DHSDSM beta: Game Over.

[Frog Dodging]

Vote apples and banana.

Many apples, but just one banana?

Signing names does help the town in a way, but it also creates tons of confusion since it sorta turns this into a 28 player game. Not sure whether or not it's the right approach, it's quite easy to tell everyone you have a meta on by their style anyways.

I think this game should be over by page 31 (3 scumkills), 36 at the very worst. So less fluff and more substance, people.

Three scumkills would only end the game in a typical twelve player game if we also not only lynched three times in that period but all of those lynches were also mislynches. If you consider that furthermore we're fourteen players in this game, not twelve, it makes your stance even more bizarre.

I do think that it is optimal to lynch at least once for every scumkill, if possible.

I completely agree with Yos2. Action phases help scum.

Vote: PokeTheAlpaca

WAGONWAGONWAGONWAGON GO!

I have no intention of signing my posts. My posts are (or at least should be) indicative of the thoughts of both me and my partner. Any differences we have we will resolve out of thread. To be honest, I expect you all to be able to tell the difference between us anyway, but I don't see any massive benefit to the town to distinguishing definitively between us - trying to keep tack of each individual head's opinion as opposed to the entire hydra's opinion is just going to be a distraction to the town.

[Frog Dodging]

I'm unsure as to whether I like the rapidly materializing wagon on A&B or not - part of me wants to leap on there full-force, part of me wants to run away screaming bloody murder. It's rather blah-inducing.

I really, really, really,

really

detest PokeTheAlpaca's useless posting thus far. It reeks. Really really really really really really really reeks. The fact that the wagon is losing steam saddens me greatly.

Incamn, re: lurking; stuff it, I'm busy. No, we are not going to waste posts when we have nothing to say in order to fulfill some arbitrary criterion you set forth. It is contrary to the goal of this game, which is to speak softly and carry a big stick.

Scope's wagon-hop is a null-tell and perfectly normal for him. Ortohoops has a huge tendency to say a whole lotta nothing in his posts, which is something to look out for.

[Frog Dodging]

Incamn, re: lurking; stuff it, I'm busy. No, we are not going to waste posts when we have nothing to say in order to fulfill some arbitrary criterion you set forth. It is contrary to the goal of this game, which is to speak softly and carry a big stick.

So which exactly was your excuse for having only posted once?

a) You were busy and couldn't get around to it
b) You were intentionally not posting because you "don't have anything to say"...
or
c) You were intentionally not posting in order to conserve posts, and delay the next action phase, like a good little townie?

Because it seems to me like you crowbar-ed three different lame excuses into one post.. .
And the criteria isn't arbitrary... you just had only posted once all game. That is not enough for me to decide iif you are town.. so I default to you being scum.

Sorry, how are those three in any way mutually exclusive? It was a combination of the above. Secondly, it's page three. How is one post in two-and-a-quarter pages in a game where talking less and saying more is rewarded?

3.

Zmd

- Seriously you two. I like you, but lets play mafia here. You beat me by lurking once.. IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN!

That was Zaz. I never lurk strategically. And even in 672, Zaz's lurking wasn't strategic.

I don't see the case on A&B.

Fuuny how Hoopla/Ort calls Poke's wagon opportunistic and then jumps on the new popular wagon.

Unvote, Vote Ortohoops

I hate hate hate it when people say "oh I never do X" because most of the time they

do

. It bugs the hell out of me. Also, this post is obnoxiously short on content and high on an accusation that holds about as much water as a sieve missing its bottom.

Why has apples and bananas wagon died? Because they decided to try to look like they're playing the game? All they did was agree with Yosariwen's point and hide behind them. Agreeing is fine. Wagoning is fine. No original thinking = scum.

You expect all 12 hydras in the game to all have completely original thoughts on different players by page

TWO

? Its a game where conserving posts is essential, and you're trying to say I'm Scum for not having said much by page TWO?

Stop trying to slide by saying nothing whatsoever except a half-assed defense. You are wasting posts. You are making posts with no important content, and then saying you're trying to conserve posts. It reeks of hypocrisy. Also, 14, not 12. Pay attention.

If Incamnito was any more town, my eyes would implode.

I know what you're saying about A&B, but for these hydras I do not have yet enough information to get a read, and I'm confident I will be able to get a read eventually.

With the Swine Flu going around... this is definitely a lurker I want to rattle.

vote: Death the Hogfather

*DGB*

Standard lurking tells are not valid here. Scum gains nothing from saying nothing because it makes their kill come along slower. Scum does gain something from making numerous short posts devoid of content as they push us ever closer to a dreaded action phase, a la A&B and PoketheAlpaca.

I agree with SWSWC post 66. A&B doing no scumhunting but posting only excuses even after all the pressure on them makes for a fine lynch today.

@ Ortohoops 68: Thanks for the WIFOM.

Pesco

MASSIVE HYPOCRISY ALERT MASSIVE HYPOCRISY ALERT

People seem fixtated on the idea that we should only lynch once per action block. This is how things work in regular games, but I don't see why this should be how things will work here. The more and the earlier we lynch, the less kills scum have, the better. I therefore suggest we try writing fewer posts, with more content. I'm not saying people should be terrified of posting, but saying more in fewer posts gains us valuable space. I think people should try treating this game as a form of Verbose Mafia, and only post when they either have a substantial point (which doesn't require the post to be long) to make or several small ones.

I love this post. Too bad it's already been said multiple times, but we applaud the effort.

