The Manor: Chzo Mafia (Game Over!)

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/confirm

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4 more >_>

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IT'S THE FINAL COUNTDOWN!

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Lamont you stole my thunder! I wanted first post.

Vote: Lamont_Cranston

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Pimp and Ho.. I see a connection here! We have a pairing!

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I don't like the insolent tone a ho is taking with a pimp. I sense ho's roleclaim to be fake!

Unvote
Vote: hohum

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Clearly he was being too verbose.

Unvote
Vote: Sironigous

Somebody with your vocabulary should've known that. Scum trying to appear smarter than they are!!!!! >_>

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Maybe I want to vote everybody on Day 1?

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Oh.. I was wondering who the hell you were referring to when you were talking about Ed, then I realized that you're taking my name into two parts.... /headdesk

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No, actually it's Scott.... Think of Amished like Ambushed or something >_>

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Dammit.. that's not how I wanted a title...

Unvote
Vote: Pyromaniac

Feel better?

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I don't know whether to laugh or cry at these last... 10? posts.

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Sad times then, it'd be nice to have people weigh in so I can stop voting for every other person that comes around...

About those 10 posts: I decided to laugh until I cried, so I get the best of both worlds!

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Welcome Steph.

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I'm sure that the shoe size can be googled or something...

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Passive aggressive maybe! ... >_>

Anyways, between the pimp and hohum: I understand not liking the RVS (I don't either), but everyone still has to start to weigh in or post *something* before we can really get out of it imo. To just rush through it and not have quite a few people contribute a single word other than confirm isn't that "noble" an effort, for lack of a better phrase.

Hohum: Why are you so worried about Lamont's vote/feel the need to comment on it?

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It's just cause you're old..

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Both a no-lynch and a mass claim are detrimental to the town at this point though, as far as I'm concerned. We've brought up the No-Lynch topic (I believe, otherwise I'll copy-paste basically the exact same argument I've posted in another game I'm in). Mass claiming can easily out town power roles or force townies to lie if they don't want to be pegged as a power role (still bad). To even think about bringing either suggestion up is a terrible idea.

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Or it's blood (Chzo theme) and they die from poisoning sometime or turn evil or switch alignments if they're not already aligned with Hohum...

If you give it to somebody else to drink, are they forced to drink it, or is it more of a giving to them type of thing?

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That's pretty backstabbery bastardized. Stupid fumbling around in the dark for the lightswitch instead of being around to try to take the decanter >_> So what if I'm scared of the dark!

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It's times like these that make me want to try to outguess the mod. However I don't think anything I'll say will really be productive.

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@Xtoxm: If you think it'll make you lose your vote for today, why would you offer to drink it?

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Our luck it's the button to blow the house up and leave the evil alive. Sounds scummy to me >_>

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I believe the post was edited after hohum got it Sajin >_>

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I guess I'm of the opinion that if xtoxm wants to take the risk, he might as well drink it. Either he's like a townie with a less powerful role and doesn't feel that important, has a role that helps prevent bad things from happening (nk's, dayvigs, whatever) or a gambling scum. Either way with something you don't know the effect of it might be worth it to try on a volunteer.

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Sajin, you're basically asking him to outguess the mod for something that's a 50/50 chance anyways. The only way I see this going is you trying to crucify hohum for it later on no matter what which is definitely anti-town. What are you really trying to accomplish here?

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EBWOP: In fact, the more I think about it:

Unvote
Vote Sajin

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We're not even 50% sure. It could give you info but make you go silent for the rest of the day. Or just make you go silent. We have no idea what it does, nor will we find out beforehand. Trying to outguess the mod will not benefit us in scumhunting. In any way.

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EBWOP: Besides, how do you propose we find out if anybody is mafia or not with any certainty. ......../facepalm

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I think you're misreading. *I'm* not 50% sure, and I don't care to wager on the effects as I'd probably be as wrong as anybody. Kratos said the 50% sure that I think you're referring to. I was presenting the possibility that it could be both detrimental and beneficial, further leading to my point that trying to guess what it does is pointless and detracts from the overall objective of finding evil.

The problem with your statement is that most other public abilities have a known result. A gun found with a single shot, obviously a dayvig and has a predictable outcome. A used bulletproof vest, 1 night protection, a predictable outcome. We have *NO IDEA* what the hell this potion/wine/whatever does, and is impossible to guess. Therefore, it's pretty damn hard to determine anything from that as you're just as likely to harm the person that you're giving it to as to help them. Therefore, motivations are damn near impossible to glean from this situation. With you trying to, when I view it to be both pointless and distracting is the reason I both disagree with you about this case, and why I'm voting for you.

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So you're ok with something that you don't care to speculate on (so therefore you admit that it *can* be very bad) and to allow that to go to somebody that potentially might balance the town side due to randomness? (since even in the flavor/sign-ups the mod said that this game is probably not going to be that fair to the town) I prefer not to take chances in a closed setup that's somewhat bastardized already, and probably balanced somewhat against the town, just judging from my knowledge of the x games a stranger series.

Another question: What happens in the case that we give it to the volunteer, if they do guess/know what the effects of the potion are? We then all find out (probably) what the effects of the potion are, and if the effects are that good, would you not then have a target for suspicion? If the effects are then good, and then are used in what we can all agree to be a pro-town way would that not also be good?

Do you just have something against xtoxm getting the potion? In all cases, I'm still failing to see a good form of logic out of you.

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@Hohum: 254 (which you quoted) was directed at Sajin in 252, not you in 253. Might make things more clear. I was continuing to scoff at his suggestions, and actually agreeing with you.

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First off, @TAJO: read the drop post again.

This is the first

randomised

item drop of the game.

IT IS NOT BALANCED TO BE PRO-TOWN OR ANTI-TOWN. It is a random drop, probably from a list of potential drops that might come throughout the rest of the game. Therefore your statement that it's pro-town is overly optimistic. While items can make the game swingy, who's to say the next one won't make it swing the other way, or bring it back. Or that item be neutral, and one of the next will reduce the effects of an earlier item?

On a theme note: Who here has played/watched the chzo/x days a stranger series to be relatively familiar with them? I've played them once, and I'm trying to remember something from the 2nd? game I believe.

This isn't italicized/red for mod color, nor green for a mod request so hopefully this won't be a problem....

Unfortunately, since I've been gone all day I've missed a fair amount (which I'm kinda glad for since we're all being active (gj guys and gals)). The way I see it, the only people that should be relatively unafraid of the decanter are VT's (or weak pro-town PR's) or people that know the effects. Therefore I do not want to risk our power roles as we almost certainly have more than mafia, and I disagree vehemently with any random force of drinking the liquid. Another side point that I wanted to make here: not choosing to drink it is a null-tell in my book. I can see both pro-town and pro-scum motivations for not drinking it. While I believe it to be a null-tell for not wanting to drink it, I feel it's a *very slight* townie tell to volunteer, while anti-town to force people to drink it.

@Sajin: I didn't think Lamont's position was that muddled. He likes having a majority weigh in on somebody scumminess/proof of role (lynching), but is wary of one person being manipulated or not seeing the whole picture. Especially in this case, where the results are an unknown quantity.

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@Sajin: It's not for Naomi's thoughts (while I do find you to be scum), but I defend those who have *CRAP* arguments put against them. Everything I've pointed out that you've said should have been reasoned out/read a little more fully imo. Lamont's position was crystal clear to me in this most recent case. I felt your position against hohum was unreasonable as well (making him try to guess whether it'd be beneficial or detrimental, when I clearly don't think that we can). You've also miscredited me with a quote (the 50% thing) and all of this add up to somebody that's not paying attention to the game and/or not thinking about it. I think a more common pattern than me "defending" Lamont is me criticizing your arguments and apparently playstyle.

Furthermore, I was talking about the uncertainty of the effects, when we have no evidence one way or another to decide on what the potion will do. Millers, bus drivers, commuters, they're all *predictable* yet uncertain. This decanter fails the predictable part of those situations. Lynches are often predictable things (if not *always* the role of the lynch, though it can be sometimes with a cop result or whatever), especially if it's not under the imminent shadow of a deadline. With that you can judge the wagoners/voters much more clearly, further dividing the rift between the two situations. Either way, there's still an amount of certainty with a lynch: you can be certain they're going to die (except in the rare and obvious case of unlynchable). That effect can overall have a positive outcome on the town, even if the person was a townie. Getting rid of a scummy looking player, a lurker, or confirming a roleclaim are all pro-town outcomes from a townie lynch. There's easily much less uncertainty in a lynch than giving a random person (that you suggested to do) a random effect, while on top of that not having anybody be accountable for the action. Hell, a dayvig is less uncertain than doing this.

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Then I suggest that you make your statements a bit more clear, Sajin. At that time I thought it would either be good or bad (not a *potential* combo of both). Therefore, since we don't know what it does, it's just as likely to be good as bad, no? Your logic is still bad.

And you don't know if a dayvig/serial killer(well, this one is debatable )/jailkeeper/paranoid gun owner/whatever is in the game. What the hell is your point? As soon as they claim if they're in the game, we can deduce their past and future actions from it, while also having it fit on a predictable course. Taking this is a one time deal. We do not know what's in it, we'll most likely never have an opportunity to use this exact thing again, so it's both random and unpredictable.

So you're asking me why I want to throw away something that *could be* verifiable, when it *could be* unverifiable, while it also *could be* very bad, more likely to hit town than scum (probably no matter what method we use), and if we do use it randomly we *could* lose a town power-role. Who's to also say that it won't hit scum, be beneficial, but all they get is a PM and they can either lie about the contents or make it appear more pro-town when they're obviously not.

However, with 5? people that either volunteered or supported forcing it on somebody else, I'm not as against having somebody drink it voluntarily as I was before. It's possible that all of the volunteers are scum, but I highly doubt it. In that case, I view it as something selectively random. While I don't trust anything in a Chzo theme, it could very well be beneficial (I'll be the first to admit that I don't know what it does). Therefore with the chance that it's beneficial, and that I don't believe all the people volunteering to drink it are scum it's a fair chance to help the town, while also leaving the chance if any scum are there to still help the town.

Finally, would you be willing to drink the decanter voluntarily?

@Pablo: I realized what I was thinking of: In the hotel one Trilby took pills (not any sort of drink) to keep things "normal". I had taken a more overall view to the series, and not just focused on the first one in the manor. Even on the ship, people were possessed, and while everyone saw blood, nobody ever really drank it. There isn't much precedence in the series for this, so it'll be more of a mod creation.

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Umm, I'm not seeing your Wiki, Lamont >_>

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.... way to be useful Steph.

I click on my wiki link, it takes me to my page. I click on yours Steph, and it says you're male. I click on Lamont's and it says it doesn't exist yet.

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Ok, this might clear things up a bit:

Do I believe that there are more townies than scum? Of course.
Do I know what the decanter does? No
Being Chzo theme, do I see a definite bad outcome from drinking the liquid? Yes
With the bad that's very possible, and more likely to hit Townie on a random vote, would I want a random number roll? No

Anyways, it seems more likely that this is supposed to balance the village in a detrimental way.

Care to elaborate? Does this mean that you think it'll help the side opposite to who takes it?

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Look at these. If you made the town overpowered it would be easier to balance through detrimental ways.

But that's the rub still. The town is most likely underpowered (#13 in the rules), and not going to be easy. With 3 of your outcomes being "bad" compared to 2 good, I see it being harmful for the town if we go with a random roll.

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Yes, but without the code tags Pyro.

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Well, it also depends on what the item is. Something like taking a hat would be beneficial, or perhaps a book. Though mysterious liquids generally have a negative connotation outside of just chzo theme.

*IF* we decide to go random (and I'm overall against it), here's mine:

Original Roll String: 1d19

1 19-Sided Dice: (12) = 12

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371: Agreed. Pablo = suspect #2.

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Mod: Can we get a votecount?

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In that game, you still touched the welder stuff to be possessed. That or that piece of wood that came from the slave ship. It's been a while, I'd need to go through them again. But I was suggesting things like trilby's hat might be like a cop role, or the book trilby used to bring the welder "to life" and then have people have stuff of the relatives to actually kill it. Items were necessary and beneficial to escape from the house and to keep the evil at bay for however long, while also helping to find clues to continue the game (same as any detective game).

However I don't recall trilby drinking coke, and even then it was slightly harmful judging by your description. The only thing "positive" that happened from getting rid of liquid was the empty swimming pool where trilby found that underground stash thing.. It's been way too long since I played those games.

I don't see the reasoning behind xtoxm's statement. I'd lean more towards having knowledge of the liquid, which can be either town or scum. With the possibility of losing powers/dying, I can easily comprehend why a pro-town role wouldn't want the item used.

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Note: http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p ... 383BBD885B is a full playlist of the manor game, and the player has a full playthrough of the other two "true" games in the series (I don't consider trilby's notes to really be in the series as it's stealing the trilby character and not having anything to do with chzo).

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Also: it was enough just to touch the item in the game (and it was an idol, not *just* a piece of wood that made you want to kill people). Therefore we also have to watch hohum "tonight". One thing that I forgot about, was that salt played a relatively important role, so not all "food" is bad. A piece of meat also helped get past an obstacle in the trilby's notes game.

Unfortunately for us, Lamont in 377 and Pyro's 388 are correct, but hohum is v/la so I doubt we'll reach any consensus and especially not talk about the decanter since it's become such a large part of the game.

