Mini 775 - Hammersmouth Is Under Attack! (Game over)

[Pablo Molinero]

vote: _over9000

What's this underscore in the beginning of your name rubbish?

[Pablo Molinero]

iamausername

I don't like the way you presume to speak for the whole town in saying this.

Word. And then placing a fourth vote on top of Percy. I'm all for pressure wagons, but that much out of the RVS seems kinda silly. I don't want to answer completely for Percy, but I don't think Sniper's question is has much merit because the Percy's RVS shouldn't mean much, if anything, while the FoS seemed to be transitioning out of it. However, Sniper does thankfully qualify his vote with:

Sniper

It's not an outright confirmed scum action, obviously

btw:

unvote

kirr

Personally I do not think that he (Percy) is scum

How can you have hard feelings on people this early in the game? Inside information?

[Pablo Molinero]

Unvote
Vote: Pablo Molinero

And I quote: "Care to enlighten us?" Or are you just fishing for reactions now?

[Pablo Molinero]

Are you buddying up to me, by voting for the person who showed some suspicion at me? It's a pretty anti-town action, and you didn't give any case on Pablo before voting for him. I change my mind.

I think your logic is far fetched, kirroha, and the situation you proposed was a little too leaps in logic/speculation for my liking. It seems to me Percy was just continuing on with his RVS (which we are most definitely out of now) since I wasn't even mentioned in Percy's post where he voted me.

Between CJMiller's one-line style that I abhor (not really helpful to the town) and kabenon007's very blatant (sarcastic?) wagon hopping, I think there are two top suspects with kirroha bringing up the rear at #3. Let's get a bit more pressure on here:

Unvote; Vote kabnenon007

[Pablo Molinero]

You criticize me for wagon hopping. How is it any different from any of the other random voting stage antics that go on Day 1?

Because despite Percy's best efforts we were out of the RVS and you were putting on the L-2 vote with a zwet/empking/millar-like post.

You yourself say that my hopping was blatant (sarcastic?) So, you've got your answers right there... why vote me for it?

Wait, blatant hopping with little reason shouldn't be reason for a vote? Like hell it shouldn't.

I jumped on because I believed at that moment that Percy was the scummiest, therefore my vote would rest with him. I witheld my reasons for reactions, which I got.

Seems fishy to me due to the fact that anyone deceiving, withholding their motives, can hide behind that "looking for reactions" when there STILL have been no real reasons for the Percy vote. Until you can tell be about these elusive "reactions" and "reasons", my vote stands.

[Pablo Molinero]

That's how I play the first day. I hate the first day with a passion, more than likely because of my IRL mafia experiences of people just randomly bandwagoning someone to death, with no information coming out of it.

In this game, information is all we've got to go on, so we need as much of it as possible. Look at all the information that's come out of my short little post.

"That's just how I play" is an insufficient excuse for scummy actions, although you freely admit it (first step to admitting you have a problem). You say that you hate Day 1, due to lack of information we get from it, to rationalize your actions to get it over with as soon as possible. And yet in the same post you pride yourself on getting info and talking points going with your vote. I'm seeing two distinct themes that clash.

There are people accusing me, there are people who are avoiding talking about my actions (perhaps to keep attention away from themselves?)

Yes there are these people. Now what does it all mean? Who are they? Point us in the right direction; info without analysis is useless.

However, I agree with getting out of the RVS as soon as possible and your points on the muddled info you get from it.

CJMiller - Enough with the active lurking. You're coasting. Post something more than 1 line.

And I really, really have no idea how to react to Artem's roleclaim out of the blue. I guess we see on day 2? This either sets you up to be NKed later, be protected, or launch a grand lie. I don't exactly like telegraphing a role in trying to draw out/dictate the doc's protection.

[Pablo Molinero]

I hate it due to the quick lynches that I've seen happen that give no information, not the fact that there is no information.

Ah, see, you specified nothing about the speed of the wagon in question. "Random bandwagons" did not jump out as "quick lynches" to me. Your clarification makes sense; imagine that.

You say it's muddled, but don't say how. How can I defend myself if I don't have anything but "muddled" to defend against?

Sarcastic remarks, jokes, mistakes that can be written off as 'jokes': we don't know what's genuine in the RVS and it can let mafia get away with pretty much anything.

I had no particular goal in who I wanted to get information from, I have no particular person I was trying to trap or whatever. I was just getting information, mostly for use come Day 2. Once we have a couple corpses on our hands, we can then look back and see who defended who, who accused who, and who avoided speaking about anyone. Besides, I don't want to point anyone in the right direction, as that would be leading the town.