We would also like to recommend that hydras talk with each other and attempt to make one post reflecting the viewpoints of both parties as opposed to the other way around.

[Frog Dodging]

Incamnito, is there a good reason for us to know who he targeted?

Well, we were thinking data-dump from the target before they died.
For instance, if A&B targeted a Cop or a Tracker, then maybe they would want to give us results before they died.

HOWEVER, considering the length of time since he suposedly entered his kill, it seems less likely that it was successful, and obviously we suport the lynch at this time.

-Incog.

It is a bad idea to go forth with a lynch until we get a target from him; there is nothing to lose from waiting in such a game. In other news, it is also sensical to lynch A&B regardless now since a compulsive vig has as high a chance of being a danger to the town as he does being a help.

Actually, at this time we would like to ask A&B to vig themselves in the next action phase. Failure to do so shall result in their lynch. Agreed, everyone?

[Frog Dodging]

You guys can start digging our grave once we're dead, and not a minute before, OK?

Since our mortality is on the line here, I feel it prudent to share every last thought I have on this game before our untimely demise. Raging Wishbone is quite inefficient at what they're trying to do. Yosariwen is way more downkey than I would expect. Look at them after our death. Sex club is a tad bit quieter than I would like. PTA and ZMD need to die already, especially PTA. Incamnito is one of the people that the town needs to start striving to act like. For someone saying so much about activity and whatnot, Ortohoops is extremely quiet. Death and Trotsky need to start speaking up. I have also heard absolutely nothing from nyball.

As a bit of fair warning, you are all letting this game go by the wayside and die. This game is not about lurking continually and just lackadaisically commenting when you get the chance. Start talking, all of you, or we're going to regret it down the road. You're all so fearful of action phases that you're letting it get to you.

[Frog Dodging]

I still feel that people are essentially treating this game in an inefficient way. Every post should have a purpose beyond the addressing of one particular point or idea, every post should try and contain some amount of contribution from both players - unfortunately, I didn't manage to get online before my other head posted and talk to him, so I have to waste a post here. C'est la vie.

What I really feel is that fluffposting in this game is strongly indicative of scum. There's absolutely no incentive for town to post things like "yeah, that's cool" or so on and so forth. Such behaviour is excusable in the random stage, but we're way past that now.

PTA's posts are just a waste of space. He really is not adding anything to the discussion, just fluff, more fluff, vague agreements with people... anything to avoid comitting to something vaguely resembling an opinion. Take his post 6 - not only is it not internally consistent ("Obv DGB. Protown vibe." => "a slight scummy vibe from DGBHoopla.") but it also gets us no closer to knowing who he wants dead, to eventually deciding on a lynch. It looks like information, but it really isn't.

Neither of them are meaningfully suspicious of anyone right up to the point where tajo calls out A&B as sk, at a time when building consensus is happening that A&B is a good lynch (and he is - we maintain our policy of lynching claimed compulsive vigs in this game. No reason not to, frankly,) - again, a lack of actual scumhunting is apparent. When PF posts it is better, but even then, his posts are mostly attacking logic rather than building any of his own up. Mafia is a constructive enterprise, first and foremost - we are trying to build up enough information to cover the deficit that we have with regards to the scum, so the emphasis should be on making more material, more arguments and more ideas to work with - tearing down is perfectly acceptable pro-town behaviour when you think an argument is wrong, but it should not at all be the only thing you are doing. This is PTA's greatest fault. No real substance.

I think town should be looking for scum from the following group: {ZB, ZMD, Trotsky, PTA, nyballs} That is not to say that these are the only people who can be scum, but they are the only people not ot have given me a pro-town vibe at any point in the game.

[Frog Dodging]

Hrmf.

I had sent my partner the results of a reread for him to turn into a post with the results of his own reread.

He hasn't got round to it yet, so I'll just post my thoughts.

I'm disturbed by Yosariwen's lurking. I don't think lurking in this game is as much of a scumtell as it would be in normal games, but for Yos in particular lurking is extremely bizarre. We both agree, at rate, that this deserves more attention.

Most of my thoughts are about the PTA wagon. If PTA is scum, then the fact that it competed with the A&B wagon for a while gives fertile ground for analysis. Of course, this all changes if PTA is town.

To make this a bit quicker, here is the exact replica of the post I sent to my partner:

1) Scum do not know who the SK is. We should treat the a&b wagon like a townie wagon for the purposes of identifying opportunistic scum.

2) The a&b wagon competed for a decent time against the PTA wagon. On page 3, the PTA wagon briefly reaches 5 votes, before it is the a&B wagon which takes off instead. If PTA is scum, this looks bad for incamnito, trotsky and ortohoops. However, for trotsky the position is more difficult to analyse, as one wanted to vote for a&b and the other wanted to vote for PTA. Not sure what this means for whether or not they are scum

3)ortohoops is posting a lot of fluff. There is very little actual scumhunting in ortohoops' posts - it is mostly theory discussion. That seems like an excellent scum strategy in a game like this.

4) Hogfather seemed anxious to hammer a&b without ever expressing prior suspicion of him. Odd progression there.

5) ZMD seems disconnected from reality. Not really paying any attention to any of the growing wagons - may be trying to slip under the radar with a vote on ortohoops.

6) I can't read DGB very well at all, but I am getting scummy vibes from their posts.

Normally I would say all these things more assertively, but I haven't parsed it into my normal mafiaspeak. These are still raw thoughts. A second PM contained the following:

PTA makes an effort not to die when he looks like he's going down. Hrmf, typical. Annoying, but typical. Why can't people sense danger building at a time when there's actually a chance of stopping it? Look for stalling on claiming, since that's the last hurdle before lynching him.

