Mini 167 - Les Miserables Mafia. Game over!

[LordKrishna]

Hi, all. I've read the book, not seen the play, though I do know some of the music (I assume that by 'the play', you all mean the musical...?).

I agree with MeMe, breaking the set-up of a game is no fun. I've not seen a Mass Claim happen (cuz I'm still a newb), but I can't imagine that such a game would be fun to play... and ain't that the point, folks?

-K

[LordKrishna]

Whew! It seems like there's been a lot of speculation flying every which way about the setup:, the numbers, the roles, and such, but nobody has mentioned the possibility of the Mafia being the underworld figures -- Montparnasse, Claquesous, Gueuelemer, and Babet.

Just thought I'd throw that out for those who feel like over-analyzing the setup. I don't even remember them from my reading of the book -- clearly, it has been too long!

-K

[LordKrishna]

I don't think a whole lot of people have been posting prolifically, MeMe. I put it to you that in addition to me and gootentag, Mr Stoofer and vikingfan are also less 'post-happy' than, say, LoudmouthLee (the rather obvious explanation being that he's a Loudmouth), or you (who wish to call attention to yourself, shouting 'Me! Me!', I suppose?), or EmpTyger (who is a Tyger, and would therefore be noticed just about anywhere!). <ducks>

Apologies for lame humor above.

At any rate... a couple of good reasons for my relatively short posts.

1) I am afraid of getting targeted by the Mafia too early. I haven't lasted longer than Day 2 in any game so far (1st game -- everyone lost in Day 2, 2nd game, I got night-killed on Night 1!), so I'd really rather not give them any reasons to slit my throat in the night (or perhaps

garotte

me, given this setting?) <smile>

2) I'm not quite sure I'm following the level of discussion that's being bandied about on this board, to put it simply. There's been an amazing amount of posts by only a few people, as I see it, each nitpicking on tiny points made by each other.

Now, I realize that that's essentially how a Mafia game works, where you try to sniff out the scum by the slightly 'off' scent of their posts, but I keep wondering why people cite things as 'evidence' of being scum or as 'facts' -- so far, no one really looks a huge amount like scum to me (in sharp contrast to another game I'm in, in which *everyone* looks like scum to me!).

Here is my understanding of the situation:
Basically, EmpTyger looked pretty scummy to me, up until Post 59, in which he made what looks to me to be a pretty solid defense of his actions. Particularly the part about the 'dual-SK vs. Mafia' issue, in which he defends himself against Mr Stoofer. It is true -- I had sort of understood EmpTyger to mean what Mr Stoofer was saying, that there was 'No Mafia' (which seemed a ludicrous, and possibly dangerous claim to make). Now I realize he was really talking about the possibility of 2 separate SKs (which I now realize must mean 'Serial Killer'! ). This basically amounts to the same thing.

This is what the votes are (as related by Victor Hugo/Aelyn in post 58

EmpTyger - 2 (Mr Stoofer, LoudmouthLee)
Gootentag - 1 (MeMe)
MeMe - 1 (vikingfan)
LoudmouthLee – 1 (Emptyger)

I will attempt to analyse why each person is voting for whom they are.
EmpTyger and LoudmouthLee have a vendetta going at present, so their votes are on each other. EmpTyger has made a number of long posts, some of which people have taken issue with, because he made some bizarre and unclear statements, and I think it's because of this that Mr Stoofer, too, is voting for him.

MeMe, you have a vote on you from vikingfan, which is still the initial random vote he placed on you at the beginning of the game (he has not indicated anything about other reasons to do so, so I'll assume his reason is that he doesn't wish to change his early random vote until he's sure that he knows).

Now, MeMe, you still seem convinced that it's gootentag (from your vote), but the last post you made in which you mentioned him was post 40, and what you said was

gootentag's last post makes me happy to keep my vote on him.

What is puzzling to me is -- I have no idea what he said in that post to make you suspicious. (Unless you are referring to his point about even Jean Valjean possibly being Mafia...??) I still haven't seen an answer from you about whether or not your vote on gootentag was random or not (EmpTyger and Mr Stoofer both have asked you about this same point, but your response has not mentioned at all what your reasons were, if any).

As for me, I have no idea of whom to be suspicious, as there aren't a whole lot of *clear* reasons why people are voting for whom they are. Now, if anyone wants to attempt to convince me to vote for a particular person, it will take a great deal of work on their part. I do NOT want to lynch an innocent. It does not fit with my ethos.

-K

[LordKrishna]

Apologies for last post's verbosity.

/off until tomorrow night.

-K

[LordKrishna]

LML:
I figured the joke was so bad everyone would want to lynch me for it, and I just didn’t want to get voted out over some lame “<ducks>” humor. ::rimshot::

Holy crap, that's totally lynch-worthy...

<snip>someone trying to be silent is suspicious. At best, you give the mafia an excuse to remain silent. At worst, you draw the town’s suspicions onto yourself, and they kill you.

Ah, I see. This is called 'lurking', and it means something like: waiting around to see what has been posted by others, to try to mimic it, rather than posting one's own impressions. And I gather further that this is actually a good Mafia tactic?

vikingfan:
4 posts, all short. To summarize:<snip>
I’m not as anti-speculation as others in this game, but speculation by itself does not count as contributing. Honestly, my biggest surprise is that MeMe missed you in [62] when she noted Krishna and gootentag had been keeping low profiles.

I mentioned this earlier, in my posted reply to MeMe:

I put it to you that in addition to me and gootentag, Mr Stoofer and vikingfan are also less 'post-happy'

but it didn't seem to raise an eyebrow from her. This looks rather odd to me, that she'd miss out on that, after having made such an exhaustive search on the rest of us.

-K

[LordKrishna]

Well, the reason why I haven't been voting is because I've voiced my opinion on the current discussion (don't outguess the mod) and nothing else besides that is happening.

Your opinion as stated has been "Don't outguess the mod," but your actions, as EmpTyger has pointed out, have been outguessing the mod on things like setup of roles and characters, etc.

Even if this is not suspicious, it is certainly inconsistent, and you repeating the phrase "Don't outguess the mod" has gotten a bit tiresome, particularly as no one is trying to do so, but is rather, trying to draw out scum.

FOS: vikingfan

.

Post something with your opinions, and maybe I'll stop pointing.

-K

[LordKrishna]

I've tried posting as well. and found the Forum has not taken it... strange.

At any rate, vikingfan, your latest post has done nothing to clear up my suspicion of you -- you again mention your trite phrase of "not outguessing the mod," again in flagrant disregard of the fact that no one is doing so. And you have not responded to any of a number of direct queries aimed at you by me and others.

at least 2 people can verify me

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean, but I sincerely doubt that you have knowledge of two other players' roles, and no game setup I've ever heard of has three cops.

Based on all this, I am changing my FOS to a VOTE --

vote: vikingfan

-K

[LordKrishna]

I've tried posting as well. and found the Forum has not taken it... strange.

At any rate, vikingfan, your latest post has done nothing to clear up my suspicion of you -- you again mention your trite phrase of "not outguessing the mod," again in flagrant disregard of the fact that no one is doing so. And you have not responded to any of a number of direct queries aimed at you by me and others.

at least 2 people can verify me

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean, but I sincerely doubt that you have knowledge of two other players' roles, and no game setup I've ever heard of has three cops.

Based on all this, I am changing my FOS to a VOTE --

vote: vikingfan

-K

[LordKrishna]

Ack! This time, it just went over to the next page.

Apologies for the double-post.
-K

[LordKrishna]

Does no one think there's any possibility that Marius and Enjolras could be Mafia?