AFAIK, there's not much (if any) precedent to drinking something in the "normal" reality in the series and having the result be good though. Like I mentioned before, Trilby took some pills in the hotel (actually was the trilby's notes game, I was thinking about a different trilby game that wasn't part of the storyline) to shift from the terrible reality with the welder and corporeal evil to the normal reality. I'm looking for something in the trilby's notes game right now, be back to report it soon.

Ah, ok, nevermind then. In the trilby's notes game, Trilby (the protagonist) drank water to bring himself from the bad reality to the normal one. However, with what I remembered about the OBA (order of blessed agonies, see next paragraph) I'd be wary of those volunteering as they're necessarily evil and would probably know the effects of some of the items.

If this game follows the series kinda at all (which I believe it does) we also have to be aware of the Order of Blessed Agonies. It's like a cult that worships basically the scum. Forgot about those guys. This raises xtoxm up on my list as he has always been eager to drink the liquid. It very well could be beneficial for the cult to suffer (name and their role in the game both suggest it), and for the water to be harmful to the town benefiting the cult. The "evil gods" of the the game (the prince and chzo) would likely be immune to anything that happened as not even shooting them had any effect as evidenced by the game.

With that, I *strongly* suggest disposing of the container altogether.

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lol welcome back to the manor AJ....

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Mod: Please prod NuevaVida

I'm also calling out URoEveryone. Post something substantial. I realize you *had* problems with your computer/whatever, but the 20 hours that you said you'd have something has gone about 20 hours ago.

Xtoxm: Lynching D1 is nothing like giving a random person a random effect. Votes pile on due to inactivity, scummy behavior, whatever. A random person getting the decanter behaves nothing like a lynch. What connection do you have between not giving a random person a random effect and not lynching anybody?

Also:

Like I said, I suspect this item will be detrimental to the player regardless of their alignment. The mod said we are meant to think in this game. I don't know anything much about Chzo, but alcohol is a reasonable guess. Alcohol could, like I said, lose someone their vote today, or maybe count as roleblock tonight. I seriously doubt it would kill someone.

I can't think of how drinking a liquid like that would be much of a good thing for anyone who drank it.

I cannot comprehend why any pro-town role would not want this item used.

...... Do you just misunderstand yourself or what? You suspect it would be detrimental to whoever drinks it, but you can't think of any reason a pro-town player wouldn't want to drink it? Yes, all pro-town people want to become weaker.../sarcasm.

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@Steph

, are you a big fan of blind vig-killing on the first day?

hopefully everyone is

What possible protown motivation is behind this? Seriously.

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Which "noobie quiz" are you referring to, AJ?

@Xtoxm: The game we were in together the longest was newbie 694, where I was the doc. That was also my first game, and I've completed 3 more, been NK'd/lynched in 4 more. The other one that we've had together you replaced in on Day two after I did. You thought I was a bit more townie than I was, and I ended up being lynched that day (as scum) and you were NK'd that night. Both cases you saw me in a non-D1 scenario, and in the first case, I was at my noobiest. Please, point out to me a solid D1 meta that you can really construe into being scummy.

@AJ: A *random* vig, especially D1 before any mislynches can occur (say 1/4th of town is scum/anti-town) is then therefore 3x as likely to give information that a person is protown (with a chance of hitting a pro-town powerrole), and then they'll no longer be available to help the town rather than hit a scum. Directed D1 vigs are another story, and I have no problem with those. Even a reasoned out day1vig without outside interference I have no problem with as long as the reasoning and vig appear to have pro-town motivations.

Further delving into the Chzo theme, everything is rather gruesome and brutal, with a lot of supernatural happening. Until I thought about the Blessed Order of Agonies (a rather *huge* part of the Chzo experience), I was leaning towards a volunteer taking the potion if they felt the risk was worth it. I would disagree with them vehemently, but as it was not my choice I could only argue against drinking it and not be happy with them taking it.

However, with the BOoA that I feel is likely to be in the game, the order would have knowledge of various Chzo related artifacts, and they could very well volunteer to drink something that they know the significance of just to fulfill part of their win condition, help the Evil in some way, or perhaps make it easier for them to recruit into their cult (all anti-town outcomes). All of these guesses are reasonable just based on knowing the games and the objective of the cult. I don't even consider this outguessing the mod, it's taking stuff from the theme that the game is based on, and applying it to a likely situation here. Therefore I'm now trying to give out what I think about the game, correlate that with what I know about the theme, and give caution because of what I do know about the theme.

Xtoxm's rush to grab/drink/take the decanter is what has me worried, as it does seem like a thinly veiled attempt to get something with known effects to him. Your (AJ's) posts seem to be more information oriented, so if you want to drink the liquid, you would probably be my top candidate as your posts and stance seem solely dependent on information, and not blind rushing into it, while I also find your stance on the liquid the most reasoned out compared to the others. Your stance seems to be against what I feel a BOoA stance would be, negating that. I still wouldn't want to drink the potion, but if you want to take the risk, I still disagree with you, but I have no power to stop you.

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EBWOP:

Only scum want items going to waste.

I disagree. I feel the scum would have more of an inkling as to some of the effects of various artifacts/items around and would base their opinion off of that. If it was a good effect, they'd want to take it for themselves/their scumpartners. If it was a bad effect, they'd want the town to take it. If unknown, and then now taking into account my stance on how I think it's bad, I'd still want a townie to take it. I find none of these really match up with wanting an item to go to waste.

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Xtoxm's rush to grab/drink/take the decanter is what has me worried
*snip*

Amished,
are you implying you think other people have inside information about the decanter or items in general?

Yes, themewise in the game that this is based off of, there's a religious cult (Blessed Order of Agonies) that exists for the sole purpose of bringing Chzo (a God of Pain from another dimension) to this world. They have extensive studies about Chzo and the artifacts surrounding bringing him to our world. They're a major part of the x days series that this is based on, and I see no reason why they wouldn't be included here. So I am saying that it's highly likely that they would have knowledge of any artifacts related to Chzo. While they might just be construed as the scum for the purposes of this game, they might also be a cult, giving us another worry.

Of course, this particular item might not have anything to do with Chzo and they're as much in the dark as we all are, but I still take more stock into having a faction or at least one player that knows what the items do.

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Building on Lamont's 432: We don't even know if *we'll* get information out of it. It could be just for the player and they're forbidden to talk about it. Or give them something that will affect later actions, without being told. There's still no guarantee that we're getting any information out of somebody drinking this at all.

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Well, there were always only 6-9 (depending on your counting methods) people in the mansion, and for this game to have 19 (had 23 but 4 were cut out) people it almost has to have people from throughout the series.

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(Naomi is a girl, I know her IRL)

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Devestation: I think what AJ was trying to say was that the top voted/"randomized" (even though it then wouldn't be randomized..) should have a chance to refuse. Of course, that doesn't make anything random, but I don't know if AJ ever really advocated for a random dispersal, just using it? I'm not sure right now and I don't know if I'm sober enough to check >_>

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People keep relating not using an unknown effect item to a no-lynch. I really want to see a solid reasonable connection between the two, because I feel that they're *nothing* alike.

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@Devestation: I hold the same viewpoint, however you can't not drink it if Hohum decided to give it to you. So we're basically tying you down screaming. Now if this was a European mature movie, that might not be so bad. Unfortunately, we're in a manor with evil trying to kill us all.

I don't *think* that there's any sort of liquid that people really drink, or something found to drink other than the water that I talked about earlier. In the game, that was a puddle formed by like a leaky pipe or something, and nothing formal like anything in a cup. My project right now is to watch the playthroughs of them again and make sure though. If there is a precedent or anything to compare it to it'd probably be in the trilby's notes game (possibly in the flashback to the inn, which is where I'll be looking first). There's nothing that I can think of in the first one in the manor, nor in the future/space, nor in the underground complex that I know of at the moment.

@Naomi: So you think that using the decanter will narrow down our choices as scum, either by killing somebody, or doing some effect to make them pro-town. You've stated before that it really is up to Hohum how he uses it, but lynching/not lynching is purely an overall opinion by the town by nature. But even then, you're more of the opinion that it is a kill type mechanic, and therefore should go to somebody scummy looking. Another thing: who knows what the next item will be? Perhaps it'll be a shovel, or a painting, or a ring, or a twig, or whatever. The nature of the item can also give us clues, while having a mysterious liquid gives us nothing really to work on.

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I'd have to check to make 100% sure, but the wine bottle was used to hold the water to keep Trilby "safe".

@Lamont: I have never played nor read a game of tajo's so I have nothing to compare his style here with anywhere else. I commented on the blue section, saying that it was outguessing the mod (in an indirect way) since I pointed out that the drops were randomized and therefore could not be guessed to be not *that* bad or whatever.

@Devestation in 464: Bingo!

@Sironigous: If hohum uses it on his own, how does Naomi have any misdeeds to wash her hands of in the first place? She isn't deciding what to do with the decanter so there's no "deed" ascribed to her. Therefore if it turns out bad, it won't be *her* misdeed, it'd be hohum's.

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@Tajo: read rule 13 again.

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EBWOP:

Also @Tajo: Which is why I said not wanting to drink it is a null-tell. I can make inferences by who does want to drink it, but nothing that will be that solid, or explained solely by alignment.

@Xtoxm: I think a pretty large majority would say that this item is most likely detrimental, wouldn't you? If that's the case, what do you look for in a candidate to give it to if you had it?

[Amished]

@Xtoxm: How about a scummy looking volunteer? Somebody that people have the most doubts about them?

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I agree that we might not specifically not want to lynch the person who drinks it, as it could be beneficial/change how we view the game, especially regarding the person who drinks it. Personally I disagree with giving it to the person with the highest votes. Even though that I believe that the potion is more likely to be harmful, I won't just discount the fact that it could be beneficial. To then give it to somebody that a number of people view as scum would then not turn out to be that great of an idea. When I mentioned a scummy looking volunteer in 477, I was thinking of somebody somewhat scummy, maybe not the top scummiest person on most peoples lists, but somebody that people have a suspicion (and therefore opinion) about, while them also possibly looking a bit more scummy so that if it is harmful like I believe then it'll still be beneficial to harm somebody scummy looking. (It's somewhat convoluted, but if anybody needs me to clarify anything, please ask).

@AJ: Clearly I haven't, and without being pointed to it *ever* I don't see how I would've come across it. I don't see how a N0 vig is beneficial more often than it's harmful. Perhaps after the game we can discuss this in one manner or another, or right now if you think it's that relevant to what we're doing. I've heard of just as many cases where a vig doesn't shoot N0 as they do shoot somebody then, so from that the jury is still kinda out in my eyes. Unrelated note: Happy Birthday.

[Amished]

I think it's more likely to be harmful than beneficial, but since I have no idea whether or not it will be either (a slightly off center in the good/bad). Then if the decanter goes to an off center player, it's still in line with what I feel about the decanter.

Good effect: |-------------------\-----| Bad Effect
Town player | ------------------\-----| Scummy player

(Trying to show that they'll kinda line up.)

I'm trying to get the best of all worlds here. If it's harmful, it'll be on a more scummy player without immediately getting rid of a top lynch candidate and forcing us into an uncomfortable situation come deadline (if it goes that far). If it's helpful, it's then not going to the scummiest player out there and it's more likely that somebody *not* as scummy (therefore slightly townie) will then have the effect rather than the top lynch candidate.

@Nyx: My candidate probably wouldn't exactly line up with everybody else's though I'd be willing to take ~3rd-6th scummiest player in my view. I haven't made a list like that yet so I'd have to go through everybody. Also, we haven't heard a whole heck of a lot from some of our players which would be helpful in generating that list.

[Amished]

@Lamont: If as many people thought that using the decanter was useful, I assumed I wasn't seeing something. Same with the vig n0 argument, and that's about as bad as it gets (I highly doubt that it'll switch alignments. So, if I view us to use it to the benefit of the town, even if negative effects I think that the negative effects should go to someone more scummy. Hopefully town power roles aren't acting that scummy to fall into my range, so then they'd be rather protected. I'm just giving an example as to how I would use it and provide my logic for said action. While Hohum is away, I seem to find that right now is the best time to try to discuss uses and then he can come and decide or take a majority opinion.

(btw: I do want to see the logic behind a n0 vig kill being more pro-town than anti-town eventually).

[Amished]

Well, you could find an old gun without ammo, while having half the town get a bullet during the night. the old gun had an obstruction in it and bam, backfire and die. or barrel was slightly crooked and you shoot the person "to the left" or something. Either way, nothing will probably be quite what it seems. Also, speculating about what specific items will come up later seems like a great time-waster, but not something that should really be done.

[Amished]

Thank God hohum will be back tomorrow.

[Amished]

I agree that it shouldn't go to a lurker.

My list (in order) would be:

Nyx
Shadow Knight
Pyro
Tajo

[Amished]

EBWOP: Welcome back hohum

[Amished]

That and my top candidate is

Nyx

[Amished]

I went through and did a read of each person in isolation. When I went through yours, especially early on (up to ISO 11) it was mostly active lurking, you being here but not really posting anything of substance. You had a discourse on how to do a random dice roll, but it wasn't posting an opinion on anything. Your discourse in 12 was summarily noted to contain no stance other than we can't outguess the mod, and now you're FoS'ing (not necessarily a bad thing, as I don't feel self-voting in this matter should be accepted either) for reasons that other people have given. You're around "enough" (not really, but ok) to make you active. You also haven't said anything necessarily anti-town, but you haven't said a hell of a lot either.

[Amished]

>_> I believe Lamont is referring to the people that said not using items was like a no-lynch D1.

My opinion was that it's not similar at all, and Lamont seems to agree with my viewpoint on the matter as well. That's who he was targeting with that comment I'm pretty sure.

