Mini 737 - Hack Poetry Mafia (Game Over)

[springlullaby]

Missed the thread, but two pages in and my head already is aching. I refuse to scumhunt if the level of coherence isn't raised. For instance, please do try to make clear what is jest and what is genuine inquest.

[springlullaby]

Surely you dolt, I'm not active lurking. I'm lurking lurking, which is not the same thing. I don't feel strongly one way or another about the things that are discussed, so I'm content with settling back and watching. I'm a patient person, and I like testing others patience.

[springlullaby]

Surely you dolt, I'm not active lurking. I'm lurking lurking, which is not the same thing. I don't feel strongly one way or another about the things that are discussed, so I'm content with settling back and watching. I'm a patient person, and I like testing others patience.

So you admit to lurking? You admit to sitting here, watching the discussion and not contributing? Come on. How is that pro-town in any way? I don't see it to be.

Vote: springlullaby

As to the whole budja thing... Jesus christ. I'm not sure what's really happened with it all, I got lost somewhere, and I'm gonna have to reread before I comment, and that's not happening tonight.

That said, I find it odd how you all jumped on fhq, but I'm not quite sure what happened there either, so I can't comment till I reread. (Still not happening tonight)

Surely, if you had something better to discuss, you wouldn't be voting for a lurker. Or is your vote simply a convenient one?

I have an opinion alright, but nothing I feel strongly about, so I'm not wasting my breath. For the time being, I'm happy to watch. What you makes of it doesn't concerns me.

[springlullaby]

Nope, an active lurker create the deception of contribution by posting no-content.

I never claimed I was contributing in the first place.

[springlullaby]

I'm not sure how to take that replacement comment. Don't you want to see if I lurk all the the way?

[springlullaby]

I'm not sure how to take that replacement comment. Don't you want to see if I lurk all the the way?

Why are you lurking?

I haven't had my epiphany about this game yet and I'm waiting for it.

Also, for the sake of being contrary, a little. Which is interesting in itself.

[springlullaby]

Busy atm.

[springlullaby]

Nice, a deadline. I'll call my shots before that.

[springlullaby]

Since you guys asked for contribution, you get what you deserve, the entire content of my scrapbook in all its unintelligible glory. Conclusions in bold.

gads:

3. RV Red
24. something about RC's playstyle, says don johnson quick to show his suspicions - not sure what it means,
50. note 'biggest thing' is budja vote, think Ice's sus a bit of a reach-soft
67. with RC, find goat 'interesting' because pushing budja the hardest, implying goat is town - queer, i'd says RC is pushing the hardest, Goat is pushing the most deviously; says should look at lurkers - scummy or naive, the best way to deal with lurker when it's not endemic is to let them lurk and see
126. signal will post later
131. no qualm with either goat or spolium - ok; seems to suspect Ice over omgus - open ended, do not like
161. saying that he wasn't defending budja
172. repeat position on budja; ok explanation about lurker; press don about the L-1 comment - ok argument

Milky play since the beginning, nothing to make waves certainly. Backseating. Am willing to lynch.

RC:

4. RV Budja
35. wb reply ok; Ice not sure what it means; gads a little affirmation of independance; confirm vote on Budja not so good, ok note on spolium and don.
45. disagree with Ice on wolf; "more concerned with budja - dunno what piggyback mean
55. resays it looked like piggyback ask for clarification on individual suspicion from budja - I don't feel budja looks like scum, this singleminded pressing is kinda sus, have to see how it develops
64. seems to be sticking to the budja vote with an explanation amounting to 'gut', not much of a clarification, more like a repeat - do not like the single mindedness pinging some
72. ok explanation to everything, lenghtily, bore me to tears; good point about ellipses - like :: TR
81. FOS ME - cliche argument also, sitting back and watching is what the cool kids do, when you have nothing to say, keep it shut
98. says like Ice, not spolium; says would lynch budja - TR
116. nice post , agree - slight TR but a little short on conviction
133. admit to being caught in a contradiction - good move but scum RC have enough exp to know not to try covering it up; seems to be very confused - given the confession of not giving this game as much attention as it may deserve, the prod to replace me come off as rather hypocritical
143. would not be opposed to a gad lynch, would prefer budja - boo; well I am playing sort of; omgee blatant misrepresentation and trying to steal all my cool points
150. affirm support case against budja
159. reply , thinks with RC is that the replies are tidy but everything is soft. tp for saying whom he doesn't like though
170. suggest I may be jester - this indicate doesn't really think I'm scumscum
174. does that mean you know I'm not scum?
183. certainly not
184. budja lynch or me policy lynch

Milky play but sold on budja and a couple a relevant townie feeling observations. Low danger in keeping around a little.

don:

5. RV WOLF
18. normal response to spolium's vote
20. ok smiley
25. a response to gads - I don't get this post, what the accusation was in the first place, scumlink don+gads
34. ok answer to spolium
37. VOTE BUDJA for posting twice with little input and criticism of 'budja's tactic to get scum to appear' - can't read
49. express regret at rhyme; further question budja ok - TR overall
62. general pov, UNVOTE - hard to tell why the unvote here but not scummy, more soft play
75. VOTE ME for active lurking
92. ok reply to Ice, UNVOTE ME - "uncomplete meta is a terrible reason to vote someone" - queer, why didn't you think that before voting me? - milding vibe
95. reply to Ice, says he is rereading basically - neutral
99. "no. escpecially considering he came out of the gates guns blazing and then shut down the attack after a well explained response and an FoS from spolium. no comfort at all. " - pinging some Ice reads town
106. ask a meta question to budja concerning Ice - bad, where did that come from?
123. answer to spolium - ok
127. more reply to spolium - waste of time bit shifty, no like; promise of reread
129. reply to lynx over ice meta - slight TR
135. suspicion on my sex, why, am I calling your penis into question? a little jokey with RC; ask if RC think made a good case against budja - null though not like much question as it looks throwaway
149. some replies to RC ; press Jebus - the fact that don mainly does echoes is starting to grate on my nerves
162. three pointed question to gads
165. FOS JEB for lurker L-1 - dunno, true caution or know i'm town?
176. a spirited post which sounds genuine, but would be easy to fake as it is mostly general consideration

Milding, nothing to make waves no drive as it seems. Kinda hypocrite on my lurking: was one of the first to jump, but since criticisms appear to be my biggest champion. Willing to lynch.

magis/plonky:

6. RV magis
11. point out wolf's vote not true
14. defend and say his vote was random - a little jumpy maybe
147. ----------------->plonky, what a cute avatar

Nothing. Waiting on.

Lynx:

7. RV Goat
43. says about to replace out, agree with enough rhyme sentiment, long post for that
52. says don't like budja vote because think Ice vote was serious - this is in essence a repeat of the 'piggyback' argument
65. more stuff about budja and baselessness of 'pressure vote', seems to back off budja; UNVOTE
78. VOTE ME - do not like, please spare me the cliche argument; FOS gads for turning this into a lurker hunt - huh, contradication
86. says like Ice, a bit of relevant opinion on how scum play - ok ; relevant remark on the spolium - soft
88. convenient excuse what?
93. Nice tidy reply but not saying much of anything
100. reply to Ice - nice and tidy, but still no big stance on anything - pinging
128. thinks goat is right on fhq and I; thinks ice evaded question; reasnable assessement of my play if a little bit hypocrite in accusation of others, lynx was first to jump
130. recognize was wrong about don.
139. not that it was addressed to you, I think it is fun for the game alright.
152. ok question directed at RC, gads, jebus
169. address gads - the gads case date back to what, page 2 - fishing at the end of that post, kinda
171. ok reasoning about my lynching

Milky play all the way, no definite stance on anything, also proves to be quite the hypocrite about people jumping on my wagon thing. But couple of keen observation.

Low danger in keeping around a little.

Wolf/jebus:

9. half serious v Magis: defending RC?
12. clarify, says magis defend gads
23. says magis been defensive - a little harsh, but okay to start of dis I suppose; get a little self righteous about Ice9' vote - TR overall
132----------->Jebus replace in
141. funny mispelling of spolium into 'spoliom', very funny word that;ok post, a little hazy on the why of everything but null
142. kinda funny vote, merits questionning - i always think jebus is a girl
154. vague but ok answer to spolium on all front - wrong about spolium imo tho; queer, both game I remember with Jebus, I was scum - maybe scumslip here
155. clarify, pressure the lurker vote?
156. say gads last post felt pro town - legitimate reason
158. ok reply to spo
163. I'm not getting the logic behind this, if you think I'm anti-town town, what's the point in putting me at L-1? especially since you seem to have bigger suspicions elsewhere? what does my getting lynched would be in aid of? why should I talk at L 1 if I have decided not to since, you know, you think I'm town? - bad jebus, don't assume anything about how people should play their game

Mild, wolf was kinda TR, but Jebus is hard to read atm. To be kept around for observation.

Budja:

10. RV AZHREI
32. Wagon hop Wolf - neutral
41. says rhymes were confusing, says third vote to provoke discussion - hard to tell, have to see more
53. says not trying to piggyback sus, rhyme as excuse - am acutally ok with this
60. posed answer to goat - like it despite being appeasing
80. ask me to look back - ok
105. budja says everything is flowers and sunshine - no liky
107. quick reply to don
111. feels goat is pressing hard on gads
153. agree with lynx on jebus and also ask for clarification
167. Interpret as you will

Hypocrite play at its best, have contributed exactly nada since that third vote and some defending of self.

High danger: willing to lynch

goat:

13. RV ME, pirate reference, maybe buddying or not
28. jokey with Az - ok
38. ask budja if not a litlle backward
40. Agree with me, ask don for a recap of his vote - ok
47. question budja "catching suspicion on Wolf" vs "sparking discussion" - ok questions
56. says don't see piggyback for budj - good; says 'later scumtell' scummy - milding vibe from this one, seems to be a slight change of angle while still an attack of budja, kinda looks 'see I'm subtle'
57. more budja pressing - almost conversational
59. explain his case on budja - seems to be nitpickin, take long sentence to do it; moot point about "what kind of discussion because" because discussion is generated as he speaks - too nitpicky, too explanatory - pinging
63. response to spolium - I dislike this kinda post, arguing about something in lenght while not at the same time taking a real stance
66. good point about red; somethig about diverging definition of piggybacking - bizarre question, the way I understand it piggybacking is def scummy; upgrade vote on me because I'm posting in other game - ok, but kinda pointless
69. VOTE GADS - a passionate post by previous standard - ok reasons but not ones I would have cited: to watch for omgus
71. ok reply to Ice, ok justification of suspicions on me
79. prod don about rest of the game; not sure what the 'how pro town' is about, FOS ME - ok reaction
84. criticism of people jumping on me - ok
58. meta on Azhrei
97. reply to spolium's hypocrisy attack - long and lenghty post, nothing much of reproach - thing with goat is it s always nulltell and achieving that in defense is easy
103. call it in for a gads wagon - little support for you because people are distrustful of you, my call on it is that it isn't that strong a case
108. reply to spolium about 'shifting emphasis' - ok ; this post actually looks pretty good by all standard - although the nagging suspicion that goat may just be good enough to pull it off is persistent and to look good in defense is easy...TR
110. big long post, just don't see the point -not liking the peaceful tone, where I town in goat's place I would be taking the mickey out of spolium and his sophisticate looking but rather simple case by now
114. reply spolium; the first part is ok; good comeback; a little prod to me - hmm wanna shift suss on me that you feel a little heat? overall TR though
119. very nice and civil conclusion to headbutt with spolium it seems - scumlink to watch
120. tidy reply to spolium. well this kinda post raise my hackles, very undergoggy
136. decide to continue pressing gads
140. ask me why I am lurking
144. question jebus' vote. where did i say that i had no intention of playing?
168. seems to find putting lurker at L1 acceptable; would it means you'd go along with a lurker lynch
177. what do I expect to gain? amusement for myself and who know, maybe insight.

Milky play, convictions seems to teeter out in the course of lenghty argument. But case wasn't half bad by this town's standard.

Low danger in keeping around a little more.

Ice9:

15. V WOLF, says his case is bad
30. calling for a lynch on Wolf on the ground of what seems to be for grasping at straw - a litlle grasping himself but hard to say
31. having fun with the game - dunno TR
44. don't believe wolf's were in jest, says red trying to cover for him - I don't like this kind of post with insinuation instead of accusation or questionning, but too early to tell
70. good point about wolf, seems to be unforgiving about budja; do not like the 'holy alarm bell passage' and the whole unforgiving act' - shows very little nuance and make allegation on spolium the same way as before; agrees with goat on everything bar pulling the trigger - disagreed; FOS GADS, VOTE BUDJA; good point about lurker hunt
83. still seems to be having a biff with spolium - can't say i agree but this post read town, more a little obtuse town to be exact
91. seems to be dropping spolium, a series of kinda relevant questions - likey but cumlik spolium to watch out for
94. well put together and relevant reply to lynx - like
102. a pique a spolium
160. back post
178. busy

Had his moment of TR when attacing wolf then spolium. Petered out to nothing subsequently.

Low danger in keeping aroud a little more.

Spolium:

16. RV GADS
17. another joke on the RV - trying to hard to make it look random?
19. bizarre jumpiness, bait for banter, yet very quick to say 'only jest'
21, 22. clearing confusion, reafirm only joke - looks nervy
33. response to don, a little dramatic maybe, the friend acusation seems a litte too obvious - hard to tell if it's the style or what
36. general warning about word use - do not like
48. a re-say about rhymes, and a bit of 'look me town' - do not like
58. defend budja, anti-town=/=scum; relevant remark on goat's questionning - like
61. kinda defend budja, good point about rhetorical question - me like
73. replys to Ice - nice and tidy till a burst till the end - can't say I disagree VOTE ICE9, omgus watch
74. write post in draft - serious business is serious, may be scummy
90. reply to Ice, nice and tidy. "as I haven't come across many townies who risk this sort of play" - scumslip? - interesting sophisticate looking case on goat, the contradiction is there but it is kinda nitpicking, townies are very hypocrite creatures too
96. something about urgency of drawing people's attention away on Az' part - a little convoluted maybe, I don't like this kind of open ended accusation, seems to be suggesting Ice/Az - if spolium is scum, he is the manipulative kind - pinging some
104. still seems to be calling out goat for contradication - this is starting to ping a lot - contradictions pursued to that extent are what scumcase are made of and the amount of suspicion put on goat is not in line with possible offense; defends gads - null
109. still pursuing goat, I kinda can see where it comes from but I'm not liking because it looks like nitpicking; a lot of defending gads - enough so that gads doesn't look like scum anymore; hmm nice writing actually looks very much town and no emotional manip in sight - but I don't like the case on Ice at all because, well Ice looks pretty town to me
112. this post actually looks quite good, or more acurately it bullies you by sheer confidence into thinking that it is quite good - oh woe is us people with little brains, easily impressed by good command of english - still here the case behind it all is rather slim, so why convolute it - hmm, me decide me likey anyway
117. UNVOTE - wait did you ever vote goat in the first place? I don't think so. seems to be dropping the case on goat maybe townie honesty
119. a string of relevant question, amusingly not letting go of goat
122. agreement with goat, ok
125. pressing don - ok
145. relevant question to jebus;
148. read ' a little for the sake of being contrary'
157. another pointed question toward jebus
173. fraid of jester it seems, beginning to lean toward a me vote
175. same to you as to jebus - do not presume to know how other people should play.

Same as goat.

[/u]Azhrei:[/u]
27. RV DON
29. jokey with goat
42. says enough rhyme
54. says finding budja a bit suss as well - starting to look scummy
82. VOTE SPRING because lurking; comment on budja is that has to reread; not quite sure what happened to gads either - sucky post with sucky vote on me: not indicative interest in getting more out of me, more like seeing a easy lynch
137. Azee offers apology
179. UNVOTE - busy

Nada contribution. High danger because I know he does better as town.

------------------------

So in no particular order, atm I'm willing to lynch: Azhrei, Gads, Don, Bujda.