Jscope's PTA vote looks blaaaaaah. Check him out.

@Frogdodge, you mention trotsky and ZMD briefly in posts 137 & 138. You say they can be reasonably scum in that grouping but you don't go into detail exclusivly on Trotsky and ZMD. Why do you believe they could be scum?

I made my one of those posts before I reread, and my thoughts there were mostly gut vibes. Reread has given me more substantial reasons to be iffy about trotsky and zmd.

Zmd is scummier than trotsky.

[Frog Dodging]

This game is becoming extremely frustrating. My partner hasn't posted since, ooooh, early May. I have neither the time nor the inclination to analyse the god damn massive walls of text. Frankly, they're not very interesting. And the way RW quotes other massive walls of text in his own massive wall of text, so that you had to scroll down past them to find out what he was going to say, then scroll back up to see what he was commenting on, was extremely annoying indeed.

However. Yosariwen is town. I'm pretty sure of it, tbh. There are a lot of arguments being put forwards that are simply nonsense. A short summary:
a)Yos patronising Nuwen is a scumtell - bullshit. Not only is that not happening, it's also not true. Yos patronising Nuwen worked as a scumtell in the last game because he was trying to cover up for one of nuwen's mistakes - and nuwen hasn't made a mistake here that is on the same scale.

b)PokeTheTajo is scum because he is bringing in emotion from the alpha game to try and manipulate people - I really don't think this is a scumtell. There is no way they thought consciously to themselves "let's remind everyone of alpha so everyone starts associating Yosiwen A with Yosiwen B." I just don't see it at all.

c)"My biggest concern with RW's log fishing is stated up in today's log, but I'll summarize: it seems like RW is attempting to undermine Yos' case from any possible angle, including whether or not his intra-hydra communication is accurate. This is irrelevant to any counterpoints any the case Yos and I have built - we're posting logs only to indulge posterity and are not humoring RW's idea that our case hinges on consistent logs. But the logs are there and consistent anyway, so neat-o. "
Quote boxes are ugly. Anyway, this doesn't hold water. RW was obsessed with AIM logs in the other game, too. RR believes that WW is an aim chat analysis genius (look at their posts in alpha) and I do think that they would ask for AIM chats regardless of their alignment.

d) "Once again; just to reiterate, the above post and the willingness and need for self-adulation of Yoso on behalf of his partner reek of scum trying to find a way to jusitfy their "existence in the world"" - I beg your pardon? This is probably the worst of the lot - it just doesn't make sense. That's not the way scum mentalities work. Scum do not need adulation. They are not looking to justify their existence in the world. I don't even know how you came to that conclusion.

I'm not sure about RW scum. A lot of it seems to be an emotional OMGUS reaction on Yosiwen's part - he made a nice long detailed post, got attacked for it, felt victimised. However, there is a nugget, a core (that came before the back and forth) which makes some sense - like I said before, we treat the A&B wagon like a townie wagon for the sake of scumhunting, and RW's actions there are scummy.

I'm tempted to vote for ZMD here. Again, they are nowhere near where the actual discussion is happening. They're off in their own little world - which is a comfortable position to be in for scum. They have their suspect, who's unlikely to be lynched, so they can simply leave their vote there for a while. They're not in the thick of a great debate, so they're not going to be questioned too heavily. All they need to do is make a post every once in a while re-affirming their support of a trotsky wagon.
In this game I do it on Santos, partly so I don't have to comment on the wagon on my scumbuddy. In this game I had planned to do it on elmo, my scumpartner (but then ended up lurking instead. Whoops!) You can see it starting, though, if you look at my posts in isolation. This one I do it on alexhans, my scumpartner. It's so much easier to play as scum if you don't have to pay attention to the game.

Just to your chosen vote.

[Frog Dodging]

You have a point, shaft.ed, about trotsky. With ZMD it feels worse because ZMD has also been lurking all game, whereas trostky was relatively active and involved at the beginning - the

only

thing zmd has done is push that wagon.

I also think trotsky's seesawing on the a&b wagon is more likely town than scum. Overall, I have a slightly scummy vibe from them but I'm happier lynching ZMD.

I'd quite like to finish off the PTA wagon, tbqh, but meh. I think we could learn a lot from knowing their alignment.

[Frog Dodging]

Lurking=bad, especally if it slows the game to a halt.

You have not posted in 11 days. Where are you? (granted I like what little you have provided)

Yosariwen is still my pet suspicion, although it seems an unfortunately unpopular viewpoint at the moment. Yos is adamantly anti-lurking; why is he letting this game go 11 days without a single post from himself?

What bothers me the most is that nyball points out this MASSIVE HYPOCRISY and then pretty much ignores it entirely in favor of saying "I like what little you have posted, though!"

If Yosariwen = scum then nyball likely = scum.

Aside from one of the other contentless posters, I'm not really seeing a great alternative to PokeTheAlpaca - he was one of the fluffers early on and his main comeback so far has been trying to justify the use of those useless posts and igniting a weak case on Zaphod. I'm counting five votes on the wagon. I'm willing to wait a bit to hear what Wishbone has to say - I also need to see if I can get into contact with my partner. Ultimately I will likely be moving my vote there, however.

Pretty sure that you're the last one to be talking about contentlessness when your one post prior to this was a mostly useless one to try to call wanting to lynch someone who is either an SK or a vig who MUST KILL a scumtell. Which it generally isn't when the person in question appears to be paying no attention to the game itself whatsoever.