[Amished]

EBWOP: Heh, seems like I was right.

[Amished]

@Dev: Judging from the first drop post, the drops will be randomized so there won't be a deliberate getting used to items to then have one screw with us.

[Amished]

Amished, out of curiosity, is your name "Amish Ed", or is it "amished" like a past tense verb?

Like a past tense verb -_-

[Amished]

Because Amishscott isn't nearly as cool as Amished.

BTW: I hate Sajin's 628. Unless there's a clear indicator of sarcasm/joking in the post (there is none) saying something is a joke later is a huge scumtell in my eyes.

[Amished]

AJ is right here too. Pyro is climbing up my scumladder mighty quickly.

[Amished]

Mod: I might be in and out til about Sunday, sorry for the absence

[Amished]

Lately I've seen multiple things from both Lamont and Pyro that raise my suspicion of both. Depending on the situation, I might do that at the end of this post.

@Hohum: What have you seen from Pyro/Lamont that make you want to lynch either one of them? Other than your back and forth, of which I also feel that the emotion given and arguments made

@Naomi: I disagree with your statement that Lamont was trying to steer the town. For the longest time he was agreeing with me that it shouldn't be used no matter what (and in a somewhat fearmongering way, I'll get to that with my more in depth analysis of LC), but when he flipped his opinion to that it should be used, he went around pressuring everyone to vote. He attacked those that weren't, and Nyx brought up an excellent point that the selective voting of it can be swayed easily by any evil factions that we may have.

My theory on Lamont is this: he's scum, that knows what this item does, and it's a positive effect. This is consistent with not wanting it used as it's more likely to hit a town-aligned player, and with .. steph? pyro? not sure exactly who at the moment first voting for him to take it because of his "extreme" playstyle. At that point, more votes were placed on him (probably scumbuddies), and Lamont was also increasing his extreme playstyle probably in an effort to cement himself as the recipient of the decanter.

Therefore, I would look most heavily on those who voted for Lamont to get the decanter, as I'd be pretty sure that the scum would want their buddy to get it (much like Nyx pointed out), and they'd most likely also know the effect of the decanter.

Unvote
Vote: Lamont_Cranston

Moving on..

@Pyro in 710:

I find this hypocritical. Your entire reasoning for voting for me is based on a few posts that would not have been made if it were not for the decanter. In this post and in other posts you appear to not like the decanter, say it causes regress in our lynching attempts.

What type of BS reasoning is this? Who cares what caused you to post, but the fact of the matter is that it came about and you posted. You're also avoiding the point of the quote you responded to. Hohum did not really participate in the debate about the decanter, so for him to comment on those who were trying to steer it is not hypocritical in any way. I believe it's a valid concern, especially as confusion heavily benefits scum more than town.

Going through Lamont's ISO, I'll point out some of the scummier things that I've seen, and I'll have the # listed for those of you that want to follow along.

0-32: Absolutely nothing of worth. 1 liners, mostly joking, and the one time he was confronted about his early game vote of Sajin, he still avoided really answering the questions posed to him with any real substance. (I also believe even in an RVS it was unnecessarily bandwagonish).

33: He nibbles at the no-lynch bait, when that wasn't the point of the post that he quoted. Both an attempt to put some weak pressure on another player and to try to earn himself townie points for pointing out something that everyone knows.

34: He only advocates a bandwagon on the two most scummy players. I find this concerning for several reasons;
1) Because in a game this size there's almost certainly more than two scum
2) Trying to form a bandwagon on two players gives him an out to avoid getting a partner lynched by pushing for the townie one
3) Splitting up votes will make it hard to really put any pressure at all on anybody. As rule #1 clearly states, if we don't have a majority lynch, there will be no lynch at all (bad for all the obvious reasons).

36-37: He posted and explained that he posted a lynch of under-active players, while also pointing out (not directly) that he avoided posting a list of players he thought were scummy (and hadn't gone on to post a list like that either).

39: He admits to attempting to steer the village in the direction of hunting scum, then goes on to point at the lurkers at the time again. He calls it unhealthy, but not scummy. He's still not really looking for scum... AT ALL.

43-45: He asks Nueva and Pyro what their requirements for a lynch are (probably in the hope of putting those requirements on a townie).

49: He goes back to attacking SK's "no-lynch" which we've already covered was not the intention of the post, and I thought it was rather obvious.

(RIGHT BEFORE 52 IS WHEN THE ELIXER/DECANTER THING POPPED UP, PUT IN HERE FOR REFERENCE)

55: First advocating of discarding the item (due to hohum not being scum with him).

(Ah, it was right in here that Steph thought that Lamont should drink it)

59:

The town doesn't need to drink a potentially deadly liquid of unknown properties to gain an advantage and it is foolish to do so.

First example of fear-mongering. No reasons really given to back up his statement of not giving it to the town, just saying it's "deadly" and "unknown", and to use it is "foolish". All of which are trying to spark a fear of not using it into a wider population.

62: One of his more adamant posts, all about thinking voting/forcing somebody to drink it is scummy.

69: Taking one of the most unlikely scenarios and putting it forth as continued fear-mongering. (His opinion that says that it'll turn a townie into a mafia player. Also note that he didn't consider/mention the alternative that it'd make a mafia into a town member).

78: Duplicates an earlier post that says giving the item to somebody is a total crap shoot. Oh, and something else to mention, that might be worth noting if/when Lamont dies: lynching people is *almost* (key word here) guaranteed. Casting a hammer to lynch somebody always ends in the person's death in normal games; though since this isn't a normal game and I believe Lamont to be scum he also has knowledge that we have a reviving mechanic, or unlynchable or something.

79: Continued looking at "semi-lurkers". This still isn't scum hunting nor producing helpful commentary to those of us still here. Ask for a prod if they're actually lurkers, or ask them questions to get them involved.

81: Explains his viewpoint about semi-lurkers. Says that he will pursue their lynch relentlessly, yet he's done nothing of the sort throughout the game.

82: Overexaggerating the general feeling of bastardization of the game. The mod has never stated that he "hates townies", while the overall message of the series isn't just death for the sake of death. Yes, it contains it, but that's not the overarching storyline.

(Skipping him continuing to fear-monger in the hopes that the item will be discarded for sake of my sanity and to keep this shorter)

101: Some god-awful mudslinging trying to pair xtoxm and aj together. I don't see any reasoning for this at all.

106: Now that there's some volunteers that are scum aligned, he's saying that continuing to volunteer is anti-town. There's probably a couple scum in the group, just to keep him safer to get the item to somebody he's aligned with.

111: Still fear-mongering against using it on a volunteer, and against randomization. Is in favor of giving it to a lynch candidate. That's still rather consistent with him being scum, as he could single out a scumbuddy and get the point across that they should be the one to act scummy and attempt to fall under enough suspicion to have Hohum give it to them. This can also be driven by scum, so it's not that pro-town of an argument.

116: And I quote:

Btw, anything short of village wide vote as a strong scum tell here.

Additional fearmongering to make everyone vote for who gets it. There can be any number of reasons to not want to vote, not just scum reasons.

119-123: He becomes one of the staunchest defenders of using it (specifically against Devestation's POV at the time).

124: Talks about "relatively high odds that random voting will hit a power role". I take this to mean that there's either powerful scum roles, or there's a good number of them. That would probably mean that the only way for it to remain balanced is to have more town PR's. A town PR would not be able to take this stance, as they'd really only know that they're a PR, and not other people's roles. Mafia would be able to come to the conclusion that there's probably a good amount of town PR's.

126: Another lurker list, while also stating that those not voting should be held up to scrutiny and should be lynched. This is still not scum-hunting nor reading people's reactions.

136: Changes voting stance again to make it a two tiered voting system. Will probably get scum in the initial group, and then the scum can probably vote for their buddy in the group as well.

140: This is a very minor thing: He quotes AJ to make him (Lamont) get the decanter, and makes it +scum. This flies in the obvious face of his stance that voting is pro-town, but it agrees with him being scum and giving a good-effects item to scum (which would be *positive* (+) to the scum: +scum)

154: Bad quote tags aside, SKnight brings up a good point. I haven't highlighted it specifically, but the whole time Lamont has advocated strongly against giving the decanter to a lurker. To then want SKnight to get it directly contradicts his position that he's been pretty adamant about.

Then you've all seen his recent exchange with Hohum, which I feel to be weak and the tone behind it is scared scum rather than a townie.

I've read a game (it was a marathon one) where one of the evil players was forced to use the devil smiley once a week. Lamont is the only one I've seen that has used it so far (once in iso 83, Friday the 15th; and once in iso 170 on Sat the 23rd). It could be a bastard mod thing where you need to use it once every 100 posts, but that's pure speculation and you can do with that knowledge what you will. (I believe the player was nominated for a scummy, best roleclaim or something? if you want to look it up).

[Amished]

@Pyro: So what's your point? He obviously caught you being scum because of your responses. You would've had to respond to something eventually, and you probably would've then been caught later. WIFOM'ing it up though severely muddied the waters and got everyone running in circles, which delayed the scumhunting. Now that Hohum drank the decanter, that portion of the day is over with and we can finally get back to really scumhunting again.

Besides, what does it matter how he caught you being scum?

[Amished]

So in your eyes, the contributions exist and you admit that the contributions led hohum to you. I'd say that turned out rather well then. There's still a lot of back and forth wifom that retarded scumhunting, no?

[Amished]

So you're arguing for the decanter discussion being helpful, but not defending yourself in any way. Great.

[Amished]

Tajo: I missed your coming back post, but basically Hohum drank the elixer/decanter thing himself, and I've posted a rather long case against Lamont. There are obviously more, but I feel those to be the two big points that came about recently.

One more thing now that I'm thinking about it: Even Lamont's continuous lurker lists are still IIoA, which is a pretty major scumtell as far as I see.

[Amished]

I fail to see the errors as you fail to point them out.

I daresay I was less fear-mongering than you ever were; I was giving examples from the games to defend my point rather than... oh, here's a nice quote:

how can you possibly want this item used if you are town??

(This is the original formatting, taken from ISO 86). I have voiced caution and given reasons why I thought the potion would be harmful. As I had done more research, AJ and xtoxm's analogy of vigging N0 is beneficial is something that I have come to agree with as well. As I never believed it would turn town into mafia like you stated, a death was probably the most harmful outcome that I could come up with. Therefore, even with what I considered to be the worst case scenario, I came to the new viewpoint that a death isn't always a bad thing. That is where I've stood throughout the course of the game, while you've been much more extreme on both sides of the debate. I'd hardly call you being more extreme than I have been makes me implicated in *your* actions.

I have also found your following of me quite concerning, and that builds off of what hohum has said too: you don't do much other than parrot other people's ideas. That, or misrep their position as you've been corrected on a number of times already. As scum, I've followed townies' opinions much like you have, so nothing you've said still makes me any less suspicious of you.

Defending/responding to a wall-post is never unnecessary, no matter how large it is. Dismissing it and flat out refusing to respond to the bulk of it is extremely scummy though.

Also dismissing an attack on you by attacking the person's playstyle is also scummy.

Finally, flat out saying lynching you D1 is an "epic village fail" both implies to me that you're not part of the village and that you don't really have a decent defense.

[Amished]

No. You saying you didn't want it used does NOT mean you aren't parroting anybody. You admit that your conclusion was the same, still holding the same belief as was said earlier in the thread. No, you were not the first to hold the opinion that the elixer should not be used.

Don't ditto me. You consistently tried to emotionalize and fear-whore the town into widely voting for hohum if he ended up using it. I brought up examples from the origin of the theme. You, on the other hand, did not.

I moved onto the view that we should use the item around page 21, and you disagreed with me then. After a while you then agreed with me again. We have not agreed every step of the way, and I find you trying to set me up to be guilty by you associating with me especially troubling.

I also don't follow how me stating that you're following me means you're not parroting. When people were talking about a random assignment, nothing was lead by you. I fail to see anywhere where you were leading the way other than being an extremist to whatever cause you decided to pick up.

From my perspective, people with holier than thou attitudes generally have inside knowledge, leading them to think that they're better than everyone. I suggest you defend yourself rather than attack a playstyle that you haven't had that much of a problem with up until now.

Nothing that you said even remotely lessened my suspicion of you, and you haven't even gotten to my large post where I have "many errors". Can we get this guy lynched yet?

[Amished]

No. You held the same opinion as others, and then both emotionalized whatever you were advocating for at the time and took it to extreme lengths.

Secondly:

Excuse me, but I totally switched my views once Xtoxm's theory was made clear to me.

Is you admitting you're parroting xtoxm's view.

You're also not disputing the fact that I did bring in outside information on which to base my opinion when you did not. Saying I'm blind to the facts doesn't change that I was right about my opinion or yours, while also is not addressing the point that said you were fear-mongering or emotionalizing your position at the time. Avoiding the topic = scummy.

Thank you for saying that I'm pro-town, as you know it's the case (additionally, thanks for clearly hohum for me scum). As to your views, you've said anything that you think would get you your way. I try to bring evidence and logic rather than emotion and fear to my discussion. That key difference is why your views are anti-town where I've been pro-town.

Finally: if his vote/case/whatever on you is that bad, it shouldn't be that hard to refute what he says. Yet you refuse because you can't. Just give up while you're at it.

[Amished]

Oh, like YOUR scumhunting? Let's see who you've all implicated or accused of being scum: just Pablo. Hell, you haven't even pushed that at all nor questioned him further. You haven't even looked at him again really

Your accusations towards SK have been bogus (cause you've really only attacked him for *mentioning* NLynch D1)

You never follow through with your FoS's, you put them out there, don't really question the player, and apparently soon forget them.