Well said. At the risk of going, "I agree", I'm also of the mind that Day 1 is huge for information purposes later in the game.

unvote

[Pablo Molinero]

Hah, how petty. Gonna FoS semioldguy while you're at it?

[Pablo Molinero]

School is happening to me. In the face. I may not get back to mafiascum til tomorrow late. We'll see.

[Pablo Molinero]

My eye is stuck between _over9000, kirr, and CJMiller right now, with none looking too hot.

Over has a whole 4 posts to his name, one jumping on a semi-popular wagon and mostly misinterpreting kabenon007's words even after kabenon's exchange with me had (I thought) cleared it up.

kirr... I dunno, I'm getting paranoid that I'm seeing it just because other people are pointing it out, but I'm definitely understand the "trying too hard vibe". I err on the side of caution, because 'too townie' is a definite fallacy and the area of "trying" and "being" pro-town does not seem to be an exact science. I can appreciate a strong defense, but until you (kirr) do some true scum hunting, you're just floundering. Some things I dislike,

Hmm, why, I wonder? What exactly happens when you're angry?

Is petty, antagonistic sniping. And

For voting for you? Well, because we think you are scum. Prove us otherwise.

is the "impossible to prove that you're town" conundrum that you pointed out earlier,

in reference to yourself

. Maybe this was on purpose to serve a point. I dunno. I'll watch with VERY guarded skepticism, but kirr puts me on edge.

And then CJMiller, who hasn't said anything but "votecount plz" since his ridiculous overreaction to me. So, you've shown that you're around, just not interested in helping the town. You're not even the active worthless that you see out of a zwet/emp type, but the scummy quiet worthless type that sets plenty of bells off. And at the risk of looking OMGUSssssssy, let's put you at 4 votes (7 to lynch):

vote: CJMiller

[Pablo Molinero]

Hrm. I am back from project-death for now. Huzzah.

CJ Miller vs. Kirroha feels like bussing to me.

How do you mean? Both as scum?

Good to see over9000 pick up the pace, too.

kirr, the speed at which you jumped off the kabe case right to popular CJ vote is just one of many similar leaps you've made in just 7 pages so far. I'm not a fan of this fast-and-loose reckless playstyle and and feels you're ust searching til you find something that sticks, kabe is making a lot of sense when noting the change in your attitudes just *flipping* at the drop of a hat. The only thing that saved you from my vote is that you only FoS'ed CJ after your unvote instead of immediately voting. The fairly useless OMGUSy vote from CJ makes you much more justified and further damns him. The defense of "I can't do anything that won't be made out to make me scum" is laughable.

to CJ:

If you really are town, please role claim - not sure why you did not do this in your posts above.

[Pablo Molinero]

I've been overwhelmed by homework this weekend

This. And a vig claim?

[Pablo Molinero]

Alright, homework/exam pain over for now, mafia can continue. Here’s my catch-up post from (more or less) when I left, so if I say anything irrelevant to the current discussion, I apologize.


Over9000

Wulfy, why are all of your votes on people nobody else is voting for?

Why is this relevant? Why should it matter that he’s thinking for himself?

kabe

Whether or not you think they are "good" the fact is that I made them, they count as scumhunting…

you say "They don't count because they aren't good." Which is bologna. Scumhunting is scumhunting

I think this is false. (Although I think your scumhunting has been good enough.) The principle of scumhunting is getting useful information. If you’re just looking busy and not saying a whole lot, well, you’re pretty high on the scumdar.

Percy

I understand that it's hard to go after lurkers. It's a lot easier to go after the talkative players - that's why lurking is a great scum strategy.

Bingo.

I say we let her live tonight. If she's scum, she'll get vigged*. If she's not, someone else will die, and we'll have verified her claim. If a scum gets shot, hooray! If town gets shot and there is no other kill, we lynch kirroha tomorrow as scum. If two town get shot, then kirroha will have to state her reasoning behind her kill exceptionally well tomorrow to avoid a lynch.

I agree with this. If she’s town, we shouldn’t be doing the mafia’s job for them with a power role, and if she (her replacement) is alive tomorrow, then she’s been pretty much disproven and deadscumwalking. Oh, and could a SK be a possibility? *barring something wacky.

I think the case against kabe because his earlier vote-motivations was kinda crap. He explained himself well, and I have nothing against fishing for reactions and he got some good results. It seems that any sort of persistence on kabe on this point would be hardheaded and worthless.

CJ

I AM TOWN.

Great. That was helpful. See how my vote stays on you? Effort, plz. Fark explained it fairly well.