Nice fence-sit.

Generally when I'm on the fence about something, I sit on said fence. Thanks for pointing that out!

I disagree to an extent. Scum will still want to rush things a little. I expect to see a mix. Scum who are trying to sneak in extra posts and scum who lurk. That being said, Trotsky posted more than needed in the first couple of pages. +Scumpoints.

And you are a paragon of contribution, and definitely not lurking whatsoever! You're attacking someone who

barely posted at all

for posting more than needed in the first couple of pages while ignoring PTA who posted completely useless posts early on. What are you smoking, and where can I get some?

I don't see PTA as scum.

This is a well-qualified and great piece of analysis. POSITIVELY RIVETING

I'm sorry I haven't been posting. I (Yosarian) do not do well with this kind of mecahnic; the "posting without making progess hurts the town" thing really messes with my head, makes me want to make every single one of my posts *EPIC* and game-changing, and when I can't do that or don't feel up to making a super-mega-post, I tend to put it off. Same thing happened to me in the Short and Sweet mafia game, and posting hurt the town less in that game then it does here. Of course, lurking hurts the town as well, and probably hurts the town more; it's just really hard for me to post when I can't make a short pithy comment without wondering if it's worth doing in a cost/benifit analyis. (My intenet connection was down for about 24 hours on Wednesday, but that's not the main reason.)

Plus, for some reason, I'm really having trouble finding stuff to talk about in this game. Still, I will do my utmost to post more, even if it means some posts with less content. I've never been replaced in any game I've ever played on mafiascum, for ANY reason, and I will NOT let this be the first one if I can do anything about it.

Your excuse for your lurking is sensical, but kind of fails at the point where IIRC earlier you were the one stating "lurking = bad". You've clearly made up your mind as to which is worse, but you're just not making the effort to put anything forward. Furthermore, you're not the only half of that hydra. Where has Nuwen been?

With that second paragraph I can almost hear the sickeningly triumphant and patriotic music kicking in already. It doesn't mix well with what I'm listening to, FWIW. That being said I have bigger hypothetical fish to fry than you at the moment.

*6. Incamnito (Incognito+camn) : I like the scumhunting coming from this pair. Good vibes.

You're a very detail-oriented person. Why are you bothering to say "I like the scumhunting and good vibes from the dead people!"?

I cannot understand how you can simultaneously want as many lynches as quickly as possible, and blatantly be trying to start a new wagon.

This is a great point that I didn't even notice myself. Further affirms my suspicions of Yoswen.

EVERY game where I had seen him random vote he was town. EVERY game where he hadn't he was scum. He random voted in Alpha and I thought he could be town there and scum here. He was scum in alpha so I'm wondering if the town tell falling out there effects his non-random vote-age here.

What everyone seems to be forgetting (and what this is a shining example of) is that it's Yosari

wen

, not Yosari

an

. Stop ignoring Nuwen's existance.

Seriously? I spent 2 hours last night doing a hyper-detailed analysis of everything in the entiere game and every single person in the game, probably the longest and most meticulasly reserached scumhunting post I've done in any game all year, and that's your response? I find that kind of strange, honestly.

Ugh. I really hate this "HOW DARE YOU? IS THIS THE THANKS I GET? I SPENT ALL DAY SLAVING OVER A HOT KEYBOARD FOR YOU PEOPLE" point. For lack of a better term, it sucks.

Interesting you should say that; I was just think your absurd reaction here (which is basically you attacking me for daring to find Raging Wishbone to be somewhat scummier then PTA) very, very much increases the possibility of you being scum with Raging Wishbone, especally if Poke the Alpaca flips town.

I hate this. I truly do. You're basically saying their reaction was absurd for raising numerous legitimate points about your contributions.

Allow me to take this moment to make an aside. Yes, we need to conserve posts. No, we do not need to write something to rival War & Peace every time we make a post. More concise points and less trumping-up and fluff would be appreciated.

I started the wagon, remember?

We remember from the first six times you said that, thanks. Could you at least lay off of that until I have the chance to create a drinking game around every time you say you started that wagon?

Yos tail = easy... any time you try to defend Nuwens lack of intelligence and vocabulary and understanding of the game. Everyone here knows she ain't that stupid Dude... quit patronizing her, writing things that make her look stupid...kinda looks scummy because she does not seem to be a retard.

You have the intellect of a mosquito, but please post more because it is absolutely hilarious every time you do. At least I can read the walls-o-text knowing there'll be some zany comment by you somewhere. Raging Wishbone: The hilariously unstable hydra!

And now for a history lesson for you all. The reason Yos is generally revered as a good player is because he's very good at making his opinions appear as fact. For example, this:

For example, she was the one who first noticed how scummy your actions regarding the AB wagon was, she was the one who figured out that you are scum.

He speaks in the definite to make his opinion seem like the only acceptable one.

And how can you prove your earlier vote on PTA wasn't simple distancing???

Burden of proof lies with the person trying to prove the positive. Try again, please! It's pretty hard to prove a negative.

And I think he made a vote I didn't like the timing of.

Well, your honour, I think he might've gone done something I didn't quite cotton to at that point! Ayup!

