scummy, VP.

Now that I call him on saying his actions are always pro-town, he argues they are always anti-town as well.

Explaining the difference. While my actions do have a pro-town side, they have an anti-town side as well.

Really, it's not that hard to understand. The coin metaphor works perfectly.

How much more non-sensical can one get. Let me ask you a question, Mastin: If you're actions are always null as you claim they are, do you believe you are above reproach? Should player ignore everything you say as being simultaneously "pro-town" and "anti-town"? If that is the case, then any scumhunting you are claiming to do is null as well.

1: I am making perfect sense. It's my fault for not specifying the difference between pro-town intentions and pro-town role, but now that that's clarified, we can move on.

2: Yes, my actions are always null.

3: But, no, a player shouldn't ignore me. As my scum hunting attempts are ALWAYS legit, regardless of my alignment, they shouldn't be ignored.

re: mastin being interested when suspected--this is horrible play if it is true.

Yea, well, live with it. I stated this in a Discussion thread. My definition of fun. I explained this further in this thread, giving more specifics, and I'll add that into said post after this game is finished, because my explanation in this thread is better.

It is essentially saying that you want to draw town focus away from actual scumhunting because it's more entertaining for you personally.

Misrep. It's me saying that I have fun scum hunting in my way.

Worth noting is that I skimmed most of your posts because they were horrendously long and void of good content.

Really, then?
How would you know how much of my posts were full of "spam", then, if you were just skimming them?
Lynch that scumbag VP, already.

Upon closer inspection, they show how scummy you really are.

Translation: "Upon learning that you're not going to back down, I had to try and make you look more scummy than you actually are, because I'm scum and you're not."

And thank you for pointing out that post because it shows exactly where your OMGUSing is coming from.

What you fail to take into consideration is the fact that I have constantly been attacking you, where you started attacking me only after it was clear I would not back down, OMGUS.

I attacked you over your playstyle and lack of real content (which are not personal attacks btw) and that is the exact moment you got up in arms about it.

The thing is, you're wrong. My attacks were constant. There was only an increase in their severity when you increased your content, giving me more to work with.
There goes your theory of me OMGUS'ing you.
The only possible increase in severity of attacks is due to an increased amount of content from you, incredibly scummy comments which I have noted.

I was one of the first people to call you out for rolefishing, so yes, please back this up with some quotes you plan to misrep.

No, actually.
That accusation had been there before.
The thing is, it wasn't rolefishing, because I was trapping someone already claimed.

NOW that I am claimed, I'm actually expecting people to ask me for more details in an attempt to trap me if I were scum.

But at the time, I was unclaimed, and was being rolefished, but was not, myself, rolefishing.

Lemme guess, the quote where I say at best it's entrapment, which came long after I accused you of rolefishing? I also don't think entrapment is a valid town tactic. There is a reason its illegal in the law books.

Yea, well, vigilantes are also strongly frowned upon by the law. They're still in mafia games.

Actually KK makes good points in post 785 and I'm not going to continue to respond to Mastin regurgitating the same crap over and over. KK I hope you don't replace out because I think Mastin is lynchable today and then everyone will be better off. I'm sure his scum partners are even considering lynching him at this point.

We're at 7 votes now, we only need four more. SC and anyone not voting Mastin, I ask you to use reason here. You can't honestly believe that Mastin is being effective at scumhunting or helping the town in any way. This matter is only going to resolve in either him or I being dead. Vote for whoever you think is acting more scummy and let's be done with these giant walls of back and forth that are making this game a drag.

And I just shot them down.

VP is asking for me to be bandwagonned for reasons I have shot down countless times. He also creates a false dilemma as well. ("It's either me, or him!")

---

Yea. VP's caught, lying scum. We need him lynched.

[Mastin]

Came across VP's post just after posting my own.

So, by breadcrumbed the whole day you mean you mentioned it one post where you claimed about fifty different things including being scum? Where else did you breadcrumb it at?

Let's see...my breadcrumbs...