I'll admit, it doesn't seem terribly likely to me, given how much I sysmpathize (out of game, of course) with the revolutionaries, and in particular, Gavroche, but in the context of the setup, isn't it possible to have the two of them be the two Mafia?

Or, consider the possibility that the Marius/Enjolras mason group might win by recruiting people to their cause? (Having never played in a game with a mason group before, I am not entirely sure how this would work, but...)

Now, as for the 'Send Eponine searching for Cosette' thing -- it seems pretty clear to me that this makes Cosette a prize for some reason. I posit that the reason that Cosette is so important is that Marius wins by having Enjolras recruit Cosette into the Revolution (aka the mason group).

In this case, we don't know if this means a Pro-Town win or not. Perhaps if the Masons win, BOTH the Mafia and the Town lose...?

For these reasons, I don't think I will withdraw my vote as yet, especially as enough people have withdrawn theirs to put vikingfan in no immediate danger.

More experienced players, please let me know what you think.

-K

[LordKrishna]

Damn -- gootentag posted while I was composing my thoughts (and my message!), making some of my post redundant (though not all!).

It conforms my suspicions, though, that a Mason group might not be all good (read: Pro-Town).

-K

[LordKrishna]

I have no affiliation with gootentag, or indeed with any other member of the town.

The idea of them being anti-town just doesn't work for me, especially since their strategy of claiming to be pro-town masons would be hugely dangerous on Day 1 (the moment one dies, their alignment will be revealed and the other will be lynched).

No, it wouldn't be dangerous to them -- remember, vikingfan was in mortal peril, so by revealing his mason group, he saved his own life. That was a good play on his part, if he's not scum. My question is not whether he is scum, but whether the Mason group has a different aim than the town. Vikingfan has not answered this (to my knowledge).

...surprising that they are both still pursuing them.

Stoofer, where do you see me pursuing anyone? I had only made ONE post about this Mason group (not including my "WTF? Gootetag is posting something similar at the same time?!" post).

I am not terribly suspicious of VF and CB being Mafia (unless they cooked up an elaborate plan beforehand ), but I just don't understand this Mason thing very well (having never seen it before). As only two other players have weighed in with their answers --

and one of them is an accused party

-- I don't really think I have a lot to go on, in the way of an answer. I tend to be suspicious of 'Weird' roles, and what's more weird than a secret society? Therefore, I'm not yet willing to vote for someone else. Again, it doesn't look to me that vikingfan is in any danger of being lynched at present, so my vote stays until I have reason to pull it off (to go elsewhere).

It strikes me that my real question is: Is our only goal to hunt down Mafia, or to also eliminate other possibly adverse influences on the town? If it's only Mafia, then I say we keep looking elswehere, as they're no likely to be scum. If we should also be taking down Zombies, Cults, Were-Rats, etc., then we should continue to mull the new information we have about the Mason group until we have a decision.

To prove that I'm not scum, I would be willing to vote for anyone at all (again, I am unwilling to vote without a good reason to do so, and no one seems overtly Mafia just now, so I want to get everyone's thoughts on the matter -- MeMe and EmpTyger have not yet weighed in on this topic, and I'd like to hear their thoughts as well).

-K

[LordKrishna]

Is that, indeed, the subject about which you were asking, LK? Seems odd, if so. Why would you need everyone to comment on something easily answered by one?

No, of course not. Vikingfan has misread (or is misconstruing) my question, which is evident in my last post:

It strikes me that my real question is: Is our only goal to hunt down Mafia, or to also eliminate other possibly adverse influences on the town?

I was also asking what people had seen in other Mafia games involving a Mason group -- to me, the entire concept of a 'secret society' seems only 1 brief step away from that of the Mafia. Therefore, I wonder if the Masons might in fact have a different goal in mind from that of the town. After all, the town wishes to live in peace and harmony in La Belle France, whereas these revolutionaries may wish to 'incite revolution'. I am simply worried that in ignoring the existence of these two, potentially also dangerous men, we will be trying to seek out one threat, while we allow another into our very hearts!

Of course, something no one has yet brought up is that it may also be possible that the Masons ARE our power roles... Unless we have a doctor or cop (and while we might suspect that there is a Javert cop, or maybe a non-Javert cop,

no one

has mentioned a possible doctor, IMHO). In this case, we'd

want

to have them around as long as possible...

So, MeMe, as a more experienced (and if I'm not mistaken, the most experienced) player here, would you mind telling me if it seems feasible, given the setup of the game, that the Masons might be another non-Town-aligned faction, or that they might BE the power roles we have?

-K

[LordKrishna]

Thanks, MeMe for the insightful commentary. These are all good reasons to take my vote off.

UNVOTE

-K

[LordKrishna]

People seem to be misunderstanding my intentions, so I thought I'd clarify a few points brought up in recent posts.

There’s something about this sentiment, the stated willingness to vote for *anybody* to prove something, that feels a bit off. Like there’s too much desperation to appear to seem innocent.

No. You are deliberately leaving out the second part of this assertion, which is that I absolutely will not vote on someone without proof. Further, EmpTyger, anybody who is Pro-Town (I guess except for the Masons?) *should* be willing to vote for absolutely anybody, *IF* given proof of their guilt.

Um? No one *should* mention a possible doctor... that kind of has a negative effect on their effectiveness/lifespan.

I didn't say that someone should claim, or anything of the sort. I mentioned that there was no talk of a possible character in the book who could be a doctor. This is very different. I meant by it that I think it quite likely that there is, in fact, no doctor, and that the Mason group might be Pro-Town on the grounds that if we were to have no doctor or cop, the Masons would be our power roles.... This is why I took my vote off them.

LordKrishna, you seem to be jumping at the slightest noise that might not be good, even after it's been explained (several times).

Once again, this is not true. I have jumped only once (Look back over all the posts), and it was at something that should have seemed suspicious even to you. I mean, what the hell does 'incite revolution' mean to you, if you think it's a good thing? Again, I've taken off my vote, as I think it's not worth worrying about with the Mafia still lurking about, but it just seems weird to me. It would really help if you offered your insight on this specific point. (Which, by the way, has not been explained a single time, much less "several times").

Furthermore, this looks weird to me:

So is it worthwhile trying to recruit LML as Cosette tonight?

The recruitment thing doesn't sound good for the town. I cite as a recent example a live game I played, in which there were two werewolves (Mafia), a Guardian Angel (doctor), and a Seer (cop), as well as a Zombie Master. The reason I bring this up is that the Zombie Master, by night, would try to recruit people to his cause, and if the zombies outnumbered the town, they won, and both Town and Werewolves lost.

Is there a way Town can tell Masons to promise not to recruit anyone, as a show of good faith?

-K

[LordKrishna]

In my roleclaim, I received no info about any masonry. This is news to me. Especially coupled with the fact that you "voted your love"...

I'm going to upgrade my FoS now. I'm still worried about MeMe, honestly... but for now...

Unvote, but IGMEOY: MeMe, Vote: VikingFan

I have no idea why you are doing this. The previous post you made had a vote on MeMe and Fingers pointed at EmpTyger (which you didn't explain) and vikingfan. Now, you switch from MeMe to vikingfan, seemingly randomly, and don't mention your FOS on EmpTyger again. I'd like to know more about your reasons for voting and pointing the FoS.

For those wondering why there is no counterclaim, I think of it like a doc-why counterclaim day 1 and out yourself?

Because it would be nothing like a doc -- it'd be like a cop having full knowledge of a person's guilt. In the event that someone can prove that someone is scum, then isn't it always worth it for them to sacrifice themselves to get the town lynched?

-K

[LordKrishna]

A few comments, EmpTyger:

Gah, too much power claimed on the town side...