[springlullaby]

Spring finally you have stepped up to the plate adding something to this game, thank you. Few things though, you criticize a good amount of players for timid play, then you throw suspicions around a few people. After all that you never place your vote. You say people you're willing to lynch, but you don't take a stance yourself and commit to somebody. Seems to me like you're waiting for more support on one of your suspicons to actually lay your vote down. Timid much? Hypocritical much? Yes and yes.

Though it comes off as pro-town posting a huge analysis like you've done, you've evaded any read on interactions with other players. By using this stunt, you've avoided participating in the random stage and chyming in with your thoughts on other player's arguments. Which kinda makes you the most "milky" person playing right now. You're lurking move doesn't clear you of that.

Last side note, I don't see how I was hypocritical for jumping on your wagon when I have been consistently laying my thoughts down. How is it hypocritical when I wasn't lurking myself?

1. You are mistaken, my non vote is not indicative of timidity, it is simply indicative of non preference in the names I listed. If I had multiple votes, I would be voting all of them. I'm amending my read of Az here because I did indeed miss that he has asked for replacement, but consider that I'm committed to all three.

2. I'm not accusing you of being hypocrite for jumping on my wagon, my accusation stem from the fact that you did so, yet criticized others for doing the same.

Case in point post 78:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &&start=75

In that post you manage to vote me for lurking and FOS gads for wanting lurkerhunt in the next paragraph.

3. As for my "evading interaction blabla", I think your complaint is pointless and rather after the fact. I made a choice in how I wanted to play this game, you make up your own mind on whether you think it's scummy or not.

[springlullaby]

SL: you have an interesting take on my play. when i get a chance i will do pbp for where you seem to have missed the boat. don't see myself as a hypocriter on the lurking call. i didn't argue against voting for lurkers, i argued against lynching them. and my input has been pretty consistent. posting your notes does not make you town and it seems you call me out for echoing, yet that is all your notes seem to do themselves.

FoS: RedCoyote

for suggesting a policy lynch, which i have already stated my distaste for.

Spring: if that is going to be your only contribution, besides a vote before deadline, i suggest you request replacement.

Bizarre non sequiture in there. I wonder what made your mind jump from your first paragraph to Red Coyote then back to me again.

On the subject of replacement, I will make it clear that I will not do so. Now please tell me what do you propose to gain from my being replaced.

[springlullaby]

SL: Why no vote? You call out people for "milky" play, but then exhibit that exact behavior by not placing a vote 6 days out from deadline and listing four players you are willing to lynch but no order of preference.

See answer to Lynx.

Beside, I stated my willingness to lynch 3 persons, what is soft in that?

[springlullaby]

Do you seriously want to argue this point?

I may not be voting, but I'm also not committing anykind of vague vote which can be retracted to be 'pressure' or 'reaction' or whatever later on. What I give you is written words stating clearly that at this point in the game, I find gad, don, and budja scummy enough to lynch either.

[springlullaby]

1.Saying you're suspicious of multiple people is fine. What I can pose to you now is who do you find the the most suspicious out of the three? Usually indicative of the vote you cast, but seeing as you didn't place your vote I'd like to know who you believe is the optimal lynch out of the three and why.

2. Calling out people for not posting and people who are clearly here and not posting are two completely different things. I don't know why the others were inactive or most people I consider it a null tell when it happens. When you deliberately chose to be quiet it was suspicious to me.

3. It's evident I already have.

1. Budja, don or gads are all three good lynch to me.

2, 3. You know, this is very interesting. I have read you as wanting to pressure me with your vote untill now. But here you seem to be saying that you take my stating clearly that I was lurking as a definite sign of scumminess and that would change a lot of things.

If that is the case, please demonstrate how it is so.

Please also state who do you think is scummy beside me.

[springlullaby]

Don_Johnson: You FoS RedCoyote, but aren't voting anyone right now. Why a FoS? Where's your vote? Looking back I see you FoS Jebus earlier but no vote as well there. Are you afraid to vote?

no. not afraid. hadn't seen a vote count recently. i am in several games and thought i had a vote laid down here. also, i don't think it would be wise to lynch someone who disagrees with me on day 1 policy, i just found it suspicious that RC again brought up the point. i thought we had already discussed it.

Bizarre non sequiture in there. I wonder what made your mind jump from your first paragraph to Red Coyote then back to me again.

sorry? let me know how you would like me to organize my thoughts in the future.

On the subject of replacement, I will make it clear that I will not do so.

Now please tell me what do you propose to gain from my being replaced

.

my request contained an "if" clause. it should be obvious what we stand to gain. someone who is willing to play, not say "well, i'll let my thoughts be known before deadline.

your analysis seems ripe with misrepresentations(not just of me).

vote: SpringLullaby

i won't lynch you for lurking, but i am willing if all you plan on doing is posting illogical analysis and casting suspicions without evidence. your bolded statement above seems pretty smug, too.

Do you plan on supporting your arguments at all?

Where is my analysis 'ripe with misrepresentations'?
Where is it illogical?
Where am I casting suspicions without evidence?
What does smug has to do with anything?


Here you looks as if you are trying to get me lynched for being annoying.

[springlullaby]

Same question to you don, who do you suspect beside me.

[springlullaby]

I've stated how making such a move clears you of any early player interactions along with the fact that coming in with a big player analysis comes off trying to look pro-town to me. The big problem I have is that a move like yours allows you to avoid getting a read on you.

Besides you FHQ and I wasn't liking Ice's play before he went inactive.

So in your book, not participating for the first 8 pages is definite and irrecoverable offence? Why? Am I not allowing you to read me now?

Why are you linking your name to gads in stating your suspicions of Ice?

[springlullaby]

perhaps if you were paying attention you would have seen fgqhdads question to me, and subsequent accusation of "distraction". what exactly is the "scumlink"?

A scumlink is a possible connection between you and gads. At the time I made that note I didn't see what you were answering to.

hard to tell why the unvote? interesting as i gave two solid reasons. >>

the problem is that you were trying to take us out of the random stage with a vote that was "no worse than a random vote" and "meaningless". this is counterproductive. i have employed similar tactics as town before, so this is not necessarily a scum tell.
>>> as for the vote and its "self defeating" explanation, i am not sure i agree with spolium and goat. a vote carries with it an inherent "ability to lynch". saying a vote is a "pressure" vote does not defeat the purpose. the vote carries pressure until said player unvotes, as we have no way of knowing if it is scum or town placing the initial vote.

You are right. I misread that. Your unvote is justified.

i didn't vote you for meta, i voted you for "active lurking". a vote on a lurker is generally for pressure. i believe someone else pointed to your meta, and i agreed. i was not going to carry the vote based solely on that, however.

That is an alright explanation. But if you voted me for active lurking; why did you unvote me in that particular post in which you mention my meta?

how does ice "read town"? in my experience, aggressive play is dangerous and should be reserved for experienced players. causing a commotion and getting people riled up can be productive, but an aggressive, inexperienced townie can have the same effect as aggressive scum. i.e. if i jump into a car parked on a steep hill and take it out of gear, i will be the cause of what happens next, but it may not be beneficial for the town. my suspicion of aggression is waranted to say the least.

Dangerous play doesn't mean scum. Ice reads town because his post has the boisterous nature of town post. I think the way he unceremoniously dropped the whole Spolium thing is the biggest towntell in his book.

Also, IMO perfect town play is not colouring inside the dot, it is being able to make the correct calls.

On a side note, I very much doubt Ice9 is inexperienced, his post doesn't read like it.

106. ask a meta question to budja concerning Ice - bad, where did that come from?

again, please pay attention. i was clarifying information.

Yes, I have gathered that, but it seemed to me that your question was out of the blue. Random questions is easy scum fare.

correcting someone as to your sex. the suspicion comment was a joke. we have no way of knowing who is male or female. but thanks for thinking of my penis. again, my main question to clarify information as is shown in the very next post >> p. 149

I'd say this is quite the overreaction to the mention of your penis. Shifty.




Sorry, couldn't resist. Because obviously you are the only one allowed a sense of humour. Are you seriously being offended by this?

As for the question, when I read it, it seemed out of the blue, but upon further examination of your exchange with RC, I think you have sufficient motive in asking it.

doesn't matter if you're town, i explained this fully.

Yes you explained. My remark suggest that you may be took that stand at that point, despite never being very concern by my wagon till then, because you may know my alignment.

"sounds genuine, but would be easy to fake." so? basically you are willing to lynch me based on "gut" feeling?

No. My assessment of your 176 is that it reads very town, but town read is easiest to fake when it comes to generic discussion.

explain the hypocrisy. at the time of your "statement" i had 21 posts in this game(20 without /confirm.) you had... 9. of those nine, most were responses to accusations of lurking and contained no game related material, you completely skipped the poetry/rvs, and the ninth one was your wall of text stating your desire to lynch one of three players. so please, explain the hypocrisy.

The hypocrisy is in the fact that you were one of the first to jump on my wagon but has seemingly totally changed your stance.

As for what I perceive as 'who posted most and better' contest, well, luckily for me, the count is not set in stone.


------------------------------------------------------

Now, that said. I will say that your reply here actually looks quite good.

Please tell me, can you discern how much of your vote is distaste for my attitude?

[springlullaby]

I'm not getting your last question. Care to clarify?

Besides you FHQ and I wasn't liking Ice's play before he went inactive.

You linking yourself to FHQ here is strange. Why did you feel the need to bring up his name?

[springlullaby]

Ok, let hit the slow recap because this may be ground for misunderstanding.

Besides you FHQ and I wasn't liking Ice's play before he went inactive.

I take this sentence to signify:

" Beside from being suspicious of you (spring), FHQ and I (lynx) weren't liking Ice's play."

Is that correct?

[springlullaby]

I'd like to ask for a deadline, because I actually don't have all the time I need to answer.

If you're town you want to give me the time to answer everything.

[springlullaby]

A scumlink is a possible connection between you and gads. At the time I made that note I didn't see what you were answering to.

i didn't ask "what is

a

scumlink"? i asked "what is

the

scumlink"? apparently there is not one.

I found this post suspicious because I didn't understand to what you where responding/what accusation you were making. Theft of Haiku?

You are right. I misread that. Your unvote is justified.

thank you and strike two.

i didn't vote you for meta, i voted you for "active lurking". a vote on a lurker is generally for pressure. i believe someone else pointed to your meta, and i agreed. i was not going to carry the vote based solely on that, however.

That is an alright explanation. But if you voted me for active lurking; why did you unvote me in that particular post in which you mention my meta?

i unvote you because you responded to the vote, which was a pressure vote asking you to participate. i mention meta as a bad reason for keeping the vote. i clarify my stance on meta in a later post.

so i dislike people referring to meta in most cases, and when they do i prefer to question them on it and find out where they are getting it(unless i agree with them). generally, i find that when people refer to meta that they are talking bullshit and when called on it can usually produce little to no evidence.

in my only previous game with you, you lurked and were scum, so i agreed to a certain degree with someone else calling you on that meta, however, it was only one game(for me) that i had to base that opinion on and that was not enough to keep my vote on you. it is unfair to pressure vote someone without giving them an oppurtunity to relieve said pressure. no?

1) I think there is still possibility of backtracking on your part in here because you say that you voted me for active lurking: what at the point of your unvote did I do to change your opinion on that? Because at present you seem to say that I have been active lurking all the way. But I actually understand with what you are saying about pressure and allowing one to relieve it so I will buy this.

]how does ice "read town"? in my experience, aggressive play is dangerous and should be reserved for experienced players. causing a commotion and getting people riled up can be productive, but an aggressive, inexperienced townie can have the same effect as aggressive scum. i.e. if i jump into a car parked on a steep hill and take it out of gear, i will be the cause of what happens next, but it may not be beneficial for the town. my suspicion of aggression is waranted to say the least.

Dangerous play doesn't mean scum.

Ice reads town because his post has the boisterous nature of town post.

I think the way he unceremoniously dropped the whole Spolium thing is the biggest towntell in his book

.

i didn't say or imply the bolded statement. dangerous play doesn't necessarioly mean scum, but it does warrant suspicion. the second(underlined) statement is your opinion of what is really a null tell.

1.Please tell me, were your criticism of Ice based on what you think of his alignment, or on how you thought he should be playing?

2. I don't particularly like your 'underlined statement is your opinion' bit.

a) Of course it is my opinion, and I think it is a relevant opinion, so I'm sharing it. The only relevant consideration you can make is whether you think it is a scummy opinion or not. So basically your 'it's your opinion' means exactly nothing.

b) That was basically my trick as scum in the game we previously shared, and the fact that you would quote me almost verbatim here is bizarre, especially since it is not warranted here I think.

106. ask a meta question to budja concerning Ice - bad, where did that come from?

again, please pay attention. i was clarifying information.

Yes, I have gathered that, but it seemed to me that your question was out of the blue. Random questions is easy scum fare.

swing and a miss. is that strike three or four? depends on how you look at this one. the question was in response to a post in which there was a significant prepositional discrepancy. in a game where all we have is our written word, clarity can mean all the difference.

I can give you that making things clear is important. But still is the fact that your question amounted to nothing very much in term of scum hunting and the drawing of conclusion. Are we in agreement on that?

As for the question, when I read it, it seemed out of the blue, but upon further examination of your exchange with RC, I think you have sufficient motive in asking it.

strike five?

Fair enough.

doesn't matter if you're town, i explained this fully.

Yes you explained. My remark suggest that you may be took that stand at that point, despite never being very concern by my wagon till then, because you may know my alignment.

this is wifomic. whether or not you are town was irrelevant to my reasoning. you seem to be simply speculating about scumdj based on null tell behavior.
[/quote]

Of course it is a speculation but it is not wifomic, because if you thought I was scum at that point in time, you wouldn't care about the quality of the wagon on me. But here we may perhaps need clear up something, my speculation here is not meant to be a definitive argument against you, it is an observation, as you may find in notes. I will expand on that further at the end of this post.

"sounds genuine, but would be easy to fake." so? basically you are willing to lynch me based on "gut" feeling?

No. My assessment of your 176 is that it reads very town, but town read is easiest to fake when it comes to generic discussion.

if you think i can fake it, why can't Ice9? again you speculate about scumdj based on null tell behavior.

Here you are missing the entirety of the argument. Your 176 is a post solely consisting of general considerations about gameplay at large, this is the easiest kind of post you can fake town read in because there is very little reason for scum to lie in theory discussion, and the spontaneity and sincerity involved translates readily.

Ice9 may be faking for all I know, but I don't think it is as likely because my town read of him arise from the attitude he takes in scumhunting proper. And that is harder to fake because, when it comes to scumhunting, deception is involved from scum.

Now, that said. I will say that your reply here actually looks quite good.

Please tell me, can you discern how much of your vote is distaste for my attitude?

none. you basically posted a game summary and agreed with suspicions that were already placed on the table. the only "original" information you seem to have posted has been shown to be in the form of misrepresentations of people you are okay with lynching. i can't see why townSL would do this.

[/quote]


1. I think you are unfair, there are summary elements in my notes true, but there are also relevant opinions.

2. I don't think I have misrepresented you as much as I have committed some errors. And I don't the mistakes I made reading some of the post you made are as glaring as you make them to be. I also do not appreciate the ambivalent use of the word 'people' here suggesting plural.

If you think I have intentionally misrepresented several people, please point out where it is the case.

3. The clicheness of 'I don't see why townSpring would do that' is also not sitting well with me.

----------------------------------------

Here is my view on you at this point in this game:

You seem quite outraged by my post, and this I'm not sure yet what to make of. On one hand I could understand a degree of emotional reaction to being accused from town, on the other, I think yours is overdoing it a bit now. And this is suspicious because the 'offended townie' role is easy to slide in as scum.

One reason I can think for that if you are town is that you are pissed by the content of my notes in which I'm snarky at times, but here I'll try to clear this up:

My notes are the process by which I came to the conclusion that you are likely scum but the comment in them are not meant to be definite accusation Ultimately my reason for suspecting you is that when I view everything you have contributed to this game, I think it doesn't amount to very much.