Oh, and by the way, I'm a Mafia

Roleblocker

. My target last night was one of the names in here:
fallen angel
Faraday
Hayker
Johnny Rotten

Kublai Khan

MafiaMann
Mastin
Mufasa

Khan was in the middle (along with Johnny, ironically) of the people listed. This was intentional.

I didn't want to make it too obvious in case Khan was a killing role who got blocked.

Welcome to Mastin's layer. He's a serial-killer-lyncher-jester-member-of-a-four-man-mason-

roleblocker

-tracker-watcher group.

I always have to do this absurd claim some time in a game. It's just too fun not to do.

It should've been obvious that I had suspected Khan a great deal throughout the day, and gave a huge hint right here:

Perhaps you failed to consider that maybe Khan tried to do something last night as scum (like, say, night-kill someone), and him panicking if it failed to go through, thinking he'll be exposed.

If scum fail to successfully carry out their action, they have reason to be afraid, in my opinion.

I constantly brought up the example of a Roleblocker--why? Because I am one, of course.

I gave examples on the way to claim as a roleblocker, to give an example. ("I'm an Emerald Roleblocker. I blocked XX last night because he said he'd kill me if he got a killing role"-->Dead giveaway, for example.)

This became particularly heavy in the example posts you gave, VP, and I continued with the Roleblocker example in my response to your posts.
Why?
Again, because I am one.

These breadcrumbs have been here the entire game, just waiting to be exposed.

[Mastin]

What grounds do you have for suspecting four killing factions? Even if you actually did block Khan (which I don't believe you did) the odds of hitting scum who sent the kill are unbelievably small.

Because I suspect his Miller claim. I have since the beginning. To me, it seemed like either,
1: A legit claim,
or
2: Scum panicking about something having gone wrong and claiming miller.
Maybe he didn't submit the kill. Maybe he's a mafia power role who failed to carry out his action. Or perhaps he did and it was blocked.

But because of the miller claim after I blocked him, I had serious doubts.

Took a while to find the best early ones which I posted above.
While I didn't quote, I also gave the general idea of the later ones as well. Want those to prove it?

There's no denying that I am a Roleblocker, VP.
I'm fine if you doubt the alignment (Emerald vs. Scum) of my claim, due to how scum roleblockers are more common than town roleblockers,
But you can't doubt that I did block Khan, because there's an overwhelming amount of evidence to prove this to be the case.

[Mastin]

Why would Khan panic about this?

Fear of being exposed, of course. If it were a roleblocker stopping his action (It was), then he'd be worried about it, in my opinion.

And what makes you think he would claim miller?

Not knowing about the consequences of a miller claim that rofl had pointed out later.

Like I said, I think he's scum. I've had my eye on him all game.
But rofl's points make it so that I don't want to lynch him today. (I'll just roleblock him again to prevent him from getting any actions in.)

[Mastin]

Anyway...
I'll be busy for a while working on something in real life which is close to being finished, and once it is, will give me far more free time. When I come back, I'll catch up and respond to new posts some more.

[Mastin]

For reference, the game that was ongoing, VP scum, VP's lousy meta on me.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 84#1741184

Is now over.

[Mastin]

Right, so I've been busy. (For once, NOT as a player! )
Now, where'd I leave off...

[Mastin]

Uhg. I hate it when I fall eight pages behind. So much more fun to catch up with, though.

[Mastin]

...Zaz...was...mafia?!? Dang it, Zaz, you always do that to me.
I blocked Lowell last night, thinking if any of VP/Khan/Lowell were to submit a kill, Khan wouldn't; he's too large a suspect. VP wouldn't; I was going hard after him. Lowell would.

Yea...four night-kills looking a little less likely, but I wouldn't eliminate the possibility.

Anywho...

Mastin Votes: VP

.

While Zazie's flip makes it less likely for Khan to be scum (Unless Khan were Cerulean, or Zazie pulled an epic buss along the lines of 141 [she put me at L-1.]), there is no such guarantee about Lowell or VP.