I love how when it's pointed out he didn't vote after naming his suspects he gets RIGHT ON VOTING RIGHT THEN AND THERE. I'd also like to note that all of Zmd's votes so far have been on someone with 0 votes. It's like he's trying to blatantly avoid looking like a bandwagoner and trying to avoid any possible connection to anyone else at all. PAAAARANOIA

I'm not sure if continuning to go back and fourth on this forever is a good idea, since I don't want to waste too many posts. But I'm quite confident RW is scum, and frankly the sudden, unexpected, and harsh resistance I'm suddenly getting to the idea of lynching him is making me a lot more confident I'm going in the right direction.

"Hrmm. I seem to be getting resistance from quite a few people. I must be right!"

The SK, ESPECALLY an open and outed SK, is a MUCH bigger threat to the town then to the scum, and leaving him alive is MUCH more anti-town then it is anti-scum.

You are failing to remember the fact that he could just be exceptionally dense.

Also worth noting that Yoswen lurklurklurked until people started crying foul, then showed up and tried to be EXTRA ACTIVE!

It's a scum manipulation trick to remind other people "Hey, remember how that guy was scum and we were town last time we played?" It's scummy because my alignment in a different game clearly has nothing to do with my alignment here, so it's worthless as a scumhunting trick, but it's an effective manipulation technique that's effective at getting people to look at someone else in a suspicious way.

IT'S A TRAP

meh but dont worry I defended yo/nuwen this much in Alpha and turned on them first mistake they made and we ALL nailed them. I promise if I make a mistake I will be the first to admit it but for now tajo/poker = fail lynch!.

YOU ARE MARGINALIZING MY CONTRIBUTIONS TO THE YOSWEN WAGON IN ALPHA I HATE YOU DON'T SPEAK TO ME

However. Yosariwen is town.

I wholeheartedly disagree with myself.

We've agreed that our vote, despite my inclinations towards Yoswen, will be placed upon Zmd. I also want more pressure on nyball. Now.

Unvote, Vote: zmd

I am disappointed in how painful this game is to read thanks to the massive wall-o-texts.

Apparently I also want to note that zmd's posts are noticeably less detailed and whatnot than in alpha.

[Frog Dodging]

I mean to try and pack as much information in as few words as possible. This post may be quite dense.

ZMD: No wall of text battles. Do not cut up my arguments. Treat it as a whole. In general, you failed to refute any of our points: you haven't given any real excuse for why you are posting opinions on some things but not others. You have given us almost no insight into your thought process. You strawman us a couple of times, particularly when you respond to us saying you should talk about other things than just the one person you are suspicious of and you take this to mean you should blindly follow. Why are you suspicious of x and y? Do you care if people respond to your questions? You are skirting by the waysides.

KMD is doing all the posting. It is not unusual for zazier to lurk. We expect a burst of activity from zazier at some point.

J-scope is giving me bad vibes. Not certain why he is focusing so much on his quicktopic thing - no one has argued with him, yet he keeps pushing it.

RW's accusation is nonsense. If you read the posts, you can see we did believe we were going to die.

SWSWC started the A&B wagon. After that, listed trotsky as a secondary suspect after PTA - this is noted (suspicious). Not feeling the PTA wagon as much any more. ZMD needs lynching. Don't think they expected to die - posts may reveal more, as they had not yet begun preparing to die.

I need to speak to my other half about yosiwen.

[Frog Dodging]

And I strongly believe FD to be SK because of his confidence in surviving A&B's kill. Surviving the kill itself is a long shot. How many times do you see a claimed vig's kill stopped by a doc or RB? And if the action was sent before A&B claimed their target, why would FD be protected? It's still plausible that A&B was RB'd, but that's about it. I think either they were RB'd or FD is SK.

Because no doc would ever protect the hydra composed of two of the four most experienced (at that point in time) players in the game, who between them have 8 and a half thousand in game posts, have been nominated for four scummies and who are generally well respected and established members of this site. That would just be

silly

.

Can we please stop speculating about this anyway? The only thing we're going to succeed in doing is outing a doc/rber. If at some point we massclaim (and we should) if we were protected/a&b were roleblocked it will be announced then. And if there's no announcement, y'all can draw your own conclusions. But right now we don't need to out power roles.

We don't like the RW wagon. We haven't done the meta yet, but we suspect it is based on RW's stupidity rather than his scumminess. We worry he will end up being lynched by default, as we 'have' to get another lynch before page 12.

Not liking zmd's attack on us at all. Also, their defense of themselves amounts to "Well, why shouldn't we play like this?" which isn't really a defense of anything, it's just rhetorical bluster.

There was an SK which means no vig. The only way I am dying is if scum kills me or an SK who has no vig fakeclaim kills me. I don't see why I'd be a threat to scum unless I am dead-on on the scum team. Even then, I'm probably not their best target. So no, I'm not "prepared" to die.

This was referring to swsewc. I apologies for the lack of clarity.

My other head still needs to put in an appearance.

[Frog Dodging]

Because no doc would ever protect the hydra composed of two of the four most experienced (at that point in time) players in the game, who between them have 8 and a half thousand in game posts, have been nominated for four scummies and who are generally well respected and established members of this site. That would just be

silly

.

You'd done nothing at the time that was worthy of protection. I guess it can't be ruled out that you were protected, but why were you so confident in surviving the kill?

When doctor's sent their protection in, guess what. Neither had anyone else at all. The game hadn't started yet. Even if that weren't true, though, numerous players had already stated that they thought we were protown. You point falls down on every possible level. The real problem, however, seems to be that you fail at reading. Go read the post where the quote came from. Then tell me that it looks like we thought we would survive.

Not liking zmd's attack on us at all. Also, their defense of themselves amounts to "Well, why shouldn't we play like this?" which isn't really a defense of anything, it's just rhetorical bluster.