While you also extremify your positions saying that various things are scummy, but don't really go after those that do what you said was scummy either. One specific example:

Specific assignment from any individual or small group of individuals is terribly scummy as well.

I think Sironi is the best candidate and my vote is for him to get the elixir.

While also having many other people weigh in this way. You've not attacked/scumhunted them either. You're just a paragon of scumhunting. Especially lately, your FoS's are for the wrong reasons too, being corrected all the time like you are. I would've expected scum to really be more on top of things, and in this you disappoint me.

One more thing: I love how in ISO 162 you view steering to be scummy, but you've admitted to try to steer the town early on and have tried to steer the town into not using the elixer. Why are you not just voting for yourself so that we can get this ball rolling?

[Amished]

@Lamont: I didn't count any of your "red" targets as I felt your reasoning against them implicated you much more than it did to them. But sure, let's go with you mentioning him since ISO 83 (where you voted for him and haven't moved it from him since). Since then, you've said he was rolefishing 3 times, and that was all you brought up about him. You haven't pushed for his lynch beyond saying it was an obvious case (and now with steering the town) in the 100 posts between that. Really looks like you're trying hard to get *anybody* lynched.

The reason I brought SKnight up is that you've also accused him of role-fishing (and have FoS'd him twice, the first was for bringing up NL). Why the discrepancy between them if you felt SK was rolefishing? (FoS came in ISO 132).

Who is guilty of assignment of the elixir? For *pure* assignment, just Hohum assigning it to himself. However, several people have voted to give it to a specific person, including you which is why I quoted your elixir vote.

Also, the information is widely available, and the scum don't need me to bring it up for them. What help is that to them, though? My curiosity has been peaked. What possible use will that be to the scum?

BTW: I never steered the town, until I'm trying to steer everyone onto you as I've decided that I have scum right in my crosshairs. I've stated my position, and listened to others. I gave logic as to why I felt I was correct in my decision, and there was equally, if not better, logic for it's use which I saw. However, in this case I see a complete lack of logic from you, convincing myself further that I'm correct in my assessment.

---

LOL. My logic is being swayed by Steph? How do you figure that one? I was the one that brought it up, and I thought it might be relevant. After all this time, weeks that we've been in the game, and I *just now* decide to pick Stephoscope out to persuade because he had suspicions on a player. This is probably your worst argument yet.

The lack of promising not to post a devil sign (a very small thing and *shouldn't* matter in any way, shape, or form unless it's tied to your role and you'd be modkilled for it) just reinforces my belief that it is significant, and the only alignment that I can see needing or wanting to use the devil emoticon is evil.

@Steph: I obviously have no idea to how often the devil would need to be posted, but with it not falling within a week of each other (like the other) but it is falling within 100 posts (83 and 170 if I'm right just off the top of my head) and Lamont only being on 190 right now, I don't think it'd need to be that soon. Ironically, him posting his faulty defense short-posts would be driving him closer *IF I'M CORRECT ABOUT 100 POSTS BEING THE REQUIREMENT*. I don't know if there's another trigger that I'm not picking up on, but that's the one that came to me to fit the pattern so far.

Finally: @Lamont: if you hold the view that Nueva or Pablo should be lynched, post a case against them. You're still ignoring my first large chunk of my case against you, so why not give them the same opportunity?

[Amished]

I realize your vote is there, and it's been there for 110 posts (11 days if you want to go with real time).

Your response
A) Doesn't address my latest post
B) Doesn't post a case against either of them
C) Spouts off something randomly about the elixir, when it's obvious that the elixir has nothing to do with my case against you.
D) Still signals to me that you're not even reading my posts as in my 2nd sentence in 762 I said that you voted for him in ISO 83, and haven't moved it from him since.

[Amished]

Mmm, crossposting.

Yes, I admit that I'm steering the town to you, my scum. Nothing you've stated has refuted my logic, forcing me to believe it further. Now I also believe that you're trying to say anything that you can to try to make me be a lynch for tomorrow by you having "held the same positions as [me]".

For my arguments riddled with inaccuracies, you've also singly failed to point out many of them if they're that numerous. I've also explained why you are the scummiest target to me in ISO 78 of mine, where I go through all of your posts and point out what I don't like about a crapton of them.

(this next paragraph may be wrong, but I don't think it is) At the last vote count, only Sajin was voting for you. Since then, I'm pretty sure only Steph and I have voted for you. Explain how L-7 is harming the town irreparably.

[Amished]

Sigh, summer sucks. I'll be LA again over the next few days, hopefully I'll get a chance to weigh in from time to time, but don't expect anything overly insightful

[Amished]

Ok, back and posting in this before I head to bed. (Really sorry for my absence this week, nothing like this should really happen ever again for the duration of this game that I can foresee.)

Even though the item HAS hurt the town, it was necessary to prove your theory right or wrong. So I hold your theory as pro-town Xtoxm.

You cannot really believe that we'd see this as a pro-town point of view, can you? Rationalizing a theory (through bad logic) based on the result is an incredibly weak reason to give somebody pro-town points. I would further argue that it's helped the town much much much more than it hurt it. We have Hohum for 2 game days, and we know he's confirmed town; so your initial point is flawed from the get-go.

@Zwet: long time no see >_> Love the large games, don't you?

@Lamont (again) from 786: If you view people to be pro-town (one of which is you, so whatever on that count) and you suggest switching them, put out a case for the person you're voting for. It helps out a ton to see your full reasoning behind voting for somebody all at once, and perhaps show reasons why you view people to be pro-town.

@Set: Hi.

@The Replacement: Hi.

@Lamont in 817, 822, 824: I'm calling Bullshit on all of these. (Page 33 if anybody cares). Particularly I'm looking at 822 as attacking the person more than attacking anything that hohum has said.

@Sajin (840): Agree 100%.

@Lamont and Steph: FFS guys. Lamont, you're the one that keeps bringing up not using the devil sign. All you would need to do is say you won't use it and Steph will follow through on his side of it as he's right that there's no reason for him not to. LC definitely needs to take the first step in that exchange.

@Setael (931): The first part reads to me like you're saying LC was too scummy to be scum. I have a HUGE problem with that.

I also get big scum vibes from SK in 941. It was I who mentioned a post restriction from another game and thought it might be relevant. I wouldn't discount a possibility like that in this game and I view Steph to be in the right about the smiley, though I would like to see more from him speaking about everybody. However, what I feel is most telling is that SKnight finds it appropriate to vote Steph after both disagreeing pretty heartily (and for good reasoning) with Setael and then also saying Lamont is high on the scumlist for him.

I disagree heavily with a lynch on Stepho, and I don't see the case for Devestation either. Setael, SK, LC and to a lesser extent Pablo/Naomi would be my choices for a lynch today, and we do need a lynch. I'm hoping that the shell will just flat out kill LC at the end of the day, so I won't press that as much as I normally would at this point (or sooner if I had the time).

With that hope, as well as seeing Steph/Naomi both "tied" at 4 votes a piece and my view on Steph, I will

Unvote
Vote: Naomi_Saotome

Finally, @ LC: What math are you referring to in 977? I would not be against a lurker lynch if nothing really pops up, but at this point I'm not really seeing that happening.

Good night, and probably see you all in 8 hours to check in again.

[Amished]

Even though the item HAS hurt the town, it was necessary to prove your theory right or wrong. So I hold your theory as pro-town Xtoxm.

You cannot really believe that we'd see this as a pro-town point of view, can you? Rationalizing a theory (through bad logic) based on the result is an incredibly weak reason to give somebody pro-town points. I would further argue that it's helped the town much much much more than it hurt it. We have Hohum for 2 game days, and we know he's confirmed town; so your initial point is flawed from the get-go.

This is so hilarious as it is the SAME view you adopted!! Omgosh, I can't believe how bad your logic has become lately...

Bullshit that's the same viewpoint that I adopted. The way you wrote it said that it was a pro-town because it PROVED HIS THEORY RIGHT. I hold that it is and was pro-town before the effect, and that it helped the town much more than it hurt it. We now have a confirmed role without losing said role (much better than a claim). I also am of the stance that using the one item has proven his (xtoxm's?) theory about a battle of the items. One data point will never prove shit. Come up with a better theory about my viewpoint next time. Maybe a correct one.

Also, I outlined why Naomi is the one that I'm voting, and deadline situations like this (closest was L-5, which was Lamont) necessarily make my requirements for putting a vote on anybody much much lower. We NEED the information for a lynch, and she's the only one that had any significant amount of votes on her that I agreed with (that I don't hope will die due to the shell, or have an other significant effect).

Yes, Naomi, you should claim your role. Be it just plain innocent or whatever, we need to know what role you have in the game.

[Amished]

This isn't helping. Two of us (at least) are watching the thread very closely right now and if zwet is right, it *can* either lead to you being lynched or being at L-2. Or it'll just stay with you being at L-1.

[Amished]

What are your powers if you are indeed Trilby?

[Amished]

You said your 775 is the same viewpoint that I held. It is not the same as you put forth in 775 because I view it to be pro-town for different reasons than you do, and I further argue that your 775 "logic" is flawed.

1) Explain how using one item proves Xtoxm's theory.
2) I think that the item (while could've been better placed) still helped the town more than it hurt it that you stated in 775.

I can't get much simpler than that for you.

[Amished]

I want Naomi to paraphrase what her powers are. I will revote her if I don't think it's that believable, but I do want to hear what she has to say.

Unvote

[Amished]

Then I'm W2B you being clearer. His only "theory" was the battle of the items. He argued heavily for use of the item, but not on theory, but because of the usefulness of general knowledge. That never was presented as a theory, and I always viewed it to be an argument rather than a theory about this game.

With you saying that it "hurt the town, but it was necessary to prove xtoxm right or wrong", you can't even say that it proved him right or wrong, he was right or wrong without the item, so you didn't need to, and shouldn't have brought it up in the same sentence at all.

[Amished]

Trilby is the protagonist in 3? of the 4 games. So he's very much so a main pro-town character just out of the theme.

@Naomi: You're only NK-proof? That's all?

[Amished]

EBWOP: Main character in 2 games, I just don't like the last game, so I kinda forgot who was the protagonist there. The first two games he was the main character and the person that the player controlled.

[Amished]

Hmm, it just feels off to me I guess. In the games, Trilby (while also being a master cat-burglar) basically uncovered the whole mythos behind Chzo, so I would've expected an investigation or something else (maybe the ability to take an item if she wanted) *shrug*. Though the NK-proof makes sense lorewise, as the main character obviously had to go through the game without dying (not counting savepoints) to figure it out.

[Amished]

Yes, or if that was deemed too powerful, another lesser power (maybe like a psychiatrist or something mafia-role-wise.) To only have the *main character* be "bullet-proof" in mafia terms seems ... well, stupid.

[Amished]

One of my only problems is that there's plenty of explanations for not dying at night (bulletproof SK or being mafia and not killing yourself both come to mind as "typical" mafia roles).

[Amished]

Naomi feels genuine to me now, but I question why you didn't say that you had a 1-shot cop earlier.

My hope that LC dies because of the shell is still there, and we still do need a lynch.

Vote: Stephoscope

[Amished]

Or if Naomi is lying, the real trilby isn't around the thread right now as this is a very recent development.

[Amished]

We need information more than anything, and this will still give us a lot of information on what the scum have.

I claim a multiple-protection doc. I can protect myself. I refuse to state how many protections I actually have but it is more than one. One protection will prevent more than one kill if my target is attempted to be killed twice. With one of my protections I promise to protect the real Trilby if Naomi is lying and we lynch her (and is then proven to be the fake, otherwise we have a scum and I clearly won't protect them).

There. If I die or the real Trilby (in case of Naomi lying), the scum either have a roleblocker or a redirecter. This will get us the most information, and we can see if Naomi is telling the truth due to CC'ing by anybody.

Due to pm's between the mod and I, I have no reason to believe I'm anything other than performing like a normal doctor. I've already asked if protecting hohum on N3 will save him, and KoC stated that he couldn't reveal that information.

@Steph: That should allow a real trilby to come out if Naomi is lying, don't you think?

[Amished]

Also, AJ *is* voting for Naomi (ISO 8) and never unvoted. He's FoS'd Lamont, and voted for lamont to drink the decanter, but no "lynch" vote.

[Amished]

I get the feeling people missed my 1062 >_> Or don't believe me.

[Amished]

Which theory are you talking about then? BTW:

If you look at my post you will see I said not prove Xtoxm right or wrong but his dam theory!

So, his theory is right, but he's not proven right? You need better sentence structure.

Your failure to actually be clear with your statements isn't helping anything. Your "craplogic" or failure to read or whatever you have also didn't address the point that I was making that you and I did not switch for the same reasons, and you trying to pair yourself with me is something I absolutely hate.

*crossposted* Well, this won't get anybody anywhere anymore.

I wonder if he can't post throughout the game, or just for the rest of the day. If for the rest of the game, he can't vote either, which makes him rather worthless overall.

[Amished]

I guess that clears that up.

[Amished]

Just what I was thinking.

[Amished]

Unfortunately the mod is out for 2 hours.

Another thing: this does confirm that there can and will be posting restrictions in the game. Also, as I'm pretty sure Lamont now has to "argh" within a short period of dang near every post. To prevent the thread from being cluttered, I hope that if you decide to post you'll put the time into really posting something that you put a lot of thought into or view to be significant.

