Mini 780 - Chosen - Game over

[Lawrencelot]

Lawrancelot is not even in this game.

Vote: hp [leaves]

for purposely confusing the town.

[Lawrencelot]

1. no
2. less

Those 3 examples aren't really omgus because a) it's the random voting stage b) the voters do not really use it in a case

[Lawrencelot]

Those 3 examples aren't really omgus because a) it's the random voting stage

Do you believe RVS relieves culpability from all actions, or just OMGUS?

As long as nothing weird happens (only random votes), it relieves culpability from all actions, but not totally. Random votes can still mean something, I think they usually just mean too little to provide any results, because it's, you know, random.

And btw, my vote was not OMGUS, I voted hp because he spelled my name wrong.

[Lawrencelot]

What does 'using ellipses' mean?

And discussing theory is always better than staying in the RVS q21, I'd call anyone who opposes it scum sooner than anyone who uses it, unless it distracts anyone from scumhunting, which won't really happen in the RVS.

[Lawrencelot]

What started as a theory discussion has turned into a heated argument. I don't like the feeling I'm getting from all of this. I think scum lurking at the moment, trying to get us to kill each other off.

I would think the same thing, but it seems that everyone is active.

I don't get Claus, why he's supporting q21. I agree with post 54. Especially the 'scumhunting doesn't come from nowhere' part. I would like to hear both q21 and Claus's opinion on that.

I REALLY don't like how lawrence accuses q21 on post 44 without really accusing him. Feels like inciting the lynch mob from behind. Specially after the contentless 41.

I don't really understand what you mean. And I totally don't understand what post 41 has to do with it.

Btw, even though I'm with SL and Nuwen here, that doesn't necessarily mean I think they're town, or that q21 and Claus are scum, or even that I like discussing theory right now. We are having a disagreement, about whether discussing things helps the town or not (really, in what case does discussing things NOT help town, unless you reveal info unknown to scum?). So small FOS to all people voting someone else because of this discussion.

Unvote

for now, since it was random.

[Lawrencelot]

Normally, almost everyone looks town to me. This game, almost everyone looks scum to me. I agree with most things that are said about Ace, but Claus also looks pretty agressive to me. Unfortunately, from experience I know that being agressive is not a scumtell at all. Since these are my highest suspects at the moment, I'll

Vote: AceMarksman

. Mostly gut, but I don't have much more this early in D1.

[Lawrencelot]

I see Nuwen got what she wanted with her theory about OMGUS, but I still would like to add that my (random) vote wasn't even OMGUS, as you can notice from the post itself, so you were kinda chasing nothing there. I don't really think this is scummy though.

What I do find scummy is q21, Claus, and Ace's behaviour. q21 mostly because I disagree with everything he says, Claus for his first reaction to 'theory discussion' and his latest post, though in both these players I might be biased, I'm not going to vote anyone just because I think they're wrong.

Yes. Scumhunting doesn't come from nowhere. Theory discussion is another place where scumhunting doesn't come from. Making cases and questioning those cases is a much better place to generate scumhunting.

I disagree. Any discussion, including theory discussion, is a place to start scumhunting, for example by looking for inconsistencies, motivations, or scumtells in general. Normally, the RVS flows into a discussion about lynching lurkers, massclaim, questions for a specific player, or in this case, theory discussion. You can't make a case or question a case if there is no discussion. If you say we shouldn't talk about theory discussion, you should provide an alternative so that we have a source to look at.

Fos: Claus and q21

Post 41 is a big nothing. I call that "active lurking" - you post, but you don't contribute to the thread. 44 is another "nothing" post, but in it, you call people who hold a position similar to q21's as scummy, without accusing him. And this post is another "nothing" post, because you comment on the currents events without positioning youself.

Unless you're skipping like half of post 44, I was definitely positioning myself there.

When those things are not related to scumhunting. There is such thing as overloading the town to apathy with useless information.

I'd argue that there is no thing as useless information, besides things that are off-topic. Anything can be used for scum-hunting, if it isn't good for anything else you can just check if a post is consistent with the previous posts, or see what the differences are with the posts of the same player in a different game.

Wanted to post more about Ace, but I gottago. I'll try to make a case on him later.

Unvote

before that happens.

[Lawrencelot]

Post 108 is pretty similar to my thoughts on Ace. Plus that he keeps avoiding to attack hp, which would be consistent with his other posts. I do wonder though where 109 comes from, could you quote that scumslip for me springlullaby? Because I haven't noticed it.