<snip>So now we've got 2 masons and a person that's unnightkillable. That seems way too powerful for a 9-man game. If all this is true, I'm guessing we're probably missing either a cop or a doc.

Or that [at least] one of the claims is false...?

Perhaps there are also 3 Mafia? (!)

Even if they’re effectively a cop, they're still a doctor.

I've read this a few times, but I honestly have absolutely no idea what you mean by this!!

How are we also supposed to factor in the possibility of an unnightkillable claiming doctor?

I am again unclear on why you bring up a doctor at all. LML is claiming (perhaps I'm wrong?) to be an un-night-killable Townie, but makes no mention of being a Doctor.

LML, I too am very eager to hear you answer Bob's questions.

I must say, I still do find it really weird that Marius and Cosette are fighting...!

-K

P.S. This is unrelated, I suppose, to the discussion, but MeMe, I think you read LML's point wrong here:

and, PS: I'm *not* a mason with Viking. He needs to find me.

Maybe he needs to find a different witty girl to go to his bed.

And though I'm pretty sure this was an attempt at humor...I'll just point out that in no way could Cosette be characterized as either witty or likely to go to bed with anyone other than Marius.

I think LML isn't saying that Cosette would go to bed with another man, but that Marius is looking for another girl. Opposite of what you thought. I don't think this affects anyone's suspicion of LML, but I just thought I'd clarify the point for anyone else who got confused by this exchange earlier -- something was bugging me, but I wasn't able to figure it out 'til now.

[LordKrishna]

Thanks, MeMe and EmpTyger for your clarifications. I now understand where you stand.

I'm leaning more on MeMe's side

in re:

LoudmouthLee -- it seems to make sense to me why he would claim in that particular manner, especially as the Town had just seen a Mason group claim and say that they were Pro-Town. Perhaps he felt that claiming his character would convince us of his innocence (thinking that if Marius and Enjolras are Pro-Town, then surely so is Cosette) -- this seems to have backfired on him a bit, though! It also *could* make sense for him trying to draw Mafia fire by not telling them that he's unkilable.

The other possible explanation, that he is scum, and constructed all this as a means of establishing credibility, just doesn't seem to add up to me. He is almost certainly going to be investigated by the Masons (and possibly a cop?), and so, if he were scum, he'd be dead meat tomorrow. (Basically, I think it a ridiculously stupid way to draw attention to himself if he were scum). I'll still be watching out for Cosette, though. Who knows if she has a dagger hidden up her sleeve...?

I still don't get why LML has switched his voting patterns (as I noted in my last post), so I'll continue to wait for him to post, rather than speculate egregiously...

vikingfan and ChanglingBob
I still think your revolutionary gang is whacko, but I'm willing to accept you're Pro-Town, on the grounds that if you weren't, we'd have very little chance. I think the most likely possibility (and I forget who brought it up first), is that you are Good Guys, but a little crazy (with Romantic notions of liberty/freedom, which at the time of

Les Miserables

is, of course, considered crazy), so if you try to recruit the Mafia, you die.

-K

[LordKrishna]

Sorry I haven't been more active, but to be honest, much of the Mr. Stoofer-EmpTyger-gootentag discussion was lost on me, and I was just sort of waiting around to see it resolve. Then this April Fool's Day bombshell hit. At first, I thought EmpTyger ridiculously funny, but then I was wondering if he actually meant for the rest of the post to be taken seriously. Tyger, if you could let us know that, it might clear up MeMe's suspicion of you.

Bob, I'm afraid I agree with MeMe on this one -- you were a bit harsh in your wording (though I, too, was surprised when she took it seriously -- I had thought she was merely playing along with Tyger's joke in her post voting for him).

LoudmouthLee's defense of his actions seem to make sense to me, and I don't really find him very suspicious, and "The Wacky Mason Show," starring vikingfan as Marius and ChanglingBob as Enjolras seems to be a reasonable thing now, with the proviso that their powers might not be all useful (Aelyn, you are a tricky Mod indeed!).

The real contention in this game at present seems to be MeMe vs. EmpTyger. I agree that both of them are very good players, and it seems that if one is innocent, then the other is likely scum. The only question is if MeMe is actually the Mafia, starting a bandwagon on EmpTyger for his (admittedly funny, though a bit ill-advised) "joke" post-that-was-only-half-a-joke, or if she's right, and EmpTyger just tried to psych us out for bits & giggles...

This, I'll admit, does seem ludicrous to me, that EmpTyger would go out of his way to tell the truth about his scumminess, then claim it was an April Fool's gag, in an effort to make himself less suspicous -- I think, that at BEST, it could only have made us all laugh, and treat him exactly the same. Still, I do think EmpTyger the most likely candidate for me at present, so I'd like him to explain why he posted the way he did.

In general, let's not try to insult each other (That happened in the other game, and explains, in part, why I posted so much there -- the last two days were filled with insults flying around). I'd rather not that happen here too, as it seems you are all better players than in the other one...

-K

Since I'm one of the "worst lurkers" according to Tyger... I thought I would introduce some math.

There are currently (not counting this one) 204 posts to the game. I am a proud owner of 36 of them. Lets do the math, shall we?

36/204 = around 18%

Now, If there are 10 players in the game (which there are NOT), it would be a safe assumption, posting equally, the percentage would be 10% across the board.

If there were only 5, 20% would be a more aporpos number.

Instead, 18% of posts belong to me. You're main focus on voting me has come from the following complaints:

I'll do this by complaint and answer:

1) I claimed a role, at first, and not my power.
Answer: True. If you're a good mafia player (which, in turn, I believe you are), you know that you MUST play certain roles differently. The role of being un-nightkillable ultimately leads me to an "untouchable" status, however, I was trying (near desperately) to have the Mafia waste a kill attempt on me. Seriously. Look back in the thread. You can easily see my mindset there.

2) I believed I knew who the mafia was. I didn't answer that right away.
Answer: Granted, Javert could STILL be mafia, however, giving my role, Cosette, such a power role, it got me to thinking exactly who tried to "bring Cosette down as far as possible". My answer was already posted. I am not dismissing the fact that there COULD be other possibilites for the Mafia. However, based on my knowledge of the book as well as my role, I can only assume that I was correct about my Mafia picks.

3) I'm a terrible, terrible lurker.
Answer: Granted, I didn't post here for 4 days. I hope my mathematics up top make you realize that, even though I was NOT posting, I was reading. I know that "lurking" is for the most part.. "bad", but Seriously, count the number of CB's posts. What then?

To be honest, I'm apt to believe that CB and Emptyger are both Mafia. That's just my take of it all.

So, with that,

Confirm Vote: EmpTyger

[LordKrishna]

For what it's worth, Krishna was just logged on, and clearly didn't post.

<smile> I was just reallly slow... sorry.
Will read your above post now and post again. Feel free to expect my response in a few hours. <GRIN>

-K

[LordKrishna]

EmpTyger's reasons seem sound to me. The observation about Eponine is duly noted, and MeMe did, in addition to this, try very hard to make Cosette seem like the Anti-Christ in a post directed at LML at some point (too late to refer to the number just now, but in it, she basically threw out a litany of literary reasons why Cosette is hardly a "Good Guy"). Her reading may be valid, but I do recall that at the time, I thought it was a little obsessive. I agree that while Cosette is not particularly bright, or good, or anything, that's more a flaw of Romantic literature (which routinely under-emphasizes positive attributes of its female characters) than of Cosette herself. I think her worst flaw is simply being a rather uninteresting character, apart from her horrid luck, not of deliberately leading others to their doom.

The only reason I bring this up now is that I suppose that what EmpTyger is really suggesting that Eponine is Mafia, and that MeMe is Eponine. If she were, it would make sense for her to try to discredit Cosette, while also planting seeds that suggest Eponine is innocent.

