The Manor: Chzo Mafia (Game Over!)
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Passive aggressive maybe! ... >_>
Anyways, between the pimp and hohum: I understand not liking the RVS (I don't either), but everyone still has to start to weigh in or post *something* before we can really get out of it imo. To just rush through it and not have quite a few people contribute a single word other than confirm isn't that "noble" an effort, for lack of a better phrase.
Hohum: Why are you so worried about Lamont's vote/feel the need to comment on it?I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
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Both a no-lynch and a mass claim are detrimental to the town at this point though, as far as I'm concerned. We've brought up the No-Lynch topic (I believe, otherwise I'll copy-paste basically the exact same argument I've posted in another game I'm in). Mass claiming can easily out town power roles or force townies to lie if they don't want to be pegged as a power role (still bad). To even think about bringing either suggestion up is a terrible idea.I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
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Or it's blood (Chzo theme) and they die from poisoning sometime or turn evil or switch alignments if they're not already aligned with Hohum...
If you give it to somebody else to drink, are they forced to drink it, or is it more of a giving to them type of thing?I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
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I guess I'm of the opinion that if xtoxm wants to take the risk, he might as well drink it. Either he's like a townie with a less powerful role and doesn't feel that important, has a role that helps prevent bad things from happening (nk's, dayvigs, whatever) or a gambling scum. Either way with something you don't know the effect of it might be worth it to try on a volunteer.I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
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Sajin, you're basically asking him to outguess the mod for something that's a 50/50 chance anyways. The only way I see this going is you trying to crucify hohum for it later on no matter what which is definitely anti-town. What are you really trying to accomplish here?I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
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We're not even 50% sure. It could give you info but make you go silent for the rest of the day. Or just make you go silent. We have no idea what it does, nor will we find out beforehand. Trying to outguess the mod will not benefit us in scumhunting. In any way.I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
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I think you're misreading. *I'm* not 50% sure, and I don't care to wager on the effects as I'd probably be as wrong as anybody. Kratos said the 50% sure that I think you're referring to. I was presenting the possibility that it could be both detrimental and beneficial, further leading to my point that trying to guess what it does is pointless and detracts from the overall objective of finding evil.
The problem with your statement is that most other public abilities have a known result. A gun found with a single shot, obviously a dayvig and has a predictable outcome. A used bulletproof vest, 1 night protection, a predictable outcome. We have *NO IDEA* what the hell this potion/wine/whatever does, and is impossible to guess. Therefore, it's pretty damn hard to determine anything from that as you're just as likely to harm the person that you're giving it to as to help them. Therefore, motivations are damn near impossible to glean from this situation. With you trying to, when I view it to be both pointless and distracting is the reason I both disagree with you about this case, and why I'm voting for you.-
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So you're ok with something that you don't care to speculate on (so therefore you admit that it *can* be very bad) and to allow that to go to somebody that potentially might balance the town side due to randomness? (since even in the flavor/sign-ups the mod said that this game is probably not going to be that fair to the town) I prefer not to take chances in a closed setup that's somewhat bastardized already, and probably balanced somewhat against the town, just judging from my knowledge of the x games a stranger series.
Another question: What happens in the case that we give it to the volunteer, if they do guess/know what the effects of the potion are? We then all find out (probably) what the effects of the potion are, and if the effects are that good, would you not then have a target for suspicion? If the effects are then good, and then are used in what we can all agree to be a pro-town way would that not also be good?
Do you just have something against xtoxm getting the potion? In all cases, I'm still failing to see a good form of logic out of you.I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
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First off, @TAJO: read the drop post again.
IT IS NOT BALANCED TO BE PRO-TOWN OR ANTI-TOWN. It is a random drop, probably from a list of potential drops that might come throughout the rest of the game. Therefore your statement that it's pro-town is overly optimistic. While items can make the game swingy, who's to say the next one won't make it swing the other way, or bring it back. Or that item be neutral, and one of the next will reduce the effects of an earlier item?KoC wrote:This is the firstrandomiseditem drop of the game.