[Amished]

I also prevent any pro-town roleblockers or anything else we may have from targetting me. I'm trying to work with a balance of my knowledge of the theme (innocents in the manor game locked trilby up, so I'm assuming a jailkeeper type role on our side) and of the game. I don't know of anything *in the games* that signals a scum role being a roleblocker.

With the evidence that there is/can/will be posting restrictions, as I'm not under any right now, this seemed like a good time to claim. The information gleaned from both "clearing" (and I use the term loosely as it is mafia) me, allowing a real Trilby to come out if Naomi is fake-claiming without revealing any powers they might have, or allowing the real Trilby (Naomi) to avoid a lynch is all beneficial. Really the only bad part is *if* they have some bad type of role, and if I'm killed or one of my targets is, then everyone also still has information from the night actions and allows other PR's that we probably have to know that they have that capability too.

That is why I felt it appropriate to claim.

[Amished]

Well, if Naomi is Trilby (and with the confusing nature of her claim that could potentially lead to more votes on her) I feel that allowing a counter-claim (and if we don't get one) helps to avert a mislynch (even though it's not my own).

That and hopefully this game will allow you to see it being helpful, and I'll do my best to be useful.

[Amished]

Personally, I know that this is Naomi's first and only game (this is her first ever, as I introduced her to the concept of playing forum mafia, and she hasn't played Face-2-Face either AFAIK).

The way I read the situation is that she took role characteristics (NK-immune) and abilities (1-shot cop) to be separate from each other and only revealing the former and not the latter.

[Amished]

@Set: I don't have the ability to be unblockable. I just hoped that claiming (not particularly necessarily) would allow me to not be role-blocked by the rest of the town where I believe the blockers (if any) would be. I fully intended one of my protections to go to Naomi if there is no CC on her, and clearly one of mine would go to myself. That's not a problem at all. I will also say that I have at least one more protection, which I would prefer to keep to myself to try to thwart the scum if they go after others.

Apparently KoC didn't check to see if the players were in one game before, or assumed that Naomi was an alt. I thought she was in a Newbie game simultaneously with this one, but if you go to her profile and find all of her game posts, they're all in this game.

*crossposted with TR and Pyro*

TR, you nailed it, but even listing anybody further that I'd want to protect leaves them wide open to nail somebody that I didn't mention. I could lie and say I had protected other people on my list, but I don't intend to lie at all.

@Pyro: I'm Jonathon Somerset AKA the Gatekeeper. Along with Trilby, I'm one of the main guiding factors throughout the games. In the game, I'm more a prisoner of fate, having delivered myself a weapon to commit suicide so that I could basically become a ghost and travel through time to make sure that everything happened the way it was necessary so that Chzo didn't come to our world. This basically means that in the game, I arranged for a Trilby clone (debatable on whether it was the real one or not) to be taken by Chzo to save the rest of the world by keeping the God of Pain (Chzo) in the spiritual world (what happened in the last game).

The story becomes heavily convoluted when my character appears in the space game (6 days a sacrifice if I remember correctly, but it's the 3rd game).

I was also alerted to the fact that eventually the town will start to go insane, so to speak. To prevent the reality shift into probably a more "bastardized" version of the game probably favoring the evil faction more, I will need to give up some of my protections. In this regard, I view myself to be highly important, and if the scum have a roleblocker, I'm also hoping that we have another doc besides me, just in case. Since I have multiple protections at this point in the game, I can basically cover for another doc role so that if I get RB'd and targetted for a NK, I still wouldn't die. I'm almost always against directing a power role, but with the way the game looks to be set up to me, this is one case where I'm breaking that personal rule.

@Hohum/everybody: When hohum became confirmed innocent I wanted to ask him if he had flavor of somebody in game, or just a vanilla innocent pm. I held back as obviously that would've tipped off that I wasn't vanilla, and probably would've come under flak for that and not being able to prevent a mislynch on Naomi that it looks like so far.

[Amished]

How often do you know of that a Doc outs himself D1 to be able to work with another doc if one exists?

[Amished]

Of course I don't know if there's another doc. I do think (based on the games) that the scum is pretty powerful, and to be relatively balanced the town would also need to be able to have some powerful roles. Also, any other protective role would almost certainly not know about the future reality shift and not realize how important I really am.

[Amished]

Lamont, while you're here, I want to try to get your opinion on my claim. I know you can't talk directly, but here's what I propose so that we can still get your viewpoint on me at least.

If you don't believe it, could you unvote Naomi, Vote me, then since you feel Naomi is a better lynch, you could revote her.

If you do believe it, could you unvote Naomi, then revote her in the same post.

If you're not sure, could you unvote, I'll post just in case of a restriction that prevents you from posting more than twice in a row, then you can revote for Naomi.

If you don't want to or have left already, clearly you can just ignore it/not choose to vote/unvote/revote or anything.

[Amished]

Ok, so since you just unvoted, here's my post allowing you to post and vote whoever you feel is worthy. (I also take it to mean that you're not sure, which is understandable).

[Amished]

The clones only appeared in the final game of the series. They were made from the original Trilby to keep the welder inside where the manor stands. At the end of the game, when the main character of ... I think it was the 5 days game, but it happened I think around 2100 AD but anyways..

at the end of the game as many of them as were needed were created for the main character to explore the manor and save that character from the welder who killed one every new room you entered (and if you didn't have one the welder killed you and game over). I never thought about it before, but she could very well be a clone, what with her powers being weaker than I expected. Of course, there were literally hundreds of trilby clones in that game. I wouldn't *doubt* having somebody else also named trilby but perhaps with slightly different powers (many people being NK-proof seems a little over the top). But clearly I wouldn't know if there were more or not.

[Amished]

This is going to sound stupid, but I actually breadcrumbed Doc too.

I forgot about it because I *never* breadcrumb. This is literally the first and only game that I've ever breadcrumbed my role. I probably won't again unless it's an odd/challenging setup either. I did it in my large post against Lamont (which is what reminded me, I was trying to think of how else to ask questions to get his opinions on the happenings, and what questions would be relevant).

My large case against Lamont was my own ISO 78, and in that post I comment on his ISO 78.

78:

D

uplicates an earlier post that says giving the item to somebody is a total crap shoot.

O

h, and something else to mention, that might be worth noting if/when Lamont dies: lynching people is *almost* (key word here) guaranteed.

C

asting a hammer to lynch somebody always ends in the person's death in normal games; though since this isn't a normal game and I believe Lamont to be scum he also has knowledge that we have a reviving mechanic, or unlynchable or something.

My comments on this one are of slightly different tone (if anybody noticed) and it's because while it's still my opinion, I needed to contrive a way to spell out "DOC". Especially the last sentence was rather run-on for me, just due to the fact that I was out of letters, and I felt that spelling out Doctor over a very short post by LC would've been a bit too obvious.

[Amished]

I think there are 2 main points against him (Steph):

1) Lack of contribution/scumhunting. Take a quick look at him in ISO. He used the drink showing up as a distraction, and throughout the time we were all talking about the elixir he advocated for LC to take it, but did not really question other people's viewpoints or try to advance the game.

2) This also ties into #1, but is more specific. He took my possibility of a devil smiley being significant and being a restriction on scum only and used that to not really scumhunt either. While I'm still not convinced that the smiley *isn't* a restriction on LC (and that his new restriction due to the shell overrode/canceled out his old one) that's not the crux of my argument on LC.

There's kind of a 3, but it's almost directly implied in #1, and is the reason I don't mind voting for him. Lack of suspects. He's not posted a list nor gone into any detail about something he finds suspicious on his own. I find that to be a relatively common scumtell.

[Amished]

Tall man might be an SK (or two NK's for 1 group?). Two groups actually still lines up with probably a ~2 person scumgroup centered around the tall man and perhaps the welder. The other group is probably the order of blessed agonies, no clue as to how many would have to be in there to be balanced.

It was *not* me that helped Lamont, and he's correct, don't out yourself.

It *was* me that protected hohum, so apparently I can keep him alive longer as a confirmed town. Hopefully more analysis late tonight after I get off work.

[Amished]

@Naomi: I assume you used your 1-shot cop ability last night. In order to help verify your claim, would you please reveal the information that you received from that ability?

@Nyx/Lamont: If Naomi is the overall choice to be dayvigged, I ask that you allow me to post before actually going through with it for this day phase.

[Amished]

If the village decides to vig Naomi, I'd want to say that I screwed up due to not being used to un-NK-able players. My role PM says that my protections last the night and the following day, and since I forgot (literally) that Naomi was nk-immune, I protected her due to having a non-CC'd claim. I PM'd KoC and dayvigs or items with killing properties if picked up by somebody I protected will no longer kill. Other effects (probably *like* Lamont's posting restriction) will still take place, but dayvigs or items that kill won't work. Since I stupidly protected Naomi, a dayvig will *not* work on her. If you want to test it, fine. If you want to use a dayvig and actually kill somebody, I'll admit to using some of my protections on both hohum and Naomi. Neither dayvig will work on either of them. I don't want to see something so potentially useful wasted. Like I said, if you want to test my ability, gfi. Otherwise use it on somebody that will actually die from a vigging.

My protections don't affect lynch numbers though, nor protect against a lynch. Just vigs/mod(item) kills.

I do apologize, though I probably wouldn't have protected either of the NK's last night, so it didn't really matter because of that.

I do want to point out that since hohum's life was extended for a day (and I lived), they don't have a roleblocker (either faction/player in the case of an SK). I will be safe and be able to prevent the reality shift when that happens as I'll use one of my protections on myself for sure until that time just help out the most.

[Amished]

We need information more than anything, and this will still give us a lot of information on what the scum have.

I claim a multiple-protection doc. I can protect myself. I refuse to state how many protections I actually have but it is more than one.

One protection will prevent more than one kill if my target is attempted to be killed twice. With one of my protections I promise to protect the real Trilby if Naomi is lying and we lynch her (and is then proven to be the fake, otherwise we have a scum and I clearly won't protect them).

There. If I die or the real Trilby (in case of Naomi lying), the scum either have a roleblocker or a redirecter. This will get us the most information, and we can see if Naomi is telling the truth due to CC'ing by anybody.

Due to pm's between the mod and I, I have no reason to believe I'm anything other than performing like a normal doctor. I've already asked if protecting hohum on N3 will save him, and KoC stated that he couldn't reveal that information.

@Steph: That should allow a real trilby to come out if Naomi is lying, don't you think?

Nice reading skillz Lamont. I'll go so far as to say that Ho and Naomi are *not* the only people that I protected too.

If it is a dayvig item, and if, through town discussion, we decide to target anybody else I protected, I shall let you know. I will not look kindly upon fishing for how many protections I do have either. Pick one and make it a good pick.

[Amished]

BTW Lamont: Overall, it makes sense that I'm more powerful than Trilby. Especially in the conclusion of the last game, it's pretty obvious that the whole time Trilby is a puppet of fate, where my character helps to make sure that whatever is supposed to happen happens. Through a time paradox type action, I was able to send myself a knife in prison (after telling myself to kill my father so that I could meet the welder) so that I could kill myself and then guide Trilby to the sites of the welder/prince while also making sure that the world was safe from Chzo.

It is literally impossible for me to lie about how important my character is in the series. I can see doubting of my roleclaim (just because it is mafia and people lie) but if I am who I say I am, I *am* that damn powerful.

@Steph: One problem with your theory on how to win the game.

I was also alerted to the fact that eventually the town will start to go insane, so to speak. To prevent the reality shift into probably a more "bastardized" version of the game probably favoring the evil faction more, I will need to give up some of my protections.

I will not be able to protect as many people as I can now throughout the whole course of the game due to the reality shift that's coming. There will also pretty much always be "confirmed" innocents that I will not be able to protect, especially as the game goes farther on (because of me choosing to prevent a reality shift). Obviously I can't protect the whole town otherwise the scum would damn near never get a kill, but I can protect part of it.

I do not *have* to give up some of my protections, and I have 48 hours in real-time to PM KoC to give up said protections. I *can* choose to ignore the warning or whatever and keep all the protections that I have now. However, with what I remember of the only game with the reality shift in it (the hotel one) it will get bad. In the game, if you stopped moving for too long, the welder just came straight out and killed you, ending the game (probably like a dayvig for scum in mafia terms). Clearly that's not beneficial to the town at all, so I will be giving up some of my power later on unless there's an amazing reason not to do so (which I'm not seeing right now).

@Naomi: I still want to hear from you concerning your night choice/result.

[Amished]

@Lamont: Yes, I forgot. How often are you a doc, and have the only person to claim D1 be NK-immune? If you really want to test it, go ahead and shoot her if the combo really is a dayvig item (which I believe it to be). I'm saying that it won't work (but if you really want to lynch a claimed Trilby when I can protect a CC, go right ahead.)

Also, since your "argh" was fabricated, what did you expect to accomplish by not contributing to discussion at deadline nor being "able" to comment on roleclaims that would come out at the time? Certainly nobody pro-town would claim to have "saved" you, nobody scum would've unless it was real and they did. The only possible outcome was that a scumbuddy said they healed you "clearing" both of you. This was singularly unhelpful in one of the most important times of the game so far.

@Steph: There's really not much more to my role. I'm obviously hiding the number of protections I have (though it's clearly at least two if you try to day-vig naomi and it doesn't work, and hohum got a day added onto his life). I'm multi-protection until the reality shift.

The only time the reality shift was brought up was in relation to me giving up protections later on in the game. All my PM said was that I can give up (certain number) of my protections to prevent a reality shift, and that it'll be pretty obvious because of the narration that will occur (I'm assuming something much like the item posts, but a bit more in depth).