[Mastin]

An observation. I know, kill speculation, kinda bad/possibly rolefishing, but this is interesting info.
Sotty7, Emerald Townie - Slaughtered Night Zero
elvis_knits, Emerald Jailkeeper - Murdered Night Zero
Konowa, Cerulean Mafia Doctor - Annihilated Night Zero
MafiaMann, Emerald Townie - Lynched Day One
Seryna Kise, Emerald Townie - Slaughtered Night One
nadroj15 ZazieR, Vermillion Mafia Goon - Murdered Night One
Mufasa, Emerald Neighbour - Annihilated Night One

Right, so the flavor matches up perfectly.
Konowa-Mufasa Annihilated. Likely vig/sk due to the choices.
Zazie-Elvis Murdered. Considering Elvis's record (good player from what I've seen), as well as Zazie's constant push for a Khan lynch (good motivation for Cerulean-Khan to nk her)/generally appearing pro-town (she always does. <_<), likely both scum kills. Specifically, the Ceruleans are likely who did this.

That leaves Sotty7-Kise Slaughtered. This one doesn't exactly seem like a mafia kill, either, though. I haven't seen Sotty7, and Kise didn't look like a very pro-town player to me. It looks like a vig/sk as well, actually.

Conclusion:

In my eyes, I am seeing evidence that further supports my theory of four killing factions with one of them being blocked.
While Khan is slightly less likely to be mafia, he is far from cleared (and actually looks kinda bad, considering how many people were shouting "Vig, shoot Khan!" D1), and I think it is a VERY real possibility that he was blocked in his nk attempt N0.

Night one, (under my four-killing factions theory) either I was correct in the fact that Lowell would send in the kill,
Or something else stopped a kill. Given as we already had a jailkeeper flip, as well as a Mafia Doctor, it stands to reason that there are more out there. (Likely, a Mafia Jailkeeper if the last kill was on Khan. As Zaz was a member of the Vermilion Mafia faction, and Khan is less likely to be Vermilion, leaving him as Cerulean who lost their doctor, this would mean that he wasn't protected by a doctor, yet he is who I can see as a very likely target.
This is all null if the last kill wasn't Khan, though.)

Also, I wouldn't eliminate the possibility of three mafia factions. We know there are at least two. But a *lot* of the buddying going on thusfar in the game would make sense with small scum factions (two to three members, making six to nine players mafia total), in my opinion. ('Cept me and Zaz, as, well, I thought she was town and was defending her as such, not to mention, our similar playstyles.)

You can discuss this while I begin to stop procrastinating and comment on the last eleven pages.

[Mastin]

WARNING

:

This post might be insanely long. Take action accordingly

.

How has VP not given reasons? I think you missed post # 746.

He gave reasons for his vote, alright. Just not very good ones.

Heh, heh. Good luck.

Mastin stating that I'm OMGUSing because he was voting for JR is quite a load.

Yea. It is. Thing is, that's not what I was saying.
I was saying that you were OMGUS'ing me because I didn't back down when you asked me do, so you vote for me and throw together some very poor reasoning. I attacked Johnny, you asked me to stop after that. I attack you, THEN you OGMUS me.

Plenty of people were voting for JR, and I've barely mentioned any of them.

Thing is, VP, none of them attacked YOU after you replaced in except for me. Hence, the OMGUS from you.

Once I criticised you over your playstle and then later, after more careful reading, over all your scummy actions, that is when you became convinced I was scum.

Thing is, I thought Johnny was scum and attacked him for it. I continued attacking you after you replaced in, and you OMGUS me for it, while others just backed down.

You keep repeating this mantra and it seems less true every time you say it.

Thing is, it's true. I've said this same stuff for a long, long, LONG time because it's true. It's truly null coming from me.
Why don't you just go on and doubt long posts coming from me are a null tell while you're at it?
This is my playstyle.

I already pointed out how you are saying this while also saying things like "my actions are always pro-town".