On a theme note: Who here has played/watched the chzo/x days a stranger series to be relatively familiar with them? I've played them once, and I'm trying to remember something from the 2nd? game I believe.This isn't italicized/red for mod color, nor green for a mod request so hopefully this won't be a problem....
Unfortunately, since I've been gone all day I've missed a fair amount (which I'm kinda glad for since we're all being active (gj guys and gals)). The way I see it, the only people that should be relatively unafraid of the decanter are VT's (or weak pro-town PR's) or people that know the effects. Therefore I do not want to risk our power roles as we almost certainly have more than mafia, and I disagree vehemently with any random force of drinking the liquid. Another side point that I wanted to make here: not choosing to drink it is a null-tell in my book. I can see both pro-town and pro-scum motivations for not drinking it. While I believe it to be a null-tell for not wanting to drink it, I feel it's a *very slight* townie tell to volunteer, while anti-town to force people to drink it.
@Sajin: I didn't think Lamont's position was that muddled. He likes having a majority weigh in on somebody scumminess/proof of role (lynching), but is wary of one person being manipulated or not seeing the whole picture. Especially in this case, where the results are an unknown quantity.-
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@Sajin: It's not for Naomi's thoughts (while I do find you to be scum), but I defend those who have *CRAP* arguments put against them. Everything I've pointed out that you've said should have been reasoned out/read a little more fully imo. Lamont's position was crystal clear to me in this most recent case. I felt your position against hohum was unreasonable as well (making him try to guess whether it'd be beneficial or detrimental, when I clearly don't think that we can). You've also miscredited me with a quote (the 50% thing) and all of this add up to somebody that's not paying attention to the game and/or not thinking about it. I think a more common pattern than me "defending" Lamont is me criticizing your arguments and apparently playstyle.
Furthermore, I was talking about the uncertainty of the effects, when we have no evidence one way or another to decide on what the potion will do. Millers, bus drivers, commuters, they're all *predictable* yet uncertain. This decanter fails the predictable part of those situations. Lynches are often predictable things (if not *always* the role of the lynch, though it can be sometimes with a cop result or whatever), especially if it's not under the imminent shadow of a deadline. With that you can judge the wagoners/voters much more clearly, further dividing the rift between the two situations. Either way, there's still an amount of certainty with a lynch: you can be certain they're going to die (except in the rare and obvious case of unlynchable). That effect can overall have a positive outcome on the town, even if the person was a townie. Getting rid of a scummy looking player, a lurker, or confirming a roleclaim are all pro-town outcomes from a townie lynch. There's easily much less uncertainty in a lynch than giving a random person (that you suggested to do) a random effect, while on top of that not having anybody be accountable for the action. Hell, a dayvig is less uncertain than doing this.-
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Then I suggest that you make your statements a bit more clear, Sajin. At that time I thought it would either be good or bad (not a *potential* combo of both). Therefore, since we don't know what it does, it's just as likely to be good as bad, no? Your logic is still bad.
And you don't know if a dayvig/serial killer(well, this one is debatable )/jailkeeper/paranoid gun owner/whatever is in the game. What the hell is your point? As soon as they claim if they're in the game, we can deduce their past and future actions from it, while also having it fit on a predictable course. Taking this is a one time deal. We do not know what's in it, we'll most likely never have an opportunity to use this exact thing again, so it's both random and unpredictable.
So you're asking me why I want to throw away something that *could be* verifiable, when it *could be* unverifiable, while it also *could be* very bad, more likely to hit town than scum (probably no matter what method we use), and if we do use it randomly we *could* lose a town power-role. Who's to also say that it won't hit scum, be beneficial, but all they get is a PM and they can either lie about the contents or make it appear more pro-town when they're obviously not.
However, with 5? people that either volunteered or supported forcing it on somebody else, I'm not as against having somebody drink it voluntarily as I was before. It's possible that all of the volunteers are scum, but I highly doubt it. In that case, I view it as something selectively random. While I don't trust anything in a Chzo theme, it could very well be beneficial (I'll be the first to admit that I don't know what it does). Therefore with the chance that it's beneficial, and that I don't believe all the people volunteering to drink it are scum it's a fair chance to help the town, while also leaving the chance if any scum are there to still help the town.