So here I will ask you, do you think you have done a lot of scumhunting in this game? Do you think you look very town?

That said, I will tell you that I feel your vote on me is somewhat understandable BUT not justified from a town point of view. I think it is easy and lazy, and quite scummy as it does not take the game in its entirety into consideration. But I also understand that I have written myself in a somewhat difficult corner concerning you by making, what I think are, some minors mistakes, allowing you to take on the righteous townie role.

So here is what I will do, I will not make it easy for you, and I ask of you for a list of whom you think is scummy beside me, and why. Plus why you think I am scummier than any of your other suspect.

If you are town, there is very little reason I see for not doing this.

[springlullaby]

I'd like to ask for a deadline, because I actually don't have all the time I need to answer.

If you're town you want to give me the time to answer everything.

Eh? A deadline has already been set. Why are you asking for a deadline if you don't have enough time to answer?

Also, can you explain what you mean by the second comment?

That was mistake, I intented to ask for and extension.

I'm asking for an extension because I do not want to be lynched by a deadline vote rush. Which given the fact that there are 2 dead votes from lurkers hanging on me is likely to happen.

[springlullaby]

Beyond this post, you appear to have no real negative reads on me. Your final conclusion does not appear to refect this in any way.

On a first glance yesterday, your post appeared to be fairly insightful to me but when I read it more closely it simply appears to be a summary of the actions so far, impressive but with little actual argument over any of your claims.

It is true I have no real negative read, but taken in its ensemble, the fact that you have in reality contributed very much of nothing is damning, and this is a solid argument I think.

I've stated how making such a move clears you of any early player interactions along with the fact that coming in with a big player analysis comes off trying to look pro-town to me. The big problem I have is that a move like yours allows you to avoid getting a read on you.

Well said, I hadn't noticed that.

[/quote]

Hadn't noticed what? Hadn't noticed that you couldn't get a read on me? How can you not notice that?

[springlullaby]

Okay, that makes more sense.

Please support the extension.

[springlullaby]

What are you talking about? You listed 3 players that you are fine lynching. Why would you be placing a vote for pressure or reactions at this point in time? I'm not calling you out for failure to place a pressure vote, I'm calling you out for failure to follow through by placing a vote

to lynch

.

I also understand that you have given us written word that you would be willing to lynch any of those 3. However, there is a large difference in willingness to lynch, and actually voting someone to move towards a lynch. Saying you're willing to lynch people is pretty meaningless without actually making any effort to do so.

I'm not saying that you are calling me out for pressure vote. I'm talking about the fact that votes can be retracted as pressure or whatever later on, and in my eyes my stating my willingness to lynch if not stronger, equivalent. But at the time I wrote that I had not considered in the fact that deadline means nolynch if there isn't a majority. As such, you are right in your concerns, and I will make my vote today.

114. reply spolium; the first part is ok; good comeback; a little prod to me - hmm wanna shift suss on me that you feel a little heat? overall TR though

Am I forbidden from attacking players while someone is suspicious of me?

No you are not. But it is a possibility.

119. very nice and civil conclusion to headbutt with spolium it seems - scumlink to watch

Originally I thought he was really reaching in his defense of Fhq. In that post I finally realized that we were clashing heads because he misunderstood the point I was trying to make. I doubt it was intentional, so it nullified a large part of my suspicion.

Ok, but I'm also under the impression from the last game we were in that you were more animated than that in your arguments. But it may be that you were arguing against me whom you thought scum.

120. tidy reply to spolium. well this kinda post raise my hackles, very undergoggy

I have no idea what you're talking about.

That should spell underdoggy. Which isn't a word either but it is just the impression that you are quite subdued in that reply. It is rare to see people coming to peaceful agreement with each other in games. Rare also for town post to lack ego/omgus.

168. seems to find putting lurker at L1 acceptable; would it means you'd go along with a lurker lynch

Lurking is a viable strategy for scum if you allow people to lurk and are timid about pressuring them. I was mainly asking that question to gauge don-johnson's reaction, but yeah, I don't have a problem with lynching lurkers, although I'd rather lynch a good suspect.

Ok.

[springlullaby]

How long an extension are you requesting/expecting?

It would also be appreciated if you addressed post #222.

A week I think would be good.

I'm working through them all one by one.

[springlullaby]

Spolium:

16. RV GADS
17. another joke on the RV - trying to hard to make it look random?
19. bizarre jumpiness, bait for banter, yet very quick to say 'only jest'
21, 22. clearing confusion, reafirm only joke - looks nervy

Dodgy assessment, since (a) it was the jokevote stage, and (b) haiku are somewhat limiting. I do recall that you requested that people clarify whether they were being serious or not so I'm not overly concerned about this.

Well, you made 3 posts to clear up the matter on whether you were joking or not. It did look jumpy to me. It's not a definitive scumtell or anything though.

33. response to don, a little dramatic maybe, the friend acusation seems a litte too obvious - hard to tell if it's the style or what
36. general warning about word use - do not like

These two are somewhat related. I had become aware that people may try to explain away terms and phrases perceived to be scummy by claiming poetic license. #36 was meant to address this potential problem and improve clarity, so I'm not sure why you didn't like it given that you were one of the first to call for this.

Well from my point of view, anything that is general considerations about gameplay is easy to fake and is easy to make, so it is ground for suspicions

on others

. Had you done a lot of it, it would have been a scumtell.

74. write post in draft - serious business is serious, may be scummy

I was actually expecting someone to point this out a lot sooner.

The way I see it, careless use of language by townies gives scum more to exploit so it makes sense to take a bit of care. That aside, I've notepad-drafted everything out of habit ever since I lost a ridiculously long megapost to the dread login page.

I can accept the reason you offer here, I don't think drafting is a definitive scumtell anyway. I don't understand people losing post to login pages though, all I have to do is to press 'previous page', and I get everything back.

90. reply to Ice, nice and tidy. "as I haven't come across many townies who risk this sort of play" - scumslip? - interesting sophisticate looking case on goat, the contradiction is there but it is kinda nitpicking,

townies are very hypocrite creatures too

I'm not sure what point you're making (bold) - is it that townies are often hypocritical and thus arguments based on hypocritical behaviour are less valid?

It depends. Sometimes cases based on hypocrisy lacks subtlety because it doesn't take into account the fact that townies are quite often hypocrites too. In your case on Goat, I thought it could be argued that there was hypocrisy on Goat's part ( here I'm noting that I do think that Goat explains everything pretty well afterward), but the margin was so slim that even townie could have honestly not seen it as hypocrisy/ wouldn't want to admit to it.

96. something about urgency of drawing people's attention away on Az' part - a little convoluted maybe, I don't like this kind of open ended accusation,

seems to be suggesting Ice/Az

I don't really understand this either. What do you think I was suggesting about Ice/Az, and why?

Typo, the first Az is meant to be Ice. As for the Ice/Az, I'm sorry I don't remember what I was thinking. Actually, now that I'm rereading this post, I see little of reproach.

---------------

I have a question for you though, what do you think Ice now?

[springlullaby]

I also understand that you have given us written word that you would be willing to lynch any of those 3. However, there is a large difference in willingness to lynch, and actually voting someone to move towards a lynch. Saying you're willing to lynch people is pretty meaningless without actually making any effort to do so.

QFT

In fact, what she's doing is making herself open to jump on the bandwagon of one of the three people that ironically are among some of the most suspected at the moment. Being non-committal makes it easy for her to backtrack in various ways later.

Also, reading further it seems Spring really made quite a few mistakes (admittedly, she did accept some) in her analysis. While this might be no biggie in insolation, seeing as this is her big 'comeback' post after openly and arrogantly lurking in this game, it IS significant. Also, making such a huge textwall and also cross referencing all over the place with rather telegram style comments makes it VERY difficult to go check the validity of her points.

Also, RC's "Oh nice, you're off the hook" pinged my radar a bit...

1. Your first attack is unfair, you shouldn't be concerned over whether my suspects are "among some of the most supected at the moment", but whether you think I'm justified in thinking them scummy.

2. What IS significant and in which way? The second accusation is rather vague, what my being arrogant or not has to do with anything?

3. Well, it is difficult only if you are lazy enough. Lynching me because you feel to lazy to verify my say is pretty crappy I think.

-- In regards to my non vote, see my reply to Goat.

[springlullaby]

SL is my biggest suspect right now. her misrep of me seems intentional and thorough. i think she may have been hoping that people were just going to read the bolded parts and her lynch choices.

That's quite the flimsy accusation to make and it is looking scummy on you. Do you seriously believe in the hypothesis of scumME being so crude about it?

[springlullaby]

SL is my biggest suspect right now. her misrep of me seems intentional and thorough. i think she may have been hoping that people were just going to read the bolded parts and her lynch choices.

That's quite the flimsy accusation to make and it is looking scummy on you. Do you seriously believe in the hypothesis of scumME being so crude about it?

Spring, you admitted to misrepresenting me on several points. to have gone throught the trouble of preparing your giant post, you had to have spent a certain amount of effort. effort shows intent. why the wifom question here? my accusation was preceded by an entire post of evidence supporting it. how is that "flimsy"?

No, I have admitted that I had made 2 factual errors/misreads, which we clarified when you pointed them out.

I'm not sure what you mean by "effort shows intent".

My question may be wifom, but I'm not particularly afraid of wifom:
the theory you suggest here is that I purposely made easily identifiable mistakes in order to misrepresent you. This is flimsy because I'm just not that bad scum, which you should have an idea of because you have seen scum me before, hence my question.

not sure if you knew what you were getting into with "hackpoetry". Spolium had previously tried to commandeer the Haiku form(in the sign-up thread, i believe?) and his poem tried to express his ownership of it. personally i love haiku and didn't think it fair for one player to "steal" an entire form of poetry. this statement could be taken several ways. it was during the rvs. if you don't understand something, ask a question. you didn't ask because you were busy lurking. so by not clarifying information, your opinion was swayed, hence the importance of clarifying post content.

I can accept that.

1) I think there is still possibility of backtracking on your part in here because you say that you voted me for active lurking: what at the point of your unvote did I do to change your opinion on that?

you responded. it was all i asked when i voted.

I'm considering this, and I think it is quite the pointless move.

Please tell me, were your criticism of Ice based on what you think of his alignment, or on how you thought he should be playing?

i don't understand this. i explained how i feel about aggressive behavior. it is not a scumtell, but it has serious anti-town potential. i am always suspicious of it. unfortunately Ice has dissappeared.

I have asked that question because what I see there is a contradiction in terms and possibly a scumslip. Yes you have explained how you felt about "dangerous play", but you have described it as a *townie* behavior. As such, you being suspicious of it doesn't make sense.

2. I don't particularly like your 'underlined statement is your opinion' bit.

a) Of course it is my opinion, and I think it is a relevant opinion, so I'm sharing it. The only relevant consideration you can make is whether you think it is a scummy opinion or not. So basically your 'it's your opinion' means exactly nothing.

you gave an opinion. i disagreed. i didn't get "towntell" from it.

b) That was basically my trick as scum in the game we previously shared, and the fact that you would quote me almost verbatim here is bizarre, especially since it is not warranted here I think.

i stopped reading you at a certain point in that game. remember, i was scum too.

Ok. By curiosity, were you not aware that I frequently used this line of argument in our previous game?

I can give you that making things clear is important. But still is the fact that your question amounted to nothing very much in term of scum hunting and the drawing of conclusion. Are we in agreement on that?

no. by not clarifying things we can let scum slip through the cracks, or make baseless and incorrect assumptions about other players.

Well, I think that if 'clarification' is a minor subset of the making of case. Also I dislike your sudden use of 'we' here, but I fear I might be starting to get very nitpicky.

Here you are missing the entirety of the argument. Your 176 is a post solely consisting of general considerations about gameplay at large, this is the easiest kind of post you can fake town read in because there is very little reason for scum to lie in theory discussion, and the spontaneity and sincerity involved translates readily.

Ice9 may be faking for all I know, but I don't think it is as likely because my town read of him arise from the attitude he takes in scumhunting proper. And that is harder to fake because, when it comes to scumhunting, deception is involved from scum.

okay, so you have a "gut" feeling on me. you produce no evidence to support this. also, you are pointing to a post that was made in response to several other players. you are faulting me for requested interaction. also, i do ask questions of others in this post and i believe that the post itself, inherently aids the scumhunting process. i think you are reaching on this one, supporting my accusation of "intentionally misrepresenting".

Are you missing the point on purpose? Why do you insist that "I have a gut feeling" on you? I never claimed such thing. Where am I reaching exactly? Right now you appear to be the one misrepresenting me.

Here I see the possibility that you may be under the assumption that I regard that post as a definite scumtell, I'll clarify again that it is not the case. I made an observation to the effect that I detected towntell from the post in question, but were wary of it for the reason described. And it was just that, a remark.

I think you are unfair, there are summary elements in my notes true, but there are also relevant opinions.

yes, but your opinions tend to give certain players the "benefit of the doubt" while painting others scummy for what amount to similar gameplay. also, your opinions are seem based off your notes, which you have admitted, are flawed. perhaps it is you who needs to reassess.

Here I think you are being unfair again. It is true that my assessment of this game is not very dramatic, but I believe it is the nature of this game which lead to that. There are very few players who distinguished themselves by their play today, the big bulk of you being in the grey zone, and not particularly distinguishable from each others. I made the best assessment I could, and pronounced myself accordingly.

It is easy for you to criticize when you have not done such an assessment yourself. Maybe you should try so we could compare notes.

I also do not appreciate the ambivalent use of the word 'people' here suggesting plural.

i believe three other players have pointed to issues with your notes as well. three plus one makes four, hence plurality.

And you agree with each and all of these "issues"?

My notes are the process by which I came to the conclusion that you are likely scum but the comment in them are not meant to be definite accusation Ultimately my reason for suspecting you is that when

I view everything you have contributed to this game, I think it doesn't amount to very much.

as opposed to whose contributions? yours?

Well, yes, I think I'm stepping it up quite a bit.

So here I will ask you, do you think you have done a lot of scumhunting in this game? Do you think you look very town?

a) yes. i think i found one. b) i have no idea, and this is a loaded question which no matter how i answer can be used against me.

It was not a loaded when I conceived it, but I now that I consider it, I think it might be difficult to answer regardless of alignment.

I'll explain why I asked it further: you seemed quite indignant at my calling your play milky and amounting to nothing much. But looking at your play, I just don't see what you are indignant about because it is by no measure stellar, and you have pretty much backsitted the entire day. I think town would be more honest in their perspective of their own play. What do you think?

So here is what I will do, I will not make it easy for you, and I ask of you for a list of whom you think is scummy beside me, and why. Plus why you think I am scummier than any of your other suspect.

SpringLullaby
Budja
Red Coyote
Fghjdads
Ice9
Azrhei?
Jebus?
Plonky?
Lynx
Goat
Spolium

my suspicions of you are well documented. your mistakes seem less reasonable as "mistakes". I believe your intent is to misdirect town.

This is not what I asked for, I'm asking for who your others suspects are, plus your reasons why you think them to be scummy. And why you think I'm scummier than them.

[springlullaby]

I'm sorry, I am here, I just was writing a huge post but then my computer crashed and I lost everything. I am, suffice to say, a bit upset about this. Will post later.

Are you content with your vote on me?

---

Now,

Vote Budja

Of my three suspects, he is the one looking the worse atm. Because of the insightful/not so much to the fact that he seems to need find reason to suspect me in others people's post.

[springlullaby]

No, I have admitted that I had made 2 factual errors/misreads, which we clarified when you pointed them out.

sorry, more than two. reread.

Sorry, I think you are wrong. Reread.

Plus I will say clearly here that I find your points of contention in which you found me in error to be pretty feeble on their own right. Because, frankly my dear, I don't give much of a damn whether your "clarifications" were justified or not, and you certainly don't get town points from making them. I think it is just to hand "nulltell" to you upon clarification as you seem to be contending, but it doesn't invalidate my reason to think you scum much. Because nulltell + nulltell doesn't a town make. See paragraph below.