And you ignore the fact that I've explained this above:

My actions are a coin. Intention-wise, it's either anti-town or pro-town.
Doesn't give you my role or alignment. Making it null.
Neither pro-town in role, nor pro-scum in role.

I explained that DOZENS of times in the above; it should've been made perfectly clear.

I can quote that again if you'd like. It's all a head game.

You can quote me, VP. All you like. So that I can point out the full quote and explain why when I say my actions are always pro-town, I also say they're always anti-town, and aren't a sign of alignment, making them null, neither pro-town (in role, unlike the above) nor pro-scum.

Hell, in your last posts you're trying to say that you misrepping people's positions is a null tell.

And we have a misrep right here.

I said that I wasn't misrepping.
And that this attitude had come from me before, specifically, 742. Ask Khan if you don't believe me;

Khan, was not there the accusation of me misrepping people in 742 where I was town?

I wasn't misrepping there, but the accusation was made.
I'm not misrepping here, yet the accusation has been made.
I'm not going to misrep people in the future, yet the accusation will almost certainly be made in the future.

So, yea, null tell, the supposed misrepping.

That is completely ludicrous.

Some people still believe that lurking is a strong scum tell. If presented with a player like K7, I'm sure they'd usher the same line.
Simple fact is, players who back up their cases with meta are more likely to be correct. More in-game evidence solidifies this stance. I've proven how I wasn't misrepping.
And to further prove that it wasn't any sort of scum tell, I gave examples of me having been accused of misrepping in previous games, where I wasn't, and was town.

Also, notice how Mastin is trying to softclaim a powerrole above in 782. The scare tactics continue.

I am curious:
What did you think I was claiming/breadcrumbing, exactly, VP?

This doesn't make sense. I say you said it had a 60% likelihood of being correct. Your reply is that I'm misrepping you because you said it had AT LEAST a 60% chance of being correct? My point above is that your odds disproprtionately high you dolt. That is what is ridiculous about that-that you are claiming to have caught an entire scum team without knowing anyone's alignment and are giving the odds at 60% (or apparently more). I don't care who you are, it's nearly impossible and you definitely are not that good of a player.

It seemed to me that you were definitely saying I was putting too much weight into such a small percentage, as in, 60% was too little.

Also note the personal attack in here. ("you dolt")

Add to that, yes, I am that good a player, VP; my record speaks for itself. I've nailed almost every scumbag in all of my games, with one exception (that being 141).

Again he claims he never does anything scummy. Also, this magic coin simultaneously has a pro-town side and has no pro-town side. This is what I am saying when I refer to gibberish.

I've explained this before. Simply put, Pro-town intentions and pro-town role are two different things entirely.

If you're actions are always null as you claim they are, do you believe you are above reproach? Should player ignore everything you say as being simultaneously "pro-town" and "anti-town"? If that is the case, then any scumhunting you are claiming to do is null as well.

Skimming my posts is fine. My scum hunting in there should be noted and used, as I have a habit of picking up on things most players ignore. Things that help me nail, say, all five scum in a game.
They should use what I write. But not ignore it, and not try to use it against me.
If they're pro-town.

re: mastin being interested when suspected--this is horrible play if it is true. It is essentially saying that you want to draw town focus away from actual scumhunting because it's more entertaining for you personally.

I do better scum hunting when I'm having fun. (Reference: Beard Mafia, I was bored.)

I was one of the first people to call you out for rolefishing, so yes, please back this up with some quotes you plan to misrep. Lemme guess, the quote where I say at best it's entrapment, which came long after I accused you of rolefishing? I also don't think entrapment is a valid town tactic. There is a reason its illegal in the law books.

Entrapment is trapping scum. No problem with the tactic.

i was in amnesiac mafia where baltar was scum, and i think he's town here)

How much of Amnesiac Mafia did you think VP was town, though, rofl?

Most likely most of it.

---
Whoops. Heh, heh. People can ignore the VP comments above; I already commented on them way back here.

Why were you addressing just Zaz, Wicked?
I seem to recall other instances of this as well.
Possible scum team?