Yeah, I think you are SK, so I must be scum, right?

And what am I supposed to defend to anyway? Laziness regarding Walls-O-Text? That's the case on me, right? I'm lazy and suspicious of you and therefore scum.

Yeah, no. Stop being stupid. The case on you is based on numerous factors - you are lurkish. You fail at giving any useful input - all your posts are either refuting arguments against you or posts like iso 3 - where you say nothing of worth or of use to anyone. You avoid talking about any of the major suspects or wagons in this game - you are trying to avoid the limelight, trying to avoid giving anything away. You have focused on trotsky as a convenient excuse to not talk about A&B, PTA, Yosiwen/Ortohoops, Raging Wishbone... we don't even know what you think about, well, anything. Ortohoops you think is scum because of

Fuuny how Hoopla/Ort calls Poke's wagon opportunistic and then jumps on the new popular wagon.

and that's it. A&B you "didn't see the case on". You've not mentioned the PTA wagon. You've not mentioned SWSWC coming up scum. When you are so focused, off in your own little world, like you are, my gut screams scum. There's no need to scumhunt if you already know who is scum, right?

Laziness about posting walls of text.

Honestly.

zmdposting is bad. the whole of his post 224 is defensive all the way through and without even trying to refute the points against him.

Show me a specific point that I haven't tried to refute. You won't find one.

Unfortunately, "So basically my choices for scum are unlikely to be lynched, so I should mindlessly follow everyone else? Riiiiight." is not a refutation of anything. It's at once mischaracterising my point (that you are failing to talk about anyone else, that you are failing to give proper reasons, etc etc.) I mean, there are several things you could do - you could try pushing your cases (give reasons, attack the player, etc), you could compromise and move to more successful wagons. AT THE VERY LEAST YOU SHOULD PAY ATTENTION TO THE GAME RATHER THAN JUST SOMEHOW DECIDE THAT BECAUSE YOU HAVE A LIST OF SUSPECTS THIS MAKES YOU IMMUNE TO CRITICISM. NEWSFLASH: IT HELPS TOWN WHEN YOU COMMENT ON STUFF.

I admit that Trotsky seemed more active earlier in the game, but I don't seem to recall Trotsky posting fluff exactly. Where do you believe he did this while early in the game?

Looking back, it's not really fluff. Just seemed that he was taking advantage of the RVS with the amount of posts he used. His exchange with Zaphod since I last posted is a similar situation.

I agree with your point about Trotsky's exchange with DGB. Not so much about the early game stuff.

Both made the ridiculous attempt of painting Frog Dodging as possessing confidence that they wouldn't die by taking their post out of content.

And how is it ridiculous and out of context (I assume you meant context and not content)?

Please see above.

In other news, since no one can see the obvscum in front of us,

Unvote Vote: Trotsky

. Better wagon than RW.

[Frog Dodging]

I gotta be honest here, this post will be mostly filler. I don't have anything to say, other than the fact that trotsky has used their opportunity to claim and should now be lynched. But I have no desire to be prodded, despite the fact that for various reasons neitehr me nor my partner are fully able to pay attention to this game atm. Please be patient with us.

Oh! I have been reminded to say that RW asked for a screenshot from J-scope, then attacked him for posting a screenshot - though honestly, that's just as likely to be sheer stupidity.

We have a low level suspicion of nyballs due to his suspicion list - he picked two of the top four suspets and his partner picked the other two, so all in all he's willing to lynch any of them. He blames poor communication for the discrepancy in his suspicions, but this is not a good excuse: it really isn't hard to find

some

to communicate. Use PMs if you must. Besides which, Kison is p. technically literate, he ought to be able to set up a quicktopic or something. We're much more suspicious of zmd, and below that trotsky. Worth noting but nothing more.

Waiting for a hammer/reveal.

[Frog Dodging]

137 was Jdodge, 138 was Shanba.

This one is also by Shanba: I mention this because this is the only game I am in atm, and due to upcoming V/LA difficulties the only one I can continue to commit to. So I'd rather it wasn't abandoned.

We're still in twilight, otherwise my vote would be on ZMD.

ZMD: How exactly did you come to your conclusions from that vote count analysis? It seems to me that you just picked names at random off the vote count and decided that these people are scummy. Honestly, I'm about done with arguing with you. There's nothing to argue against, just a whole load of bluster and OMGUS. When you saw Raging Wishbone's attack on us, did you even go back and read the post he was referencing? Or were you just happy to have mud to sling at us? Yeesh.

[Frog Dodging]

I am completely in agreement with Yosariwen about RW's last post. To dismiss a case against you as OMGUS is just lazy. J-scope's case is quite obviously rooted in more than the fact that RW is voting him, so it's not OMGUS. RW, I demand you respond to the points that J-scope made.

The only time I've seen yos-town lurk is in that game he linked to, short and sweet. Similar mechanics mean that he has an excuse for lurking here.

Following the word of others that blindly sounds like a form of scummy bandwagoning. If you actually cared to find scum, like all town should, I think you would have gone back and looked at things more closely than "I agree with RW"

Yeah, this. Though TBH I'm slightly uncertain about ZMD again. Still the best lynch today, IMO.

[Frog Dodging]

I am completely in agreement with Yosariwen about RW's last post. To dismiss a case against you as OMGUS is just lazy. J-scope's case is quite obviously rooted in more than the fact that RW is voting him, so it's not OMGUS. RW, I demand you respond to the points that J-scope made.