I'm not sure what you mean by "effort shows intent".

you intended your posts to have an effect on this game, no? by putting forth the amount of effort it takes to concieve the amount of notes you posted, it proves that you intended some sort of outcome. maybe not the outcome i am intepreting, but you didn't post, just to post.

Yes, I intended to share my views. And again, as I already explained, what I found incriminating in your play is not all the little elements. It is the fact that when viewed in its entirety, you certainly haven't done anything outstanding in the scumhunting department. Your most spirited post to date is one about game play in general. That is, before I started picking on you.

My question may be wifom, but I'm not particularly afraid of wifom:
the theory you suggest here is that I purposely made easily identifiable mistakes in order to misrepresent you. This is flimsy because I'm just not that bad scum, which you should have an idea of because you have seen scum me before, hence my question.

what "easily identifiable mistakes? you purposely bolded sections of your notes and drew attention to the fact that you did. it was like you were encouraging people to "skim".

That's just a crappy argument. A really crappy and scummy one. My bold were a formatting courtesy and that's pretty much it. To suggest them to be a ploy to "encourage people to 'skim'" is reaching and drawing on thin air.

1) I think there is still possibility of backtracking on your part in here because you say that you voted me for active lurking: what at the point of your unvote did I do to change your opinion on that?

you responded. it was all i asked when i voted.

I'm considering this, and I think it is quite the pointless move.

you are entitled to your opinion, but "pressure" is what got you involved in this game. do you disagree?[/quote]

I already know that I'm entitled to my opinion, thank you, your reminder here sounds scummy though. But no, pressure is not what got me involved in this game. I simply never planned to lurk all day because that would be pointless.

I have asked that question because what I see there is a contradiction in terms and possibly a scumslip.

Yes you have explained how you felt about "dangerous play", but you have described it as a *townie* behavior.

As such, you being suspicious of it doesn't make sense.

do not put words in my mouth. i described it as much more then possible townie behavior. you are strawmanning this one.

I don't think I am, from your own mouth - in answer to my comment in which I said Ice reads town:

how does ice "read town"? in my experience, aggressive play is dangerous and should be reserved for experienced players. causing a commotion and getting people riled up can be productive, but an aggressive, inexperienced townie can have the same effect as aggressive scum. i.e. if i jump into a car parked on a steep hill and take it out of gear, i will be the cause of what happens next, but it may not be beneficial for the town. my suspicion of aggression is waranted to say the least.

In the quote above, the motive you impart to Ice's "dangerous play" is that of a "inexperienced townie" whose play may "have the same effect as aggressive scum" in causing town harm. At no point do you seem to suspect him of being an aggressive scum himself. So no, if you think he is a dangerous townie, then your suspicions are not warranted. This is were I see the possible scumslip.

Ok. By curiosity, were you not aware that I frequently used this line of argument in our previous game?

no, actually, you were the least of my worries, i thought you were bad town and was ignoring you. my hope was to carry you into lylo and then filet you.

I'm not sure about the abrupt shift to levity as indicated by the emoticon, but nitpicky maybe I think.

In any case, my question was actually meant to be business. I orginally pressed this point on you because you sound remarkably like scumME as of right now which is 'hostile defense hinting at possible town tunnel", a comfortable role for scum I find, plus the use of the line "this is your opinion". I didn't like the way you answered, because there are a sea of possible reasons why you could have been using that phrase and you could have pointed that out, but instead your reply was to say that you didn't pay attention to my play in that other game. I think this is overkill because here you seem to want to annihilate the possibility of suspicion, instead of simply pointing out the fact that my argument wasn't very strong in the first place.

But here I will say that this point is difficult to judge, it is possible that you just wanted to indicate disdain and 'one-up' me as town.

Well, I think that if 'clarification' is a minor subset of the making of case. Also I dislike your sudden use of 'we' here, but I fear I might be starting to get very nitpicky.

yes, you are being nitpicky. "we" refers to town at large.

Of course it would.

Are you missing the point on purpose? Why do you insist that "I have a gut feeling" on you? I never claimed such thing. Where am I reaching exactly? Right now you appear to be the one misrepresenting me.

Here I see the possibility that you may be under the assumption that I regard that post as a definite scumtell, I'll clarify again that it is not the case. I made an observation to the effect that I detected towntell from the post in question, but were wary of it for the reason described. And it was just that, a remark.

oh. it was "just a remark"? so i guess i should just let you make remarks that insinuate certain players are scum because their posts look "town"? not sure what your point is on this one. you can be wary of it, but if you publicize your wariness of "townie" posts with no evidence to the contrary and suggest someones lynch, i will find you scummy whether you are targetting me or not. sorry, but that's how i roll. you need to be accountable for your suggestions.

I am very accountable for what I write and I did not insinuate anything: my remark clearly states that IMO the post in question is town looking, but it is easy to fake as it is general consideration about gameplay.

What you seem to be saying here in your defense, strawmanning me in the process, is that I imply causation between the two clauses. This is not the case: I am not arguing that your post is scummy *because* it looks town. I'm saying that it is a post about general gameplay considerations, *and* that if it sounds town, it doesn't impress me much as it is in these post that town tell is the easiest to fake.

i believe three other players have pointed to issues with your notes as well. three plus one makes four, hence plurality.

And you agree with each and all of these "issues"?

can't say right now, but i haven't seen anything i disagree with. for your benefit i can reread them. my point still stands, unless we are looking at a strongly united four player scum team, you seem to be intent on screwing somebody.

This kind of sentence is just pointless.
1. It shows how much you are not paying attention as my suspect are now down to three persons.
2. It is not 'for my benefit', it is your job to reread everything. The fact that you would agree with something and not know what you are approving of is scummy.
3. "Intent on screwing somebody" is terrible argument, and a somewhat crass emotional statement. For one, how do you know that my suspects aren't scum? Should I take this as you believing Budja and Gads to be town?

as opposed to whose contributions? yours?

Well, yes, I think I'm stepping it up quite a bit.

and why is that?

Why what? I'm posting what I post because I'm intent to find scum. This is an inane question to ask.

i think my play has been pretty pro town. i actually cast one of the first "serious" votes, accomplishing what budja claimed he was trying to do with his random/bandwagon vote. i admittedly lost some interest when the poetry died. i think the fact that i am now center stage with you speaks for itself.

One serious vote doesn't make for protown play in my books. The fact that you are center stage count very little from where I sit because someone who is content to backsit untill the moment they are attacked in earnest doesn't look protown to me.

This is not what I asked for, I'm asking for who your others suspects are, plus your reasons why you think them to be scummy. And why you think I'm scummier than them.

you obviously didn't notice the list i posted. top to bottom, scummiest to least. you are scummier because you are more obvious scum. i.e. you are intentionally misrepresenting other players. you are continuing to do so even after being called on it.

No, it is you who missed the fact that I asked for *reasons*. An empty list is useless and scummy.

[springlullaby]

1. Your first attack is unfair, you shouldn't be concerned over whether my suspects are "among some of the most supected at the moment", but whether you think I'm justified in thinking them scummy.

I'm just observing that you, in your original post, gave vague reasons on all three people being pursued by the majority without really putting your money where your mouth is.

And as I have explained to Goat, it seemed to me that my stating my lynch target was, if not stronger, as strong a statement. I still think it is, giving the fact that at the time a number of vote where lame "pressure" votes. In any case, I have accepted the criticism that with the danger of no-lynch, my vote was needed.

2. What IS significant and in which way? The second accusation is rather vague, what my being arrogant or not has to do with anything?

What IS significant to me, is the fact that I interpreted that these are your notes you have made during the game (feel free to correct me). Your 'lurker' posts continually spewed things like "There's nothing for me to say, so I'm not saying anything", yet your notes DO contain content during these periods. Again, I feel these 'notes' were made after the fact, which is evident in the number of 'minor' mistakes you made, some of which now should alter your view on some people, which leads me to the next question:

Who are your top subjects NOW? and why?

You are incorrect, what I said when I posted previously to my notes in this game was that I had nothing very strong to say, so I wouldn't be saying anything. I also distinctly recall stating clearly in a post prior that I had an opinion all right, but just chose not to post anything yet because it wasn't well formed.

I will add here that in actuality, the fact that I didn't have a strong feeling for this game participated in my decision to post my notes. Because in a way, I wanted to provoke something strong to gain a better read from this game.

3. Well, it is difficult only if you are lazy enough. Lynching me because you feel to lazy to verify my say is pretty crappy I think.

Ok, fine, I am lazy because I don't have the time to cross reference every telegram style comment you've made with all the posts you mentioned. I'll concede to that if you concede that your post is needlessly difficult to analyse. Lazy or not, the size of that post alone makes it easier for things to slip by in the sheer volume of it all.

How is it good for town to make your arguments difficult to verify?

I'm sorry I have no sympathy for you. And the point here is that you shouldn't be lazy. Plus other people seem to be doing all right.

I didn't make my argument difficult to verify on purpose. And actually, I don't think it is that difficult to verify, it just take an effort, one you seem proud to not be furnishing. So how is it good for town to be lazy?

[springlullaby]

QFT this was my thinking exactly and I wrote something similiar to it in the post that I lost. I think If Spring is scum with her play she thought she could either
a)Fly under the radar if no one pressed her for deliberately lurking. Allowing no one to get a read on her.
b)play it off as a townie trying to generate info if the gambit failed.
Either way there was a play

Since course A failed her only option was to take the second route. So she created a long player analysis(which comes very seemingly pro-town)

after

she got called out, not while the events transpired. Now I don't agree that the post is ripe with misrepresentations, though I do agree it is somewhat vague(considering many players are classified the same way). But a post of that magnitude is going to be vague from scum and town alike I'd think.

Coyote, I think not buying a case is one thing, but to go this much out of your way to stand up for Spring is a little much.

FOS:RedCoyote

a) This is fairly weak. It seems evident to me that it is impossible to impugn on me the intention of "flying under the radar", given that the first post I addressed about my lurking was to say that I was indeed "lurking lurking". Do you seriously think that with a statement like that that it was my intent to fly under the radar?

b) Or it is also possible that I made this play consciously as town and never planned to lurk all day.

Here I think your accusation, which is speculative in nature and is treading into conspiracy territory, is very feeble because you describe advantages to a play like mine for scum that doesn't exist in reality, and ignore the townie reason which far supersede possible scum motive for my play. I do think discussion generated here is good for a morose town. It is no custard discussion, and my play demands strong positions. And when/if I am cardflipped, it will be relevant to look at.

[springlullaby]

Now, addressing a couple of point directed at me in no particular order:

1. I took these notes progressively. About around each time I posted in thread.

2. A recurring reproach to my observations is that I describe many people with the same adjective "milky". My reply to that is that it is my honest assessment: there haven't been very driven cases or outstanding play in this town. Again, if you opinion differs, please describe where and why.

3. Someone said that my "everything is flower is sunshine" describing Budja's 105 is misrepresentation. I maintain my interpretation.

----------------------

Now, what I think of everyone right now.

Azhrei: Nothing to say about. Downgraded for now to low danger because of impending replacement.

Budja: Still very suspect. It is very unlikely that I would change my vote today. However, I find it also suspect that some people seem to be deliberatly avoiding this wagon: I want for them to state clearly what they think of Budja and why they are not voting him.

don_johnson: This one is a hard call at the moment and it is somewhat my fault. I do believe his reply to me has been scummy in its high emotional inflexion and low quality perspective on the game - unexplained suspects list, plus the fact that unvoting me now if he think I'm scum doesn't make sense: townDon wouldn't care if there are lurker votes on my wagon if he think he is lynching scum. But there is also the possibility that he is ego town. More observation needed. Need to make his position on Budja clear.

fhqwhgads: Don't like at all. Sucky play and sucky arguments to vote me. Also need to make position on Budja clear. But I also think that of the people on my wagon, he has the highest chance of being lazy town.

Goatrevolt: I'm ok with his criticism as of right now. Low danger.

Ice9: I'm willing to leave alone atm based on early town read. Need to re enter the game. Low danger

Jebus: Need to post as promised. Low danger for now.

Lynx The Antithesis: Crappy argument against me. Need to clarify position on Budja. Upgrade to high danger. High frequency of QFT'ing. Upgraded to high danger.

Plonky: Terrible. Need to post something. Upgrade to high danger.

RedCoyote: I do not know what to make of the extensive defence of me exactly, but I'm not complaining. I don't think he has been particularly scummy. Low danger.

Spolium: Ok with atm. Low danger.

A note on Spolium and Goat, I have them at low danger but in actuality, if they do look good comparatively, I haven't been a fan of their play before my notes. It was long winded and nitpicky from both of them, and they have been very shy of making strong statements. Right now I'm explaining this with the fact that this is a difficult town with what I sense to be high error margin, and that they have been on the reserve, but frankly, I expect better.


----> Please heed request of making your position on Budja clear.

[springlullaby]

In other words, you disagree with this argument purely because it leads to the assumption that Spring is scum, and not based on the merits of it in and of itself. Why are you letting your opinion on spring skew your interpretation of the information?

I directly questioned spring on that point. She did not give a response.

Spring: Again, did you compile those notes throughout the course of the game, or did you decide to simply go back and read the game and make a summary after the fact?

I have answered this, in my last post, above the paragraph you criticize below.

A note on Spolium and Goat, I have them at low danger but in actuality, if they do look good comparatively, I haven't been a fan of their play before my notes. It was long winded and nitpicky from both of them, and they have been very shy of making strong statements. Right now I'm explaining this with the fact that this is a difficult town with what I sense to be high error margin, and that they have been on the reserve, but frankly, I expect better.

What? I'll give you long winded, but that's how I always play. All of my long winded posts were in response to long winded Spolium attacks on my scumhunting, at any rate. Shying away from making strong statements? How so? My early pressure on Budja wasn't shy. My attack on Fhq wasn't shy. I didn't shy away from pressuring you. So where are you getting this notion?

"Been on the reserve" is relative. I'm limited in what I can attack based on what has been given to me. If 60% of the game is lurking, there's definitively less information for me to generate opinions on. What you might call "nitpicking" I call the best lead based on available information. If you thought my leads were nitpicking or poor, you could have stepped out and said so. I find it intensely hypocritical that you are calling me out for this when you are a source of the problem.

I can accept that for now, this is why I have you at low danger. Regardless, I do think that yours and Spolium's play has been shy of making waves, and I did step out to say so.

[springlullaby]

I'm not buying RC scum atm, especially in light of the present arguments. If anything is indicative of him possibly knowing my alignment and buddying up to me it would be the fact that he was the first one to bring up the jester business, which is a good indication that he never believed I was scum in the first place, which however also makes his 'white knighting' coherent in the event of his being town.

I'm not answering don's last post addressed at me now because my keyboard is broken and it's painful to type, but know that I think it sucks and read scum.

Goat is also requested to state what he makes of my answer since he has made a show of asking about my note taking.

[springlullaby]

Yeah alright,

counterclaim

, I'm the doc.

No one hammer before I can get a final analysis in.

[springlullaby]

You know what, forget it. To complicate to type. Hammer please.

[springlullaby]

Yeah, that's why you were run up to a claim Day 1. Because you played so good.

[springlullaby]

Good luck to my

scumbuddy

. At least I got you the Doc .

Bye now.

Significant or not?

[springlullaby]

Actually before hammering, allow every player who is not voting Budja to come in once and state why they haven't been voting him:

if Budja is in a two manned scumteam the chance of bussing are low.

[springlullaby]

Unvote

See above

[springlullaby]

Also, you wanna keep an eye on Red now, because of the fact that he has been voting Budja since the RVS and that Budja seems to be taking everything so well.

[springlullaby]

Vote: Budja

for the simple fact he just comes off so scummy it isn't true. I know I am deep into this...but he is uncannily evil

And what has possibly alerted you to this fact? His claiming scum?

[springlullaby]

Jesus alot has happened. I actually believed the claim until Spring's counterclaim because with Budja's seemingly poor play I honestly didn't think he'd be ballsy enough to fake claim. I figured if he was scum he'd take the the easy way out and claim vanilla.