I'm still not that sure about q21. I'll wait for his replacement to catch up and then reconsider. But for now,

Vote: AceMarksman

.

[Lawrencelot]

For the record, this is lynch -2. Not that a quicklynch is likely with these V/LA's.

[Lawrencelot]

To prevent me not having enough time to make a 'case' on Ace again, I'll start with that and respond to other things later. But first this:

I can't really recall which of you people I've played before, but on Day 1 there is only 1 thing I trust most, and that is my gut. Not that my gut is always right, it usually isn't because there are simply more townies than scum, but as long as there is no evidence at all, no facts from the mod, no known alignments, I'll be using my feelings and intuition more than analysises (sp?) and logic.

Thoughts on Aces posts
post 14: uses OMGUS in a RVS. A bit strange, but not much more. I prefer reasons that aren't reasons at all in a RVS, like 'he smells like scum'.
66: I don't know who was inactive at that time, but later others said that hp leaves was lurking there. Still Ace didn't mention anything about hp.
Discussion with springlullaby: what Ace says doesn't give me scummy vibes at all, mainly because he isn't saying much there. It's more like he is avoiding to say too much. I still don't know who he meant with lurking scum.
95: really don't like this post. 'I'm not talking because scum will lurk if I do'. Avoiding the discussion by voting someone else. Spring says this is a scumslip, but I still don't see how it is.
117: Responding to this below.
In overall, I get the feeling Ace is just trying to look like he's participating. That's enough for a day 1 vote, until someone else comes up as scummier. The main other people I find scummy are q21 and Claus, but like I said, that's mainly because I disagree with them. I'm not going to vote someone because they disagree with me, and certainly not considering my past experiences with agressive players. ABR is also messing with my scumdar, but iirc he plays the same way as always. Though I think I'd vote him sooner than Claus or q21. And populartajo doens't give me scum vibes at all.

@ law leaning scum: he jumped on my bandwagon here based on gut right at the moment my wagon is picking up steam. He then unvotes me (when my wagon is cooling off), promising a case (which has not come yet), and the re-votes me once my bandwagon picks up steam again. He hasn't made much of a case against me. He's being really opportunistic.

What a coïncidence, the sun rises just when it's getting light and it sets when it's getting dark! I mean, had I not done these things your description of your wagon would be very inaccurate at best. And although I can see what you mean about the first one, I didn't unvote when your wagon was losing steam, and not at all because of it. In fact, you were under more suspicion at the time I unvoted, see the responses to your post 95 (which you didn't respond to).

Lawrencelot, are you planning on thinking for yourself at any point?

I think for myself all the time, I just don't always know how to put it on paper (not literally), and even if I do I might be too lazy.

Law, why did you FOS q21 and Claus?

Because they gave me scum vibes, and I disagreed with them about theory discussion.

@Claus post 129: We're obviously at different wavelengths here. You mainly look after official votes and foses, and strong cases, I mainly look at discussions and motivations.

Are you saying I did not provide any alternative to Nuwen's theory discussion in my first analysis post? I posted one vote and two FoSes - I think that is alternative enough. This is at best OMGUS, and at worst misrepresentation.

I was talking about your earlier posts, both yours and q21's.

It is a funny way to definitely positioning oneself. I'd think that positioning oneself would entail hard, bolded votes. Not indirectly calling someone scum under the guise of theory discussion without even a FoS, while voting someone else.

I position myself by saying what I think. A vote only says who I think should be lynched, I just said who or what I think is scummy without using anything in bold.

[Lawrencelot]

Sorry, I was V/LA this weekend but couldn't post it here.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I do respect players who go by their guts and don't explain their votes all the time (*Waves to J-dodge and DGB*). But I expect those kind of players to be up-front about their style from the get-go, and take clear positions about who they think is scum.

You, on the other hand, posted this before you started getting pressured at all (you only had one vote from me):

Wanted to post more about Ace, but I gottago. I'll try to make a case on him later. Unvote before that happens.

So don't come to me with this "I go by gut" story, because this is not at all the way you were playing before.

Yes, and if I recall correctly, before that unvote I voted Ace based on gut. Since gut isn't going to convince anyone else, it only explains a vote, I always still need to make a case if I want to see someone lynched (which I suck at in general, especially D1s).

The quote you took from me was taken directly from my analysis post. That was my THIRD post in the game. Unless you are talking about my first post, which was a vote. Or my second post with was a question to ikeM about whether he found SL scummy or not.