The only time I've seen yos-town lurk is in that game he linked to, short and sweet. Similar mechanics mean that he has an excuse for lurking here.

Following the word of others that blindly sounds like a form of scummy bandwagoning. If you actually cared to find scum, like all town should, I think you would have gone back and looked at things more closely than "I agree with RW"

Yeah, this. Though TBH I'm slightly uncertain about ZMD again. Still the best lynch today, IMO.

[Frog Dodging]

Thank fucking God. That severly reduces the pressure of each post.

Vote: ZMD

[Frog Dodging]

I'm gone for the weekend, and my partner hasn't posted for over a month in this thread. So don't expect anything form us until after the weekend.

[Frog Dodging]

Vote: zmd

I like the analysis of the lurking, particularly as regards to nyballs. They're very experienced players and it's unlikely scum would want to kill without their input.

[Frog Dodging]

Vote: zmd

I like the analysis of the lurking, particularly as regards to nyballs. They're very experienced players and it's unlikely scum would want to kill without their input.

How does your vote relate to the explanatory sentence below?

I would have thought it was pretty clear that it didn't.

[Frog Dodging]

Ok, I have to admit I'm struggling a little in this game at the moment. This is my attempt to actually make the game interesting again: I get the feeling we're suffering from serious drift. Also since I will be gone until next monday and my partner is not contributing I felt I'd better end on a high.

First off, DGB: I've been through why I suspect ZMD multiple times in this thread. It's been one of the main themes of my discourse. There's no reason I should have to reiterate everything just for my vote post, that makes no sense. ZMD should have been lynched yesterday and only RW's extreme stupidity saved them

I’m not very gung-ho about a ZMD lynch. He brought up a valid point against RW when it already looked like RW was going to be lynched, which tells me ZMD was trying to make the best choice and not just save his skin in that instance. I still don’t understand why RW pushed FD suspicion but that’s discussion for post-game.

No, actually, I completely disagree here. Scum who want to hop on a wagon are often reluctant to say "Yeah, I agree with x" for the simple reason that it looks bad. If they can come up with a plausible sounding excuse to wagon, then that's much better. Town are less worried, in general, about seeming plausible.

Furthermore, your characterisation of how the lynch went is balls. They brought up the point at a time when it was not certain that RW would be lynched. RW's idiotic actions got him lynched but ZMD pointing out these actions is not a point in their favour.

In other words, I agree with Ojanen.

The reason I originally suspected him, that he focused on secondary discussions and ignored the larger discussions at the time haven’t really continued with the way this game has progressed. He’s been more at the forefront now so maybe the tell is something to do with how he gets into the flow of a game.

This is more relevant.


I don't understand the J-scope hate. Does anyone have any relevant points against him at all or are you all just blowing steam? As for ZB, DGB is hitting my towndar hard, but I have no proof of that.

DGB seems to be honestly looking for scum. JScope seems happy to just ride through the game.

And this is just deranged. J-Scope may be riding through the game but it's not because he's content to do so it's because he's never been under any real pressure. His scumhunting effort, however, has been perfectly fine up to this point. Just because a player has yet to be suspected does not make them any more likely to be scum.

I need to take a closer look at the PTA/Ortohoops argument.

At the moment I just feel like we're rehashing old ground. Probably because yesterday's lynch was an "obvious" one, so we didn't get an extra day's content to analyse, and the wagon itself is not particularly informative. However, nyballs deserves a much closer look. First is a point my partner made in AIM chat:

We have a low level suspicion of nyballs due to his suspicion list - he picked two of the top four suspets and his partner picked the other two, so all in all he's willing to lynch any of them.

And indeed, he's used this position of leverage to first of all justify a leap on Trotsky (non-mafia) and then RW (non-mafia). His case on RW basically boiled down to "stop being stupid about FD" which I'm not convinced is a scumtell (stupidity, I mean) and I don't think should have wound up nyballs quite as much as it did. His reasoning for Trotsky is thin on the floor. Also, I'm not sure what gives them so much confidence in our towniness:

In light of the two serial killer flips, why do you only put Frog Dodging in the "Town Lean" category?

in particular is bizarre. Sure, we're not an SK and that disproves the only serious attack against us this game. But does that somehow make us confirmed town? I don't think so.

There are various other gut things that are hitting me (for example, internal narrative stuff - he is focused on that attack on me quite severely) which I can't say for certain is scummy and am not inclined to push. But I am very suspicious of nyballs at this point.

[Frog Dodging]

I ought to do something about this game now I'm back from holiday.

Most likely I will be voting nyballs. Gonna do a reread focused on Scope, ZB and PTA because ZMDtown throws off my worldview somewhat.

[Frog Dodging]

Oh the luxury of being able to doublepost.

I'm not doing it tonight.

[Frog Dodging]

Getting about halfway through this has so far reinforced my positions. In particular, I am p. certain that Ojando is town, and fairly certain that ZB is town. I am therefore looking for scum from the Ortohoops/PTA/J-Scope/nyballs.

In my partial reread Jscope and nyballs predecessor stuck out as /notgood on the very early wagons.

[Frog Dodging]

I get the distinct feeling that people aren't caring as much about this game as they ought to be. I think this game needs someone to get riled up or pissed off. How much do you all care about winning this game? Do you want to win?

