Mini 780 - Chosen - Game over

[Claus]

That's a very convincing argument.

Vote: Lawrancelot

[Claus]

ekiM - are you proposing that Spring is scum?

[Claus]

The votes on q21 are dumb. He is right and acting pro-townish.
ABR, aren't you ashamed of agreeing with SL's bullshit?

===

Nuwen's theory questions are spurious - she is starting from a misleading premise, and seems to be trying to shape the town's mind into a "one of these three is scum" mentality. The worse thing
is that she is not putting her chips in the table while doing that, by refusing to make a case based on her theory questions.

I want to see what kinds of insight in terms of who is scum and who is town Nuwen's questions have brought her so far.

===

SL's vote is bad. It is a disagreement vote, and not a scumhunting vote.

Also, she is misrepresenting q21, by saying he is not scumhunting. He is voting Nuwen and pushing a case, which is both scumhunting AND providing us with insights on q21's intention - much more than what Nuwen has done so far.

Also "bad lynch is still a lynch" is completely different from "people should not be accountable for their votes". Big misrep there. Vote patterns, even/specially in bad lynches are a great ways to hunt for scum.

===

I REALLY don't like how lawrence accuses q21 on post 44 without really accusing him. Feels like inciting the lynch mob from behind. Specially after the contentless 41.

I don't like how Ikem random votes twice (with an elaborate discussion post in the second random vote), then pulls the newbie card. I would loke Ikem to give us a "who I think is scum" list.


===============================================

for now:

unvote. Vote Nuwen

HoS: SL

FoS: Lawrencelot

We are out of the random stage now. I think we can all drop the theory discussion and start stating who we think is scummy and why.

[Claus]

I would never take you as a man to like theory discussion without a case to back it up.

[Claus]

Albert, what exactly are you backing Nuwen on? She is not voting q21, and did not show an intention to do so.

Are you voting q21 because he disagrees that theory discussion is good? Or is there another reason I'm not seeing yet?

[Claus]

Got a busy spell the last two days. Expect me to post in about 7~10 hours from now.

[Claus]

Ok. This is a quick catchup post. I thought I would have the night free. Fortunately, that is not the case After this post I'll be away until the 5th, and then back to usual. (I might get a post in tomorrow, don't count on it though).

=======

You seem to be saying that probably some of these three people are scum, because it is 100% the case that you are right and RVS OMGUS is a strong scum tell. Is it really so cut and dried?

Yeah, I was a bit boggled by that too. I share this mindset. I found Nuwen making a big deal of this weird. Specially because she seemed to actually believe what she was saying.

Assuming this is directed at me... I don't think I "pulled the newbie card".

Sorry for getting your name wrong. For some reason, it always come out "ikem" when I type it out. And I take back the "newbie card", I re-read the post to quote it, and now I see what you meant - you just don't seem to be that confrontational.

I'm also don't see what's wrong with voting for people who aren't saying anything, or how a six line post is 'elaborate'.

Hmmm. Unless you are going to tell me that the sole vote on a guy who hadn't posted at all yet was a serious case, for me your vote was a second random vote (=non-serious vote), and I don't like that. And a six line post is a bit big for a random vote.

Right now I am more interested in making sure everyone is involved in the thread, both so that they can help scumhunt if they are town, and so that scum aren't allowed to lurk.

I like this. What about Lawrence? Do you think he contributed more or less than HPLeaves as of that post?

===

66: Aceman -> Hoping he helps solving the problem he is (correctly) pointing out. (Extra: he didn't)

===

I don't get Claus, why he's supporting q21. I agree with post 54. Especially the 'scumhunting doesn't come from nowhere' part. I would like to hear both q21 and Claus's opinion on that.

Yes. Scumhunting doesn't come from nowhere. Theory discussion is another place where scumhunting doesn't come from. Making cases and questioning those cases is a much better place to generate scumhunting.

I don't really understand what you mean. And I totally don't understand what post 41 has to do with it.

Post 41 is a big nothing. I call that "active lurking" - you post, but you don't contribute to the thread. 44 is another "nothing" post, but in it, you call people who hold a position similar to q21's as scummy, without accusing him. And this post is another "nothing" post, because you comment on the currents events without positioning youself.

(really, in what case does discussing things NOT help town?)