Percy

You're at L-1. You maintain that you're there because you don't have the time to do anything but participate in a scummy and anti-town way.

L-2, but I'm all for putting more pressure on CJ.

Look out, semioldguy. I’ve seen that whole “ongoing games” rule bite the town in the ass before.

[Pablo Molinero]

Legit question: Does that end the day? or do unvotes before the deathscene go through?

[Pablo Molinero]

As much as it pains me to admit it, yesterday's result helps out CJ's town-case a whole lot. Wulfy, what arbitrary designations are you giving with the "basic vote analysis"? I don't agree with the idea that,

I think scum would have attempted to avoid voting with Kirr who was an obvious lynch by vote 2-3.

It seems to me that once Kirr was outed with the whole "requesting a replacement, still posting on the site" deal, late in the day, it would be in the best interest of scum to distance quickly. I'm not sure if scum would distance *that* quickly. Whether you're pointedly trying to draw attention away from yourself or not, I don't know, but it stands to reason that you and over_9000 were in that group.

[Pablo Molinero]

(Yes, I know I'm bandwagoning -- others that voted for Percy already posted my opinion.)

You know what I said about CJ-town? Yeah, partially shot to hell. At least pose some statements/questions so you can get into some sort of discussion. "Me too" isn't helping.

Over

Why do you speak of the town as if it's a separate entity from yourself? As if you yourself aren't a part of the town but are just stepping in and pretending?

To be fair, a bit of these arguments are stretching at best. I know I've been guilty of this, as town, on many an occasion.

Fark also voices opinion against either Over or Percy and the *very* next post, 2 hrs later, is Over jumping wholeheartedly against Percy and even reiterates a few of the earlier points. Jumps out as an action-reaction to me.

Over

And if I were trying to bus, don't you think I would have given some sort of reasoning for it to make myself seem more pro-town?

I would think it would be the other way. Cutting it off with an authoritative hammer before any more damage is done because scum-you knows Kirr will flip scum and gain you major points.

[Pablo Molinero]

So I'm scum for having the same opinion as someone else?

Sometimes it's inevitable or impossible for 2 out of 11 people to have differing opinions.

FoS: Pablo Molinero for 1984-esque restriction of free speech.

Nice strawman. Not at all what I said, but a great imaginary argument for you to tear down. Try again.

Over admits that his argument is reaching and "dabbles in WIFOM". I'm not going to put him at L-1 just yet, but I expressed my concerns in my last post and want to see how over answers for the nervous, shaky language of his last post.

[Pablo Molinero]

L-1. Man, we still have not heard from over since his disaster, and I ain't gonna hammer based on one pretty bad post. Claimzorz?

[Pablo Molinero]

_over9000 is either lurking (scummy) or not playing anymore (even scummier). He deserves the hammer.

Oh, CJ, thank you for confirming my suspicions. "Deserves"?! After a whole ONE post on a day that was little more than a page long at the time? Talk about depriving the town of material, particularly when the man hadn't even got to claim/defend himself. On top of that, the hypocrisy in hammering with little explanation is wonderful, when Over was getting grilled for the same damned thing. I know it wasn't you accusing him of this, because you won't find a whole lot in your posts, considering your whole argument was "I agree".

Feh.

unvote, vote: CJMiller

[Pablo Molinero]

Yayzorz

[Pablo Molinero]

I am the Bodyguard. Got everyone's roles up in Excel right now. Time to start breaking this ish down.

which leave Iam and Pablo as scum.

Um, enlighten us as to this thought process, plz, cuz it sounds like a real load if you got no reasoning, considering I had not even claimed yet.

[Pablo Molinero]

Here's an idea...

Fark, Percy, PM target Artem. Iam Jails Kab/Sotty, lynch the other. If there is no kill, and they all target Artem, PM is confirmed town, and town aren't down any. Obviously if anyone fails to target Artem they are scum. If there is a kill, and they do all target Artem, Iam is scum.

Thoughts? Does that work?

Well, it leaves you out of the equation. I appreciate that someone "knows" they're town, but you still need to confirm it to us.

I targeted Kabe both nights.

[Pablo Molinero]

Artem

kabe lynch today, Percy gives a bullet to sotty, sotty shoots me and Pablo protects me. If both are who they say they are, both will be dead and we get their cardflips.

If PM and I are alive and Sotty's dead, PM is the mafia doc.

IAM targets fark, Xtox targets IAM. If Xtox gets no result, IAM is confirmed.

We're then left with me, IAM, fark, xtox and Percy tomorrow.