Easy way to test this hypothesis (assuming vikingfan's power works as we seem to think it does): vikingfan sends MeMe to look for Cosette (if it comes back with a result, she is Eponine. If it comes back with the result that LML is really Cosette, even better).

If vikingfan's killed overnight, we'll know we were on the right track...

-K

[LordKrishna]

Good God, why doesn't the mafiascum site notify me when there are 15 posts waiting around?!?!? I have it in my "Watched List". Apologies for the delay...

Valjean removes people from deadly situations such as abuse (Cosette), execution (Javert), death at the barricade (Marius), and being crushed by a cart (Fauchelevent). I save lives.

This does actually make perfect sense to me now, and his point that there would HAVE to be a Jean Valjean in this game is well-taken. I would agree -- the caveat here, of course, is that we are hearing this from Jean ValJean, who cites (as precedent), the previous claim of LML as Cosette, which is the character MOST likely to be paired with Jean Valjean in the case of a Good-Guys-are-really-the-scum game... (I hope noone got confused by that idiotically verbose sentence -- if so, ask).

Further, this adds yet ANOTHER powerful Pro-Town role. Is there no end to this?!

So I am still not unequivocally sure that LML and EmpTyger are both Pro-Town, though I'm not really all that suspicious of either...

LordKrishna: You saying about vikingfan dying overnight. ... Eponine dies when she finds Cosette. If this is right, and Eponine is mafia, the oddness of ... vikingfan's ability disappears, as it is pro-town. This then leads to more of the "Is town too good?" problems, but there you go.

This is what worries me, again. I am wondering WTF powers the Mafia have that balance out those of Town!!

Finally, if vikingfan does wake up dead tomorrow, it could just be he was the mafia target.

My implication was that if vikingfan winds up as the Mafia target, it is to prevent him from using his power to send Eponine to find Cosette -- a fact that would, to me, imply that they have a vested interest in not allowing him to "send Eponine". I was insinuating that if Eponine were scum, this would be consistent play (and self-preserving, perhaps?!

EmpTyger is so drippily scummy that it's incredible to me that he's not been lynched yet.

Please explain to me why this is true. He honestly just doesn't seem 'drippily scummy' (I love this phrase, btw!) to me. His attempted joke, I think, really can't be explained by other means, as I can't think of a non-idiotic reason for the false-Thenardier claim, followed by a JVJ claim (before you counter with "Well, maybe Thenardier is the REAL claim", I put it to you that noone has come forward to disprove that ET is JVJ, an essential role in Les Mis Mafia...).

LoudmouthLee, I'm not clear on your reasoning here:

Marius posted a vote on Cosette, which, if you think about it, is kinda against the flow of the play.

I think I may have brought this up earlier. If I didn't, I meant to, but then feared people might say I'm "playing like a newb" by loooking for evidence in the text, rather than the game itself (which this game, people actually are doing, making it more enjoyable -- I've gone back to re-reading the book -- thanks!). I agree with this part, but then, you wrote this:

Emp, I'm very close to unvoting you, and changing my vote to CB.

Surely you meant vikingfan...? You talk about Marius, then move on to vote for (the claimed) Enjolras. This confuses me a bit.

-K

P.S. Again, people are getting a wee bit insult-y in their language... Let's try to keep it civil, shall we? It's more fun.

[LordKrishna]

Good God, why doesn't the mafiascum site notify me when there are 15 posts waiting around?!?!? I have it in my "Watched List". Apologies for the delay...

Valjean removes people from deadly situations such as abuse (Cosette), execution (Javert), death at the barricade (Marius), and being crushed by a cart (Fauchelevent). I save lives.

This does actually make perfect sense to me now, and his point that there would HAVE to be a Jean Valjean in this game is well-taken. I would agree -- the caveat here, of course, is that we are hearing this from Jean ValJean, who cites (as precedent), the previous claim of LML as Cosette, which is the character MOST likely to be paired with Jean Valjean in the case of a Good-Guys-are-really-the-scum game... (I hope noone got confused by that idiotically verbose sentence -- if so, ask).

Further, this adds yet ANOTHER powerful Pro-Town role. Is there no end to this?!

So I am still not unequivocally sure that LML and EmpTyger are both Pro-Town, though I'm not really all that suspicious of either...

LordKrishna: You saying about vikingfan dying overnight. ... Eponine dies when she finds Cosette. If this is right, and Eponine is mafia, the oddness of ... vikingfan's ability disappears, as it is pro-town. This then leads to more of the "Is town too good?" problems, but there you go.

This is what worries me, again. I am wondering WTF powers the Mafia have that balance out those of Town!!

Finally, if vikingfan does wake up dead tomorrow, it could just be he was the mafia target.

My implication was that if vikingfan winds up as the Mafia target, it is to prevent him from using his power to send Eponine to find Cosette -- a fact that would, to me, imply that they have a vested interest in not allowing him to "send Eponine". I was insinuating that if Eponine were scum, this would be consistent play (and self-preserving, perhaps?!

EmpTyger is so drippily scummy that it's incredible to me that he's not been lynched yet.

Please explain to me why this is true. He honestly just doesn't seem 'drippily scummy' (I love this phrase, btw!) to me. His attempted joke, I think, really can't be explained by other means, as I can't think of a non-idiotic reason for the false-Thenardier claim, followed by a JVJ claim (before you counter with "Well, maybe Thenardier is the REAL claim", I put it to you that noone has come forward to disprove that ET is JVJ, an essential role in Les Mis Mafia...).

LoudmouthLee, I'm not clear on your reasoning here:

Marius posted a vote on Cosette, which, if you think about it, is kinda against the flow of the play.

I think I may have brought this up earlier. If I didn't, I meant to, but then feared people might say I'm "playing like a newb" by loooking for evidence in the text, rather than the game itself (which this game, people actually are doing, making it more enjoyable -- I've gone back to re-reading the book -- thanks!). I agree with this part, but then, you wrote this:

Emp, I'm very close to unvoting you, and changing my vote to CB.

Surely you meant vikingfan...? You talk about Marius, then move on to vote for (the claimed) Enjolras. This confuses me a bit.

-K

P.S. Again, people are getting a wee bit insult-y in their language... Let's try to keep it civil, shall we? It's more fun.

[LordKrishna]

Sorry for the double-post. I am pretty sure I only hit the post button once. At least this time I didn't cross-post, though. That's something.

(OOG: Does anyone know what happened to the site a few days back? I saw it mentioned, but not explained.)

-K

[LordKrishna]

This is a very good reason to think him scum, if there's a counter-claim. I still don't see why he would have made the Thenardier claim, if not as a joke, though I suppose that could certainly be unrelated to his culpability as scum...

Defend yourself or die.

FOS: EmpTyger.

-K

P.S. I would just like to point out -- I think it's interesting that in the game, the Valjean claim ends up killing a man, rather than saving him. Dripping in irony, I'd say...

[LordKrishna]

In case it hasn't been somewhat clear -- I tend to post late at night, b/c that's when I'm home and have Internet access. MeMe, please don't ask "Why haven't you voted" when the reason is obviously that EmpTyger hadn't yet posted his defense... which he now has.


All right. EmpTyger's defense of himself has come up EmpTy.

<rimshot>

I do like genuinely like your play-style, EmpTyger, but I, too, ultimately find MeMe's explanation more convincing than yours. I don't think the Thenardier claim was a 'tell' -- I think that you honestly did attempt to make what I thought was a pretty funny joke. But ultimately, the counter-claim breaks it for me...

I had essentially voted already, MeMe, with my heart (my earlier FOS, with the words "Defend yourself or die), but now, after the words "I don’t think there’s anything I can add to my defense that hasn’t already been said," I'll put my money where my mouth is, so to speak).