When those things are not related to scumhunting. There is such thing as overloading the town to apathy with useless information.

===

Olé, the big guns already? This is kinda surprising.

Thanks The game needed a hard shake out of the RSV. (and my week was pretty shitty)

Do you agree with this?

Hmmm. Actually, I do, and you may be right that she was cut off too early. But from her responses to q21, it didn't look too likely. q21 had a better argument. Maybe I was bitchy.

It is a disagreement vote, and not a scumhunting vote.

I don't think that's true.

So what is your reason to vote q21 that is not based on the fact that he and Nuwen disagrees about theory? (real curiosity here)

Were did I say that he wasn't scumhunting?

Here:

when you say 'more scumhunting please' what exactly do you have in mind? I think your call here is entirely empty.

But if you take that back, then okay.

He said that the RSV stage would eventually lead to a lynch, which was be superior to theory discussion because it supposedly wouldn't.

RSV will eventually lead to a lynch. Which doesn't mean that the lynch will be random. Bandwagon, counter bandwagon, counter counter bandwagon. Much better than theory discussion.

a town which somehow never reaches a lynch because of theory discussion is a fiction I don't envisage ever happening

That is not the problem of Theory discussion. Scum can post "pro-town" things honestly without hurting their game with theory discussion. Also, theory discussion will delay a lynch and demotivate the town. Because of that, it is sub-optimal. I've seen both happen quite often enough.

so why do you sound so weary?

... Yeah, actually I was weary.

Because of a game I've been very recently lynched on. Can't really comment on it as it is ongoing, but if you read it I think you'll understand my rage.

And I differ on the assessment of q21 's post. I don't think it is extraordinarily scummy, but I don't think it as pro-town as you make it out to be.

Still you vote him. How strong is your vote?


===

77 - another disagreement vote from spring. hmm. Actually, I find that a bit pro-town.

80 - I have to remind myself to read some other games with this guy. I agree with this in principle (and I know I'm often guilty of it)

84 - This is the Albert that I know and love (still keeping an eye on you, though).

85- I feel this vote to be EXTREMELY opportunistic.

87 - This is much better from Nuwen. Nuwen, what do you think of Lawrence?

====================

Don't like Lawrencelot's 67. He is not contributing to scumhunting. My vote on Nuwen was an overreaction.

unvote: Vote Lawrencelot

- Die scum die!

I would like to invite others to share with me their opinions on how useless Lawrencelot has been (more or less than HPleaves/Ace?). Feel free to join me/try to convince me I'm wrong.

And with that I go on my trip. Hope I'll be less grumpy when I return!

[Claus]

Back from my trip. I'll re-read and post later.

[Claus]

Back, sorry for the delay.

@spring

Now, you say that my vote is a disagreement vote - what would you call q21's vote then?

A good vote on someone who was talking a lot but not making a clear case.

Not to appears unsympathetic or overly paranoid, but link please?

You're a big girl, you could just follow my profile, no? I'm not in that many games.

But bottom line is, it's one hell of a scumslip. So yeah, my vote is probably sticking, short of scum claiming scum.

I'm not seeing the slip. Can you be more explicit? // Ah, 109 explains it. Except it doesn't. I find it rather strange for a "sure scum" slip.


======

@lawrencelot

If you say we shouldn't talk about theory discussion, you should provide an alternative so that we have a source to look at. Fos: Claus and q21

Are you saying I did not provide any alternative to Nuwen's theory discussion in my first analysis post? I posted one vote and two FoSes - I think that is alternative enough. This is at best OMGUS, and at worst misrepresentation.

Unless you're skipping like half of post 44, I was definitely positioning myself there.

Really? Here is post 44

And discussing theory is always better than staying in the RVS q21, I'd call anyone who opposes it scum sooner than anyone who uses it, unless it distracts anyone from scumhunting, which won't really happen in the RVS.

It is a funny way to definitely positioning oneself. I'd think that positioning oneself would entail hard, bolded votes. Not indirectly calling someone scum under the guise of theory discussion without even a FoS, while voting someone else.

111: Hmmm, votes Ace, as promised. I would like a case though, since he promised one.

====

@Acemarksman

Claus seems to be leading ABR (scumcoaching?) in a lot of his posts, including where he asks why ABR is "Agreeing with SL's bullshit." He also aknowledges ABR's lack of response to my question, but writes it off (and even gives it a slightly pro-town spin) as meta.

pffffft.