If my kill fails, I panic. It means something went wrong, be it doctor (clearing the person protected, in some instances), or roleblocker.

I don't like your first two examples of breadcrumbs because you claimed a bunch of different things at the same time (which I definitely felt that if you were scum you were going to refer to when you claimed).

Eh, there are many more breadcrumbs; I love 'crumbing. Those were just the earliest ones. I always include my actual role in my early-on breadcrumbs, 'cept if I'm 'Nilla, in which case, I'll throw in everything plus some.

Mastin, I think you are forgetting that we have lives. We can't comment on everything that you say, otherwise, we would be extremely behind in the game.

Of course not. I don't expect everyone to do this.
I do, however, expect those who attack me to do that.

1: Well your not right all the time.

True, true, I was wrong in 141 about Nabakov, but other than that, my record's fairly solid.

But who were you "trapping" in this case anyway?

Khan. When testing his claim.

First you say that you never rolefish, and then you don't even defend yourself, but instead point out something anti-town that you did that you admit seems anti-town. In case you don't know what I mean, you pointed out that it was anti-town to give the scum more information then they already have, but asking for more flavor in a role claim does give them more information in case they were planning on role claiming in the future.

Like I said, Khan's claim made me think of a theory on that matter.

Summaries surely shouldn't suck.

If you think there are points that absolutely can't be skipped then bold them or point them out at the end.

Or size thirty it.

Hmm... Do you know something that we don't? That is sure what it seems like.

The reveals n0, and now proven.
Emerald, Emerald, Cerulean,
Emerald, Emerald, Vwhatevercantspellit-ian.

Vote MafiaMann
Previously stated case, plus his unvote of Mastin without any sort of question or reasoning doesn't strike me hard as coming from town.

I need to look over my exchange with him again after this whole mastin sideroad.

Heh. Note how Mafia flipped town.
Wonder where he'll go, now?
After me, hoping that he can get me lynched?

Maybe Hayker, who has gained rather some amount of suspicion?

The ones in the RVS were a) in the RVS, which you tell us to dismiss as you joking around,

Well, yea, I tell people to dismiss my RVS claims in order to prevent them from figuring out my role. I always put my real role in there, somewhere. But because I purposefully make it harder on people, it's best to ignore them and only pay attention when I DO claim.

and b) far too vague.

I claimed roleblocker in my first post. <_<
(Sure, it was Mafia Roleblocker, but still, roleblocker)
That's not vague at all. :/

The later ones could well have been made in preparation of a claim given pressure on you was mounting. (ie you see you have to claim something, start mentioning roleblockers then a couple of posts later, you claim. )

You can look at how I breadcrumb. I start out light (learned the hard way in 742 to not start out heavily), and then get heavier as time goes along. Did it a lot in 735, 742, 760 ('Crumbed Kiego in a few places; didn't point 'em out), 762 (lots of doctor tells), etc.

If Khan was scum and had a few partners in crime, then you are assuming that he made the kill?

What's to say he hasn't?

It doesn't make sense to me.

Night zero, anyone can perform the kill.

You seem to be pretty sure about that.

And fortunately, I am alive, VP was wrong. (Maybe setting up wifom for today, "He claimed PR and lived; he's scum!")

You shouldn't defend others, you should let them defend themselves.

Pointing out a slip is attacking someone, not defending them.
What, should I not attack someone, and let them attack themselves?

If so, then do it if you haven't.

PBPA's take time.
Time means not getting caught up.

Nope, it was indeed, fishing for flavor.

Fishing for flavor from Khan (darn, broke the alliteration. ) equals trapping him. If he answers incorrectly to the "flavor fish", he's scum. Correctly, he's less likely to be scum.

Evidence that Mastin's "scum-hunting" is more smear campaigning than reality. Taking 4 words out of context and labelling them as scummy doesn't make it true.. It's like yellow journalism.