Problem: aren't you neglecting the nightkill? If there are 2 scum left, there will be a triple nightkill (!) with your plan and 4 surviving members. If we don't hit scum in Sotty or kabe, mafia win. Xtoxm's plans sounds fairly solid. I'll think on it some more.

Why Kabe and why both nights?

Day 1 he was pivotal in the GF lynch and day 2 he was pretty nonexistent, easy lurker-kill.

[Pablo Molinero]

All of this seems awfully hinged on if Sotty is scum. If she isn't, where does it leave us? We have to prepare for all contingencies.

[Pablo Molinero]

What's wrong again with IAAUN jailkeeping Sotty and the rest of us targeting Artem (me protecting) for a confirmed list?

[Pablo Molinero]

Percy

-Sotty is a Ninja, so evades Xtomx's watch. However, they would still need to kill IAAUN, and they can't to afford to kill another suspect.

If they kill IAAUN, then thet's ends up being their nightkill, though, right? What's the hitch here?

Percy

-One of the scum is a hitman. Thus they can kill Artem, which will make Pablo look bad (in a WIFOM way).

Oh, I can appreciate this one, though, but that's a damned powerful role for a town like this.

iiaun

Sotty/Pablo
Artem/Percy
Fark/iam

(Ignoring your ridiculous commentary that has immediately made you shoot up my list...)

Maybe I'm just slow, but I'm having a hard time following this logic that so many possibilities are immediately stripped from the board with that one flip, it seems like you're trying to limit our scope in a disconcerting way. Why can it not be, say:

Sotty/iam
Sotty/Percy
Fark/Artem
Percy/iam
Pablo/...Anyone

?

[Pablo Molinero]

Iam said he jailed Fark N1, yes, but what's the conformation that Artem was blocked N1?

[Pablo Molinero]

I passed Artem a bullet N1, so he was blocked.

If he does not have a gun, will he be informed?

[Pablo Molinero]

He's a Self-Watcher. He should have received my name at the start of Day 2 on his list.

Right. This crap is hard to keep track of.

[Pablo Molinero]

And I *think* that's solid, X, but you guys have a better knack (obviously) for this than I do.

vote: kabe

[Pablo Molinero]

Well, for either plan for me it's protecting Artem, right?

[Pablo Molinero]

I was roleblocked. I tempted, also with X's post, to assume, based on the pairs everyone was throwing around:

Fark makes the kill, Iam "jails" (RBs) me.

But, just so I make sure I'm not going crazy, someone give me the one-more on why xtoxm is not under suspicion, plz? I got my spreadsheet up and what if Fark's only result was to throw any kind of suspicion off of a potential buddy? Subsequently, Xtoxm targets Fark as well N2. Isn't that still a possibility? He's acting awfully sure that the game is over. Just want to look at all the angles before I vote.

Also: What was your target/result, Xtoxm?

[Pablo Molinero]

Percy

Fark/Xtomx - Xtomx would have to be the Mafia RBer who blocked Artem on N1, as Fark was blocked by IAAUN. However, there was an NK, so that makes no sense.

Aha. Right.

[Pablo Molinero]

PM's lack of protecting Artem did seem suspicious to me.

You mean aside from me being RB'ed when we know there's a RB on the board?

[Pablo Molinero]

I was told nothing. I submitted the protection and that was it.

[Pablo Molinero]

Hell, my post got eaten by the Internets.

In short: Iam and Fark, just like the initial reaction. I've gone through the matrix of surviving players grid-by-grid, while not counting myself, and have not come up with anything but this pair. While iam's been vocal, I feel like it's just been because he's been caught. Simple a that. It seemed to me that iam was fishing for some kind of loophole desperately with your result-PM on Sotty.

[Pablo Molinero]

I hadn't finished my analysis yet of all the options. Now I have. Let's do this.

Vote: Fark

[Pablo Molinero]

Playstyles. Conversely, I've seen townies retreat, shut down, and stumble all over themselves as well.

[Pablo Molinero]

Yeah, go for it.

And whoo, my first as-mafia win! I'm glad I sent the kill on day 2, we really needed that. I was shocked that the possibility of me-RB, Sotty-Ninja was so quickly passed over, but I sure as hell wasn't gonna bring it up. Town played a great game, nailing one of us on D1 and had me near panicking the whole time. We caught a break with CJ and the quick D2 and fortunately the Sotty lynch fell apart. With some gentle prodding everything else fell into place after that. X did a great job getting himself out of a bad spot when he began and Artem claiming so early was certainly a thorn in our side.