I actually joined this game because I really wanted to play with Albert. We recently had a bragging session on IM about our scumhunting abilities. It would be hilarious if we ended up scum together, but alas this is not the case But yeah, expect a lot of coaching between us.

I'm sad that he is currently V/LA, that makes the game a little less fun to me.

Regarding 103, my impression from the current list of players is that we won't have a quicklynch. The person who dies today will have a slow and agonizing death at L-1. So don't freak out if someone is put at L-2; L-2 is great: more voting record for us to analyze D2.

As for town-seeming players: you and newen are playing a good town game, and ekiM hasn't given me anything to complain about. hp [leaves] is slightly scummy for his cronic lurking, law is leaning scum at the moment.

With Me, Albert, Hp and Law in your scumlist, that is 4 scummy players for two scum. Why do you think me/albert are more scummy than HP and/or law?

Oh, you're voting law now. Okay. Still, knowing roughly the order of your scummy list, and simple reasons for it would be useful to follow your cases.

====
@Nuwen

"At least one of these players is town" is not equivalent to "x number of these players are scum." Spring caught on and recognized that in an open setup with two scum, any one of three players must be town.

Of course, from a logical point of view I understand it. But mafia is not all about logic, it is also about mob mentality. Don't underestimate how easily the town can fall in a "so, we must lynch X or Y today, right?" mentality.

Regarding your HP case. HP is just a lurker, can't really call him scummy yet (I have not read other people's interactions with him though, just his isolated posts). I wouldn't be opposed to a HP lurker lynch, but right now I think shaking down the Law tree looks more promising. Maybe we can get the mod to replace HP?

Do you think Lawrence is scum? Do you think he is a good lynch for today?

===
@Tajo

Hooray! Another one for the LaWagon!

Why is spring more townie than Nuwen? I would exchange them in your list. I would also put Mike and ABR down to neutral.

=========

Currently:

- Still liking my Law vote.
- Still liking my Spring HOS

=====

PS: I'm mostly skipping all the "Theory is the suck!", "No it is not!" comments from different players, as I feel they're (finally!) irrelevant. Please speak up if you still want to talk about theory so I can give you a good whacking.

[Claus]

The lesson today is: "How to get a floundering scum contradicting himself"

Step 1:

on Day 1 there is only 1 thing I trust most, and that is my gut. (...) as long as there is no evidence at all, (...) I'll be using my feelings and intuition more than analysises (sp?) and logic.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I do respect players who go by their guts and don't explain their votes all the time (*Waves to J-dodge and DGB*). But I expect those kind of players to be up-front about their style from the get-go, and take clear positions about who they think is scum.

You, on the other hand, posted this before you started getting pressured at all (you only had one vote from me):

Wanted to post more about Ace, but I gottago. I'll try to make a case on him later. Unvote before that happens.

So don't come to me with this "I go by gut" story, because this is not at all the way you were playing before.

Step 2:

Are you saying I did not provide any alternative to Nuwen's theory discussion in my first analysis post?(...)

I was talking about your earlier posts, both yours and q21's.

Really? This is the post where you say I was not contributing:

Yes. Scumhunting doesn't come from nowhere. Theory discussion is another place where scumhunting doesn't come from. Making cases and questioning those cases is a much better place to generate scumhunting.

I disagree. Any discussion, including theory discussion, is a place to start scumhunting, for example by looking for inconsistencies, motivations, or scumtells in general. Normally, the RVS flows into a discussion about lynching lurkers, massclaim, questions for a specific player, or in this case, theory discussion. You can't make a case or question a case if there is no discussion.

If you say we shouldn't talk about theory discussion, you should provide an alternative so that we have a source to look at

. Fos: Claus and q21

The quote you took from me was taken directly from my analysis post. That was my THIRD post in the game. Unless you are talking about my first post, which was a vote. Or my second post with was a question to ikeM about whether he found SL scummy or not.

So, which "previous post" of mine did not contribute to discussion?

Step 3:

I position myself by saying what I think. A vote only says who I think should be lynched, I just said who or what I think is scummy without using anything in bold.

If you say who you "think" is scummy, but don't vote for them, then I'll say you're lying. Unless you have a DARNED good reason, which isn't the case in 44.