VOTE: EmpTyger

.

I dp think that EmpTyger's 'defense' post [250] raises some interesting points for those who have night decisions to be made, should he turn out to be Town (and ALSO, should he turn out to be scum). I agree with MeMe's assessment -- he is a rather clever player. Let's see who was more clever...

-K

P.S. Apologies for lame joke above.

P.P.S. EmpTyger and I are cross-posting, but nothing he just said has solved the problem. If he's innocent, then MeMe is obviously scum. End of story. Let's end the Day now, and gain some info.

[LordKrishna]

MeMe, I don't understand this "give it up. You're dead." comment. Prior to my vote, he still had a chance (of someone bailing on their vote, whatever).

gootentag's role restriction does make sense if we have as many superpowers on Town's side as people have been claiming.

-K

[LordKrishna]

Personally, I don't think a mass claim is a good idea.
ChanglingBob claimed Enjolras
MeMe claimed Valjean
gootentag, Mr. Stoofer, and I have not yet claimed (this despite gootentag's blatant misread of my Eponine post -- more later).

Why do I bring this up? It would be relatively easy for the remaining scum to simply wait and claim a role that the other two characters haven't. Does it gain us (Town) anything? No. But it does gain a lot for the remaining scum -- he may be able to deduce who has a power role among those of us who remain and kill them the next night, if we fail to successfully lynch tonight.

That means it must be gootentag or LordKrishna. Looking at their posts, and what EmpTyger said about them, from yesterday, I'm going to

FOS LordKrishna

for now.

I fail to see how EmpTyger said anything implicating me -- care to point this out?

In other news, I used neither of my abilities last night, as vikingfan and myself agreed that any results today would be the results of his finding Cosette, due to the possibily-not-pro-town-abilityness of it all.

Here is what happened to vikingfan and LoudmouthLee -- vikingfan "sent Eponine to find Cosette". Once this happened, Eponine betrayed them both, causing them both to die. Eponine is clearly scum, no?

gootentag raises an interesting point. It is interesting because of how ludicrous it is -- he claims that I have claimed to be Eponine. Now, this is problematic on two fronts: 1) I have not claimed Eponine, so it's pretty demonstrably false; 2) I have been arguing all along that Eponine is likely scum, based on Marius' power -- the revelation that Thenardier was scum makes this only more likely (more later).

Why are you so eager to implicate me in such an obviously false way? This seems like poor play to me, as if you simply didn't read very carefully. This is bad for Town. We need to read very carefully, and make sure of our decision -- only 5 people left. We don't have a guaranteed loss if we mislynch, but that doesn't mean we have a whole lot of error room...

This, too, is ridiculous, gootentag:

FOS: LordKrishna in addition to beeing present at the shooting, you apparently had Mr. Hugo's pistol from the lynch scene yesterday.

First, let me now point out that the flavor text also mentions the Sword of Damocles. Does this mean that this self-same sword has appeared in our game? No. It means that is Aelyn having fun writing good death scenes.
Second, assuming that the flavor text IS in some way reflective of reality: in the flavor text, I take Hugo's pistol from him and finish EmpTyger off. He was Thenardier, a scum. So this is far from making me a suspicious character. You, on the other hand, refused to vote for Thenardier, citing 'role-based reasons'. I put it to you, gootentag, that you are in fact Eponine, the daughter of Thenardier. Not having the heart to off the old man, you watched as we killed this insidious criminal, then, crying, you sent off Cosette and Marius to their deaths as well.

(Perhaps the above is a bit melodramatic, but I think gootentag is FAR from free from suspicion --

FOS: gootentag

).

MeMe:

The most innocent-looking person in the game often gets doc protection and, correct me if I'm wrong, I think I might have been tagged as such after yesterday.

How many scum do you think are left? If one person got shot by scum, then there wasn't another scum to try to kill you. I think that it's more likely that there is no doctor (also: Town over-powered issue), and that the scum tried to kill someone else to throw suspicion on you.

-K

[LordKrishna]

I'm probably going to be unable to post for two days (last-minute visit to Chicago, visiting law schools I got into). That said, I'm willing to claim my role, I have no problem with that. It just seems to me that a mass-claim is a bad idea, as it would give the scum info, and I don't think anyone would be stupid enough to claim a scummy role...

I am Inspector Javert. I am allowed to investigate, and to make arrests based on the results. From what I gather, this is essentially a night-kill. (I have not made any).

In the discussion, there has been talk of doubting Javert's sanity. I did as well (after all, he wrongfully pursues Jean Valjean endlessly in the book), so I was careful. I did correctly get an innocent result (for LoudMouthLee), so it's not as if I thnk everyone is guilty in my eyes or whatever. I did think that an investigation of MeMe would probably turn up a false guilty result, so I didn't do that, instead trying to get more information...

So, on the second night, I investigated gootentag. I got the result that you have shady Underworld associations, and that you yourself were just shady enough to arrest, but that doing so would feel wrong, somehow. Hence, I'd like you to explain what your Underworld connections are, if they are not simply that you are Eponine, the daughter of Thenardier (as I posited in the last post).

I'm not suspicious of MeMe, and while your role makes me uneasy, you don't appear to be scum (in my eyes), and I absolutely know that I'm not scum. That leaves ChanglingBob and Mr. Stoofer. I don't think it's likely for Bob to be scum, as it means he would have killed his own Mason partner, and from this I would be termpted to deduce that Mr. Stoofer is scum, but I realize that Bob is still a wild card (as he could, as MeMe points out, still be scum, but with a Pro-Town partner) so I'm not yet ready to vote.

Be back as soon as I can (perhaps I can post from the library, briefly, tomorrow, enough to weigh in or vote, as necessary).
-K

[LordKrishna]

I'm back.

Will post substantively tonight (10 PST)

For now, two points.

1) Javert is not a leader. He's essentially a vigilante who is sanctioned by the law. In the book (prob. the musical too??), he works alone, and dies alone. He's free (unlike cops in real life), to endlessly pursue one guy, and doesn't really seem to do any other cop-like things (no parking tickets in those days, but still, you see what I mean). That said, I don't think we should rely on Aelyn's flavor text..

2) I don't think my claim is non-committal at all -- it's pretty clear to me that we should not lynch gootentag. He's *just about* shady enough to arrest, but not scum (based on how I interpret what my results were). I think that being the Bishop might work... I'll think about this more and post more later.

-K

[LordKrishna]

Back a bit later than I expected. Oh well, no one seems to have been around since my last post.

Everyone seems to be waiting on Mr. Stoofer to post a more complete claim. I too, will add my voice on this. I, again, am suspicious of Eponine, being the daughter of Thenardier, and all, and being the cruel stepsister (as I recall, though my memory is hazy, and I'm not that far in the book again), though not enough for a FOS.

ChanglingBob:

...if I were scum, wouldn't I have not claimed when vikingfan were up for a lynch? It would be easy enough to deny all knowledge of the masonry, and then I would be one townie down. And if I were a scum group recruiting, wouldn't I have been doing that every night so far?

The first point doesn't work, because vikingfan yelling out for you to help him out, might have forced you to come forward with an explanation. The second point, though, might valid. You haven't obviously haven't used your power to incite revolution or recruit, but how do we know that you didn't, say, try to recruit LML last night? Oh, and I like that you have "voting skillz".

As far as male leaders are concerned, the only person that might clear would be Eponine at this point.

This does not follow. It makes an assumption, and a large one at that. It assumes that the "leader of the group" in the flavor text, that pulls a gun out of his pocket to shoot Marius, is Mafia. There is no reason why Eponine could not have been the scum, who hired some nameless, NPC goons (after all, there is also more than one person in the group -- does that imply there are 2 or more scum left?!)