The thing is, Khan, Throwing in the Towel DOES mean giving up.
There's no other meaning for the metaphor.
And if you're giving up in a debate against me about you being scum,
You're admitting to being scum.

It's simple logic, really.

I'm not taking four words out of context.

I'm taking four words that seem out of context and putting them back into context. Because, by itself, the phrase, "throwing in the towel" isn't anything, it means very little in a mafia game.
Put in context, into the debate, and it makes Khan look very bad.

The problem is that Mastin is brow-beating and badgering people into accepting his point of view. They are tools of intimidation and bullying.

Funny, I've always played this way.
Since 742. 735, 760, 762, 763, etc.
I told people who the scum were, and asked for votes on them, explaining why.

This is no different than back then.

You should know this by now, Khan.

Evidence that Mastin's "scum-hunting" is literally just OMGUS.

If it were OMGUS, then I'd label all the people on the wagon scum.
I labeled Wicked and Rofl as town,
And said that others might be scum,
But ONLY three were probable scum+ (meaning, at least probable scum on the list, all the way up to--in my eyes--certain scum)---You, VP, Lowell.

This (and there are many examples of this) is what's known as a Bare Assertion Fallacy. The fallacy is summarized as follows:


* Fact 1: X claims statement A.
* Fact 2: X claims that X is not lying.
* Conclusion: Therefore, A is true.



This is bad logic.

Thing is, Khan, this fallacy is blown full of holes when I give proof of me having done it in previous games (Meta), which then PROVES that I am not lying,
Therefore,
Am telling the truth.

Metagaming for the win. Like how I was desperately trying to prove my meta of playing the way I was in both 735 and 742, wanting to reference the other, while they were both ongoing.

And for the most part it's been the ONLY logic that Mastin has used to defend himself. When someone questions him on it, Mastin resorts to simply repeating himself (and the aforementioned brow-beating) until people stop questioning him (Another fallacious way of arguing: Argument ad nauseam)

Thing is,

I give proof.
I show why the accusations against me are false, giving in-game proof to show why.

To further back the point up, I give examples of me having done the same thing as a pro-town player, confirming once and for all that it is true.

I answer every question directed at me with in-game proof,
And then give metagaming examples to back the statement up further.

What's the problem with that?

This is a variation on the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. Given the fact that most of his arguments are of a fallacious nature, it's surprising that he would insist that only scum would attack him hard.

Thing is, Khan, it doesn't matter what my logic is.
If I can prove accusations against me are false, both with in-game and metagame proof,
Then those who refuse to listen are either tunneling hardcore town *coughsroflcoughs*, or scum.

It's simple logic, really.

Let me get this straight: I joked about killing you in the pre-game thread (i.e. no roles yet),

Well, that was enough. Night zero actions are always random from pro-town players. (Scum, not so much; they choose their targets for a kill based off of skill.) That little pre-game thing was more than enough to gain my random choice N0.
Night Zero for a pro-town player is like the RVS during the day. We might as well rename Night Zeros into the Random Killing Stage.

so you decide to roleblock me.

Yea, yea, I'm selfish.

So you leap to the conclusion that (A) I ended up with a killing role

Due to the Miller claim...

and (B) there should have been 4 kills.

Yes. This night confirms it. Zazie looks like a scum kill; the other two look like vig/sk kills.
Where's the other scum's kill, then?

. Since you're still alive then (C) you successfully blocked me from killing you.

Figured you would if you got a killing role fulfill your promise.

So (D) I panicked and (E) claimed miller as a result of panicking.

Mm-hm.

Really, Khan. I'm the guy who nails scum on page two from logic that was called absurd and insane.

Do you honestly think that I wouldn't have this thought process?

Oh, and {after reading Mastin's 825} (F) I'm a newbscum idiot who thinks that I can ride a fakemiller claim to victory.

That's not what I was saying.
I was saying that you might not have thought about the points rofl made.

You never answered, to my knowledge, Khan:

Did you, or did you not, know about the points that Rofl had made?