This is total BS, what's exactly is ballsy in fakeclaiming doc? When you are scum and about to be hanged, it's pretty much no brainer.

-----> Smelling of scum


Spolium has been pinging me too. You said you didn't think RC was scum, yet you are pushing him now.

In fact, you haven't done much since that flaccid case on Ice ages ago and been barely scrapping by from participation bonus because of your long winded and unproductive argument with Goat. Plus I think of all people, you have been discreetly pushing for case other than budja's toward the end of the day.

-----> Smelling of scum.

[springlullaby]

Ask you to replace out because you sounds like SUCKS on legs.

[springlullaby]

Hmm. Either I succeeded in my protect. Either there was no kill/ delayed kill/ some other kind of screw.

Right now I think I've just done a good job.

Vote don johnson

[springlullaby]

If you think I am scum, vote me.

In meantime be assured that I will not lift a single finger to defend against crappy accusation. Not that I can't. I just won't. They pisses me off.

I am pondering whether to reveal who I protected as of for now. Maybe a later, if I feel like it.

[springlullaby]

Testing the waters much?

[springlullaby]

Hi, Weekend V/LA notice.

[springlullaby]

prodded post poooost ploust

do carry on

[springlullaby]

Are you purposefully lurking this way to scope out those who continue to call you out on it? If you are, I don't think that is going to help us any longer. I think most players here consider your claim relatively solid, you would likely help us much more if you would pressure other players based on the information you know.

I mean, if you have decided to hold on to your potential doc save (which I do not agree with), you could at least put that knowledge to use by helping to hunt.

I will play the way I want to play.

[springlullaby]

Mod: I suggest you replace hohum, from what I've seen he's got appalling track record

I'll take the kettle under consideration, pot

[springlullaby]

SL: you are a player in this game, not a mod.... just reminding you as you seem to be confused....

I'm curious in which tone are you envisaging the above?

[springlullaby]

I'll take the kettle under consideration, pot

I take offence to that, my pottiness is much more stylish and cool.

[springlullaby]

Sekinj, my question was serious you know.

[springlullaby]

SL: you are a player in this game, not a mod.... just reminding you as you seem to be confused....

Sekinj, I think my question was understandable but don is right. I am asking you in which tone you are addressing me in the quote above.

I mean "tone" defined as : a particular quality, way of sounding, modulation, or intonation of the voice as expressive of some meaning, feeling, spirit, etc

Also, did you miss my question the first time round?

[springlullaby]

read it in whatever tone you want, i dont understand why this is a relatent question. I was simply pointing out that maybe you shoudl worry about playing your part in the game, rather than worry about the responsibilities that are up to the mod. why do you need a break down of tonage?

I'm not interested in reading "what I want". What I want is an answer from you.

I'm interested in your 'tonage' because it helps me evaluate you so please answer the question.

and no, I didn't miss it the first time, I just didn't understand the question or the purpose of it, as I said twice before.

If you did not miss it, why didn't you ask me what I meant directly after I asked the question?

[springlullaby]

I explained my meaning. I don't know what else you want.

I didn't ask for your meaning. I'm asking for your tone. I will make another effort at explaining my question although I don't think it was a hard one:

SL: you are a player in this game, not a mod.... just reminding you as you seem to be confused....

The meaning of what you are saying here is pretty clear. But the manner in which you intended it to be taken is not. I'd like you to describe the tone in which you meant it: i.e. hostile or playful? etc.

Also, please answer this:

If you did not miss it, why didn't you ask me what I meant directly after I asked the question?

[springlullaby]

Let me ask you sekinj, what do you think I am alignment wise?

[springlullaby]

For pete's sake since when do we have a deadline?

Mod: a round of prod please.

sekinj, answer my question swiftly.

[springlullaby]

Also, hohum - why did you replace out from Killing Verse, but not from here?

[springlullaby]

Let me ask you sekinj, what do you think I am alignment wise?

town. I believe your claim that you are the doc, wholeheartedly.

I think you are scum. What do you say about that?

Unvote, vote sekinj

[springlullaby]

Let me ask you sekinj, what do you think I am alignment wise?

town. I believe your claim that you are the doc, wholeheartedly.

I think you are scum. What do you say about that?

Unvote, vote sekinj

I think you are retarded, what do you say about that?

I will ask you why you choose to go for the insult instead of asking me why?

[springlullaby]

Spring: I've played with you before and you did the same silly questions, and came to the same baseless conclusion. Is there any reason you think I am scum besides the fact that I don't understand you or your play style?

sekinj:

1) Based on our previous meta, what makes you think that 'I'm retarted'?

2) Do you remember that, in aforementioned previous game, what made me change my mind about you (in error) is because you insulted me, and I took that as a sign of towniness.

[springlullaby]

Seeing this in my game review.

Spring, why would you withhold this, and what would you say if I went at you saying your claim is bull?

That I would be very interested in knowing why you think my claim is bull.
I'm also quite intrigued why you cannot think of a reason I am withholding the information.

[springlullaby]

I'm also quite intrigued why you cannot think of a reason I am withholding the information.

Do enlighten me.

That I would be very interested in knowing why you think my claim is bull.

I could reply 'do enlighten me first' here, but I fear the time for flippancy is past. The deadline has ruined all my fun.

And it seems to be time for action anyway.

I however demand an answer to the above, as it strikes me as very peculiar that you couldn't think of a reason.

---

So, 2 reasons to my withholding the information:

1. I didn't want speculations of debatable value to clog up the discussion right from the start of the day
2. It allowed me to observe people reaction to the lack of NK, in particular because my protection choice could prove potentially interesting in term of reaction from scum if I have indeed prevented the NK.

Here I will also make clear why I choose to lurk today since I'm at it. Beside my wanting to observe the game, the fact that I was not NK'd could mean that scum deliberately left me alive which could mean the following: that I was very wrong in my N1 evaluation, and that scum counted on my being wrong to lead town to mislynches. I didn't want to create a situation in which, by being vocal, it would be easy for scum to hide in my shadow.

---

Now pretty much time for me to reveal whom I protected, if only to get the info out here. I protected Spolium.

As I said, given my choice the reaction to the lack of NK could be particularly interesting, and I have observations on that subject that I will post later.

[springlullaby]

Jebus, you are not answering my question.

I asked you to justify why you think my claim is bull. What are you "debating".

[springlullaby]

And you would have speculated because I'd asked, and if it has to do with watching mindset, that doesn't make a difference at this time, being so close to deadline.

I don't understand what you are saying. Please re explain.

[springlullaby]

I didn't have a problem with her withholding the info, so why would I have speculated in thread as to why she was doing it? Besides the few reasons that I could think of woudl have been less effective if everyone was made aware.

Please state those reason.

[springlullaby]

@spring: Do you think my post 525 was just me trying to be townie, or did you think that in our conversation the clarification was necessary?

sekinj, why are you asking me this?

[springlullaby]

@spring: Do you think my post 525 was just me trying to be townie, or did you think that in our conversation the clarification was necessary?

sekinj, why are you asking me this?

because several players are saying that my 525 was just a chance for me to get townie points. however, in the context of our conversation, I felt like it was important to point out that I was pressuring you to play, NOT pressuring you to reveal. Being the other person involved, I was wondering if you felt that that distinction was necessary or if from your point of view I was simply getting townie points as well.

Well, I can tell you that you are far from marking townie point with me and I don't remember giving you any such credit at any point in the game.

[springlullaby]

I'm totally miffed by the fatalism about deadline.

It is an easy thing to vote for an extension if people are so willing, you guys are so fucking lazy.

[springlullaby]

@spring: Do you think my post 525 was just me trying to be townie, or did you think that in our conversation the clarification was necessary?

sekinj, why are you asking me this?

because several players are saying that my 525 was just a chance for me to get townie points. however, in the context of our conversation, I felt like it was important to point out that I was pressuring you to play, NOT pressuring you to reveal. Being the other person involved, I was wondering if you felt that that distinction was necessary or if from your point of view I was simply getting townie points as well.

Well, I can tell you that you are far from marking townie point with me and I don't remember giving you any such credit at any point in the game.

I'm just talking specifically about that one post. Do you think my clarification was necessary in our conversation, or just fluff on my part? post 525.

I think it may be either and think it's hard to tell.

What strikes as more potentially scummy here is you asking me for my opinion. Because my being part of the conversation doesn't necessarily mean that my opinion would be more correct. And I think you may be fishing for arbitrage from me to avoid speaking up for yourself, which is definitively scummy.

[springlullaby]

I'm totally miffed by the fatalism about deadline.

It is an easy thing to vote for an extension if people are so willing, you guys are so fucking lazy.

well, the deadline has been effective in my mind since it is actually making you play instead of lurk. if we get closer and are active, I'm sure we will be able to request an extension.

Oh so for you getting me to play was a priority? If so, you are verily full of shit.

1. Whether I play or not doesn't impede you from playing.

2. If you think that the deadline has worked while the only person who has reacted to it is the one person you believe "wholehearted" to be town amidst a cluster of lurkers, then you are either a really crappy player or scum.

[springlullaby]

in 527 and 538 I defend myself. but people still questioned it, so in 545 I asked what you thought sinc eyou were involved. As yes, sinc eyou were involved I thought you'd be able to give a better answer on whether you thought the clarification was necessary. however, i had to ask you 3 times before you answered clearly.

This is from my perspective misrepresentation.

I addressed you directly the first time you asked, asking you to justify your question.

Upon your explanation, I gave you an answer.

You seem to be unsatisfied with my answer and asked for more precision, I deemed the request sufficiently justified and clarified.

Now tell me, is there a point to your pique here?

[springlullaby]

If there is someone I know is town, then YES, they are the person I want to play the most, because I know our alignments are the same. I would value their opinion and judgement and would be upset with them for lurking. that has been my point from my very first post in this game.

This is pinging strongly.

1. It has a quality of underhanded obsequiousness to it, in sharp contrast to earlier persona. Contrast "You are a retard" to "I would be upset because of loss of valued opinion and judgment".

2. The whole wanting the towniest player to play the most is simply full of crap. That's not how scumhunting is done.

I've never commented that my play quality has been high or otherwise.

So your defence is that you are a crappy player?

[springlullaby]

your mother is pinging strongly. you are retarded to be almost confirmed and lurking. you shoudl be using your towniness to the towns advantage, but no you sit back and let everyone else play. why? what is the point in that?

Dear sekinj I have already explained my play but since you insist so charmingly,

1. I am using my towniness to the advantage of town:
a. My being mostly confirmed means that my lurking is less hurtful to town than in normal condition: I am in fact not actively hurting town and I am also getting out the way.
b. I have also explained that given the fact scum probably deliberately choose to leave me alive, I wanted to avoid creating a situation in which I walk right in scum play by being vocal and being wrong right off the bat. Because being most town doesn't mean most right. This I think is actively helpful to town by making scum game harder.
c. I will add here that in a manner, still working on the assumption that scum choose to not NK me on purpose, not killing me have also effect of placing more pressure on me, I'm simply resisting that pressure.

why woudl I not want the towniest player to play and not lurk? If I think someone is town, then why woudln't I want their opinion on others and their reaction?

2. This is what you said:

If there is someone

I know is town, then YES, they are

the person I want to play the most,

because I know our alignments are the same. I would value their opinion and judgement and would be upset with them for lurking. that has been my point from my very first post in this game.

Emphasis on the underlined part. It is just bullshit and scummy, because as town, I have certainly less interest for people I think are low risk.

You can think what you want about my play, it doesn't bother me. I myself have made no comments either way.

3. What happened to you valuing my opinion? If I'm wrong on you being scummy, why isn't it bothering you?

you are impossible to play with sl.

And what is the purpose of that comment?

[springlullaby]

a)I would rather you

help

the town by being involved, than trying to just

not hurt

the town by lurking. I just can't see lurking as a good strategy ever.
b) you are double guessing scum, I don't think you can win doing that.
c) given your early play in this game, it really just looks like you'd rather lurk.

a) I have explained why my play is actively helping the town.
b) This statement makes no sense. The entire game of mafia is double guessing scum. Even more so as doc.
c) What do you mean here? That you do not believe me when I say that my play is purposeful?

why woudl I not want the towniest player to play and not lurk? If I think someone is town, then why woudln't I want their opinion on others and their reaction?

2. This is what you said:

If there is someone

I know is town, then YES, they are

the person I want to play the most,

because I know our alignments are the same. I would value their opinion and judgement and would be upset with them for lurking. that has been my point from my very first post in this game.

Emphasis on the underlined part. It is just bullshit and scummy, because as town, I have certainly less interest for people I think are low risk.

then we disagree. I woudl rather have the help of almost confirmed townies than have them lurk.

Why? What does my being most confirmed change? It doesn't make me more right.

And you are sidestepping the issue here.
I can understand people me wanting to play. But what you said in reality is that the person you would want to see post

the most

would be a confirmed player.

And that is scummy because it isn't a scumhunting state of mind.
Surely, if you were genuinely interested in scumhunting, you'd rather see more from people you think are scum.

You can think what you want about my play, it doesn't bother me. I myself have made no comments either way.

you saying I'm scummy, and saying I'm a crappy player are two different things. one is relevant to the game, the other is your opinion about me personally. I woudln't be continuing my argument with you if I wasn't concerned that you think me scummy. however, I'm not concerned if you just think I'm a bad player.

Fair enough.

it's an observation that I can never win with you. you always think I'm scummy.

The last time that happened I was right, so your statement is pretty queer here.

[springlullaby]

Seriously, you two, cool it. This is becoming like the Ice/Spolium bout earlier on.

unvote, Vote: Spring

Major ping here, you were so damn intent on argueing with sekinj that you didn't even make a single comment on why I thought your claim was bull. After all, you'd been so eagerly asking it.

Jebus, what is the purpose of your vote?

Are you voting me to signify that you think I'm scum?


What is scummy in my focusing my gaze on sekinj at the moment?

And to answer, I have read your reply. I find the whole post to be nonsensical.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 15#1550015

1. You offer very little explanation as to why you think my claim is bull. From what I can gather:
a. Explain why my pointing out budja's post is scummy? what 'look at me' is supposed to mean?
b. Then you go on to say that 'pretty everything on that page' is scummy from me without explaining why.

2. The rest of your post I don't even understand. You base an entire read on DO who presumably "seems to know" that I'm not doc. What does that even mean?

[springlullaby]

Lol what?

Ok. Let's do this slowly. I can actually see if you are doc, why you would have voted Budja instead of counter-claiming me since he claimed scum.

But if you are doc, what made you change your mind about you stopping the kill?

[springlullaby]

nice

And what does that mean?

[springlullaby]

Lol what?

Ok. Let's do this slowly. I can actually see if you are doc, why you would have voted Budja instead of counter-claiming me since he claimed scum.

But if you are doc, what made you change your mind about you stopping the kill?

I'm not sure I understand this at all. Re-phrase?

You say that you are doc and thought me town because you protected me. What in meantime made you change your mind?

nice

And what does that mean?

I could take a guess

Which would be?

[springlullaby]

You say that you are doc and thought me town because you protected me. What in meantime made you change your mind?

A whim, actually. This, and the fact that I'd screwed up as a townie pretty badly, I thought :/

Also, your tone is telling me that you're publicly showing you're not the doctor. Is this accurate?

No it is not, I am doc. I'm simply gauging you and the possibility of there being 2 doc and 1 watcher.

Please explain what in my tone is indicative of not being doctor.

[springlullaby]

It is an easy thing to vote for an extension if people are so willing, you guys are so fucking lazy.

Hahaha. I'm just going to laugh at this statement.

The whole Spring/sekinj discussion is exhausting. I'm only in the middle of reading it, but my advice to sekinj is to drop it. Spring is proving her own point by making me want to vote her everytime she posts something, even though she's ALMOST confirmed town. Hence her lurking is a good thing. It's making me less inclined to vote her off.