I claimed and used my ability yesterday when I sent the game into early twilight by finishing off EmpTyger myself. Remember?

MeMe, you never did fully claim/explain this one, and I never got it. Would you mind explaining it now?

I just thought, since I, gootentag, Mr. Stoofer, and ChanglingBob are all under the glass, so to speak, that I'd bring up a point (that is, admittedly, rather wacky), just to bring MeMe in a little bit as well.

Wouldn't it have been awesome if Aelyn had made Jean Valjean and Thenardier the Mafia? Thematically, of course, it wouldn't work at all, but I gather that such things don't HAVE to work out that way in these things...? Had he done this, of course, EmpTyger and MeMe could have concocted the (absolutely brilliant) plan of sacrificing Thenardier for the win.

I'm not sure that this makes any sense at all, I'm just pointing out that it is interesting, and, I believe, there is no way to test this hypothesis than to lynch someone and see what happens. Just more fun hypotheticals in the land of Krishna, sleepy-time-style.

-K

[LordKrishna]

You haven't obviously haven't used your power to incite revolution or recruit, but how do we know that you didn't, say, try to recruit LML last night?

I don't agree with it being obvious that he's not used his power to recruit.

This is an incorrect interpretation of my earlier statement -- read again, with the word 'obviously' boldfaced, drawing attention to word order:
"Bob, you haven't

obviously

used your power to recruit, but how do we know that you didn't, say, try to recruit LML last night?"

MeMe, your reasons of being suspicious of me are completely unfounded. Let's take them both apart, shall we?

Although I wouldn't personally ever make Javert evil, I'm concerned about his latest post in which he puts forth the theories of 1) EmpTyger and I being the mafia team who concocted the "brilliant" plan of removing one of us from the game on Day 1 thereby securing the win (if there are/were only two scum, as I believe, this would

not

be brilliant)

Two reasons why this fails as a 'me-being-scum' argument:
1) I didn't put it forth as a theory, I just brought it up as I thought it would be interesting. Everyone seems to be saying that it would make no sense to do this, as (as gootentag put it) it "takes all the weight out of role-claiming").
2) Yes, I contend it would be absolutely brilliant. Why? Well, if we lynch Thenardier, then we would all look at point 1, and refuse to lynch Jean Valjean, right? This would be true no matter what day this happens on. Again, I'm not saying this makes you scum, MeMe (as I think it's not likely for Thenardier and Valjean to be scum together), but don't discount it as a bad plan, given the silly setup I posited...

2) that Eponine hired an NPC group (which is, though creative, ridiculous thematically as Eponine is destitute). The more he talks, the less comfortable I am that he's to be trusted.

Again, you are mis-interpreting my words. I brought up the idea that it is stupid to rely on the flavor text as our determiner of who is guilty. I do not believe that the scum needs to be a leader, or to be a male. Again, I was positing a hypothetical in which it could be true that Eponine would be scum, while not actually pulling the trigger in the flavor text

because I don't think it is at all important

. The flavor text also had me pull

Victor Hugo's

gun out of his pocket and finish off EmpTyger. Victor Hugo is obviously not a character in his own book, nor is he able to affect the outcome, so why does he have a gun? (etc. etc. -- My point is that all such considerations are inane). Also, if, as you say, MeMe, your power is to double your vote anonymously, then my act of pulling the trigger in the flavor text would not matter at all, so, again, my contention stands -- the flavor text is irrelevant.

Oh, and MeMe, it doesn't make any sense to suspect that Javert is in cahoots with Thenardier. That's just as ridiculous as Valjean-Thenardier.

Assuming the following roles are true:
Mr. Stoofer - Eponine
gootentag - Bishop of Digne
MeMe - Jean Valjean
ChanglingBob - Enjolras

I find it hard to believe that any of them, excepting Eponine, would be teamed up with Thenardier. Thoughts?

Mr. Stoofer, it really seems the burden is on you to figure out who your Mme. Thenardier is.

I do not discount the possibility of there being one, MeMe, despite the lack of M. Thenardier. Why? In the book, he is not referred to as M. Thenardier, but simply as Thenardier, as is (still!) common in France, for the man to simply be known by the last name, but the woman to need Mme. in front, to imply that she is the wife of that person.

-K

[LordKrishna]

Whoops. I did make a mistake -- I wrote the word "haven't" twice. OK, then you're right, it was totally wrong. I apologize for not reading it over more carefully. What I meant, again, was that Bob has not used his ability in an obvious way, but that he may have used it at night, in secret.

Why would the burden be on Stoofer to "figure out" who Mme. Thenardier is?

Because he is the only one who contends that Mme. Thenardier is definitely in the game, so he needs to figure out who she is. He hasn't responded to this, and I still think that Eponine is the most likely to be scum, so I'm going to

VOTE: Mr. Stoofer

to see if that will bring anything out.

if there were a Mme. Thenardier in the game, she'd have to be either gootentag or yourself. Right?

This is only true if we assume that Mr. Stoofer, yourself, and ChanglingBob claimed accurately. Obviously, above, I have agreed that Eponine is more likely than another Mme. Thenardier, but I will allow that if Stoofer is telling the truth (his claim is ultra-convoluted, go back and look over it anyone, and try to explain in very small words to me), that Mme. Thenardier exists in the game. At this point, I'd say gootentag is far more likely than me. Why? Because Javert's inherently more suspicious-sounding than the Bishop. It's far more clever to claim a minor character, one that no one else is likely to claim (as I posted just before I left for Chicago).

I'm also pretty interested in the fact that at the end of the day one, you chided me for not noticing that you generally post later in the evening...but now you seem to have gained access without problem in the middle of the day.

I do generally post in the evening, MeMe, but I think it rather crass of you to accuse me based on access needs. Not everyone has a computer at their disposal 24/7. I have a computer at home, and I'm happy to logon to the site every night to check. During the day, however, I work as a teacher, so I'm not usually able to do so. This past week, school was out for Spring Break (that is also how I was able to fly out to Chicago midweek).

There is no over-the-top reaction to suspicion when you are the cop. I'm getting taken down tonight, you realize, if we mis-lynch, so I'd better get the scum lynched today. Also, I feel that your tone hasn't been all that friendly, but I assume it is the effect of text rather than words. Nevertheless, let's try to keep this game friendly, shall we?

-K

[LordKrishna]

I don't believe Stoofer's claim. Thus, there's nothing incongruent about a cop wanting to lynch a potential 'doctor' -- I don't think he is one.

Why don't I believe it? In addition to the Town-is-too-powerful problem of old, I have detailed more reasons at the end of this post. For now, some responses to quotes of y'all. All 'you' (or 'he', in one case) refs. are pointed my way.

ChanglingBob: "You also seem to be happy to throw a vote around when no-one else has bothered. "
K: This is because I think that we need to lynch scum to win the game. A proactive solution.

gootentag: "It is not solely Mr. Stoofer's responsibility to find Mme Thenardier if she exists."
K: His claim indicates that she exists. This is the only evidence we have. I don't believe his claim. Therefore, he has to prove himself to me.

gootentag: "You washing your hands of finding scum is both suspicious and ironic for a claimed cop."
K: I'm not 'washing my hands of finding scum'. I'm voting for who I think fits that bill.

Mr. Stoofer: "I don't think that the he even gave a single reasons why I might be scum."
K: It's because your claim just doesn't make sense to me.

Let's look at the claim.