So, which "previous post" of mine did not contribute to discussion?

You're right. In my memory you were siding with q21, but that didn't happen before that post. Post 43 was the first one but that wasn't your post. It's still scummy for q21 though.

If you say who you "think" is scummy, but don't vote for them, then I'll say you're lying. Unless you have a DARNED good reason, which isn't the case in 44.

How? There are tons of reasons why you wouldn't vote for someone while you think they're scummy. For example, when they're at L-1, when you find someone else even more scummier, when the lynch isn't likely, etc. I didn't vote there because I thought it was too early for it. I hadn't made up my mind yet on who should be lynched, and I find it irritating if people switch votes all the time because scummy things happen. Right now q21 is pretty high up my scumlist, populartajo is acting a bit less scummy though so my suspicion could become less.

Die scum die die die suck die!

Yep. You're definately one of those agressive players. Luckily you have a lot more to add than this.

@ABR: can you explain why you think pop/q21 is scum?

I think the cases on Ace and Lawrence are pretty weak; HP, even while absent, has proved himself remarkably anti-town. His week long V/LA alone is the most town damaging thing any player has done thus far. Combined with his unwillingness to address a majority of the game, I really do believe he's scum.

I disagree. V/LA is not a good reason to lynch someone. As long as he will address other things later, I don't see a problem (well it's a problem but probably not his fault). Or if he posted in other games during his V/LA.

So there's a deadline. I think I need to give this all some more thought.

Unvote

, might switch back to Ace later.

[Lawrencelot]

Right now q21 is pretty high up my scumlist, populartajo is acting a bit less scummy though so my suspicion could become less.

What you didnt like in q21?

Just his stance about theory discussion being the end of the world and not saying much else besides it.

[Lawrencelot]

Right now q21 is pretty high up my scumlist, populartajo is acting a bit less scummy though so my suspicion could become less.

What you didnt like in q21?

Just his stance about theory discussion being the end of the world and not saying much else besides it.

Can you prove q21 was not saying much else besides it?

You can see it for yourself. If you look at his posts in isolation, it's very clear. There are only about 5 posts of him so it won't take much time. I now realized you are using the same crap as q21:

Maybe if you hadnt posted all those things that generated an unncesary debate, we wouldnt be worrying about that.

It was no unnecessary debate. It was a good discussion which gave us a lot of content to look at.

I also disagree about spring and nuwen being agressive in general.

Also deadline is in 5 days and our votes are spread like shit.

I want everyone's thoughts in Lawrencelot, please. Our leading wagon.

If I hadn't unvoted I wouldn't even be the leading wagon. And there are 2 wagons with 1 vote less, and there are 1-vote wagons. Why don't you ask everyone's thoughts on everyone else?

Note, this is (another) point where my wagon is cooling off but law still gives excuse to jump right back on it when it picks up again.

You just don't make sense. I am re-evaluating my vote because deadline is coming soon. Be happy that I just decided to switch.

Vote: Populartajo

Just lynch poptajo he's the best candidate

You still didn't explain why.

[Lawrencelot]

And populartajo doens't give me scum vibes at all.

Right now q21 is pretty high up my scumlist, populartajo is acting a bit less scummy though so my suspicion could become less.

Vote: Populartajo

What changed?

All your posts between these latest two quotes.

[Lawrencelot]

Law is scummier for jumping on the Tajo-wagon blatantly to save his own ass.

You could say the same thing if I voted

any

other scummy person. That won't stop me from doing so though.

You're criticizing someone's vote while following their vote..?

I agree with the vote, not with the reasons, because there are none. I say he needs to provide them.

Can you be more concise?

Yes I could, but I just decided you're not the one I want to see lynched, so I'm not gonna bother (it's just the quotes of the post where I voted you).

I'm all up for a hp lynch now. Posts 185 and 187 seem

extremely

scummy to me, and I was only giving him the benefit of the doubt because I thought he would be more useful after having (re)read everything. Which didn't happen. ABR also still failed to explain his vote on tajo, and populartajo is infinitely more useful to the town than hp, even if he was scum.

Unvote: populartajo; Vote: hp; FOS: ABR

.

So show of hands from people willing to lynch ABR?

I would, but not today. Only if a hp lynch is not going to happen.

Preview: Ok I see ABR sort of explained why he wants to lynch tajo, so although his intuition is not going to convince anyone, I'm a bit more reluctant to lynch him. Another concern is that ABR is likely to be the chosen because he supposedly wouldn't be veto'd. Claus, if you take the veto into account, does your list of lynch candidates change?