@Lamont: What of my claim do you not believe?

[Amished]

@Lamont: ISO 115 of me:

I'm Jonathon Somerset AKA the Gatekeeper. Along with Trilby, I'm one of the main guiding factors throughout the games. In the game, I'm more a prisoner of fate, having delivered myself a weapon to commit suicide so that I could basically become a ghost and travel through time to make sure that everything happened the way it was necessary so that Chzo didn't come to our world. This basically means that in the game, I arranged for a Trilby clone (debatable on whether it was the real one or not) to be taken by Chzo to save the rest of the world by keeping the God of Pain (Chzo) in the spiritual world (what happened in the last game).

That was in response to Pyro's initial question of my flavor in 1096 (page 44, near the bottom). I've told you what game my name comes from (the one in space), and about some of the circumstances that make my character powerful and why that lines up with what I have in this game.

The only thing I didn't disclose (at first) was the part about the reality shift.

At that point, I assumed that the scum would know of it (the reality shift), and would therefore be even more likely to use all of their powers to kill me. As I'm still alive (and with hohum's life being extended) I know that they did not roleblock me. If they had a roleblocker, why wouldn't they block me at all even if they did want to frame me and not just NK me in the first place too? Even if the roleblocker couldn't roleblock and kill, anybody left with them would be able to kill. Unless they have a jailkeeper type role so they couldn't kill me. Having a known doc (and they'd assume that I'm multi-protection as I would have no reason to lie) left unroleblocked can be a major problem for them.

They wouldn't no kill this early in the game, and if there were no NK's, I could be damn sure that at least one of my protections was absolutely cleared in the case of 1 killing faction or that I'd have 1.5 cleared people (as I wouldn't be able to rule out a vig, as much as a 2nd scum group would make more sense). Hell, I can't even be sure that there's not an SK that tried to target me to make a 3rd killing faction. All of that would be revealed N2 as the likelyhood of multiple successive multiple protections is really damn low.

[Amished]

The "tall man" is one of the two main bad guys (besides Chzo). He and the welder are most likely the two killing factions. In the game, the Tall Man is also Chzo's prince, and mostly how Chzo deals with the human world, sending his bidding through the Prince to bestow his wisdom or whatever onto our world.

Since Pablo seems to be the only other one that really knows the games, it'd be pretty safe to assume that all the main roles are here. Suffice it to say that the tall man/prince (same person, just the "informed" in the mythos call him the prince as they know that's his role wrt chzo being god) and the welder are both very likely to be role names in this setup.

I still have problems with Lamont's line of thinking. I cannot see a townie (especially one so prolific a poster as Lamont) wanting to give up his ability to talk at the end of the day. With my ... semi-confirmed state of being pro-town and attacking you rather heavily the scum would think that you're still a good candidate for a mislynch (from their POV), uncertainty about items overall (even a shotgun shell) would both lend to the idea that you shouldn't have thought that you were going to be NK'd.

Even without the self-imposed posting restriction, you shouldn't have thought you were going to be NK fodder. With that, it still does not follow that anybody sane would want to give up their ability to convey their ideas with the town in such a crucial time.

What the hell was really going through your head, Lamont? For the longest time, you've just come across as scum to me. For reasons I've stated, and for stuff I can't really put into words.

Luckily for you, if you're right about the item being a dayvig, if you use it soonish it can kinda be used as a lynch. We might or might not get a reveal, but we can go from another death at least.

I'll want to reread the game before really voting for a dayvig attempt, but my initial thoughts are with

lamont or dev

.

[Amished]

It's not that Dev didn't vote (I'm pretty sure there are more innocent than scum not-voting anyways), it's just more of a gut feel. Read Dev in ISO. The game isn't that confusing, there are items, but that's just about it. He's experienced enough to do more than what he has. He's voted for you, Lamont, and then unvoted. Otherwise going through he's asked Hohum a question on like page 7. He's not voiced his position on anything, just being an active lurker (who is slightly scummy because of his promise to voice who he thought was scum (Steph or Naomi) end of day1 and never did. I think his death would help out what I think of those two as well).

Also, Naomi: You were under severe scrutiny, and your ability was the only thing (other than lack of CC, which wasn't that definite overall) that kept me wanting to keep you around for today. If you wanted to have input, you should've said something yesterday. Then I could've protected that person to make sure you got a result.

Now it's just a question of if scumpartners would allow you to come under even more scrutiny (and lose you most likely) by not doing a damn thing last night. At this point, a confirmed innocent isn't that big of a deal typically, and would tie up another of my protections allowing them to be even more certain that a kill would go through. You being bullet-proof would allow us to wait another day (as long as the reality shift doesn't occur today, I should check the game as to which day they started there) and I can protect Nyx? who has the shotgun + shell.

Vote: Devestation

For both vigging or lynching.

[Amished]

We *can't* dayvig you today, Naomi. We'd have to lynch you if we want to kill you.

If you made a choice and they were town, then we'd have confirmed town. That's just fine. If you made a choice and we found scum, that's even better.

However, by even suggesting that you fake making a choice you'd have had to hit scum with your guess. Then if we thought you were lying (if your guess was more townie than scummy) we'd lynch you, and if you're who you say you are; we'd lynch them and if they were town we'd hurt the town even more.

For you to have a confirmed role is what we wanted *today* so we didn't have to bother with this stupid WIFOM and not allow scum to take your case and vote you for it making them look more townie for giving them a free bad choice to criticize.

[Amished]

I'm saying that whoever I protect during the night is also protected from kills during the day. If we decided to vig Naomi today, it wouldn't work as I protected her last night. You can test it if you want, but if it works I'm replacing out as that's not what KoC told me would happen. If we decided to lynch, I can protect Nyx, conserving the shotgun and potentially saving against a "backfire" shotgun that would kill whoever fired it cause he would then be protected during the day. I also would not protect Naomi (for obvious reasons) and she could then be dayvigged if necessary and still alive.

We can still lynch her (which thinking about 1287 by Tajo; specifically:

b)she is scum or third party that wants to out the real Trillby for whatever reasons (kill an important tole or win conditions or such).

makes sense, if Trilby dies, I wouldn't doubt that the reality shift happens. I got the feeling that it'd happen during the day just due to KoC saying that the shift would be pretty obvious due to the narration in the game, but narration can certainly happen in lynch/daystart posts as well.

To vig somebody else today, we all need to find a 2nd suspect (if you're already voting for Naomi) or a first suspect to vig before lynch. What's frustrating for me is that I know I can protect the real Trilby if somebody counterclaims, but that either one doesn't exist (lending to the fact that Naomi really is Trilby) or doesn't trust me.

[Amished]

I thought so, which is why I don't see why we aren't talking about looking at another person to vig if we do want to use it today. Obviously my vote lies where I think a vig should go as 1 vote isn't going to cause any pressure.

[Amished]

Because I asked whether or not (and posted before) that my protections work on flat out killing mechanisms during the day. I specifically asked if it protected dayvigs (yes) and if it had any effect on lynching (like raising # of votes needed or prevent it) (no).

I send in during the night, but whoever I protect is protected throughout the night and the next day.

[Amished]

New addition? I protect at night and that protection lasts until the start of the next night. No effect on lynches, but kills from maf, vig, sk, other (items) are prevented.

[Amished]

Because I asked the mod if it affected lynches and he said no. It applies to vig/sk/scum/item kills until the start of the next night.

Set: You're forgetting (or not considering) that this is a theme game which might be a little odd. As the "gatekeeper", I deliver people to when they're supposed to live/die just like in the games. In the games, I delivered myself to my own suicide for christ's sake.

As for balance sake, I've covered how I can't protect as many people as I do now later on in the game; so it's a part time thing, and I'm guessing KoC didn't expect me to be out in the open. If you're really that worried about how my role works, by all means vote to use the vig on Naomi (or hohum, as he's living another day because of me) and then try to lynch them. Guarantee that'll work out like I said it will.

@Zwet: Pretty sure I covered all of that in my original claim. If I missed the vig possibility, I didn't really think about any dayvig items especially after the first item made hohum die after a number of days, and then 2nd (now admittedly) didn't do a damn thing.

[Amished]

...... Because the role (right now) is overpowered? I've already stated that it will become much less effective later on (reality shift) making it much less powerful. (Normal) docs never out themselves this early, and me being able to protect myself allowed me to view that as an alternative.

How about this: As long as the reality shift doesn't happen during the day today, I'll protect hohum (or replacement) again. With this statement, anybody else that (theorectically, if I'm lying) could elongate life or protect them (or mod decision [sarcasm]) would be stupid to do so as it's out me as a liar, right? As he's still our only confirmed innocent that's still around, I don't have a problem protecting him. Then tomorrow, when he has another day added to his total; would you be able to believe me then?

Finally, while scum not roleblocking a claimed powerrole being stupid beyond belief easily leads to the conclusion that they do not have a roleblocker; I find the inconsistency in Set's stance interesting as well. He doesn't believe the claim, but to point to the scum "not having a roleblocker" as his main reason for not believing my claim doesn't follow that scum could easily have something else to counterbalance me. Or even that perhaps I'm one of very few power roles so having 1 doc and not much else would still be balanced. To bring that up as one of your main reasons but not examine the whole possible scenario is a slip in my mind, and confirmation that I won't be roleblocked.

Unvote
Vote: Setael

[Amished]

Set, you wanna try reading again?

I don't think that they have a roleblocker, but I know how powerful my role is. If you look closer, I'm criticizing you for not looking at other possibilities, but at only the one that would benefit you the most (as scum, trying to discredit me). Perhaps when I get "weaker" the scum get stronger. Them being strong (thinking maybe more kills, based on game/theme knowledge) nearer to the end seems like a good balance point to me. Or perhaps they have other roles that aren't roleblockers that are equally as powerful in other ways and still are just as powerful now.

Also, if I'm reading your (set's) post right, he (pablo) was the one to pick up on your slip. I commented on why I felt Pablo's starting point was wrong for ways other than what he thought, and he's not auto-town or anything for pointing to something you said.

[Amished]

Sorry about the absence, gonna try to get caught up now.

[Amished]

@Setael (1336): I do believe that scum don't have a roleblocker. However my point against you is that you're taking the thought that they don't have a roleblocker and saying because of that I can't have the role I have. Why, to you, is there no other way that the game can be balanced if they didn't have a roleblocker? Couldn't they have something else that was powerful, maybe a multi-kill if it was one scumgroup, or something that balances it later when I'm less powerful?

@Pyro: I protected Naomi because I forgot that she claimed bulletproof. As the only Trilby claim (when it should be pretty obvious that there's a trilby in a Chzo game) made me want to keep her around.

[Amished]

I wasn't paying attention to the IIoA vig vote tally, but with my vote on Set, he's where my vig vote is as well >_>

Catching up again.

[Amished]

I'm extremely sorry to everyone for my absence. Nasty computer virus into vacation made it impossible for me to be here or to have people know that I was gone. I'll be catching up today.

[Amished]

Starting from page 60:

WRT: Naomi's Trilby claim. Trilby goes through several clues, and then finds out that there's 1 bad guy and fingers them as evil. Even though Trilby investigates over several days, he still really only finds that there's just the welder and he's evil.

For the storyline of Trilby's games (full) he kills himself once in the third? might've been second.. game to save the world, but in doing so he only transports himself to Chzo's world to be eternally tortured and therefore never does *really* die.

@Zaz (questioning my PM's, role, etc.): I assume that KoC wouldn't tell me what would happen N3 (when Ho/Elmo was supposed to die) if I protected him then due to the fact that he was already under the blood's effect. However, with items upcoming if it was a flat out kill mechanic I would protect from that. I get people to where they need to be, but not always in the best of conditions.

The Gatekeeper is another name for my character. Just like the tall man is also the prince, and the welder also has a mortal name (can't remember it off the top of my head).

Also, rephrasing

@Hohum/everybody: When hohum became confirmed innocent I wanted to ask him if he had flavor of somebody in game, or just a vanilla innocent pm. I held back as obviously that would've tipped off that I wasn't vanilla, and probably would've come under flak for that and not being able to prevent a mislynch on Naomi that it looks like so far.

Hohum became an Innocent when he drank the blood. At that since I'm not just an innocent I wanted to know how that role PM went. I refrained from asking as I was not planning to claim, and that would've pegged me as either a power role or scum, and would've forced me to claim without potentially benefitting anybody else by being able to claim at another time. I'm still not fully convinced that having the innocent role pm wording out there will help, so I didn't (and still am not) pressing that.

In my PM, it doesn't say anything about being innocent, but it does tell me of which alignment I am. In other words: my PM does not specifically state that I'm an innocent, but that I'm human-aligned. I thought that innocents were roles rather than just alignments. Our version of VT's, basically. Until it was brought up, I just thought I was basically innocent aligned, and innocent myself but with extra benefits. Would I consider myself innocent (in terms of theme/alignment-wise)? Yes.

@Zaz (again): For the Malcolm/Jonathan thing: Going back to look at the games, it appears that KoC didn't fully do his research. Jonathan was the name of my father that I killed and took his position on the SS Mephistopheles. That's probably where he got screwed up as for almost the whole game (7 days a stranger) I was referred to as Jonathan.

It appears that LC was in the wrong for accusing Nyx of scum-stalling. On that issue, it was entirely plausible for Nyx to not have access or something preventing him from posting. To then advocate that heavily to vote him when he has the probable vig items (if waited) seems like he's playing exactly how he feels scum would play (scared of vigs).