"Every night I choose someone to hang around. As the estranged daughter of the Thernadiers, I will try frustrate [sic] them if they try to harm that person."
a) So, if you 'hang around' Javert tonight, you will try to frustrate me if I try to harm the Thenardiers?
b) Or is it that you protect ME from the THENARDIERS?
(This latter seems to have been how people interpreted this post, but I had initially read it the first way, esp. when paired with the next sentence. I am beginning to believe that it must have been meant the first way, but I am suspicious of it, as I think it makes town too powerful, as noted above.)

"Furthermore, because of my time acting as a lookout for my parents, I will out of habit distract any government agents that try to do anything to the person I am hanging around."
So if I were to investigate the Thenardiers, she would distract me (presumably causing an innocent result)? This either seems like it works with choice (a) above, in which case, you behave scummily, or it works against choice (b), assuming that 'government agents' refers to Javert (the only figure of the govt. that I can think of). In the case of incongruity, it makes your claim hard to believe.

Now does it make sense why Mr. Stoofer's claim seems suspect to me? Thematically, as a government agent, I am interested in not having someone around who thwarts me, and I would see that as breaking the law (aiding and abetting a criminal). Furthermore, assuming people's role claims are all true, Eponine seems the best candidate to be scum to me (as opposed to Valjean, the hero of the story; Enjolras, the courageous rebel; the noble Bishop of Digne, who gives even his silver candlesticks away to redeem the soul of a criminal; or Javert, the policeman -- a tragic figure bound to his duty, who realizes his quest has been after a noble man, and gives up his own life, unable to bear the contradiction).

What's Eponine all about? She's essentially the wicked stepsister of Cosette, right? Or am I missing something else from the story here?

-K

[LordKrishna]

I'm sticking with my vote for now. It doesn't matter to me that you're not allied with EmpTyger, as I see no reason why you couldn't be another SK.

Got another target that you think looks better for me to vote for? Let me know, and I'd switch, provided your reasoning made more sense to me.

I realize, all, that I'm the only one voting. I don't think this makes me scummy -- far from it. I think that the lynch today is the only way for us to catch and kill scum. And I don't want the game to stall.

Bob, name something(s?) I didn't answer. I'll try to address it(/them?) in my next post.

-K

[LordKrishna]

Bob, you've missed my point in a couple of places, so I think I was not clear enough.

This one is the most important:

Quote:

gootentag: "It is not solely Mr. Stoofer's responsibility to find Mme Thenardier if she exists."
K: His claim indicates that she exists. This is the only evidence we have. I don't believe his claim. Therefore, he has to prove himself to me.

This seems almost political in its answering of a different question to the one asked. You're earlier point is being contradicted, yet you don't really try to defend it, you say something else instead. Just because Mr Stoofer's claim mentions the Thernadiers, it doesn't mean that Mme Thernadier is in the game, and saying it is one person's responsibility to find scum is wrong: that's the job of the whole town.

My earlier claim *isn't* being contradictied. I was not saying it's Stoofer's responsibility to *find scum*. I was saying that it's his responsibility to furnish us with a *Mme. Thenardier*. Why would I have said this, you ask? My point here was that Mr. Stoofer, having claimed that there is a Mme. Thenardier, needs to prove this to us, because the Town doesn't seem to believe that Mme. Thenardier is the remaining scum. I don't believe that she is in the game. In response to MeMe's point about Thenardier not being referred to as M. Thenardier, I replied that this does not preclude a Mme. Thenardier.

But I certainly did not mean to imply that Mme. Thenardier is in the game.

I do not believe this. (Is everyone following me on this? I don't know how to make this any clearer. I think people are focusing on parts of my posts that I think are far less important.)

You are washing your hands of finding scum, as you are claiming it is Mr Stoofer's job to find it. And then voting him also completely contradicts the point of saying he must find scum, as this leaves him less chance to anyway.

No, this is wrong, again, for the same reason as above -- I think that Mme. Thenardier is NOT in the game, and that Mr. Stoofer has to find this imaginary character if he wants us (really me) to believe that SHE is scum. Different from me demanding that he find scum, you see?

My vote on him is intended to put pressure on him. I think there is no likelihood of a quick lynch, as the scum would leap on after the second vote, to condemn us all. Also, Bob, a not-understood claim is a perfectly valid reason for a vote. My role makes sense. Cosette's made sense. (etc. Eponine's powers and role in the game is unclear, particularly as no one has taken the time to answer my question as regards her character in the book. I think Stoofer's claim doesn't match with the other claims in the game.

Although I kind of think this about gootentag's claim as well, his at least makes sense in that the Bishop of Digne *would* be totally against lynchings, etc., which is why I'm not terribly suspicious of him. Also, my investigation results were pretty clear that I should not arrest him, which amounts to saying that we absolutely should not lynch him! Hence, to me, it is ridiculous to think that my results on him are at ALL ambiguous. He is not a candidate for lynching. Neither is Valjean. This leaves Javert, Enjolras, and Eponine. Of the three, I happen to know to know that I'm innocent, so I have to pick one of the remaining two, and I'm going with Eponine, as I think she is a 'bad guy', whereas Enjolras is not. Perhaps, honestly, this is overly simplistic, but no one has given me a better solution to our dilemma.

Bob, it should now be relatively clear why I'm voting for Stoofer. If you want me to change my vote, it would be to you.

As for taking a "risk" by claiming Javert if he actually isn't...I don't believe this is true. When he claimed, Cb and I were already out...gootentag said he thought Javert would be SK or godfather (in post 25) - so he's obviously not going to claim Javert...and Stoofer said in post 191 that Javert would be an "obviously scummy role - so he's obviously not going to claim Javert.

This is why it was a risk for me to claim -- lots of people believed (and still believe!) that Javert is a scummy role. Why? Simple -- in the book, he's an antagonist figure to our hero, Jean Valjean. With people being predisposed to thinking Javert is scummy, it's a risk coming out, but I thought it was worth it, as the Town was wanting a mass-claim. It would have been suicide not to claim my role, and I think it's equally stupid for a Townsperson to lie about their claim.

I think this day is stalling. After the brilliant unmasking of EmpTyger on the last day by MeMe, and the subsequent massive losses to our side in the Night, we seem to simply be deadlocked, unwilling to move.

-K

[LordKrishna]

Holy crap! I just realized something! It's about Stoofer's claim. In my post #332, I detail why Stoofer's claim made no sense to me, but now I've gone back over his claim for the umpteenth time to see something new.

"Every night I choose someone to hang around. As the estranged daughter of the Thernadiers, I will try frustrate them if they try to harm that person."
This had sounded to me like it made Town too powerful, to have a sort of doctor on top of a cop (me) and some friendly Masons into the bargain, and an un-Night-killable Townie (who of course, turrns out to have her own problems!).

"Furthermore, because of my time acting as a lookout for my parents, I will out of habit distract any government agents that try to do anything to the person I am hanging around."
And then, this part really confused me -- I saw an incongruity in the claim, that I didn't understand, but apparently, everyone else did, though without

saying

anything about it. This part of Stoofer's claim suggests that he works against the government (me, Pro-Town), so I thought, this doesn't work with the previous Pro-Town ability.

I had thought this to be evidence of scumminess, that he had simply made a grave error in his claim, by claiming two abilities, one Pro-Town and one Anti-Town, but now I realize what it really is -- a game balance mechanism. It's not that Eponine has two *powers* that she uses intentionally, it's just that her protection means that I can't investigate that same person. It's a way of compromising the efficacy of both roles.

Sure, we have a Doctor, but she's also anti-Cop. Sure, we have a Cop, but his sanity may be in question (my role PM even is very careful to mention something to the effect that I can arrest people I who are guilty in my eyes, rather than simply saying I can arrest guilty parties). Sure, we've got a Bishop, to protect people from being lynched, but he can't vote! (this would be crippling tomorrow, if we mislynch, if not for some new clarification that I don't quite get yet). Sure, we've got a un-Night-killable Townie, but she explodes when her lover dies (?).