First, this is the second time you address me in derisive and unproductive manner. Now if you have criticism to make do it properly by explaining what it is that you reproach me. If you can that is.

---

Now, I have played in multiple docs game before. Large games aside, there is the Quack and Masons mini; and my own modded game currently has three doctor claims on the table. So the idea of more than one doc is not strange to me.

The idea behind multiple doc would to balance them so it can never create an un-winnable situation for scum. So it not impossible and only depends on the setup.

Something to be checked here, although PM's may be different:

@Jebus. My PM contains a quatrain with an AABB rhyming scheme. The first couplet rhymes with flaming/caning.

I suppose you have a poem in your PM too, so, if it checks out with what I posted so far, two question:
- what kind of meter is it composed with?
-

what's the ending rhyme of the second couplet?

This is borderline. You are asking for a quotation. I'm watching this line of play carefully, if anyone is in doubt something will break the rules, PM me first. - Tony

what if there are 2 docs, 1 watcher, a serial killer and a 2 man mafia team. AND the sk just happened to pick Spoilum....

That's a totally strange thing to say.

[springlullaby]

Hit submit instead of preview.

@Jebus

please don't miss my question to you above.

On Jebus, I'm conflicted.

1. On one hand it makes much more sense if a doc protected me from a kimm.

2. On the other, I totally don't understand the reasoning behind the whole 'I thought DO knew spring's alignment ahead of time' thing, even more so that she choose to act on it. I don't see anything that is confidence inspiring in DO's play.

---

So.

1. I am against massclaim atm, way too early, any mod worth it money would know how to design around it.

2. Before doing anything, DO's replacement needs to check in.

[springlullaby]

@Jebus. My PM contains a quatrain with an AABB rhyming scheme.

The first couplet rhymes with flaming/caning.

I suppose you have a poem in your PM too, so, if it checks out with what I posted so far, two question:
- what kind of meter is it composed with?
-

what's the ending rhyme of the second couplet?

This is borderline. You are asking for a quotation. I'm watching this line of play carefully, if anyone is in doubt something will break the rules, PM me first. - Tony

Yeah I'm sorry, I formulated that wrong. I meant to ask "what does the second couplet rhymes with".

See my bold for what I'm asking for.

[springlullaby]

Rhyme scheme for my PM is AABB. The first couplet matches with what you said, the second couple ends on words rhyming with "tie" or "fly". Specifically, the second line of the second couple is another word for 'the end of a persons life'.

I couldn't tell you the meter, though, my English poetry was never very strong :/

Does this match up?


Also, I support lynching DO or Don Jonson. Why massclaim so early?

So you believe me to be doc now? And why do you want to lynch Don?

On the role PM, yes it checks out. It lends you a little credit since you responded quick enough, but the mod was active today and still could have given it to you.

BUT, I'm checking your game history, and you actually played in Bus Stop mafia which had two docs. And you modded a fairly complicated game yourself, so I'm having a hard time buying your candour about the possibility of two doc thing.

---

Now the possibilities I see in no particular order:

1. Jebus and I are both functionning doc, and there are other setup screws ahead.

2. Jebus and I are both doc with differing sanities.
- here be speculations on possible doc sanities (blank, random, quack...) and what they imply.

3. Jebus is scum, gambitting on my being rival scum. Because she thought she picked up on a cop breadcrumb and because she disbelieved my game could be town (the later would be way cool and make my day).

Right now I'm unpronounced, and I'd like to see more input from others.

[springlullaby]

Why do you believe me?

[springlullaby]

Spring: Why did you target Spolium last night?

Because I thought he was pretty town. I can see a follow up question from here so I'll just answer it now, my #360 in which I say I think Spolium looks scummy was a set up. It looked pretty evident from D1 that I was either going to protect Spolium or you. So, on the off chance scum were to choose not to target me, I made sure to scramble the read on me.

This is also why I though at the beginning of the day that, in the circumstance of my being alive, my having successfully made the save was a good guess.

I realize that this answer looks complicated and possibly cast me in a manipulative light, but that's just it.

I have further thoughts about this whole 2 doc 1 watcher thing, but I'd like to post them after DO's replacement, hohum, and Spolium check in.

So Prod them three.

Plus it's that time again.

VOTE FOR DEADLINE EXTENSION

No reason not too. I'll be on low activity this w.e.; and we need time to untangle that mess + setting on a lynch.

[springlullaby]

Busy now, post tomorrow.

[springlullaby]

I'm putting myself on indefinite hold till replacement post.

A question though, sekinj, what did you think of my targetting spolium?

[springlullaby]

Mod: I demand hard replacement on hohum

Keeping him in the game is a joke.

[springlullaby]

Guys, i'm banking on Lynx scum.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 99#1570899
This post is scumtastic. The whole attack on DO is crap, what kind of defence would you expect from DO that would have been ok to you?

Plus, his play today just sounds so oily and obsequious, it's pinging hard.

I would not lie my neck down for town-fhq but I think he sounds more like awkward town than scum. The one point that is scummy is his totally bizarre reaction to Jebus' claim - 'lol can't be town', but that may be awkward town too.

----------

On the 2 doc, watcher situation, I ve decided to stop analysing it. The best thing to do is to try independently to confirm ourselves.

-----------------------

Goat and Spo are back on my scum chart on account of lurking and flabby play today. Spo more so for pushing the DO issue, because I don't think DO's suggestion was really scummy. At one point I was tempted to see Don flip just to make sure. But hey, he backed out of that one so dunno.

---------------------
On sekinj, hard to tell. The scummiest thing he did today is not her back and forth with me, (though the ad hom is a negative point in her favor because it came too early and I think there is a decent chance she tried to manipulate me over our meta because last time i played with her, her insulting me made me rethink her scumminess). The scummiest thing is her very crappy vote on Jebus after she entered the game, with hardly any justification at all. But I something is making me hesitate to vote her right now.

----------------------------

Anyway

Vote lynx

[springlullaby]

Unvote, vote lynx

[springlullaby]

1. I explained my case on lynx.

2. Until recently I though the deadline was april the 11th

Do you have any other question?

[springlullaby]

Plus, his play today just sounds so oily and obsequious, it's pinging hard.

Is there anything in particular that stands out, and leads you to this conclusion?

You haven't even mentioned Lynx today, excepting for the case you just threw down. Why?

Why are you asking me dumb question? Why do I have to mention lynx today?

And btw, Lynx was on my scumlist yesterday already.

[springlullaby]

1. I explained my case on lynx.

Then your case is complete crap if all you've got is my earlier suspicions of DO. He could have answered any other number of ways to defend his vote on Budja. He basically settled on "the case was self-evident" and "how is the vote suspicious when he came up scum." It's funny because your crap argument all stems from suspicion based upon my supposed "weak" attack on DO. Hypocritical much? Oh wait sorry you of course you classified my play today as "oily and obsequious". What a great point when you back it up with completely nothing I'm sorry I was trying to scumhunt and gets some leads earlier today especially after we hit scum while you just sat back and lurked.

2. Until recently I though the deadline was april the 11th

Thats odd considering that the mod posted the deadline timer at 45 hours 2 posts above your replacement request for hohum. Are you paying attention to this game at all? You've been riding your claim enough to lurk throughout a large part of day 2. Even worse is you're throwing this at the town last minute. Possibly in an attempt to confuse the town and deviate us from FHQ's lynch or a lynch in general perhaps.

FOS:Spring

I don't have to back up my say with anything. I judge your play to be oily and obsequious, other people may agree or not.

I'm investigating the timer thing because I do not remember seeing it when I ask replacement for hohum.

[springlullaby]

Well you are actually right about the timer. My mistake. Also the deadline was never April the 11th, but sunday 11 pm. I just didn't read that correctly.

[springlullaby]

I didn't admit my vote to be worthless, I said that I was mistaken about the deadline.

You know your defense is making me laugh because, wait, why are you fos'ing me? Because I made a mistake about the deadline?

I think you are scum, I didn't make a 100k case against you sure, but people can judge what I said already. And they can read the post I linked and tell me if they don't think it pings of scum.

And anyway, I don't really care about the doubt that can be cast about me at this point because I'm thinking that keeping me alive or lynching me are both less than ideal situation for scum.

1. Getting me dead: helps town clear up the claim situation no matter what.

2. Keeping me alive: I'm frigging pugnacious and not too bad at scumhunting.

Oh btw, one more element I think make your scum Lynx, you saying something along the line of 'I think we should keep spring around as she is helpful' at the start of this day. It's scummy because I don't think town would have been petting my head so sycophantically especially since I had you down as scum yesterday. I had reserved my thought on this tidbit all day on the off chance you're dumb cop who verified my alignment and wanted to breadcrumd, but with your fos, your cutting off that possibility.

[springlullaby]

Huh, i'm utterly confused about the deadline.

When is it?

[springlullaby]

Well, then.

Unvote Vote gads

To avoid nolynch.

[springlullaby]

And stop boasting about you're scumhunting it's been anything, but spectacular these two days. Firstly, you're wrong about me scum. Secondly, if you were a good scum hunter you'd actually be able to provide reasoning to your suspicions instead just saying you don't have to back it up people can just believe you or not.

Spring- I believe the doc claim and she's very low on my suspicion list now. I do feel like your posts have lacked as much as your previous content and lacked the same level of scum hunting you expressed earlier in the game ever since your claim(More Busy maybe?). Spring, you got lucky that you're still around today. You're basically a confirmed innocent and

i feel you're a good player. I think you can seriously help the town pinpoint these last scum.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 99#1524799

Lynx baby, I think you really overplayed your defence there. As for my case on you, in some things size doesn't count.

I could write the 100k words version of why you are scum. I'm just choosing not to. You may challenge me on this.

[springlullaby]

And I am obviously challenging you on this matter.

Just so we are clear on this matter, do you think that I can't write the long version? And do you think that I'm lying a scum motivated lie when I say I'm just choosing not to do it?

[springlullaby]

Infuriated as I am by your play (yes, you'll play how you want, yadda yadda) I will note one thing about Lynx's play which stood out to me - before each of the looming D2 deadlines he emphasised the importance of voting asap, HERE and HERE. As such, my curiosity is piqued - if you have evidence to cite for your case, then I would be very interested to hear it.

Call this request dumb, pointless, whatever the hell you want. Humour me, if nothing else. I don't want 100k words, nobody is asking for 100k words, stop acting as if it's one extreme or the other.

Spolium, something strike as strange here. Why are you acting as if you will decide if Lynx is scum on my case?

[springlullaby]

I'd like for Don to speak first if you don't mind.

[springlullaby]

targeted spolium

I dislike the fact that you targetted me spolium.

[springlullaby]

I mean Don in above post.

[springlullaby]

The Jebus kill means 2 things:

- prolly only one scumgroup
- i was probably the one targeted N1
- spolium is no longer any shade of clear

-----------------------------------

don_johnson - I'd like an explanation on why he targetted me instead of Jebus

Goatrevolt - possibility of lurskerscum raising

fhqwhgads - i'm still willing to bet on town Ice/ village idiot millar

Lynx The Antithesis - scum verdict as per yesterday plus the whole OMGUS FOS

RedCoyote - Hard to say, I read him as town though

Rhinox - now that jebus flipped town, i'm considering the possiblity of him being disbelieving of my claim because scumkill failing N1

sekinj - same as yesterday. under observatiion.

Spolium - dunno. i'm thinking scumspo wouldn't have choosen to flip Jebus. but then, down a roleblocker, maf would have to eliminate protective power first chance they get.

I'm halfway considering a me lynch just to see my sanity but that's stupid.

Will have to re examine this closer.

[springlullaby]

why? because it exposes you as a fraud?

Explain how it 'exposes me as a fraud'.

[springlullaby]

I protected spolium because my sanity is in doubt and N1 protection had no adverse effect. That's the correct play for doubtful sanity doc. I certainly wouldn't have protected Jebus in case i'm a quack, killing the doc and framing myself in the process.

I'd like to see what sekinj has to say on this.

Goat, I don't understand why spolium. He is like 50/50 to me, and lynx is much scummier in my book.

I'd like to know RC's reasoning to lynch me.

I'm considering a me lynch because 1. seeing my sanity flip might be helpful 2. i'm VLA 6th to 17 april.

[springlullaby]

Hmm what?

I targetted you N1:
- you didn't die
- I might be quack (kill innocent/do nothing to scum)

-----> where does roleblocking come into the picture?

[springlullaby]

Scum located.

I certainly wouldn't have protected Jebus in case i'm a quack, killing the doc and framing myself in the process.

There was no roleblocker to prevent you from killing me N1, what reason did you have to think you're a quack?

vote: Springlullaby

Oh I see, this would be from your being innocent perspective. That reaction is weird, eitheir unthinking or over the top innocent crumbing: so, tell me, what reason do I have to think that I'm not a quack?

[springlullaby]

I protected spolium because my sanity is in doubt and N1 protection had no adverse effect.

----> N1 protection had no adverse effect, despite a lack of roleblocker - poss. naive doc

I certainly wouldn't have protected Jebus in case i'm a quack, killing the doc and framing myself in the process.

----> Why worry about killing the doc if targetting me had no adverse effect?

Because you may be scum. Are you serious there? Because this is really unintelligent.

[springlullaby]

Oh, wait. Quack docs do nothing to scum at all?

That's how my quacks roll.

[springlullaby]

Well, being uninformed myself of your uninformedness, it was unintelligentness from my perspective.

Quacks have always been kill innocent/do nothing to scum, or there is nothing to prevent them from being used as vig.

See Quack and masons mini for example.

[springlullaby]

Can you cite a game in which such a role has been used?

Wait, are you serious about doubting me on this?

[springlullaby]

Well, being uninformed myself of your uninformedness, it was unintelligentness from my perspective.

Glad we cleared that up.

unvote

I'd like you to answer 779

[springlullaby]

Reiterating in bold.

MOD:

I'm VLA 6th to 17th April. Possibility of checking once or twice, but not certain.

I'll get one good post in before going.

[springlullaby]

Where did I say that I won't post this weekend?

[springlullaby]

Do your guys have a point? You especially sekinj, is your 799 supposed to be sarcastic of something?

If you have something to ask me do it when I'm here.

I'll get one good analysis post before going.

[springlullaby]

I will not raise to that.

[springlullaby]

No it is not. I have contributed relevantly to this game. I have been amiable and respectful in my play, even though when people had been not respectful toward me, because I'm actually trying to play a game. And I certainly have not had the presumption of telling other people how they should play.

So sekinj, this is your limit. If you have a relevant criticism to make, make it.

[springlullaby]

Dear sekinj, I have done more scumhunting than you despite my 'lurking'.

[springlullaby]

Lol ok. What do you call scumhunting then? Because I see none from you.

[springlullaby]

I'm not going to discuss an ongoing game with someone who is not participating in it.

Ok, I've had enough.

Vote sekinj.

Please see sekinj's post history.

1. A hardly justified vote on Jebus when she came into the game.

2. filler posts thorough Day 2.

3. Pointless pestering and smartass comments when out of justification fits her scum meta: see C9++
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... c&&start=0


And yes this is me scumhunting.

[springlullaby]

Actually no.

MOD:

I demand modkill of sekinj.

I hope you don't keep the same playstyle if I am in a future game with you.

This kind of comments are against the rule about no vendettas, and no bringing games outside of the game spirit. It is also blatantly antigame and it intervenes after you have warned her once.

I demand modkill.

[springlullaby]

This is seriously ridiculous. Spring your vote on Sekinj seems motivated by this feud more than the game. Please don't suggest a modkill because they're not fun for anyone playing. If anything replacements are necessary. One of you maybe.

From a completely none-game related view point maybe you should replace out, Spring. You're going to be gone for basically the entire day 3 anyway(Our deadline's the 19th). And it this feud between you two would be put to rest. Better than a modkill pn anybody.

Back to the game, Rhinox I definitely see merit in your points against Don. I've had a strange feeling against him ever since he claimed. I feel his play has largely changed since the claim. His hunting has slipped and I'd like to hear his thoughts.

I won't allow you to dismiss my vote on sekinj as feud.