Finally, would you be willing to drink the decanter voluntarily?
@Pablo: I realized what I was thinking of: In the hotel one Trilby took pills (not any sort of drink) to keep things "normal". I had taken a more overall view to the series, and not just focused on the first one in the manor. Even on the ship, people were possessed, and while everyone saw blood, nobody ever really drank it. There isn't much precedence in the series for this, so it'll be more of a mod creation.-
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Ok, this might clear things up a bit:
Do I believe that there are more townies than scum? Of course.
Do I know what the decanter does? No
Being Chzo theme, do I see a definite bad outcome from drinking the liquid? Yes
With the bad that's very possible, and more likely to hit Townie on a random vote, would I want a random number roll? No
Care to elaborate? Does this mean that you think it'll help the side opposite to who takes it?Pyro wrote:Anyways, it seems more likely that this is supposed to balance the village in a detrimental way.-
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But that's the rub still. The town is most likely underpowered (#13 in the rules), and not going to be easy. With 3 of your outcomes being "bad" compared to 2 good, I see it being harmful for the town if we go with a random roll.Pyromaniac wrote:Look at these. If you made the town overpowered it would be easier to balance through detrimental ways.-
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Well, it also depends on what the item is. Something like taking a hat would be beneficial, or perhaps a book. Though mysterious liquids generally have a negative connotation outside of just chzo theme.
*IF* we decide to go random (and I'm overall against it), here's mine:Original Roll String: 1d191 19-Sided Dice: (12) = 12-
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In that game, you still touched the welder stuff to be possessed. That or that piece of wood that came from the slave ship. It's been a while, I'd need to go through them again. But I was suggesting things like trilby's hat might be like a cop role, or the book trilby used to bring the welder "to life" and then have people have stuff of the relatives to actually kill it. Items were necessary and beneficial to escape from the house and to keep the evil at bay for however long, while also helping to find clues to continue the game (same as any detective game).
However I don't recall trilby drinking coke, and even then it was slightly harmful judging by your description. The only thing "positive" that happened from getting rid of liquid was the empty swimming pool where trilby found that underground stash thing.. It's been way too long since I played those games.
I don't see the reasoning behind xtoxm's statement. I'd lean more towards having knowledge of the liquid, which can be either town or scum. With the possibility of losing powers/dying, I can easily comprehend why a pro-town role wouldn't want the item used.-
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Note: http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p ... 383BBD885B is a full playlist of the manor game, and the player has a full playthrough of the other two "true" games in the series (I don't consider trilby's notes to really be in the series as it's stealing the trilby character and not having anything to do with chzo).I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
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Also: it was enough just to touch the item in the game (and it was an idol, not *just* a piece of wood that made you want to kill people). Therefore we also have to watch hohum "tonight". One thing that I forgot about, was that salt played a relatively important role, so not all "food" is bad. A piece of meat also helped get past an obstacle in the trilby's notes game.
Unfortunately for us, Lamont in 377 and Pyro's 388 are correct, but hohum is v/la so I doubt we'll reach any consensus and especially not talk about the decanter since it's become such a large part of the game.
AFAIK, there's not much (if any) precedent to drinking something in the "normal" reality in the series and having the result be good though. Like I mentioned before, Trilby took some pills in the hotel (actually was the trilby's notes game, I was thinking about a different trilby game that wasn't part of the storyline) to shift from the terrible reality with the welder and corporeal evil to the normal reality. I'm looking for something in the trilby's notes game right now, be back to report it soon.
Ah, ok, nevermind then. In the trilby's notes game, Trilby (the protagonist) drank water to bring himself from the bad reality to the normal one. However, with what I remembered about the OBA (order of blessed agonies, see next paragraph) I'd be wary of those volunteering as they're necessarily evil and would probably know the effects of some of the items.
If this game follows the series kinda at all (which I believe it does) we also have to be aware of the Order of Blessed Agonies. It's like a cult that worships basically the scum. Forgot about those guys. This raises xtoxm up on my list as he has always been eager to drink the liquid. It very well could be beneficial for the cult to suffer (name and their role in the game both suggest it), and for the water to be harmful to the town benefiting the cult. The "evil gods" of the the game (the prince and chzo) would likely be immune to anything that happened as not even shooting them had any effect as evidenced by the game.