I still feel safe with lynching hp. My list:

Good lynches:
hp

Not bad lynches:
Ace, ABR (if you don't take chosen stuff into account)

Worse lynches:
populartajo, no lynch?

Bad lynches:
rest

[Lawrencelot]

Strongly considering you to be scum with law, as I don't think law would have been veto'd.

How do you know I wouldn't be vetoed? And more importantly, how does that make me scum???

Tajo: ABR is not saying 'I'm so important', he's doing the opposite. He says he thinks he wouldn't be veto-ed, that means: he thinks that the scum thinks he's not that hard to lynch. You could both see this and saying 'I'm important, scum would veto me' as scummy behavior if you try hard, so I agree with Claus that discussion about that won't give us much result. Discussing about who we think would have been vetoed or not will only lead to wifom (I will use it in my own decisions though). But I do think that we should be more careful with who we are lynching, and if we have more options take the chosen mechanic into account.

[Lawrencelot]

I extend this question to everyone in this game.

Would you vote or would not vote someone that a)asks for your lynch for no reason at all (and push it hard for weak reasons) and b)asks you to vote him.

What would you have done if you were me?

Probably, yes, both as scum and town. I don't think your vote on him is scummy at all, nor is it protown or antitown. But remember the deadline.

Do I need to tell what's wrong here?

Yes please, mister.

Don't listen to the scumbag! Lynch him before deadline!

SHUT THE FUCK UP.

QFT lol. ABR once did the same thing against me in a game. He even claimed cop with a guilty on me while he wasn't even a cop just to get me lynched. It was so frustrating.

Albert explained his vote.

I know, I didn't hit preview yet.

How can tajo-scum be more useful than hp-town?

Have you seen anything useful from hp? Scum try to look town, remember. I am neutral on tajo now btw, leaning a bit more to scum than to town. hp is both scummy and antitown.

[Lawrencelot]

No. Bad. What the fuck. Living scum are never beneficial to the town, especially if they're active - active scum are not susceptible to lurker policy lynches and work to shape the opinion of the entire town.

I disagree entirely. First off, I'd never policy lynch a lurker unless there was no better alternative, because lurkers should be replaced and not lynched. Active scum post more content, both to look townie (and thus help the town in some sort of way) and to achieve their win condition (and thus drop possible scum tells and provide links to their partner(s)). An active scum is more useful to town than a non-active townie. Please note that this does not mean I think populartajo shouldn't be lynched, I prefer him lynched later in the game (if he is scummy then) when his flip would provide more information, and right now I prefer a hp lynch.


* Nuwen (1) Albert
* Lawrencelot (2): spring, Nuwen
* Albert B. Rampage (1): Lawrencelot
* Claus (1) Albert
* AceMarksman (2): spring, Lawrencelot
* populartajo (3): spring, Albert, Lawrencelot
* springlullaby
* ekiM
* hp [leaves] (3): spring, Nuwen, Lawrencelot

[Lawrencelot]

Yep, active scum are more _useful_ than a completely non active townie, insofar as the active scum is probably dropping scumtells we can use. Nevertheless if there is an IDENTIFIED active scum (or at least a heavily suspected one), lynching them is much higher priority than lynching the useless guy we are pretty sure it is a townie.

I agree entirely. That's why I'm fine with lynching tajo in general, but not so soon and not with scummier people around like HP (and also Ace and ABR, to some extent). HP is not just antitown for not contributing, he does it in such a way that it's scummy. If someone would keep saying "i'm busy, i'll post later" then it's not necessarily scummy.

Note: the rules say there's no lynch without a majority. So it's up to spring, ace, abr or tajo to hammer before deadline if we are lynching hp.

Mod: do you know the exact time of the deadline?

[Lawrencelot]

Didn't notice that link lol, that's cool.

[Lawrencelot]

I find it strange that I am the lynch for today while Claus (and maybe tajo) is the only one that made a case on me. Everybody posted their reasons for lynching hp (everyone who was voting hp) if I remember, but for example Ace and ABR just joined my wagon without good reasoning.

ABR, how am I playing for survival? Ace, why am I scummy?

If you guys think that hp is the chosen, fine, but then also say that you are almost certain that I am NOT the chosen. I myself can't say anything about that chance, because I don't know if the scum would have vetoed me, even without taking WIFOM into account. I don't really think hp has more chance of being the chosen than anyone else, so my vote stays there.

Don't lynch me, I have the most powerful protown role of the game