We need to be sure Amished's replacement is caught up before this day ends. The replacement cannot have any excuse to not protect Naomi and Stepho tonight. If either of them die, imo Amished was lying about his claim.

So you forgot that Naomi still claimed NK-immune? Just pointing this out that I'm not the only one.

Also, with the now talk of the vanillager type role, and as a non-vanilla role here; like I said above, I have a similar win-condition but it's not exactly what's stated in the rules. It doesn't specifically state anything about innocent/evil, but I win when threats to the humans are eliminated. To me, this indicates that the baddies are god-types, (chzo, the prince, the welder). That, or I win alongside town, or win at a different point if there is a cult (as in the games the cult was all humans worshiping Chzo.) Because of this (and what Steph has posted on page 96 about Naomi being anti-spirit) I fully believe Steph's claim, and now believe Naomi to be cleared as well through Steph's investigation.

(BTW: I also want to point out that I was never prodded for this game >_> )

For more flavor (while trying to avoid being modkilled): From going through the games, I always thought of my character as the gatekeeper, and I'm pretty sure they referred to me as that at one time. In my PM it does say Caretaker, but does say I'm Jonathan. I'm a prisoner of fate, yadda yadda yadda; delivered myself the blade to kill myself to become a spirit both directed by fate and to ensure that fate continues the way it's supposed to. Say's that because of killing myself I've become almost as powerful as the mastermind to open the bridge between worlds (Chzo). Goes into explanation how that the prisoner of fate translates into me being a doctor and saving people that need to be saved and all.

Again, just to be perfectly clear: My role does not say innocent in it anywhere. It says I win when all threats to the humans have been eliminated.

As I believe Steph, Dev's basically confirmed as a vanillager through how he stated he wasn't supposed to be here or whatever, leaves Rock (2), and LC/Dramonic at one (Set is at one, but that's cause of me). Through those 3, LC gives me enough town vibes to offset some of the things he's been doing. I do need to get a better read on Dramonic and Rock though, so I'll be dedicating time to that.

[Amished]

EBWOP: Janine is in the last game (I'm watching them now, the last is 6 days a sacrifice) and Steph's given flavor basically lines up with her in the game. Forgot what her name was in that one. Honestly, if you can spare the time, it might be worth it to at least watch the full games, it's like an hour and a half apiece for the first 3, and closer to two and a half to three for the last one.

[Amished]

If the mod never mentioned innocent, no way would I think of myself as that. It'd become pro-town instead.

[Amished]

If you don't believe him, you can always vote for him. As it is, he'll be taking Naomi's spot in my protections and I expect them both to come forward with an investigation after the night phase. Still unsure as to who I'll be voting at the current time.

[Amished]

Oh for the love of...

You're stalling... so... much.

Unvote
Vigvote:Steph

to

Stephoscope: Seems pretty rational to me, I don't see what a lot of you people found scummy bout him.

And

Let's vig Setael

to

Setael : Very mixed feelings about her. She gives me scum vibes, but it's not like I have a really big case agaisnt her... All I see is the weird interactions with Dev and pendulum act on Amished's claim. slight scum vibe

"Seems scummy, do not really have a case that can be analyzed to pin anything on me though" is what I read there.

Also, it appears like he's coaching instead of attacking in his last couple posts. The weaker one is saying that Elmo should vote for him or have him be a candidate, and the stronger one saying that Zazie is pushing too hard. Whereas I would've expected something along the lines of "Zaz is pushing too hard on weaker points, and this adds to my slight scum-vibe" or something. Give a position and back it up. Not doing so (and yes, I know it's being done plenty elsewhere) is still anti-town at best and scummy at worst, giving yourself wiggle room for later.

For Rock, there's a lot of very cynical posting coming from him, and there are times when I can see his point. The fact that in ISO 24 he basically came out and cleared Dev as much as anybody not-cop can while still being extremely open to attack because of it makes me think he's a vanillager as well.

unvote
Vote: Dramonic

[Amished]

@Zaz: I asked about protecting Hohum on May 31st. To be fair, I only asked about protecting him N3 and not N1 like I did; however I protected him due to him being a confirmed innocent. (which is what I meant by him becoming innocent, it's confirmed that he is to everyone)

I wanted to know so that I could look at future power role claims (if any) and see if they were legit or not. Clearly having that knowledge out there would probably influence scum claiming, and I could then contrast that with what I have in my PM if they say something that's kinda weird or doesn't line up.

To rephrase this section: From going through the games, I always thought of my character as the gatekeeper, and I'm pretty sure they referred to me as that at one time.

I played the games a long time ago (probably about a year?) and only once. While going through, I thought of my character as the gatekeeper and not the caretaker. Minor difference in title, but that's just how I referred to him and why I said it that way at the start.

And you're absolutely correct with how the caretaker worked in the games. That translates here to keeping people around that should be around, etc.

For the Innocent thing, right now it's mod-guessing. Is it a role (like vanilla townie), an alignment (like pro-town) or what? If it was construed as an alignment by Steph, I can easily see where he'd say he's innocent as I'd be the same.

As I'm not voting Stepho now, I don't think he should be the top candidate. However, if he's the only one near a lynch I really won't have a choice and if he is who he says he is then we'll have an absolutely confirmed Naomi (and therefore can't have people keep looking at her to sidetrack whatever we're on) or he isn't who he says he is and we'll get scum today and still have wifom about Naomi. Though it would still appear that Naomi would be more cleared if Steph turned out scum as scumpartners would back each other up more about anything they said about a role and would very likely plan that out last night.

That's another thing that has been bugging me, it seems very clear that they aren't both scum. If anybody, it's Steph only. Scum would have to be very confident to have a confirmation of sorts like this on an un-NK-able person to the rest of the town, what with also my claimed abilities.

[Amished]

If you're still around, and you obviously didn't kill yourself, who did you target last night?

I actually wouldn't doubt the tall man being in the game. With the anti-spirit alignment that was brought up before, and me being pro-humans and winning when the threats to the proverbial you are defeated, it still leads me to believe that there will be spirits of some kind out there, almost certainly in the scum side of things.

[Amished]

Since I win when threats to the humans (and therefore human aligned) are eliminated; being anti-spirit makes sense to me personally. As nobody else said anything like that, it makes me think that he's putting out what he knows from his PM's.

I wanted to know so that I could look at future power role claims (if any) and see if they were legit or not. Clearly having that knowledge out there would probably influence scum claiming, and I could then contrast that with what I have in my PM if they say something that's kinda weird or doesn't line up.

Like Stepho having claimed ''fellow Innocents'', while you and Naomi have claimed it says ''fellow humans''?

I played the games a long time ago (probably about a year?) and only once. While going through, I thought of my character as the gatekeeper and not the caretaker. Minor difference in title, but that's just how I referred to him and why I said it that way at the start.

So why claim to be the gatekeeper, while you claim that your role PM says caretaker?

For the Innocent thing, right now it's mod-guessing. Is it a role (like vanilla townie), an alignment (like pro-town) or what? If it was construed as an alignment by Steph, I can easily see where he'd say he's innocent as I'd be the same.

It''s a role as the mod stated. Also, does the second make sense when a claimed role cop who also gets allignments according to him, claims to be Innocent, while the PM about his investigation apparently never stated Innocent?

First point: I'm still technically a spirit, I'm just watching over the humans. Going from the game, Trilby being in all of them (except the space one) would be aligned with humans as a whole, while Janine (in the last one) would be aligned with the innocents as she doesn't know as much about the whole situation IIRC.

2nd point: Because I didn't read my title when I claimed. I knew who I was from the games, and my powers, and kinda what would happen later on. I went from my memory instead of taking it word for word from my PM. A mistake looking back at it, but I probably would've done the same thing in any other circumstance too.

3rd: He investigated Naomi N1 who is a power role (and he was too). He would not know the information now as it was never discussed and he didn't get it in any role pm to that point in time. All he could compare it with is his own and obviously that wouldn't help him as he's not just a vanillager.

[Amished]

@Zaz: I have no idea if the order is involved or not. As my win condition is specifically tied to the humans, I'm taking it to mean that I'm against spirits. BTW: The exact wording in my role PM is that I'm a Creature Of Pure Will. Basically a spirit, but not exactly.

About Dev: He has his own role pm (PR). He investigated another PR (naomi). So all he would see/have knowledge of are PR roles/wording. Even with the deaths being "innocent" it could have been a limited reveal death game (just giving alignments). During D2 when he was questioned most heavily he would not have knowledge of our vanillager's actual role being "innocent". Townie or Pro-town would be analogous for a normal mafia game.

[Amished]

@Dev: Zaz hit it on the nose, I meant stepho who investigated Naomi (mostly talking about D2 scenario).

[Amished]

Yeah, I definitely see a correlation between the doll and the infamous idol that made people kill without them realizing it. Perhaps it just makes whoever took it into Defoe (since his first version died), or just makes them responsible for a randomized kill. Either way, I don't think we've lost a NK'ing faction.

@Zaz: I did protect Elmo last night. The reason I asked xtoxm who he targeted when he was around (probably couldn't reveal that anyways) was that perhaps he went after Elmo and just saving his life doesn't add onto his life expectancy or adding a day only works once. I'm not sure, but those are my two best guesses as to why he didn't get to live longer. Since xtoxm didn't kill himself and there was only one, I can only assume that there's either another pro-town role that stopped it or it was me. Clearly it's best for them to stay under the radar, as it'll add even more uncertainty to any scum role.

[Amished]

@Zaz in 2850: You're saying it doesn't make sense for humans (who are innocent from my perspective) to be aligned with the "innocents"? They're the same faction from what I can tell. Of course they're aligned with each other.

Like somebody else said, Pablo got modkilled and the matches live on. One way or another I feel that if we're able to come around and lynch the scum one of us will be able to pick up the matches and burn down the house. What makes me even more suspicious of the matches being tied to our win condition is that even though the manor was burnt down (in the first game) it had absolutely zero effect on stopping the evil forces. I claim bullshit that the matches will affect our win condition in any way.

Unvote
Vote: Setael

[Amished]

Zaz: It doesn't say fellow humans, it says I win with the humans (threats to the humans have been eliminated.) Also, 13 further solidifies my stance that humans/innocents can be used interchangeably. This *should* help to clear stepho (and therefore Naomi) in your eyes, but you vote for Naomi (who's NK-immune) anyways.

@hohum: Happy scumday! And I agree that Zaz's vote is extremely odd and at this point in time I wouldn't doubt set and zaz being scum together.

@Lamont: That and I don't think that the best we can do is get a draw as the game with the manor setting the house on fire didn't do a damn thing as the three parts of John Defoe were still intact and the manor was still around in the last game. Burning the house down should do absolutely nothing at all.

@Steph: I'm willing to lynch Zaz right now, but if we lynch Set (which I'm also willing to do) would you investigate her? This would help clear up a lot of things for me, and probably for the whole town. You'll get one of my protections.

[Amished]

Ok, absolute worst case scenario: Set is telling the truth and for us to win we have to keep her alive (and then lynch her today).

I trust Stepho to investigate her, and I have enough protections to cover her, steph and me at least. I'd need to look over dramonic as a lot of people are saying that he's scummy, but for now:

Unvote
Vote: Zazier

[Amished]

@Lamont: No, I do not have the doll. And that scenario (Set-town) is still taken care of by not lynching Set right now and having steph investigate her.

@Zaz: Something I posted 17 days ago, with me working 2 jobs and playing softball two nights a week kinda distracts me from anything that didn't happen in the last like 3 days. For my vote on you, I think your position that there's no power roles is utterly craptastic and is the only way you can try to push a lynch on somebody that you can't NK as you're still the only one going after Naomi. According to my own thoughts of two weeks ago, I thought that you might be scum with him (well, him with you) so either works for me.

[Amished]

That's just evil. I'm contemplating voting for KoC pretty soon. Looked kinda scummy and I don't trust that avatar.

[Amished]

@Zaz: Because I believe a creature of pure will (which is what I am) and a spirit are two different things. Yes, it's a fine line to put somebody on one side or another, but that's what I'm thinking. For the rest of 2970, it just looks like you trying to rules lawyer by saying a square is a rectangle but a rectangle isn't a square. I think the mod has shown a willingness to use similar terms (and in the case of my name in my role PM, wrong terms) so an interchanging of innocent/human/whatever else Stepho got is on KoC and not due to Stepho fake claiming.

BTW: How does Naomi potentially flipping scum tie to me? If she's scum, of course stepho is, but I don't have an investigation. Because they were scum doesn't have a bearing on my own. I see that as a feeble attempt to chain lynches without the proper logic to back it up (like hohum was talking about steph -> Naomi, but even then we'd have to look at it from a normal scumhunting perspective as Stepho could have hypothetically been telling the truth on Naomi's role.

[Amished]

EBWOP: Hit submit instead of preview >.<

Anyways:

@Zaz: Why do you feel it relevant to divulge how many protections I have in a night?

@Set: I don't know exactly when. When I do, I'll say it in thread, or maybe not as I still can PM KoC.

@Lamont: Yes, the claim is unconfirmed. However, since you openly stated that you think Zaz is scum (which I agree with), we can lynch her, keep an unsupported claim til tomorrow with an investigation on Setael, then in an attempt to confirm all of Steph's investigations we can lynch him and see where Set stands at that point. Isn't that a better course of action than to lynch somebody that might have a key to a win condition?

[Amished]

Zaze: You're clearly creating a false dilemma. Have you seen any other theme games that had both town power roles and perhaps a safe claim for the scum? Almost every theme game has that. Naomi's alignment IN NO WAY proves my alignment/role. The only way that works is if Steph turns town then Naomi is proven innocent. Yes, also if Naomi is scum, then steph was obviously lying, and he's proven guilty. However, there's no correlation between them and me. Quit trying to setup a chain of mislynches of town power roles.