1. Describe what you don't agree with in my motives to vote her.

2. Explain what you see as town in her play.

---------------------------------

I will not replace out of the game. The accusation made against me are the ridiculous ones. I did play this game and did contribute even if I choose to play it in an unusual manner. And I did contribute more than many others.

[springlullaby]

And to make it clear, my modkill demand is serious and is separate from my case against sekinj.

I demand modkill regardless of her alignment.

[springlullaby]

No. I have tolerated your pointless behaviour during early day 2 with patience. You have been warned for it once already, and I let it slip by because I am actually trying to play a game and refuse this kind of disgusting display. But today you engaged in it again.

My announcing VLA is basic courtesy, and is more than can be said of many a player who did not post for long stretches of time without saying a word. It also permits the mod to find replacement if necessary.

Your comment was out of place of offensive, and designed to be.

It is also inaccurate: you accused me of not participating.

This is a scummy mispresentation, I did participate.

You accused me of not scumhunting.

This is also a scummy misrepresentation, because I did scumhunt. Which cannot be said of you.

I don't see a reason town you would make such offensive, false accusations and I think you are scum antagonizing me on purpose, trying to use appeal to emotion.

[springlullaby]

And to make it clear, my modkill demand is serious and is separate from my case against sekinj.

I demand modkill regardless of her alignment.

You want to alter the outcome of the game for your personal vendetta? You notice how I have been saying ALL ALONG that I hate your play (or lack thereof) in this game, yet I believe you are the doc, and therefore, shouldn't be lynched? I'm not sure how much townier you want me to be. Of Course, if I was scum I could come up with some crap reason to vote you like... oh! not helping the town! but no, I've been defending you, and trying to keep your role in the game in order to help the town.

No, you are discrediting my play on false basis.

You are also using appeal to emotion to dismiss my points against you, and this is scummy.

[springlullaby]

I protected spolium because my sanity is in doubt and N1 protection had no adverse effect. That's the correct play for doubtful sanity doc. I certainly wouldn't have protected Jebus in case i'm a quack, killing the doc and framing myself in the process.

How would targeting Spolium a 2nd time tell you anything? Or are you saying you deliberately were uninterested in learning more? If you were worried about your doc save killing someone, why not target Lynx?

My sanity is unknown. Spolium is 50/50 to me - if I am a protective doc it's 50% chance of a save.

I'm considering a me lynch because 1. seeing my sanity flip might be helpful 2. i'm VLA 6th to 17 april.

How would seeing your sanity flip be helpful? What info would that give us?

If I flip insane, it means that Spolium is scum. One insane doc against one scum is a good deal.

That's quite a stretch. Hoping you don't maintain the same playstyle is a far cry from a vendetta.

It is regardless not in the spirit of the game as it is designated to be offensive and patronising. And I had to put up with her insults yesterday already.

[springlullaby]

No, you are discrediting my play on false basis.

Do you want me to quote all of your posts that you say something to the effect of, "I'm still here but have nothing to say, play on."?? because I don't want to waste my time doing that since I think you are our last doc and not scum. We all know that is how you have been playing this game for the most part, so please stop. that is all I'm asking. At least when you are arguing with me you act like you care about this game.

You are backtracking.

You accused me of not participating, implying with your smartass comments that I did not contribute at all, or that I did not scumhunt.

This is false.

I have contributed and scumhunted significantly each day even if is true that I have announced point blank that I would not participate during certain period of the game. This is how I have chosen to play this game, which I also make clear.

[springlullaby]

well, I'm telling you point blank that I don't like your attitude or your play in this game. I hope you choose to play your next differently.

And I'm telling that I don't care about what you think of my attitude, and that unless you can justify your 'not liking' my play (which you have not been able to), what you are saying means exactly zip.

And this is exactly why you are scummy.

[springlullaby]

@SL - I'm scummy because I think the town's doc shouldn't sit in the background for "certain periods" of the game?

No. You are backtracking and making me repeat myself.

You are scummy because your vicious and offensive insinuations about me are false and unjustified.

You implied that I did not contribute or scumhunt this game. I did, and this despite my 'sitting in the backgrounds': this make your accusations a total lie on top of being unproductive.

Furthermore, you make this reproach toward me while yourself have not scumhunted

at all

this game, and this hypocrisy make me definitively think that you are scum using appeal to emotion to try to make yourself look towny.

If you are town, why the hypocrisy?

[springlullaby]

No. Fail. That other dead guy, fhqwhgads also commented on your play style more than once in a similar vein. We all know what alignment he turned out to be. Stop taking this personally. If your we think your play sucks and you disagree, leave it there. This isn't scumhunting, it's a personal feud. See my previous point.

This is false:

The difference between yourself and sekinj is that you have reproached me my playstyle, but when I told you that you could stuff it because this was the way I was going to play, you stopped the pointless bickering.

Furthermore you have not made false insinuations: sekinj vicious comment insinuate that I have not contributed at all, which is not true.


My voting sekinj is not OMGUS. I am not an OMGUS person, to wit my previous play:

I did not think you were scum despite you reproaching my play. I can understand a certain level of town frustration and expected it, but sekinj's vicious attack are unreasonable and misrepresentatives. And this is why she is scummy.

What in sekinj's play do you think is town beside her attacks on me?

[springlullaby]

The difference between yourself and sekinj is that you have reproached me my playstyle, but when I told you that you could stuff it because this was the way I was going to play, you stopped the pointless bickering.

So I'm scum for not taking it when you told me to "stuff it"? I guess I really just don't like people telling me to stuff it. And it takes two to bicker...

As far as hypocrisy, how do you, as town, explain those "certain periods" that you feel justified to sit in the background? How can a town power role play like that? All I have ever said is that I don't like your attitude or they way you have chosen to play in this game. And as far as I can see, most other players agree with me (if not with my persistance).

The only thing anti-town I have done is spend way too much time responding to you. However, I do beleive it has made a ripe bed for scumhunting. Look at RC for example. His jump on my wagon I found very supicous.

You are doing it again: backtracking and attacking me on false basis.

1. I have explain why I felt justified to sit in the background already.

2. This choice of playstyle have not prevented me from scumhunting nor contributing significantly

contrarily to what you have insinuated.

3. This make your criticisms void and scummy because you cannot justify them.

4. I'm noting here the appeal to majority.

5. You are scummy because your criticism of my play is irrational and misrepresentative. But you are right, you are also scummy because you spent significant time pestering me while you have done nothing protown of note.


In sum, what you are doing here is a prime example of scummy emotional shit stirring: you are encouraging mob mentality which rely on existing frustration toward my play to both discredit me and create sympathy toward yourself, to the disregard of rational analysis.

And this while you have contributed nothing protown so far.

[springlullaby]

spring: responding to you is not making me laugh anymore, so I am done. I will only reply when I think you have something worthwhile to say.

Yes, because you are scum and cannot reply in good faith.

What is your opinion on RC?

My opinion on RC is that he has tied himself to Don Jonson and is low priority for now.

Now, justify your question.

--------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, before going

don_johnson - not a good lynch candidate, linked to RC

Goatrevolt - Lurkerscum on the way to completion.

fhqwhgads - banking on Ice

Lynx The Antithesis - I'm amending this one, prolly town

RedCoyote - tied to Don.

Rhinox - 50/50, needs to be observed

sekinj - scum.

Spolium - not actually scum.


------------------------

My vote is not changing.

It is easy for the lazy and for those whose feathers I have ruffled to want to dismiss my case on sekinj as OMGUS.

And it is easier for scum sekinj to bank on that.

[springlullaby]

back posting later.

[springlullaby]

Ok, caught up.

First a question to the mod I just realized I didn't ask: are sanity revealed upon card flip?

---

Now, on the claim situation and setup of the game.

Multiple cops is a possibility, this game being a mini is not an argument against that possibility (see my mini with 3 cops and 2 doc of differing sanities). Here it may also be taken into account that this game was originally destined to be poetry themed, and I can very easily conceive the humour behind designing a particularly screwy setup for the express purpose of sowing confusing under these circumstances. That said, it is necessary to note here that trying to outguess the mod never goes very far, and the one only valid conclusion one may come to from this kind of speculation is that the nature of the claims are nulltells.

Now the relevant question here is how to deal with this situation.

From observation of the previously referenced game,

a) It is a mistake to expect any kind of information to be generated from night actions: scum have perfect information on that score and manipulations are easy.

b) The only way to play the day game is to judge gameplays only, and this starting now or we will get entangled into endless speculations.

c) None of the proposed night action plans work because we don't know the sanities of the claimed power. Not expanding on this but if I can see holes through it, so can scum.

d) Mass claiming is

stupid

: scum will lie, town will not. Under the present circumstances in which there is no deductive advantages to be gained from claims because of the screwy setup, massclaiming is simply akin to handing scum all the cards with no return benefit.

---

Now it's late. I'll post a game analysis tomorrow. Right now I believe Lynx more than sekinj, more on this later.

A couple of questions in meantime:

@Sekinj

, I'd like you to respond to my case on you point by point as inscribed in my following post:
http://www.mafiascum.net/foru/viewtopic ... 42#1599642

@Red Coyote,

why did you feel the need to notify Ice9 upon his replacement back that you and I both considered his slot to be town?

---

Also, I'd like to ask for an extension of 3-5 days please.

[springlullaby]

@spring - that link is broken. what post are you wanting me to respond too?

Here: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 42#1599642
Post 855.

@mod: Why did you grant spring's extension request right away when I asked for an extension twice for the same reason, her V/LA? it's not fair

ok, I'm done whining, I just had to get that out.

because of goat being gone. I just threw in the VLA for good measure. I would've extended the deadline anyway.
Also, because spring is superawesome. :p

I think this should worry me.
The non response to my card flip question is intentional, yes?

[springlullaby]

Ebwop, tag fail.

@spring - that link is broken. what post are you wanting me to respond too?

Here: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 42#1599642

Post 855.

@mod: Why did you grant spring's extension request right away when I asked for an extension twice for the same reason, her V/LA? it's not fair

ok, I'm done whining, I just had to get that out.

because of goat being gone. I just threw in the VLA for good measure. I would've extended the deadline anyway.
Also, because spring is superawesome. :p

I think this should worry me.
The non response to my card flip question is intentional, yes?

[springlullaby]

spring: No. I'm not going to respond point by point. It's pointless. If you'd like to make a case against me while being objective and with current information I'll have no problems satisfing your request for a point by point response. As it is, that post is just the same old stuff we went back and forth about before you left. and if you recall, I told you I was done with that.

Contrarily to what you are saying, you have not responded to any of the points I have addressed against you. If that is not the case, please provide links.

I will also address your un-backed comment as to my objectivity: if you intend to imply that I am not objective in my case, please point out why you think.

As to 'current information', if you mean your cop claim:

1) You claim changes nothing, and it should not.

2) If anything, it makes you look more scummy:

- You have reproached me (falsely) my play as a power role, saying that I was wrong because I wasn't scumhunting. This is not in line with you being town PR as it would require immense hypocrisy on your part considering that your scumhunting has been non-existent before being called upon.

If you are town, it is in town's interest for you to reply seriously to any accusation levelled at you. It is however very much scum MO to try to dismiss cases.

70

At the moment I see no reason to change my vote: there is nothing valid in sekinj's play beside a claim.

My predication are:

If sekinj flips scum: Goat is the next lynch.

If sekinj flips town, one if not both of RC and Don is scum.

70

@Ice, why do you insist that I protect Lynx?

Have you considered that with Jebus' flip, who was almost certainly sane, the probability that I may be insane is very high?

My position on night action is that no plan should be formulated in advance.

[springlullaby]

Ebwop the 'quote 70' were meant to be between hr tags.

[springlullaby]

Spring: Quote me one time when I said you were not scumhunting. What I have repeatedly said is I did not like your play or your attitude and that you should doing more to help the town. That means don't lurk whenever it suites your fancy.

Damn you for making me do all this work.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 04#1596304

my limit, huh? I'm not trying to tell you how to play... I'm simply saying that you should play. Lurking through most of the last two days is not helpful. I don't buy the excuses you've made for it.

If all our power roles just sat in the background and tried not to get lynched, the town would lose every time.

I hope you don't keep the same playstyle if I am in a future game with you.

Bold mine. What is implied here is that I have not contributed or scumhunted - which would be a valid ground for criticism from a town player toward another player. Were it justified. I do not think it is the case, and I have called you upon this.

This is the third time I'm catching you in backtracking.

Misrepresentation is scummy in itself, it is doubly so here because you have shown continued bad faith in your replies.

Add in the hypocrisy and the only question which remains is, why should I think you are town?

And anyone (except you) can see that you are not objective in your suspicion of me.

Unjustified statement remains unjustified no matter how many times you repeat it.

[springlullaby]

sekinj, what is the meaning of your reply.

If you are town, why are you not able to justify yourself.

[springlullaby]

1) [sekinj's] claim changes nothing, and it should not.

Why? Why risk killing a Cop when Lynx has counter-claimed her? If we don't lynch Lynx

or

sekinj, then we'll likely have one to work with tomorrow.

Then what?
If Lynx dies tonight, what does that make of sekinj?
If sekinj dies tonight, how does that affect lynx alignment?

Waiting after the scum move is never a good idea, and this especially in the current situation as this is not a 'only one of them can be telling the truth' situation - if one of them get NK'd, it would say nothing of the other's alignment.

What do you think.

The former is seemingly senseless, other than to argue that Goat was making the case that sekinj is scum but just

slightly

less than Spolium.

No, I think it is more probable that Goat's play is weak distancing. In any case, I have Goat as scummy independently of sekinj's alignment.

The latter is dismissive of the reasons I've stated as to why don is a much more townie player in this game than he has been given credit for, it absolves multiple players, and it ignores sanities.

I'm willing to put blind faith in your defence of Don for now, but no much longer.

Because he asked for help to catch him up to speed and I only knew our stances toward Ice (sekinj's were just written if I recall and the rest of the players hadn't updated in a while).

I think your post was very bizarre, and may possibly be buddying/coaching.

____________________

I'm not voting Spolium. I think he is 50/50, with play a bit on the indecisive side. But I also think there are better probabilities.

Here I'll note that lynching Spolium to presumably uncover my sanity is totally dumb and stupid and is absolutely not a valid reason.


If the sekinj lynch doesn't go through, I will settle for Goat.

I think Goat's play has been lackluster D1, and regardless of justification for MIA etc, he has been lying low for 2 days.

[springlullaby]

If we know sanities are a factor (and you coming up as scum would help that, don being killed would nearly prove it) then we have more reason to believe our Cops. If we can suspect one of the Cops is insane, we then know sekinj would be that insane Cop, giving us another mafia in Rhinox.

How would we know that sekinj is the insane cop in those circumstances?

Well, we could speculate a number of scenarios. What's to say sekinj is even a Cop at all?

Eventually some sort of action must be taken Spolium.

Speculate? No, RC, you said: "

If we can suspect one of the Cops is insane,

we then know sekinj would be that insane Cop

, giving us another mafia in Rhinox

". How did you know that Sekinj would be the insane cop, unless you could verify that Lynx's information was accurate?

This tidbit is interesting, it doesn't actually make sense that I can determine from either of you.

Spolium, explain better where the scumslip is at please.

[springlullaby]

Then what?
If Lynx dies tonight, what does that make of sekinj?
If sekinj dies tonight, how does that affect lynx alignment?

Like I said in my last post, I don't agree that all night actions are useless in this game. The mafia don't know who/if Lynx/sekinj will visit, and I, for one, want that information in any decision we make tomorrow.

This is very much too naive for my taste. Let me ask you again, and actually same question to anyone waiting for information to be generated by night: what type of information do you expect to be generated that can't be thwarted easily? No you don't need to answer in thread.

Waiting after the scum move is never a good idea, and this especially in the current situation as this is not a 'only one of them can be telling the truth' situation - if one of them get NK'd, it would say nothing of the other's alignment.