[Frog Dodging]

Yeah, I'm just a little bit worried that players (and this includes myself) seem to be doing the bare minimum, probably as a result of the fact that no one is really psyched up about this game, and aren't particularly fussed whether we win or lose. No one will be screaming with anguish if we lose this game because no one has put a massive amount of effort in, apart from possibly one or two of the dead. That's a problem as that attitude massively favours scum, especially if our status quo is not hitting the scumbags: they can skate by. Posts like the one by nyballs last page should stick out like a sore thumb, but in the midst of all these people wading around looking lost it doesn't look any worse than some of the other posts, including some of my own. The complaints about ojando looking passive seem bizarre as everyone in this game is looking passive atm.

Furthermore, this setup discussion stuff, useful as it is (and I will be weighing in in a bit) is a distraction from the nitty gritty of scumhunting. Ortohoops hasn't made an attack on anyone today, or given us any thoughts about who he is feeling as scum.

My reread was partly meant to try and address some of this stuff by inputting a spark into the game but I'm not really feeling it at the moment. I did notice some interesting things but what I really want to look at is the evolution of the wagons, and I haven't got to the interesting wagons as of this instant. Today or tomorrow I will get there.

[Frog Dodging]

As for the setup speculation stuff:

If there is a roleblocker he should without a doubt come forwards now, and the fact that no one has makes me doubt there is one. Like a cop with a guilty, we're approaching the point where that sort of stuff really shouldn't be hidden.

As for a doc, I don't see a massive advantage in him coming forwards today over coming forwards tomorrow. I mean, a 50/50 is still better odds than we would normally get when trying to lynch scum, even slightly better than having the two confirmed innocents, especially when you consider that the claimed doc would instantly die. However, since any doc would have interesting information to share with the town, he really ought to be breadcrumbing yesterdays protection target.

[Frog Dodging]

Two which days do the targets correspond to?

I'm not sure. I'll check-back later, but I believe that's just the first three phases.

[Frog Dodging]

What I'm suspicious of: You checked nyb's targets earlier and commented on their convenience, and also specifically commented on one player in nyb's photoshopping etc. abilities. Which means you definitely looked at their protection receipts, which means you know all you have to do to find out whomever you targeted is look at your own protection receipts, and are now posting from your hydra account. Yet you are apparently still unsure of the timing of your targets?

Do you still intend not to post screenshots even while the other two claimed doctors have?

I think I've still got some stuff to respond to, I'll do that soon

May 26 and Jun 01 were the dates on my protections.

I will post screenshots if people demand that I post screenshots, but I feel that it shows nothing.

[Frog Dodging]

Jun 2. IIRC that was the end of one phase and start of the second, you might want to check. We might've spaced it and sent in two protects for the same phase accidentally, too.

First protect - http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q240 ... etass1.jpg
Second protect - http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q240 ... etass2.jpg
Third protect - http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q240 ... etass3.jpg

The following three are screenshots of a list of every program I have on this computer, showing that I have no good way of manipulating the prior screenshots:

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q240 ... etass4.jpg
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q240 ... etass5.jpg
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q240 ... etass6.jpg

[Frog Dodging]

Right, July. Can't read. No, it was sent in on the 2nd.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q240 ... etass7.jpg

[Frog Dodging]

From iso-check, seems Shanba clearly breadcrumbed on day 5 having protected Ojando for day 4.

Wrong, we'd been in agreement for a good long while that Ojando was almost certainly town; hence the Day 4 protect. You're making a connection that I don't think was there.

, because (A) I am not scum, and (B), they stalled when asked to complete their claim

Yep. I clearly stalled by providing the times in my next post after they were asked for, and I clearly stalled by providing screenshots when they were asked for by people other than you.

As per our ongoing suspicion through most of the game (or at least my ongoing suspicion, Shanba didn't share the same amount of zeal for it I have), I am plenty happy to place the vote on my longtime #1 suspect with a good ol

vote: nyball

.

@JDodge, do you know if Shanba did crumb any results anywhere?

I honestly don't know. All we ever discussed was everyone else, not our own posting.

Shanba said earlier that a doctor should crumb any results they have. Him being doc while suggesting others should crumb is a little odd. You think he wouldn't need to suggest it if he was one himself. That kinda seems contradictorary

1. We weren't the only trackers in alpha, we knew there could be more than one doc

2. It makes sense for a doc to try to find another doc, as this way we can protect them plus it allows us to cast less doubt on claims later.

Let the record state that my current suspect list consists of nyball, followed by J-Scope whom I've noticed is completely absent from this pivotal bit, and then a lingering suspicion of PtA that's nibbled at my shins since Day 1. I am about to send in a protect for Ojando, and hope that they will do the same to save us and hopefully set up an infinite protect circle up in this bitch.

[Frog Dodging]

I am about to send in a protect for Ojando, and hope that they will do the same to save us and hopefully set up an infinite protect circle up in this bitch.

What do you see as being the benefit of this?

Vote: Frog Dodging

I support this lynch over nyb, it's up to Ojando

It's simple.

Either I or nyball is getting lynched today. That is a certainty.

Ojando is likely to not be lynched and in my eyes likely to be a doc, hence I feel it prudent to protect them. If they protect us, that then makes sure that both the docs are safe. This also has the effect of removing a non-doc town role from play, thus further allowing us a better decision-making process tomorrow.

Basically, I have faith in Ojando being town, and feel that it's smarter for us to protect each other and play to the town's strengths as opposed to playing to the town's nothing.

I feel that it's more likely there is only 1 lying doc claim in this bunch, and that it is nyball.

[Frog Dodging]

And it comes down to J-Scope, which really sucks balls because it means that we as a town have likely lost already. Hooray!