And one last one, I think. Sure, we have a pair of Masons that seem like good guys. But only one really is.

I'm going to

UNVOTE

: Mr. Stoofer now, and

VOTE: ChanglingBob

, as he's the remaining suspect, in my book. This makes less sense thematically (Enjolras-Thenardier), but it does fit perfectly with the "problematic" power roles that Aelyn has thrown our way. (It also makes sense thematically for us all to be "flawed" in some way, as are the extravagantly Romantic characters in the source material).

-K

[LordKrishna]

Damn. If we lynch wrong, we lose.

I investigated Stoofer last night, and got the result that I can't find anything specific wrong that he had done, though he had previously engaged in lookout activites for criminals. I thought it would be unsafe for the Town to arrest him based solely on that.

-K

[LordKrishna]

I think MeMe is a 'she', not a 'he'. At least, the gender icon seems to indicate this.

CAUTION: LONG POST

So, my thoughts.... I am actually somewhat confused. This would have been my response yesterday:
-------------

gootentag

:
I do think it is likely he is the Bishop -- it fits with my investigation results. The Bishop is someone who has associated with a known criminal (Valjean), and has, in fact, even aided one, but it would not necessarily be a good idea to arrest him. (Or lynch!)

MeMe

:
Of course MeMe isn't scum -- she's VALJEAN, remember? Also, she used an ability to kill off EmpTyger, which would be stupid in a small game.
--------------


Today, though, we are left with only three of us, and so one of us isn't quite on the money with the claim. I know I didn't kill all those people, so let's re-visit you two, then return to me.

gootentag

:
Really doesn't seem all that scummy, despite not being a) me, or b) Valjean. It would be really twisted to make the Bishop a killer, so I don't think that's likely. It seems that there are only two possibilities here:
1) He really is the Bishop, and the role works as he said it did. This is supported by the fact that he has never voted. This strikes me as singularly odd in a Mafia game (though, admittedly, I haven't seen all that many!).
2) He is lying, and is not only not the Bishop, but is a murdering scum that will drop the second vote on one of our heads as soon as one of us votes. Yikes. This does, however, require that you accept that he would have not voted all along, simply to set this up. This would have been a feat indeed.

MeMe

:
Really doesn't seem all that scummy for the same reasons as mentioned before (claimed Valjean, and was very clearly vocal against EmpTyger). There are, again, two possibilities:
1) MeMe is Valjean, and everything she has said has been true. This is supported by strong internal logic within the framework of her posts.
2) MeMe is the most clever player ever to walk the face of this Earth and has been playing us all for chumps. Though this part actually does seem likely to me, based on how clearly experienced she is, I don't think a Valjean-Thenardier team-up is at all likely. So for this one to work, *she* would have to be Mme. Thenardier (or another heretofore-unclaimed-but-really-scummy character). This also seems unlikely to me.

Why? The only way I think I can get (2) to work out in my mind is if the following is true:
a) MeMe really wanted to ax her partner and take a risk on a later Day, or b) She's a separate scum faction (SK). I don't think this (b) would work, though, because then there would have been two kills each night, unless they were ludicrously unlucky, and one of them had targeted Stoofer's target (the protected person) the second night, and LML the first.
c) Also, it would require, essentially, that she knew that claiming Valjean was safe. This, actually, does work, as gootentag points out -- there was ample time for a counter-claim before she made hers, and it's not an unreasonable role (everyone expects Valjean to exist, and also Valjean's the Good Guy). But neither (a) nor (b) seems terribly plausible.



All that said, how could a game exist without Valjean?! Or Javert? But the Bishop... I think this is what, ultimately makes me lean in your direction, gootentag. I'm not terribly suspicious of either of you, but the Valjean claim just makes more sense to me.

I'm not willing to vote on that much, of course, but I thought I'd throw it out that if a deadline were imposed (after requesting an extension!), I'd pick gootentag.

So now, thoughts on me,

LordKrishna

:
I posted correctly. I am Javert. I do have the powers I mentioned before. I posit that it would have been absolutely blitheringly stupid to have claimed Javert, for the very same reason gootentag claimed it to be safe:
"At the time he claimed, Javert was a relatively safe claim, as everyone else had either claimed already or expressed speculation about the allignment of the role, essentially claiming that they were not Javert themselves."
This would work if everyone had "expressed speculation" that Javert was a good guy. Most people (other than MeMe, I think?), had said that Javert was likely to be scum. Remember? ("Way, way back many centuries ago" on Day 1)

Also, as long as we *don't* lynch me, then Town will win, no matter which of you two is lynched. If we lynch a Townie, then I can arrest the remaining scum tonight. If we lynch scum, then obviously, we win.

The only question I have is who takes precedence in such a situation as if it is me with an arrest versus a Scum with a gun/knife? I would guess that in this situation, the tie goes to the Town, but I have no clue how this sort of thing works. Heck, the mod might count that as a simultaneous kill, and that would mean that no one (or everyone?!) would win. MeMe, have you any idea, based on any previous games, what would be the right of it?

If the powers don't work that way, then my plan doesn't make sense, and the only way is for us to nail the correct person. So it seems we're back to Square One. MeMe, please post you thoughts, too, now that the two of us have posted (we are to trust that our posts haven't influenced yours, then, I suppose?)

-K

[LordKrishna]

All right, my latest thoughts (I don't want to use MeMe's term -- "final thoughts"!) are as follows:

I'm pretty sure that Javert, even if insane, could not get a LESS guilty result from investigating someone. I found that I *could* arrest gootentag, but that I might regret it. This means, given that Javert is likely to be harsh, that gootentag must be inoocent.

Given that there is still a killer, it must be MeMe. (Yes, this is despite my thoughts earlier that gootentag's character claim looks less likely to be in the game, and yes, this is even despite her wanting to kill off EmpTyger, and yes, I know I'm going back on my own earlier post, which is something that looks scummy, but I believe that this is a better answer than my earlier one).

MeMe's power was very sketchily detailed earlier, and I was never easy with the explanation given to us. Here is why -- it comes down to the "usage" of her power in the killing of EmpTyger, something that you seem to accept as fact, gootentag.

I just don't see where she use her power to kill off EmpTyger, actually. The post in which EmpTyger dies (Post 266) reads as follows:
---------
After a few minutes, MeMe sits back, triumphant. “Don’t worry, everyone”, she calls out, “He’s had the sword of Damocles over him for a while, and I just cut it.”

Confused, Emptyger looked above his head and stared into the sky, apparently not understanding the metaphor.
---------

So EmpTyger is still alive at this point... (he looks up)


Then:
---------
“I’ve had enough!” growled LordKrishna. He strode forward, taking advantage of Emptyger’s distracted state, grabbed Monsieur Hugo’s pistol and shot Emptyger dead.
---------

Looks to me like *I* killed EmpTyger (I not only "shot him", I "shot him

dead

"), and not MeMe... but WHY would she lie about a power, if not scum?

Honestly, it's her repsonse to me that she wanted us each to post our thoughts before she posted hers that made me prick up my ears to her again. That just doesn't make any sense to me -- why should gootentag and I explain ourselves to you, without you explaining yourself to us? It smacks not only of unfairness, but of a calculating mind, plotting what to say to convince us, based on which way we're already leaning.

FoS: MeMe

And gootentag, read my post again if you're confused as to why voting for me is a bad move, whereas even a wrong vote on one of you two might not be so bad. Remember, so what if the scum has a night-kill? I can night-kill (well, arrest, technically) the scum, too!

Either way, though, without question, if you two lynch me, then the scum win.

-K