And? Killing sekinj won't either. If sekinj is a Cop, and her sanity isn't revealed (which we can expect), we still won't know anything about her Lynx report.
Moreover, I know this isn't an either or situation, which is precisely why I don't think sekinj "has to be mafia" because Lynx sounds more like a Cop.

Are you seriously missing the part where I want sekinj lynched because I think she is scum and this independently of her claim?

I'm willing to put blind faith in your defence of Don for now, but no much longer.

How is it blind faith? It's a reasonable conclusion than any of us could make that a one-member-down scumteam would've taken a pretty big risk to make the claim he did.

Here I'll note that lynching Spolium to presumably uncover my sanity is totally dumb and stupid and is absolutely not a valid reason.

In addition to the recent OMGUS, we know that Spolium's play has changed since Budja's death.

Let's not forget these little gems,

When [Budja's] trying to provoke discussion, it's impossible to determine exactly what sort of discussion is going to arise (particularly so in a game where everyone is second-guessing themselves/others, and scum are waiting to pounce on any careless townie).

My argument was that in my experience Budja has played like this as town

Spolium also took point in that red herring of a "spring defense" argument, which lasted entirely too long.

So I do think Spolium's lynching can be justified outside of any sort of sanity argument, but, if Spolium comes up scum, then it undeniably puts spring's sanity back into question. This wouldn't be as necessary if we didn't have two Doctors/Cops, but now that we do I think this should be our primary concern. spring is a literal walking timebomb if she's a Quack, and I, for one, see it as an increasingly probable role given the way this setup is breaking down.

That increasingly probability, as you might imagine, is only fueling my interest in a Spolium lynch.

1) I don't think his vote on you is particularly scummy atm. And the quote you bring forth are pretty weak, I wonder if you realize that.

2) The issue with my sanity was raised the day Jebus counterclaimed:
she was most likely to be sane as she protected me N1 and no kill happened, this is what made me protect Spolium instead of Jebus in case I was not sane. Why are you catching on this only now?

[springlullaby]

yes. I recieved a brief description. My role PM had my role name, what I needed to do each night, what the results could be, and my win condition.

i can confirm this.

I differ. My role PM to the exclusion of the poetry is: rolename + possible action + wincon. In three sentences.

[springlullaby]

I don't think that was a good lynch but oh well.

My protection will be switched between don and lynx. Or possibly I will sit tight. Or possibly I will protect Spolium again.

[springlullaby]

I targetted sekinj.

So I may be in fact a roleblocker or jailkeeper.

[springlullaby]

Don, tell me you watched Lynx.

[springlullaby]

it should be pretty obvious that RC tracked me at some point.

How so?

why do you think he was so persistent in his support of my claim? i could be wrong, but it occured to me as soon as i saw how he flipped. i haven't seen any breadcrumbs, however, i also haven't reread him.

I would say that is the case, there is one post in particular in which he use the word 'tracking' in conjunction with his support to don.

And I think his N1 watch was plonky/magisterain, the same crumb exists somewhere.

I'm too lazy to dig it up now.

----------------

Yes it's claim time I believe.

Thoughts afterward.

[springlullaby]

agree about the mass claim. we may have been able to avoid the rc lynch if we had done that yesterday.

This is scummy as hell.

[springlullaby]

And I was blocked. So we have nothing new on the cops. I tried to look at ice.

That would mean Spring is probably a jailkeeper. That adds another possible reason for the lack of kill night 1. Spolium tried to make the kill and was blocked.

This doesn't add up, it's either a slip revealing that you know Spolium attempted to NK N1 or just a crappy argument: I targetted Spolium N2 and there was a kill.

If it is a crappy argument, it is also scummy because of its crappiness.

I targetted sekinj.

So I may be in fact a roleblocker or jailkeeper.

Rationale? Was post 1124 an intentional lie or did you change your mind over night?

The rationale behind my protecting sekinj is that I suspected her of being scum.

My 1124 was intentionally misleading.

[springlullaby]

Un-organized and un-complete speculations are to cease, they are pointless.

One proper method to deal with the setup speculation part of the job, which at no time should encroach on scumhunting, is to assume that one person is lying and confront the hypothesis with the data, then do this systematically for all players and see if it reveals anything interesting.

I'll do it when I'm not lazy.

In meantime.

@Goat, no kill on N1 because of spolium being jailed is a possibility, but it is not usable as an increment to Spolium's culpability as there is no evidence that it the likeliest hypothesis amongst alternative scenarii. You using this argument to convict Spolium is indeed crappy, and you not recognizing that is indeed scummy. Agree/disagree?

On sekinj and jailkeeping: my being a jailkeeper/rb is merely a possibility amongst other possibility. I feel that people latching/not latching on this tidbit may possibility interesting to explore, I'm to lazy to do it now, because other equal possibles are a) sekinj lying b) my targeting her having nothing to do in the reported result.

Anyway, I don't want to do the thinking now. Later.

[springlullaby]

@Goat, ok. For some reason I thought you were using it as an argument. I would need to look at that conversation closer.

Now, Goat, what do you think of sekinj?

Ice, you too. As well as Spolium.

Vote: sekinj

I've decided that I'm not going through the drivel. 100% of my yesterday reasons for voting her stands true. + today I see no effort at all at scumhunting.

+ D2 sekinj suggested massclaim: what kind of cop suggest massclaim when they haven't even gotten 1 result in?

+ Yesterday, her asking lynx whom she should target: that whole thing was fail in hell - what reason had she to want to plan investigation since the cop sanities were under suspicion?

-> Nothing add up. And that's a lot of nothing.

[springlullaby]

I think I agree with don.... looking back at the claim/counterclaim, it really seems like budja and spring could be talking to each other.

spring - "counterclaim, I'm the doc, don't hammer"
spring - "okay, go ahead and hammer"
budja - "hammer, good luck scum buddy."

And then spring points out the "scumbuddy" reference herself.

Also, how many times has spring told others that they need to do in depth analysis and not speculate, and then she says she will/should/would do something in depth herself. Then she comes back and says, "screw it", "I'm too lazy", "I don't have time." I think this is just making it appear that she has big reasoning behind her actions when really she has nothing. She has only done the one big "analysis" in order to save herself from a lynch, and even that was not the "notes during the game" that she claimed it to be.

vote: spring

1.The amount of scumhunting I've done this game is positively more than any of the other players, to the possible exclusion of RedCoyote. And it is 100% more than you.

2. My reasoning to vote you is clear, and is separate from the setup analysis that I'm too lazy to do, which I also made clear.

3. Your reasons to vote me are crappy:
- The slant you put on your interpretation of D1 is just that, a slant, it hold no ground because you fail to demonstrate why you think it is more likely than say my counterclaiming scum because I'm the doc: this lack of rigour shows opportunism.
- And the 'scumbuddy' reference part is just plain nonsensical. Explain why my pointing it out is scummy?

4. Refusal to address properly cases directed at you.

5. Senseless OMGUS x2.

Sekinj need to be gone, now. She has been burning on emotional glamour since her entry in this game whereas there is absolutely zero substance in her play and plenty of scumtell.

@Goat, why is voting for nolynch a towntell?

[springlullaby]

Ebwop:

Replace with "200% more than you"

[springlullaby]

No one dare hammer before there is a response.

[springlullaby]

1. Scum can "scumhunt" too, expecially in a game like this that is ripe for calling someone else a lier. I think you say you are going to do analysis, but then never do because you don't actually have anything to say. This creates the illusion that you have a ton of in depth reasoning behind your actions.

2. I never addressed your vote on me. I don't care how clear it is, or how seperate it is from your anaylsis. I think you say you are going to do analysis, but then never do because you don't actually have anything to say. This creates the illusion that you have a ton of in depth reasoning behind your actions.

3. I disagree. I think it is very plausible.

4. I cannot address your cases because there is too much shit to wade through. Your attack on me is completely emotional and driven by your hatred of my critism of your play style. You are not even considering ANY other possibilities at this point. If I am scum, who is my scumpartner? (assuming 2 left)

5. Incorrect. Notice how my post didn't contain any reference to your vote, or anyone else's vote on me. I had been thinking about don's point and it made sense. I can see you trying to pull off something like that.


Why in the world did you want a response? it's not like you have listened to me this entire game.

IF

you are town, you need to learn how to take criticism.

and... what in the world is emotional glamour? and is it really flamable?

1. "Scum can scumhunt too." Sure. What's your point? Town can also act as erratically as you have been, but it is the town job to prove that there is a town motivation behind what they are doing.

2. Again, this is untrue. What action of mine did I not justify? What have I not addressed? I've addressed everything to the best of my ability, if there are omissions, I can address them now.

3. Here again. I level two specific points at you and the only responses you give is nothing.

4. This is false, you have been repeating this but to no evidence. Where exactly did I not listen to you? This is also I think also a scumslip: either you think I'm scum, or you think I'm emotional town. Which is it? And to your question, as I have said yesterday I read Goat as scum. But I think Spolium is a possibility too. No same question back at you: whom do you think is my scumpartner since you think I'm scum?

5. And the timing is pure coincidence I suppose? Do you mean to say that you didn't read my post before voting me?

I mean by emotional glamour a mask of emotion to which town can relate to, but behind which there is neither rhymes nor reason. And yes, in the land of metaphorical speaking, it is volatile.

Sekinj, you have been repeatedly saying that my vote is emotionally driven. But each time I confront you with facts, you slid away and did not answer.

So here is one for you, hypothetically, what would have persuaded you that my vote is not emotional?

-----------

Ice why?

[springlullaby]

So here is one for you, hypothetically, what would have persuaded you that my vote is not emotional?

Maybe I would put more stock in your arguments if you hadn't asked for my modkill simply for criticizing you.

Your description is misrepresentative.

1. The inter-player part of the situation, regardless of your alignment:
Your "criticisms" were both malicious and pointless: there wasn't anything constructive in them. I asked you to stop, you didn't. It also intervened after you had been mod warned once. Whether you like it, I think it was modkillable offence. You don't like my play, fine, replace out and avoid me in the future. That is the correct way of dealing with it as I do not have to put up with your crap, and this regardless of the quality of my play.

2. Why your behaviour in this game is scummy:
Your "criticisms" were unfounded. Period. When I confronted you with the facts, you evaded every time by dismissing it.

And here is one for you, hypothetically, what would have persuaded you that I am not scum?

I can respond to this clearly.

My assessment of you is as follow: you are 100% scum on the scum scale and fifty/fifty on the town scale.

You are 100% scum on the scum scale for a number of arguments that I have delineated in my previous posts.

You are 50/50 on the town scale because there is always a possibility that you really are 100% OMGUS, bad faith and hypocritical town.

But the following reasons make me think you are not town:

- I have made several arguments as to why I think you are scum and to which you did not respond. Were you town, and genuinely thought that I was in the wrong, I think you would have argued with me to death to defend yourself and to prove me wrong. But instead you dismissed them each time. I will add to that that if you genuinely found me that annoying as town, I think you wouldn't resist the occasion to tell me off by proving how my arguments sucks. Therefore I take that your evasion of the argument levelled at you is an admission to not having any argument to counter.
--> To this follow that if you can't find fault with my arguments, I would expect town you to recognize their validity, and not display bad faith by constantly dismissing them.

The bottom line in this is, no argument of mine, or of anyone's, is infallible, but the way you have dealt with the argument levelled at you says scum to me.

My only fear here is that you are deliberately being lame out of un-sportmanship but there is little I could do about that.

What do you say?

[springlullaby]

either you think I'm scum, or you think I'm emotional town.

I thnk you are emotional scum.

[springlullaby]

I targeted Goat.

Don, result? Rhinox, same.

[springlullaby]

I think it would be better for my ego if Don was scum as it would mean I nailed 2 scum D1.

Rhinox: how do you justify don being scum in term of traceable night actions?

Don: where does the whole second scum roleblocker business come from?

[springlullaby]

I'm tempted to play this on a coin flip. That's the amount of interest this whole don/rhinox discussion generates in me.

Goat, I think you are scum, and this even though you have been looking townish today. The pattern fits, start of lurkage just after being put under scrutiny D1, avoidance of hard stance on the 3 mislynches, activity dramatically pick up in lylo.

Here is a novel idea: town already lost. Because the game started with 4 scum in two different scumgroup. Both Rhinox and Don are scum, with Don mafia watcher and Rhinox whatever. And one of Goat and Spolium is scum also. This way it would mean 2 cops, 2 docs, 1 tracker, 1 watcher, 4 scum, 2 townies, AND SYMMETRY IS SAFE!

If that's the case, the 2 manned scum group can just claim now, I'm giving them the win for the sake of cutting through the BS and lauding their better survival skills. No kidding, I'll do it.

[springlullaby]

Lol, that was fun. Was that one page of "I'm sk!" "No you're not!" "I am too!"?

Rhinox, as much as I'd like to command you for being fun, the chance of you being town=0.
Why? Beyond the whole claiming scum thing, there is the beautiful fact that you claimed to be deputy with innocent on Goat, then went on to say that that he was scum with Don in the next breath without so much as an afterthought.

Well, let's look at things now.

First, Don, on the off chance you are town, unvote now. We wouldn't want anything drastic to happen before every last bit of fun and information has been milked out of the situation.

Of course, I don't really think you are town either since you voted Rhinox for not being an SK. (HAHA) Any town in their right mind would just go "LOL is that sum scum claim?" and be done with it.

Here is what I think: the remaining scum should just claim. And we will go on from there.

[springlullaby]

Check out Bus Stop Large, I don't ask scum to claim but I kinda have the same attitude toward end game. Though the whole point is weak as I generally make my meta works for me when I scum. The question here is whether you are asking throw away questions to look townie or are genuinely concerned. So here: what changed between your vote and your unvote?

Your 1208 is also long winded and lame.

1. You were on RedCoyote shortlist D2 and your lurking kinda put a cap to that.
2. You arguing that your lurking is not scummy because it attracted you more attention than not is a crappy argument, it is akin to saying that committing scumtell is unscummy because it attracts people's attention.
3. Kinda true that your activity picked up end of day 3, but it wasn't anything ressembling town proof activity - the bottom line on this is that at no moment did you take a central role in the dynamic of the game, which contradicts the town meta I have on you.
4. If there is 2 scumgroups, you jumping on Budja becomes a nulltell.
5. Scum claimed results means exactly zip and probabilities don't work like that.

So yeah, a whole lot of nothing in very long paragraphs. Are you aware of this or not?

Here something else I find scummy, your lack of comment on Don, who basically voted Rhinox for not being the SK. What is your thoughts on that?

Spolium, you are looking quite the scum saying nothing. No comment?

[springlullaby]

Lol, gah.

The overpowered town was painfully obvious after d1. I thought about making spring naive as well as paranoid, but that would be overstepping my boundaries as mod.

Well, you didn't have to. After Jebus's claim I auto censured myself into the assumption that I was paranoid since I didn't believe 2 functioning docs were possible in a setup this size. Had I known

I got distracted by too many shining things this game (second guessing the setup and my role, sekinj - god that was lame, I'm ashamed now).

RC's lynch was a turning point, sorry for not turning up but I didn't actually think the lynch was going to go RC's way as I thought his crumbs were quite readily readable and I wasn't too hot for Spolium lynch either. Though I'm not actually sure it would have saved the game as he probably wouldn't have tracked don a second time, which would have prolly provoked a situation in which RedCoyote's towniness would only serve to confirm Don's.

Anyway, good game scum, I think you guys actually navigated this one pretty well. Don's gambit just shows that town should never be soft hearted toward incompetence

[springlullaby]

Upon reflection I think Rhinox' play was pretty interesting and fun but had actually no chance of succeeding. Although my indecision the last day was motivated by kinda wanting to lynch Goat but not knowing, it would have taken tremendous balls to not lynch a claimed SK, and I think I wouldn't have had them in the end.

Also, I think I forgot to thank the mod for putting this together. It was a genuinely interesting game with suspense and hard decisions to make, and I have to admit one I felt kinda butt hurt about losing.

So thanks Tony, your modding was quite brilliant, especially considering that people (ok, me in particular) put you through some tough shit