======

Die scum die die die suck die!


But before you do, please use your gut to tell us what do you think about each player so far. Who is scummy/neutral/pro town? 1 or 2 line reasoning in it? We're gonna use it to find your scumbuddy tomorrow, so think carefully before posting.

[Claus]

Not to appears unsympathetic or overly paranoid, but link please?

You're a big girl, you could just follow my profile, no? I'm not in that many games.

This is irregular. Why make me do the work if you can alleviate my suspicions in a matter of seconds?

If you were really interested in knowing whether I was lying or telling the truth, you could very easily have done the fact checking yourself after my last post.

The fact that you didn't tells me that you're not really interested in the answer to the question you made.

[Claus]

MOD:

HP leaves said he was away until saturday. It is sunday. How about prodding him, and maybe looking for a replacement?

[Claus]

I'm kinda torn about q21. My gut says he's scum while I haven't caught anything in his posts except this:

Yes. Out of RVS and into another equally, if not more, useless stage.

That's twice you've called microscopic meta useless.

The underlined is a gross misrepresentation. I said nothing about the value of meta, whatever titles you want to put on it. I've said that I do not believe that the discussion of meta is useful to helping the town find the scum. There is a place for that kind of thing... the Mafia Discussion forum.

Trying to misinterpret. Nothing major but scum use this all the time. Going with my gut here.

Huh? What is he trying to misinterpret HP?

And what do you think of Lawrence, Spring, and Ace?

I just got a little bit more willing to vote HP-leaves.

[Claus]

You brush off something I found slightly bizarre in your play by invoking some vague emotional context;

This is incorrect. You asked me if I was weary, and I said "yes, actually I am", and provided a reason. I was not brushing off anything you said with that answer.

I ask a link from you to see whether I'm going to dismiss my point,

then you tell me that you are in so few games that I could probably just look for it myself, and then I tell you that I find it "irregular"

and you turn my asking into something seemingly scummy.

The steps in red are missing. I found it scummy the fact that you seemed suspicious of my "do your own homework" line.

...Why?

Because I

do

find the way you are asking me about it scummy - and I already found you scummy for other reasons before in this game. I was giving you rope to see how long you want to pursue this little charade.

The games I play are public information. If you were town, and thought I were lying for scummy motives you could have easily enough checked that information and confronted me with it. Turns out you didn't. So why are you bringing it over and over? (My guess: I think you are you trying to throw mud to see if it sticks)

Anyway. It is an ongoing game. Shaft.ed's "Saving Nasubi". Now do you really want to be discussing it in this thread?

===

On a lighter note, I thought you were asking me just out of nicety - I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition!

[Claus]

Also there is something that doesnt feel right. Nuwen and spring both are very agressive against everyone else except against each other.

Am I the only one noticing this?

You're not the first one to have noticed it. (Can't bother to check who did it first right now, I think it was around page 4 or 5).

Personally, I'm chalking this up to girls taking it easy on each other. I would put some money on scum-town buddying up. I don't see a scum-scum buddying right now (too many better scum outside the pair)

[Claus]

And as an addendum, 163 breaks the "spring and nuwen don't go against each other" thing.

[Claus]

*sigh*

This game is hard.

Tajo does not look like scum. The way he has contributed, and his questions and discussions. I don't get the q21 hate. Also, the three votes come from players who are scummy, lazy or both.

HP is one of the reasons I stop enjoying mafia games. Either he is scum, or he is a townie who just doesn't give a fuck about trying to put some effort into the game, and drag the rest of the town down with him.

ABR should know better than playing the "macho I don't give reasons for my suspicions" three days away from the deadline.

FOS: ABR

Law is scummier for jumping on the Tajo-wagon blatantly to save his own ass.

Springe/Ikem

, what do you two think of the Law wagon?

Tajo, Ace

, would you switch your vote to HP if we can't pul a Law lynch?

Right now I'm willing to vote either law or HP by the deadline. I would prefer a Law lynch, though.


Also, in a surprising turn of events, I am lifting my moratorium on ABR votes. I was giving him a free pass partly because I was hoping to have a more interesting game with him around. Got myself disappointed. So show of hands from people willing to lynch ABR?

[Claus]

* Albert:

Thanks for the contribution. I think Tajo did came out a bit weak in last page's exchange with you. I'll re-read Tajo tonight, but I'm not convinced.