[Amished]

Can innocent also be an overarching theme for all pro-town (like, well, pro-town in a normal mafia game)? Yes. You know why I ask that? It's because I win when threats to the humans have been destroyed. So far, the humans seem to be all innocent, as the only "scum" that's dead has been a spirit. By your own explanation, town = innocents, so substituting that into 3: Town wins if they destroy all Evil characters. Seems straightforward enough and says nothing about there being power roles or not.

[Amished]

Sorry, summer is always crazy. Looking over I saw Zaz needed to ask me something so here's what she's asked:

Never mind the thinking. The matches should also be important for the scum if they are indeed the Order. Without it, the mind of John DeFoe can''t be destroyed.
Before anyone responds to this, I''d like to hear Amished about this.

It's hard to say. I say that because we need to figure out if we're going for the long term game or the short term game. Long term, while having the house burnt down was good for both sides, but better for the world as a whole (allowed events to happen so that Trilby was trapped forever in Chzo's world, and others were killed in the process but Chzo didn't come over to the world of technology because of it. Short term (only game 1) burning down the house allowed Trilby to escape without people looking for him while also bringing peace of mind to all involved. I would think overall it's better that the house be burnt down, but it really could go either way. Also, obviously, since in the game there was no way out until John Defoe was "killed" we need to make sure that the house isn't burning while we're inside of it.

Also:

EBWOP
Amished (And possibly Lamont)
If I remember correct, both of you have played the game. We know that SK Xtoxm was the body of John DeFoe. And therefore the killer of last night is very likely the player with the doll in posession. So who do you think the scum will be from the game?

From the game, I would suspect it's the .... shit I can't remember what he exactly was, but it was a member of the order who called the prince in during the hotel. That still doesn't make sense with my role PM being aligned with the humans, so I still say that the prince is out there. I almost wonder if the scum don't have control of the kill, but tied to something that we're saying? I'll admit that I totally missed last night and didn't protect anybody, and I do believe the person who has the doll killed Elmo. Unless there's another PR (town RB) that stopped who sent in the kill, it very well could be tied to in game happenings. It can make sense with a small scumgroup with the "randomized" kills from chzo's blood and the bad shotgun/shell and somebody getting possessed and killing (assuming) at random as from what I remember in the game whoever was possessed didn't really know what was going on when they were possessed.

@Pyro: No, I do not have the doll, but how do you come up with zwet, LK, and Siro as probably not having it?

[Amished]

The.. spirit? of defoe was killed at the end of the manor when the welders mask, apron, cleaver/whatever and the remains were all put together by trilby and gave the two other people that were left with him (another kid, and then a reporter iirc) stuff from John's brother and father to combat him in the spirit realm (basically) to put an end to his reign of terror in the manor. When he was killed like that, then trilby and the other two could leave the house (possibly while set on fire right after the possessed remains, for lack of better term, were killed.)

Long term, the manor was rebuilt to be in the timeline for the last game as well.

[Amished]

I was around, was trying to mind-game the killing faction into just not targeting Sajin last night without having to protect him. I tried on a couple occasions to post at the end of yesterday, but there kept being memory errors. I didn't disagree with the L-K lynch as I thought he was scummy in my catch up read.

@Lamont: Why is there no way you're voting for Pyro?

I also agree that sironi and zaz are both cleared for the innocent role PM.

@Dram: If you think that there's 4 scum, would you be comfortable with thinking that LC, Zwet, Tajo and Pyro are all scum together (pending reread to look for possible connections)?

[Amished]

EBWOP: crossposting for the win.

@Lamont: So, you believe that there's only 2 scum in the game as no matter what I'd ask you you'd say you're not scum (leaving zwet and tajo only)?

[Amished]

*watching and waiting for more reactions*

[Amished]

Why is it that much of a stretch to believe that there's no way else that we'll be able to find to start a fire if need be? Hell, if I'm still alive at the end game and there's a fire in the fireplace (there was one in the game, who knows, we can't exactly explore the "manor") I'll spread the fire from the fireplace to the house. I'd still win. And who knows, maybe that's what's "fated" and it's what I should do anyways. I don't believe that one item will prevent us from all out winning.

Tajo's reaction to Lamont seeing logic seems scummy and I'd definitely be ready to vote for him. Zwet I can never get a read on, so that's a calculated risk but not overly so for me. I need to reread pyro/lamont to see if one or both are scum (and from my position D1, I'm already distrusting of Lamont.)

[Amished]

Seeing that two scum is too few for a game this size, so from his viewpoint 3 would have to be the case as he's cleared everybody else. He had 4 "suspects" including him, and he cleared pyro previously. That left you and Zwet. After I pointed that out, he put Pyro back into his scumlist as well. That's what's logical about Lamont.

4 suspects (including self)
clear one other (and clear self)
2 suspects in a game of 19 is too few for normal balance, so need 3.
Unclear the "other"

This is all something I would expect a logical player to do (and a viewpoint that I can see). From that, a position that I can understand helps my read on a player much more than scum tells ever will.

[Amished]

@Dram: Seems logical.

Vote: Zwetschenwasser

[Amished]

Mod: Votecount please

[Amished]

Twice in a row? I told you I protected last night. The night before I was on vacation.

Pyro gets my vote for next investigation.

[Amished]

FTR: I will be on vacation starting Saturday til Monday night (then spotty access from Tuesday til probably next Thursday)

[Amished]

Percy also appears to be the most pro-town out of the the three remaining unconfirmed players. I can see a 2-1-5 situation (which wouldn't turn out to be lylo if both kills were on the townie) or a 3-1-4 (which would make zaz, percy and LC all scum, and easy to not mislynch.

(BTW I said that I was going to be on V/LA til monday for sure and potentially til yesterday in I think my last post before this...)

What I see from LC is mostly bluster and Percy actually trying to figure out what we have from most likely situations.

[Amished]

With worst case scenario being the 4-3-1 (3rd party needs to whittle down mafia too, essentially making it the 5-3) assuming only 1 kill tonight (like it has been) we'd have 4-3, a sure lynch (either guilty, or we have the 5-2-1 where the 3rd party is more like a survivor and we'll hit scum with going after one of the other unknowns), and more investigations. Even if it's O.o small scum group, then it'd be 6-2, and we still don't have to worry about it really. I'd be down for a no-lynch, even though I'm pretty sure LC would hit scum, I'm not willing to bet a game on it.

Vote: No Lynch

[Amished]

I was confused about the back and forth between LC and Percy as well. I couldn't get a straight read either way. The way I see it is that most of our weird stuff has come from items, and we haven't gotten any for a long time. With my personal uncertainty towards LC, Percy and Zaz; and unknown number of scum I feel that we very well could be in Mylo instead of Lylo. Even with three scum (regardless of GF or not); we've only had one kill a night for a long time. That would leave us in 4t-3s (currently assuming 5t-3s just due to the fact that a third party does have to try to get both town and scum whittled down, and scum is the primary objective as they're the more powerful and immediate threat right now). Given that I have at least 3 protections, if we do get a scum through investigation tomorrow, I'll have more investigations than scum has people. In that case, I don't see how we can lose. So I'm playing the safe and most likely to win way, and hoping that if a powerful item comes up scum won't be able to get it and swing it back in their favor. If an item does come up, we still have the odds to more than likely get the item.

That's my current thought process, but I'd like to hear from both Percy and LC to give *concise* examples of why they feel the other is obvscum, due to what they're trying to twist or misinterpret or misunderstand or ignore.

[Amished]

In the 4v3v1 situation though, the 1 would know that if they kill a townie it's over. They have to target scum (or no-kill, if that's even an option for them. Mafia 91 had a compulsive vig that we dealt with, and that kinda plays into the theme) in that situation to play to their wincon. They'd either have to NK or pick off scum to have a shot at winning, and hope for some confusion.

However, your case makes rather a lot of sense, so I shall have to reconsider if I want to take a chance with Lamont or NL

Unvote

for now so that I can deliberate more. We still have a week from deadline, though with 4v3v1 we'd either need every non-scum + 3rd party on scum or bussing. Damn. Though LC's flailing looks like me when I was scum (both newbie 748 and 741).

Mod: Votecount please?

[Amished]

Fair enough point.

[Amished]

Vote: Lamont_Cranston

[Amished]

I don't know if scum wouldn't ever get the idol as they might think that they need it to help fulfill their wincon. However, my first impression of Zaz having the idol for a while was the same as Devs.

@Zaz: How did you get rid of the idol if you had it? What can you reveal about having the idol at any point in the game?

[Amished]

As long as a reality shift doesn't occur, I have the same amount of protection as I did at the beginning of the game. It should be made apparent through narration (at least that's what was told to me) if that occurs, so until then you're good to go.

[Amished]

Did you not realize that's what Steph did the last 2 days? Put out a hash, but not keep his result secret like he did today.

I believe Zaz is gone from the site completely (not sure for how long) as she hasn't posted elsewhere for a while either.

[Amished]

The point is that you *can't* crack it. Why are you trying to.

[Amished]

No. Between his vote (where he explains it as "gut") and his "not shifting", Lamont only posted once, and a lot of what was in between Dev's posts was discussion on no-lynch and the set-up. I don't see how any of that would affect a gut read, nor make him feel that he has to talk about his vote either.

Sorry I haven't been able to pay as much attention to this game as I should be.

[Amished]

I will be V/LA until Sunday afternoon (probably)

[Amished]

Indeed. Having the two last posts before you, KOC, made it hard for me to get current information on everybody...

[Amished]

What do you have against me?

[Amished]

Hey, Dev:

What do you have against me?

[Amished]

Hey, Dev:
You can't believe I extended hohum/elmo's life N1, and got Steph (who you obviously believe) to endgame through my protections?

[Amished]

The shift in the video game made it so that the whole world was more dangerous. The welder would show up in a room if you waited too long. As the idol is gone (thrown out the window or whatever happened to it) I wouldn't expect him to come back. Clearly if we're "in" the story timeline, the doll will make it to like 400 years in the future or whenever, but it doesn't show up in any game *but* the manor and the space one (where it's destroyed).

I don't think anything really *caused* shifting in the game, other than the state of Trilby's mind. Gah, it's been too long. I believe there was nobody other than Trilby in any of the shifts, though the living people's (in the normal world who were killed) dead bodies showed up in the shift.

I still have some power if the reality does shift and I prevent it. I still have the same powers as I do now if I allow it to just take place, which at this point wouldn't be a terrible thing. Right now, though, I want to look back to see if anybody else made mention of shifting, if Dev only sometimes had the ability/it moves. I would've expected night communication, but I guess theme-wise, the prince isn't always around to be consulted.

Overall, I say that we get rid of the Prince. Getting rid of a major killing role is huge for us, and only makes us safer. Dev's actions today are highly suspect (trying to crack your code to see who it was, is the simplest and most logical conclusion) However, check to see if anybody made mention of a shift before deadline at any time to double check my own checking. This is something I don't want to miss if it does move around.

I shall vote for Percy later tonight after I look through everybody's posting that's still alive (other than Percy, of course).

[Amished]

I've not seen anybody alive (I also checked xtoxm since he was John Defoe, Zazier and LC since they've both had the doll) else say shifting, so I think it'd only be on him. Probably could *only* happen after the doll was gotten rid of completely.

Vote: Percy

[Amished]

As I'm part of the remaining power roles, Trilby is basically only unNKable as they only had 1 investigation, and "Lenkmann" was evil in the games and a weak version of a doc (couldn't protect the same person on consecutive nights) I'd say it's not that bad. As such, your insinuations that Tajo is a PR is completely bogus.

Also, since I get weaker if an unknown condition occurs (the reality shift) gives any other scum probable more power. Also, the fact that the SK can move around to somebody already "cleared" by an investigation is rather hard as well, as it punishes lazy play which is all too easy with a doc/cop team.

[Amished]

So you think it's questionable, but you're not going to vote for him because you're wrong. Got it Dev.

[Amished]

Other than Percy? Hard to say. I don't like Dev's explanation nor behavior today, but I don't know if that's enough to go on. There's just too much to try to guess in this game I believe.

[Amished]

One thing I will note down before the discussion begins, which is for Amished' sake: his ability to block a reality shift can't be used to block a kill leading to the endgame (which is what just happened), and only Lenkmann's protections persist through a reality shift. Now, I have a lecture in 2 hours. Good morning to you all.

Well that's just lame. As soon as Percy flipped innocent I had tajo/Steph scumteam pegged instantly. The way my PM was written made me think that I could give up my protections or keep them through a reality shift, not that I'd lose them anyways.

Also, I had 3 successful protects this game! Too bad two of them were on Stepho.. Though I kept myself alive, that didn't mean much as apparently I don't get 3 protections if I keep them through a shift.

Also, there was no shift "apparent in narration" so I was completely neutered after it happened no matter what I did. Fan-fucking-tastic.

[Amished]

Sajin, that was a period where I was barely active at all on the site. I had missed you getting the matches much like I missed Trilby having NK immunity N1, and I completely missed a night phase in there as well.

Also, since there was no shift, my protections should've held up as it lasts throughout the day as well. I protected a person, who should've had day protection as well, since there was no reality shift. Protecting from a kill is NOT equal to protecting a reality shift.

[Amished]

@Zaz: I told you I wasn't lying about my role PM -_-

[Amished]

O well, whatever. Not much we can do about it now I guess.