With that, I *strongly* suggest disposing of the container altogether.-
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Mod: Please prod NuevaVida
I'm also calling out URoEveryone. Post something substantial. I realize you *had* problems with your computer/whatever, but the 20 hours that you said you'd have something has gone about 20 hours ago.
Xtoxm: Lynching D1 is nothing like giving a random person a random effect. Votes pile on due to inactivity, scummy behavior, whatever. A random person getting the decanter behaves nothing like a lynch. What connection do you have between not giving a random person a random effect and not lynching anybody?
Also:xtoxm wrote:Like I said, I suspect this item will be detrimental to the player regardless of their alignment. The mod said we are meant to think in this game. I don't know anything much about Chzo, but alcohol is a reasonable guess. Alcohol could, like I said, lose someone their vote today, or maybe count as roleblock tonight. I seriously doubt it would kill someone.I can't think of how drinking a liquid like that would be much of a good thing for anyone who drank it.
...... Do you just misunderstand yourself or what? You suspect it would be detrimental to whoever drinks it, but you can't think of any reason a pro-town player wouldn't want to drink it? Yes, all pro-town people want to become weaker.../sarcasm.xtoxm wrote:I cannot comprehend why any pro-town role would not want this item used.-
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Which "noobie quiz" are you referring to, AJ?
@Xtoxm: The game we were in together the longest was newbie 694, where I was the doc. That was also my first game, and I've completed 3 more, been NK'd/lynched in 4 more. The other one that we've had together you replaced in on Day two after I did. You thought I was a bit more townie than I was, and I ended up being lynched that day (as scum) and you were NK'd that night. Both cases you saw me in a non-D1 scenario, and in the first case, I was at my noobiest. Please, point out to me a solid D1 meta that you can really construe into being scummy.
@AJ: A *random* vig, especially D1 before any mislynches can occur (say 1/4th of town is scum/anti-town) is then therefore 3x as likely to give information that a person is protown (with a chance of hitting a pro-town powerrole), and then they'll no longer be available to help the town rather than hit a scum. Directed D1 vigs are another story, and I have no problem with those. Even a reasoned out day1vig without outside interference I have no problem with as long as the reasoning and vig appear to have pro-town motivations.
Further delving into the Chzo theme, everything is rather gruesome and brutal, with a lot of supernatural happening. Until I thought about the Blessed Order of Agonies (a rather *huge* part of the Chzo experience), I was leaning towards a volunteer taking the potion if they felt the risk was worth it. I would disagree with them vehemently, but as it was not my choice I could only argue against drinking it and not be happy with them taking it.
However, with the BOoA that I feel is likely to be in the game, the order would have knowledge of various Chzo related artifacts, and they could very well volunteer to drink something that they know the significance of just to fulfill part of their win condition, help the Evil in some way, or perhaps make it easier for them to recruit into their cult (all anti-town outcomes). All of these guesses are reasonable just based on knowing the games and the objective of the cult. I don't even consider this outguessing the mod, it's taking stuff from the theme that the game is based on, and applying it to a likely situation here. Therefore I'm now trying to give out what I think about the game, correlate that with what I know about the theme, and give caution because of what I do know about the theme.