(Eh, as scum, you'd likely lie, but have to ask, anyway)

And ignored the much, much more probable scenario that there are 3 killing roles and you blocked a miller.

I just don't think that there are only three. Especially with the choice of kills.

So you admit that your whole case against me was based on having a faulty conclusion first, then smearing the facts to fit the conclusion.

Funny. This reaction is the EXACT same kind that Khan had to my Cop claim in 742. I claimed cop here and said that the case on Kronos WAS BS. (Bad choice of words. What I had meant was that--while the case was valid--it was just the tip of the iceberg.)

He took advantage of the bad wording.

My quote:

THAT is one of my main reasons for suspecting Khan, above all else.

So you admit that your whole case against me was based on having a faulty conclusion first, then smearing the facts to fit the conclusion.

He twists my words. I had said that it was one of my MAIN reasons for suspecting Khan.

Not the ONLY.

And this definitely strongly reminds me of his response as caught scum in 742, when I said the case against him was BS, due to my habit of having a horrendously bad choice of words.

Plus you breadcrumbed hard. Like a giddy scum wanting to get caught so that he can claim as soon as possible. Someone more town would make 1 breadcrumb early then never mention it again.

Want more proof Khan is scum?
This quote.
He KNOWS that I breadcrumb hard as town.
See 742.

So, did he forget a very vital part of my meta?
Don't think so; he's scum.

There's no evidence, Mastin. I can't confirm that I was blocked because I have no night action that can be blocked. The mod did not send me a notification saying that I was blocked. NOTHING CONFIRMS YOUR STORY.

'Cept my breadcrumbs, the fact I think that a kill was stopped, and the fact that I never lie even as scum except about alignment (and in Newbie Games, role. However, anywhere else, I'll tell the truth about my role), and that when I claim, I'm truthful about my role. Really, people figure this stuff about me over time:
I never claim a role that I am not, even as scum (with Newbie Games as an exception).

it would be super-fantastic if he posted in a manner that would make me want to actually read his reply. (i.e. short and to the point)

Well, you *might* have gotten that if this were new, but as I am catching up...

The fact is that Mastin is behaving stupidly about this and that is why I keep ignoring his giant sized questions. If he has suspicions to bring then he can post them, he does not need my approval to do so. He is harping on this PBPA thing because he hopes it will make it look like I actually care if he does it or not, which I don't.

Thing is, PBPA's take time, and are long.

I'll take this as approval, though.

Furthermore, this sprung from me asking what the points on JR were from multiple people and never receiving an answer. It doesn't require a PBPA at all. One only needs to link to some previous posts where the points against him are clearly stated.

Not from me, VP. I don't work that way. I post my cases as full-blown PBPAs. Summaries Suck.

To sit there and repititiously scream that I need to give him approval to make a case is dumb. Make your points or shut up, but either way I don't think there is a significant case to be made against me.

After I catch up, I'll work on it, okay? I'll prove this false.

(which i find is a easy mafia claim to claim)

Yea, yea, easy mafia claim. Which is why it's gutsy if I'm mafia,
And why either I'm telling the truth and am an Emerald Roleblocker,
or am still telling the partial truth and am a *faction* Mafia Roleblocker.

Either way, I'm still a roleblocker, who is blocking his choice of scum.

.also everyone seems to overlook the fact that he could have easily planned that claim well before the day started.

Considering the fact that Roleblockers are more common from scum, why would I breadcrumb it as scum if I wasn't a Roleblocker?

---

Oh, boy.
Oooooh, boy...

This was only up through Page 34.

Umm...*edits the beginning of the post*

Better make sure it's well-known this is long. Heh heh.

[Mastin]

I *hate* bad timing.
Will be V/LA for most of the weekend, due to camping.
Still *counts* 10 pages behind; talking this much doesn't help me catch up. <_<
(But, on a side-note, don't stop. I like the pace. Even if it makes it miserable to catch up, at least the game isn't dragging.)

[Mastin]

Yea, yea, was V/LA; just now got back. It's going to take time to catch up.