* Replying a bit to your arguments (and a bit to Law's questions):

You know (from before this game even) that I abhor setup discussion early in a game. In the case of this particular game, town has no way to know who is the chosen, or who are the veto'ed people - so it seems to me that this discussion will contribute very little, if any, to the town - It will be nothing but guesswork and distractions.

My opinion is that its best for town to deal with this setup as if it were a 7:2 montanious game. The Chosen One is just a perk.


======

Will answer more questions later today.

[Claus]

You also need to stop and cool off Tajo. Your rage is not helping you or the town.

By the way, sorry all for the delay - I'll try a re-read now.

[Claus]

Did a quick re-read. (Not as much time as I had wished).

Ace does not strikes me as too scummy. He has posted his opinion on different players, and making connections. His play is far from perfect, but so far better than that of [HP] or Law.

Q21 got into an angry debate with nuwen/spring, but I don't see his posts as scummy. I have re-read Tajo, and I REALLY don't see what is wrong about him. I would like someone to explain it to me in very simple words so I can understand. That would probably take a lot of time, so maybe we can do it on D2.

Leaves: - His vote on post 8 is terrible. He puts a bandwagoning vote based on a very old post, partially misrepresenting it, and ignoring a lot of recent info. And calls it "nothing major". 11 is scummy, and show a carelessness that disturbs me.

==

Due to deadline, people not seeing Law as scummy as I see him, scummy lurkiness, and a general opposition to a Tajo lynch, I'll

unvote: Vote hp-leaves

But I urge you all to consider that my birthday is exactly one month from today, and it would be a great birthday present to have Law lynched today. Thanks.

[Claus]

I don't think hp leaves is a good idea guys.

Do you want to join me on a Law wagon instead then? I'm not too hot on a Tajo lynch, but I'm open to other ideas.

[Claus]

Are you guys REALLY sure we can't just lynch law today? *sigh*

Yep, active scum are more _useful_ than a completely non active townie, insofar as the active scum is probably dropping scumtells we can use. Nevertheless if there is an IDENTIFIED active scum (or at least a heavily suspected one), lynching them is much higher priority than lynching the useless guy we are pretty sure it is a townie.

I quite agree with Nuwen's "let's play this 7-2", I think I have even said that before. I am also highly intrigued by your "opportunism wagon D1" idea and want to subscribe to your newsletter - I'll probably try that in my next game.

Spring, about your question regarding my HoS'es of you, don't worry, you are in my scummy list. I just thought that Law was more scummy than you and decided to go for him first. And now we're one day before the deadline I'm not voting a wagon that just won't happen. But hey, tomorrow is a new day, I'll re-read you with new info and if I don't change my mind, I'll make a case against you if it makes you happy


* Nuwen (1) Albert
* Lawrencelot (3): spring, Nuwen, Claus
* Albert B. Rampage (2): Lawrencelot, Claus
* Claus (1) Albert
* AceMarksman (2): spring, Lawrencelot
* populartajo (3): spring, Albert, Lawrencelot
* springlullaby (1): Claus
* ekiM
* hp [leaves] (4): spring, Nuwen, Lawrencelot, Claus

[Claus]

Yay!

unvote: Vote lawrencelot

I should be back here later.

[Claus]

I would really like to hear Spring's thoughts on all of this before the day ends. Spring has been missing all the fun with her vote parked on Ace.

Also, I "should" be able to post something again in 12 hours from now, but no guarantees.

[Claus]

WRONG. No-lynch is far better, wtf is wrong with you?

Strongly disagree Albert. Your play is based on the assumption that we should do whatever we can to avoid lynching the Chosen one, even things that will put the town in a worse condition.

I say that while we need to avoid lynching the Chosen one, there are quite reasonable chances that we may do it by mistake - there is just not enough information for us. We should concentrate on putting the town in a good position to still be able to even in case that happens.

[Claus]

Yes. Yes. I know I'm a great scumhunter. You may all stop thanking me now.


Bah, go town!

[Claus]

Has scum ever won this?

Not that I'veseen.

Mike should have been lynched on page 1 of the final day.

Totally this. This last day was painful to follow Great job trying to confusing the others, Jahudo!

[Claus]

Oh, and MVP to Nuwen!