Xtoxm's rush to grab/drink/take the decanter is what has me worried, as it does seem like a thinly veiled attempt to get something with known effects to him. Your (AJ's) posts seem to be more information oriented, so if you want to drink the liquid, you would probably be my top candidate as your posts and stance seem solely dependent on information, and not blind rushing into it, while I also find your stance on the liquid the most reasoned out compared to the others. Your stance seems to be against what I feel a BOoA stance would be, negating that. I still wouldn't want to drink the potion, but if you want to take the risk, I still disagree with you, but I have no power to stop you.-
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EBWOP:
I disagree. I feel the scum would have more of an inkling as to some of the effects of various artifacts/items around and would base their opinion off of that. If it was a good effect, they'd want to take it for themselves/their scumpartners. If it was a bad effect, they'd want the town to take it. If unknown, and then now taking into account my stance on how I think it's bad, I'd still want a townie to take it. I find none of these really match up with wanting an item to go to waste.xtoxm in 415 wrote:Only scum want items going to waste.-
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Yes, themewise in the game that this is based off of, there's a religious cult (Blessed Order of Agonies) that exists for the sole purpose of bringing Chzo (a God of Pain from another dimension) to this world. They have extensive studies about Chzo and the artifacts surrounding bringing him to our world. They're a major part of the x days series that this is based on, and I see no reason why they wouldn't be included here. So I am saying that it's highly likely that they would have knowledge of any artifacts related to Chzo. While they might just be construed as the scum for the purposes of this game, they might also be a cult, giving us another worry.Sironigous wrote:
Amished,Amished wrote: Xtoxm's rush to grab/drink/take the decanter is what has me worried
*snip*
are you implying you think other people have inside information about the decanter or items in general?
Of course, this particular item might not have anything to do with Chzo and they're as much in the dark as we all are, but I still take more stock into having a faction or at least one player that knows what the items do.-
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Building on Lamont's 432: We don't even know if *we'll* get information out of it. It could be just for the player and they're forbidden to talk about it. Or give them something that will affect later actions, without being told. There's still no guarantee that we're getting any information out of somebody drinking this at all.I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
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Devestation: I think what AJ was trying to say was that the top voted/"randomized" (even though it then wouldn't be randomized..) should have a chance to refuse. Of course, that doesn't make anything random, but I don't know if AJ ever really advocated for a random dispersal, just using it? I'm not sure right now and I don't know if I'm sober enough to check >_>I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
No, my name is not "Ed."-
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@Devestation: I hold the same viewpoint, however you can't not drink it if Hohum decided to give it to you. So we're basically tying you down screaming. Now if this was a European mature movie, that might not be so bad. Unfortunately, we're in a manor with evil trying to kill us all.
I don't *think* that there's any sort of liquid that people really drink, or something found to drink other than the water that I talked about earlier. In the game, that was a puddle formed by like a leaky pipe or something, and nothing formal like anything in a cup. My project right now is to watch the playthroughs of them again and make sure though. If there is a precedent or anything to compare it to it'd probably be in the trilby's notes game (possibly in the flashback to the inn, which is where I'll be looking first). There's nothing that I can think of in the first one in the manor, nor in the future/space, nor in the underground complex that I know of at the moment.
@Naomi: So you think that using the decanter will narrow down our choices as scum, either by killing somebody, or doing some effect to make them pro-town. You've stated before that it really is up to Hohum how he uses it, but lynching/not lynching is purely an overall opinion by the town by nature. But even then, you're more of the opinion that it is a kill type mechanic, and therefore should go to somebody scummy looking. Another thing: who knows what the next item will be? Perhaps it'll be a shovel, or a painting, or a ring, or a twig, or whatever. The nature of the item can also give us clues, while having a mysterious liquid gives us nothing really to work on.I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
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I'd have to check to make 100% sure, but the wine bottle was used to hold the water to keep Trilby "safe".
@Lamont: I have never played nor read a game of tajo's so I have nothing to compare his style here with anywhere else. I commented on the blue section, saying that it was outguessing the mod (in an indirect way) since I pointed out that the drops were randomized and therefore could not be guessed to be not *that* bad or whatever.
@Devestation in 464: Bingo!
@Sironigous: If hohum uses it on his own, how does Naomi have any misdeeds to wash her hands of in the first place? She isn't deciding what to do with the decanter so there's no "deed" ascribed to her. Therefore if it turns out bad, it won't be *her* misdeed, it'd be hohum's.I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
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EBWOP:
Also @Tajo: Which is why I said not wanting to drink it is a null-tell. I can make inferences by who does want to drink it, but nothing that will be that solid, or explained solely by alignment.
@Xtoxm: I think a pretty large majority would say that this item is most likely detrimental, wouldn't you? If that's the case, what do you look for in a candidate to give it to if you had it?I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
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